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View Full Version : What are we seeing?



reds44
08-23-2007, 03:15 AM
As a fan of a bad team, you are always looking for the positivies of a "lost" season. No matter how hard I try to convince myself we can make a playoff run, it's not going to happen. We'd honestly half to rip off about 10-12 in a row (just can't win series anymore), and it's something IMO this team is incapable of doing.

This team is 6 games over .500, and has the best record in the central since McKanin took over. That's good, and I always would rather be winning then losing, but does it mean anything?

I'd love to be able to put the blame of our bad start on Narron and the black holes in the lineup. I'd love to think that with Keppinger and Javy in the lineup it makes us when if the best offenses in baseball opposed to Seabass and Ross. I'd love to think that Burton, Bray, and Weathers are beginning to line the bullpen up nicely, but there is something deep down in side me that just won't let me do it.

We've seen this before. We've seen a manger get fired, and an interm manager take over a dead team and play semi-well with them. Jerry did that, and two years later he found himself fired. I like Pete McKanin. He's a witty guy and he is a great speaker, but I don't believe if he took over in May instead of July this team would be in a playoff hunt. Maybe I shouldn't be so pessimistic because of what went on in the past, but fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Fool me three times and I'm an idiot.

I still have very little faith in what Krivsky is doing. I have little faith that Adam Dunn will be re-signed. One of the reasons I am pessimistic is because this team has 5 real pitchers on the entire team. One of whom is David Weathers, who you can count on for 2008 at most. This team won't play 6 games over with 2 starting pitchers. It's impossible to sustain that. I have little faith in Krivsky's ability to pick up anything then off of the scrap heap. Krivsky's good pickups (with the exception of Arroyo) have all come off the scrap heap. Eventually you have to do something better then that.

Cueto, Homer, Bruce, and Votto are all on there way, this I realize. However is it really fair to bank you're future on 4 guys under the age of 24? Is it really a good idea to expect Cueto and Homer to fill 2 of your 3 missing spots next year? I remember two stud hitting prospects coming up in the organaztion about 5 years. One is in Washington, and the other half the fan base wishes was in Washington. Dunn and Kearns.

What we are seeing will be answered in the future. Hopefully the future is better then the past.

ThirdBaseCoach
08-23-2007, 08:32 AM
1. As a fan of a bad team, you are always looking for the positivies of a "lost" season.......2. This team is 6 games over .500, and has the best record in the central since McKanin took over. That's good, and I always would rather be winning then losing, but does it mean anything?......... 3. I'd love to think that Burton, Bray, and Weathers are beginning to line the bullpen up nicely, but there is something deep down in side me that just won't let me do it........4. We've seen this before. We've seen a manger get fired, and an interm manager take over a dead team and play semi-well with them. Jerry did that, and two years later he found himself fired. 5. I like Pete McKanin. He's a witty guy and he is a great speaker, but I don't believe if he took over in May instead of July this team would be in a playoff hunt. Maybe I shouldn't be so pessimistic because of what went on in the past.....6. I still have very little faith in what Krivsky is doing...... I have little faith in Krivsky's ability to pick up anything then off of the scrap heap. Krivsky's good pickups (with the exception of Arroyo) have all come off the scrap heap. Eventually you have to do something better then that......7. What we are seeing will be answered in the future. Hopefully the future is better then the past.

1. a season is never lost, every game is important, if not to get to the playoffs, then to build on positives for the future.
2. of course it means something. it means that Pete Mackanin can have a positive impact on how the team plays as a whole, and how individuals play up to their potential.
3. bray, burton, and weathers are not a mirage. Pete knows how to manage a bullpen. go with it.
4. past performance (poor or otherwise) does not necessarily predict the future. every day has a new set of variables with which the team and its manager must deal.
5. Pete Mackanin is a great guy for this team, or any other team. If the reds do not keep him, another team will. let go of the past.
6. have faith in WK. He has not had two "full" years yet. It takes several to turn around and build a team.
7. Have faith in a positive future. it is more fun and you will live a better life.

durl
08-23-2007, 09:01 AM
6. have faith in WK. He has not had two "full" years yet. It takes several to turn around and build a team.

