Can the Reds go 29-12?

[Redlegs]

That's what it would take to finish .500 for the season. With this bullpen, I have to say no. With an average bullpen, they'd be in first place.

[UC_Ken]

How many times can we skip the #5 spot in the rotation. As it stands right now we are getting great production from our #1, #2,3 are inconsistent but capable of pitching well. #4,5 are black holes. If Elizardo is healthy enough to pitch like he did early last year then I'd say there's an outside shot, as long as we can skip th #5 spot a few times.

[bearcatfan24]

You know I think it is a long shot but nobody thought that we would be at 9 back of the the division lead either. If our starting pitching holds up and the bullpen preforms better then they have you have to wonder. Just look at the Brewers record, they are only two games over .500.

[Muggerd]

I have a hard time seeing any NL central team besides the Cards finishing more than a couple games over .500.

So if we can beat up on the central the rest of the way and i mean beat up like lose 3 games total it might make a nice last couple weeks of the season.

[jmac]

That's what it would take to finish .500 for the season. With this bullpen, I have to say no. With an average bullpen, they'd be in first place.

If there was 100 games left "right now", with the teams in the central, I would like our chances believe it or not.
Hamilton back,Kepp hitting,Burton/Bray in the pen and maybe EG but I am not counting to much on him.

[Muggerd]

I think we could pull off a ridiculous stretch of 30-10 and still miss the playoffs, Thanks Jerry Narron

[durl]

I think we could pull off a ridiculous stretch of 30-10 and still miss the playoffs, Thanks Jerry Narron

The bullpen gets 98% of the blame, in my opinion.

[BEETTLEBUG]

I would Hope but don't think so.

[CincinnatiKid]

The bullpen gets 98% of the blame, in my opinion.

As ridiculous as that sounds, it's really not far off. But if we look at our record, we're 15 games under at 53-68. When tied after 7 innings, we're 6-12. When trailing after 7, the Reds are 5-50. That's an absolutely ridiculous record. Here's the clincher: 36 losses after leading. How much of that can be attributed to the bullpen and how much to the lack of clutch hitting late in games in disputable, but it's safe to say that the bullpen blowups are fewer and farther between with Mackanin in the dugout. Coincidence? Who knows?

[Redlegs]

As ridiculous as that sounds, it's really not far off. But if we look at our record, we're 15 games under at 53-68. When tied after 7 innings, we're 6-12. When trailing after 7, the Reds are 5-50. That's an absolutely ridiculous record. Here's the clincher: 36 losses after leading. How much of that can be attributed to the bullpen and how much to the lack of clutch hitting late in games in disputable, but it's safe to say that the bullpen blowups are fewer and farther between with Mackanin in the dugout. Coincidence? Who knows?

Have you ever been to a sports bar called "Buckets"?

[Redlegs]

Just looked at the Reds schedule. If they win every series the rest of the year, including a couple 3 out of 4 game series, they'd finish with a record of 28-13. That's a final record of 80-82 and a pretty tall order. With that in mind, I say just keep playing!

[BEETTLEBUG]

Rusty Buckets ! Up by Dayton Mall

[Redlegs]

Rusty Buckets ! Up by Dayton MallNever been there, but I have been to "Buckets" in Carmel, IN.

[Muggerd]

The bullpen gets 98% of the blame, in my opinion.

I dont think narron had any idea of how to run a bullpen. Either does pete for that matter but hes a little better at it.

[jmac]

As ridiculous as that sounds, it's really not far off. But if we look at our record, we're 15 games under at 53-68. When tied after 7 innings, we're 6-12. When trailing after 7, the Reds are 5-50. That's an absolutely ridiculous record. Here's the clincher: 36 losses after leading. How much of that can be attributed to the bullpen and how much to the lack of clutch hitting late in games in disputable, but it's safe to say that the bullpen blowups are fewer and farther between with Mackanin in the dugout. Coincidence? Who knows?

