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Razor Shines
09-06-2007, 02:33 PM
I saw this movie Sunday night and the further I get away from it the more I find myself wanting to see it again. It's safe to say that I loved this movie. Russell Crowe and Christian Bale were very good, as you would expect, but Ben Foster played a great bad guy and his performance really made the movie for me. And Luke Wilson has a cool cameo as well.

BTW my wife generally doesn't like Westerns, but she really liked this movie.

justincredible
09-06-2007, 06:52 PM
I am very much looking forward to seeing this movie. My girlfriend thinks it looks stupid, I think she's crazy.

Sweetstop
09-06-2007, 07:08 PM
In preparation to see this movie we recently saw on dvd the quite good, original 1957 version starring Van Heflin and Glen Ford.

The New Yorker review of the new film goes on about how good Russell Crowe is. As Razor says, and from other reviews I've read, evidently, "Six Feet Under's" Ben Foster is a real scene stealer.

Looking forward to seeing it this weekend.

Unassisted
09-12-2007, 04:31 PM
I just saw it today. It's a good story and I liked it OK, but I wasn't bowled over by it.

I think I was least impressed by Christian Bale's work in the film. I don't know if his character was written to be dull or if his performance was flat, but I found him hard to root for. Considering how important his character was, I would have liked to see someone different in that role.

Raisor
01-08-2008, 05:28 PM
I went ahead and bought the DVD today without seeing it. Hokey smokes it was great.

Can't believe there isn't much Oscar buzz for it.

SteelSD
01-09-2008, 12:24 AM
Saw it previously and it convinced me to buy it on Blu-Ray this weekend.

To my surprise, I came home for lunch today and the wife had already picked it up! Watching it in high def right now. She's so cool.

Puffy
01-09-2008, 01:01 PM
I just ordered this thru Netflix - it should be there when I get home today and I will be watching this bad boy sometime this week.

I'm sure you are all waiting patiently for my review so I shalln't disappoint

RFS62
01-09-2008, 01:02 PM
It's a fantastic movie.

Degenerate39
01-09-2008, 08:27 PM
Great movie I loved it when I saw it in theaters I'll probably buy it on DVD soon.

GAC
01-09-2008, 09:40 PM
Gonna rent it and Open Range tommorrow. Ya just can't beat good westerns IMO.

BoydsOfSummer
01-10-2008, 09:34 AM
Open Range is a good movie if you haven't seen it yet. Robert Duvall is one of my favorites. I definitely need to see Yuma, it sounds like my kind of flick. Is it truly "the best western since Unforgiven'? Unforgiven was a beauty.

roundboy22
01-10-2008, 02:04 PM
3:10 was a good movie but personally I don't think its on the same level as Unforgiven. Still a good movie though.

GAC
01-10-2008, 02:22 PM
Is it truly "the best western since Unforgiven'? Unforgiven was a beauty.

When I saw that the first thing that came to mind was "Has there even been a major studio produce or release to the theaters a western since Unforgiven?

Lonesome Dove and Open Range were TV series, so I don't know if they would count.

The first time I saw Unforgiven I didn't like it. But it has since become one of my favorites. Eastwood made some solid westerns. I have them all on DVD. I still liked Pale Rider. The Outlaw Josie Wales is one of the best. As is The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Razor Shines
01-10-2008, 03:23 PM
I loved 3:10 to Yuma, but I don't even think it's the best western this year. The Assassination of the Outlaw Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford was one of my all time favorite movies. Casey Afflect is great in that movie.

Yuma is really good though I bought the Blu-Ray yesterday.

Dom Heffner
01-10-2008, 06:22 PM
The Assassination of the Outlaw Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford

Simply the worst title of the year.

Fans must refer to it by "TAOTOJJBTCRF."

Raisor
01-10-2008, 08:17 PM
When I saw that the first thing that came to mind was "Has there even been a major studio produce or release to the theaters a western since Unforgiven?

Lonesome Dove and Open Range were TV series, so I don't know if they would count.




Open Range was a theatrical release. Directed by Kevin Costner. I think you're thinking of another Duvall mini-series that came out a year or so after Open Range.

Open Range was fantastic. I'm not a huge Costner fan anymore, but he was born to make westerns.

GAC
01-10-2008, 09:09 PM
Open Range was a theatrical release. Directed by Kevin Costner. I think you're thinking of another Duvall mini-series that came out a year or so after Open Range.

Open Range was fantastic. I'm not a huge Costner fan anymore, but he was born to make westerns.

Lonesome Dove?

I tried to rent Open Range at the local video store today and they said they had 3 copies but had sold them.

I rented 3:10, as well as Silverado (haven't seen it in awhile), and the Quick and the Dead. Hackman is one of my favorite actors. He makes a good western villian. ;)

Raisor
01-10-2008, 09:19 PM
Lonesome Dove?



