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View Full Version : Who Do You Want to Stay/Go?



camisadelgolf
09-04-2007, 07:17 AM
Discuss.

puca
09-04-2007, 08:38 AM
Both will be gone by the end of 2008. It's not a matter of want or not want. It's pretty much a given.

redsmetz
09-04-2007, 08:42 AM
I think Griffey will be gone - it makes sense, his contract (save the option) will be over. It's highly doubtful that the Reds exercise the option. I think Jay Bruce starts at AAA and Griffey gets moved mid-season (although there's an outside chance, IMO, that he could be moved in the off-season). Personally, I'd like to see Dunn resigned to about a four year deal.

RedlegJake
09-04-2007, 09:05 AM
Junior will be gone, simply a matter of contract verses declining ability. I'd like to see him in the AL where he could DH and extend his career. As a hitter he still has some good years left.

I'd like to see Dunn re-signed but is that realistic? Dollarwise I mean. 4 years at 50 million I could go for but more than that and I'd rather he was traded.

TOBTTReds
09-04-2007, 09:58 AM
Both will be gone by the end of 2008. It's not a matter of want or not want. It's pretty much a given.

No it is. That is the question. I would like to see Griffey out so we can move on with Jay Bruce around June of 08.

puca
09-04-2007, 10:44 AM
No it is. That is the question. I would like to see Griffey out so we can move on with Jay Bruce around June of 08.

The question was by the end of 2008.

Neither side will be pushing for Griffey's option to be picked up for 2009. It won't and he will be gone.

At this point Dunn is biding his time until free agency. Because of his age he will probably want (and get) a 6-7 year contract. Even if he isn't 'about the money', I have a hard time understanding why he would want to remain with the Reds. They really haven't done a whole lot to make him want to stay and aren't exactly pereniial contenders. He will not be back in 2009 either.

Joseph
09-04-2007, 11:00 AM
Griffey MIGHT be dealt in the off season. It would suit him more than during the middle of the season I'd suspect.

MartyFan
09-04-2007, 11:07 AM
I could see Junior gone by opening day of next year...Dunn, I like his bat, his D is horrible and that bothers me but there is a reason why teams put horrible defenders in LF in the first place, right?

I don't think Dunn will bring the sort of return to trade him in the off season.. So I think he will be here and I would imagine he is signed to a LTC unless we get a reasonable return offer for him...but that wouldn't happen until after next April.

cumberlandreds
09-04-2007, 11:38 AM
IMO, the best scenario would be to trade Griffey by the trading deadline next season. Sign Dunn LTC. Bring up Bruce by mid season and then you would have an outfield of Dunn Hamilton and Bruce for about the next ten seasons. Will it happen? I doubt it because this is the Reds and things never work as planned.

TOBTTReds
09-04-2007, 12:13 PM
The question was by the end of 2008.



Correct. But the question was, "Before the end of 2008, who would you like to see traded?"

In other words, if you were GM, what would you like to see happen. Just about everyone was saying what the Reds will do, but what would you like them to do?

It's like asking, "would you like having a million dollars?" Then responding with, "it won't happen." It doesn't answer the question.

Way to go Cumberlands. You got the idea.

dougdirt
09-04-2007, 12:33 PM
Theoretically, I don't want either of them gone. Both are producers and bring things to this team that is hard to replace. That said, both are likely gone by Opening day 2009 at the latest. I could certainly see Griffey traded in the offseason and I would be very surprised if the Reds didn't trade Adam Dunn before the season is over in 2008.

KronoRed
09-04-2007, 01:09 PM
Deal JR next year after he hits number 600, then let Bruce have the job full time (that means not sharing time with Hopper!) ;)

Sign Dunn to a long term deal, if we can't "afford" Dunn then we need to get out of the NL and head down to the International League

registerthis
09-04-2007, 01:17 PM
Sign Dunn to a long term deal, if we can't "afford" Dunn then we need to get out of the NL and head down to the International League

No kidding. We're not a feeder team.

At least, we shouldn't be.

camisadelgolf
09-04-2007, 01:22 PM
When it comes to Griffey, if he hits homerun #600 before the end of the season, I could see him traded in the off-season. If he doesn't, I could see him traded before the deadline next year. I like the idea of trading him whenever possible, though. If I can't find anything worth trading for, then I'd pay his buyout and attempt to negotiate an extension at a bargain price (as long as he's interested, which I should obviously have doubts about). Otherwise, maybe he'd be a type-A or type-B free agent, so I could offer arbitration and get the draft pick compensation.