One of the parts I give Pete credit on is,if a guy isnt performing(except Stanton) he doesnt act like he is a shoe in.Narron would always say stuff like "these are our guys and we know they can do it so they are gonna have to get it done eventually".
Example,Pete didnt keep running Coffey out there as JN did.
So I do give Pete some of the credit.

[Muggerd]

One of the parts I give Pete credit on is,if a guy isnt performing(except Stanton) he doesnt act like he is a shoe in.Narron would always say stuff like "these are our guys and we know they can do it so they are gonna have to get it done eventually".
Example,Pete didnt keep running Coffey out there as JN did.
So I do give Pete some of the credit.

Pete most definitely did keep running coffey out there. "Guys on bases and out comes Coffey :rolleyes:" I remember saying that too many times after pete come on.

[jimbo]

Example,Pete didnt keep running Coffey out there as JN did.
So I do give Pete some of the credit.

I don't know, I saw Pete continuously run Coffey out there in similar situations while he was getting consistantly shelled. I don't see any difference.

Pete has also had the luxury of an effective Burton and a now healthy and effective Bray, while Narron only had Weathers he could count on. I'm not saying one is better than handling the bullpen than the other, but having 3 relievers you can depend on is a big difference as to only having 1.

[AmarilloRed]

Not as long as Dumatrait is a Reds starter. Livingston and Ramirez have a chance to win games, but Dumatrait's starts are automatic losses.

[jimbo]

Not as long as Dumatrait is a Reds starter. Livingston and Ramirez have a chance to win games, but Dumatrait's starts are automatic losses.

There is nothing "automatic" in baseball.

[AmarilloRed]

That is true-let me rephrase myself. I would think it would be very difficult for the Reds to win Phil's starts unless he starts showing better control , and shows more command of the strike zone. The few times I watched him on Gameday he either could not find the strike zone, and when he could the opposing team hit him hard.

[Redlegs]

I guess the new question is "Can the Reds go 28-11?"

[jmac]

I don't know, I saw Pete continuously run Coffey out there in similar situations while he was getting consistantly shelled. I don't see any difference.

Pete has also had the luxury of an effective Burton and a now healthy and effective Bray, while Narron only had Weathers he could count on. I'm not saying one is better than handling the bullpen than the other, but having 3 relievers you can depend on is a big difference as to only having 1.
Pete did at first. Then after Coffey started or continued to flounder ,he worked Burton in there which is what I was referring to.
In other words,he basically flip-flopped their roles which I liked.
Course Coffey flopped in the other role too.

[BEETTLEBUG]

Just a question but could Coffey be made into a Starter?

[muethibp]

Just a question but could Coffey be made into a Starter?

Put me in the minority but I continue to believe that with another pitch Coffey can be an effective, well above replacement, reliever. His youth is to his advantage and hopefully this year taught him that he needs an off-speed pitch to succeed at the MLB level - while he's undoubtedly been told in the past to work on another pitch, until now in his life he has probably been able to throw the ball by everyone and didn't see the need. I still have hope for the kid.

[texasdave]

Put me in the minority but I continue to believe that with another pitch Coffey can be an effective, well above replacement, reliever. His youth is to his advantage and hopefully this year taught him that he needs an off-speed pitch to succeed at the MLB level - while he's undoubtedly been told in the past to work on another pitch, until now in his life he has probably been able to throw the ball by everyone and didn't see the need. I still have hope for the kid.

Here is a question for anyone out there. How hard is it to pick up another pitch? Does it take years to be able to throw that pitch at anything close to major-league level? You read all the time about pitchers only having 2 pitches, so it must not be that easy. I really don't know, so if anyone has any thoughts on this feel free to post them.

[eastkyred]

I think this team is alot better right now than they were earlier. I don't know if they are good enough to go 28-11, probably not, but I think they will continue to be better than .500 the rest of the way. The bullpen is good when we have the lead. Bray, Burton, and Weathers have turned into a good late inning trio. Unfortunately, when the Reds are behind by a run or two, and the rest of the bullpen is used, the Reds have almost no chance of staying in the game. I think the lineup is also alot better right now with Valentin, Kepp, Hamilton, Hopper all playing alot. We actually have alot of guys on base now, which allows Griffey, Dunn, and Phillips to be more effective. We don't seem to be depending on the HR to score all of our runs because we have a lineup full of guys that are putting the bat on the ball and getting on base. SP is the biggest question mark right now, after Harang and Arroyo. I think Ramirez and Livingston can give us good starts, but it is so important for the Reds to have the lead after the SP leaves the game because of the bullpen.

