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View Full Version : Reds 40 man roster and next year's Rule 5 draft



Stingray
08-17-2007, 11:38 PM
I know i'm thinking way ahead but I was looking at the current 40 man roster to see if the Reds might be in position to again take one(or more) Rule five picks next year.

I can see at least 5 players currently on the 40 who shouldn't be during the offseason. Can anyone tell me which minor leaguer's not currently on the 40 need to be added to protect them?

Slyder
08-19-2007, 03:26 AM
Mostly guessing, but I believe Jorge Cantu, Carlos Guevara, Jesse Gutierrez, Richie Gardner would "qualify" to be selected in the Rule V draft. I am not totally sure and tried to stick with guys that I've heard mentioned as possible help from the minors. If I miss anyone I'm sure someone will add them.

camisadelgolf
08-19-2007, 04:27 AM
Jorge Cantu is arbitration eligible, but Jesse Gutierrez, Carlos Guevara, and Richie Gardner will all be rule-V eligible unless they're added to the 40-man roster.
I could see the Reds adding any of the following players:
Paul Janish
Richie Gardner
Ty Pelland
Craig Tatum
Carlos Guevara
Johnny Cueto

As far as who they'd replace, I'd guess Eddie Guardado, Mike Gosling, Victor Santos, Ryan Jorgensen, Mark Bellhorn, and Jeff Conine.

redsmetz
08-19-2007, 09:57 AM
Cantu is already on the 40 man roster.

Stingray
08-19-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't know what the service time requirement is to be Rule 5 eligible but it doesn't seem as if Johnny Cueto has been around long enough.

Management of 40 man spots should be a consideration in deciding which, if any, players not already on the 40 should be Sept callups. The Reds will be drafting high and I'd like to save one spot on on the 40 fot a Rule 5 draftee. We might get a guy who could help in '09 and beyound.

BEETTLEBUG
08-19-2007, 10:51 AM
I think it is Six years in Minors.

texasdave
08-19-2007, 11:18 AM
The first-year player draft, also known as the Rule 4 draft, was not the only draft process altered by the new CBA. The major league portion of the Rule 5 draft will be affected by giving teams one extra year to protect players from it.

Rather than teams being allowed three years (for players signed at age 19 or older) or four years (for players 18 and younger) before leaving them off the 40-man roster subjects them to the Rule 5 draft, those periods have been lengthened to four and five. Ownership considered this a significant boost in their efforts to operate their minor league systems more effectively.

This is from Baseball America. It would mean that Cueto is not Draft 5 eligible.

camisadelgolf
08-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Wow, I wasn't aware of that rule change. In that case, Paul Janish and Craig Tatum wouldn't be eligible either, which would change my list of most likely suspects to (and a couple of these might really be a stretch):
Rick Asadoorian
Richie Gardner
Carlos Guevara
Ryan Hanigan
Anderson Machado
Ty Pelland

camisadelgolf
09-20-2007, 12:48 PM
Here's a mini-update of who could be added to the 40-man roster to be protected form the Rule 5 draft:

RP Rick Asadoorian
UT Jeff Bannon
RP Carlos Bohorquez
IF Luis Bolivar
IF Caonabo Cosme
IF Enrique Cruz
SP Dan Denham
SP Richie Gardner
RP Carlos Guevara
1B Tonys Gutierrez
IF Aaron Herr
SP Steve Kelly
IF Anderson Machado
RP Justin Mallett
RP Thomas Pauly
RP Ty Pelland
C Miguel Perez
RP Ramon Ramirez
RP Ricky Stone
SP Camilio Vazquez
OF Marland Williams

(I expect a few of them to leave as Minor League free agents.)

gedred69
09-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Here's a mini-update of who could be added to the 40-man roster to be protected form the Rule 5 draft:

RP Rick Asadoorian
UT Jeff Bannon
RP Carlos Bohorquez
IF Luis Bolivar
IF Caonabo Cosme
IF Enrique Cruz
SP Dan Denham
SP Richie Gardner
RP Carlos Guevara
1B Tonys Gutierrez
IF Aaron Herr
SP Steve Kelly
IF Anderson Machado
RP Justin Mallett
RP Thomas Pauly
RP Ty Pelland
C Miguel Perez
RP Ramon Ramirez
RP Ricky Stone
SP Camilio Vazquez
OF Marland Williams

(I expect a few of them to leave as Minor League free agents.)

