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cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:10 AM
I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.

TOBTTReds
08-29-2007, 02:16 AM
I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.

I dont think people here honestly dislike him as a player, at least I don't. But the reason why I don't like him in the lineup is because he is taking valuable AB's away from guys like Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton. That doesn't mean never start him. Also, when Marty thinks that Hopper should be a replacement for Dunn, you start to dislike Hopper a little bit thinking that Marty is a moron.

Although Richy was very good for this team last year, I couldn't stand him. He was taking AB's away from EdE, which I didn't like at all. If he played SS, he had zero range...kind of like Kepp, but much worse.

As far as Hopper making things happen on the base paths...he was Awful today. Tripped around 2nd. Got the worst jump stealing, so bad that he never should have continued and just killed a possible rally.

I like Hops, just not as a full-time starter, and I think that is what people get upset about when they hear about playing him.

toledodan
08-29-2007, 02:18 AM
i know i don't dislike hopper. i think he's earned a roster spot on the reds. i think most people including myself are upset that hamilton didn't start either game. ellison shouldn't be anything but a pinch runner or a defensive replacement. the fact he started a game and was a pinch hitter is BS. i had no problem with hopper starting both games but some of the other moves left alot to be desired.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:20 AM
I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.

Razor Shines
08-29-2007, 02:26 AM
I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.

I honestly haven't read where anyone on here said that Hopper shouldn't be on the major league roster or should not ever start.

I think most (including me) see him as a spot starter and should not be in a straight platoon with Hamilton. But it seems to me as if your making an argument against a viewpoint that doesn't really exist. IMHO.

toledodan
08-29-2007, 02:27 AM
I understand and respect your viewpoint. But that isn't the viewpoint of many around here. I can understand if he's taking at bats away consistently from our big three, but the fact is Griffey needs days off every now and then. And judging from his past August and September's, it's not a bad idea for Dunn either.

I don't want Hopper starting on this team. But I like him, and I think he can help us in the future. And I'm afraid that if we do trade Dunn or let him walk, Hopper will be the scapegoat (unfairly), and that won't be good for him or the team.


if we trade dunn or let him walk it won't be for giving norris hopper a starting job. it will be a spot for "the boss" jay bruce to play everyday next season.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:40 AM
I honestly haven't read where anyone on here said that Hopper shouldn't be on the major league roster or should not ever start.

I think most (including me) see him as a spot starter and should not be in a straight platoon with Hamilton. But it seems to me as if your making an argument against a viewpoint that doesn't really exist. IMHO.

I just read a post tonight where someone stated that Hopper would be in the minors of any other organization, but he's starting for us.

And I agree with your viewpoint, he should only be a spot starter. But a lot of what I've read around here focuses on what he's NOT (Adam Dunn). Guys like Marty have called him a "winning" player, and that's irked many on this board. That then leads to talk of him being a pure "singles" hitter, and so on and so on, to where it's nothing but negative talk about him.

IMHO, many people around here see him as Dunn's "replacement," and instead of directing that anger towards Hopper, it should be instead directed towards the FO (if that indeed ends up happening... lets hope not).

Cyclone792
08-29-2007, 02:41 AM
I'm interested in the reasons for the hatred of Norris Hopper on this board. The guy has hit over .300 in around 200 or so at bats, he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths. What am I not getting here? Is the guy a future All Star? Probably not. But we can't appreciate a player like this? Just because he doesn't have five tool talent, or because Marty likes him, he has to be banished to the minors forever, or isn't entitled to starting a game or two? I truly, honestly, do not understand this. Please explain.

I'm not sure I know anybody who dislikes Norris Hopper. I know I don't dislike Norris Hopper.

But the interesting trait with Norris Hopper is he represents an entity that's generally overvalued, and when a player becomes overvalued by an organization then that organization generally utilizes that player in a manner that costs their team runs over the long haul.

Hopper does things that casual fans like. He hustles, he runs fast, he makes contact, he'll hit for a decent batting average, and he generally gives off the perception that he's busting his tail all the time. All those things are good to have in a player on your team. There's nothing wrong with those traits. The problem is since he has zero power and rarely walks, his overall offensive game involves making too many outs and not acquiring enough bases, and that total offensive package Hopper possesses is actually much less impressive than most fans believe. The actual run value of his contributions aren't near high enough to justify a significant portion of playing time, and they're also typically not near high enough to be worth what most casual fans believe they're worth.

Stick a player like Hopper in your starting lineup once a week near the bottom of your order, and you're using him in a way that helps the team. Stick him in your starting lineup three or four times a week, especially at the top of the lineup, and you're overvaluing him to the point of hurting your team due to his limited overall value.

