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View Full Version : Fay - It's Mackanin's job IF....



Matt700wlw
08-26-2007, 04:14 PM
and other notes....

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070826/SPT04/708260382/1071/SPT

toledodan
08-26-2007, 04:30 PM
good piece. the reds do have a few chips to trade for some starting pitching. it will be interesting to see if they pick up dunn's option. i'm one of the ones who wanted him traded but now i'm not sure. for someone who's not cluch he's either #3 or #4 in the league in 2 out rbis. that is pretty clutch to me!

TOBTTReds
08-26-2007, 05:39 PM
But the emergence of Jeff Keppinger and Norris Hopper has given the Reds more chips to with which to trade.

Parting with Edwin Encarnacion or Alex Gonzalez to open a spot for Keppinger is a possible.

Hopper looks like he could fill the role fourth outfielder role, which makes Ryan Freel tradeable.



Keppinger, Hopper, Freel packaged together wouldn't yield a #4 starter. Hopper and Freel are replacement players, and no GM is dumb enough to trade anything with talent for a hot hitting career minor leaguer.

I'm glad Marty got shown up that the Reds would keep Dunn. Marty has no sense in what is valuable to a team...like scoring runs.

StillFunkyB
08-26-2007, 05:48 PM
Honestly, I am fine with keeping Mack.

The failure of Narron, and Miley doesn't really bother me. A one year contract would be fine. If he fails you just do this over again next season.

That, and I really dislike Tony LaRussa.

fearofpopvol1
08-26-2007, 06:02 PM
Anyone else have the feeling that Votto may be moved over the offseason?

Unassisted
08-26-2007, 06:05 PM
If the only choices are LaRussa, Mackanin and Bob Brenly (the only person besides Mackanin who has publicly expressed interest in the permanent gig), I'd stick with the guy who has shown over the last 2 months that he can win with this Reds team.

I'm hoping that there are even better choices than those 3, though.

SunDeck
08-26-2007, 08:14 PM
OPTION PLAY: Marty Brennaman took a survey of the three beat writers on the subject of Adam Dunn's $13 million option.

The vote was 3-0 that the club picks it up.

That must have broken Marty's heart.

Highlifeman21
08-26-2007, 08:30 PM
Anyone else have the feeling that Votto may be moved over the offseason?

I share that feeling.

I've never been big on Votto, but the kid is raking in AAA and should be given a shot on the big club no later than September 2nd. Hopefully this regime gives him a chance to either play his way on, or play his way off the big club, unlike how they handled Chris Denorfia.

jojo
08-26-2007, 08:37 PM
The beauty of hiring MacKanin is that he'd be cheap (probably even cheaper than Narron).

EE doesn't net a starter IMHO, at least not a starter as defined as what the majority of the fan base would consider quality.

smith288
08-26-2007, 08:41 PM
I share that feeling.

I've never been big on Votto, but the kid is raking in AAA and should be given a shot on the big club no later than September 2nd. Hopefully this regime gives him a chance to either play his way on, or play his way off the big club, unlike how they handled Chris Denorfia.
Maybe because Denorfia IS a AAAA guy?

BoydsOfSummer
08-26-2007, 09:01 PM
Is it okay to be indifferent?

Chip R
08-26-2007, 09:31 PM
That must have broken Marty's heart.

Of course the question was if they thought the Reds would pick up the option not if they thought the Reds should pick up the option. Marty himself may think the Reds will pick up the option but you can bet your bottom dollar he doesn't think they should pick it up.

I think Mackanin has done well so far. But I've seen this act before and it always ends up in the interim manager getting a new deal for a year or so and then getting an extention when the team plays well and eventually getting fired when the team stops playing for him. I know a lot of people don't like LaRussa and I know he has his faults. But you can't argue with results and he's got them everywhere he's went.

Sea Ray
08-26-2007, 11:18 PM
I'm OK with keeping Mackanin if he only gets a one yr deal. Ditto for next year.

KronoRed
08-27-2007, 02:00 AM
Maybe because Denorfia IS a AAAA guy?

I'll take an OPS of .740 and good defense in the OF.

Now Brandon Larson, there is a REAL AAAA player.

Topcat
08-27-2007, 02:21 AM
Carlos Silva is a guy they should look at , also depends on what he is looking for salary wise. 3 Years 18 mill is doable but higher than that I would start chating up the Angels on some of there pitching excess.