[BEETTLEBUG]

TRUE ALSO

[Vada Pinson Fan]

I'd like to see the Reds go 29-12 or 28-11 to reach .500 but I would love to see a 10 game or more winning streak happen now. Not to entertain ideas of a possible shot at the playoffs (won't happen) but to give this team more proof of what it can do and be a playoff contender in 2008 with a few solid acquisitions/subtractions this off-season. This team has a .500 record against teams this year with a winning percentage of .500 or better! Imagine if this season had the Reds with a record 15 games over .500 against those teams with a losing record so far. This team (minus woeful bullpen pitchers...we know who they are) will compete for the division title in 2008 "IF" the attitude/desire around the team turns from an accepting/blase few, into a tired of losing seasons, hungry for victories, team.

I have been impressed by Pete Mackanin. Making this team take fielding practice, et al. was a needed move and a common sense move by Pete. I think he has the leadership needed to bring the Reds back to a "year in and year out" winning team. The Reds minor league teams have good to great talent. Now we need Castellini to do his part and ante up in payroll comparable to his NL Central opponents! Add the talent needed to compete and the Reds fans (and those fence sitters) will support this team just as the Brewers fanbase is doing for Milwaukee.

The worst thing that can happen to this Reds team is to finish strong and then have Krivsky and Castellini sit on their hands this winter and think this team doesn't need an outside infusion of Major League talent. I do give kudos to Wayne Krivsky and his staff for the acquisition of Matt Maloney in the Kyle Lohse trade with Philadelphia. Continue to strengthen the Reds and their minor league teams w/o causing damage by making poorly thought out trades. The future, at this point in time, is looking better for the REDS!!!

[Vada Pinson Fan]

Here is a question for anyone out there. How hard is it to pick up another pitch? Does it take years to be able to throw that pitch at anything close to major-league level? You read all the time about pitchers only having 2 pitches, so it must not be that easy. I really don't know, so if anyone has any thoughts on this feel free to post them.

What it takes Dave, IMO, is a pitcher willing to go outside of his comfort zone and be agreeable to being taught a new pitch, hanging with it, giving plenty of time to perfect it. It also takes the pitcher having the physical ability to throw the new pitch with the correct grip, arm slot and necessary velocity of that particular pitch. Now why can one pitcher throw a breaking ball with such a bend to it and the next guy can't? I for one believe if the physical talents are approximately the same; they can given patience, time and the desire to keep trying, regardless while in the minor leagues. In the major leagues winning comes at such a high cost to ownership, pitchers can't experiment with the game on the line or get knocked around and destroy your ERA and expect to stay with the parent club. That's why Homer Bailey must learn another pitch or two with control. Wayne Krivsky said he wasn't ready for the longest time, but I didn't believe him. I WAS WRONG!!! Right now Bailey is a thrower and a darn good thrower in the minors. When he gets that next pitch learned and controlled- LOOK OUT!!! Unless you have two outstanding pitches in your arsenal (let's say a Mario Soto fastball and change up) you had better work on another pitch, at least.

Dave, you asked if it takes years to throw a new pitch at a major league level and to perfect it, in most pitchers I believe it does. Give me a pitcher who can pitch in and out, up and down with control and know when to throw it ala Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine. Major league hitters can hit fastballs under 98+ miles an hour all day long but if you hit your spots that 88mph pitcher can win the Cy Young. If I were a pro pitching coach, I'd teach and practice location first and the reasons for doing that. Then I teach what the minor league pitcher doesn't have already in his repertoire.