MrCinatit
08-29-2007, 07:42 AM
I like Norris Hopper quite a bit - as a bench player. I think, in fact, he would be a very valuable bench player.
Unfortunately, this team has shown recently to overvalue bench players, and attempt to turn them into every day players. They they go from being valuable bench players to mediocre starting players. Unfortunately, I am seeing a similar trend at this point with Hopper.

LoganBuck
08-29-2007, 07:49 AM
Playing Hopper is like buying a 83 Volkswagen, and converting it to run on french fry oil, when you have a Shelby Mustang sitting in the garage. You aren't going to be turning any heads, or winning any races off the line, but you tell yourself you will feel good about it, even when you have to siphon french fry oil out of a vat and you end up with a mouthful.

Caveat Emperor
08-29-2007, 07:55 AM
he's a hustler, makes things happen on the basepaths.

This season he's gotten caught stealing nearly as many times as he's successfully stolen a base.

By "things" I would say, "Outs."

GAC
08-29-2007, 08:00 AM
Because players like him get "labelled" in the minors as never going to be "every day players". And that can be a drag on a player as far as ever getting a serious look-see and/or valid shot at the ML level.

No, he probably isn't the calibre of athlete that could evolve into an everyday player. But players of his type do have worth on the bench, and he could very well become a super-sub (so to speak).

I'd rather have this kid on my bench then some of the dregs we have seen. That's why I'm not too upset over players recently acquired like Ellison and Cantu. Low risk acquistions as bench support.

nate
08-29-2007, 08:06 AM
I think NoHo will be a Freel replacement. Not a bad guy to have on your bench.

Always Red
08-29-2007, 08:16 AM
I like Norris; he's a good fill in guy, a great guy to have on the bench. And he's a great story, too. It's easy for me to root for a guy like Norris Hopper.

Good bunter (!) bad on the basepaths (!) What I haven't figured out yet is if Norris keeps bunting because no one has figured out how to defense it, or if he bunts that much because he can't hit. Either way, it's working. And he was 6-9 last night, a soft 6-9, but still, it's better than the numbers that...I don;t know....say.....Jason Ellison put up last night.

What I dislike, as many others here do, is when folks look at his batting average, and nothing else, and decide he needs to be a starter.

Kc61
08-29-2007, 08:35 AM
I guess I like Hopper more than most posters. I think he should start against all lefties.

This year, against lefties, his BA is .359 and his OBP is .385. He is an effective table setter, particularly against left handed pitching. True, he doesn't walk that much or his OBP would be .400 plus against lefties. But it's still pretty good, and he adds speed as well.

One area of weakness for the Reds is relatively high OBP guys to get on base for the sluggers. Hopper is one of the few who fills this role adequately.

When righties start against the Reds, Hopper should be on the bench. But as the time is currently configured, he starts against lefties.

camisadelgolf
08-29-2007, 08:41 AM
I think it's because his movies stink. http://forums.musicplayer.com/images/graemlins/default/rimshot.gif

redsmetz
08-29-2007, 09:02 AM
I like Norris Hopper quite a bit - as a bench player. I think, in fact, he would be a very valuable bench player.
Unfortunately, this team has shown recently to overvalue bench players, and attempt to turn them into every day players. They they go from being valuable bench players to mediocre starting players. Unfortunately, I am seeing a similar trend at this point with Hopper.

I know virtually everyone's saying the same thing. I've said for weeks now I like our bench if it has Hopper on it, if it has Keppinger on it. And next year, I'm fine with having Scott Hatteberg on it.

The real beef, as so many have said, is with Marty and his inordinate zeal for Norris Hopper. It might have been yesterday when Hopper got on base (maybe his bunt hit) and Marty and Thom raved about "how do you keep this guy out of the line-up?". Well, Marty & Thom, I can tell you three reasons in the coming year: Adam Dunn, Josh Hamilton and Ken Griffey Jr. Ultimately this club will be the lesser without Adam Dunn. And the only way Dunn shouldn't be here next year is if we reap a huge bonanza back for him.

So ultimately it's not a dislike for NH, but rather a dislike for Marty having a significant case of the goo for him.

redsmetz
08-29-2007, 09:09 AM
One added thing and I think it bolsters the argument for continuing to have Hopper on our bench, I think we'll see a different approach from Pete Mackanin viz our bench. He seems to have a philosophy that your bench needs to get some occasional starts to stay sharp. Now that will cause some howling in Redszoneville, but I think in a long season, that will help the club.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 09:21 AM
Having value that is completely tied to batting average is not a good thing. Takes a 320+ batting average just to get an acceptable level(not a good one) of OPS.