Lonesome Dove 89 (TV)

Dances with Wolves 1990

Unforgiven 1992

Tombstone 1993
Wyatt Earp 1993

Open Range 2003

Broken Trail (Duvall/Thomas Haden Church) 2006 (TV)

3:10 To Yuma 2007

GAC
01-10-2008, 09:29 PM
Lonesome Dove 89 (TV)

Dances with Wolves 1990

Unforgiven 1992

Tombstone 1993
Wyatt Earp 1993

Open Range 2003

Broken Trail (Duvall/Thomas Haden Church) 2006 (TV)

3:10 To Yuma 2007

Broken Trail. Which is that a sequel to? Lonesome Dove or Open Range?

I liked Tombstone over Wyatt Earp. Tombstone had some of the best lines in a western ever IMO. I'm not a big fan of Kilmer, but he did a great job as Holiday IMO.

Dances With Wolves, which I tried to watch just the other day for the umpteenth time was boring to me. Still can't make it all the way through it.

SteelSD
01-11-2008, 12:22 AM
I liked Tombstone over Wyatt Earp. Tombstone had some of the best lines in a western ever IMO. I'm not a big fan of Kilmer, but he did a great job as Holiday IMO.

The Pharaoh (sp?) table exchange between Kilmer's " Doc Holliday" and Michael Beihn's "Johnny Ringo" was one of the best face-offs I've ever seen and it set the tone for the rest of the film. BTW, here's what could have been the conversation when tranlated into that period's vernacular English:

http://www.dacc.cc.il.us/~jeff/tombstone-latin.html

Holliday: "Wine loosens the tongue."

Ringo: "You better pay attention to what you're doing."

Holliday: "Go tell someone else."

Ringo: "Fools must learn through experience."

Holliday: "Rest in peace."

The funny thing is that I didn't need to see the translation to understand what was going on while watching the scene. It was established at that point that not only is Holliday the smarter of the two- especially after the cup-spinning response to Ringo's gun tricks- but that Holliday is also likely the better gunfighter. We didn't understand the language, but we understood the scene. The more dangerous man spun a cup. That's brilliance in a nutshell.

For me, Kilmer's "I'm your huckleberry." response in response to Ringo's post-O.K. Corral "play for blood" demand in the street is up there with the greatest single lines of all time. Val Kilmer's performance was incredible. I'm sure it was much to Kurt Russell's dismay (especially since he was very good), but Kilmer stole every scene. Every one.

While 3:10 to Yuma is a great Western film, Tombstone is one of the best films in that genre's history IMHO. The funny thing is that I don't even own the film. I've seen it so many times that I'll only purchase it at this point on high-def (if it's ever released). But every single time I happen across it while it's running on a movie channel I stop everything in order to sit down and watch it. Dont' care where I join the flick. I just want to watch the rest of it. I honestly think the only movies I've seen more times than Tombstone are Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

As for "3:10 to Yuma" being on-par with "Unforgiven"? Well, I think a lot of the allure for that movie is Clint Eastwood playing a gunfighter. I liked the film, but it was slow to develop although the payoff was good. I'd actually slot "3:10" above "Unforgiven", but would place both behind "Tombstone".

GAC
01-11-2008, 06:13 AM
The Pharaoh (sp?) table exchange between Kilmer's " Doc Holliday" and Michael Beihn's "Johnny Ringo" was one of the best face-offs I've ever seen and it set the tone for the rest of the film.

That is a great exchange....

Johnny Ringo: [Ringo steps up to Doc] And you must be Doc Holliday.
Doc Holliday: That's the rumor.
Johnny Ringo: You retired too?
Doc Holliday: Not me. I'm in my prime.
Johnny Ringo: Yeah, you look it.
Doc Holliday: And you must be Ringo. Look, darling, Johnny Ringo. The deadliest pistoleer since Wild Bill, they say. What do you think, darling? Should I hate him?
Kate: You don't even know him.
Doc Holliday: Yes, but there's just something about him. Something around the eyes, I don't know, reminds me of... me. No. I'm sure of it, I hate him.
Wyatt Earp: [to Ringo] He's drunk.
Doc Holliday: In vino veritas.
["In wine is truth" meaning: "When I'm drinking, I speak my mind"]
Johnny Ringo: Age quod agis.
["Do what you do" meaning: "Do what you do best"]
Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus apella, non ego.
["The Jew Apella may believe it, not I" meaning: "I don't believe drinking is what I do best."]
Johnny Ringo: [pats his gun] Eventus stultorum magister.
["Events are the teachers of fools" meaning: "Fools have to learn by experience"]
Doc Holliday: [gives a Cheshire cat smile] In pace requiescat.
["Rest in peace" meaning: "It's your funeral!"]
Tombstone Marshal Fred White: Come on boys. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language.
Doc Holliday: Evidently Mr. Ringo's an educated man. Now I really hate him

I loved the exchange between Holiday and Ike Clanton after Doc was cleaning his clock at the poker table....

Ike: What is that Holiday, twelve hands in a row? Nobody's that ****** lucky.

Doc: Why Ike, whatever is the problem? Maybe poker just isn't your game. I know, let's have a spelling contest.

and....

