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View Full Version : Bill Bray up...Matt Belisle down



Matt700wlw
08-11-2007, 02:07 PM
TRANSACTIONS: Prior to this afternoon's game the Reds optioned to Louisville RHP Matt Belisle and recalled from Louisville LHP Bill Bray (#45)...in last night's 11-inning, 12-7 loss vs SD the Reds used every pitcher in the bullpen...with Mon's off day, the Reds won't need a fifth starter until 8/18

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2007, 02:10 PM
Who will start in his place? Santos?

Something had to be done with Belisle. He just hasn't put it together and he's had a lot of chances this year (I believe he's given up the 2nd most HRs of any starting pitcher). I would've preferred seeing him go to the bullpen (which over a long period of time is a place I think he could be effective), but hard to fault this move.

Falls City Beer
08-11-2007, 02:15 PM
Belisle has his uses, but has been reliably awful for some time now.

KronoRed
08-11-2007, 02:22 PM
Bray returns, we will never lose again

Matt700wlw
08-11-2007, 02:23 PM
Guardado and Bray are back....now we see what a mad genius Wayne Krivsky really is

:)

KronoRed
08-11-2007, 02:24 PM
Belisle has his uses, but has been reliably awful for some time now.

So has a bunch of other guys out there, I'd rather keep seeing Belisle

mth123
08-11-2007, 02:31 PM
Interesting move but not one to complain much about. Glad to see Bray up and I want to see him pitching in Cincy until he completely fails. Hopefully he doesn't fail and becomes a reliable option in the pen for the next few years.

As for Belisle, the Reds pretty much know what they have by now and know that he's an ok (as in it could be a lot worse) fallback option in the 4 or 5 spot if no one better emerges. The Reds seem to be long on fallback options and short on guys emerging these days. I'm sure that options had something to do with this.

I still hold out hope that over the next few days that Stanton and his 2008 albatross deal can be moved to a desperate contender to make a roster spot for the eventual recall of a starter. Atlanta could be an option with Dotel now out.

dougdirt
08-11-2007, 02:43 PM
So we don't have a fifth starter right now?

KoryMac5
08-11-2007, 02:51 PM
Merely more roster jockeying by Wayne, Matt will be back up when he is eligible.

TOBTTReds
08-11-2007, 03:10 PM
Wow. Before it was Harang, Arroyo, pray for rain or an OK Belisle. Now it is AH, BA, and definitely pray for rain. Swell.

I do like Bray being up though. A pen next year of...

Bray
Coot
Burton
Salmon
Stormy
McBeth
Stanton/Maj/Coffey/Belisle (long man)/Santos (long)/Gosling (Loogy?)

That isn't too bad is it?

WVRedsFan
08-11-2007, 03:26 PM
Wow. Before it was Harang, Arroyo, pray for rain or an OK Belisle. Now it is AH, BA, and definitely pray for rain. Swell.

I do like Bray being up though. A pen next year of...

Bray
Coot
Burton
Salmon
Stormy
McBeth
Stanton/Maj/Coffey/Belisle (long man)/Santos (long)/Gosling (Loogy?)

That isn't too bad is it?

Define "too". :)

Patrick Bateman
08-11-2007, 04:16 PM
This better be a short term move.

For all of Belisle's faults, he is still easily the Reds' 3rd best option right now. It's not close. He's a decent back of the rotation option IMO, and just needs more time. If the Reds are expecting better results out of Dumatrait and the rest, then they are not going to be very happy.

Also I hope a switch to the bullpen is not being thought about. That only makes sense if you have 3-4 better options ready to step in. As it stands, the Reds don't have the starting pitching to not give him a longer chance.

Falls City Beer
08-11-2007, 04:18 PM
This better be a short term move.

For all of Belisle's faults, he is still easily the Reds' 3rd best option right now. It's not close. He's a decent back of the rotation option IMO, and just needs more time. If the Reds are expecting better results out of Dumatrait and the rest, then they are not going to be very happy.

I don't disagree that Belisle's nowhere near the worst pitcher on the staff. Consider that, though: he's bad, yet he's the third best pitcher on the staff.

PuffyPig
08-11-2007, 04:27 PM
Belisle has a DIPS ERA of 4.58.

That's about average for a #3 starter, and certainly better than what any of our other candidates will do.

Patrick Bateman
08-11-2007, 04:30 PM
I don't disagree that Belisle's nowhere near the worst pitcher on the staff. Consider that, though: he's bad, yet he's the third best pitcher on the staff.

Of course. Belisle is a pretty poor choice as any team's 3rd starter. Still, IMO he's pitched far better than his numbers indicate, and considering the team's defense and park, it's easy to see how that can happen.

I'm not saying he's Cy Young. But he is pretty young, cheap, and half way decent. That's an attractive package to a small market team like the Reds. He's a guy I'd like to see in the 4/5th slot in the rotation for the next 2-3 seasons.

If they could find better pitchers I would have no problem with switching Belisle's roles and sending him down, but there are no better options. The Reds need to know that in GABP, with an awful defense, that pitchers numbers are going to get ugly sometimes. Given time, I think Belisle would show people that he can stick at the back of the rotation. The Reds don't have the starting options to dick around with Belisle.

