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RFS62
08-24-2007, 04:37 PM
I know this is a new topic, never before discussed here.

With a poll, you get a vote, not a soapbox.

So, Rate the Big Donkey's defense.

nate
08-24-2007, 04:40 PM
Who is Alan Dun?

Never heard a guy with a name like that talked about around here. ;)

Need a "Poorverage" category.

SunDeck
08-24-2007, 04:49 PM
You forgot a category- "worse than Wily Mo".

Red in Chicago
08-24-2007, 04:54 PM
Seriously, is "good" really an option here:eek:

I voted "average", but I think he's really somewhere between that and poor. I'm with Nate.

KronoRed
08-24-2007, 05:19 PM
Average

osuceltic
08-24-2007, 05:20 PM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

Ltlabner
08-24-2007, 05:20 PM
Who is the Adam Dunn person?

Never heard of him...I hear he mails it in in August and September anyway.

RedLegSuperStar
08-24-2007, 05:24 PM
Poor.. would of been average had I not caught last nights game when he fumbled the ball as he was trying to pick it up.. and for a former quarterback.. I would think he would have a better arm then the Johnny Damon cannon that he has..

CTA513
08-24-2007, 05:30 PM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

:cry:

nate
08-24-2007, 05:37 PM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

Makes it easier to see through the dark clouds.

RedsBaron
08-24-2007, 05:43 PM
Poor. Dunn has strengths as a player-defense ain't one of 'em.

camisadelgolf
08-24-2007, 05:48 PM
I think his arm is underrated, but other than that, I think he's below average in pretty much everything else. It seems like he bobbles every ball in the corner, and obviously, his range isn't very good. The thing that gets me the most is his lack of effort. I'm not saying he's lazy, but I think, whether he realizes it or not, he could put a lot more energy into his defense.

wheels
08-24-2007, 05:57 PM
Who is the Adam Dunn person?

Never heard of him...I hear he mails it in in August and September anyway.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Patrick Bateman
08-24-2007, 05:59 PM
Poor.. would of been average had I not caught last nights game when he fumbled the ball as he was trying to pick it up.. and for a former quarterback.. I would think he would have a better arm then the Johnny Damon cannon that he has..

Basing any opinion on one single play is generally a really awful way of articulating a stance

Matt700wlw
08-24-2007, 06:00 PM
Average...on a good day.

So, since I'm having a good day, I voted "average" :)

MississippiRed
08-24-2007, 06:05 PM
I voted average. He does let some balls get by him that I don't think should. He makes lazy throws sometimes. But, he made an excellent deke followed by an excellent catch against the wall night before last, and I was impressed with the ball he got to that was between him, Hamilton and Keppinger last night. Of those three, Dunn was the one least likely to get to it, I thought, but he did.

The real reason I voted him average, though, was in thinking of the other LFs in the league.

TOBTTReds
08-24-2007, 06:18 PM
I think he is terrible. In my book, there are three worse OF'ers that I can think of. Carlos Less, Chris Duncan, and Wily Mo. Dunn usually catches balls that he gets to. I have complete confidence when a ball is hit towards him. With those other three, I don't.

I gave him the worst grade, but if there were 5 choices, I would have gone with 2nd worst.

camisadelgolf
08-24-2007, 06:38 PM
I think he is terrible. In my book, there are three worse OF'ers that I can think of. Carlos Less, Chris Duncan, and Wily Mo. Dunn usually catches balls that he gets to. I have complete confidence when a ball is hit towards him. With those other three, I don't.

I gave him the worst grade, but if there were 5 choices, I would have gone with 2nd worst.

My thoughts exactly.

AtomicDumpling
08-25-2007, 01:19 AM
I think he is an average left fielder. Most left fielders are poor fielders -- that is why they play left field instead of a more difficult position. Compared to the rest of the league's left fielders he is average.

Here are Adam Dunn's current 2007 ranks among the National League's 16 starting left fielders:

Zone Rating of .831 ranks 7th.
Range Factor of 1.85 ranks 7th.
Fielding % of .981 ranks 8th.

Eric Byrnes and Alfonso Soriano are the 1st and 2nd best left fielders in the NL. Most LFs are big, slow, sluggers like Dunn -- Carlos Lee, Barry Bonds, Pat Burrell, Jason Bay, Matt Holliday, Geoff Jenkins, Chris Duncan, etc.