When it comes to Adam Dunn, I want him gone, gone, gone. It's nothing against him--overall, I think he's one of the best at his position. However, for a small-to-mid-market club like the Reds, I don't think he's worth the four-year, $60M contract or however much it would take to keep him.

If I could trade both Dunn and Griffey, I would free up more than $20M of payroll, and I could have a solid outfield of Josh Hamilton, Freel/Hopper/free agent, and Jay Bruce. If that money goes to pay for above average pitching, I'm in heaven.

Personally, I don't like the idea of spending $10M+ on a player unless it's a starting pitcher with a great history of success--and even then, I would want the contract to be as short-term as possible.

puca
09-04-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure why everyone assumes Dunn would be willing to sign a LTC contract to stay with the Reds.

If money and/or years is important to him, better offers are undoubtedly to be found on the open market.

If winning is important to him, better teams are to be found.

If environment is important to him, he is a long ways away from home and has not been shown a whole lot of love by the organization or fan base. His lounge chair was removed, his best friend traded, his work ethic and desire questioned at every turn. The fact that his parents won't even listen to the 'voice of the Reds' simply cannot be ignored.

They way I see it Dunn and Griffey are gone by 2009, it is just a matter of how much, if anything, the Reds can get for them.

pedro
09-04-2007, 01:34 PM
Griffey really should be traded this off season.

The Reds can't suffer through another year with this OF defense and Griffey is the guy that should get moved IMO.

puca
09-04-2007, 02:32 PM
Correct. But the question was, "Before the end of 2008, who would you like to see traded?"

In other words, if you were GM, what would you like to see happen. Just about everyone was saying what the Reds will do, but what would you like them to do?

It's like asking, "would you like having a million dollars?" Then responding with, "it won't happen." It doesn't answer the question.

Way to go Cumberlands. You got the idea.

I read it more like:

which would you like to see by noon tomorrow:

a.) The sun set
b.) The sun rise
c.) both
d.) neither

AtomicDumpling
09-04-2007, 02:33 PM
Both Dunn and Griffey should be kept as long as they are productive and healthy. Why ditch a player unless we have a replacement who is better?

I am tired of people whining about salaries. The Reds have plenty of money to pay Dunn and Griffey and sign free agent pitching (but there isn't any good free agent pitching available this winter anyway, which is a fact most people ignore when recommending we ditch Dunn to save his salary). The Reds have $10-20 million in expiring contracts & dead money coming off the books this year. If you want to save more money then ditch players that aren't earning their money -- like Freel, Stanton, Castro, Ross, Coffey etc. Or you could ditch Gonzalez since we have Keppinger as a cheaper, better hitting alternative.

It just doesn't make any logical sense to get rid of productive players like Griffey and Dunn just because you are too damn cheap to pay them.

The Reds made a profit of $17-22 million last year by various estimates. The value of the franchise also grew significantly. The Reds are rolling in cash. Castellini is rolling in cash. Money is no reason to ditch Dunn or Griffey. Money is not an excuse.

What kind of a fan so easily accepts the notion the Reds should cut good players to save money? Are we really that brainwashed by the ownership? We want to win don't we? So why make excuses for the ownership when they put out a squad that has no chance of winning?

If the Reds ditch quality players in order to save money when they are raking in tens of millions of dollars in profit then we should start a rebellion!

flyer85
09-04-2007, 02:41 PM
How about Pete and Wayne? :D

KronoRed
09-04-2007, 03:11 PM
How about Pete and Wayne? :D

I'm a fan.

NJReds
09-04-2007, 04:03 PM
Griffey really should be traded this off season.


I wonder if Tampa would take him to help mentor some of the young guys. He'd be 'home,' so I think he'd agree to go. He could DH. His run at 600 might draw some fans. The Reds would likely have to pick up some salary.

