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RedLegSuperStar
08-15-2007, 10:00 PM
ESPN.com -


Griffey says that was last time he gets replaced

CHICAGO -- If Cincinnati Reds slugger Ken Griffey Jr. has his way, he won't be involved in another double switch.

Griffey was replaced on defense during a double switch in the eighth inning of Tuesday's 6-5 win over the Chicago Cubs. Griffey, who has won 10 Gold Gloves, was surprised by Reds interim manager Pete Mackanin's decision.

"It was the first [time in my career] and it will be the last," he said before Wednesday's game against the Cubs.

Griffey, who ranks sixth on the career list with 590 career home runs, is hitting .274 with 27 home runs and 74 RBIs.

Griffey Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2976559)

Matt700wlw
08-15-2007, 10:01 PM
It's not the last time he's replaced if that manager decides it's not.


Don't start with the prima donna stuff, Griffey. You may be upset, that's fine...but it's not your call.

redsfan30
08-15-2007, 10:03 PM
I was dumbfounded when it happened.

Matt700wlw
08-15-2007, 10:05 PM
I was dumbfounded when it happened.

I was a thrown off, but that's not the point....whether we agree with it or not, it's the manager's decision and not the player's

GAC
08-15-2007, 10:07 PM
These are issues that should be settled in close doors with the manager... and not with the media who loves stuff like this.

But what is Jr gonna do if he does it again? Demand a trade? Or is he gonna give us a Larkin speech about how it's all about respect? http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/whacky115.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

KoryMac5
08-15-2007, 10:12 PM
We on RedsZone are very frustrated nightly with this team. I can only imagine what some players are feeling like after a long season. I am sure this was JR's breaking point. I do agree that their is a place to air these feelings and the media is not the proper forum. Jr is the 2nd Red who has been upset with one of Mack's defensive substitutions, I'm sure he won't be the last.

GAC
08-15-2007, 10:21 PM
But was Mack wrong to do it? Why? Because he was dealing with a 10 time GGer and R-E-S-P-E-C-T is the foremost issue and not trying to strengthen your team defensively while holding on to a tenuous 1 run lead late in the game?

I'm not gonna fault a manager in these particular situations - his job is to win the game, not kiss the butt (coddle the ego) of veteran players.

This, IMHO, is just simply more of Jr, like he did last year when approached with moving from CF, being in denial about his declining defensive abilities.

edabbs44
08-15-2007, 10:30 PM
No need for the drama. Keep it in house, Jr.


"It was the first [time in my career] and it will be the last,"

This is the worst part. What's with the ultimatum? Sorry, because I have a lot of respect for this guy, but that's BS. Plain and simple.

Matt700wlw
08-15-2007, 10:33 PM
Griffey doesn't want to start the media spatting....he can't win that fight. He, of all people, should know that.

cincrazy
08-15-2007, 10:39 PM
That's one of the main reasons this team is awful. Because the team's leadership makes comments like that. I love Griffey, Jr. to death, but that's an immature comment from a Hall of Famer, he should have known better. The leadership void on this team is startling.

flyer85
08-15-2007, 10:40 PM
I was dumbfounded when it happened.I expected it with Jr making the last out and Weathers coming in in the 8th.

Jr, quit being a jerk, it made sense at the time.

IslandRed
08-15-2007, 10:42 PM
I'm not gonna fault a manager in these particular situations - his job is to win the game, not kiss the butt (coddle the ego) of veteran players.

Managing people is just as big a part of the job as managing games.

Maybe Mack figures he's not going to get the permanent job and it doesn't matter if he ticks off the team's best players. Maybe they're trying to send a message by treating him as a disposable part for the sake of winning a meaningless game. Or maybe they're trying to make Junior mad enough that he'll waive 10/5 to go anywhere. I don't know. I agree that Griffey should have kept it behind closed doors. (Then again, maybe he did but didn't like the answer he got. Still should have kept it to himself.)

Big Klu
08-15-2007, 10:48 PM
The point behind making the double switch was to move David Weathers' spot in the order as far from actually coming to the plate as possible. The last thing the Reds wanted was for Weathers (in the #9 spot) to come up in the top of the ninth in a situation where the Reds could score some more runs. The last player to bat in the top of the eighth (and therefore the most likely candidate to be double-switched) was Brandon Phillips, but the Reds didn't have a backup infielder last night. That left Griffey as the next-to-last spot. So he was the "lucky" player who got switched out. The Reds couldn't switch out Keppinger (one spot ahead of Griffey) for the same reason they couldn't switch out Phillips. Taking Hamilton out in the double switch would only gain one position in the batting order for Weathers, so that wouldn't make much sense, either.

Griffey's feelings might be hurt, but he needs to understand that it was a strategic move, and nothing personal.

RedFanAlways1966
08-15-2007, 10:53 PM
And then I wonder... would Junior have gotten back in time to make the catch for the last out at the base of the wall in RF? Or does the ball hit the wall for a double and a tie score?

Just crossed my mind. No offense to Junior and his defense or speed. :)

JaxRed
08-15-2007, 10:56 PM
Mackanin continues to impress me. (and that is not sarcasm or a slam of Griffey)

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2007, 11:33 PM
It's just typical of "the leaders" this team has had, they simply care more about their ego than the success of the team. I have implied it and outright said it before Griffey is this team's leader regardless of what people think just because he is Ken Griffey Jr future HOF, and that is one of the major reasons we continue to lose.

osuceltic
08-15-2007, 11:35 PM
It's just typical of "the leaders" this team has had, they simply care more about their ego than the success of the team. I have implied it and outright said it before Griffey is this team's leader regardless of what people think just because he is Ken Griffey Jr future HOF, and that is one of the major reasons we continue to lose.