When you are 6'6" and 275 lbs you are always going to appear slow and lazy, even if you aren't. Maybe he should flail his arms and take short, choppy steps when running like Ryan Freel just to give the illusion of speed.

Highlifeman21
08-25-2007, 01:26 AM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

Adam Dunn really is middle of the road when it comes to LF. He will never win a Gold Glove, and will never be at the top of any leaderboard concerning positive defensive metrics, however that being said there are actually worse LF playing everyday.

Defensively, Adam Dunn doesn't help us immensely, but certainly doesn't hurt us either. Seriously, there are far worse candidates we could man LF with from either the AL or the NL.

AtomicDumpling
08-25-2007, 01:52 AM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

I think it is the other way around really. It is the people that only watch the Reds that think he is below average. If you watched the other all-bat, no-glove left fielders in the league you would realize that Dunn is better than half of them.

The small ball days of huge outfields covered with rock-hard Astroturf are over. Back then you had to have speedy fielders to cover all that ground and chase down the screaming bouncers before they hit the wall. Nowadays, the good teams have learned it is much more effective to have guys that can hit the ball hard.

NDRed
08-25-2007, 03:01 AM
No way is Adam Dunn average. Well I agree that the position is not typically manned bythe defensive elite I can't think of 5, let alone 15, regular left fielders worse than Dunn.

That's what I don't get. As much as grief Adam recieves I would think he would be excited to play 1st base. Not much booing for a 1st baseball.

Ravenlord
08-25-2007, 03:07 AM
...I can't think of 5, let alone 15, regular left fielders worse than Dunn.

Carlos Lee
Chris Duncan
Jason Bay
Pat Burrell
Barry Bonds
Raul Ibanez
Manny Ramirez
Jay Payton

GAC
08-25-2007, 05:38 AM
When is the poll rating his base running skills? http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sport018.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I want to know if you compare Dunn's runs allowed with his runs scored, what the differential is?

RedsBaron
08-25-2007, 07:09 AM
When is the poll rating his base running skills? http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sport018.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I want to know if you compare Dunn's runs allowed with his runs scored, what the differential is?

Hey, Dunn has an 80% success rate as a basestealer this season (8 for 10), which is much better than Freel's 65% success rate (15 for 23). ;)

GAC
08-25-2007, 07:39 AM
Hey, Dunn has an 80% success rate as a basestealer this season (8 for 10), which is much better than Freel's 65% success rate (15 for 23). ;)

You're comparing the slow-witted with the dumb-witted. :p:

The guy is like a deer in the headlights when it comes to judging balls hit into the OF and advancing on the bases. Alot of indecision in that area.

Did you happen to catch the one game over this past weekend vs the Brewers (I think it was Sunday's game) where he was on 1B and I think it was Conine who hit the rocket into the gap and Dunn lags into 2B while Berry is over there waving his arms for him to come to 3B? http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/gen151.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I guess Adam can't do two things at the same time (watch the ball and the base coach signals). Berry was walking around in disgust after that. He should have easily been at 3B.

But then, on the very next batter (I think EE), he hesitates again in the base paths between 2nd and 3rd, on a clean hit, and barely gets to 3B. He really acted lost. Berry then came up to talk to him, and I think he said.... "OK Adam, there is one out. Anything hit to the OF tag up and then head in that direction, toward the guy with the mask and dressed up like a turtle."

I was simply laughing.

RANDY IN INDY
08-25-2007, 08:22 AM
Poor. Surprised at the number of average votes. I think a lot of people must be voting on "the curve.";)

RedsBaron
08-25-2007, 08:51 AM
You're comparing the slow-witted with the dumb-witted. :p:

The guy is like a deer in the headlights when it comes to judging balls hit into the OF and advancing on the bases. Alot of indecision in that area.

Did you happen to catch the one game over this past weekend vs the Brewers (I think it was Sunday's game) where he was on 1B and I think it was Conine who hit the rocket into the gap and Dunn lags into 2B while Berry is over there waving his arms for him to come to 3B? http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/gen151.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I guess Adam can't do two things at the same time (watch the ball and the base coach signals). Berry was walking around in disgust after that. He should have easily been at 3B.

