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View Full Version : What i notice about Eddie..



redsfan4445
08-22-2007, 12:40 PM
When you watch him pitch, he looks like he is throwing with a stiff forearm. Like he is afraid to let loose, thinking he might re-injure his arm...This is why his ball stays flat and he has no movement.. cant belive our wonderful pitching coaches and that great bullpen pitching coach HUME doesnt see this.. oh i forget, he is just in the pen to pick up the phone..:thumbdown

nate
08-22-2007, 12:47 PM
When you watch him pitch, he looks like he is throwing with a stiff forearm. Like he is afraid to let loose, thinking he might re-injure his arm...This is why his ball stays flat and he has no movement.. cant belive our wonderful pitching coaches and that great bullpen pitching coach HUME doesnt see this.. oh i forget, he is just in the pen to pick up the phone..:thumbdown

How do you know that they don't see it and are working to correct it?

Or maybe its something that you don't see?

PuffyPig
08-22-2007, 12:54 PM
When you watch him pitch, he looks like he is throwing with a stiff forearm. Like he is afraid to let loose, thinking he might re-injure his arm...This is why his ball stays flat and he has no movement.. cant belive our wonderful pitching coaches and that great bullpen pitching coach HUME doesnt see this..


Have you ever considered the possibility that you are simply smarter than the Reds management?

Perhaps you are expecting too much from them.

You simply can't expect major leaguers to have your depth of experience and talent.

redsfan4445
08-22-2007, 01:29 PM
wow.. sorry for commenting.. all i was wondering if anybody else saw this.. obviously saying anything on redszone is a SIN

Unassisted
08-22-2007, 01:36 PM
My reaction to your observation is a bit more gentle, redsfan4445. :)

Maybe the surgery made Eddie's forearm stiff? If muscles or tendons got shortened, it would be reasonable to expect a loss of flexibility. It could be that Eddie must re-learn how to pitch with some new limitation.

nate
08-22-2007, 01:38 PM
wow.. sorry for commenting.. all i was wondering if anybody else saw this.. obviously saying anything on redszone is a SIN

We're all going to hell!

MartyFan
08-22-2007, 01:42 PM
How do you know that they don't see it and are working to correct it?

Or maybe its something that you don't see?

Because it's the Reds!!!

They have no idea what they are doing...haven't you been getting the memo's?

nate
08-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Because it's the Reds!!!

They have no idea what they are doing...haven't you been getting the memo's?

Most definitely.

Should they cease, I'll prepare for the end of time.

redsmetz
08-22-2007, 02:55 PM
wow.. sorry for commenting.. all i was wondering if anybody else saw this.. obviously saying anything on redszone is a SIN

Actually, you said this:


When you watch him pitch, he looks like he is throwing with a stiff forearm. Like he is afraid to let loose, thinking he might re-injure his arm...This is why his ball stays flat and he has no movement.. cant belive our wonderful pitching coaches and that great bullpen pitching coach HUME doesnt see this.. oh i forget, he is just in the pen to pick up the phone..

There is a difference there.

Someone else mentioned he may need to learn how to pitch again. This morning's Enquirer commented about Guardado and the staff has asked if he's experiencing pain. They explored whether he needed to go back on the DL. Mackanin himself suggested that's he's having relearn things.

Personally I think folks reacted to your automatic assumption that the Reds coaching staff didn't have a clue in noticing what you say you're seeing. I think that's premature myself - I don't think there's any question they're trying to figure it out and help Eddie work through it.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 02:57 PM
He's old, coming off surgery, has a rotator cuff problem that has never been repaired. Washed up is the phrase that comes to mind when I see Eddie.

BRM
08-22-2007, 02:59 PM
He's old, coming off surgery, has a rotator cuff problem that has never been repaired. Washed up is the phrase that comes to mind when I see Eddie.

Wayne sees a potential late inning reliever apparently.

cincrazy
08-22-2007, 03:10 PM
I was at the game last night, near the field during BP, and I asked Eddie how he was feeling. He said, "I'm getting there," but he had this look on his face that said he really didn't know. I feel bad for the guy, he's a great guy, but I'm afraid he's done.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 03:10 PM
Wayne sees a potential late inning reliever apparently.Wayne seems to see a lot of things that no one else does.

BRM
08-22-2007, 03:11 PM
Wayne seems to see a lot of things that no one else does.