RedsBaron
08-27-2007, 06:33 AM
I'm glad Marty got shown up that the Reds would keep Dunn. Marty has no sense in what is valuable to a team...like scoring runs.

Marty believes that what is most valuable to a team is a HOF radio announcer. ;)

Highlifeman21
08-27-2007, 10:41 AM
Maybe because Denorfia IS a AAAA guy?

Denorfia was never given a chance at the MLB level, by this organization.

161 PAs or 144 ABs. Huge sample size. 67 total games. We really can say without a shadow of a doubt that Chris Denorfia is a AAAA player, can't we?

Joey Votto has no official PA or AB that I can find at the MLB level. We don't know what he can or will do at the MLB level, but we should at least give him 600 PA to find out.

RFS62
08-27-2007, 10:42 AM
If the season ended today, he's earned a one year deal.

Highlifeman21
08-27-2007, 10:42 AM
Carlos Silva is a guy they should look at , also depends on what he is looking for salary wise. 3 Years 18 mill is doable but higher than that I would start chating up the Angels on some of there pitching excess.

The same Carlos Silva that would have resulted in Adam Dunn spending significant time in jail had Mike Lieberthal not tackled Dunn on Dunn's way to charging the mound?

I'm sure they'd get along just fine as teammates.

Chip R
08-27-2007, 10:52 AM
The same Carlos Silva that would have resulted in Adam Dunn spending significant time in jail had Mike Lieberthal not tackled Dunn on Dunn's way to charging the mound?

I'm sure they'd get along just fine as teammates.


Why wouldn't they? That happened 3-4 years ago and they don't have to be best friends to be on the same team.

Ltlabner
08-27-2007, 10:55 AM
So has Pete made any decisions/moves (including those of omission) that would cause people to not want him hired?

Or is the concern basically that he's another intreim?

I'm not campaiging for him to be hired, just currious. While I don't think he should just be given the job without a serrious managerial search, he hasn't done anything in particular that made me say, 'no way in heck!'.

westofyou
08-27-2007, 10:59 AM
Why wouldn't they? That happened 3-4 years ago and they don't have to be best friends to be on the same team.

Sully and the little Brian Hunter survived their match up as teammates.

Totally off topic but isn't Jason Ellison a lot like Hunter? And wasn't his appearance as a Reds similar in reaction? Hopefully his tenure should match.

Sea Ray
08-27-2007, 10:59 AM
So has Pete made any decisions/moves (including those of omission) that would cause people to not want him hired?

Or is the concern basically that he's another intreim?

I'm not campaiging for him to be hired, just currious. While I don't think he should just be given the job without a serrious managerial search, he hasn't done anything in particular that made me say, 'no way in heck!'.

His moves have been OK but he doesn't seem to be a dynamic leader or a wonderful motivator to say the least. His comments are kind of robotic. How many of you heard Sparky's comments in the booth during Saturday's game? ...Pete Mackanin is no Sparky...

Chip R
08-27-2007, 11:00 AM
So has Pete made any decisions/moves (including those of omission) that would cause people to not want him hired?

Or is the concern basically that he's another intreim?



That's it for me right there.

Always Red
08-27-2007, 11:03 AM
His moves have been OK but he doesn't seem to be a dynamic leader or a wondeerful motivator to say the least. His comments are kind of robotic. How many of you heard Sparky's comments in the booth during Saturday's game? ...Pete Mackanin is no Sparky...

He's been a breathe of fresh air compared to the liveliness (or lack thereof) we've been hearing from Narron and Krivsky the last few years.

They broke the mold when Sparky was born; it's tough to compare anyone else to him.

Sea Ray
08-27-2007, 11:11 AM
He's been a breathe of fresh air compared to the liveliness (or lack thereof) we've been hearing from Narron and Krivsky the last few years.



Anyone would have been a breathe of fresh air which is the danger in evaluating this now. I'm trying to project how he'll handle the stale days that are inevitably in front of him.

BCubb2003
08-27-2007, 11:24 AM
My theory is that when a team loses long enough, the manager gets tainted by all the excuses he makes in the post-game comments. Eventually he's got nothing else to try. Another manager comes in, the new manager bump happens, and if the new manager doesn't do anything to screw it up, he can ride the wave to a longer lasting winning spell. Mackanin probably did do some good things with the lineup and bullpen to turn things around, but if he'd had a streak of bad luck soon after taking over, he'd be the one making excuses and wearing down his capital.

jojo
08-27-2007, 11:34 AM
Why wouldn't they? That happened 3-4 years ago and they don't have to be best friends to be on the same team.