But then, on the very next batter (I think EE), he hesitates again in the base paths between 2nd and 3rd, on a clean hit, and barely gets to 3B. He really acted lost. Berry then came up to talk to him, and I think he said.... "OK Adam, there is one out. Anything hit to the OF tag up and then head in that direction, toward the guy with the mask and dressed up like a turtle."

I was simply laughing.

I happened to see that. Dunn really isn't a very good baserunner or fielder, but, in his defense, at least he was on base in that game and did finally score. For all his misadventures on the basepaths, Dunn, with a high OBP, will score more runs than the swifest and smartest of runners who can't get on base.

Raisor
08-25-2007, 09:13 AM
I want to know if you compare Dunn's runs allowed with his runs scored, what the differential is?



His run differential would show you that it doesn't really matter how good or bad of a LFer he is.

Chip R
08-25-2007, 09:39 AM
Poor. Surprised at the number of average votes. I think a lot of people must be voting on "the curve.";)


His defense gets better as his hitting does. If he were hitting .230, you'd see a lot of "Dr. Strangegloves".

Always Red
08-25-2007, 09:42 AM
His defense gets better as his hitting does. If he were hitting .230, you'd see a lot of "Dr. Strangegloves".

Truer words have never been typed!

That's how Gold Gloves are won, too, IIRC? ;)

RFS62
08-25-2007, 09:46 AM
His defense gets better as his hitting does. If he were hitting .230, you'dsee a lot if "Dr. Strangegloves".



I think you're right.

For the record, I voted "poor".

When he first came up, I had high hopes for his defense, especially his throwing game.

His throwing fundamentals are especially poor, IMO. I can't remember the last time I saw him setting up behind a fly ball to get his momentum moving towards the base he's throwing to or taking a crow hop. He throws on the run like a quarterback rolling out all too often with no weight transfer.

It bothers me that he hasn't refined the basic fundamentals of playing the outfield as long as he's been here. Say what you want about his work ethic, I'm not there so I don't know. I do know his fundamentals are poor, below average.

I don't see a guy who looks like he takes pride in his defense.

RedsBaron
08-25-2007, 09:54 AM
I hope that the Reds are able to sign Dunn to another three years or so contract after his current deal expires after the 2008 season, but that is also probably about as far as I would go with Dunn. Dunn will be 28 years old next season. I expect him to continue for a while to be around a 40 HR/100 RBI/100 runs scored/100 walks per season hitter, and that kind of production has value, no matter how many times Dunn strikes out or how much Marty gets his panties in a wad.
However, I also expect Dunn to decline rapidly once he gets into his early thirties. At around age 32 or so, I have concerns that Dunn, already 6'6" and 275, will begin to lose some durability and some bat speed and will become even more immobile. He's already a firstbaseman playing leftfield. I'd like to keep Dunn around a few more years, but just a few.

oneupper
08-25-2007, 10:42 AM
I thought about this, and well we all have a concept of how a LF SHOULD play, but it would probably be better to compare Dunn to people actually PLAYING the position.


Here's who played LF in the NL last night.

San Diego: M. Bradley
Phillies: Pat Burrell
Marlins: Willingham
Pirates: J. Bay
Astros: C. Lee
Dodgers: A. Ethier
Mets: M. Alou
Braves: W. Harris
Cards: C. Duncan
Nats: Wily Mo
Colorado: Matt Holliday
Cubs: Cliff Floyd
Arizona: Eric Byrnes
Milwaukee: Kevin Mench
Giants: Barry Bonds


Now, of that list...how many is Dunn BETTER than? I don't know these guys too well, but I'd say Lee is a hack out there, Bonds ain't what he used to be...but he was a gold glover. Willingham used to be a catcher, etc. The few times I've seen Duncan he hasn't looked good.

So maybe...two or three? four?

Then, how many are definitely better than Dunn. Bradley, Byrnes sure..., Bay, Harris, Halliday?, Alou at 41?, WMP? (the question mark is I'm not sure).Burrell?

My guesstimate puts Dunn in the lower third of these players in terms of defensive ability. So he'd be below average...

But there seems to be a gap between what the perception of what an "average" LF fields like and what actually is being put out there.