Interesting. Who from that list would you want to protect? Knowing of course, someone else might have to go from the current roster.

redsmetz
09-22-2007, 08:42 PM
Keep in mind too that we may want to approach the winter meetings with an open slot or two as well so we can pick up another Rule 5 player. I'm not saying that will happen, but I think they'll want a little flexibility.

Tom Servo
09-22-2007, 08:45 PM
My god, what would we do if we lost Ricky Stone!

Degenerate39
09-22-2007, 08:46 PM
My god, what would we do if we lost Ricky Stone!

Don't worry we won't ;)

Patrick Bateman
09-22-2007, 08:49 PM
Pelland is the only one really worth anything.

OnBaseMachine
09-22-2007, 09:05 PM
Pelland is the only one really worth anything.

Yup, though I would rather the keep Guevara over some of the crap currently on the roster.

chicoruiz
09-22-2007, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if someone took a shot at Asadoorian, figuring that here's a guy with a ML fastball who can be stashed in the pen for a year and even pinch hit occasionally.

JaxRed
09-22-2007, 10:05 PM
I think Asadoorian wil be protected by Reds. We already shown a proclivity towards other team's coverted outfielders.

Our guy made it to AA in his first season, with a 3.59 ERA. There's enough chaff on the roster you can make room for him.

mth123
09-22-2007, 10:09 PM
The Reds have 3 players on the 60 Day DL (Milton, Castro and Gil) and one on the restricted list (Jorgenson) none of whom count on the 40 man roster. Milton and Jorgenson probably won't be added back. Castro probably will because of his contract. Gil is a question mark but lets assume not. That is 1 spot needed there. Add in Pelland, Perez and possibly Asadoorian and Guevara and that means 5 spots are needed. If the Reds want to draft a player or 2 that could mean 6 or 7 spots.

Who goes?

Guardado? probably
Saarloos? Yes
Hanigan? Hmm, just added him.
Colina?? Ditto
Ellison?? I'd assume so
Dumatrait? even with the poor performance he'd probably get picked. He has some value I'd think - even if its only as a throw in.
Gosling? I think he has value as a LH long man. He can turn line-ups around but it may not be enough to save him.
Dickerson? He'd probably get picked, but maybe Coats makes him expendable. I can't believe the Reds would put him in the AFL if they were going to let him go.
Coats? Why'd they trade for him then?
Stanton? I don't think they have the guts. I hear he's a stand-up guy. Maybe he'll let the team off the hook and retire.
Coffey? I think they'd regret it and he is signed, but he may need a change of scenery now.

camisadelgolf
09-23-2007, 05:55 AM
I think Guardado, Saarloos, and Gosling will be gone. I could be wrong, but I believe Jason Ellison is arbitration eligible, and seeing as how the Reds have a lot of depth there (Freel, Hopper, Hamilton, Griffey, Keppinger, Dunn, etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds let him go.

Dumatrait had a god-awful rookie year, but like you said, he still has value. I think Colina (probably Jorgensen's replacement) and Coats will stay because the Reds want better looks at them. The same thing goes for Hanigan and Dickerson, as well. I don't think the Reds are ready to give up on Stanton, and as for Coffey, he has too high of a ceiling (and just high enough of a salary) to give up on him now.

mth123
09-23-2007, 07:05 AM
I think Guardado, Saarloos, and Gosling will be gone. I could be wrong, but I believe Jason Ellison is arbitration eligible, and seeing as how the Reds have a lot of depth there (Freel, Hopper, Hamilton, Griffey, Keppinger, Dunn, etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds let him go.

Dumatrait had a god-awful rookie year, but like you said, he still has value. I think Colina (probably Jorgensen's replacement) and Coats will stay because the Reds want better looks at them. The same thing goes for Hanigan and Dickerson, as well. I don't think the Reds are ready to give up on Stanton, and as for Coffey, he has too high of a ceiling (and just high enough of a salary) to give up on him now.


I think the only guys who are gone for sure are Saarloos and Ellison and the reason is as you said, arbitration makes them probable non-tenders so they may as well be let go now to make room.