He's a visionary.

paulrichjr
08-22-2007, 03:14 PM
Wayne seems to see a lot of things that no one else does.

I agree! The potential that Bray, Burton, Hamilton, Phillips, Keppinger, Arroyo....has, when no one else did.

Always Red
08-22-2007, 03:17 PM
Wayne seems to see a lot of things that no one else does.

Well, there's an option on Eddie for next year, right?

He's been hurt, there are only 6 weeks left in the season, and the Reds need to see if he is going to be able to help for next year or not.

That's really all I see with this. Kriv can say today on the radio that they're still playing to win the pennant this year, but pitching Guardado and Saarloos shows that he's really trying to see if they have anything left in the tank, for next year.

It's pretty apparent that neither of them do. If it's injury for Eddie, then get him back down and rehabbed, and then give him another shot.

BRM
08-22-2007, 03:47 PM
I agree! The potential that Bray, Burton, Hamilton, Phillips, Keppinger, Arroyo....has, when no one else did.

Absolutely! Don't forget about Cormier, Stanton, Saarloos, Santos, and Majewski. Picking them up was nothing short of amazing.

KronoRed
08-22-2007, 03:52 PM
He's old, coming off surgery, has a rotator cuff problem that has never been repaired. Washed up is the phrase that comes to mind when I see Eddie.

It's sad too, he has no business out there so far

nate
08-22-2007, 04:30 PM
Absolutely! Don't forget about Cormier, Stanton, Saarloos, Santos, and Majewski. Picking them up was nothing short of amazing.

How can we forget?

You remind us every other post.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 04:37 PM
see if he is going to be able to help ... help what? Old with low velocity, and coming off of a major injury is not a recipe for a lot of future success. The fact that one would consider EG or KS as potential help in the future is just an example of how bereft the Reds are of talent and how clueless the FO is on how to build a good bullpen.

BRM
08-22-2007, 04:40 PM
How can we forget?

You remind us every other post.

I'm afraid you have mistaken me for someone else.

Roy Tucker
08-22-2007, 05:02 PM
I was at 8/10 game against the Padres that Guardado pitched in. I think it was his first or second game back so I watched him pretty closely.

He was going through the normal progression of warming up. I watched the radar speed and he started in the 60's and ramped up to the mid-80's. It looked like he aired it out for one pitch and made a big-time wince and held his arm like something popped. I thought he was going to call out the trainer but he just threw a couple more mid-70's pitches and then went on.

I fully expected to see something about him going back on the DL the next day from the look of pain that was on his face. Guardado has guts, I'll give him that.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 05:06 PM
Guardado has guts, I'll give him that.no one would question that. He is still pitching with a bad shoulder that has never been repaired.

nate
08-22-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm afraid you have mistaken me for someone else.

Sorry, BRM...it was a case of mistaken identity!

edabbs44
08-22-2007, 05:19 PM
I agree! The potential that Bray, Burton, Hamilton, Phillips, Keppinger, Arroyo....has, when no one else did.

All Wayne has shown so far is that he isn't afraid to take chances on low risk players. His job calls for a bit more than that.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 05:20 PM
All Wayne has shown so far is that he isn't afraid to take chances on low risk players. His job calls for a bit more than that.Increasing run differential is the trick if you want to win consistently. WK has pretty much tread water for 2 years. Maybe year three is the leap forward but at this point it is hard to see that coming in 2008.

BRM
08-22-2007, 05:41 PM
Sorry, BRM...it was a case of mistaken identity!

No problem. I get that a lot. :)

Always Red
08-22-2007, 05:47 PM
... help what? Old with low velocity, and coming off of a major injury is not a recipe for a lot of future success. The fact that one would consider EG or KS as potential help in the future is just an example of how bereft the Reds are of talent and how clueless the FO is on how to build a good bullpen.

Ahh, you're right, he had surgery...so let's just throw him on the scrap heap and move on. Next victim!

You totally skipped over my point that EG has an option on his contract for next year, the Reds need to see if he can pitch, and make a decision to see if he can do it or not. Yes, it appears as if he is showing that he is toast. Or, more likely, that he is still injured. It's pretty obvious what you think!

Velocity? Yes, that helped a lot in the BP this year, eh? At one point, we had an entire stable full of studs who could throw 94-95, and yet get no one out. I'm more interested in pitchers than I am throwers. Guardado has a history of knowing how to pitch; in my mind it's worth a look to see if his arm can still do it.