A-freaking-MEN. It started the day he arrived in Cincinnati. Two sets of rules, expecting certain behavior from 23 guys and different behavior from Junior and his buddy(ies). That stuff wears on a team. Eventually, this team just took on the worst traits of its leaders.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-15-2007, 11:40 PM
Just another reason that I'm proud to be Pete Mackanin's campaign manager for 2008.

KoryMac5
08-15-2007, 11:41 PM
It's just typical of "the leaders" this team has had, they simply care more about their ego than the success of the team. I have implied it and outright said it before Griffey is this team's leader regardless of what people think just because he is Ken Griffey Jr future HOF, and that is one of the major reasons we continue to lose.

I think JR not wanting to come out of a game shows just how badly he wants to win. It is his handling of the situation that makes him a loser in this instance. What happens in the clubhouse should stay in the clubhouse. I do feel though this team has many more reasons for losing than JR not wanting to come out of a game. Bullpen, No 3, 4, 5 starters, Bad Mgmt decisions, etc... Plus JR isn't the only veteran capable of leadership on this team.

edabbs44
08-15-2007, 11:42 PM
Just another reason that I'm proud to be Pete Mackanin's campaign manager for 2008.

The real test is what happens next time the situation presents itself.

I'm also curious to see what Pete says when asked after the game.

flyer85
08-15-2007, 11:44 PM
The real test is what happens next time the situation presents itself.
exactly, the gauntlet has been thrown down

Matt700wlw
08-15-2007, 11:46 PM
exactly, the gauntlet has been thrown down

We know how Narron handled it....

He's not here anymore, and that situation didn't help his cause.

MWM
08-15-2007, 11:49 PM
It's just typical of "the leaders" this team has had, they simply care more about their ego than the success of the team. I have implied it and outright said it before Griffey is this team's leader regardless of what people think just because he is Ken Griffey Jr future HOF, and that is one of the major reasons we continue to lose.

Hogwash!

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2007, 11:52 PM
I think JR not wanting to come out of a game shows just how badly he wants to win. It is his handling of the situation that makes him a loser in this instance. What happens in the clubhouse should stay in the clubhouse. I do feel though this team has many more reasons for losing than JR not wanting to come out of a game. Bullpen, No 3, 4, 5 starters, Bad Mgmt decisions, etc... Plus JR isn't the only veteran capable of leadership on this team.

He felt slighted that he was removed for a defensive replacement, yeah it sucks that your defensive prowess or lack thereof has now been questioned in a round of about way. But the truth is as well as he has played out there this season he is still a below average RF.

Would he have made the play, sure he probably would have but it was besides the point as Klu pointed out it was a strategic move to keep in the pitcher longer, Griffey didn't care about that, only his ego.

Guys like that take the focus off of winning, and put it somewhere other than the front burner. Sure he is a great guy off the field and so was Casey but neither of them has/was/is truly helping us win anything of significance.

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2007, 11:54 PM
Hogwash!

No it ain't, bad leadership both in the front office and on the field contribute to bad baseball teams!

dougdirt
08-15-2007, 11:55 PM
Yes, Griffey is the reason the Reds lose.

Not the fact that our bullpen sucks, Jeff Conine bats clean up or that Freel and Hopper have hit leadoff most of the year despite a combined sub .330 OBP.

Its Griffeys attitude that brings this team down.

Patrick Bateman
08-15-2007, 11:56 PM
No it ain't, bad leadership both in the front office and on the field contribute to bad baseball teams!

I would say lack of talent on the field is the main reason. That may be as a result of bad managment from the front office, but if the Reds had the talent, Griffey's "attitude problems" would not even be discussed here.

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2007, 11:57 PM
Yes, Griffey is the reason the Reds lose.

Not the fact that our bullpen sucks, Jeff Conine bats clean up or that Freel and Hopper have hit leadoff most of the year despite a combined sub .330 OBP.

Its Griffeys attitude that brings this team down.

Now you are putting words in my mouth, nobody said it was exclusively his fault.

WVRedsFan
08-15-2007, 11:57 PM
Guys like that take the focus off of winning, and put it somewhere other than the front burner. Sure he is a great guy off the field and so was Casey but neither of them has/was/is truly helping us win anything of significance.

Hmmm.

75 RBIs and 27 HR, consistently on base. Yep, he's worthless. He and Casey were players of the same caliber. Yep.

The venom for Junior just goes on and on. He does not deserve this. Yes, he should have kept his mouth shut, but the first little thing and he becomes worthless.

Mario-Rijo
08-15-2007, 11:58 PM
I would say lack of talent on the field is the main reason. That may be as a result of bad managment from the front office, but if the Reds had the talent, Griffey's "attitude problems" would not even be discussed here.

I disagree, then we would be wondering what the missing ingredient is that is keeping us from being in the playoffs to advancing in them or from advancing to dominating etc.

MWM
08-15-2007, 11:59 PM
No it ain't, bad leadership both in the front office and on the field contribute to bad baseball teams!

It's really not that hard. They continue to lose because they don't have good enough players to win. The teams that have better records have better players. It really is that simple. All this other stuff is pure nonsense. I don't discredit that stuff completely, but it can be the difference between a good team finishing strong and getting into the playoffs and another good team falling just short. For bad teams like the Reds, it really doesn't matter at all.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:00 AM
Now you are putting words in my mouth, nobody said it was exclusively his fault.

You're right, you only said it was "the major reason."

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:00 AM
Hmmm.

75 RBIs and 27 HR, consistently on base. Yep, he's worthless. He and Casey were players of the same caliber. Yep.

The venom for Junior just goes on and on. He does not deserve this. Yes, he should have kept his mouth shut, but the first little thing and he becomes worthless.