BRM
08-29-2007, 09:28 AM
flyer had this post in the game thread last night concerning Hopper. I thought it was spot on.



BP did an article on Alex Sanchez a few years back on how you can hit over .300 and have it be an empty batting average.

The recipes was
1)abundance of infield hits (he was a proficient bunter), runners never advance more than one base.
2) no power, ISOP was well under .100
3) few walks
4) very inefficient base stealer

Hopper is almost a dead match for Sanchez


I do think Hopper has value to the Reds as a bench player/spot starter next year.

Always Red
08-29-2007, 09:51 AM
One added thing and I think it bolsters the argument for continuing to have Hopper on our bench, I think we'll see a different approach from Pete Mackanin viz our bench. He seems to have a philosophy that your bench needs to get some occasional starts to stay sharp. Now that will cause some howling in Redszoneville, but I think in a long season, that will help the club.

I have no problem with that at all.

I didn't really mind Hopper playing either; he's earned that, at least against LH pitching.

The only beef I had about last night was Ellison playing. There's no reason to start him instead of Hammy, when you are finally back in the race, after an off day. Fatigue is not an issue; Hamilton has only been back for a week or so.

Who gives your team a better chance to win, Jason Ellison or Josh Hamilton?

MrCinatit
08-29-2007, 09:58 AM
I know virtually everyone's saying the same thing. I've said for weeks now I like our bench if it has Hopper on it, if it has Keppinger on it. And next year, I'm fine with having Scott Hatteberg on it.

The real beef, as so many have said, is with Marty and his inordinate zeal for Norris Hopper. It might have been yesterday when Hopper got on base (maybe his bunt hit) and Marty and Thom raved about "how do you keep this guy out of the line-up?". Well, Marty & Thom, I can tell you three reasons in the coming year: Adam Dunn, Josh Hamilton and Ken Griffey Jr. Ultimately this club will be the lesser without Adam Dunn. And the only way Dunn shouldn't be here next year is if we reap a huge bonanza back for him.

So ultimately it's not a dislike for NH, but rather a dislike for Marty having a significant case of the goo for him.

Yes, it was last night when he said that.
I literally cringed.

37red
08-29-2007, 10:01 AM
Point taken that he isn't a starting super star but a very good every day bench player. He just came up this year after spending a long time in the minors and feels he has to get extra hits and steal bases. In my opinion the FO and management are trying to push him into that position. They want to use him as an irritant and small ball player which is one of those positions we desperately need filling. The Reds have a hard time moving runners over a base and Hopper will find ways to do just that. His patience at the plate is an issue, agreed, but his over all performance is fine.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 11:02 AM
I like Norris Hopper quite a bit - as a bench player. I think, in fact, he would be a very valuable bench player.
Unfortunately, this team has shown recently to overvalue bench players, and attempt to turn them into every day players. They they go from being valuable bench players to mediocre starting players. Unfortunately, I am seeing a similar trend at this point with Hopper.

I have not seen any attempt to make Hopper an everyday player. He had to fill in a bit when Hamilton was hurt but I don't see anyone clamouring for him to unseat Hamilton, Dunn or Griffey.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 11:06 AM
BP did an article on Alex Sanchez a few years back on how you can hit over .300 and have it be an empty batting average.

The recipes was
1)abundance of infield hits (he was a proficient bunter), runners never advance more than one base.
2) no power, ISOP was well under .100
3) few walks
4) very inefficient base stealer

Hopper is almost a dead match for Sanchez

Yet Sanchez (and his power) was the reason the Reds didn't split last night.

BRM
08-29-2007, 11:07 AM
I have not seen any attempt to make Hopper an everyday player. He had to fill in a bit when Hamilton was hurt but I don't see anyone clamouring for him to unseat Hamilton, Dunn or Griffey.

Well, no one other than the Reds broadcast team.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 11:10 AM
Well, no one other than the Reds broadcast team.

I really don't think Marty wants 500 ABs a year for this guy. As was stated earlier in this thread, if an outfielder is traded Jay Bruce will fill the void, not Hopper.

I like Hopper and his play this year. I like him as a 4th outfielder.

RichRed
08-29-2007, 11:15 AM
Yet Sanchez (and his power) was the reason the Reds didn't split last night.

Freddy, not Alex, was the culprit last night.

