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View Full Version : Mack managed like Narron tonight.. AWFUL decisions!



redsfan4445
08-29-2007, 12:13 AM
big games and the lineups were awful.. Hamilton doesn't start, Bronson taken out after only 80 pitches when we already lost 1st game and we NEEDED the 2nd game.. (if he was being held back for Saturday, he should have started game #1!!!!!)
Doesn't pinch hit for weak hitting Ellison in the 7th.. , top ninth.. Pirates not holding Phillips on, he isn't told to steal second.. they were not even worried about him and it was Josh Phelps behind the plate that doesn't catch hardly at all!!

Sad... after watching the lousy Bengal game.. has hope maybe the Reds might get exciting and it was flushed down in 2 games!

sorry to vent.. just frustrating..

RBA
08-29-2007, 12:32 AM
If the Reds ever had a chance or a future chance they need to play Hamilton despite the match-up. The Reds fortunes will either sink or swim on what Hamilton does. Bottom line, you need to play him.

redsfan4445
08-29-2007, 12:34 AM
im shocked Bronson said he didnt have it after 80 pitches.. BIG game and he cant even suck it up to help his team.. i apologize to mack about the bronson issue but not the part sitting Hamilton! OR batting Cantu with 1 homer 4th!!

flyer85
08-29-2007, 12:34 AM
If the Reds ever had a chance or a future chance they need to play Hamilton despite the match-up. The Reds fortunes will either sink or swim on what Hamilton does. Bottom line, you need to play him.you obviously are missing out on how good the Happy Hopper is.

westofyou
08-29-2007, 12:36 AM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

knuckler
08-29-2007, 12:38 AM
I fail to understand why Ellison EVER starts when there are any three other healthy outfielders.

redsfan4445
08-29-2007, 12:38 AM
well he cant improve if he doesnt hit against leftys!
ok so Ellison is a better option to play over Josh ?? PLEASE!!

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 01:14 AM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

Why should Ellison?

I don't even care if Josh only started one game....but Ellison? He shouldn't start any

flyer85
08-29-2007, 01:19 AM
I don't even care if Josh only started one game....but Ellison? He shouldn't start anyI was told he was stopgap only because the Reds were short of outfielders at the time ... yeah right.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 01:20 AM
I was told he was stopgap only because the Reds were short of outfielders at the time ... yeah right.

I can find you 2 in Louisville (one can also play 1st) who can do better than Ellison....even though they're (gasp) left handed!

SteelSD
08-29-2007, 01:21 AM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

Nearly a 90 point IsoD versus LHP and the fact that he needs the reps?

In short, especially during a lost season, make him prove that he's Trot Nixon rather than just assuming it.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 01:22 AM
I can find you 2 in Louisville (one can also play 1st) who can do better than Ellison....even though they're (gasp) left handed!I'm pretty sure you can find two in Chattanooga.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 01:34 AM
How many times this season has our manager left Arroyo in in a situation such as this, only to have Arroyo run into a wall and give up 3 runs? And as one would suspect, the manager gets BASHED on redszone. Now, our manager does the correct thing in taking Arroyo out. The manager (of course, it's ALWAYS the manager's fault) gets the blame, and it's allllllllllllllll his fault. It's a lose-lose situation. Losing the two games tonight was rough. But Mack's not the one that went out there and lost it, the player's did.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 01:36 AM
But Mack's not the one that went out there and lost it, the player's did.just like he didn't win the six before.

HumnHilghtFreel
08-29-2007, 01:42 AM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

http://imdb.com/title/tt0091763/ I'm starting to think that this is Wayne's favorite movie.

harangatang
08-29-2007, 02:22 AM
Krivsky managed like Krivsky should be the thread title.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:56 AM
just like he didn't win the six before.

I don't recall ever saying that he did.

Eric_Davis
08-29-2007, 05:27 AM
From Hal McCoy:

"What did we strand, 13 runners?" said Mackanin. "We had chances. And we had the guy (Dunn) up there in the ninth with a chance to put us ahead. We just didn't get it done."

Or Dunn.

"I was hoping he'd at least get on because David Ross was going to pinch-hit next and he is 2 for 3 in his career against (closer) Matt Capps," Mackanin added.

BRM
08-29-2007, 10:45 AM
From John Fay:



A lot of posters are beating up on Mackanin for overdoing the left-right thing. I agree. I'd rather have Josh Hamilton or Adam Dunn in there than Jason Ellison. I don't care if Sandy Koufax is the left-hander in question.

westofyou
08-29-2007, 11:10 AM
http://imdb.com/title/tt0091763/ I'm starting to think that this is Wayne's favorite movie.

Wayne?

Ummm the manager made that lineup.