Yep. Guillen and Washburn have managed alright this season.

JaxRed
08-27-2007, 11:42 AM
His moves have been OK but he doesn't seem to be a dynamic leader or a wonderful motivator to say the least. His comments are kind of robotic. How many of you heard Sparky's comments in the booth during Saturday's game? ...Pete Mackanin is no Sparky...


Are you seeing the same Pete Mackanin as me? This seems 100% off-base.

Highlifeman21
08-27-2007, 12:22 PM
Why wouldn't they? That happened 3-4 years ago and they don't have to be best friends to be on the same team.

I'm just assuming that Dunn might not be a fan of Silva, but I'm not Dunn, so I can't know for sure.

To this day, I still wish Dunn had gotten to Silva.

fearofpopvol1
08-27-2007, 12:37 PM
His moves have been OK but he doesn't seem to be a dynamic leader or a wonderful motivator to say the least. His comments are kind of robotic. How many of you heard Sparky's comments in the booth during Saturday's game? ...Pete Mackanin is no Sparky...

I think it's pretty hard to justifiy that claim. It's not like you live and breathe in the clubhouse. Just because his comments to the media don't seem to be earth shattering doesn't mean he's not great with the players. The players have said nothing but great things about Pete and they obviously seem to be responding to him.

Chip R
08-27-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm just assuming that Dunn might not be a fan of Silva, but I'm not Dunn, so I can't know for sure.


And OTOH, maybe Dunn would respect him for sticking up for his teammates. Most of the time, when someone gets plunked and it's not an accident, it's business, not personal. Dunn's probably forgotten all about it.

KronoRed
08-27-2007, 01:25 PM
To this day, I still wish Dunn had gotten to Silva.

He just needed to kick the catcher before setting off for the mound :cool:

BoydsOfSummer
08-27-2007, 02:24 PM
I'm liking Petey Mack a lot, but no way do I want the search to stop there. Somebody mentioned a one year deal. I'd have no problem with that. Like Roy said, he's earned it.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Mackanin (beginning of career) vs Larussa (end of career)

I know which one I'd take.

Chip R
08-27-2007, 03:00 PM
Mackanin (beginning of career) vs Larussa (end of career)

I know which one I'd take.


Me too. I'll take the guy with the rings.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2007, 03:07 PM
Me too. I'll take the guy with the rings.

Fair enough. But I'll take the guy who's hungry.

WVRedsFan
08-27-2007, 03:51 PM
I think it's pretty hard to justifiy that claim. It's not like you live and breathe in the clubhouse. Just because his comments to the media don't seem to be earth shattering doesn't mean he's not great with the players. The players have said nothing but great things about Pete and they obviously seem to be responding to him.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, and it's clear that I want a proven manager, but you heard nothing but good things about Jerry Narron when he took over too. It's not a barometer of player satisfaction. They're only sucking up a little.

Sea Ray
08-27-2007, 03:58 PM
Are you seeing the same Pete Mackanin as me? This seems 100% off-base.

Listen to his pre or post game comments. It'll remind you of the voice on "Noah" Weather Radio.

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2007, 03:58 PM
Fair enough. But I'll take the guy who's hungry.

Lots of guys are hungry.

I want the guy who has figured out how to order dinner.

Always Red
08-27-2007, 04:01 PM
I want the guy who has figured out how to order dinner.

And doesn't fall asleep in the car on the way home.

Sea Ray
08-27-2007, 04:02 PM
I think it's pretty hard to justifiy that claim. It's not like you live and breathe in the clubhouse. Just because his comments to the media don't seem to be earth shattering doesn't mean he's not great with the players. The players have said nothing but great things about Pete and they obviously seem to be responding to him.

Nobody needs to justify anything! It's just an observation for crying out loud.

Of course the players will speak glowingly because they're winning. It's as simple as that. If Mackanin's teams always play at a .600 clip we'll all love him. How will he handle the lows of a long season? That remains to be seen but don't get excited about player's comments after winning 6 games in a row.

fearofpopvol1
08-27-2007, 04:40 PM
I don't have a dog in this hunt, and it's clear that I want a proven manager, but you heard nothing but good things about Jerry Narron when he took over too. It's not a barometer of player satisfaction. They're only sucking up a little.

Yes, but Mack (at least thus far) is outperforming Narron. His management of the team (particularly the bullpen) is much better. In other words, he has a clue on the field, the team under him is producing and the players are speaking highly. That's more than could be said of Narron, even during his interim phase.

fearofpopvol1
08-27-2007, 04:41 PM
Nobody needs to justify anything! It's just an observation for crying out loud.