[GoReds33]

Yes they can. We need as many cgs from Harang as possible though. I see Harang third in the cy young by the way.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

I have been impressed by Pete Mackanin. Making this team take fielding practice.. was a needed move and a common sense move by Pete. I think he has the leadership needed to bring the Reds back to a "year in and year out" winning team. ...... Now we need Castellini to do his part and ante up in payroll comparable to his NL Central opponents! Add the talent needed to compete and the Reds fans (and those fence sitters) will support this team just as the Brewers fanbase is doing for Milwaukee.

The worst thing that can happen to this Reds team is to finish strong and then have Krivsky and Castellini sit on their hands this winter and think this team doesn't need an outside infusion of Major League talent. I do give kudos to Wayne Krivsky and his staff ........ The future, at this point in time, is looking better for the REDS!!!

VPF, you have made intelligent and thoughtful statements. Everyone needs to trust WK's abilities to build a team. He needs more than the one full and one partial year he has had so far.

As for Pete, he is the manager who can lead this team year in and year out. The players play their best for him because they know he rewards excellence and does not tolerate less than 100% effort. No one can do a better job with this bull pen. He keeps the arms fresh and ready to go by using everyone as much as possible. That is how he has managed so well at every other level.

[jmac]

Wasnt pete's only prior managing as interim with the pirates ?
If so, that would be bad if you only had one real shot at managing and it was with Pitt.

[DntKnw]

Reds are 6-3 in their last 9 . . . need to go 25-11 to get to .500 . . . it's Ramirez v.Carlyle tomorrow to finish out Atlanta for the year . . .

Has anyone noticed that we are 5-1 against Atlanta this year??

[Muggerd]

Reds are 6-3 in their last 9 . . . need to go 25-11 to get to .500 . . . it's Ramirez v.Carlyle tomorrow to finish out Atlanta for the year . . .

Has anyone noticed that we are 5-1 against Atlanta this year??

I noticed ;)

[jmac]

I noticed ;)

Bet the braves have too :beerme:

[Degenerate39]

Reds are 6-3 in their last 9 . . . need to go 25-11 to get to .500 . . . it's Ramirez v.Carlyle tomorrow to finish out Atlanta for the year . . .

Has anyone noticed that we are 5-1 against Atlanta this year??

A lot of my friends are Braves fans so I noticed.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Wasnt pete's only prior managing as interim with the pirates ?
If so, that would be bad if you only had one real shot at managing and it was with Pitt.

You are correct about Pete's big league managing career. However, he has managed almost 2,000 games at various minor league levels and in Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Mexico, etc. Pete won the Caribbean World Series. He has been Minor League Manager of the Year. He has the experience to handle the players in the Big Leagues.

[jmac]

You are correct about Pete's big league managing career. However, he has managed almost 2,000 games at various minor league levels and in Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Mexico, etc. Pete won the Caribbean World Series. He has been Minor League Manager of the Year. He has the experience to handle the players in the Big Leagues.

Thanks for info.

[Vada Pinson Fan]

VPF, you have made intelligent and thoughtful statements. Everyone needs to trust WK's abilities to build a team. He needs more than the one full and one partial year he has had so far.

ThirdBaseCoach, I appreciate the kind words. Thank You!!!
You show fine recognition of Mackanin's managing abilities and I appreciate reading your posts as well!!!

[quote]As for Pete, he is the manager who can lead this team year in and year out. The players play their best for him because they know he rewards excellence and does not tolerate less than 100% effort. No one can do a better job with this bull pen. He keeps the arms fresh and ready to go by using everyone as much as possible. That is how he has managed so well at every other level.

I agree with you: Even when Stanton relieved Arroyo in the 6th inning (My wife and I were there at the game) a sense of "Oh no, here we go again!" But tonight it wasn't that way. Stanton did a good job and that may just come from the confidence Pete Mackanin is showing in him.
TBC- Hang in there and wave our boys home!!!:beerme:

[ThirdBaseCoach]

VPF,

here is a Weathers quote that Hal McCoy picked up to give everyone more insight into Pete's ability.