Yeah keep twisting my words to make your argument, it will eventually sound like I had no right to question his motives and that he is the sole reason we are winning.....ah.......yeah absolutely nothing and never have with him and his stats on the field.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:01 AM
You're right, you only said it was "the major reason."

No in fact I said it was ONE of the major reasons!

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 12:02 AM
It's really not that hard. They continue to lose because they don't have good enough players to win. The teams that have better records have better players. It really is that simple. All this other stuff is pure nonsense. I don't discredit that stuff completely, but it can be the difference between a good team finishing strong and getting into the playoffs and another good team falling just short. For bad teams like the Reds, it really doesn't matter at all.

I agree.

The way I have always looked at it is, that talent is the difference between 70 and 90 wins, while hustling/attitude/etc. is the difference between 70 and 73 wins.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:02 AM
No in fact I said it was ONE of the major reasons!

Ah, my bad.

dougdirt
08-16-2007, 12:03 AM
No in fact I said it was ONE of the major reasons!

But its not. Bad players are the major reason. One can only lead little talent so far, period.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:04 AM
I agree.

The way I have always looked at it is, that talent is the difference between 70 and 90 wins, while hustling/attitude/etc. is the difference between 70 and 73 wins.

Guys who are established as future HOF's get followers. You want all those followers having that same attitude?

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 12:06 AM
Guys who are established as future HOF's get followers. You want all those followers having that same attitude?

The result of what you are suggesting is really unquanifiable.

Of course you want players huslting and being team players, but to me that is simply complimentary to talent.

MartyFan
08-16-2007, 12:06 AM
That's one of the main reasons this team is awful. Because the team's leadership makes comments like that. I love Griffey, Jr. to death, but that's an immature comment from a Hall of Famer, he should have known better. The leadership void on this team is startling.

comments like that are reasons why He and Dunn will never be leaders on a team...they are great individual players but they are not leaders.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:07 AM
But its not. Bad players are the major reason. One can only lead little talent so far, period.

This is true but my whole point is that with leaders like that you will never go very far. And we do have a lot of youth on the way, and I for one don't want those good players to have influences like that to deal with.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:08 AM
Guys who are established as future HOF's get followers. You want all those followers having that same attitude?

Hell, I think the idea that Griffey has a bad attitude is nonsense as well. By all accounts from every teammate he's ever had, save Pokey and Dmitri, have had nothing but praise for him as a teammate.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:10 AM
The result of what you are suggesting is really unquanifiable.

Of course you want players huslting and being team players, but to me that is simply complimentary to talent.

Talent without direction might as well be talentless, they will be both end up going nowhere special. I don't know it's necc just complimentary.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:12 AM
Hell, I think the idea that Griffey has a bad attitude is nonsense as well. By all accounts from every teammate he's ever had, save Pokey and Dmitri, have had nothing but praise for him as a teammate.

I think it's not so much a bad attitude not just an exemplary one.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:13 AM
Talent without direction might as well be talentless, they will be both end up going nowhere special. I don't know it's necc just complimentary.

Well, if this is so common, let's have some examples of supremely talented teams that turned out to be bad teams.

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 12:13 AM
Talent without direction might as well be talentless, they will be both end up going nowhere special. I don't know it's necc just complimentary.

I don't know. I can't recall seeing an especially talented team undone by attitude.

Anyways, I think Griffey is a great team player. As usual, that quote was probably taken out of context.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:15 AM
It happens all the time by teams that are "favorites" to win this or that and they don't win? It could be a host of different things one being, not being winners.

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 12:16 AM
It happens all the time by teams that are "favorites" to win this or that and they don't win? It could be a host of different things one being, not being winners.

Such as....

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:17 AM
It happens all the time by teams that are "favorites" to win this or that and they don't win? It could be a host of different things one being, not being winners.

Well, if it happens all the time, you shouldn't have any problem naming 5 or 6.

KoryMac5
08-16-2007, 12:18 AM
I disagree, then we would be wondering what the missing ingredient is that is keeping us from being in the playoffs to advancing in them or from advancing to dominating etc.

I think it is pretty plain to see what the missing ingredients are on this team. They are painfully obvious as I listen to the game on XM radio. If you are going to call out JR than you better be prepared to call out a few more.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:19 AM
Well, if it happens all the time, you shouldn't have any problem naming 5 or 6.

Take your pick!

How about the 1990 Reds beating the "favorites" Pittsburgh and Oakland. The favorites were both considered to be more talented. Neither of them won anything and in fact got smoked by a team of winners!

dougdirt
08-16-2007, 12:19 AM
This is true but my whole point is that with leaders like that you will never go very far. And we do have a lot of youth on the way, and I for one don't want those good players to have influences like that to deal with.

If you dont have talent it doesnt matter who is leading your team, you arent going anywhere. If you have talent, you will go places. 'Leadership' is overrated to an extent. Talent wins in the end.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:20 AM
If you dont have talent it doesnt matter who is leading your team, you arent going anywhere. If you have talent, you will go places. 'Leadership' is overrated to an extent. Talent wins in the end.

Not always. All things being equal the team with the right attitude wins out hands down.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:22 AM
Take your pick!

How about the 1990 Reds beating the "favorites" Pittsburgh and Oakland. The favorites were both considered to be more talented. Neither of them won anything and in fact got smoked by a team of winners!


Come on, dude. You're going to pick the performance of a team in a 5 or 7 game series to prove your point? How is is that a team lacking in leadership can win the World Series the year before and win 103 games and dominate the ALCS in that year? All that is erased based on 4 games when they faced an incredibly hot team? You're not doing your POV any favors here.

dougdirt
08-16-2007, 12:23 AM
Take your pick!