Of course the players will speak glowingly because they're winning. It's as simple as that. If Mackanin's teams always play at a .600 clip we'll all love him. How will he handle the lows of a long season? That remains to be seen but don't get excited about player's comments after winning 6 games in a row.

Yeah, but he's been with the team for more than 6 games and the team has a good record. It's a small sample size no doubt, but he is actually giving players on this team roles. Narron never successfully accomplished that and no doubt, it had bearing over the trainwreck of a situation that was earlier this year.

Sea Ray
08-27-2007, 04:49 PM
Narron never successfully accomplished that and no doubt, it had bearing over the trainwreck of a situation that was earlier this year.


You're right. Narron had a trainwreck and for that reason any decent succeeding manager will show a bounce. I don't think Mackanin is the answer but I don't see a lot of proven guys out there. I wanted Leyland a couple years ago. Unless they can get Davy Johnson I'm fine with a one yr contract for Mackanin.

jojo
08-27-2007, 08:38 PM
I actually think it's pretty darn silly to pay a manager $2-4M per.... Of course I think the impact of a manager isn't really that significant in general.

Blitz Dorsey
08-28-2007, 12:00 AM
It's really doesn't matter how cheap the manager comes unless you can convince me that they'll use the extra dough on pitching.

For example, if going out and signing a "name" manager means we are less-aggressive in the FA market I obviously don't like that. There just aren't any guys out there worth spending a bunch of money on. But if keeping Pete means we can be a little more aggressive, that is just another notch in his favor. I am already in the "keep Mackanin" camp for the most part (although I think there should be a search right after the season with maybe two other serious candidates at least) and I really don't think $$ will have a lot to do with it. But yeah, that is another reason -- as sad as it may be -- that he will get the job. Give him a one-year deal and see how he does. That is if no one better is found during the search.

Jpup
08-28-2007, 01:13 AM
Phil Garner anyone?

If there was one thing I was right about this year, it was the demise of the Houston Astros. That organization is in shambles IMO.

Ron Madden
08-28-2007, 02:56 AM
Gee, I don't know.

I think I'd rather pay a bit more for a GM and/or a Manager with the ability to identify good pitching, recognize good defense, and have some kind of clue about run production. ;)

Where are these kind of guys? :dunno:

Sea Ray
08-28-2007, 09:34 AM
It's really doesn't matter how cheap the manager comes unless you can convince me that they'll use the extra dough on pitching.




You're only going to save enough to get a middle reliever and that reliever will probably be a Stanton or a Cormier. Are you sure you want that?

Matt700wlw
08-28-2007, 11:16 PM
The doubleheader won't help his cause.

He managed like the man he replaced.

redsfan4445
08-28-2007, 11:27 PM
The doubleheader won't help his cause.

He managed like the man he replaced.

EXACTLY!!!! I dont want him back managing like this!!

MUST win games.. he gives them away to Pittsburgh!

westofyou
08-28-2007, 11:40 PM
The doubleheader won't help his cause.

He managed like the man he replaced.

Have you ever looked at Sparky's DH Lineups? Or LaRussa's or Bobby Cox's?

Hardly a shock that the bench lengthened for a team that was 10 games under .500 at the start of the day.

If most people had their way the Reds stat line at the end of the year would be 8 starters with 600 ab's each.

redsfan4445
08-28-2007, 11:42 PM
they had a off day.. in a few weeks they have the winter off, they have plenty of time to rest!

westofyou
08-28-2007, 11:44 PM
they had a off day.. in a few weeks they have the winter off, they have plenty of time to rest!
Right, because baseball is soooooooo easy.

WVRedsFan
08-28-2007, 11:46 PM
Have you ever looked at Sparky's DH Lineups? Or LaRussa's or Bobby Cox's?

Hardly a shock that the bench lengthened for a team that was 10 games under .500 at the start of the day.

If most people had their way the Reds stat line at the end of the year would be 8 starters with 600 ab's each.

Sure have. And he made it work as did LaRussa and Cox. This guy's inexperience allowed him to believe that Jason Ellison (fodder) and Norris Hopper (disguised fodder) should be starters. I defy you to show me that Sparky did that. And I also defy you to show me a team Sparky managed with so much junk on the bench.

pedro
08-28-2007, 11:52 PM
I really have no problem with tonights DH lineups. Although I'd have liked to have Hamilton start at least one of those games.