"Oh make no doubt abut it, it's not revenge he's after. It's the reckoning."




The funny thing is that I don't even own the film. I've seen it so many times that I'll only purchase it at this point on high-def (if it's ever released). But every single time I happen across it while it's running on a movie channel I stop everything in order to sit down and watch it. Dont' care where I join the flick. I just want to watch the rest of it.

I'm exactly the same way Kori. I love a good western, especially if it's Wayne or Eastwood. I've gradually been collecting them all on DVD, and I've seen them all a million times. But if they are on cable, and I'm browsing through the channels and see one, I'll watch it again.

I just bought JW's The Searchers on Hi-Def.


As for "3:10 to Yuma" being on-par with "Unforgiven"? Well, I think a lot of the allure for that movie is Clint Eastwood playing a gunfighter. I liked the film, but it was slow to develop although the payoff was good. I'd actually slot "3:10" above "Unforgiven", but would place both behind "Tombstone".

First with Pale Rider, and then Unforgiven, I think Eastwood can be given credit for bringing a revival to westerns, which were dying as far as big time Hollywood productions because the studios didn't want to risk such a huge expenditure of money.

But to an Eastwod fan, the character in Unforgiven is like closure for that "man with no name" character that Clint portrayed in so many westerns, going back to A Fist Full of Dollars.

Another set of spaghetti westerns that I have on DVD and throughly enjoy are the Trinity movies with Terence Hill and Bud Spencer. He also made another one with Henry Fonda - "My Name Is Nobody". Some one, in the last year, used one of those movie sequences in a commercial. The scene where Hill is facing off with the gunslinger at the bar and is pulling the guys guns out of his holster, putting them back, and then slapping the crap out of the guy, only to keep repeating the process! Funny stuff. :lol:

klw
01-11-2008, 08:17 AM
Open Range has been showing on cable recently on one of the higher up channels on my system. Bravo or AMC maybe. It has been on a few times. You may be able to catch it there.

savafan
01-11-2008, 08:19 AM
I'd actually slot "3:10" above "Unforgiven", but would place both behind "Tombstone".

That's where I'd put them as well.

Chip R
01-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Another set of spaghetti westerns that I have on DVD and throughly enjoy are the Trinity movies with Terence Hill and Bud Spencer. He also made another one with Henry Fonda - "My Name Is Nobody". Some one, in the last year, used one of those movie sequences in a commercial. The scene where Hill is facing off with the gunslinger at the bar and is pulling the guys guns out of his holster, putting them back, and then slapping the crap out of the guy, only to keep repeating the process! Funny stuff. :lol:


Our family used to go watch those movies when we were kids.

Roy Tucker
01-11-2008, 10:25 AM
Some one, in the last year, used one of those movie sequences in a commercial. The scene where Hill is facing off with the gunslinger at the bar and is pulling the guys guns out of his holster, putting them back, and then slapping the crap out of the guy, only to keep repeating the process! Funny stuff. :lol:

I'm a closet cowboy poetry fan. Reminded me of this poem by Arthur Chapman

There’s a new grace up on Boot Hill, where we’ve planted Rowdy Pete;
He died one evenin’, sudden, with his leather on his feet;
He was Cactus Center’s terror with that work of art, the Colt,
But, somehow, without warnin’, he up and missed his holt.

His fav’rite trick in shootin’ was to grab his victim’s right,
Then draw his own revolver—and the rest was jest “Good-night”;
He worked it in succession on nine stout and well-armed men,
But a sickly-lookin’ stranger made Pete’s feet slip up at ten.

Pete had follered out his programme and had passed the fightin’ word;
He grabbed the stranger’s right hand, when a funny thing occurred;
The stranger was left-handed, which Pete hadn’t figgered out,
And, afore he fixed his error, Peter was dead beyond all doubt.

It was jest another instance of a flaw in work of man;
A lefty never figgered in the gunman’s battle plan;
There ain’t no scheme man thinks of that Dame Nature cannot beat—
So his pupils are unlearnin’ that cute trick they got from Pete.

Raisor
01-11-2008, 08:49 PM
Broken Trail. Which is that a sequel to? Lonesome Dove or Open Range?





Neither, Broken Trail was a stand alone mini-series.

Lonesome Dove has had quite a few sequels/prequels etc.

First was "Return to Lonesome Dove", a mini-series starring Jon Voight as Woodrow Call. It was not authorized by Larry McMurrtry. Following "Return" came Lonesome Dove the Series (season two was called LD the Outlaw years). It followed the Return to Lonesome Dove history and was quite good. It focused on Newt Call, Woodrow's son.

McMurrtry did his own sequel, based on his book called "Streets of Loredo" starring Jim Gardner as an aged Woodrow Call. Great cast and story, and I loved just about everything about it. The prequels "Deadman's Walk" came later, not that good, and Commanche Moon comes out next week (starring Val Kilmer as Gus and Woodrow's Ranger captain).

I'm a huge Lonesome Dove fan, read it once every couple years and watch the mini-series at least once a year. It's the perfect western.

