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AmarilloRed
09-05-2007, 12:23 AM
I would like a thread dedicated to Joey Votto. He struck out tonight in his first major league at bat. Tough luck, Joey. You will get them next time

robmadden1
09-05-2007, 12:47 AM
Damn it I could have seen this I was at the game but my mom wanted to leave early.

uoduck1017
09-05-2007, 12:26 PM
He is making his first major league start today. Good luck, Joey! :beerme:

AmarilloRed
09-05-2007, 02:03 PM
Joey just threw the runner out at third. I missed the play, but I heard about it. He also just hit a solo HR in the second inning. Nice work, Joey!

OesterPoster
09-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Dead center too. I think he'll be finding the confines of GABP a bit more to his liking than anywhere else he's played. :D

CySeymour
09-05-2007, 02:09 PM
Was it on the first pitch?

texasdave
09-05-2007, 02:15 PM
I am willing to wager his feet barely touched the ground as he rounded the bases. Congrats, Joey V! That blast was Votto-matic.:beerme:

AmarilloRed
09-05-2007, 02:50 PM
He was disciplined enough to take the walk. The pitcher was very careful after his home run. As a result, he came around to score. I like what I have seen of Votto so far.

SidneySlicker
09-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Even though his feet barely touched the ground around the bases he still managed to touch all of the bases.

jfleur87
09-05-2007, 03:37 PM
i hope that isn't a knock on adam dunns inability to make correct contact with the bases

OesterPoster
09-05-2007, 03:46 PM
Another single for the Hit Machine.

The Cowboy
09-05-2007, 04:26 PM
I know its early but where would we be with Joey Votto in the lineup alot sooner than now? I had to ask..

OesterPoster
09-05-2007, 04:59 PM
Same place, unless he can pitch.

ChatterRed
09-05-2007, 05:30 PM
I know its early but where would we be with Joey Votto in the lineup alot sooner than now? I had to ask..

.....another in a long line of help coming from our minors.........Hopper, Keppinger, Cantu..........VOTTO............just think where we'd be if only brought up Jay Bruce! ;)

GoReds33
09-05-2007, 05:51 PM
.....another in a long line of help coming from our minors.........Hopper, Keppinger, Cantu..........VOTTO............just think where we'd be if only brought up Jay Bruce! ;)... and Cueto. We would be beastly. Go Reds!!!:)

durl
09-05-2007, 06:20 PM
This team has a lot of pieces in place to be a very good team in the next few years. Now if only the pitching problem could be solved.

I've never been one to advocate wild spending, but Castellini may just have to open the checkbook for another $15-20 million next year and bring in the pitching that this team needs to be division champs next year. It IS possible.

GoReds33
09-05-2007, 06:24 PM
This team has a lot of pieces in place to be a very good team in the next few years. Now if only the pitching problem could be solved.

I've never been one to advocate wild spending, but Castellini may just have to open the checkbook for another $15-20 million next year and bring in the pitching that this team needs to be division champs next year. It IS possible.Its always possible. Castillini knows that this team is good enough to win if he invests just a little more. He needs to back up his promise, and put in the money for Silva, and a reliever. I like Gagne, but I don't think he would come here.:cool:

Grande Donkey
09-05-2007, 07:44 PM
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/6304e758-9c59-478e-b6cb-1b827c86b9fc.jpg

gedred69
09-05-2007, 08:03 PM
I detest re-hashing, but simple truth is this guy shoulda' been here in August, to get him ready for next year. We kept hearing about his poor defense, but a 1st baseman as the swing man in a double play isn't common, in his 1st major league start no less. I have been a Krivsky fan, but the delay on bringing this guy up to season him for the future on a team going nowhere really confounds me. He is a hitter, period. No dis-respect to Hatteberg, but Votto is expected to be the future. Might as well start getting him prepared. September is Okay, but adding in August would have been better.

P.S.
Girardi would be a poor choice. No facial hair allowed, hair cuts for all. Sounds like High School in the 60's. What's does that have to do with a player's performance?

DTCromer
09-05-2007, 10:08 PM
I know its early but where would we be with Joey Votto in the lineup alot sooner than now? I had to ask..

5th place. Our problem was never hitting the ball. . . it was and always will be pitching and specifically bullpen help.

Situational hitting could improve as well.

GoReds33
09-05-2007, 10:20 PM
5th place. Our problem was never hitting the ball. . . it was and always will be pitching and specifically bullpen help.