How about the 1990 Reds beating the "favorites" Pittsburgh and Oakland. The favorites were both considered to be more talented. Neither of them won anything and in fact got smoked by a team of winners!

Pittsburgh won 2 games of that series, and 4 of the 6 games in that series were decided by 1 run. I dont think that constitutes being 'smoked'.

I also don't know if either of those teams were more talented than the Reds. They may have had bigger names on their teams, but top to bottom were they more talented?

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:24 AM
Not always. All things being equal the team with the right attitude wins out hands down.

That's kinda the point other folks are trying to make. Rarely are "all things equal." Besides, I don't agree with your premise to begin with. I would say it's very rare that attitude is the difference between two good teams.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:24 AM
Come on, dude. You're going to pick the performance of a team in a 5 or 7 game series to prove your point? How is is that a team lacking in leadership can win the World Series the year before and win 103 games and dominate the ALCS in that year? All that is erased based on 4 games when they faced an incredibly hot team? You're not doing your POV any favors here.

Well what do you consider a big enough sample size, where does it end and who is to say that those Reds won strictly because they were hot.

dougdirt
08-16-2007, 12:25 AM
Not always. All things being equal the team with the right attitude wins out hands down.

Sure, if we had a cloning machine and could clone the players and have two of the exact same team, then have a few guys cheat on other players wives on one team and not on the other team I would imagine the team with no problems would win. However the problem is that there are hardly ever two teams with the same level of talent. The Reds have a lot less talent than most teams.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:26 AM
Well what do you consider a big enough sample size, where does it end and who is to say that those Reds won strictly because they were hot.

Well, certainly the sample has to be bigger than 4 games. I'd say the previous season culminating in a World Series and a 103 win season coupled by a dominant ALCS should weigh a little more heavily than 4 games where just about everything went right for the Reds.

I'm talking about a supremely talented team that wound up with a losing record over a season or two.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:28 AM
That's kinda the point other folks are trying to make. Rarely are "all things equal." Besides, I don't agree with your premise to begin with. I would say it's very rare that attitude is the difference between two good teams.

Whatever, you have your opinion and have mine. All I'm saying is I will take a slightly lesser talented team with the desire to do whatever it takes to win a game and beat a more talented team who isn't willing to do what it takes and beat the snot out of those other guys all the time.

And Griffey is a guy who IMO isn't always willing to do what it takes to win. I don't want that guy influencing everyone/anyone in my organization.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:30 AM
And Griffey is a guy who IMO isn't always willing to do what it takes to win.

I'm not sure how to respond to this without getting booted from the board. So I'll just refrain. :evil:

Cyclone792
08-16-2007, 12:31 AM
If attitude and leadership means so much, then I'm wondering how the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals managed to win the World Series when their star third baseman and team manager weren't on speaking terms. Surely if attitude plays such a huge role, then Scott Rolen's relationship with Tony LaRussa would have sank the Cardinals, right?

One of my all-time favorite anecdotes about team leadership and attitude actually occurred 100 years ago. The 1906 Chicago Cubs went 116-36 with a double play combo of Johnny Evers and Joe Tinker that hated each other. Those same Cubs then proceeded to lose in six games to the White Sox in the World Series. I guess that bad relationship between Evers and Tinker destroyed the team in the 1906 World Series ...

Except that in 1907 and 1908 with Evers and Tinker still manning their middle infield slots and still hating each other, the Cubs went 107-45 and 99-55, respectively, then proceeded to lay the hammer down on the Tigers in the World Series each season.

So much for team attitude destroying a team.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:32 AM
I'm not sure how to respond to this without getting booted from the board. So I'll just refrain. :evil:

Wow! I cannot believe you wanna cuss me or whatever it is you are thinking for that. It's simply an opinion and one in which he has proved it or else we wouldn't be sitting here arguing if he hadn't broached the subject so to speak.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:34 AM
If attitude and leadership means so much, then I'm wondering how the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals managed to win the World Series when their star third baseman and team manager weren't on speaking terms. Surely if attitude plays such a huge role, then Scott Rolen's relationship with Tony LaRussa would have sank the Cardinals, right?

One of my all-time favorite anecdotes about team leadership and attitude actually occurred 100 years ago. The 1906 Chicago Cubs went 116-36 with a double play combo of Johnny Evers and Joe Tinker that hated each other. Those same Cubs then proceeded to lose in six games to the White Sox in the World Series. I guess that bad relationship between Evers and Tinker destroyed the team in the 1906 World Series ...

Except that in 1907 and 1908 with Evers and Tinker still manning their middle infield slots and still hating each other, the Cubs went 107-45 and 99-55, respectively, then proceeded to lay the hammer down on the Tigers in the World Series each season.

So much for team attitude destroying a team.

Not really as it just proves my point that winners will put personal feelings/ego aside for the good of the team. That is what winners do.

IslandRed
08-16-2007, 12:35 AM
Griffey's feelings might be hurt, but he needs to understand that it was a strategic move, and nothing personal.

It was a strategic move and nothing personal. On that I agree.

On another level, it's impossible not to take personally. Griffey's been a star his entire career. Stars don't get double-switched out of tight ballgames. They just don't. There's no way he's not going to draw unflattering conclusions from it. He shouldn't have commented to the media, but he's a competitor and I wouldn't expect him to be happy about being yanked.

KoryMac5
08-16-2007, 12:35 AM
Whatever, you have your opinion and have mine. All I'm saying is I will take a slightly lesser talented team with the desire to do whatever it takes to win a game and beat a more talented team who isn't willing to do what it takes and beat the snot out of those other guys all the time.

And Griffey is a guy who IMO isn't always willing to do what it takes to win. I don't want that guy influencing everyone/anyone in my organization.