Sea Ray
08-25-2007, 10:56 AM
Wow. I can't believe he's getting so many "average" votes. There are some serious red-colored glasses out there.

I agree. I don't know what it is about Adam Dunn that causes so many folks here at RZ to lose rationality. As Krivsky found out at the trade deadline the rest of baseball does not feel likewise about this guy.

Sea Ray
08-25-2007, 10:59 AM
I thought about this, and well we all have a concept of how a LF SHOULD play, but it would probably be better to compare Dunn to people actually PLAYING the position.



If your point is that LF is where most teams try to hide their "hack" then you did it well. I think most of us knew that already. The Reds aren't the only team with an offensively gifted player who they're trying to hide in the field.

Yachtzee
08-25-2007, 11:28 AM
If your point is that LF is where most teams try to hide their "hack" then you did it well. I think most of us knew that already. The Reds aren't the only team with an offensively gifted player who they're trying to hide in the field.

And that is why I said "average." LF is populated by defensive liabilities. I think Dunn is probably about average for the field, but like his strikeouts, everyone here is much more familiar with his miscues, so they're much harder on him for it. Seriously, I watched Manny Ramirez out there for the Indians for a number of years and he makes Dunn look like a gold glover. I don't even think the guy pays attention to the game out there. Other poor LFers have been listed here as well. In fact, I would argue that winning a gold glove in LF is like being the king of the fumblebums.

So if you're asking me whether Dunn is a good OFer, I say he is poor. But limit it to LF and he's probably about league average, with the average being quite low.

Always Red
08-25-2007, 11:34 AM
I agree. I don't know what it is about Adam Dunn that causes so many folks here at RZ to lose rationality. As Krivsky found out at the trade deadline the rest of baseball does not feel likewise about this guy.

Dunn is certainly very polarizing- many either love him or hate him.

You and I have no idea what Wayne was asking for Dunn. He might have been trying to trade him for a bonafide #1, and hoping someone would cave in and bite and the Reds could steal a player, or two.

Just because he wasn't traded doesn't mean his worth is low. I think it was smart of Kriv not to trade him for more recycled crap. He may have been asking for the moon, and there might have been GM's out there thinking about doing it, and then deciding at the last minute not to pull the trigger.

Sea Ray
08-25-2007, 11:36 AM
So if you're asking me whether Dunn is a good OFer, I say he is poor. But limit it to LF and he's probably about league average, with the average being quite low.


I'd agree with that :)

RedsBaron
08-25-2007, 11:51 AM
And that is why I said "average." LF is populated by defensive liabilities. I think Dunn is probably about average for the field, but like his strikeouts, everyone here is much more familiar with his miscues, so they're much harder on him for it. Seriously, I watched Manny Ramirez out there for the Indians for a number of years and he makes Dunn look like a gold glover. I don't even think the guy pays attention to the game out there. Other poor LFers have been listed here as well. In fact, I would argue that winning a gold glove in LF is like being the king of the fumblebums.

So if you're asking me whether Dunn is a good OFer, I say he is poor. But limit it to LF and he's probably about league average, with the average being quite low.

Good points. As Atomic Dumpling pointed out earlier, MLB isn't the same as it was in the 1970s, when in an era of huge outfields and rock hard artificial turf, speedy outfielders with a good glove were more common, even in left. I can remember Greg Luzinski being an absolute butcher as a leftfielder. He would fit in well with today's leftfielders.

Falls City Beer
08-25-2007, 12:30 PM
I think it is the other way around really. It is the people that only watch the Reds that think he is below average. If you watched the other all-bat, no-glove left fielders in the league you would realize that Dunn is better than half of them.

The small ball days of huge outfields covered with rock-hard Astroturf are over. Back then you had to have speedy fielders to cover all that ground and chase down the screaming bouncers before they hit the wall. Nowadays, the good teams have learned it is much more effective to have guys that can hit the ball hard.

Posts like this raise the bar in the ORG; welcome aboard. Good to have a sharp mind with a contextual sensibility in the fold.

The game changes. Adam Dunn's defense fits the order of the day when measured against his offense.

Falls City Beer
08-25-2007, 12:32 PM
I think a lot of people must be voting on "the curve.";)

Really, though, that's the ONLY way to vote. You're not voting against some Platonic ideal--you're voting on where he stands among his peers.