Sometimes you have to give guys a rest. Two lefties in a DH is the right time.

westofyou
08-29-2007, 12:01 AM
Sure have. And he made it work as did LaRussa and Cox. This guy's inexperience allowed him to believe that Jason Ellison (fodder) and Norris Hopper (disguised fodder) should be starters. I defy you to show me that Sparky did that. And I also defy you to show me a team Sparky managed with so much junk on the bench.

You realize Sparky managed in the AL more then in the NL.

Shoot look at this 1982 2nd game lineup


BATTING

Detroit Tigers AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Brookens 3b 5 1 2 2 0 0 0 2
Turner rf 4 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Gibson cf 5 1 2 0 0 1 5 0
Ivie dh 4 0 1 0 1 1 0 0
Herndon lf 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Leach 1b 4 0 2 1 0 0 10 1
Whitaker 2b 4 0 1 0 0 1 1 0
Wockenfuss c 3 1 1 0 1 0 5 0
DeJohn ss 3 0 1 0 1 0 2 6
Underwood p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Lopez p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Totals 37 3 11 3 4 3 24 11


Now if you want to troll for the games that Bench played CF or Ambrister got a start have at it, you could sit half of that lineup and still be the best team on the field.

My point is if it's "Stupid" when you sit a .606 OPS lefty against a left hander over a piece of fodder (that happens to be hitting .333/.364/.405 against lefties) then I guess I'm stupid too because it makes sense to me.

pedro
08-29-2007, 12:06 AM
You realize Sparky managed in the AL more then in the NL.

Shoot look at this 1982 2nd game lineup


BATTING

Detroit Tigers AB R H RBI BB SO PO A
Brookens 3b 5 1 2 2 0 0 0 2
Turner rf 4 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Gibson cf 5 1 2 0 0 1 5 0
Ivie dh 4 0 1 0 1 1 0 0
Herndon lf 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Leach 1b 4 0 2 1 0 0 10 1
Whitaker 2b 4 0 1 0 0 1 1 0
Wockenfuss c 3 1 1 0 1 0 5 0
DeJohn ss 3 0 1 0 1 0 2 6
Underwood p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Lopez p 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Totals 37 3 11 3 4 3 24 11


Now if you want to troll for the games that Bench played CF or Ambrister got a start have at it, you could sit half of that lineup and still be the best team on the field.

My point is if it's "Stupid" when you sit a .606 OPS lefty against a left hander over a piece of fodder (that happens to be hitting .333/.364/.405 against lefties) then I guess I'm stupid too because it makes sense to me.

I can't believe Sparky started Rick Leach. Didn't he know his OPS was .633?

He ruined Howard Johnson's career with the Tigers. ;)

WVRedsFan
08-29-2007, 12:07 AM
You realize Sparky managed in the AL more then in the NL.

Now if you want to troll for the games that Bench played CF or Ambrister got a start have at it, you could sit half of that lineup and still be the best team on the field.

My point is if it's "Stupid" when you sit a .606 OPS lefty against a left hander over a piece of fodder (that happens to be hitting .333/.364/.405 against lefties) then I guess I'm stupid too because it makes sense to me.

To each his own, I guess, and I'll respect your opinion, but I can't remember those lineups not working to some extent because Sparky know who to play and when. Hopper and Ellison would be in the minors in most clubs and certainly not starting.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:03 AM
To each his own, I guess, and I'll respect your opinion, but I can't remember those lineups not working to some extent because Sparky know who to play and when. Hopper and Ellison would be in the minors in most clubs and certainly not starting.

Norris Hopper had 4 hits in game two. How on God's earth did that contribute to us losing? And did anyone see the impact Dunn had in game two? Ellison went hitless in game one, but who's to say Dunn wouldn't have?

Cyclone792
08-29-2007, 02:13 AM
And did anyone see the impact Dunn had in game two? Ellison went hitless in game one, but who's to say Dunn wouldn't have?

Dunn actually reached base safely twice out of four plate appearances in the second game and also swiped a bag. Meanwhile, Ellison has reached base safely twice in 16 plate appearances in a Reds uniform.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:15 AM
Dunn actually reached base safely twice out of four plate appearances in the second game and also swiped a bag. Meanwhile, Ellison has reached base safely twice in 16 plate appearances in a Reds uniform.