Raisor
01-11-2008, 08:58 PM
The Pharaoh (sp?) table exchange between Kilmer's " .

it's "faro", you ignorant wretch.

;)

I love TOMBSTONE probably to an unhealthy level, and since we're talking about it I'll probably watch it this weekend. That being said, Costner's EARP gets a bad rap. It's very good, but it had the bad luck to be released within months of Tombstone. Costner is only ok as Wyatt, but Quaid brings the awesome as Doc. It's really a shame that neither Kilmer nor Quaid were nominated for an Oscar as both were THAT good. Would have been cool to see two actors get nominated the same year for the same character.

Tombstone just rocks though.

SteelSD
01-11-2008, 11:17 PM
it's "faro", you ignorant wretch.

;)

Hey! I noted the likely spelling error. You're just lookin' fer a fight.

Go ahead. Skin that smokewagon and see what happens...

:cool:


I love TOMBSTONE probably to an unhealthy level, and since we're talking about it I'll probably watch it this weekend. That being said, Costner's EARP gets a bad rap. It's very good, but it had the bad luck to be released within months of Tombstone. Costner is only ok as Wyatt, but Quaid brings the awesome as Doc. It's really a shame that neither Kilmer nor Quaid were nominated for an Oscar as both were THAT good. Would have been cool to see two actors get nominated the same year for the same character.

Tombstone just rocks though.

You're right about Quaid. He was excellent. That being said, Kilmer just flat out stuck his performance.

Spring~Fields
01-11-2008, 11:41 PM
Just saw 3:10
Okay Raisor, I want my money back :)

Wyatt and Doc did not miss as many as times as those guys did in 3:10 to Yuma.

Tombstone still the champ. :thumbup:

Mario-Rijo
01-12-2008, 01:52 AM
You're right about Quaid. He was excellent. That being said, Kilmer just flat out stuck his performance.

Truer words were never spoken, he was magnificent.

Watched 3:10 to Yuma last night, liked it ok but not overly so. Found it odd how Crowe's (Wade) character helped out Bale's (Evans), not very realistic even if it was meant for some sorta deeper meaning. Crowe did an excellent job though and I thought Bale did fine also.

I have always wished that I could combine Tombstone and Wyatt Earp. I love a long western (Lonesome Dove my fav) and Earp was much longer. That said everything about Tombstone was perfect casting, acting, writing, directing etc.

Dana Delaney (Josie) was an absolute gem IMO.

But nothing tops Lonesome Dove IMO, even though Blue Duck who was played by Frederic Forrest was a tad off with his obviously fake nose. But other than that I loved it, Duvall at his best and Diane (Lori Darlin') Lane was good as well. One question though, why leave out the Bear?

I agree Raisor Dead Man's Walk was pretty lame, at least once "the walk" began. I hadn't heard about Comanche Moon coming out it should be great, you did mean the movie right?

Hollcat
01-12-2008, 04:15 AM
I think Commanche Moon is coming on television

GAC
01-12-2008, 06:15 AM
it's "faro", you ignorant wretch.

;)

I love TOMBSTONE probably to an unhealthy level, and since we're talking about it I'll probably watch it this weekend. That being said, Costner's EARP gets a bad rap. It's very good, but it had the bad luck to be released within months of Tombstone. Costner is only ok as Wyatt, but Quaid brings the awesome as Doc. It's really a shame that neither Kilmer nor Quaid were nominated for an Oscar as both were THAT good. Would have been cool to see two actors get nominated the same year for the same character.

Tombstone just rocks though.

I thought Quaid did do a solid job as Holiday. And when I first saw the movie I didn't recognize him as Quaid.

GAC
01-12-2008, 06:17 AM
Go ahead. Skin that smokewagon and see what happens...

Understand that Raisor will interpret that in a completely different way. He'd rather be your huckleberry. :lol:

GAC
01-12-2008, 07:14 AM
Found it odd how Crowe's (Wade) character helped out Bale's (Evans)

To those who haven't seen the movie yet.... STOP NOW! ;)

Wade, in a strange sort of way began to admire and envy Bale as a father/husband, and that even in the hard, impoverished way of life he endured, he still held onto his morals/principles. Remember - Wade's parents abandoned him as a small child and wanted nothing to do with him. So he never experienced the type of bond he was seeing between Bale and his son. And what he did see during the ordeal he felt Bale was doing only for show, and was trying to play the hero in front of his son. That's why Wade kept probing and testing that relationship and seeing if he could drive a wedge in it along the way.

Remember the one scene when Wade was about to say something further about Bale's son and Bale cut him off and said "He's not like you!"

But Bale kept trying because along the way he was gradually, one by one, eliminating the other members of this posse. The last "hurdle" standing was this father and his son. So he was playing psychological mind games with them.