The rest is pretty iffy. WK is not real predictable in this area and I could see him wanting to keep Castro, Gil, Guardado and all the rest. If Guardado stays the Reds may renegotiate and offer him a minor league deal with a spring training invitation at a reduced salary. That would buy a 40 man slot until after the draft. I could actually see a similar move with Gosling, Saarloos, Ellison and (everyone please forgive my next 3 word phrase) maybe even Milton. The emergence of Shearn and adding him to the 40 man has added him to the crowd, but given his performance he has to be kept on the roster now IMO.

This exercise makes it easy to see why Bruce and Cueto weren't called up. Adding them to the 40 man would have increased the logjam and for all the other talk, this administrative stuff is important and I suspect is the real reason we aren't seeing them now.

redsmetz
09-23-2007, 09:09 AM
This exercise makes it easy to see why Bruce and Cueto weren't called up. Adding them to the 40 man would have increased the logjam and for all the other talk, this administrative stuff is important and I suspect is the real reason we aren't seeing them now.

It's always a hard sell to state that publically, isn't it? I think I'd rather worry about the 40 man situation in Spring Training or short after the season starts rather than hamstring yourself during the off-season. Plus, I believe someone like Rick Short who says both need further seasoning.

mth123
09-23-2007, 09:19 AM
It's always a hard sell to state that publically, isn't it? I think I'd rather worry about the 40 man situation in Spring Training or short after the season starts rather than hamstring yourself during the off-season. Plus, I believe someone like Rick Short who says both need further seasoning.

Agree. Hamilton and Burton should be reasons 1A and 1B why properly managing the 40 Man going into the draft is important. Teams need to leave room to grab guys like this and also teams need to leave room to protect guys who still have potential. Adding guys before they have to be, unless they are going straight to an integral major league role, bumps somebody else off or fills the roster to prevent selecting anyone.

I have no complaints concerning Bruce and Cueto not making a September appearance in Cincy.

GoReds33
09-23-2007, 12:08 PM
Pelland, Guevara, and M. Perez. That would be who I would protect. I still like Perez. He is a cheaper Chad Moeller.

AmarilloRed
09-23-2007, 02:11 PM
I think the only guys who are gone for sure are Saarloos and Ellison and the reason is as you said, arbitration makes them probable non-tenders so they may as well be let go now to make room.

The rest is pretty iffy. WK is not real predictable in this area and I could see him wanting to keep Castro, Gil, Guardado and all the rest. If Guardado stays the Reds may renegotiate and offer him a minor league deal with a spring training invitation at a reduced salary. That would buy a 40 man slot until after the draft. I could actually see a similar move with Gosling, Saarloos, Ellison and (everyone please forgive my next 3 word phrase) maybe even Milton. The emergence of Shearn and adding him to the 40 man has added him to the crowd, but given his performance he has to be kept on the roster now IMO.

This exercise makes it easy to see why Bruce and Cueto weren't called up. Adding them to the 40 man would have increased the logjam and for all the other talk, this administrative stuff is important and I suspect is the real reason we aren't seeing them now.

So you think the Reds may offer Milton a minor league deal? It might not be too much of a surprise, especially with the state of our starting pitching.

mth123
09-23-2007, 02:26 PM
So you think the Reds may offer Milton a minor league deal? It might not be too much of a surprise, especially with the state of our starting pitching.

Not so much saying it will happen as much as saying Krivsky is unpredictable and it wouldn't surprise me. He seems to have no pattern.

camisadelgolf
09-23-2007, 03:20 PM
I think the Reds won't offer anything to Milton because there would be a mutual understanding that Milton would rather be in any Major League organization other than the Reds'. I wouldn't be shocked for Milton to get a one-year Major League deal for $500k, to be honest with you. It's a sick world we live in.

dougdirt
09-23-2007, 03:43 PM
I think the Reds won't offer anything to Milton because there would be a mutual understanding that Milton would rather be in any Major League organization other than the Reds'. I wouldn't be shocked for Milton to get a one-year Major League deal for $500k, to be honest with you. It's a sick world we live in.
I don't even know if its allowed that he make a low number with the amount of service time he has.....

JaxRed
09-23-2007, 05:55 PM
He can. You just can't offer that as an arbitration offer.

dougdirt
09-23-2007, 05:59 PM
He can. You just can't offer that as an arbitration offer.