Danny Serafini
08-29-2007, 11:16 AM
Yet Sanchez (and his power) was the reason the Reds didn't split last night.

That was Freddy Sanchez.

edabbs44
08-29-2007, 11:21 AM
There's no reason why Hopper can't play most games vs LHPs, especially since the whole starting OF is comprised of lefty hitters.

BRM
08-29-2007, 11:21 AM
I really don't think Marty wants 500 ABs a year for this guy. As was stated earlier in this thread, if an outfielder is traded Jay Bruce will fill the void, not Hopper.

I like Hopper and his play this year. I like him as a 4th outfielder.

I could have sworn Marty said this team was better with Norris in LF instead of Dunn.

I like Norris as a 4th outfielder as well.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 11:22 AM
That was Freddy Sanchez.

You're right. Thanks for the correction! :thumbup:

NC Reds
08-29-2007, 12:45 PM
Hopper is a pinch hitter and a spot starter. Anything more than that and his weaknesses will shine brightly. It won't be too long before teams shift for his bunts.

Marty jumped the shark a long time ago.

remdog
08-29-2007, 12:54 PM
Personally I like what Hopper brings to the club---some speed, some defense, some hustle. The key is to use it in the proper manner, from the bench.

As far as teams adjusting their defense to stop Hopper's bunts, that could actually benefit Norris. The type of hitter he is may actually find himself slapping ground balls past drawn in infielders or blooping the ball over their heads. It's not like he's gonna' start hitting home runs 'cause they take away the bunt. :lol:

Rem

KronoRed
08-29-2007, 01:16 PM
I could have sworn Marty said this team was better with Norris in LF instead of Dunn.


He said it more then once.

Norris is a fine backup, it's teams turning backups into starters that gets people worried

37red
08-29-2007, 01:24 PM
You know, thinking about it maybe Norris should field, Dunn hit and Norris run for him(most of the time)

37red
08-29-2007, 01:26 PM
Personally I like what Hopper brings to the club---some speed, some defense, some hustle. The key is to use it in the proper manner, from the bench.

As far as teams adjusting their defense to stop Hopper's bunts, that could actually benefit Norris. The type of hitter he is may actually find himself slapping ground balls past drawn in infielders or blooping the ball over their heads. It's not like he's gonna' start hitting home runs 'cause they take away the bunt.

Rem

I do think Rem laid it out well in his above post.

Chip R
08-29-2007, 01:32 PM
I know virtually everyone's saying the same thing. I've said for weeks now I like our bench if it has Hopper on it, if it has Keppinger on it. And next year, I'm fine with having Scott Hatteberg on it.


I agree. But the problem is that we have some players on the DL under contract for next year and beyond already filling those roles. People like Keppinger. I like him too but are they going to let Castro go so Keppinger can take his place? Not likely. I like scrappy guys who can come off the bench and bring a lot of hustle as much as the next guy but we already have Freel on the team. You really want two similar players coming off the bench?

pedro
08-29-2007, 01:37 PM
I agree. But the problem is that we have some players on the DL under contract for next year and beyond already filling those roles. People like Keppinger. I like him too but are they going to let Castro go so Keppinger can take his place? Not likely. I like scrappy guys who can come off the bench and bring a lot of hustle as much as the next guy but we already have Freel on the team. You really want two similar players coming off the bench?

You honestly believe they'll keep Castro over Keppinger?

How do you even get out of bed in the morning?

Chip R
08-29-2007, 01:41 PM
You honestly believe they'll keep Castro over Keppinger?

How do you even get out of bed in the morning?


Yep. I hope I'm wrong but unless he can't recover from his injury or decides to retire, he's going to be here next year.

Well, I usually turn off the alarm, then roll over to my left, put my feet on the floor and stand up. :)

pedro
08-29-2007, 01:44 PM
Yep. I hope I'm wrong but unless he can't recover from his injury or decides to retire, he's going to be here next year.

Well, I usually turn off the alarm, then roll over to my left, put my feet on the floor and stand up. :)

I'm pretty sure Castro is finished.

Chip R
08-29-2007, 01:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Castro is finished.


He's going to be tanned, rested and ready for Spring Training. Wayne's counting on it.

pedro
08-29-2007, 01:47 PM
He's going to be tanned, rested and ready for Spring Training. Wayne's counting on it.

bah humbug.

KronoRed
08-29-2007, 01:49 PM
Castro will be here but not at Keppingers expense

Raisor
08-29-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm pretty sure Castro is finished.

If WayneK is still the GM, and Castro is healthy, then he'll be on the club.