I'm not very enamored of this FO either, but to suggest that they are totally clueless is actually the pot calling the kettle black. I'm baffled by some of what they do, but am willing to concede that they know far more about baseball than I do. My frustration stems mostly from Krivsky's message- which is very mixed. Yes, I know, Krivsky owes me no explanation of what he's doing. But- if he explained a few things, folks who really cared about this team would be more patient with him.

This year is over, has been since Memorial Day weekend. EG and KS are here to see if they have anything left, to see if another team might be desperate enough to swap even a single A-level player for them. I seriously doubt that we see either of them again after September, especially if EG's arm doesn't recover.

This is a try-out, these next 6 weeks. Yes, Pete is going to try to win as many games as he can to gain a job, but the team needs to find out who is going to be able to help next year. All the guys with options are going to be either here or in Louisville next year. It's the guys who have no options or are at the end of their contracts that need to be decided on. That's part of the business. IMO, if the Reds are still in the running, no way do EG or KS even step on the field. I think Dumatrait was brought up because he has no option for next year; the Reds wanted to see if he had enough to do it on the MLB level.

We squawk and squawk here about building for the future. Part of that is clearing guys out to make room, and that means seeing if other teams are willing to part with anything, even the proverbial bag of balls for them. The bullpen is looking up, IMO. Burton, Bray and Weathers are steady; not spectacular, but steady. Majewski is looking better than he has in a year. Cooter will be back, and I think Coffey is going to recover and pitch like he did all of last year. And McBeth and Salmon are also in the running.

redsmetz
08-22-2007, 06:24 PM
We do squawk and squawk and yet history has shown us that some players who do horribly at some times, later have very good years. I mentioned in my post about the 1930 Reds that when we picked up Paul Derringer in 1933, he lost 25 games, going 7-27 over all that year. The following year he won 15 games for, but lost 21. And yet, he went on to be a very good pitcher for us. He won 20 games in four more seasons and just missed it in one more. As Johnny Footstool noted this morning, the Redszone telegraph wires would have lit up like Christmas over that!

I think too often, we assume poor years mean someone is always destined to poor performance. Sometimes that true, but it's not a predetermined fact.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 06:29 PM
Ahh, you're right, he had surgery...so let's just throw him on the scrap heap and move on.
He is 37 coming off TJ, has rotator cuff that has never been fixed, let spend $3M+ on him. He's an injury waiting to happen that is going to pitch til his arm falls off in hope the Reds are dumb enough to pick up the option.

EG was a fine relief pitcher when he had a healthy elbow and shoulder. He lost his velocity a couple of years ago when the shoulder problem happened, now the elbow has robbed him of his command, he is a poor bet going forward.

No one wants to address the fact that he has a shoulder that has never been repaired.

redsmetz
08-22-2007, 06:44 PM
He is 37 coming off TJ, has rotator cuff that has never been fixed, let spend $3M+ on him. He's an injury waiting to happen that is going to pitch til his arm falls off in hope the Reds are dumb enough to pick up the option.

EG was a fine relief pitcher when he had a healthy elbow and shoulder. He lost his velocity a couple of years ago when the shoulder problem happened, now the elbow has robbed him of his command, he is a poor bet going forward.

No one wants to address the fact that he has a shoulder that has never been repaired.

But you've made Always Reds point - if he's not better, we need to know that now. If so, we don't exercise the option. We can always bring him back on some different deal if he improves. But we need to know that before we can intelligently consider exercising that option.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 06:48 PM
But you've made Always Reds point - if he's not better, we need to know that now.You missed the point entirely. His getting better means little because he is a huge injury risk moving forward, exactly the kind of guy the Reds should not rely on.

jojo
08-22-2007, 06:57 PM
You missed the point entirely. His getting better means little because he is a huge injury risk moving forward, exactly the kind of guy the Reds should not rely on.

yep

Always Red
08-22-2007, 06:59 PM
No one wants to address the fact that he has a shoulder that has never been repaired.

Nope, actually I agree with you, there, flyer. And it's probably due to the shoulder that he put more stress on the elbow? Maybe, anyway.

You can look it up, because I'm too lazy to do so, but I know I posted it this spring, that Eddie would never be the same again, and counting on him for this year was pure folly.