I guess having a ground breaking surgery to screw your hamstring back into the bone isn't doing what it takes to influence the younger guys on the club. You don't have to be a rah rah guy to have some positive influence on the younger players that will arrive in the next couple of years. I have seen and heard many a story of JR taking extra batting practice and getting to the stadium early.

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 12:36 AM
Wow! I cannot believe you wanna cuss me or whatever it is you are thinking for that. It's simply an opinion and one in which he has proved it or else we wouldn't be sitting here arguing if he hadn't broached the subject so to speak.

Really? As far as I'm concerned, Griffey has been a model citizen in Cincy. Taking a 10M/year discount to become a Red was pretty solid.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:37 AM
It's an incontrovertible opinion. Every team that wins has a great attitude and it full of players that do what it takes to win. Every talented team that winds up not winning is full of players with bad attitudes who are too egocentric to want to win. It's 100% foolproof. Nothing anyone can say can contradict it. Forget the fact that it's damned hard to win anything. Only 1 of 30 teams wins the Word Series each year. Must be the team with the best attitude because all the teams making the playoffs are talented.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 12:37 AM
It was a strategic move and nothing personal. On that I agree.

On another level, it's impossible not to take personally. Griffey's been a star his entire career. Stars don't get double-switched out of tight ballgames. They just don't. There's no way he's not going to draw unflattering conclusions from it. He shouldn't have commented to the media, but he's a competitor and I wouldn't expect him to be happy about being yanked.

I guess I'm wrong! I'm done before this get's out of hand, I have given my opinion on the subject.

flyer85
08-16-2007, 12:41 AM
Reds aren't losing because of Jr being a prima donna with a large ego(I would think everyone would have figured that out a long time ago), they lose because of a severe talent shortage on the roster.

dougdirt
08-16-2007, 12:43 AM
Whatever, you have your opinion and have mine. All I'm saying is I will take a slightly lesser talented team with the desire to do whatever it takes to win a game and beat a more talented team who isn't willing to do what it takes and beat the snot out of those other guys all the time.

And Griffey is a guy who IMO isn't always willing to do what it takes to win. I don't want that guy influencing everyone/anyone in my organization.

Griffey has rehabbed back from so many injuries that I think its utterly ridiculous to think he isn't willing to do what it takes to win.

MWM
08-16-2007, 12:45 AM
Griffey has rehabbed back from so many injuries that I think its utterly ridiculous to think he isn't willing to do what it takes to win.

Seriously. Add to the fact that he has more money than he'll ever need.

Cyclone792
08-16-2007, 12:47 AM
Not really as it just proves my point that winners will put personal feelings/ego aside for the good of the team. That is what winners do.

Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby were pricks. Jimmie Foxx and Mickey Mantle were alcoholics. Babe Ruth was a womanizer. Wade Boggs had a mistress during a large portion of his playing career. Arky Vaughan left baseball for awhile after having a clubhouse fight with his manager. Darrell Porter had a drug problem throughout his career. Lefty Grove was a selfish jerk who routinely told his manager which days he would and wouldn't pitch.

That's nine guys to put on the field all at once, and all nine of those guys could play for me. I'm also betting that team would roll to a World Series victory quite easily if they all played together too.

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 01:04 AM
Seriously. Add to the fact that he has more money than he'll ever need.

Perhaps he just didn't have the stats he wanted, that would be a good guess also IMO.

KoryMac5
08-16-2007, 01:12 AM
Perhaps he just didn't have the stats he wanted, that would be a good guess also IMO.

Stats, I haven't heard anything so foolish in my life. JR comes back every year for one reason and one reason only. The chance to play for a WS ring. You don't come through those types of rehabs and operations just so you can pad your numbers.

RFS62
08-16-2007, 01:12 AM
Legend has it that Babe Ruth, drunk as he often was, once held his manager, Miller Huggins, upside down by his ankles off the back of a speeding train.

I've heard that those Yankee teams were pretty good.

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 01:12 AM
Griffey just kills me sometimes. This is not quite up there with "Stretching? Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?" But it's still pretty funny.

Griffey is not a bad RF by any means. But he is nothing close to what he used to be defensively and I had no problem with Pete making this move. And hell, we won the game didn't we? Griffey continues to have his priorities out of whack.

cincrazy
08-16-2007, 01:13 AM
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I love Griffey. He's a great player, and he's a good person. He's not going to soil this organization's name in any way, shape, or form. However, he's not a leader. He doesn't take criticism well, he's too sensitive, and he's similar to Barry Bonds in a way as it pertains to his at times excessive defensiveness.

He's not built to lead a baseball team, and that's fine. Some guys are, some guys aren't. Those great Seattle teams had Jay Buhner and Edgar Martinez to lead, Griffey just did his thing on the field, and that's great.

And this Reds team loses because it doesn't have talent. Correct. But, I can't help but believe that an organization that puts two guys in the lead role that aren't comfortable in being there (Griffey and Dunn) doesn't have some kind of an effect on a ball club.

What Griffey said effects the rest of that clubhouse, and I don't think that's something he's always been able to grasp. This team's major flaw (other than acquiring a lack of talent) has been asking Griffey to do something he's not comfortable of doing, which is to lead a team. He'd rather stay in the background, do his thing, and let the other guys carry the mental load of being the team "leaders." And that's fine. Only problem is, the Reds never figured that out.

MWM
08-16-2007, 01:29 AM
Legend has it that Babe Ruth, drunk as he often was, once held his manager, Miller Huggins, upside down by his ankles off the back of a speeding train.

I've heard that those Yankee teams were pretty good.