Situational hitting could improve as well.If Votto could have come up earlier in the year, and performed well we could have traded Hatteberg, and Conine for some pitching. Just a thought.:)

DTCromer
09-05-2007, 11:13 PM
If Votto could have come up earlier in the year, and performed well we could have traded Hatteberg, and Conine for some pitching. Just a thought.:)

I understand that argument to a certain degree but it's not like we would've gotten a pitcher who would've made a difference on our team. Hatteberg and Conine aren't THAT good. We've seen Joey play exactly 1 game. . let's not carried away.

kaldaniels
09-05-2007, 11:31 PM
If Votto could have come up earlier in the year, and performed well we could have traded Hatteberg, and Conine for some pitching. Just a thought.:)

A statement like that is so easy to throw up on the board and act like it is gospel...give me a few names you really think Hatte/and or Conine would net in terms of pitching help.

Doro
09-06-2007, 01:19 AM
Hatt/Conine for pitching? please name a pitcher you could get in return for either or both of them thats worth anything.

kaldaniels
09-06-2007, 01:44 AM
Hatt/Conine for pitching? please name a pitcher you could get in return for either or both of them thats worth anything.

Exactly. :beerme:

ChatterRed
09-06-2007, 03:01 AM
Hatte and Conine would not have netted any quality pitching. Although, didn't Conine net Maloney? Or am I confused?

Anyway..........I said 3 weeks ago that Votto should come up in early August to give them 2 months to evaluate him to determine if he's the answer at 1st base next season.

I am a big Wayne Krivsky fan. I think his strong point is making quality trades and acquiring players that once had promise but maybe hit a snag. We've gotten Phillips and others that way. I also think there's something to be said in acquiring players that are 25-27 years old that are still producing in the minors. Alot of teams give up on these guys while looking to catch the phenom's that are ready at 21 to 23 years old. Meanwhile, you nab the Keppinger's and Coats (remains to be seen, but a .300 hitter in the minors).

What I don't like about Wayne is his reluctance, when this team is clearly out of it, to bring up the young guys and let them take their learning lumps. There is absolutely no reason Jay Bruce, Cueto, and Votto should have been up here 3-4 weeks ago. No reason at all. Even Maloney should be up here. These 4 guys are probably the cornerstone's of our minor leagues right now and our future.

ChatterRed
09-06-2007, 03:05 AM
This team has a lot of pieces in place to be a very good team in the next few years. Now if only the pitching problem could be solved.

I've never been one to advocate wild spending, but Castellini may just have to open the checkbook for another $15-20 million next year and bring in the pitching that this team needs to be division champs next year. It IS possible.

There isn't much quality starting pitching on the free agent market. Hopefully he can sign Silva. I would not mind Gagne at all. Add him to Weathers, Burton, Bray, etc......and we would have a quality bullpen.

I think Wayne is going to save a decent amount of money by replacing the veteran utility players with younger more productive players like Keppinger, etc. He'll get rid of Freel and Castro, and others.

Signing Silva would basically be replacing Milton with an average starter, for hopefully less money.

AmarilloRed
09-06-2007, 03:09 AM
i hope that isn't a knock on adam dunns inability to make correct contact with the bases

It was not. I respect what Adam Dunn does for the team. I am just glad that Joey seems to be a disciplined hitter.

jhiller21
09-06-2007, 05:17 AM
The pitch he crushed out was a low and inside breaking ball, the other single he hit was high... Let's see what he can do with some strike pitches.

Votto's gonna be a good hitter folks.

OesterPoster
09-06-2007, 10:21 AM
Hatte and Conine would not have netted any quality pitching. Although, didn't Conine net Maloney? Or am I confused?

Kyle Lohse was for Maloney.

Conine brought a couple of Mets bottom-barrel prospects.

mound_patrol
09-06-2007, 11:08 AM
.....another in a long line of help coming from our minors.........Hopper, Keppinger, Cantu..........VOTTO............just think where we'd be if only brought up Jay Bruce! ;)

I don't think Votto should be included with that class. Votto has more potential to be a major contributer than any of those guys. Kepp and Cantu can be good players. Hopper is hopper. But Votto could be a big time player for years to come.

AmarilloRed
09-06-2007, 02:31 PM
I would like to see Votto get all the AB against RHP at first base the rest of the year, and Cantu play against most leftys. I would also like to see Votto hit against some LHP to see how he handles LHP. I like Hatteberg, but I don't want him to start again the rest of the year. A Votto- Cantu platoon would be a good idea.

redsfanmia
09-06-2007, 07:36 PM
The Reds should actively shop Votto for pitching or a right handed bat this off season.

