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Kc61
08-29-2007, 11:48 AM
.471 OBP, .400 BA, 1K, 2BBs, 15 at bats. A homer and 4 RBIs.

Pretty good, in very small sample.

Not feeling a lot of love for Cantu on RedsZone so far. But he could be another good WK inexpensive pickup.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 11:50 AM
I agree completely with that. I think Cantu will end up being a good find for us, especially in our ballpark.

Joseph
08-29-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't think there is a lot of concern for his bat, its more his defense.

Wayne K has touted pitching and defense since day one of arriving and he's brought in Cantu who has frankly scared me at times at first. He just looks uncomfortable out there. He could grow into the position and allow a trade of Votto to help balance the left hand heavy line up though.

BRM
08-29-2007, 11:55 AM
Not feeling a lot of love for Cantu on RedsZone so far. But he could be another good WK inexpensive pickup.

Or he could be another bust. 15 at-bats isn't enough time to show love or disdain, really. I hope he grows into a decent fielding and hitting first baseman for the Reds though.

puca
08-29-2007, 11:59 AM
I don't think there is a lot of concern for his bat, its more his defense.

Wayne K has touted pitching and defense since day one of arriving and he's brought in Cantu who has frankly scared me at times at first. He just looks uncomfortable out there. He could grow into the position and allow a trade of Votto to help balance the left hand heavy line up though.

I for one have a lot of concern for his bat. Even at his best he makes outs way too frequently. I want better from a guy that will be getting significant playing time, especially at 1b.

He is Brandon Phillips 'lite' without the speed or glove. He looks way more valuable offensively than he actually is.

That's not to say I am against the aquisition, but I don't want him pulling down regular ABs.

BRM
08-29-2007, 12:04 PM
I for one have a lot of concern for his bat. Even at his best he makes outs way too frequently. I want better from a guy that will be getting significant playing time, especially at 1b.


That's a good point. Even in his "breakout" year in 2005, his OPS was only .808. That's not much for a 1B. He is young though so maybe he can push that up towards .850 or better with more playing time. It would likely require a major boost in slugging because he is definitely OBP-challenged.

M2
08-29-2007, 12:08 PM
If Cantu is used primarily as a platoon 1B, I've got no problem with him (provided he hits, which is not a given). I won't be happy if he becomes more than a fallback option at 2B or 3B. He's the type of player I'd prefer to see used too little than used too much.

Joseph
08-29-2007, 12:12 PM
Well, my concern is more about his glove than his bat, that should have been the phrasing used. :)

No he's not an elite hitter, TB wouldn't have given him away if he was, but his hitting [in my estimation] is superior to his fielding.

Benihana
08-29-2007, 12:14 PM
Or he could be another bust. 15 at-bats isn't enough time to show love or disdain, really. I hope he grows into a decent fielding and hitting first baseman for the Reds though.

I don't think it's really possible to be a big bust when you were acquired for virtually nothing. I am on the record as very much liking this pickup, in a similar very low risk high reward type fashion as Brandon Phillips and Josh Hamilton.

toledodan
08-29-2007, 12:33 PM
No he's not an elite hitter, TB wouldn't have given him away if he was, but his hitting [in my estimation] is superior to his fielding.



of course tampa gave up on josh hamilton so what do they know?:D:beerme::thumbup:

maybe they will give up on young and kazmier.:p:

Joseph
08-29-2007, 12:42 PM
of course tampa gave up on josh hamilton so what do they know?:D:beerme::thumbup:

maybe they will give up on young and kazmier.:p:

If they do, I hope Wayne is there to offer Jeff Keppinger [Brendan Harris Pt2] and scoop them both up. :)

Cyclone792
08-29-2007, 12:45 PM
He's the type of player I'd prefer to see used too little than used too much.

Boy that's a phrase that can't be said enough about any number of players the Reds have trotted out of the last half dozen plus seasons. Unfortunately, though, the opposite is what tends to happen more often than not.

BTW, that phrase fits my take on Jorge Cantu, as well.