It was that scene where Wade says he's done "playing this game, and your son's not watching", and they began to fight. Wade had Bale on the floor choking him. What Bale said had a profound effect on Wade. Bale basically confesses that he's never been a hero, and then reveals a secret he has kept, even from his sons... his wooden leg, a subject Wade brought up throughout the journey, was lost from friendly fire, a story that would shame his sons, and that delivering Wade to Yuma would serve as an accomplishment his sons would admire.

That is why Wade relented and helped trying to get him to the train. Remember earlier - Wade confessed to being a the prison in Yuma twice, and also escaping twice.

So it was no big deal for him to go along and help this impoverished farmer out, and make him look good in front of his son by getting on that train when in all likelihood he'd probably be able to escape again. In the end - nobody really gets hurt, and he actually does do something GOOD (something he refused to admit existed within him to Bale's son earlier). As Wade boards, he even congratulates Evans. Mission accomplished. Yet at that moment, Wade's gang comes forth and throws a "wrench" in the plan. And even despite Wade's shouted order of "No!", shoots Evans several times and fatally wounds him. A shocked Wade then vengefully kills the members of his gang. What a twist.

Wade then somberly boards the train and surrenders his weapon. As the train pulls away, he whistles for his horse, who perks up his ears and immediately trots after the train into the distance, leaving you with the impression that when the train gets to Yuma he won't be on it.

Blimpie
01-12-2008, 10:49 AM
I watched 3:10 last night and thought it was jaw-droppingly good. I think, over the test of time, it will be thought of as an equal to "Unforgiven."

Until I read the DVD box, I had no idea that the screenplay for 3:10 was based on a short story by Elmore Leonard. Cool stuff.

nate
01-12-2008, 11:00 AM
Oddly, the wife and I watched it last night too. I thought it was pretty good. They've been showing the original as a free "OnDemand" movie, I might have to watch that one for comparison.

I think GAC's analysis of the final scene is right on.

Good acting by Crowe and Homer Bailey too!

SteelSD
01-12-2008, 04:33 PM
SPOILERS AHEAD!!! STOP IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM!!!




Wade, in a strange sort of way began to admire and envy Bale as a father/husband, and that even in the hard, impoverished way of life he endured, he still held onto his morals/principles.

Really good synopsis, GAC. But I'm not sure that Wade admired Evans (Bale) as much as he wanted to be Evans. Wade's interaction with Evans' wife (see: green eyes). Comments about how he would treat Evans' wife better. Even the rift he attempted to create between Evans and his son was, IMHO, born more of wanting a son than anything else.

Throughout the film, Wade attempted to test Evans as if Wade couldn't accept that Evans was truly a good man. The last test was the next-to-final scene and Evans passed. At that moment, I think that Wade felt he could actually be Evans, if only for a brief moment, if he could allow Evans to get him to the train. He was robbed of that moment by the actions of Charlie and the rest of his gang.

To me, it was pretty apparent that Wade wanted out even prior to the last stage coach robbery. The drawing of the bird he left on the tree was an indication, IMHO. Ditto his bizarre behavior at the saloon, where he stays behind and asks the waitress to jump out the back window and go with him to Mexico. She rejects the idea, and instead of using the back window himself, he walks back into the saloon knowing that the law is back in town. It was as if he was trying to get caught. His actions were both reckless and stupid- the same type of behavior he had blamed, less than an hour earlier, for the demise of Tommy Darden. One way or another, I think that Wade knew he was done. To me, the barmaid's rejection just set the path.

In the seconds after Evans was shot, I feel that Wade finally realized that his gang was part of the cost of his tradeoff (life of crime and riches rather than a hard, honest living with a wife and family). From my perspective, that's why he eliminated them. After all, if they wouldn't allow him to have at least a moment of being a good man, then how would they ever allow him to get out?

forfreelin04
01-12-2008, 07:42 PM
Tombstone is my favorite movie of all-time. I even had a Tombstone Movie Poster in my various hole in the wall apartments in college. It seems tacky now but it fit right at the time. I think what makes Tombstone for me is the dialogue which Raisor and Steel have mentioned and the amount of great smaller roles in the film. I enjoyed the Clanton brothers, Billy Nilly, Texas Jack and Billy Bob Throton's small role. Chuck Heston is in it too, albeit for a moment. But, the dialogue in the movie is amazing. Everytime I watch it I find another gem that then becomes my favorite.

Presently.

[while watching a play in which Faust sells his soul to the Devil]
Curly Bill: You know what I'd do? I'd take that deal 'n' crawfish, then drill that ol' Devil in the ass. What about you Juanito, what would you do?
Johnny Ringo: I already did it.

SPOILER ALERT:


I rank 3:10 to Yuma right before Unforgiven with Tombstone being first. I remember little of 'Wyatt Earp", but do remember it to be extremely long. Also, I read on the FAQ on IMDB that someone suggested Ben Wade was the father of Christian Bales's characters son? I never got that impression. Very good movie with Ben Foster stealing the show as Wade's sidekick.

Raisor
01-12-2008, 09:20 PM
SPOILERS AHEAD!!! STOP IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM!!!