He and his sub 270 OBP will be sucking up PA's for at least the next 15 years, because we, apparently, deserve that for being Reds fans.

pedro
08-29-2007, 01:55 PM
Castro will be here but not at Keppingers expense

Abandon all hope ye who enter here....

Chip R
08-29-2007, 01:56 PM
If WayneK is still the GM, and Castro is healthy, then he'll be on the club.

See, pedro. Don't just take my word for it. Raisor has spoken.

Reds1
08-29-2007, 01:56 PM
I certainly don't hate him, but I think his lack of power when you have Dunn, Hamilton, and Griffey. I love him spot starting, pinch hitting, or coming in late for defense, but not having the power.

Raisor
08-29-2007, 01:57 PM
See, pedro. Don't just take my word for it. Raisor has spoken.

SO LET IT BE WRITTEN! SO LET IT BE DONE!!!!

pedro
08-29-2007, 01:57 PM
See, pedro. Don't just take my word for it. Raisor has spoken.

[na na na na na na na na na na]

i can't hear you!

[/na na na na na na na na na na]

Chip R
08-29-2007, 02:00 PM
SO LET IT BE WRITTEN! SO LET IT BE DONE!!!!


You owe me $1 for using my shtick.

Raisor
08-29-2007, 02:02 PM
You owe me $1 for using my shtick.

Talk to Puffy, he owes me for all the stuff he's ripped off me over the years.

Back on topic,

I heart me some Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer, but Chuck Norris never cries.

RichRed
08-29-2007, 04:23 PM
This seems as good a place as any for a random fact I noticed about Castro:

In 923 games and 2211 at-bats over the course of 13 seasons, Juan Castro has a career total of 5 stolen bases. Five. In 13 attempts. How could you not have more SBs than that just by accident?

Carry on.

oneupper
08-29-2007, 04:28 PM
Juan Castro has NEVER been hit by a pitch.

Back to your regular programming now.

wheels
08-29-2007, 04:35 PM
Juan Castro has NEVER been hit by a pitch.

Back to your regular programming now.

Seriously?

So bascially you're saying he can't even take a walk on accident.

Highlifeman21
08-29-2007, 05:52 PM
Yet Sanchez (and his power) was the reason the Reds didn't split last night.

Wrong Sanchez.

Freddy beat us last night, not Alex.

As for Norris Hopper, he's a 4th OF at best for any organization, ours included.

The problem is that he gets too many ABs, and I fear may in the future may take ABs from Dunn, Hamilton, Griffey and possibly Bruce. Hopper taking ABs from any of those guys is criminal.

Matt700wlw
08-29-2007, 06:31 PM
Castro will be here but not at Keppingers expense

It's why Keppinger wasn't here sooner. That is sad.

OnBaseMachine
08-29-2007, 06:53 PM
I would almost bet on it that Juan Castro will be a Red next year.

LoganBuck
08-29-2007, 09:30 PM
I would almost bet on it that Juan Castro will be a Red next year.

Manos de oro!

westofyou
08-30-2007, 09:37 PM
So, the two big topics of conversation today in the clubhouse were the ejection of Joba Chamberlain in the Yankees-Red Sox game and the Hopper/Griffey debate.

First, the Chamberlain debate was split pretty evenly between hitters and pitchers, but the best line went to Gary Majewski, "We fart, we get kicked out of the game."

The other was what would happen first -- a Norris Hopper home run (over the fence, not inside the park) or a Ken Griffey Jr. triple.

Hopper is the little brother of the clubhouse, constantly getting picked on, and today was really bad. Poor guy tried to defend himself, but, well, you know... David Weathers had the best line about Hopper after it was brought to his attention that Hopper had about 3,300 career at-bats in the minors with three home runs. "We're going to start calling him 'Haley's Comet'"http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

OnBaseMachine
08-30-2007, 09:45 PM
I was at the Reds-Padres three games series a couple of weeks ago and some kids in centerfield were holding up signs that read "Norris, do you like celery?" That's a little off-topic, but I just thought it was hilarious. You should have seen the puzzled looks on the security guards upon reading that sign. Norris caught a glance of it and busted out laughing before giving a thumbs up sign.

pahster
08-30-2007, 10:07 PM
I was at the Reds-Padres three games series a couple of weeks ago and some kids in centerfield were holding up signs that read "Norris, do you like celery?" That's a little off-topic, but I just thought it was hilarious. You should have seen the puzzled looks on the security guards upon reading that sign. Norris caught a glance of it and busted out laughing before giving a thumbs up sign.

...I admit, I don't get it either. :p: