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View Full Version : Can Dunn be traded in the offseason?



Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 01:10 AM
I have heard conflicting reports and just want to make sure. If the Reds pick his option up for $13 million, which seems like a no-brainer to me, can we deal him in the offseason? Or do we have to wait until after June 15? (Someone posted that we would have to wait until after 6/15/08, which is the first time I had heard of that.)

TIA

Mario-Rijo
08-16-2007, 01:14 AM
I have heard conflicting reports and just want to make sure. If the Reds pick his option up for $13 million, which seems like a no-brainer to me, can we deal him in the offseason? Or do we have to wait until after June 15? (Someone posted that we would have to wait until after 6/15/08, which is the first time I had heard of that.)

TIA

That is true unless you can talk him and his agent into changing the no-trade clause (that he would have until that date, at which time he would then have a limited no trade clause something like 19 teams he won't go to) to get him a LTC somewhere else after dealt. My guess is that they will likely attempt to do so.

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 01:22 AM
That is true unless you can talk him and his agent into changing the no-trade clause (that he would have until that date, at which time he would then have a limited no trade clause something like 19 teams he won't go to) to get him a LTC somewhere else after dealt. My guess is that they will likely attempt to do so.

Thanks Soto Jose.

KronoRed
08-16-2007, 01:47 AM
I would expect that the players union would push Dunn and his agent to demand momentary compensation for dropping the no trade till June 15th clause.

They don't like contracts to be changed unless more cash is thrown in.

flyer85
08-16-2007, 01:47 AM
only if he waves his no-trade clause. He probably would be willing to do that in exchange for a contract extension from the acquiring team.

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 01:55 AM
I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.

guttle11
08-16-2007, 02:20 AM
No trade clauses aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's simply about leverage for the player. Nothing more.

If the Reds truly want to move Dunn after the option is picked up, they will. I'm not even sure it will take a LTC. Probably just a contender so Dunn can have a better chance to cash in.

fearofpopvol1
08-16-2007, 03:36 AM
I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.

I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 03:48 AM
I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.

You might be right. I thought Dunn signed his extension in 2006, but maybe it was '05.

NDRed
08-16-2007, 03:54 AM
I honestly believe the Reds will pick up the option(duh) and sign Dunn to a 4-5 year contract. He will be a Cincinnati Red for a long time.

For them to do otherwise proves that new ownership was full of, um, not truthful. I don't think they want to put themselves in that position.

Cyclone792
08-16-2007, 04:00 AM
I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.


I'm pretty sure this was DanO's mistake, not Krivsky's.

Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.

At the end of this season, the Reds will have paid Dunn $18.5 million for his last two seasons, and that's a figure that's below market value for his type of production during the latter two arbitration years. If Dunn would have gone to arbitration in both 2006 and 2007, he'd likely have made quite a bit more than the $18.5 million the Reds will be paying him over the two seasons. Heck, in 2006 Dunn was seeking $8.95 million in arbitration (and would have likely won) so 2006 alone saved the Reds nearly $1.5 million by itself.

Secondly, next year's option at $13 million is also likely below market value for a 28-year-old player of Dunn's caliber in what would be a free agent year. That option isn't eating up an arbitration eligible year; it's eating up a free agent year, and that's the important distinction here.

Tally up the $31.5 million total cost of that deal over three years, and the Reds will have saved some nice coin over what Dunn would have been paid had the Reds gone to arbitration with him and paid him at market value for each season.

The no-trade clause through June 15th followed by a limited no-trade clause thereafter if the option is picked up was part of the give-and-take agreed upon in exchange for a lower total dollar amount. The Reds got Dunn at below market value for three seasons, including a free agent season, and Dunn got himself a bit of trade protection during the final season, which is also a free agent year for him in terms of service time.

It was an excellent deal for the Reds in 2006 when it happened, and it's still an excellent deal for the Reds right now.

RedsManRick
08-16-2007, 09:50 AM
I can't believe the Reds agreed to this 6/15/08 no-trade date when they made this contract. What a joke. It almost makes the option year pointless, unless the team is planning to sign him long-term. And I can't imagine that is going to happen. Hopefully cooler heads prevail this offseason. Dunn has to be reaching the point where he wants to know where he is going to be long term so he doesn't have to go through the "Will he get traded" rumors every year. I just don't see how this 6/15/08 date helps anyone, and the Reds were foolish to agree to it. I would rather his option be $14 million with the option to trade him anytime we wanted, to any team we wanted. I'm sure Dunn's agent would have gone for that. Bad move by Krivsky IMO.

It actually makes a lot of sense to me. It's set up precisely so that Dunn could avoid the Arroyo scenario of getting extended and then traded. However, because it's the middle of June, if the Reds are out of it, they have ample time to move him to a contender.

redsmetz
08-16-2007, 10:55 AM
Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.

At the end of this season, the Reds will have paid Dunn $18.5 million for his last two seasons, and that's a figure that's below market value for his type of production during the latter two arbitration years. If Dunn would have gone to arbitration in both 2006 and 2007, he'd likely have made quite a bit more than the $18.5 million the Reds will be paying him over the two seasons. Heck, in 2006 Dunn was seeking $8.95 million in arbitration (and would have likely won) so 2006 alone saved the Reds nearly $1.5 million by itself.

Secondly, next year's option at $13 million is also likely below market value for a 28-year-old player of Dunn's caliber in what would be a free agent year. That option isn't eating up an arbitration eligible year; it's eating up a free agent year, and that's the important distinction here.

Tally up the $31.5 million total cost of that deal over three years, and the Reds will have saved some nice coin over what Dunn would have been paid had the Reds gone to arbitration with him and paid him at market value for each season.

The no-trade clause through June 15th followed by a limited no-trade clause thereafter if the option is picked up was part of the give-and-take agreed upon in exchange for a lower total dollar amount. The Reds got Dunn at below market value for three seasons, including a free agent season, and Dunn got himself a bit of trade protection during the final season, which is also a free agent year for him in terms of service time.

It was an excellent deal for the Reds in 2006 when it happened, and it's still an excellent deal for the Reds right now.

:clap:

This is perhaps the most clear and coherent explanation of why Krivsky made a good move with Dunn. I share your dismay at the disdain both he and Griffey get. I think this contract shows a lot of give and take on both parts. Plus I've always felt it showed that both sides wanted Dunn to stay.

nate
08-16-2007, 11:03 AM
Ya gotta love the "what have you done for me lately?" attitude sometimes coinciding with very short memories.

Right on, broham!

PuffyPig
08-16-2007, 11:10 AM
No trade clauses aren't worth the paper they are written on. It's simply about leverage for the player. Nothing more.

If the Reds truly want to move Dunn after the option is picked up, they will. I'm not even sure it will take a LTC. Probably just a contender so Dunn can have a better chance to cash in.

Actually, a no trade clause is completely enforceable, so it is worth the paper it is written on.

Dunn can choose to enforce it, or make demands (reasonable or not) to waive it.

Yes it gives Dunn leverage. Because the Reds can't trade him without his consent.

IslandRed
08-16-2007, 11:44 AM
You might be right. I thought Dunn signed his extension in 2006, but maybe it was '05.

No, you were right. It was a Krivsky deal, done almost as soon as he walked in the door.


I honestly believe the Reds will pick up the option(duh) and sign Dunn to a 4-5 year contract. He will be a Cincinnati Red for a long time.

For them to do otherwise proves that new ownership was full of, um, not truthful. I don't think they want to put themselves in that position.

The Reds can pick up the option on their own, but whether Dunn stays after that is just as much his say as the team's.


The no-trade clause through June 15th followed by a limited no-trade clause thereafter if the option is picked up was part of the give-and-take agreed upon in exchange for a lower total dollar amount. The Reds got Dunn at below market value for three seasons, including a free agent season, and Dunn got himself a bit of trade protection during the final season, which is also a free agent year for him in terms of service time.

Very nice post. 2008 was going to be Dunn's first free agent year. The Reds got an option to get that year at below-market value. In return, Dunn got the ability to say that he would go into 2008 as a Cincinnati Red or as a free agent. Quid pro quo.

redsmetz
08-16-2007, 11:59 AM
You might be right. I thought Dunn signed his extension in 2006, but maybe it was '05.