IslandRed
08-29-2007, 01:00 PM
I'll be curious to see if Cantu evolves into a more patient hitter. The Devil Rays have always seemed to have an organizational culture of encouraging aggressive hacking. I don't know if they preach it or if it's just the type of hitter they pursue. The Reds have a more balanced profile of aggressiveness versus patience. Maybe if he sees that walks aren't sneered at in the dugout, he'll get more selective. He had a very good at-bat last night that ended in a walk. Of course, at 25, it's a question as to how much he can change.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 01:07 PM
WAY too small of a sample size to be making any judgements. He had better rake if he wants even the platoon part of a 1B job.

KronoRed
08-29-2007, 01:14 PM
As long as he doesn't see time at any other IF spot then 1st then go Cantu ;)

Raisor
08-29-2007, 01:56 PM
Doesn't "Cantu" sound like a great name for a Dr Strange villian?

Yes, I've got Geek-Cred.

Reds1
08-29-2007, 02:08 PM
Boy the last couple pick ups have put some pop on our bench well - I guess starters. Somethings got to give though. Hatte, EE, Dunn, Gonz, Hamilton, Cantu, and Kepp can't all start. I love Hatte, but I am mixed on if he should stay. Same with Dunn - I go in and out on what I think almost daily. for example last night. I didn't want Dunn in that situation in the 9th because he doesn't put in in play so much. Oh, forgot VOTTO. What to do.

cincrazy
08-29-2007, 02:16 PM
Personally, I'm waiting for a "cantu! CAN NOT!" argument to break out. Get it.... CanTU, as in can too? Ok, I'm sure most of you got it. And yes, that was an extremely lame joke. Hey, I'm just trying to keep things light after last night's debacle :).

Joseph
08-29-2007, 02:26 PM
Personally, I'm waiting for a "cantu! CAN NOT!" argument to break out. Get it.... CanTU, as in can too? Ok, I'm sure most of you got it. And yes, that was an extremely lame joke. Hey, I'm just trying to keep things light after last night's debacle :).

It's been used already :)

MartyFan
08-29-2007, 03:14 PM
I think when you add this to the entire scope od what the guy has done over the last few years it gives a pretty complete picture of what sort of player the Reds picked up in Cantu.

I think Special K outright stole Cantu from the D-Rays...same as he did Josh Hamilton...I would bet money that Cantu becomes an everyday player on this team and that either he or Votto are moved to LF or Votto is moved to a different team.

puca
08-29-2007, 03:40 PM
I think when you add this to the entire scope od what the guy has done over the last few years it gives a pretty complete picture of what sort of player the Reds picked up in Cantu.

I think Special K outright stole Cantu from the D-Rays...same as he did Josh Hamilton...I would bet money that Cantu becomes an everyday player on this team and that either he or Votto are moved to LF or Votto is moved to a different team.

I'm not sure what scope you are refering to.

He had a decent 2005 and a dismal 2006. If I recall correctly, his minor league numbers were never all that impressive. Even in his good year his OBP was only .311 and his OPS was only .808. That would be okay if he was a plus defensive middle infielder. That is not what I want out of a firstbaseman.

If it is possible to steal a bench player or platoon firstbaseman, then maybe I agree.

Rojo
08-29-2007, 03:44 PM
I could see Cantu becoming a kinda Wil Cordero kind of player -- middling power, ok BA, can play a few positions but not well.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 03:55 PM
I would bet money that Cantu becomes an everyday player on this team... if so that will most likely be a bad thing because his bat does not project well as a 1B or a LF. His bat might play well as a MIF type but it won't at a premium hitting position. Even in his "big" year(2005) his OPS was 808.

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 03:57 PM
It sure is nice to have his bat available on the bench. He's gotten some big hits for us and he came here with a reputation as a clutch hitter. As of April this year the only pop this team had on the bench was a delivery by the Coca-Cola truck...

Sea Ray
08-29-2007, 04:00 PM
... if so that will most likely be a bad thing because his bat does not project well as a 1B or a LF. His bat might play well as a MIF type but it won't at a premium hitting position. Even in his "big" year(2005) his OPS was 808.

I don't care what his OPS is, I'll take 117 RBIs in my lineup any day, although that season looks to be the exception rather than the rule.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 04:03 PM
I don't care what his OPS is, I'll take 117 RBIs in my lineup any day, although that season looks to be the exception rather than the rule.as long as you realize that RBIs are heavily team dependent and subject to a lot of noise.