Great point about Krivsky. He was brought in because he has experience working with a smaller payroll and thinking long-term to develop a winning team. We know WK can find talent. I'm hoping that Castellini will see that Krivsky has done a good job of finding those diamonds in the rough but then realize that there comes a time to lay down a little extra cash to buy what you can't find on the "scrap heap" and bring in starting pitching and middle relief.

fadetoblack2880
08-23-2007, 10:59 AM
1. a season is never lost, every game is important, if not to get to the playoffs, then to build on positives for the future.
2. of course it means something. it means that Pete Mackanin can have a positive impact on how the team plays as a whole, and how individuals play up to their potential.
3. bray, burton, and weathers are not a mirage. Pete knows how to manage a bullpen. go with it.
4. past performance (poor or otherwise) does not necessarily predict the future. every day has a new set of variables with which the team and its manager must deal.
5. Pete Mackanin is a great guy for this team, or any other team. If the reds do not keep him, another team will. let go of the past.
6. have faith in WK. He has not had two "full" years yet. It takes several to turn around and build a team.
7. Have faith in a positive future. it is more fun and you will live a better life.


Season's lost once the Reds are mathmatically eliminated. Luckily, they play in the Central which should keep them from being eliminated until at least mid-to-late September.

ThirdBaseCoach
08-23-2007, 11:12 AM
Season's lost once the Reds are mathmatically eliminated.....

FTB,

repeating now, the season is not lost because you have to build for the future. if one continues to whine and moan, then what's the use?

jmac
08-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Burton/Bray, yes we have seen it before but not with these two.
These guys have the stuff to be an excellent backend in 08.
I think alot of times the mngr gets too much credit.
Would Joe G have done more than Pete ? Or what about Lou ?
Till Burton started developing, I dont think Joe Torre could have done anything in the first part of season.
Rather than wins/losses, I often look at styles.
I like the way Pete handles the pitching staff.
We definitely need help in rotation though.That much is clear.

fadetoblack2880
08-23-2007, 12:30 PM
FTB,

repeating now, the season is not lost because you have to build for the future. if one continues to whine and moan, then what's the use?
Been "building" for the last seven years. I'm not whining, it's fact. For every step forward, there have been two steps back. Unless Bob opens his wallet a little more this team will not get anywhere within the next two seasons. Bailey, Votto, Cueto, and Bruce will not be saviors for this franchise once they make it to the Major League level. It takes time. I know you didn't state that they will come up and automatically turn this team around, but alot of others seem to think this will happen. Of the four of them, Votto is really the only one who seems legitimetly ready for a Major League roster spot and he single handedly will not make that much of a difference. There are way too many holes on this team right now and unless some more money is spent they will never be better than a mediocre organization. Oh, and trading Dunn will not make this team better unless they recieve Major League ready players, whether it be position players or a couple pitchers. Until Bruce proves that he can hit Major League pitching, and he will, keep Dunn. Paying Dunn what he's under contract for next season is no worse than paying Milton $22 million to consistantly lose and stay on the disabled list. No one seems to see that fact...

jmac
08-23-2007, 01:04 PM
Of the four of them, Votto is really the only one who seems legitimetly ready for a Major League roster spot and he single handedly will not make that much of a difference.
Until Bruce proves that he can hit Major League pitching, and he will, keep Dunn. Paying Dunn what he's under contract for next season is no worse than paying Milton $22 million to consistantly lose and stay on the disabled list. No one seems to see that fact...

Where Votto could really help is stengthing bench with Hatt.
Bringing Hatt off late in game is a plus.
Dunn, agree with assessment.

AmarilloRed
08-23-2007, 02:18 PM
Where Votto could really help is stengthing bench with Hatt.
Bringing Hatt off late in game is a plus.
Dunn, agree with assessment.