Really good synopsis, GAC. But I'm not sure that Wade admired Evans (Bale) as much as he wanted to be Evans. Wade's interaction with Evans' wife (see: green eyes). Comments about how he would treat Evans' wife better. Even the rift he attempted to create between Evans and his son was, IMHO, born more of wanting a son than anything else.

Throughout the film, Wade attempted to test Evans as if Wade couldn't accept that Evans was truly a good man. The last test was the next-to-final scene and Evans passed. At that moment, I think that Wade felt he could actually be Evans, if only for a brief moment, if he could allow Evans to get him to the train. He was robbed of that moment by the actions of Charlie and the rest of his gang.

To me, it was pretty apparent that Wade wanted out even prior to the last stage coach robbery. The drawing of the bird he left on the tree was an indication, IMHO. Ditto his bizarre behavior at the saloon, where he stays behind and asks the waitress to jump out the back window and go with him to Mexico. She rejects the idea, and instead of using the back window himself, he walks back into the saloon knowing that the law is back in town. It was as if he was trying to get caught. His actions were both reckless and stupid- the same type of behavior he had blamed, less than an hour earlier, for the demise of Tommy Darden. One way or another, I think that Wade knew he was done. To me, the barmaid's rejection just set the path.

In the seconds after Evans was shot, I feel that Wade finally realized that his gang was part of the cost of his tradeoff (life of crime and riches rather than a hard, honest living with a wife and family). From my perspective, that's why he eliminated them. After all, if they wouldn't allow him to have at least a moment of being a good man, then how would they ever allow him to get out?


I agree with all of this, but I'd also add that Wade was having FUN. I think he wanted to see if Evans had the stones to get him on that train. He knew he could escape at anytime, up to and including the prison, but he wanted to see how determined Evans was.
Wade was bored with the outlaw life and was using Evans as entertainment.

SteelSD
01-13-2008, 12:33 AM
I agree with all of this, but I'd also add that Wade was having FUN. I think he wanted to see if Evans had the stones to get him on that train. He knew he could escape at anytime, up to and including the prison, but he wanted to see how determined Evans was.

Wade was bored with the outlaw life and was using Evans as entertainment.

Sure, although I think the character (Wade) was also disgusted with his associates on both sides of the conflict. Heck, he called his own gang "animals". And after watching the film again, that wasn't a complimentary term. Evans was likely the first good man he had ever been around for any period of time. But it took Wade time to confirm that Evans wasn't just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And the more I think about the ending of the film, the more I'm convinced that we should expect Wade to escape from the train and that his very next act would be to return to Evans' ranch to ensure that the railroad pays its debt to Evans' family. I believe the reason Wade didn't kill Evans prior to the final mad dash to the train station is that when Evans declared that he'd never been a hero, Wade realized that he hadn't either. Having that taken away from him (Evans dead and Evans' son rejecting him), ensuring the safety and survival of Evans' family is the only chance he'd have left to be even a little bit of the man he wanted to be, but couldn't.

Really, I don't think a lot of folks realize just how good this movie is until they watch it three or four times and notice the very subtle undertones running through the film.

Razor Shines
01-13-2008, 01:05 AM
Sure, although I think the character (Wade) was also disgusted with his associates on both sides of the conflict. Heck, he called his own gang "animals". And after watching the film again, that wasn't a complimentary term. Evans was likely the first good man he had ever been around for any period of time. But it took Wade time to confirm that Evans wasn't just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And the more I think about the ending of the film, the more I'm convinced that we should expect Wade to escape from the train and that his very next act would be to return to Evans' ranch to ensure that the railroad pays its debt to Evans' family. I believe the reason Wade didn't kill Evans prior to the final mad dash to the train station is that when Evans declared that he'd never been a hero, Wade realized that he hadn't either. Having that taken away from him (Evans dead and Evans' son rejecting him), ensuring the safety and survival of Evans' family is the only chance he'd have left to be even a little bit of the man he wanted to be, but couldn't.

Really, I don't think a lot of folks realize just how good this movie is until they watch it three or four times and notice the very subtle undertones running through the film.

Completely agree with this. It's what I was getting at with the first post of this thread. The more I thought about what the ending meant, the more I liked it.

GAC
01-13-2008, 02:18 AM
Very Good points SD and Raisor.

And I do agree Raisor - I sensed that Wade was toying with them also, and could escape at any time. But that mentality changed as their ordeal progressed and Wade saw Evan for who he really was. That he was no phoney. Wade began to sympathize with him, even though he wouldn't open up and admit it. A hardened and highly reputable badman couldn't show that. But he began to see something he envied and wanted. So he continued to "tag along" to discover more.

You got two guys here in Wade and Evans, in which both of their lives/career paths were ones of hard knocks, trials, and difficulty. Just on different sides of the tracks so to speak. IMHO, both felt they had been dealt a "bad hand", meaning, they got screwed undeservingly by the system (society)...... Evans was left with a bad leg from the war, which was a burden for him when it came to adequately providing for his family. I liked what he said about the government, whom he was also bitter towards, when it came to compensation for that war injury.... "They didn't pay me for my leg, they paid me to go away." Then he had a local, whom he owed money, burning down his barn and trying to force him off his land. He felt, in a very misguided way, that money would provide the solution. But later on he discovered differently.