Ok, fair enough. But I think people are WAY overreacting to this one doubleheader. No manager will ever be good enough for this fanbase. One bad game or two, and it's throw somebody under the bus time.

toledodan
08-29-2007, 02:32 AM
Norris Hopper had 4 hits in game two. How on God's earth did that contribute to us losing? And did anyone see the impact Dunn had in game two? Ellison went hitless in game one, but who's to say Dunn wouldn't have?


dunn could have went hitless like ellison but pitchers must respect dunn's power. i've never pitched in a major league game but i know who i would rather face 99 out of 100 times.

Ron Madden
08-29-2007, 03:28 AM
I don't want Pete Mackanin or anyone like him to Manage this team in 2008 or ever again.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 10:10 AM
If most people had their way the Reds stat line at the end of the year would be 8 starters with 600 ab's each.

This sums up a reality of major league baseball. The fact is you can't play your 8 best guys every day. You can't play your best 8 guys both games of a DH. If you can't accept that then you can't accept reality. Cal Ripkens only come around once every 50 years.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 11:46 AM
This sums up a reality of major league baseball. The fact is you can't play your 8 best guys every day. You can't play your best 8 guys both games of a DH. If you can't accept that then you can't accept reality. Cal Ripkens only come around once every 50 years.

Thank you. Unfortunately, life isn't a video game. Some guys need days off occasionally, and some guys need to play.

SteelSD
08-29-2007, 11:51 AM
This sums up a reality of major league baseball. The fact is you can't play your 8 best guys every day. You can't play your best 8 guys both games of a DH. If you can't accept that then you can't accept reality. Cal Ripkens only come around once every 50 years.

That's really an oversimplification of what Mackanin did last night. Those lineups weren't a result of injury and/or players needing a game off (after a night off, nonetheless). Mackanin made conscious decisions based on who he though would perform. Nothing more, nothing less.

lollipopcurve
08-29-2007, 11:58 AM
That's really an oversimplification of what Mackanin did last night. Those lineups weren't a result of injury and/or players needing a game off (after a night off, nonetheless). Mackanin made conscious decisions based on who he though would perform. Nothing more, nothing less.

Which proves what? The guy's been at the helm while the team's played great baseball. There is far more evidence pointing to good decisions than to bad -- that is, if you like performance-based results.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 12:09 PM
I don't want Pete Mackanin or anyone like him to Manage this team in 2008 or ever again.

May I ask why? I just don't see what Mackanin has done to be pushed to the side already. I can see your argument for wanting someone else, but you don't even believe that Mack deserves a look?

pedro
08-29-2007, 12:11 PM
I don't want Pete Mackanin or anyone like him to Manage this team in 2008 or ever again.

Good luck with that.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 02:40 PM
Those lineups weren't a result of injury and/or players needing a game off (after a night off, nonetheless). Mackanin made conscious decisions based on who he though would perform. Nothing more, nothing less.


I disagree. I think Mackanin did feel that he couldn't start the same outfielders for both games due to it being a DH.


I do think it was folly to not start Hamilton in one of the games and I see no reason to start Ellison.

Dom Heffner
08-29-2007, 09:24 PM
I don't want Pete Mackanin or anyone like him to Manage this team in 2008 or ever again.

You know, the Red should have taken what I now call the "Clay Buccholz approach":

No matter how good he does, he's not staying.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 09:26 PM
Ok, fair enough. But I think people are WAY overreacting to this one doubleheader. No manager will ever be good enough for this fanbase. One bad game or two, and it's throw somebody under the bus time.

Losing while the best players sit is one way to get the fanbase upset.

Losing while using your best players is sometimes the way things go.

Pete lost by NOT using his best players.

SteelSD
08-29-2007, 11:55 PM
Which proves what? The guy's been at the helm while the team's played great baseball. There is far more evidence pointing to good decisions than to bad -- that is, if you like performance-based results.

And Jerry Narron was also credited for the Reds playing better under his watch as interim. Mackanin's done some decent things. I like his demeanor, his ability to articulate, his sense of humor, and his ability to better identify when a pitcher appears gassed and then acting appropriately. But I don't at all like his propensity to focus on small sample sizes and his over-reliance on LH/RH "matchup" lineups. I loved this quote:

"I was hoping he'd at least get on because David Ross was going to pinch-hit next and he is 2 for 3 in his career against (closer) Matt Capps," Mackanin added.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2007/08/29/ddn082907redsweb.html

Thast's juts awesome. Maybe Pete should have just used Dave Ross to pinch hit instead of Dunn then. After all, Ross IS 2 for 3 versus the pitcher Dunn faced. Of course, Dave Ross has also posted a line of .179 BA/.257 OBP/.353 SLG versus righties this season and a three-year split versus RHP of .226 BA/.303 OBP/.425 SLG. His RH/LH differential over that span is nearly 100 points to the bad versus northpaws. Oh wait! It was Matt Capps on the mound so we can just throw those 540 AB out the window because David Ross apparently defies gravity, physics, and probability because he's two hitless AB shy of hitting .200 versus Matt Capps instead of .667.