John McGraw and Casey Stengal liked those Platoons too.

westofyou
08-29-2007, 11:36 AM
Bronson taken out after only 80 pitches when we already lost 1st game and we NEEDED the 2nd game.. (if he was being held back for Saturday, he should have started game #1!!!!!) http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/


Bronson said he felt gassed and that he thought the bullpen had a better shot of finishing it off than he did. Said he felt pretty much dead tired from the second inning on.


Bronson: "Yeah, I was toast man, since the second inning. It’s one of them days and you don’t really know why. I felt like I was low on fuel, I was a little shaky, like when you’re hungry. The bullpen’s been throwing good and I thought they had a better shot at getting nine outs than I did."

Roy Tucker
08-29-2007, 11:42 AM
I thought the decision to pull Arroyo was a good one and I was pleasantly surprised Mackinin did it.

Yeah, he had thrown only 80 pitches and it was only the 6th inning, but his pitches were starting to lose their bite and he was getting tagged. Sure signs of him getting tired. I'd seen this movie before and I don't like the ending.

I didn't like the move of starting Ellison. He's fine as a late-inning defensive replacement or pinch runner, but he has pretty well proven he has no stick.

Always Red
08-29-2007, 12:02 PM
I thought the decision to pull Arroyo was a good one and I was pleasantly surprised Mackinin did it.

Yeah, he had thrown only 80 pitches and it was only the 6th inning, but his pitches were starting to lose their bite and he was getting tagged. Sure signs of him getting tired. I'd seen this movie before and I don't like the ending.

I didn't like the move of starting Ellison. He's fine as a late-inning defensive replacement or pinch runner, but he has pretty well proven he has no stick.

Good call on both accounts Roy. Hamilton should have played instead of Ellison, but I'm OK with all of the other decisions- Hopper, Gonzo, Ross, etc.

If the pitcher tells you he's done, then he's done. I'm glad he took him out, too. Although with the way he was pitching, and his low pitch count, I was hoping he could go another inning or two. But if he feels bad, you have to get him out of there.

nate
08-29-2007, 12:38 PM
If the pitcher tells you he's done, then he's done. I'm glad he took him out, too. Although with the way he was pitching, and his low pitch count, I was hoping he could go another inning or two. But if he feels bad, you have to get him out of there.

That's really a good point. So often when the pitcher goes bad we hear him say "I felt fine, I could go another 13 innings!" Obviously, they want to compete every time.

But when the guy says he's tired, you know he's really tired.

Even so, Bronson was pretty good last night!

M2
08-29-2007, 12:55 PM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

My thoughts exactly. Josh Hamilton has his uses, but hitting southpaws, to date, hasn't been one of them. Gorzelanny and Maholm are poison to LHBs for the most part. In games like that Josh Hamilton's best use is as a guy coming off the bench. Mackanin probably should have used him to PH for Ross in the 9th of the 2nd game instead of Valentin, but that's about the only legitimate criticism I can see of his use yesterday.

I've got some sympathy for the notion of giving him more reps against southpaws because it's a lost season, but Ellison's been serviceable against LHPs throught his career (it's been his sole offensive use). There's a solid argument he's no longer good for even that, but if you're going to have him on the roster his theoretical purpose would be to get some spot starts against tough lefties.

toledodan
08-29-2007, 01:28 PM
There's a solid argument he's no longer good for even that, but if you're going to have him on the roster his theoretical purpose would be to get some spot starts against tough lefties.


if it was up to me ellison wouldn't be on the roster.

jojo
08-29-2007, 06:53 PM
My thoughts exactly. Josh Hamilton has his uses, but hitting southpaws, to date, hasn't been one of them. Gorzelanny and Maholm are poison to LHBs for the most part. In games like that Josh Hamilton's best use is as a guy coming off the bench. Mackanin probably should have used him to PH for Ross in the 9th of the 2nd game instead of Valentin, but that's about the only legitimate criticism I can see of his use yesterday.

I've got some sympathy for the notion of giving him more reps against southpaws because it's a lost season, but Ellison's been serviceable against LHPs throught his career (it's been his sole offensive use). There's a solid argument he's no longer good for even that, but if you're going to have him on the roster his theoretical purpose would be to get some spot starts against tough lefties.

I agree. People got a big disappointment pie in the face yesterday and understandably they're frustrated. Pete is getting all of the flack and frankly it's flack in hyperbole regarding the lineup. What he did last night wasn't even in the same ballpark of recklessly incompetent relative to how McLaren used his pen in last night's Ms game.

red-in-la
08-29-2007, 07:35 PM
.226/.314/.306 vs Lefties for Hamilton.

Why should he start outright against them again?

Magic?

Is it because Mr. Ellison is such an improvement?

.297/.297/.324

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 07:38 PM
Is it because Mr. Ellison is such an improvement?