BucksandReds
09-06-2007, 08:34 PM
The Reds should actively shop Votto for pitching or a right handed bat this off season.

The reds should keep Votto to replace some of the power that they lose when they don't pick up Dunn's option. I don't think that Krivsky would if he had all of the say. To tell you the truth 30 HRs 85 RBI at 300,000 looks better to me than 40-45 HRs 95-100 RBI at 13,000,000. Especially when you would lose no defense at the position and can use that cash to sign a great reliever and a decent #3 starter. I play Votto in Left next year is Dunn doesn't sign a reasonable contract in the offseason. We can't afford 13,000,000 when we have Griffey, Hamilton a few other OK guys and Bruce on the way when we could fill Votto into the same position. Offense is not a problem. We need pitching now.

redsfanmia
09-06-2007, 08:48 PM
The reds should keep Votto to replace some of the power that they lose when they don't pick up Dunn's option. I don't think that Krivsky would if he had all of the say. To tell you the truth 30 HRs 85 RBI at 300,000 looks better to me than 40-45 HRs 95-100 RBI at 13,000,000. Especially when you would lose no defense at the position and can use that cash to sign a great reliever and a decent #3 starter. I play Votto in Left next year is Dunn doesn't sign a reasonable contract in the offseason. We can't afford 13,000,000 when we have Griffey, Hamilton a few other OK guys and Bruce on the way when we could fill Votto into the same position. Offense is not a problem. We need pitching now.

I agree, but if they pick up the option then deal Votto for pitching or a right handed bat.

Degenerate39
09-06-2007, 08:50 PM
The reds should keep Votto to replace some of the power that they lose when they don't pick up Dunn's option. I don't think that Krivsky would if he had all of the say. To tell you the truth 30 HRs 85 RBI at 300,000 looks better to me than 40-45 HRs 95-100 RBI at 13,000,000. Especially when you would lose no defense at the position and can use that cash to sign a great reliever and a decent #3 starter. I play Votto in Left next year is Dunn doesn't sign a reasonable contract in the offseason. We can't afford 13,000,000 when we have Griffey, Hamilton a few other OK guys and Bruce on the way when we could fill Votto into the same position. Offense is not a problem. We need pitching now.

Who said they weren't picking up Dunn's option?

AmarilloRed
09-07-2007, 01:35 AM
I have seen threads that suggested a Edwin and Votto trade to the Twins for Matt Garza. I would absolutely hate to trade Votto, but it would be something to consider if we could get a good starting pitcher by trading the both of them.

BucksandReds
09-07-2007, 05:39 PM
I have seen threads that suggested a Edwin and Votto trade to the Twins for Matt Garza. I would absolutely hate to trade Votto, but it would be something to consider if we could get a good starting pitcher by trading the both of them.

I'd trade EE but Votto is worth about 10 times to me right now what Dunn is worth. Dunn will make WAY TOO MUCH over the next 5-6 years for a team with our money situation to afford. Votto will make 500,000 or less for at least the 2008 and 2009 seasons and possibly the 2010 season as well. Votto is no sure thing but he'll probably give you 70-75% of what Dunn will and he costs about 3% as much. You don't just trade Votto. You dump Dunn for 2 end of the 1st rd picks if you have to. Ideally you trade Dunn for a decent young pitcher but you can't pay two outfielders 13 and 14 million (even though Jr gets alot later you still have to pay it.) That is what a mentally handicapped baboon would do in our market. You basially guarantee yourself to have no chance. Around 40% of your payroll in 2 highly imperfect players (one of them wa over the hill and the other a very good but also very flawed awful defensive, strikeout machine.) You must get rid of one of them in the offseason. Votto, Hamilton and one of Griffey or Dunn starting in the outfield next year is the only logical move. Votto can move to 1b when Hatteburg's play drops off, Cantu proves himself inable or when Bruce and Stubbs are both up. Votto would have to play at least 2 years in the O field because I would also drop whichever of Griffey and Dunn stays after next year.

BucksandReds
09-07-2007, 05:45 PM
On a further note I am convinced that Krivsky will drop Dunn and that is why he picked up Cantu. He wants a platoon of Cantu and Hatteburg at 1st and Votto Hamilton and Griffey in the Outfield. Griffey break 600 next year and you trade him midseason for pitching and bring up Bruce to start in right. You have to take chances to have a chance and this is the kind of chance that can pay off. If we are to win a WS it will be with young stars ala Florida Marlins and not an overpayed Yankees lineup. Votto and Bruce have the POTENTIAL (I understand the meaning of this word) to replace Griffey and DUnn's #s at SEVERAL % of the cost all the while freeing up money to be spent where it is DESPERATELY needed. On pitching. I know that the free agent pitching market is barren but maybe midseason next year we trade for a high priced guy that has 1 1/2 years on his contract. We just need to give ourselves a CHANCE to win. Our rotation and bullpen will not give us that next year.

redhawkfish
09-07-2007, 08:34 PM
Just for fun, after his 1st inning double tonight Votto's OPS is
2.433 :D:D

ChatterRed
09-07-2007, 09:18 PM
According to this board, after 3 games, Votto is the second coming of Alex Rodriguez.

I like what I'm seeing, but be realistic. Sheesh.

Grande Donkey
09-07-2007, 09:25 PM
According to this board, after 3 games, Votto is the second coming of Alex Rodriguez.

I like what I'm seeing, but be realistic. Sheesh.Anyone who thinks he is the next A-Rod is a tard. I'm thinking the next Willie McCovey:)

GoReds33
09-07-2007, 11:18 PM
This guy is good. I do think he earned his promotion, and will earn his playing time. I like what I have seen. I don't think he will be the next Prince Fielder. I do think he could be the next Shea Hillenbrand though. I have no problem with that.

thatcoolguy_22
09-08-2007, 12:21 AM
On a further note I am convinced that Krivsky will drop Dunn and that is why he picked up Cantu. He wants a platoon of Cantu and Hatteburg at 1st and Votto Hamilton and Griffey in the Outfield. Griffey break 600 next year and you trade him midseason for pitching and bring up Bruce to start in right. You have to take chances to have a chance and this is the kind of chance that can pay off. If we are to win a WS it will be with young stars ala Florida Marlins and not an overpayed Yankees lineup. Votto and Bruce have the POTENTIAL (I understand the meaning of this word) to replace Griffey and DUnn's #s at SEVERAL % of the cost all the while freeing up money to be spent where it is DESPERATELY needed. On pitching. I know that the free agent pitching market is barren but maybe midseason next year we trade for a high priced guy that has 1 1/2 years on his contract. We just need to give ourselves a CHANCE to win. Our rotation and bullpen will not give us that next year.

Why not pick up Dunn's option? Nevermind I got it. Then we can place Votto in LF and keep Hatteburg and Jorge Cantu at a premier offensive position that doesn't need the defense... :rolleyes: great one

If anything after the temporary no trade clause expires in Dunn's contract we could see his and/or Griffey moved for pitching and prospects allowing Hamilton in left Bruce in right and freel/hopper in center. But to simply drop dunn would be the most idiotic move that Krivsky has ever made. And this is the guy who signed Stanton to a 2 year contract with a club option for 3...

thatcoolguy_22
09-08-2007, 12:24 AM
and speaking of potential I know everyone on this board is high on Joey V at the moment but now is when you trade young prospects not named Jay F'ing Bruce. Joey V and EE for Matt Garza would never fly for the twins btw. It would take a Cueto and EE to make that one work, if not more...

AmarilloRed
09-08-2007, 01:47 AM
Joey has been very impressive so far, and I am glad to see the Reds seem to be getting him plenty of playing time. I would hope he will be the starting first baseman for the Reds starting next year.

thatcoolguy_22
09-08-2007, 02:07 AM
Joey has been very impressive so far, and I am glad to see the Reds seem to be getting him plenty of playing time. I would hope he will be the starting first baseman for the Reds starting next year.

As do I but I do NOT want him in LF and Will Ferrel's twin brother off the squad. Hopefully we can find a taker for Hatteburg. I mean he has his own chapter in the book "Moneyball" for christ's sake! :D
that has to be worth 2 golden tickets to willie wonka's factory in itself...

BLEEDS
09-08-2007, 10:25 AM
you can't pay two outfielders 13 and 14 million (even though Jr gets alot later you still have to pay it.) That is what a mentally handicapped baboon would do in our market. You basially guarantee yourself to have no chance. Around 40% of your payroll in 2 highly imperfect players (one of them wa over the hill and the other a very good but also very flawed awful defensive, strikeout machine.) You must get rid of one of them in the offseason.

This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$). We paid for them this year - $2.5M less.

You CAN do that if you have 20 other guys making 300-500K.
You can play Dunn, Griffey, and Alex Gonzalez to be your "vets" next year, and the only starting positional players making over $1M. EE, BP - although arbitration eligible, Hamilton, Votto, all of our pitchers not named Harang, Arroyo or Weathers, all make less than $1M per year.

This years FA crop is a total wasteland. You play for next year, and trade Griffey late in the year - because you are NOT picking up his 2009 option at $16.5M - you replace him with Jay Bruce and go after a Front-Line SP in the 2009 FA pool.

What you DON'T want to do is pay Ryan Freel $2.5M to sit on the DL all year or flop around the OF and hit .250.

Votto is going to play 1B. By all accounts, he makes Adam Dunn look like a sober white guy in LF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

AmarilloRed
09-08-2007, 04:07 PM
You have such a way with words BLEEDS. I do agree that we can afford to pay Dunn and Griffey next year, and have Bruce take Griffey's place in RF in 2009. I also think Keppinger will take Freel's pace as Super-Sub, but Freel can still be a reserve outfielder. He may simply have had a bad year this year. Votto should be our future first baseman. I really hope he is not in left field.

AmarilloRed
09-08-2007, 11:04 PM
Votto went 1 for 3 tonight, which included a 3 run HR. Unfortunately that was the extent of our scoring tonight, so we lost the game.

AmarilloRed
09-09-2007, 04:50 PM
2 for 4 today, including a double. He also struck out twice.

Degenerate39
09-09-2007, 05:07 PM
All Votto does is hit

BucksandReds
09-09-2007, 09:18 PM
Don't trade him! You need cheap guys with huge upside. Call me an idiot all you want but we'll lose with a team of fairly compensated veterans 99 times out of 100. To compete at our payroll you need as many overproducing young guys as possible. It would be better to see a team of 9 Joey Vottos fall on their face than the inevitable 9 Adam Dunn's. At least you would have a chance at spending some money fixing our real problems with the 9 Joey Vottos. If I see us hit above league average 1 more year while pitching at the very bottom of the league again I will cry. I understand in our park we'll never be at the top of the league but we are not even remotely competitive in the pitching department. Votto should stay unless someone offers you a legit young starter straight up. You'll say that pitchers have more value but Votto's realistic upside is All Star level of play. I'd rather dump Griffey or Dunn for anything resembling a 3 or 4starter so that in two years were not left with 1 pitching prospect and no Dunn, Griffey or Votto which would be a real possibility if we trade Votto. We need to release our overpaid veterans and let the youngsters get a chance. The old guys on the roster haven't gotten it done. Lets save some money in hitting (where we can affod to performance wise) and spend it on pitching which we can aquire via trade. I'd rather overpay on a 1-2 year contract for a decent starter acquired via trade then run out there with Griffey, Dunn and no pitching like we have the last several seasons.

DTCromer
09-10-2007, 10:49 AM
This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$). We paid for them this year - $2.5M less.

You CAN do that if you have 20 other guys making 300-500K.
You can play Dunn, Griffey, and Alex Gonzalez to be your "vets" next year, and the only starting positional players making over $1M. EE, BP - although arbitration eligible, Hamilton, Votto, all of our pitchers not named Harang, Arroyo or Weathers, all make less than $1M per year.

This years FA crop is a total wasteland. You play for next year, and trade Griffey late in the year - because you are NOT picking up his 2009 option at $16.5M - you replace him with Jay Bruce and go after a Front-Line SP in the 2009 FA pool.

What you DON'T want to do is pay Ryan Freel $2.5M to sit on the DL all year or flop around the OF and hit .250.

Votto is going to play 1B. By all accounts, he makes Adam Dunn look like a sober white guy in LF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


For an organization and city that has only seen good offensive players and a losing team for the last 10 years, I think spending that much money an an OF is incredulous.

BucksandReds
09-10-2007, 03:41 PM
This "we can't afford to X/Y/Z" argument is total Horse Poo.

You can pay two outfielders 13 and 6.5 M (what the Reds actually pay Griffey - about $11M if you count how much the deferred money actually counts in Today's $$).

Really so 2 million of it just drops off the face of the earth considering that in less than 1 and 1/2 years we have to pay 5.5% interest on every nickel of the deferred money? He's making 13 million total and 5.5% interest on 6.5 million of that. You realize that you do have to pay your debts right? Thats 26 Million+ in 2 outfielders on a team that will spend about 70-75 million total. At about 350,000 each we can run out Josh Hamilton 900+ OPS + base running ability + arm + fielding ability and Votto minor league OPS near 900 + huge upside + no worse on the bases or in the field than Dunn. I am not advocating Votto as a permanent outfielder. I am advocating him in the outfield untill Bruce is up (that may not be long.) Hatteburg is not a horrible option at 1B for 1/2 or even 1 more year. You trade or dump Dunn or Griffey this offseason. I'm not just worried about 08. I think that we can still contend in 08 without mortgaging our future (Votto.)

AmarilloRed
09-10-2007, 04:02 PM
I would not expect Votto in LF barring injury or a trade. I hear he needs lots of work as an outfielder.

Degenerate39
09-10-2007, 04:59 PM
I would not expect Votto in LF barring injury or a trade. I hear he needs lots of work as an outfielder.

The Reds don't need another outfielder.

AmarilloRed
09-11-2007, 01:44 AM
Dunn is only signed through this year, with an option for 2008, and Griffey through 2008 with an option for 2009. The starting outfield for 2009 could be Hamilton , Bruce, and :dunno: . . I hope Dunn is re-signed , but we could be in trouble in the OF if he doesn't.

BLEEDS
09-11-2007, 12:48 PM
Really so 2 million of it just drops off the face of the earth considering that in less than 1 and 1/2 years we have to pay 5.5% interest on every nickel of the deferred money? He's making 13 million total and 5.5% interest on 6.5 million of that.

I think you are confusing the details. The $13M I referenced was for Dunn's 2008 Option.

KGJ's contract leaves a bit to argument. But not as much.

FACT: KGJ's contract calls for 112.5M for 9 years (2000-2008), an average of $12.5M per year, and a $16.5M option for 2009 with a $4M buyout.

FACT: KGJ gets PAID $6.0M in salary these days (was $7M in 2000, $6M from 2001-2008).

FACT: KGJ gets $57.5M in DEFERRED money, starting in 2009 -payable over 16 years. That's roughly $3.6M per year.

DEBATEABLE: Interest, "Present Value", Against Luxury Tax

-Most say the interest doesn't start until 2009. I've seen it referenced by Reds as 4%.
-At the time (2000) the Present Value of the deal was estimated at $9.2/9.3M
-Some Sources say the Reds estimate it at $11.3M for Payroll Purposes
-Jr's Agent, Brian Goldberg, says the Reds estimate it at $3-$3.5M for the Deferred portion - based upon the MLB , this was in 2003.


SO, he's not "Making $13M total, with 5.5% Interest on a portion of it". He's making $6.0M per year, and the Reds account for $3-$3.5M per year for "put aside" money to account for the Deferred payments. What that means is they "PAY" ~$9.5M so that in 2009-2024 and beyond they don't "PAY" anything - other than maybe the $4M in 2009 Payroll for his buy-out.

Either way, it's been pretty good for the Reds, even if you counted it at $11M per year for 10 years. Sure, he's about done now, but $11M a year for KGJ is a virtual bargain compared to other contracts.

SOOOooo, back to the Original point, you CAN afford to pay an Adam Dunn at market value, especially when you consider he's 27 and everyone else on the team - outside of two pitchers and a SS - make less than $5M, and 90% of those people make less than .

In fact, Harang and Arroyo's 2008 salaries are less than $10M, only kicking up over $10M in 2009 - when KGJ is due to come off the books (coincidence? I think not).

This team isn't as Payroll-Strapped as you think. They also turn a profit, and guys like Castellini know, with as Loyal as the Reds fans are, you start WINNING and they will put more butts in more seats - and drink more beer, and eat more popcorn, etc... - they did it with KGJ, he MORE than paid for himself. You can spend more money on payroll and - GASP - MAKE MORE MONEY as a result, if you win.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

AmarilloRed
09-11-2007, 02:03 PM
All this about Griffey and Dunn is very interesting, but is not really relevant to this thread unless Griffey or Dunn is traded and Joey Votto has to move to the outfield.

AmarilloRed
09-13-2007, 03:19 PM
3 for 4 today with a 2 RBI double today. He is looking very impressive in the month of September.

jnwohio
09-14-2007, 12:14 AM
All this about Griffey and Dunn is very interesting, but is not really relevant to this thread unless Griffey or Dunn is traded and Joey Votto has to move to the outfield.