Sea Ray
08-25-2007, 02:06 PM
Dunn is certainly very polarizing- many either love him or hate him.

You and I have no idea what Wayne was asking for Dunn. He might have been trying to trade him for a bonafide #1, and hoping someone would cave in and bite and the Reds could steal a player, or two.

Just because he wasn't traded doesn't mean his worth is low. I think it was smart of Kriv not to trade him for more recycled crap. He may have been asking for the moon, and there might have been GM's out there thinking about doing it, and then deciding at the last minute not to pull the trigger.

My point is that if other GMs thought Dunn was as great as some do on this forum then WK could have gotten a great return on him.

nate
08-25-2007, 02:55 PM
My point is that if other GMs thought Dunn was as great as some do on this forum then WK could have gotten a great return on him.

"If other GMs thought NoHo was as great as Marty thinks he is..."

;)

BoydsOfSummer
08-25-2007, 03:16 PM
I vote for "fair".

RFS62
08-25-2007, 03:46 PM
Posts like this raise the bar in the ORG; welcome aboard. Good to have a sharp mind with a contextual sensibility in the fold.

The game changes. Adam Dunn's defense fits the order of the day when measured against his offense.


Really, though, that's the ONLY way to vote. You're not voting against some Platonic ideal--you're voting on where he stands among his peers.



I too am happy to see Atomic Dumpling posting here. That was a very well reasoned post.

However, the question posed in the poll wasn't "How does Adam Dunn's defense compare to other left fielders of today?"

It was pretty straightforward and simple to understand, especially for a master of language such as you, FCB.

I would reply that just because the average left fielder playing today isn't as good a defender as they were in the past, it doesn't mean that any of these lesser modern day left fielders are good, or even average.

You can either play the position or you can't. You either have holes in your game and fundamentals or you don't.

Saying he's good by todays standards is kind of like saying he's the smartest Hilton sister.

Patrick Bateman
08-25-2007, 04:15 PM
I have to agree with FCB here. We need to jusge by today's standards. I completely understand what you are saying RFS, but to gauge Dunn's ability to field, it really doesn't matter what kind of standards there were in the past.

In modern baseball, LF is obviously the place to hide your unathletic slugger. As of today, Dunn is somewhere between average and poor compared to the rest of left fielders. That's the way I see it. Those are just the new standards. The standards from years past really should not be a determining factor to whether Dunn's fielding ability is acceptable today.

jojo
08-25-2007, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately, even by today's standards Dunn has consistently graded out as one of the worst left fielders in the game-evaluation of his defense represents the perfect storm in skill evaluation where there is perfect harmony between the eyes and the best empirical data available.

Yachtzee
08-26-2007, 01:27 AM
I too am happy to see Atomic Dumpling posting here. That was a very well reasoned post.

However, the question posed in the poll wasn't "How does Adam Dunn's defense compare to other left fielders of today?"

It was pretty straightforward and simple to understand, especially for a master of language such as you, FCB.

I would reply that just because the average left fielder playing today isn't as good a defender as they were in the past, it doesn't mean that any of these lesser modern day left fielders are good, or even average.

You can either play the position or you can't. You either have holes in your game and fundamentals or you don't.

Saying he's good by todays standards is kind of like saying he's the smartest Hilton sister.

So does that mean you compare Davey Concepcion's hitting stats to those of today and keep him out of the HOF because his bat doesn't quite live up to the standards of today's power-driven shortstops? I'm not saying that Dunn is HOF material on the hitting side, but I would say that to compare one part of a player's game to players from other generations is folly. Different baseball eras place different values on the aspects of a position player's game. This era sacrifices defense in LF in favor of power, whereas other generations, where there were more pitchers' parks and outfielders needed to cover more ground, maybe teams were willing to sacrifice power for defense in the outfield and stash all their power hitting defensive liabilities at 1B. Maybe Dunn doesn't stack up well against LFers of the past. But then maybe some of those defensive wizards in LF, if they played in this era, would be moved to CF or would be a late inning defensive replacement, or even shuttling between the majors and AAA.