But when they win, those guys were willing to put aside those differences for the sake of winning. When they don't win, it's BECAUSE of the attitude. Again, it's a 100% foolproof theory. There's no way to proveit wrong.

Eric_Davis
08-16-2007, 01:31 AM
The point behind making the double switch was to move David Weathers' spot in the order as far from actually coming to the plate as possible. The last thing the Reds wanted was for Weathers (in the #9 spot) to come up in the top of the ninth in a situation where the Reds could score some more runs. The last player to bat in the top of the eighth (and therefore the most likely candidate to be double-switched) was Brandon Phillips, but the Reds didn't have a backup infielder last night. That left Griffey as the next-to-last spot. So he was the "lucky" player who got switched out. The Reds couldn't switch out Keppinger (one spot ahead of Griffey) for the same reason they couldn't switch out Phillips. Taking Hamilton out in the double switch would only gain one position in the batting order for Weathers, so that wouldn't make much sense, either.

Griffey's feelings might be hurt, but he needs to understand that it was a strategic move, and nothing personal.


Yes. If Junior hadn't whiffed with the bases loaded it wouldn't have been an issue. It's your own fault, Junior. Even if you have made numerous sliding plays so far this year, you're so incredibly slow, it's almost like watching someone run who's wearing cement shoes out there in right field. I guess he won't age gracefully if we keep him on this team the next three years.

I hope this was just a knee-jerk reaction by Junior, and that he's not serious.

flyer85
08-16-2007, 01:34 AM
Pete probably should keep Hamilton in the game and put Burton in Jrs spot ... but I am betting he doesn't.

redsrule2500
08-16-2007, 01:36 AM
deleted

KoryMac5
08-16-2007, 01:40 AM
This is what makes me hate Jr.

Mack should do it again to show who's in charge. That's complete crap to talk back like that, you aren't some Baseball God Griffey...wow.

Hate is a bit harsh.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2007, 01:50 AM
Hate is a bit harsh.

So is trash.

Big Klu
08-16-2007, 01:51 AM
It was a strategic move and nothing personal. On that I agree.

On another level, it's impossible not to take personally. Griffey's been a star his entire career. Stars don't get double-switched out of tight ballgames. They just don't. There's no way he's not going to draw unflattering conclusions from it. He shouldn't have commented to the media, but he's a competitor and I wouldn't expect him to be happy about being yanked.

He doesn't have to like it. In fact, I'm glad he doesn't like it. You show me a player that likes being taken out of the game, and I'll show you a player who I don't want on my team.

But he needs to understand the bigger picture, and he shouldn't have made it an issue in the media. And I'm saying this as a big Ken Griffey, Jr. fan.

Matt700wlw
08-16-2007, 01:53 AM
But he needs to understand the bigger picture, and he shouldn't have made it an issue in the media. And I'm saying this as a big Ken Griffey, Jr. fan.

I agree. He can't win that battle.


I'm sure he wasn't happy about it, nor should he be...but he has to remember baseball is a team game....regardless of how bad the record is.

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 02:08 AM
This is what makes me hate Jr.

Mack should do it again to show who's in charge. That's complete crap to talk back like that, you aren't some Baseball God Griffey...wow.

Honestly, this could be why we lose. With someone like this on the club, it's gotta be hard to play as a team.

I'm completely serious, I hope we get rid of this trash as soon as we can...wow...

Any thought that the quote was taken out of context as they usually are, before deciding to defame the likes of Griffey?

Matt700wlw
08-16-2007, 02:12 AM
Any thought that the quote was taken out of context as they usually are, before deciding to defame the likes of Griffey?

That never happens...not in this business :cool:

mbgrayson
08-16-2007, 02:13 AM
Hey folks; a more detailed story on Griffey being pulled is now on MLB.com. It lightens the tone considerably...Griffey was talking jokingly, and Pete needed to do a double switch.

Notes: Double-switch new for Griffey
Veteran surprised by move; manager had limited options (http://reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070815&content_id=2150697&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

CHICAGO -- Even after playing in more than 2,300 Major League games over 19 seasons, Ken Griffey Jr. apparently hadn't experienced everything.
Being taken out in a double-switch on Tuesday was a new one for the Reds right fielder.

With two outs in the eighth inning of Tuesday's 6-5 win over the Cubs, interim manager Pete Mackanin called closer David Weathers from the bullpen. Mackanin also summoned Griffey off the field and sent out Norris Hopper to replace him.

Griffey looked stunned when Hopper ran out and wasn't thrilled with the decision.

"I was double-switched for the first time, and the last time," Griffey said Wednesday before cracking a joke. "If it happens again, I will run around in circles. I'll be like Tanner in the Astrodome [from the Bad News Bears movie]."

Griffey, who entered the night with 590 career home runs and 27 this season, struck out in the top of the eighth for the second out. Second baseman Brandon Phillips made the final out of the inning. Weathers took over Griffey's fifth spot in the lineup and Hopper batted ninth in the switch. Neither turn came up in the ninth inning.

"Under the circumstances, I didn't have another infielder," Mackanin said. "It was one of those unusual things. I didn't want to get to the pitcher's spot and not have an opportunity to drive in a run. I didn't want to take Weathers out. Hey, that's the game. He was a little surprised. It probably won't happen again. It's one of those situations that came up."

Matt700wlw
08-16-2007, 02:15 AM
See...out of context never happens in this business :cool:

Patrick Bateman
08-16-2007, 02:19 AM
Hey folks; a more detailed story on Griffey being pulled is now on MLB.com. It lightens the tone considerably...Griffey was talking jokingly, and Pete needed to do a double switch.

Notes: Double-switch new for Griffey
Veteran surprised by move; manager had limited options (http://reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070815&content_id=2150697&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

Shocking. Who would have ever thought that the media would take a quote out of context to try to make a nothing situation into a news story?