Razor Shines
08-29-2007, 04:05 PM
I don't care what his OPS is, I'll take 117 RBIs in my lineup any day, although that season looks to be the exception rather than the rule.

My guess is that once teams in the NL realize that you don't have to throw him strikes his numbers will drop. I think he'll be pretty good the rest of this season but next year he will struggle to adjust because he swings at everything.

flyer85
08-29-2007, 04:08 PM
A lot of decision making is based on data that is full of noise and really doesn't tell you all that much.

puca
08-29-2007, 04:12 PM
I don't care what his OPS is, I'll take 117 RBIs in my lineup any day, although that season looks to be the exception rather than the rule.

If you are impressed by his 117 RBIs you should be equally disturbed by his 73 Runs scored that same season.

RichRed
08-29-2007, 04:17 PM
If Cantu is used primarily as a platoon 1B, I've got no problem with him (provided he hits, which is not a given). I won't be happy if he becomes more than a fallback option at 2B or 3B. He's the type of player I'd prefer to see used too little than used too much.

I agree on all of this. As for the platoon thing, he's actually a slightly better hitter vs. righties over the course of his short career. (He hit 22 of his 28 HRs in '05 against righties.) So why do I think the Reds will go by the "book" and only play him against lefties?

fearofpopvol1
08-29-2007, 11:18 PM
At worst, he's a RH bat off the bench with some pop. At best, he could be a useful platoon player.

I still like the pickup for what we gave up, small sample size or not.

Sea Ray
08-30-2007, 12:23 AM
If you are impressed by his 117 RBIs you should be equally disturbed by his 73 Runs scored that same season.

Nah, that doesn't bother me. That just tells me that after he got clutch hits to knock in runners already on base that the folks behind him were inept in knocking him in. I don't blame him for that.

SteelSD
08-30-2007, 12:50 AM
Nah, that doesn't bother me. That just tells me that after he got clutch hits to knock in runners already on base that the folks behind him were inept in knocking him in. I don't blame him for that.

Of course you do understand that a very high Out rate actually robs every other hitter in the lineup of opportunities and that dramatic RISP over-performance isn't a repeatable skill?

The players hitting behind Cantu weren't "inept in knocking him in". Cantu simply didn't produce enough opportunities to get himself knocked in. The guy produces an OBP of .311 and it's somehow someone else's problem? No. That's a Cantu issue and it begins and ends with making too darn many Outs.

sonny
08-30-2007, 02:46 AM
I still like him as a bench player.

Ron Madden
08-30-2007, 04:30 AM
A lot of decision making is based on data that is full of noise and really doesn't tell you all that much.

Aint that the truth.

Highlifeman21
08-30-2007, 08:45 AM
If Cantu is used primarily as a platoon 1B, I've got no problem with him (provided he hits, which is not a given). I won't be happy if he becomes more than a fallback option at 2B or 3B. He's the type of player I'd prefer to see used too little than used too much.

If Cantu turns out to be a younger version of Rich Aurillia, then I'm fine with that. OPS North of .800, and platooning/giving a regular a day off is acceptable. Cantu in the lineup 3+ days a week might render defensive liability issues. I honestly don't think his bat can offset his lack of range and lack of glove.

Sea Ray
08-30-2007, 11:33 AM
The players hitting behind Cantu weren't "inept in knocking him in". Cantu simply didn't produce enough opportunities to get himself knocked in. The guy produces an OBP of .311 and it's somehow someone else's problem? No. That's a Cantu issue and it begins and ends with making too darn many Outs.


You're right, his low OBP is not a strong suit on his resume. Very, very few players have sparkling stats across the board. 2005 may very well be an aberration for him but nobody outside of Jr in the Reds' lineup has ever had a year in which they knocked in 117. A knack for driving in runners is a skill I welcome on the 25 man roster.

KronoRed
08-30-2007, 11:54 AM
If Cantu turns out to be a younger version of Rich Aurillia, then I'm fine with that. OPS North of .800, and platooning/giving a regular a day off is acceptable. Cantu in the lineup 3+ days a week might render defensive liability issues. I honestly don't think his bat can offset his lack of range and lack of glove.

Far be it for me to say anything nice about Rich, but he's a gold glover compared to what Cantu would do at 2b/SS/3b.