Yes but....

The finances play a part in whether somebody else gets traded or their option declined which then may impact on which position Joey plays in the future. He looks to be a compotent 1st baseman; but could he become the 2nd coming of Adam Dunn (good and bad) if he gets shuffled off to left?


One more bit on the money stuff. At least during the Lindner regime, we were told that the Reds annually budgeted for the total amount of the Griffey Jr salary including the deferred. Supposedly enough was being set aside into an anuity each year to pay off the deferred portion for that year as and when it became due. So if they did the math right; and managed the investments well, all the talk over the deferred load coming up relating to Griffey Jr should be a mute point.

AmarilloRed
09-14-2007, 02:02 AM
I frequently heard in the Minor League Report that Votto was worse in left field than Dunn. Hard to believe, but I think the Reds would be best served by playing Votto at first base.

RedDevil
09-14-2007, 07:31 AM
Votto has really impressed so far this year I'm looking forward to see what he can do with a whole season.

redsfanmia
09-14-2007, 06:45 PM
I frequently heard in the Minor League Report that Votto was worse in left field than Dunn. Hard to believe, but I think the Reds would be best served by playing Votto at first base.

I saw Votto play left a few times in the minors and he plays it much better than Dunn IMO.

BLEEDS
09-14-2007, 07:26 PM
I saw Votto play left a few times in the minors and he plays it much better than Dunn IMO.

I saw Joey Votto play 1B and hit in the Majors a few times. He does both MUCH better than Scott Hatteberg IMO, also at about 1/6th the cost...

Why not play Votto at 1B and keep Dunn in LF? Just a thought! :beerme:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfanmia
09-14-2007, 07:35 PM
I saw Joey Votto play 1B and hit in the Majors a few times. He does both MUCH better than Scott Hatteberg IMO, also at about 1/6th the cost...

Why not play Votto at 1B and keep Dunn in LF? Just a thought! :beerme:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I got no beef with that for next year, I was just saying that IMO he is on par with Dunn in left.

BLEEDS
09-14-2007, 08:18 PM
I got no beef with that for next year, I was just saying that IMO he is on par with Dunn in left.

I think I'm on par with Dunn in left. At the plate? Not so much.

Not saying you're making the argument, just took your quote and made it mine! ;)

Hatteberg, Conine, Griffey in 2009, these are the guys you part with. Votto, Jay Bruce, Adam Dunn at 27 - these are the guys you build around to make a young, powerful, relatively inexpensive (minus Dunn, who is a bargain at $13M per).

The current lineup we've been trotting out lately REALLY has me happy for the future:

Hamilton/Hopper
Kepp/Gonzo
Griff
BP
Dunn
EE
Votto
Catcher Du Jour

That lineup is between $25-$30M depending upon the Catcher/SS combo - from now until 2009.
In 2009 replace Junior with Bruce, and even if BP garners $4-5M in Arbitration, and Dunn at $15M per, and you're only looking at about $29M tops in 2009.

BP, Gonzo, Dunn, Harang, and Arroyo are the only guys at $4M+. That's a lot of young cheap talent out there. Leaves some room for going after a #3/#2 SP in 2008 FA.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

gedred69
09-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Fact is, all the cosmic garbage management gave us regarding Votto. "Oh, his defense sucks. He's not ready". What a load of----
This guy was ready to play in the Bigs out of Spring Training. I spend significant time every March at spring training, and he showed then he had nothing left to prove. I believe managment under-estimated where he was, signing Hatteberg---(no slouch there, agreed). This guy is the 1st baseman next year, period. He will be one of several cornerstones of what can be a great franchise if they can only find some pitching. Providing Hamilton can be healthy, + Phillips, Burton, Keppinger, Hopper, and Coutlangus, with Bruce, Dorn, Bailey, Cueto on the verge, and a whole bunch-Valaika, Maloney, Stubbs, Francisco, Turner, Waring, Bartles,-- all 1-3 years out, the future certainly looks encouraging.

AmarilloRed
09-15-2007, 01:59 AM
Most of us are convinced he should be the starting first baseman next year. Reds management still needs to be convinced. Hopefully Joey's performance in September will convince any doubters in Reds management.