Gotcha. Thanks. I knew there was something about offering low amounts to Vets.... just wasn't sure exactly how it worked.

GoReds33
09-23-2007, 08:23 PM
Chris Dickerson is useless to the Reds in my book. He can't hit whatsoever. Yes he has a little power, but that doesn't make up for his horrible average. I say that we should try and get something, anything for him.

dougdirt
09-23-2007, 08:28 PM
Chris Dickerson is useless to the Reds in my book. He can't hit whatsoever. Yes he has a little power, but that doesn't make up for his horrible average. I say that we should try and get something, anything for him.

He has good on base skills. He has some pop. He has great defense. He has some speed.

GoReds33
09-23-2007, 08:32 PM
He has good on base skills. He has some pop. He has great defense. He has some speed.I like his defense, I just think his hitting is terrible. I think it's so bad that he doesn't figure into the Reds future.

AmarilloRed
09-24-2007, 12:43 AM
I may have mentioned this before, but this was Chris' first year at AAA. The Reds may want him to develop some more before they bring him up. I think it is premature to say he is not in the Reds future plans.

HokieRed
09-24-2007, 08:56 AM
If the issue is the 40 man roster construction, I don't see why there'd be any doubt about Chris Dickerson's being on it. Seems to me he's in danger of being undervalued. He put up a .361 OBP at Louisville, nearly an .800 OPS, an .836 OPS for the second half, has some power, had 23 steals and an 80% steal success rate, and is a terrific fielder. I suggest he'll either be in a Reds uniform next spring or in the uniform of some other major league team. If the Reds can move Freel, I'd expect him to be the 5th outfielder (assuming Dunn has been continued).

GoReds33
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
I may have mentioned this before, but this was Chris' first year at AAA. The Reds may want him to develop some more before they bring him up. I think it is premature to say he is not in the Reds future plans.
I guess you are right. I can't jump the gun on any pro baseball player. They must have pretty good skills.:)

Jefferson24
09-26-2007, 02:12 PM
I just looked at the 40 man roster. There's only about 20 of those players I would like to see in Cincinnati. I would say any rule 5 guy needs to be a pitcher that can add something to the team. We have enough decent position players.

fearofpopvol1
10-02-2007, 11:28 PM
I just looked at the 40 man roster. There's only about 20 of those players I would like to see in Cincinnati. I would say any rule 5 guy needs to be a pitcher that can add something to the team. We have enough decent position players.

While I agree in theory, you want to take the best players available no matter what the position is in that sort of draft. They could make other players more expendable.

pedro
10-02-2007, 11:41 PM
Coats? Why'd they trade for him then?
.

b/c they needed a warm body for the rest of the season that they didn't have to worry about losing when they drop him from the 40 man roster.

reds44
10-02-2007, 11:50 PM
Dickerson has much more upside then Coats does.

Degenerate39
10-03-2007, 06:22 AM
Dickerson has much more upside then Coats does.

And Ellison

camisadelgolf
10-03-2007, 09:08 AM
True, but Dickerson is probably the least likely of the three to actually reach his upside.

princeton
10-03-2007, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't be shocked if someone took a shot at Asadoorian, figuring that here's a guy with a ML fastball who can be stashed in the pen for a year and even pinch hit occasionally.

he couldn't hit in A ball, let alone pinch-hit in the majors.

but as a pinch runner/defensive outfielder...

dfs
10-03-2007, 11:23 AM
Since the reds decided to use Ellison (and Coats) over bringing up Dickerson. I can't see him having a future here. Heck, Bruce moved him out of center in Louisville. That doesn't bode well.

By my count next year will be Dickerson's last option. He was on the 40 man roster last year and this as well. Since he doesn't project to be a regular with this club, that's gonna be a problem for him. It certainly doesn't help that he's a lefty in a lefty heavy organization. I think they give him away for boxtops.

Likewise, by my count Phil Dumatrait has now burned his last option. If that's the case...he's pretty much toast isn't he? He's done nothing but start. If he can only start and they can't send him down....he's not an asset. I mean, they can't pencil him into the starting rotation and expect to sell season tickets, can they?

If anybody knows where there's a list of who has use how many options, I would love to see it. I was shocked to find out the Lizard had an option left this year. He's another one that they'll have to make a decision on.

redsmetz
10-03-2007, 12:36 PM
Since the reds decided to use Ellison (and Coats) over bringing up Dickerson. I can't see him having a future here. Heck, Bruce moved him out of center in Louisville. That doesn't bode well.