Mario-Rijo
08-11-2007, 04:49 PM
Just heard Mack on with Marty he made it sound as if Belisle has it all and it's just a matter of fine tuning his command. I wouldn't expect him to be gone long.

Falls City Beer
08-11-2007, 04:58 PM
Of course. Belisle is a pretty poor choice as any team's 3rd starter. Still, IMO he's pitched far better than his numbers indicate, and considering the team's defense and park, it's easy to see how that can happen.

I'm not saying he's Cy Young. But he is pretty young, cheap, and half way decent. That's an attractive package to a small market team like the Reds. He's a guy I'd like to see in the 4/5th slot in the rotation for the next 2-3 seasons.

If they could find better pitchers I would have no problem with switching Belisle's roles and sending him down, but there are no better options. The Reds need to know that in GABP, with an awful defense, that pitchers numbers are going to get ugly sometimes. Given time, I think Belisle would show people that he can stick at the back of the rotation. The Reds don't have the starting options to dick around with Belisle.

Belisle's a flyball pitcher (or I should say, he's become one this season). So defense doesn't impact him as much as some guys. But yeah, GABP is going to hurt Belisle--he doesn't mind surrendering flyballs that travel good distances. What Matt does have working for him is that he Ks people.

I wouldn't have sent him down either by the way, but it's tough to deny, that, taken out of the context of the rest of the team, he's been horrendous for about a month.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2007, 05:03 PM
This better be a short term move.

For all of Belisle's faults, he is still easily the Reds' 3rd best option right now. It's not close. He's a decent back of the rotation option IMO, and just needs more time. If the Reds are expecting better results out of Dumatrait and the rest, then they are not going to be very happy.

Also I hope a switch to the bullpen is not being thought about. That only makes sense if you have 3-4 better options ready to step in. As it stands, the Reds don't have the starting pitching to not give him a longer chance.

I feel like he's had quite a bit of time to prove something and has fallen pretty short. I wouldn't say I'm at the point that I'd give up on the guy or anything, but he's definitely had a fair shake and has not really been very good, particularly his last 6-7 starts.

Kc61
08-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Belisle has the highest BAA, .308, of any National League starter with 100 innings or more. I am excluding David Wells who had a worse BAA but was DFA'd. Belisle tied for fourth most total bases allowed in the National League, and the guys with more all have pitched more innings. Belisle's OPS allowed is .840, fourth worst of all NL starters with 100 innings.

I know he can hit 94 with his fastball, but no team can win with a performance like this every five days. This move had to be made.

As for Belisle's spot, I think Bailey will be back with the Reds next week, as I heard on the radio this afternoon. It's time to give Dumatrait and Livingston an extended look and, if he's ready, Bailey again. Enough.

Matt700wlw
08-11-2007, 05:16 PM
As for Belisle's spot, I think Bailey will be back with the Reds next week, as I heard on the radio this afternoon. It's time to give Dumatrait and Livingston an extended look and, if he's ready, Bailey again. Enough.

Some will disagree....Some feel it's too much for him right now. Some also say there's not point in a LOST season letting him learn in the big leagues (which I don't get)

I am not one of those people. When he's ready, health-wise, I want him back up here.

Kc61
08-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Some will disagree....Some feel it's too much for him right now. Some also say there's not point in a LOST season letting him learn in the big leagues (which I don't get)

I am not one of those people. When he's ready, health-wise, I want him back up here.

I don't know whether Bailey's injury was hurting his pitching, I don't know if he's ready. But whomever the Reds pick for the fifth spot, it was time for Belisle to go down to Louisville.

I'm anxious to see Belisle do well at AAA. He's still young enough. Let him dominate down there for awhile, then return (if he does). Meantime, let them use someone else for the rest of this year.

RedLegSuperStar
08-11-2007, 05:47 PM
5th Starter??

MLBTradeRumors.com -


Casey Fossum's been released by the Devil Rays; he'll hook on somewhere. The little lefty used to throw in the mid-90s with Boston. Not so much anymore, but he does boast one of the slowest curveballs you'll find (slower than 50 mph). Back in '03, the Red Sox offered him to Toronto for Kelvim Escobar, unwilling to give up Trot Nixon. He eventually went to Arizona in the Curt Schilling deal and later was traded to the Devil Rays for Jose Cruz Jr. Fossum's battled shoulder woes for most of his career, having labrum surgery in '06. He's still only 29.

Reds1
08-11-2007, 06:11 PM
Belise would be a quality 5th started, but not a great 3. He's got good stuff just a flyball HR guy and maybe not the best for GABP, but this is where he is. He'll be back ASAP. The pen is just dead, but Livingston right now is coming up big and maybe we lost a good one in Germano! Who did we get for that guy anyways!

Patrick Bateman
08-11-2007, 07:38 PM
I don't know whether Bailey's injury was hurting his pitching, I don't know if he's ready. But whomever the Reds pick for the fifth spot, it was time for Belisle to go down to Louisville.

I'm anxious to see Belisle do well at AAA. He's still young enough. Let him dominate down there for awhile, then return (if he does). Meantime, let them use someone else for the rest of this year.