AtomicDumpling
08-26-2007, 03:08 AM
So does that mean you compare Davey Concepcion's hitting stats to those of today and keep him out of the HOF because his bat doesn't quite live up to the standards of today's power-driven shortstops? I'm not saying that Dunn is HOF material on the hitting side, but I would say that to compare one part of a player's game to players from other generations is folly. Different baseball eras place different values on the aspects of a position player's game. This era sacrifices defense in LF in favor of power, whereas other generations, where there were more pitchers' parks and outfielders needed to cover more ground, maybe teams were willing to sacrifice power for defense in the outfield and stash all their power hitting defensive liabilities at 1B. Maybe Dunn doesn't stack up well against LFers of the past. But then maybe some of those defensive wizards in LF, if they played in this era, would be moved to CF or would be a late inning defensive replacement, or even shuttling between the majors and AAA.

I think what he meant was we should compare today's players to today's players and then compare 1970's players only to other 1970's players. I agree with your statement that it is folly to compare players from different eras -- but that is a large part of the fun of arguing about baseball!

The demise of the slick-fielding glove man in the corner outfield positions is due primarily to size. The size of the ballpark, the size of the strike zone, and the size of today's players.

We are all familiar with the gradual growth of the American populace. We can easily see that every generation for the past 100+ years has been bigger and taller than their parent's generation. Back in the day of Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams and the other greats a player was considered big if he was six feet tall or 200 pounds. Nowadays the average player is over six feet tall and 200 pounds. Babe Ruth was considered a giant at 6'2" and 215 pounds. He would be dwarfed by the likes of Adam Dunn (6'6", 275) and Aaron Harang (6'7", 275).

If you combine bigger players with smaller ballfields and a smaller strikezone (and a lower pitcher's mound too) you are going to end up with a drastically changed sport. Power is the key to success in today's game of baseball.

If the player pool consists only of 6' tall 180lb contact hitters then it makes sense to choose the one that defends the best -- especially in an era of mammoth astroturf outfields with distant fences. Players that could hit the home run with any regularity were extremely rare superstars, so if you couldn't find a slugger (and most teams couldn't) you went with a great fielder instead.

Nowadays almost everyone can hit home runs in bunches. Homers put runs on the scoreboard faster than any great fielder can prevent runs from scoring. So if you have a slick fielding weakling manning left field you are at a severe disadvantage to the rest of the league.

The most frequently used skill of left fielders now is craning their neck to watch the ball soar into the bleachers. Even Adam Dunn and Manny Ramirez can do that.

MartyFan
08-26-2007, 04:27 AM
I voted avg. but just barely.

RFS62
08-26-2007, 08:28 AM
Atomic Dumpling and Yachtzee, I'm not arguing that the expectations of the position haven't evolved. I'm not asking a single thing about his offense.

I'm talking about one thing. Fielding. His defense.

I guess I should have made that more clear, as a few are looking at "rating him as a left fielder" as more than his defense.

Without question, his offense makes his glove more acceptable in the big picture. What I'm asking is how you rate him on his defense.

RFS62
08-26-2007, 08:30 AM
So does that mean you compare Davey Concepcion's hitting stats to those of today and keep him out of the HOF because his bat doesn't quite live up to the standards of today's power-driven shortstops?



Nope. But if I were asked a question such as the one in this poll, to "rate his defense", I'd rate his defense. Or, I'd rate his offense, if that was the poll question.

Your answer expands the question.

RANDY IN INDY
08-26-2007, 09:18 AM
Any way you cut it, he is a poor defensive leftfielder that hasn't gotten much better at playing in the outfield since he came to the big leagues. Fundamentally, he is not good.

AtomicDumpling
08-27-2007, 01:37 AM
Atomic Dumpling and Yachtzee, I'm not arguing that the expectations of the position haven't evolved. I'm not asking a single thing about his offense.

I'm talking about one thing. Fielding. His defense.

I guess I should have made that more clear, as a few are looking at "rating him as a left fielder" as more than his defense.

Without question, his offense makes his glove more acceptable in the big picture. What I'm asking is how you rate him on his defense.

I was rating him on his defense only.