By my count next year will be Dickerson's last option. He was on the 40 man roster last year and this as well. Since he doesn't project to be a regular with this club, that's gonna be a problem for him. It certainly doesn't help that he's a lefty in a lefty heavy organization. I think they give him away for boxtops.

Likewise, by my count Phil Dumatrait has now burned his last option. If that's the case...he's pretty much toast isn't he? He's done nothing but start. If he can only start and they can't send him down....he's not an asset. I mean, they can't pencil him into the starting rotation and expect to sell season tickets, can they?

If anybody knows where there's a list of who has use how many options, I would love to see it. I was shocked to find out the Lizard had an option left this year. He's another one that they'll have to make a decision on.

Don't you think though that it's more likely that, if their days are done here, that they'll move them via trade even if it's just for "boxtops" as you said. And I think we'll get a bit more than that.

Wayne has done alright moving guys who are done in our system. Heck he moved a broken Chris Denorfia for Marcus MacBeth and Ben Jukich. Macbeth is one folks' radar and Jukich did okay at Sarasota. I see they've got him in the AFL this fall, so we'll see if he makes improvement or gets dressed up nicely enough to move him.

redsmetz
10-04-2007, 08:41 AM
I was checking on free agent ranking rules and came across this synopsis of the Rule 5 draft changes made in last year's CBA:


First-Year Player and Rule 5 Drafts
• Clubs that can't sign their first- or second-round picks will be slotted in for a compensatory pick at the same slot in the following year's draft. Clubs that can't sign a third-round pick will receive a sandwich pick between the third and fourth rounds at the following year's draft.
• Clubs have an Aug. 15 deadline to sign all draft selections except college seniors.
• Minor League players can now be protected from the Rule 5 Draft for an extra year, to four or five years.

Stingray
11-11-2007, 11:49 AM
What's the current status of the Reds 40 man roster and minor leaguers who should be protected?

mth123
11-11-2007, 12:21 PM
What's the current status of the Reds 40 man roster and minor leaguers who should be protected?

I hope I have this right. Please correct me if necessary.

Assuming the guys on 60 day Dl are all added and that Milton is removed since he's a free agent. They stand at 34 (I had Guardado at #7 and blanked him out.):




On 40 Man
1 Harang
2 Arroyo
3 Belisle
4 Bailey
5 Livingston
6 Smit
7
8 Weathers
9 Burton
10 McBeth
11 Salmon
12 Bray
13 Majewski
14 Stanton
15 Coffey
16 Coutlangus

17 Ross
18 Valentin
19 Hanigan

20 Votto
21 Hatteberg
22 Cantu
23 Phillips
24 Gonzalez
25 Keppinger
26 Encarnacion
27 Ju Castro
28 Gil

29 Dunn
30 Griffey
31 Hamilton
32 Hopper
33 Freel
34 Coats
35 Dickerson



The list of minor league players who have to be added is pretty thin since a number of guys were named 6 year free agents:




Need Added
IF Luis Bolivar
SP Richie Gardner
RP Carlos Guevara
1B Tonys Gutierrez
RP Justin Mallett
RP Thomas Pauly
RP Ty Pelland
RP Ramon Ramirez
SP Camilio Vazquez



I see Pelland as the only lock. Ramirez and Guevara could be possible and that would still leave a couple slots open for draftees. Hopefully they sign an upgrade or two.

dougdirt
11-11-2007, 12:49 PM
The Reds have to make it a priority to sign Asadoorian and Miguel Perez back out of the guys they had that were free agents. If so, they need to protect them as well.

mth123
11-11-2007, 01:14 PM
The Reds have to make it a priority to sign Asadoorian and Miguel Perez back out of the guys they had that were free agents. If so, they need to protect them as well.

I'd probably try to sign Perez, but Asadoorian would just be on a minor league deal IMO. There are better 6 year free agent relievers if the team wants to sign one and use up a 40 man spot (Francisco Cruceta, Franklyn German, Steve Shell, Dan Giese). I think they should sign Asadoorian but not put him on the 40 man. I can't see him sticking in the majors in 2008.

gedred69
11-11-2007, 01:18 PM
If Bruce, Cueto or anybody else that doesn't have to be protected yet, makes the great leap this season, they will have to be added, eh?

mth123
11-11-2007, 01:19 PM
If Bruce, Cueto or anybody else that doesn't have to be protected yet, makes the great leap this season, they will have to be added, eh?