Votto should be starting at first base, not on the bench.I might have Hatteberg tutoring Cantu and Votto. The 4 seem to be players who will start contributing very soon to the future success of the Reds, but nothing is certain. I think McBeth and Salmon will very soon join Burton and Bray in the bullpen. and help as much as Burton and Bray. I have a great deal of hope in the future.

Muggerd
08-23-2007, 02:22 PM
Votto should be starting at first base, not on the bench.I might have Hatteberg tutoring Cantu and Votto.

He didnt say he should be on the bench

AmarilloRed
08-23-2007, 02:35 PM
He said he should strengthen the bench with Hatteberg.

jmac
08-23-2007, 03:43 PM
He said he should strengthen the bench with Hatteberg.

Votto should be starting but that would mean having a guy like hatteberg on the bench which would be plus.
"That" is what I was saying.

Ludwig Reds Fan
08-23-2007, 07:13 PM
http://texasholdemblogger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/charlie_brown_lucy_football.jpg

GoReds33
08-23-2007, 07:28 PM
I think the Reds owe it to Hatteberg for it to be his decision on weather he comes back next year. I think he should go somewhere where he can start most every day.

AccordinglyReds
08-23-2007, 08:29 PM
I think the Reds owe it to Hatteberg for it to be his decision on weather he comes back next year. I think he should go somewhere where he can start most every day.

I share the same sentiment.

Hatteberg has done a great job when he has played. He seems to always have a positive attitude and is willing to do whatever to help the team. If they are going to bring Votto up for next year and keep platooning with Cantu, then as I would still like Hatteberg on the bench, I think they owe it to him to make his own decisions and keep blunt with him about their plans. Hatte is still quite a serviceable player, albeit he's getting older. I like him on the Reds, but also think he should try to maximize his playing time.

fadetoblack2880
08-24-2007, 12:27 PM
Votto should be starting at first base, not on the bench.I might have Hatteberg tutoring Cantu and Votto. The 4 seem to be players who will start contributing very soon to the future success of the Reds, but nothing is certain. I think McBeth and Salmon will very soon join Burton and Bray in the bullpen. and help as much as Burton and Bray. I have a great deal of hope in the future.

I agree. There would be no point in bringing up Votto to sit on the bench. He'd be better off playing at AAA. McBeth could contribute now, Salmon needs to learn the zone a little better and he'd be a very good reliever. This team has a bright future now. Brighter than it has been for quite awhile.

muethibp
08-24-2007, 01:58 PM
I think the Reds owe it to Hatteberg for it to be his decision on weather he comes back next year. I think he should go somewhere where he can start most every day.

I think by agreeing to a team option Hatteberg freely bargained away the right for it to be his decision whether he comes back next year (in exchange for $150,000 of free money should the team not want him for 08). Reasonable people can differ on whether the team is better off short term and long term with Hatteberg starting against RHP in 08 on one hand or Hatteberg sitting on the bench and Votto starting against RHP in 08. But it seems undeniable to me that Hatteberg belongs on this team next year at $1.7MM (his contract is $1.85MM but we have to pay him $150,000 one way or another so it's only $1.7MM in additional money to retain him for next year) in one capacity or another. Maybe he could play a bigger role for another team but I don't feel the least bit bad for him.

texasdave
08-24-2007, 03:15 PM
I think by agreeing to a team option Hatteberg freely bargained away the right for it to be his decision whether he comes back next year (in exchange for $150,000 of free money should the team not want him for 08). Reasonable people can differ on whether the team is better off short term and long term with Hatteberg starting against RHP in 08 on one hand or Hatteberg sitting on the bench and Votto starting against RHP in 08. But it seems undeniable to me that Hatteberg belongs on this team next year at $1.7MM (his contract is $1.85MM but we have to pay him $150,000 one way or another so it's only $1.7MM in additional money to retain him for next year) in one capacity or another. Maybe he could play a bigger role for another team but I don't feel the least bit bad for him.

Exactly. Hatteberg made his decision as to the 2008 season. He decided to leave that up to the Reds. He probably got a little money to help him make that decision.