"The real good thing about Mackanin is that if you sit around and wait to get a guy into the perfect situation, his part of the game, he might sit for five, six or seven games," said Weathers. "By the time it's his time, he's rusty. Pete hasn't done that like it was done earlier in the year."

Pete knows how to run a bullpen, for sure. He utilizes a similar philosophy with position players as well.

Coach

[jmac]

VPF,

here is a Weathers quote that Hal McCoy picked up to give everyone more insight into Pete's ability.

"The real good thing about Mackanin is that if you sit around and wait to get a guy into the perfect situation, his part of the game, he might sit for five, six or seven games," said Weathers. "By the time it's his time, he's rusty. Pete hasn't done that like it was done earlier in the year."

Pete knows how to run a bullpen, for sure. He utilizes a similar philosophy with position players as well.

Coach
Good quote !

[Redlegs]

So far, so good.

[DntKnw]

So far, so good.


It's now 24-11 to .500 . . . 7-3 in the last ten . . . 6-1 v. Braves for the year . . . we passed the Astros for fourth place in the Central.

Marlins in town . . . Reds are 1-3 v. the Fish (all in Miami) . . . been outscored 13-35 (courtesy of Lohse, Livingston and Arroyo) . . . but the Fish are losers of 8 of 10 and are a 1/2 game behind the Reds.

It's the Hammer v. Willis . . . Belisle v. Mitre . . . Livingston v. Barone.

[Oh, and we're still only 1.5 games out of the race for the 2nd pick in the draft . . . three games separate 10 teams for that 2nd pick . . . parity?]

[Muggerd]

Id rather have the 2nd pick than a disappointing run for 3rd place

[I(heart)Freel]

Id rather have the 2nd pick than a disappointing run for 3rd place

Moreso, I'd like to get the guys we're considering in 2008 some MLB experience. Get the butterflies out now.

I love me some Hatteberg, but he should start getting used to being Mr. LH PH. Bring up Votto and get him in.

Get Bailey healthy and get him back.

Try switching Weathers and Burton a bit, to see how they react. Bring up McBeth and see how he likes the 7th inning.

Apologize to Cueto about the demotion, bring him back up to AAA and tell him he's in the running for a spot start for the big club in September.

Tell Bruce to study the schedule and make some educated guesses about when he might give Junior some breathers (i.e day game after night games) after the rosters expand.

Any others I'm missing? Maybe Coffey, to see if he's a lost cause?

These things I consider to be WAY more important than a strong finish.

[ChatterRed]

Might a strong finish help with free agent signings this offseason? If the Reds have one of the best second halves, they could be deemed an up and coming team only in need of a few spare parts.

[Muggerd]

Might a strong finish help with free agent signings this offseason? If the Reds have one of the best second halves, they could be deemed an up and coming team only in need of a few spare parts.

Id imagine money speaks louder than anything

[Vada Pinson Fan]

Thanks Coach,

Similar statements to those I've heard on TV from other Reds. PM is utilizing this roster in a very productive manner, although Stanton was up to his USUAL poor pitching last night after a one game reprieve. It will be interesting to see what Castellini & Krivsky have in mind concerning the fate of Pete Mackanin for 2008.

I had forgotten this: The Reds went on a successful winning percentage after-
1.) Bob Boone was fired and interim MGR. Dave Miley's Reds performed better than they had under Boone's direction.

2.) Dave Miley was fired and interim MGR. Jerry Narron's Reds performed better than they had under Miley's direction.

3.) Jerry Narron was fired and interim MGR. Pete Mackanin's Reds performed better than they had under Narron's direction.

Source- I believe I heard Chris Welsh and Thom Brennaman talking about this during the Reds-Braves series this week.

Conclusion- What's up with our Redlegs? The Reds now have a winning record this year against teams with a .500+ record. A pitiful 15 or so games under .500 against teams playing below.500 .

Do these players need Mackanin, LaRussa, Brenley, Girardi.... or some couch time with a shrink? You Gotta Love'em!!!