Think the D'rays would give up Baldelli? (pipe dream, but just a thought).

flyer85
09-04-2007, 04:08 PM
I can't see a Jr deal happening because you would have to think he would demand an extension or the team pick up his option.

flyer85
09-04-2007, 04:09 PM
Think the D'rays would give up Baldelli? (pipe dream, but just a thought).With his injury history and glut of OFs I would think the Rays would love to unload Baldelli. Their starting OF for 2008 looks like LF-Crawford, CF-Upton and RF-Young. I expect Baldelli to be traded.

fearofpopvol1
09-04-2007, 04:45 PM
I kind of have this suspicion that Dunn's option will be picked up, but that he will be shipped out at some point next year for prospects and Votto will take over in LF. Same with Griffey being shipped out (after 600) for prospects and Bruce taking over.

NJReds
09-04-2007, 05:22 PM
With his injury history and glut of OFs I would think the Rays would love to unload Baldelli. Their starting OF for 2008 looks like LF-Crawford, CF-Upton and RF-Young. I expect Baldelli to be traded.

Just saw a note that mentioned Baldelli considering retirement due to his injuries. That's too bad. The kid had talent.

RedsManRick
09-04-2007, 05:35 PM
Pick up Dunn's option and don't trade either of them. If you can't sign Dunn to a 4 year extension trade him in July. Starting talking about Junior now, but don't deal him until 600. I'm thinking he'd be more likely to waive his 10/5 going to a team that's in the hunt next July anyways.

Bruce won't be hurt by a few hundred more PA in AAA.

GAC
09-04-2007, 05:45 PM
Pick up Dunn's option and don't trade either of them. If you can't sign Dunn to a 4 year extension trade him in July. Starting talking about Junior now, but don't deal him until 600. I'm thinking he'd be more likely to waive his 10/5 going to a team that's in the hunt next July anyways.

Bruce won't be hurt by a few hundred more PA in AAA.

I agree. Jr will be here the duration of the '08 season simply because of his contractual status/veto rights, and that there are very few teams that will (or can) take on the financial obligation. We'll pay him the 4 Mil buyout after next year and say "Thank You". I see him prolonging his career a few more years as a DH in the AL. At least that would be the logical thing to do if I was Jr and wanted to play longer.

But I have no problem at all with Jr manning RF next year (his last), while Bruce gets more experience at AAA. He'll be up here soon enough.

Now I am not advocating this; but if this FO really wanted to force Jr's hand then they could bring Bruce to ST, and if he performs admirably, give him the RF job and make Jr that "super-sub" for the last year of his contract. Now that may pee Jr off, and some may think that it's not showig him the respect he deserves for such an illustrious HOF career, but it is an option if they have decided he will be gone after next season and they need to see if Bruce is that viable replacement.

buckeyenut
09-06-2007, 11:43 AM
I would run with Votto at 1B, Dunn in LF, Bruce in CF and Hamilton in RF starting in spring training and for the next 5 years. As sad as it is, I want to see Jr traded this offseason whether or not he hits 600. In fact, I think his value to other teams is higher if he hasn't hit 600 yet.

I would renegotiate with Dunn this offseason, offering him a 5 yr 15M per contract starting next season and tearing up his old contract.

For 2008, I would keep hatteburg as my bat off the bench and vet influence. I would run with Hopper and Freel as my backup OFs, Cantu, Freel, and Keppinger as my backup IFers. I would start Valentin at C and use Ross as a platoon/backup.

I would focus my offseason $$ and trade thoughts on pitching. I think the defense will get better as the kids get more time and gonzo bounces back. I would give consideration to dealing Freel, Hopper, Gonzo, Keppinger, Hatteburg, Junior, Weather and adjust the plan if I got a deal I liked.

KronoRed
09-06-2007, 02:30 PM
I would run with Votto at 1B, Dunn in LF, Bruce in CF and Hamilton in RF starting in spring training and for the next 5 years. As sad as it is, I want to see Jr traded this offseason whether or not he hits 600. In fact, I think his value to other teams is higher if he hasn't hit 600 yet.