I disagree. I think Mackanin did feel that he couldn't start the same outfielders for both games due to it being a DH.

I do think it was folly to not start Hamilton in one of the games and I see no reason to start Ellison.

We're not talking about Catchers or Shortstops here. We're talking about corner Outfielders- including Dunn who's started nearly every game over the past three years and who sports a .836 OPS versus LHP over that span.

Oh, and here's a pretty good indication from the same article I've cited that Mackanin wasn't simply "resting" guys:

"Today certainly isn't what we were anticipating," said Mackanin. "I didn't like the fact they had two pretty good lefthanders (Gorzelanny, Paul Maholm) starting against us and we all know our righthanded lineup is not as prestigious as our lefthanded lineup."

Now, I'm all for a RH/LH lineups if it ends up being only a tweak to the normal lineup. Established platoons and all that based on some kind of real logic. But that's not what we saw last night. Nowhere near. Mackanin chose those squads based on small sample size matchups and who he did and didn't think would perform based on such.

Ron Madden
08-30-2007, 03:00 AM
May I ask why? I just don't see what Mackanin has done to be pushed to the side already. I can see your argument for wanting someone else, but you don't even believe that Mack deserves a look?

I've heard tell that everybody has a right to an opinion.

In my humble opinion Mackanin equals Narron.

Let's look at one of the reasons why the Reds have not performed against LH Starters in 2007.

One reason is because guys like Narron and Mackanin would rather give AB's to inferior players based on which side of the plate they stand in to hit.

Another is these guys always believe LHRP like Merker or Stanton are more effective against LH hitters while all of the numbers show otherwise.

Mack has done well so far but don't bet on him to keep it up.

sonny
08-30-2007, 03:08 AM
Easy solution to the managerial debate.

The Reds perform well under a new skipper for about 1/3 of the season, no? Just hire a new guy every 55 games or so. Championship!

Ron Madden
08-30-2007, 04:19 AM
Easy solution to the managerial debate.

The Reds perform well under a new skipper for about 1/3 of the season, no? Just hire a new guy every 55 games or so. Championship!

No, That wouldn't work.

Far too many Managers are hired just because they have spent most of thier lives in Baseball.

Whenever the chips are down they are gonna go by "The BooK".

It may take a few years... but sooner or later GM's and Managers are going to have to stop hiding behind "The Book" and pay attention to some numbers that are more informative than "well this is the way it's always been".

lollipopcurve
08-30-2007, 09:28 AM
It may take a few years... but sooner or later GM's and Managers are going to have to stop hiding behind "The Book" and pay attention to some numbers that are more informative than "well this is the way it's always been".

Ah yes, let's get a mathematician to manage a collection of 25 professional athletes. That'll work.

Unassisted
08-30-2007, 09:59 AM
Easy solution to the managerial debate.

The Reds perform well under a new skipper for about 1/3 of the season, no? Just hire a new guy every 55 games or so. Championship!

Rather than go through the hassle of 3 searches a year, maybe they can hire specialists and rotate them in the manager's job during the season?

In March, April and May, "Fast Start Guy" would take the helm. FSG is a real player's manager. Everyone likes to play for him. He makes the players look forward to coming to the ballpark. Too much of FSG is a bad thing, though, because his easygoing demeanor leads the players to forget the importance of winning as the weather warms up.

That's why in June, FSG heads down to the Rookie League teams and lets the Dog Days Disciplinarian step in and take over. DDD makes everyone bear down and focus. No detail is overlooked, and mental lapses during a game result in a quick trip to his doghouse. He's tough, but he knows how to win and the fans love how he runs out of the dugout to scream at the umpires at least once a game. DDD has been known to let slip a few off-the-record anecdotes about players' antics to the local media, so they love him, too.