AmarilloRed
09-21-2007, 02:44 AM
I had not done any updates for a while so here is one: He has now had 41 AB,5 runs, 15 hits, 4 doubles, 0 triples, 2HR, 9rbi, 25 total bases, 5 walks, 9 strikeouts, 1 stolen base, a .435 OBP, .610 slugging, and a .366 BA. What does all this mean? Hard to say. It is a very small sample size, but it is good to see him doing well so far in the month of September.

AmarilloRed
09-30-2007, 01:46 AM
Notes: Votto proves his skills in 2007
Rookie will compete for starting first base job next spring
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Joey Votto didn't need a solid September to prove he belonged with the Reds.

Votto already knew. That's not him being cocky or arrogant -- just confident. The 24-year-old never seemed intimidated by the Major Leagues, not even for a nanosecond.

"I thought I was ready for this for a while," said Votto, who was called up for the first time on Sept. 4. "I still think I'm ready for this. I will continue to get my work in every day and do what I know I can do. I'm not surprised in the least with what I'm doing, honestly. Whether or not I've succeeded beyond people's expectations, is their opinion. I don't think I'm playing anywhere near different than what I can play."

Votto entered the day batting .329 (25-for-76) with three home runs, 12 RBIs and a .526 slugging percentage in 22 games. He started his fifth game in left field on Saturday vs. the Cubs and has 15 starts at his natural position -- first base.

"Very well," interim manager Pete Mackanin said when asked for his evaluation of Votto's month. "When he first got here he said, 'I'm' just going to keep my mouth shut and ears open.' That's exactly what he's done. He's done his work. He's been very professional and I think he's made a very good impression -- at least on me. I think he's got a future."

One of the Reds' top position prospects, Votto batted .292 with 22 homers, 92 RBIs and 17 stolen bases this season at Triple-A Louisville.

"He's very confident in his ability and it shows," Mackanin said. "It's an important ingredient to succeed at this level. You have to believe you can succeed at this level and that you belong here. I think he's starting to feel he belongs here."

Votto felt that his first big league exposure helped him see a little bit of everything.

"I've faced some of the tougher pitchers in the league," said Votto, a Toronto native. "I played in atmospheres that aren't necessarily playoff or us leading the division atmospheres, but we played against people that every game mattered to them. To be in that atmosphere in the big leagues against the division leaders is important."

Votto's ascension has increased the likelihood that veteran first baseman Scott Hatteberg's $1.85 club option for 2008 won't be picked up. That should put Votto on the inside track for the everyday first base job next spring.

"I've come to expect to be a Major Leaguer," Votto said. "I don't think there's a guy in this room that thinks otherwise. I think I'm going to come to Spring Training next year expecting to earn a job.

Mark Sheldon seems to think Hatteberg will not have his option picked up, so it would seem the first baseman's job is Votto's to lose.

Screwball
09-30-2007, 05:20 PM
Fact is, all the cosmic garbage management gave us regarding Votto. "Oh, his defense sucks. He's not ready". What a load of----
This guy was ready to play in the Bigs out of Spring Training. I spend significant time every March at spring training, and he showed then he had nothing left to prove.


You simply just don't know that, yet try to pawn it off as Gospel-truth. Maybe Votto really was inadequate defensively. So inadequate, in fact, he had to stay down in AAA to work on his footwork, or being able to pick errant throws, etc. despite putting up solid numbers at the plate. Maybe they made sure he improved dramatically throughout the year before they called him up, so that when he did hit the big show he's the polished product we're currently seeing rather than a raw talent that still needs work. IIRC, Even Thom Brenneman and Jeff Brantley noted in Spring Training that while Votto could hit, he still needed work on his defense. Sound familiar?

Unless you're a Reds scout with information from coaches and player development personnel, then saying "What a load of---" is pure conjecture on your part, and doesn't hold much water, IMO.

As for Votto, congrats to him on a fine first month in the bigs. He's no doubt a legitimate contender for ROY next year, but he may have to fight it out with his own teammate (Bruce) for the award. :beerme:

Newport Red
09-30-2007, 05:27 PM
Amusing. Joey Votto is one of the top performers on ESPN's MLB website with a "No Photo Available".

GoReds33
09-30-2007, 06:22 PM
I wasn't overly impressed when I saw Joey Votto at Spring Training this past year. I thought he looked a little overmatched. I didn't see anything too bad about his defense. I think the extra seasoning he got in the minors this year helped to better prepare him for his callup. I think that he seems like a very intelligent young man, and I hope he does well down the road.