[mound_patrol]

I think they're playing better inspite of what Mack is doing. I think they are winning because guys like bray and burton are shortening the games in which the Reds are winning. I've even been impressed with majic man since he came back up. Hate how Mack keeps taking him out when he's being duckfarted to death.

[SMcGavin]

Thanks Coach,

Similar statements to those I've heard on TV from other Reds. PM is utilizing this roster in a very productive manner, although Stanton was up to his USUAL poor pitching last night after a one game reprieve. It will be interesting to see what Castellini & Krivsky have in mind concerning the fate of Pete Mackanin for 2008.

I had forgotten this: The Reds went on a successful winning percentage after-
1.) Bob Boone was fired and interim MGR. Dave Miley's Reds performed better than they had under Boone's direction.

2.) Dave Miley was fired and interim MGR. Jerry Narron's Reds performed better than they had under Miley's direction.

3.) Jerry Narron was fired and interim MGR. Pete Mackanin's Reds performed better than they had under Narron's direction.

Source- I believe I heard Chris Welsh and Thom Brennaman talking about this during the Reds-Braves series this week.

Conclusion- What's up with our Redlegs? The Reds now have a winning record this year against teams with a .500+ record. A pitiful 15 or so games under .500 against teams playing below.500 .

Do these players need Mackanin, LaRussa, Brenley, Girardi.... or some couch time with a shrink? You Gotta Love'em!!!


Common misconception around here, Dave Miley actually went 22-35 in his interim year, worse than Boone's 46-58. You are correct about Narron though who put together a 46-46 stretch after Miley's 27-43.

[Screwball]

Conclusion- What's up with our Redlegs? The Reds now have a winning record this year against teams with a .500+ record. A pitiful 15 or so games under .500 against teams playing below.500 .


I've said it before and I'll say it again: this team plays to its competition. They'll play a good team like the Angels, Indians, or Braves as though they belong, but then they'll turn around and get swept by the pitching starved Nationals.

[Redlegs]

Make that 21-11.

[DntKnw]

Make that 21-11.

6.5 out . . . winners of 8 of 10 . . . going to Pittsburgh who had to get 14.2 innings out of its bullpen this weekend with a DH coming up on Tuesday. It's Arroyo & Ramirez on Tuesday, Harang on Wednesday and Belisle on Thursday.

The Cards are 2 back and are at Houston . . . the Brewers are 1.5 back and are at Chicago. The weekend has the Reds at St. Louis, the Astros at Chicago, and the Pirates at Milwaukee.

It's going to be a very interesting week in the NL Central.

[GoReds33]

6.5 out . . . winners of 8 of 10 . . . going to Pittsburgh who had to get 14.2 innings out of its bullpen this weekend with a DH coming up on Tuesday. It's Arroyo & Ramirez on Tuesday, Harang on Wednesday and Belisle on Thursday.

The Cards are 2 back and are at Houston . . . the Brewers are 1.5 back and are at Chicago. The weekend has the Reds at St. Louis, the Astros at Chicago, and the Pirates at Milwaukee.

It's going to be a very interesting week in the NL Central.Very intresting should be an understatment. Lets hope the Reds can make it that way.

[Redlegs]

. . . going to Pittsburgh who had to get 14.2 innings out of its bullpen this weekend with a DH coming up on Tuesday.
Excellent, excellent observation. :thumbup:

[SMcGavin]

6.5 out . . . winners of 8 of 10 . . . going to Pittsburgh who had to get 14.2 innings out of its bullpen this weekend with a DH coming up on Tuesday. It's Arroyo & Ramirez on Tuesday, Harang on Wednesday and Belisle on Thursday.

The Cards are 2 back and are at Houston . . . the Brewers are 1.5 back and are at Chicago. The weekend has the Reds at St. Louis, the Astros at Chicago, and the Pirates at Milwaukee.

It's going to be a very interesting week in the NL Central.

I assume it's Shearn on Friday at STL, but who goes Saturday? I'm guessing it's Arroyo on 3 days rest. This doubleheader is really not what we needed when we only have 2 real starters.