Yes, but not until the end of spring training and long after the rule 5 draft which is what really matters at this point.

dougdirt
11-11-2007, 01:36 PM
I'd probably try to sign Perez, but Asadoorian would just be on a minor league deal IMO. There are better 6 year free agent relievers if the team wants to sign one and use up a 40 man spot (Francisco Cruceta, Franklyn German, Steve Shell, Dan Giese). I think they should sign Asadoorian but not put him on the 40 man. I can't see him sticking in the majors in 2008.
If we sign and don't protect Asadoorian, he will be gone. Guys who throw mid 90s don't grow on trees, much less guys who have success in AA in their first year as a pitcher. Someone will take a chance on him if he is available.

mth123
11-11-2007, 01:45 PM
If we sign and don't protect Asadoorian, he will be gone. Guys who throw mid 90s don't grow on trees, much less guys who have success in AA in their first year as a pitcher. Someone will take a chance on him if he is available.

You could be right if he throws that hard. Does he really throw mid 90s? Can he actually pitch at that speed or does he throw that hard with no idea of where its going and actually pitches with less velocity? I always though he was in the 91 to 92 range.

icehole3
11-11-2007, 01:48 PM
I can agree with that, I want every 90 plus flamethrower that we can get.

dougdirt
11-11-2007, 01:53 PM
You could be right if he throws that hard. Does he really throw mid 90s? Can he actually pitch at that speed or does he throw that hard with no idea of where its going and actually pitches with less velocity? I always though he was in the 91 to 92 range.

Last year when he pitched every now and again he was hitting 94-95 regularly. Regardless, if he is left unprotected by whoever signs him, he will be taken in the rule V draft by someone. Count on it.

camisadelgolf
11-11-2007, 03:30 PM
Need Added
IF Luis Bolivar
SP Richie Gardner
RP Carlos Guevara
1B Tonys Gutierrez
RP Justin Mallett
RP Thomas Pauly
RP Ty Pelland
RP Ramon Ramirez
SP Camilio Vazquez[/code]

13 Reds minor leaguers filed for free agency, so here are the remaining Reds players who could be exposed to the rule five draft:
C Chris Kroski
1B Tonys Gutierrez
IF Luis Bolivar
OF Shaun Cumberland
OF Josh Holden
OF Gerardo Cabrera?
SP Camilo Vazquez
SP Richie Gardner
RP Ramon Ramirez
RP Tyler Pelland
RP Carlos Guevara
RP Tom Pauly
RP Justin Mallett

Gerardo Cabrera was drafted by the White Sox in 2003, but I don't know if he were under contract for 2004. If he weren't, he's not eligible. His value is mostly as an interpretor, so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Personally, I'd add Pelland, Guevara, and even Ramirez. I wouldn't add Tom Pauly, but if I were another team, I might draft him depending on how well he has recovered from his injuries.

mth123
11-11-2007, 03:50 PM
I think you have a better list. I was focusing on the pitchers and forgot to go back and check on guys like Cumberland and Holden. I don't think Gardner is a free agent unless he was released. I don't see him on the list.

camisadelgolf
11-11-2007, 03:59 PM
I think you have a better list. I was focusing on the pitchers and forgot to go back and check on guys like Cumberland and Holden. I don't think Gardner is a free agent unless he was released. I don't see him on the list.

I don't see him either. I don't know why I thought he did. Maybe I just thought it would be better for him, personally, to move on. I edited my previous post, so thank you.

HokieRed
11-11-2007, 10:28 PM
Need to protect Asadoorian, Perez, if resigned, Elizardo, if resigned, and Pelland. Those are the guys other teams will take for sure. Guevara is a harder call. The guy's put up very good numbers yet there is just no organizational enthusiasm for him. His stuff is just not seen as projectable, maybe rightly, maybe not. I could see somebody taking a real flyer on Ramon Ramirez but I doubt he's far enough along to stick on a 25 man roster. I suspect the Reds will take a chance on exposing him.