Risky but I tend to agree with you, deal him before 600 if it sweetens the return

RedLegSuperStar
09-06-2007, 02:47 PM
IMO I don't see Dunn in a Reds uniform for 2008.. Yes it's a 3 million dollar raise.. but you could replace him with Bruce or Hamilton. Purhaps you move Votto there in Spring Training so that Cantu and Hatteberg can platoon at 1st. The money has got to be spent on pitching. The Reds rotation has 2 starters.. Belisle, Dumatrait, Shearn, and Ramirez are spot starters and long relievers.. if that. Shearn and Livingston have been the only ones to show any signs of consistency and Livingston could be done for 2008. Back to Dunn.. and is not that Dunn isn't worth 13 Million.. he's just not worth 13 Million to the Reds in my opinion.

Now unless Bob Castellini wants to open up the wallet I think the Reds take the Draft Picks and and build around Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, and Hamilton.

camisadelgolf
09-06-2007, 02:56 PM
Dunn's contract stipulates that if his option is picked up, he has a full no-trade clause until the middle of June, at which point it becomes a partial no-trade clause.

Ron Madden
09-06-2007, 03:08 PM
IMO I don't see Dunn in a Reds uniform for 2008.. Yes it's a 3 million dollar raise.. but you could replace him with Bruce or Hamilton. Purhaps you move Votto there in Spring Training so that Cantu and Hatteberg can platoon at 1st. The money has got to be spent on pitching. The Reds rotation has 2 starters.. Belisle, Dumatrait, Shearn, and Ramirez are spot starters and long relievers.. if that. Shearn and Livingston have been the only ones to show any signs of consistency and Livingston could be done for 2008. Back to Dunn.. and is not that Dunn isn't worth 13 Million.. he's just not worth 13 Million to the Reds in my opinion.

Now unless Bob Castellini wants to open up the wallet I think the Reds take the Draft Picks and and build around Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, and Hamilton.

The Reds can afford to pay Adam Dunn. I'm tired of that excuse.

May as well go ahead and trade Votto, Hamilton and Phillips too.

I quess the Reds will never be able to afford productive players.

AtomicDumpling
09-06-2007, 03:13 PM
IMO I don't see Dunn in a Reds uniform for 2008.. Yes it's a 3 million dollar raise.. but you could replace him with Bruce or Hamilton. Purhaps you move Votto there in Spring Training so that Cantu and Hatteberg can platoon at 1st. The money has got to be spent on pitching. The Reds rotation has 2 starters.. Belisle, Dumatrait, Shearn, and Ramirez are spot starters and long relievers.. if that. Shearn and Livingston have been the only ones to show any signs of consistency and Livingston could be done for 2008. Back to Dunn.. and is not that Dunn isn't worth 13 Million.. he's just not worth 13 Million to the Reds in my opinion.

Now unless Bob Castellini wants to open up the wallet I think the Reds take the Draft Picks and and build around Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, and Hamilton.

We have already explained that saving money is not a good reason to ditch Dunn. The Reds have about $20 million in expiring contracts and dead money coming off the books this winter (some of which will go to raises for current players). Combine that with the fact the Reds made a profit of $17-22 million last year and you can clearly see the Reds have plenty of money to spend without having to ditch good players.

If you want to save money then ditch unproductive players like Castro, Stanton, Coffey, Freel and Ross. You don't improve your team by ditching good players.

It has also been shown that there are not any good starting pitchers available as free agents this year. None. So forget about spending money to improve the starting pitching. It isn't going to happen.

There are a few good relievers out there. They will be very expensive and will probably cost more than they are worth, but the Reds will most likely get a couple of them anyway. You have to spend all that money on something to improve this team even a little bit. The Reds are not going to solve their problems via free agency.

There is no guarantee we will get any draft picks for Dunn if he walks. We would have to offer him arbitration, and if he accepts we could be forced to pay him $17-20 million for one season.

Even if we get draft picks for him, Krivsky has not shown any skill yet in selecting good players. His first two drafts have been extremely shaky if not downright awful based on early returns. I would rather not ditch our best hitter for a couple of long term "maybes" that might help us 5 years from now.

AtomicDumpling
09-06-2007, 03:26 PM
The Reds can afford to pay Adam Dunn. I'm tired of that excuse.

May as well go ahead and trade Votto, Hamilton and Phillips too.

I quess the Reds will never be able to afford productive players.

I think the Lindner administration was extremely effective in brainwashing Reds fans that the Reds are just too poor and pathetic to be able to put a quality team on the field. It just boggles my mind that most Cincinnati fans are so eager to accept this excuse.