Wade felt he was given a raw deal from the very beginning when his father was killed when he was born, and then his mother abandoned him. Therefore, he was never given the chance at a normal life like most people. No one ever looked after or provided for him. He had to learn to do it for himself the best he could. And that led him to a life of a criminal. It was a life he grew to not care for, even despised deep down inside;but didn't know how to escape because that is all he ever knew. Until he met Evan (and son).

And I think that is why he was testing Evan so vehemently. He was really testing his lifestyle to see if it was all "show" or valid before he made the jump, because his life up to this point had been one of uncertainty/uneveness. And he was finally convinced of that, in that final fight with Evan, when he had him on the floor, and Evan made the confession. Wade realized his "going along" provided a way out, redemption, for both of these men. Both men would get what they wanted out of this ordeal.

SD is right about Wade's gang IMO. Wade really, deep down, hated his gang (animals), and in a strange sort of way felt his association with them, and their very existence, would prevent him from ever finding a way out. And their appearance and "intervention" at the end, when they maliciously kill Evan, and thwart Wade's plan, convinced Wade of this fact. That's why he retaliated and killed them all. He could never "escape"as long as they existed.

They showed a close up shot of the gun/holster that Wade used just prior to killing the gang. Were they his? Anyone notice they had a cross on them? I was trying to figure out if this had any significance.

I agree that this is a movie that has to be watched several times. An excellent movie IMO. It was alot like a previous Bale movie - The Prestige. I loved that movie too,and bought the DVD. I'm gaining newfound respect for Bale as an actor.

SteelSD
01-13-2008, 02:42 AM
I agree that this is a movie that has to be watched several times. An excellent movie IMO. It was alot like a previous Bale movie - The Prestige. I loved that movie too,and bought the DVD. I'm gaining newfound respect for Bale as an actor.

If you haven't seen "The Machinist", I highly recommend it. Bale's exceptional in it. For an action movie, "Equalibrium" is also pretty decent, even though it tries to be a little bit more than what it is.

SteelSD
01-13-2008, 03:11 AM
AGAIN, MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD. GO NO FURTHER IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS FILM BUT WANT TO!




They showed a close up shot of the gun/holster that Wade used just prior to killing the gang. Were they his? Anyone notice they had a cross on them? I was trying to figure out if this had any significance.

Yep. That was his gun. In the saloon scene where he was intially caught, he warned that it was cursed. He was right, of course, because every character (other than Wade) who touched that gun was killed during the film. I find it interesting that in the final scene, Wade's gun was touched by three of the four remaining gang members as it was passed forward to Wade. There was really no need for that. Did the other gang members hold the gun at some point in time? We don't know, but I think that was a suggestive setup.

I think the significance of the cross on the hilt became clear when Wade told Evans about how him mother abandoned him. If we want to go all psychological, it could be argued that every time he used it to kill someone, he was subconsciously using the Bible his mother left him with to kill her over and over again. Yes, Wade cited love for his mother as the reason for killing Byron McElroy, but I'd suggest that McElroy was killed simply for bringing up Wade's mother. And I also think it's interesting that the last words we heard prior to Wade wiping out his own gang was Charlie Prince's description of Evans: "For a one-legged rancher, he was one tough son of a *****." There are any number of far better lines to write for Prince's character at that moment. But that's the one they used. Interesting, IMHO.

I felt the close-up of the gun in the final scene was significant as Wade finally realized that instead of killing her, he should be destroying what she basically forced him to become as symbolized by his gang. I also think it's important to note that Wade never mentions his weapon after it's initially taken away, but in the final scence (after Will Evans stands down), Wade carefully collects the gun and holster and hands it off prior to walking into the cell. When Wade picked that gun up, I feel that he finally figured out that his behavior was his "cross to bear". He could have, after all, simply left it on the ground. By handing it off, that may have been his way of saying that it was finally over, but I think it isn't for a couple reasons.

I'm going to talk about religious symbolism for a moment, but only in the context of this film. A couple items of interest:

1. Near the end of the film, Will Evans finds that Wade has drawn a pic of Dan Evans on the page of the bible that immediately precedes "Genesis". The interesting thing is that the drawing was produced on a page with text while a completely textless page is right next to it. I don't think this is an accident.

2. Note the two men in the train cell Wade joins when he enters for the final time. We don't see them at all (due to camera angle) when he intially enters the cell. But we do see them in the background when he guns down his gang. Both are older men and both have long beards. Probably not the usual type one might see on a prison train to Yuma. One might only be able to see this on Blu-Ray, but as Wade grabs Prince for the last time before putting the second shot into Prince's heart, the man on the left leans over to the man on the right and says something (we can't hear it). Wade enters the train after Will decides not to kill him, hands off his weapon, and enters the cell. The man on the right (with the smaller hat <same style> and shorter beard) gives up his seat upon Wade entering the cell and then Wade sits to to the left-hand side of the remaining individual. If the remaining seated passenger is who I think he might be for the purposes of this movie, then Wade has good cause to whistle for his horse because that's where the Archangel Gabriel should be sitting.