From the Reds archives, signing Dunn was nearly one of the first things Krivsky did:


Reds hold Dunn's rights for three years
02/13/2006 10:55 PM ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Since his hiring last Wednesday, new Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky had many pressing issues on his checklist before beginning Spring Training on Thursday.
Few items were more important in crossing off than this.

Late Monday evening, Cincinnati avoided arbitration with first baseman Adam Dunn by signing him to a two-year, $18.5 million contract with a $13 million club option for the 2008 season.

Dunn and the club were scheduled to have their arbitration hearing this Friday in Florida.

"There were so many things going on at once. This was a priority," Krivsky said by phone from his home near Dallas. "I knew (a hearing) was looming and I wanted to get it done as soon as possible. Once we were close, I was confident we could get it done."

Dunn batted .247 with 40 home runs and 101 RBIs in 160 games last season for the Reds, which gave him back-to-back 40 homer, 100-RBI seasons.

"He's got tremendous raw power, probably as much as anybody. He waits for his pitch and when he gets it, he often does something with it," Krivsky said.

In arbitration figures exchanged last month, Dunn was seeking $8.95 million while Cincinnati offered $7.1 million.

Negotiations between the club and Dunn's agent, Greg Genske, were already ongoing while interim GM Brad Kullman was in charge of the baseball operations. Once Krivsky was hired, and Kullman was dismissed Thursday, the process essentially started from scratch.

"Basically, yeah," Krivsky said.

Krivsky's first offer was tendered by the end of last week but more negotiations were needed through the weekend. Another offer followed Sunday as Krivsky headed to the airport to fly home to Texas to pack his things for Spring Training and take care of personal business.

The two sides continued negotiating into Monday before reaching a basic agreement. Assistant GM Dean Taylor helped put together the formal language of the agreement in writing before Dunn's side signed off on the deal at around 8:45 p.m ET.

After making $4.6 million in 2005, Dunn will make $7.5 million in 2006 and $10.5 million in 2007. His club option for 2008 can be bought out for $500,000. The option year will be voided if Dunn is traded at some point during the next two seasons, but he still will receive the $500,000 buyout payment. The first two seasons of the contract avoid a third year of arbitration eligibility and defer his first exploration into the free agent market for an extra season.

"This was what we felt would get us out of a hearing," Krivsky said. "We took to it to [owner] Bob [Castellini] and he approved it. We made the offer. We satisfied both parties. It's nice to have it behind us and avoid a hearing."

This will be a unique season for Dunn's career as he prepares to shift from left field to first base and replace departed star Sean Casey. Dunn decided to skip playing for Team USA in the World Baseball Classic to prepare and improve his defensive skills.

Although the Reds agreed to a one-year contract with veteran first baseman Scott Hatteberg on Sunday, it doesn't appear a move back to the outfield was imminent. However, Krivsky deferred the issue to manager Jerry Narron.

"As long as he's in our lineup, I don't care where he plays," Krivsky said. "It's up to the manager."

Blitz Dorsey
08-16-2007, 09:20 PM
You guys make some good points! I hope you are right that both sides want a long-term deal, but I just don't feel it at this point. I just think he will get traded. Too much smoke for there not to be a little bit of fire about Krivsky and Castellini wanting to deal him. But I also think they are being very smart and will not let him go unless we get two potential excellent pitchers in exchange. Either two long-term starting rotation guys, or one starter and a closer.

RedLegSuperStar
08-16-2007, 09:34 PM
USA Today -


Adam Dunn of 2 years/$18.5M (2006-07), plus $13M 2008 club option

* re-signed 2/06, avoided arbitration ($8.95M-$7.1M)
* 06:$7.5M, 07:$10.5M, 08:$13M club option ($0.5M buyout)
* 2008 option may increase to $16M based on award bonuses
* if club exercised 2008 option, Dunn receives full no-trade clause until 6/15/2008 & limited no-trade clause for the remainder of 2008 (allowing Dunn specify 10 clubs to which he would accept a trade)
* 2008 option voids if Dunn is traded before 2008
* assignment bonus of $0.5M if traded
* 1 year/$4.6M (2005), avoided arbitration 1/05
* 1 year/$0.445M (2004), re-signed 3/04
* 1 year/$0.4M (2003) 3/03
* agent: Brian Peters, Greg Genske
* ML service: 5.074