The Reds are not the Devil Rays or the Expos folks.

When you factor in dead money paid to departed players and deferred money owed to Griffey the Reds payroll is about $80 million. Add in the $20+ million the Reds organization made in profit and you can clearly see the Reds could have a $100 million payroll and still be making a profit.

The Reds have plenty of money to spend -- they just aren't spending it.

They can get away with this because Carl Lindner and John Allen did such a great job of pleading poverty (even though he is a billionaire!).

I for one will not go along with the "strategy" of dumping good players to save money so we can spend it in a low-quality free agent market this winter.

Keep the good players and go get some good free agents. Stop making excuses!

redsmetz
09-06-2007, 06:09 PM
I think the Lindner administration was extremely effective in brainwashing Reds fans that the Reds are just too poor and pathetic to be able to put a quality team on the field. It just boggles my mind that most Cincinnati fans are so eager to accept this excuse.

The Reds are not the Devil Rays or the Expos folks.

When you factor in dead money paid to departed players and deferred money owed to Griffey the Reds payroll is about $80 million. Add in the $20+ million the Reds organization made in profit and you can clearly see the Reds could have a $100 million payroll and still be making a profit.

The Reds have plenty of money to spend -- they just aren't spending it.

They can get away with this because Carl Lindner and John Allen did such a great job of pleading poverty (even though he is a billionaire!).

I for one will not go along with the "strategy" of dumping good players to save money so we can spend it in a low-quality free agent market this winter.

Keep the good players and go get some good free agents. Stop making excuses!

I think you're right about Lindner, but I think Allen gets a bad rap for the work he had to do while under Lindner's employ. I whole-heartedly agree with you that the Reds have money to spend and that Adam Dunn's contract next year is affordable (and competitive) and that they can afford a longer deal with him near market.

They should be able to spend on pitching as well. You lay out a very good outline of the payroll size they could absorb next year. NOw I don't expect them to pick up Jr.'s option in 2009, but they've got lots of room to work. I just don't agree that Allen is the poor mouthing guy other than having to toe that line while Lindner ran the ship. I think you see Allen much more in the background under Castellini, being the financial guy (a position he's good at, I think) and letting Krivsky and Castellini drive the other matters.

Aronchis
09-06-2007, 11:37 PM
I think the Lindner administration was extremely effective in brainwashing Reds fans that the Reds are just too poor and pathetic to be able to put a quality team on the field. It just boggles my mind that most Cincinnati fans are so eager to accept this excuse.

The Reds are not the Devil Rays or the Expos folks.

When you factor in dead money paid to departed players and deferred money owed to Griffey the Reds payroll is about $80 million. Add in the $20+ million the Reds organization made in profit and you can clearly see the Reds could have a $100 million payroll and still be making a profit.

The Reds have plenty of money to spend -- they just aren't spending it.

They can get away with this because Carl Lindner and John Allen did such a great job of pleading poverty (even though he is a billionaire!).

I for one will not go along with the "strategy" of dumping good players to save money so we can spend it in a low-quality free agent market this winter.

Keep the good players and go get some good free agents. Stop making excuses!


Nope. Watching overpaid FA's bust and the team continue to languish while better younger talent is shipped for peanuts isn't in the best interest.

Sorry sir, the Reds "don't have money to spend". It must come from somewhere.

camisadelgolf
09-07-2007, 05:48 PM
I think the Lindner administration was extremely effective in brainwashing Reds fans that the Reds are just too poor and pathetic to be able to put a quality team on the field. It just boggles my mind that most Cincinnati fans are so eager to accept this excuse.

The Reds are not the Devil Rays or the Expos folks.

When you factor in dead money paid to departed players and deferred money owed to Griffey the Reds payroll is about $80 million. Add in the $20+ million the Reds organization made in profit and you can clearly see the Reds could have a $100 million payroll and still be making a profit.

The Reds have plenty of money to spend -- they just aren't spending it.

They can get away with this because Carl Lindner and John Allen did such a great job of pleading poverty (even though he is a billionaire!).

I for one will not go along with the "strategy" of dumping good players to save money so we can spend it in a low-quality free agent market this winter.

Keep the good players and go get some good free agents. Stop making excuses!

How do you figure the Reds could have a $100M payroll and still be able to make profit?