But it doesn't mean that you don't give him a shot, especially after coming off an injury. And most especially because your team is out of the running for a pennant. Maybe the Reds did that, over the last 2 weeks, and now his shot is over. Whatever, it's clear that he's not yet ready. And he might be done.

I'm just trying to explain, maybe to myself (?), WHY it is that EG and KS are pitching right now for the Reds. Because we're really not playing to win, put planning for the future, and the first thing to be done (pitching wise) is to see if these guys are going to be in the mix.

I do agree with you that both EG and KS are done, at least with the Reds.

Now, if Saarloos turns around, ala Paul Derringer, and wins 20 games in a year or two (probably for Dave Duncan!), who is to blame? Who missed on him? No one. Like Redsmetz says, sometimes crap happens. ;)

Always Red
08-22-2007, 07:02 PM
You missed the point entirely. His getting better means little because he is a huge injury risk moving forward, exactly the kind of guy the Reds should not rely on.

If this is entirely true, then I agree with you. Why hasn't he had shoulder surgery, if his shoulder is so bad? It seems to me a guy like Eddie Guardado, a gritty competitor, would do anything he had to do to be sound again?

Is there any proof that his shoulder is so bad? No snarkiness, just asking.:)

flyer85
08-22-2007, 07:04 PM
The EG thing really highlights what for me are weakness in the organization, they struggle in the areas of risk assessment and risk mitigation.

flyer85
08-22-2007, 07:06 PM
Is there any proof that his shoulder is so bad? No snarkiness, just asking.:)it was thel injury that robbed him of his 93-94 mph fastball back in 2005, he chose not to have it surgically repaired. I wouldn't be shocked if he has torn rotator cuff and frayed labrum.

Always Red
08-22-2007, 07:23 PM
it was thel injury that robbed him of his 93-94 mph fastball back in 2005, he chose not to have it surgically repaired. I wouldn't be shocked if he has torn rotator cuff and frayed labrum.

If so, why wouldn't he choose to have the thing repaired? Is your diagnosis a guess? :dunno:

flyer85
08-22-2007, 07:26 PM
If so, why wouldn't he choose to have the thing repaired? Is your diagnosis a guess? :dunno:because the rehab from those surgeries is longer and much less certain. Wilson decided to try and pitch through it until he blew out his elbow.

GAC
08-22-2007, 09:22 PM
I agree with what Brantley said concerning Eddie the other night during the game when they brought him during the 14-4 blowout by Atlanta.....

Those are the type of situations when they are going to pitch him (or if we hold a huge lead).

They have to come to a decision on Eddie concerning his option for next year.... should they, or should they not, pick it up? And the only way they are going to find out if he can recover from the surgery is pitch him when it is expediant for them to do so.

I personally doubt they will exercise it with the possible emergence of kids like Burton and Bray.

redsmetz
08-22-2007, 09:44 PM
I agree with what Brantley said concerning Eddie the other night during the game when they brought him during the 14-4 blowout by Atlanta.....

Those are the type of situations when they are going to pitch him (or if we hold a huge lead).

They have to come to a decision on Eddie concerning his option for next year.... should they, or should they not, pick it up? And the only way they are going to find out if he can recover from the surgery is pitch him when it is expediant for them to do so.

I personally doubt they will exercise it with the possible emergence of kids like Burton and Bray.

So how about Eddie Guardado as bullpen coach? Retire and come on as a coach.

GAC
08-23-2007, 08:44 AM
He's struggling, that is for sure. No denying it. But to say it's because he is still injured when none of us are in sports medicine or have ever examined him, is nothing more than conjecture.

Some seem to think they are more qualified/experienced then all the medical personal that examined, diagnosed, operated on, and been involved in his rehab. And that they are all so incompetent (knowing he is still injured) they are still gonna throw him out there. It's ridiculous.

If you'll notice, they are only pitching him in certain situations (either in blowouts or games where we have a comfortable lead). Just as Krivsky said the other day in the 1530 interview, and I wholeheartedly agree - after major surgery of that type, the last thing to come back is command.

They only have several weeks of baseball left. They have to see, versus ML level pithcing, whether EG is gonna make sufficient progress at this level and is worht exercising the option on for '08. It's that simple. Nothing more.

GAC
08-23-2007, 07:59 PM
dbl post.