Some of you guys need get your facts straight before criticizing players of Griffey's calibre. Some of the posts on this thread are down right embarassing.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2007, 02:25 AM
See...out of context never happens in this business :cool:

Yes. But those who jumped to conclusion shows that Junior is a lightening rod. And I cannot help but believe that a lot of this comes from the fact that he makes a lot of money (and really, he doesn't anymore compared to others) and folks resent it. Prima donna? How many times did Lidner's administration go to him and ask that the defer money to make this team better? How many? Many times. He didn't have to do that. It's simply ludicrous to criticize this man who has been so much of the perfect baseball player his entire life.

So many forget that this is baseball. It's not football where the iron hand rules. I have always doubted that the iron hand works much in baseball. And no matter what sport, you just don't diss the stars. Junior had his say and someone read into it and it probably wasn't accurate. I'm more upset with the reaction of Reds fans than the event itself. After going through the Frank Robinson fiasco and others, it just brought back so many bad memories. For my reaction, I apologize.

WVRedsFan
08-16-2007, 02:27 AM
Shocking. Who would have ever thought that the media would take a quote out of context to try to make a nothing situation into a news story?

Some of you guys need get your facts straight before criticizing players of Griffey's calibre. Some of the posts on this thread are down right embarassing.

So true, so true. The hatred of all things Griffey shows its ugly head at every opportune moment.

919191
08-16-2007, 02:28 AM
And this is supposed to be the elite board?

WVRedsFan
08-16-2007, 02:30 AM
And this is supposed to be the elite board?

Bingo!

Big Klu
08-16-2007, 03:29 AM
Well, I'm glad (and relieved) that the actual tone was much lighter. As I said before, Griffey didn't have to like it--and it shows his competitive nature that he didn't like it. But he understood the decision. Tip of the cap to you, Junior!

As for the media, who likes to skew things with half-truths... :angry: :thumbdown

Eric_Davis
08-16-2007, 03:38 AM
I hope this was just a knee-jerk reaction by Junior, and that he's not serious.

Like I said, I hoped he wasn't serious.

fearofpopvol1
08-16-2007, 03:41 AM
Griffey has never been a leader. And I'm not knocking him for that, it's just not who he is and I don't think he's comfortable being that way anyhow.

However, his comment disappoints me, especially after a win. I understand his frustrations, especially since his defense in RF has been much better since the break. Griffey historically hasn't been one to open his mouth to his detriment, but he sure did this time. I'm hoping he decides to say he made a mistake tomorrow.

Props to Pete though for doing what he felt was best for the team rather than 1 player.

NDRed
08-16-2007, 03:48 AM
After reading through 5 pages..............now that is funny.

"Much ado about nothing"

Ron Madden
08-16-2007, 04:48 AM
And this is supposed to be the elite board?

Sad aint it?

I know everyone has the right to thier own opinion.
But Good Lord!

I wonder how some of the posters in this thread could ever be taken seriously.

I still say Reds44 and WilyMoRocks deserve ORG access more than myself and a whole lot of these guys.

Only in Cincinnati, will two of the clubs most productive and talented players ( Griffey & Dunn) shoulder the lions share of the blame for franchise wide failure and incompetence.

After all anyone can win if they want to bad enough.

:(

RedsBaron
08-16-2007, 08:00 AM
Legend has it that Babe Ruth, drunk as he often was, once held his manager, Miller Huggins, upside down by his ankles off the back of a speeding train.

I've heard that those Yankee teams were pretty good.

They "knew how to win," "did the little things", and were scrappy--oh, yeah, I almost forgot-along with leading the league in strikeouts every season, that Ruth guy hit a lot of home runs.

Ltlabner
08-16-2007, 08:34 AM
Kinda funny reading the freak out the day after.

LvJ
08-16-2007, 08:47 AM
Lovely ESPN. Quite lovely.

osuceltic
08-16-2007, 09:02 AM
Shocking. Who would have ever thought that the media would take a quote out of context to try to make a nothing situation into a news story?

Some of you guys need get your facts straight before criticizing players of Griffey's calibre. Some of the posts on this thread are down right embarassing.

I'm sorry, but even with the Tanner quote, you can't ignore the first part of the quote. He wasn't joking with the "first time/last time" quote. I stand by my earlier post 100 percent.

edabbs44
08-16-2007, 09:15 AM
I'm sorry, but even with the Tanner quote, you can't ignore the first part of the quote. He wasn't joking with the "first time/last time" quote. I stand by my earlier post 100 percent.

Have to agree...behind every joke, there is some truth.

dabvu2498
08-16-2007, 09:19 AM
It really wasn't the "first time" either.

June 6, 2000: Scott Sullivan replaces Ken Griffey pitching and batting 3rd
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200006060.shtml

July 9, 2000: Danny Graves replaces Ken Griffey pitching and batting 3rd
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200007090.shtml

Jule 21, 2001: Danny Graves replaces Ken Griffey pitching and batting 3rd
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/FLO/FLO200107210.shtml

redsrule2500
08-16-2007, 09:34 AM
Good to hear. However, if that was real, my thoughts still "stand" ;)

letsgojunior
08-16-2007, 09:45 AM
Absolutely shocking that there was 6 pages of vitrol prior to the full quote being released, and only 2 pages after.

I also don't understand the perspective that the first portion of the quote should be viewed independently - he started the second portion with "if it happens again."

Moreover, Mackinin himself implied that it was a freak move, and that the chances of it happening again were slim.

nate
08-16-2007, 09:49 AM
Right, there's no chance he was pretending to be serious so the Tanner joke would have more impact.

Everyone can see that just by reading the text.