By the end of August, the players are tired of walking on eggshells, so it's time for DDD to head back to the scouting ranks and bring in Mr. Stretch Run. MSR is more relaxed, so the players barely notice how he keeps one eye on the standings at all times. They're thrilled at how much lighter the mood is now that he's in the clubhouse. MSR keeps a steady hand on the tiller. He's smooth with the players and he's always got a great soundbite for the media. He makes the game fun again, but he's really more like a GM with his focus on the big picture. He only dashes from the dugout to wave his arms at the umpires when the game is on the line. He's been sitting next to the GM at games since March, and he's friends with the AA and AAA managers, so he knows the roster inside and out. He will be just what the team needs in September and in the playoffs.

:beerme:

westofyou
08-30-2007, 10:00 AM
I've heard tell that everybody has a right to an opinion.

In my humble opinion Mackanin equals Narron.

Let's look at one of the reasons why the Reds have not performed against LH Starters in 2007.

One reason is because guys like Narron and Mackanin would rather give AB's to inferior players based on which side of the plate they stand in to hit.

Another is these guys always believe LHRP like Merker or Stanton are more effective against LH hitters while all of the numbers show otherwise.

Mack has done well so far but don't bet on him to keep it up.

Narron's team last year against LH's

.271/.354/.466/.820


Year before

.259/.346/.431/.777

This years team

.253/.314/.413/.727

RANDY IN INDY
08-30-2007, 10:04 AM
Maybe they just need a couple of righthanded bats that make lefthanders pay for their mistakes.

BRM
08-30-2007, 10:05 AM
Maybe they just need a couple of righthanded bats that make lefthanders pay for their mistakes.

You know, it probably is that simple. :)

westofyou
08-30-2007, 10:11 AM
Maybe they just need a couple of righthanded bats that make lefthanders pay for their mistakes.

Maybe in that double header they were trying anything that could work... possibly by looking at the numbers they thought, hell it's a DH and well... we've been sucking against LH's and some guys have been clamoring to play and..... well that's baseball.

pedro
08-30-2007, 11:36 AM
I've heard tell that everybody has a right to an opinion.

In my humble opinion Mackanin equals Narron.

Let's look at one of the reasons why the Reds have not performed against LH Starters in 2007.

One reason is because guys like Narron and Mackanin would rather give AB's to inferior players based on which side of the plate they stand in to hit.

Another is these guys always believe LHRP like Merker or Stanton are more effective against LH hitters while all of the numbers show otherwise.

Mack has done well so far but don't bet on him to keep it up.

I think Mackanin has done a much better job of handling the pitching staff.

dfs
08-30-2007, 11:42 AM
Maybe they just need a couple of righthanded bats that make lefthanders pay for their mistakes.
Where have you gone Rich Aurilia?

Dude smoked lefthanded pitching.

cincrazy
08-30-2007, 12:13 PM
I've heard tell that everybody has a right to an opinion.

In my humble opinion Mackanin equals Narron.

Let's look at one of the reasons why the Reds have not performed against LH Starters in 2007.

One reason is because guys like Narron and Mackanin would rather give AB's to inferior players based on which side of the plate they stand in to hit.

Another is these guys always believe LHRP like Merker or Stanton are more effective against LH hitters while all of the numbers show otherwise.

Mack has done well so far but don't bet on him to keep it up.

I wasn't knocking your opinion. I was just wanting to see where you stood, that's all. But is there really anyone else out there worth getting if LaRussa resigns with the Cards?

CrackerJack
08-30-2007, 12:23 PM
The thought of Larussa makes me want to puke. It's like pursuing Bill Cowher to coach the Bengals.

And yes, I agree that Mac = more Narron, Miley nonsense.

Do a thorough search, base the offer on career credentials, relative experience, references and previous success in the position, not just because a guy held things together in an interim situation, where a team had nowhere to go but up.

cincrazy
08-30-2007, 12:47 PM
Pete Mackanin's career credentials are fabulous. The guy's won at every level. He's done more than hold things together, IMHO. He threw us back into the race, if only for a week. People talk all the time about Miley and Narron failing, but nobody ever talks about Jack McKeon succeeding.

Big names don't always mean big wins. Ask the Colorado Rockies how the Jim Leyland experiment worked out.

jojo
08-30-2007, 06:45 PM
Rather than go through the hassle of 3 searches a year, maybe they can hire specialists and rotate them in the manager's job during the season?


:beerme:

Didn't Wrigley try that already.......

Matt700wlw
08-30-2007, 06:46 PM
You know, it probably is that simple. :)

So, today, they add another left handed outfielder to the Louisville arsenal.