.297/.297/.324

Against lefties for the season, after yesterday, he's batting .120...plus he's batting .174 at night, and .063 this month, against ALL pitchers.


http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=425533

jojo
08-29-2007, 07:42 PM
Against lefties for the season, after yesterday, he's batting .120...plus he's batting .174 at night, and .063 this month, against ALL pitchers.


http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=425533

As a statistical argument, 25 ABs is meaningless.

It's embarrassing to listen to on air personalities harp on such a split.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 07:45 PM
As a statistical argument, 25 ABs is meaningless.

It's embarrassing to listen to on air personalities harp on such a split.

I guess that's the problem with having a guy like Ellison on the roster...the manager, for some reason, will find a way to use him, over guys who he shouldn't be used over....

jojo
08-29-2007, 07:53 PM
I guess that's the problem with having a guy like Ellison on the roster...the manager, for some reason, will find a way to use him, over guys who he shouldn't be used over....

Using Ellison against a tough lefty while spelling a regular isn't a no brainer moron move like some have portrayed it...

If you want to argue that Dunn is a better option against lefties, I'd agree. I have zero problem with Dunn's ability to hit lefties.

GAC
08-30-2007, 09:33 AM
I guess that's the problem with having a guy like Ellison on the roster...the manager, for some reason, will find a way to use him, over guys who he shouldn't be used over....

It was a double-header.

Anyone on here ever play in one before? It's very hard on the ol' body. It's why Valentin caught the first game, and then Ross the second. Yet some, that night, were complaining that Ross was in there catching the nightcap, and Javier wasn't. It's also why you saw Hopper and Ellison in the OF in the first game (Dunn and Hamilton rested), and then in the nightcap - Dunn and Hamilton in there (and Jr rested).

And these guys being rested all made appearances and went an illustrious 0 fer 8 in both games. So they had opportunities.

Managers hate double headers. And that is what you do to give some of your guys a reprieve. It's been a long season already.

IMO - much ado about nothing.

Always Red
08-30-2007, 09:48 AM
It's also why you saw Hopper and Ellison in the OF in the first game (Dunn and Hamilton rested), and then in the nightcap - Dunn and Hamilton in there (and Jr rested).

And these guys being rested all made appearances and went an illustrious 0 fer 8 in both games. So they had opportunities.

Managers hate double headers. And that is what you do to give some of your guys a reprieve. It's been a long season already.

IMO - much ado about nothing.

Except it didn't happen that way, GAC. Ellison started, and Hamilton did not start either game of the DH.

Apparently, Mack felt that Ellison in the lineup gives his team a better chance to win than Hamilton. I disagree with that.


I have no problems with all of the other guys playing.

Here's the way I see it: Monday was an off day. Yes, the season is a grind, but everyone's just had a day off. Your team is closer to the top than it has been all season long (this is key, to me). For me, that makes it time to put the pedal to the metal just a little bit, not a time to back off, and see if Jason Ellison can handle lefties better than Josh Hamilton. That's all. Like I said, I have no problem with any of the other changes and guys not playing both games.

It might not be a big deal; Josh Hamilton might have struck out 4 times, who knows? But we'll never know.

Who gives your team a better chance to win, Jason Ellison, or Josh Hamilton?

PS- btw, I think Mack is doing a fine job, overall. In fact, I'd be happy with a one year contract for him for next year. This is no indictment of his overall work, just one small criticism I have of the DH. Some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you. I think it was just one of those days. But I still would have had Hammy in there for one game.

westofyou
08-30-2007, 11:15 AM
Who gives your team a better chance to win, Jason Ellison, or Josh Hamilton?

Against LH's?

Jury's still out on Hamilton being any help at all in those situations.

And despite the years numbers historically Ellison has been better against them.

So I'll say the answer to your question is one fraught with variables that were not introduced in the original question.

nate
08-30-2007, 11:55 AM
Oddly, Pete's "trifecta" (NoHo / Elison / Cantu) did OK the other night vs. Dunn / Hamilton / Hatteberg. Yeah, I'd like to see Hammy and Dunn out there over NoHo and Ellison. NoHo did manage to get on (and sometimes off) base quite a bit and Cantu got the Reds' only HR on the night. Ellison looked like he needed a GPS at the plate and Hammy hit the ball hard, just right at someone.

And no, I don't really care to see Ellison out there unless its the 16th inning.

redsmetz
08-30-2007, 11:57 AM
I'm guessing that as the season winds down (and despite a vestage of "being in it"), the club is trying to get a look at some of these players to see if they'll have any value next year (or as a chip). I'm guessing Ellison is showing them that he doesn't have any value.

jojo
08-30-2007, 01:17 PM
Monday wasn't exactly an off day....it was a travel day. It's not really the same thing IMHO.

nate
08-30-2007, 01:24 PM
Monday wasn't exactly an off day....it was a travel day. It's not really the same thing IMHO.

Right, so the "stamina" slider only regains 75% rather than 100%.

;)