And his mind.

KittyDuran
08-16-2007, 10:07 AM
Absolutely shocking that there was 6 pages of vitrol prior to the full quote being released, and only 2 pages after.

I also don't understand the perspective that the first portion of the quote should be viewed independently - he started the second portion with "if it happens again."

Moreover, Mackinin himself implied that it was a freak move, and that the chances of it happening again were slim.I'm not... the guy is a LIGHTNING ROD! (sorry about the CAPs but I have to shout it) ;) He's the main reason (IMHO) that RedsZone was even created. Not surprising... but it does add a little excitement to a dissappointing season. :beerme:

GAC
08-16-2007, 10:13 AM
Some of you guys need get your facts straight before criticizing players of Griffey's calibre. Some of the posts on this thread are down right embarassing.

Some of the statements made were based on the only facts available to us at the time. Can't get something straight if you have no prior knowledge of it. ;)

And from what I've read, a majority of the responses on here was not expressing an overall hatred or dislike for Jr; but simply disagreeing with what he did in this particular situation.

If it comes out the next day that it possibly wasn't as totally accurate as the media originally reported it, then IMO, that's not the fault of people expressing their opinion based on the initial reports.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2007, 10:15 AM
comments like that are reasons why He and Dunn will never be leaders on a team...they are great individual players but they are not leaders.

Is it a pre-requisite that great individual players must also be leaders?

I'd rather have a team full of Griffey and Dunn than a team full of leaders.

While Griffey is no longer a good defensive OF, I thought it showed some fire from him that he wants to be out there playing and contributing, rather than being labeled as a defensive liability. I'd rather have Griffey in RF in late innings in a close game (which could end up in extra innings), than subbing in Ellison or Hopper or whoever we have on our roster at that current time that has no business starting in the OF.

This isn't a dig on Ellison or Hopper, just a comment that I'd rather have Griffey's bat in the lineup in extra innings.

Highlifeman21
08-16-2007, 10:19 AM
Legend has it that Babe Ruth, drunk as he often was, once held his manager, Miller Huggins, upside down by his ankles off the back of a speeding train.

I've heard that those Yankee teams were pretty good.

Just b/c you're old enough to have seen Ruth play his entire career doesn't mean you get to rub it in our faces!

And, let's get your story straight... "Legend" didn't have it, you were probably on the same train where Ruth held his manager by his ankles off the back!

:D

And for the record, those Yankees teams were alright, maybe even borderline so-so.

Johnny Footstool
08-16-2007, 10:37 AM
The lesson here is one that we all should have learned long ago: Don't believe the media.

I didn't see this reported, but did Mackanin speak to Griffey in the dugout after Griffey came out of the game? I imagine he did.

Any decent manager would talk to his star player and explain his reasons for removing him. Good managers know how to deal with people. Mackanin probably explained the situation and told Griffey it wouldn't happen again, which is why Griffey made his comment to the media.

This isn't "The Bronx is Burning". I think the Reds manager and players actually talk to each other like rational human beings.

registerthis
08-16-2007, 10:52 AM
This is what makes me hate Jr.

Is your life truly so easy and simple that you can get your emotions stoked up to a level of hatred for a baseball player who said something you don't approve of? Yeesh, save it for something that matters...or for someone more deserving.

registerthis
08-16-2007, 10:52 AM
Some of the statements made were based on the only facts available to us at the time.

Turns out, the "facts" weren't very "factual".

registerthis
08-16-2007, 10:55 AM
Absolutely shocking that there was 6 pages of vitrol prior to the full quote being released, and only 2 pages after.

Around here, it's not shocking, it's expected. (Although I sense the sarcasm in your post)

'Round these parts, we like our players to hustle and be chipper. Production comes in a distant second. If only Junior "led" and Dunn smiled more, this team wouldn't be mired in the bottom of the standings. Why hasn't Reds management figured that out by now and fixed the problem?

KittyDuran
08-16-2007, 11:13 AM
Around here, it's not shocking, it's expected. (Although I sense the sarcasm in your post)

'Round these parts, we like our players to hustle and be chipper. Production comes in a distant second. If only Junior "led" and Dunn smiled more, this team wouldn't be mired in the bottom of the standings. Why hasn't Reds management figured that out by now and fixed the problem?No, No, No... you can't have Dunn smiling a lot - he'll go over the team's SPI quota...;)

westofyou
08-16-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm completely serious, I hope we get rid of this trash as soon as we can...wow...

Wow... just wow.

In a thread full of it, this turd is the smelliest.

Joseph
08-16-2007, 11:30 AM
Turns out, the "facts" weren't very "factual".

And those non-factual facts are the ones people will take with them and not the actual facts.

I'd like to nominate this for the worst thread of the week award.

nate
08-16-2007, 11:40 AM
No, No, No... you can't have Dunn smiling a lot - he'll go over the team's SPI quota...;)

High SPIs are death to a poor team.

nate
08-16-2007, 11:41 AM
And those non-factual facts are the ones people will take with them and not the actual facts.

I'd like to nominate this for the worst thread of the week award.

Seconded.

Puffy
08-16-2007, 11:42 AM
Shocking. Who would have ever thought that the media would take a quote out of context to try to make a nothing situation into a news story?

Some of you guys need get your facts straight before criticizing players of Griffey's calibre. Some of the posts on this thread are down right embarassing.

:clap::clap::clap:

deltachi8
08-16-2007, 11:54 AM
Nothing to see here - please disperse.

Heath
08-16-2007, 12:16 PM
And those non-factual facts are the ones people will take with them and not the actual facts.

I'd like to nominate this for the worst thread of the week award.

I'd like to second that nomination. Two mods can make a right.

Closed.