Look, I'm not saying he's been pitching well, but he's 10 times better than the alternatives. The guys replacing Belisle couldn't get AAA hitters out. Based on Dumatrait's AAA numbers, and his first 2 major league starts, he is going to be tremendously awful. You'll be wishing you had Belisle's 5.40 ERA back. It only makes sense to send Belisle down if there are alternatives knocking on the door to be semi-effective starters. The Reds don't have those.


Belisle has the highest BAA, .308, of any National League starter with 100 innings or more. I am excluding David Wells who had a worse BAA but was DFA'd. Belisle tied for fourth most total bases allowed in the National League, and the guys with more all have pitched more innings. Belisle's OPS allowed is .840, fourth worst of all NL starters with 100 innings.

Some of this stuff isn't a very good indicator. With the Reds bad defense (he's not that extreme a flyball pitcher) and the park he plays in makes his numbers look far worse than he really is. All things equal, he sports a FIP of 4.58 which I think is a pretty good estimate for him. He generally has good command of the strike zone, and doesn'y really possess great stuff to punch out lots of hitters. He has the ability to be a useful starter

If Belisle is sent down for a start or two, then this move won't really matter. As FCB said, he has been bad lately regardless of what metric you are looking at. Maybe a pit stop in AAA will do him some good. But he needs to be up eventually. Easily deserves a rotation spot on this team. Guys like Dumatrait have not earned an extended look in the majors. The Reds should be trying to limit his innings as much as possible.

Anyways, I'm pleased Bray is finally up. I have no clue what the Reds have been waiting for. I think he may actually be our best reliever (if not probably the 2nd best right now).

Ltlabner
08-11-2007, 08:37 PM
So does this move hint at a trade/deal for a pitcher?

Or that simply Homer will be back up?

Or.....(shudder)...Santos will get a start?

traderumor
08-11-2007, 09:28 PM
I think Belisle's main problem is underusing his curve. Whose fault that is, I do not know, but in the starts that I have seen, his gopher ball tendencies come from giving in late in the count with high "I don't want to lose this guy" fastballs instead of having confidence in his curve.

Unassisted
08-11-2007, 10:43 PM
I was at the game tonight for Bray's first outing. Admittedly I haven't seen him in person before, but his delivery looked forced. It looked like he was overthrowing everything. Obviously he gave up more runs than any other pitcher in tonight's game, so the results were rocky. I doubt that Bray will be around with the Reds for long if this is how he's pitching now.

Falls City Beer
08-11-2007, 11:06 PM
According to the box score Bray gave up 1 hit, no runs and pitched 2/3 of an inning.

Unassisted
08-11-2007, 11:13 PM
According to the box score Bray gave up 1 hit, no runs and pitched 2/3 of an inning.

I was thinking that Bray gave up the 2-run HR. I see now that was Livingston. The balls that were hit off of Bray were hit hard, but 2/3 of them were caught.

Eric_Davis
08-12-2007, 04:55 AM
Belisle made some improvements this year.

He's stretched out his arm as a starter after being a reliever the last 2 years, by tripling the number of innings he has thrown compared to last year, and adding 40 innings more than the total number of innings pitched over the last two years.

He pitched only 56 innings last year, 40 in the Majors with only 2 starts.
He pitched only 85 innings in 2005, all in the Majors with only 5 starts.

He cut his walk rate per nine innings down from 4.28 last year to 2.08 this year while maintaining his strikeout rate (5.85 last year to 6.02 this year).

While on his way to finishing the season with 27-29 starts and between 160-170 innings while never being injured, he'll have a chance at the age of 27 next year when the season begins to use that new arm strength, control, and strikeout ability to take another step up in his maturity.

He has a really good chance to contribute next year better than he did this year. He'll turn 28 June 6th. Gemini's are moody anyway. You never know what you're going to get out of them.

GAC
08-12-2007, 09:29 AM
Belisle has his uses, but has been reliably awful for some time now.


I believe it's in the bullpen (if anything). Unfortunately, he reminds me very much of Chris Retisma..... up and down, at times dominate, very inconsistent, and it appears doesn't trust his own stuff and doesn't challenge the hitters.

REDREAD
08-12-2007, 07:25 PM
It would be great if the Reds could somehow acquire enough talent so they wouldn't have to use Belisle as a starter next year. I don't see that happening though.

I think it's a good idea to send him to AAA, and try to get him to improve there. Like it or not, we're going to need to use this guy a lot in the short term.. as someone pointed out, due to our lack of depth, he's one of the better options we have.

This offseason, the Reds desparately need to sign or trade for a Marquis/Lily type to add some depth to the rotation.

bucksfan2
08-13-2007, 09:46 AM
Belisle has been a fan favorite over here. I think he has shown some signs of being a good pitcher but he has also imploded. I think he needs to become a more consistant pitcher to find a spot in the rotatoin.

nate
08-13-2007, 10:00 AM
Belisle has been a fan favorite over here. I think he has shown some signs of being a good pitcher but he has also imploded. I think he needs to become a more consistently good pitcher to find a spot in the rotatoin.

Fixed that for ya!