Since he ranks in the top half of all three major defensive metrics he is clearly at least "average" among all National League left fielders. Pretty hard to argue otherwise.

fearofpopvol1
08-30-2007, 08:18 PM
1st inning of the game tonight says a lot about his defense IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
08-30-2007, 08:20 PM
Yep

pedro
08-30-2007, 08:23 PM
I've seen a few balls roll right through Juniors legs this year and he's 10 gold gloves.

RFS62
08-30-2007, 08:24 PM
I've seen a few balls roll right through Juniors legs this year and he's 10 gold gloves.



Think he'll get one this year?

Did he play centerfield the years he won the gold gloves the way he's played rightfield this year?

pedro
08-30-2007, 08:25 PM
Think he'll get one this year?

Did he play centerfield the years he won the gold gloves the way he's played rightfield this year?

Nope and nope. I'm certainly not trying to say that Dunn's a good fielder. It's obvious he's not. I'm just saying that everyone makes errors from time to time.

RFS62
08-30-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm just saying that everyone makes errors from time to time.


That I agree with.

37red
08-30-2007, 08:30 PM
Man, Dunn is average for little league. He's no where in the big leagues. I could play left field as well as Dunn, and that's not saying much.

fearofpopvol1
08-30-2007, 08:33 PM
My problem with Dunn is his decision making. He's obviously a bigger guy and isn't going to run down balls the way that other fielders will. However, you've gotta block balls. You can't let them get by you like that, especially the way the 2nd one in the 1st inning did.

pedro
08-30-2007, 08:36 PM
Man, Dunn is average for little league. He's no where in the big leagues. I could play left field as well as Dunn, and that's not saying much.

That's pretty funny. He isn't good but anyone who knows anything knows enough to give anyone in the majors a little credit for even hacking it all out there. Those guys hit the ball hard and they hit the ball far. The amount of ground that any major league player has to cover in the OF is a lot more than most people probably imagine as the fields are larger than anything that most of us have ever played on.

37red
08-30-2007, 08:38 PM
Fear, making judgments and getting in front of the ball IS the measure of a fielder. Dunn is not a good fielder. Again, I'm only rating Dunn's fielding too, not his over all playing performance, he doesn't get in front of the ball and block it. He also can't judge a fly ball.

37red
08-30-2007, 08:44 PM
Pedro, OK, you're right, he deserves credit to make it to the big leagues, but not for his fielding. Dunn barely qualifies as a good college kid in the outfield. Would you agree with that, or do you think he's better than a good (above average) college left fielder?

pedro
08-30-2007, 08:48 PM
Pedro, OK, you're right, he deserves credit to make it to the big leagues, but not for his fielding. Dunn barely qualifies as a good college kid in the outfield. Would you agree with that, or do you think he's better than a good (above average) college left fielder?

no I don't. but then again, i doubt many folks could play at that level either.

37red
08-30-2007, 08:50 PM
OK

pedro
08-30-2007, 08:50 PM
Fear, making judgments and getting in front of the ball IS the measure of a fielder. Dunn is not a good fielder. Again, I'm only rating Dunn's fielding too, not his over all playing performance, he doesn't get in front of the ball and block it. He also can't judge a fly ball.

I think he does about as well as any 270 lb man is going to.

OTOH, do I think he has a long term future in LF?

NO

westofyou
08-30-2007, 10:06 PM
One of the biggest men in the history of the game to play the OF, its no surprise he looks bad out there, its' also no surprise that the only two men to top 6'6"/240 also were top flight college athletes in another sport (well Dunn could have been .. probably Tight End though)


CAREER
OF
HEIGHT >= 78

WEIGHT >= 240

GAMES G HT WT
1 Frank Howard 1435 6'7" 255
2 Adam Dunn 729 6'6" 240
3 Ryan Minor 2 6'7" 245
T4 Tony Clark 1 6'7" 240
T4 Joel Guzman 1 6'6" 250
T4 Scott Elarton 1 6'7" 240

RANDY IN INDY
08-30-2007, 10:36 PM
That's pretty funny. He isn't good but anyone who knows anything knows enough to give anyone in the majors a little credit for even hacking it all out there. Those guys hit the ball hard and they hit the ball far. The amount of ground that any major league player has to cover in the OF is a lot more than most people probably imagine as the fields are larger than anything that most of us have ever played on.

That's why they are major leaguers. There is an expectation.