IMHO, symbolism is pretty darned heavy in 3:10 to Yuma. Even "Charlie Prince's" (Ben Foster) last name is symbolic as it calls into play a dynamic of someone who desperately wants to be the King (Wade), but who's also incredibly petulant and prideful. Prince fashioned himself as something akin to Wade's "son", but really only acted based on his own greed, pride, and determination to ascend to the "throne". Even after members of his own gang noted that it was Wade's own fault that he got caught for making a mistake (basically the rationale for Wade killing Tommy Darden), Prince's only response was "You forgot what he done for us." Wade himself pretty much layed out the rules by that point, he broke them, and it wasn't Prince's loyalty or love that drove him to continue the chase.

During the gunfight scenes in Contention City, Prince's character was chided by one of his own gang that he wouldn't get to use his Schofield pistols. He immediately began looking for excuses to shoot people. His boss was in danger of being shot prior to that moment, but Prince only became involved after he realized that he might not be able to contribute even though he gave some of the folks he shot incentive to put Wade in danger. IMHO, the only reason Prince was trying to keep Wade alive was that he was his meal ticket who could eventually hand over the "throne" to Prince.

Honestly this film does get better and better the more times you see it. It's like one of those hidden gems that has details impossible to pick up after even two viewings. For pure enjoyment factor, Tombstone is still in the lead, but after a few viewings "3:10 to Yuma" simply thrashes "Unforgiven" in an entierly unreasonable fashion.

mth123
01-13-2008, 09:24 AM
Of the modern westerns (Post John Wayne era) I like Tombstone, Silverado and 3:10 to Yuma in that order. Unforgiven and Pale Rider were both disappointing IMO and were largely popular due to an audience that was hungry for the Nostalgia of Eastwood in a Western. Broken Trail and Open Range were both very good as well.

My question of the day: The line "I'm your Huckleberry" was perfect in Tombstone but what is the origin? Is it some phrase that only I'd never heard before? Was it a popular phrase in the 1800's? Is it something Doc Holiday was actually known to say? Or was it just made up for the movie? Anyone know? I get the gist of it from the context, but what is it supposed to mean exactly? Why is "I'm your huckleberry" supposed to mean your fight is with me or pick on me or whatever?

RFS62
01-13-2008, 09:37 AM
Wow, that's some analysis there, GAC and Steel.

I knew something was up in that last scene when Wade was going on and on about the "best onion rings in Yuma".

Raisor
01-13-2008, 09:40 AM
And the more I think about the ending of the film, the more I'm convinced that we should expect Wade to escape from the train and that his very next act would be to return to Evans' ranch to ensure that the railroad pays its debt to Evans' family. .

Heck, they pretty much forshadowed it perfectly with Wade whistling for his horse. He only got on that train because of Evans' son. He wanted the son to feel that his father hadn't failed.

GAC
01-13-2008, 10:24 AM
Of the modern westerns (Post John Wayne era) I like Tombstone, Silverado and 3:10 to Yuma in that order. Unforgiven and Pale Rider were both disappointing IMO and were largely popular due to an audience that was hungry for the Nostalgia of Eastwood in a Western. Broken Trail and Open Range were both very good as well.

My question of the day: The line "I'm your Huckleberry" was perfect in Tombstone but what is the origin? Is it some phrase that only I'd never heard before? Was it a popular phrase in the 1800's? Is it something Doc Holiday was actually known to say? Or was it just made up for the movie? Anyone know? I get the gist of it from the context, but what is it supposed to mean exactly? Why is "I'm your huckleberry" supposed to mean your fight is with me or pick on me or whatever?

I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/Itemsofinterest1/huckleberrysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

Mario-Rijo
01-13-2008, 06:49 PM
SPOILERS AHEAD!!! STOP IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM!!!





Really good synopsis, GAC. But I'm not sure that Wade admired Evans (Bale) as much as he wanted to be Evans. Wade's interaction with Evans' wife (see: green eyes). Comments about how he would treat Evans' wife better. Even the rift he attempted to create between Evans and his son was, IMHO, born more of wanting a son than anything else.

Throughout the film, Wade attempted to test Evans as if Wade couldn't accept that Evans was truly a good man. The last test was the next-to-final scene and Evans passed. At that moment, I think that Wade felt he could actually be Evans, if only for a brief moment, if he could allow Evans to get him to the train. He was robbed of that moment by the actions of Charlie and the rest of his gang.

To me, it was pretty apparent that Wade wanted out even prior to the last stage coach robbery. The drawing of the bird he left on the tree was an indication, IMHO. Ditto his bizarre behavior at the saloon, where he stays behind and asks the waitress to jump out the back window and go with him to Mexico. She rejects the idea, and instead of using the back window himself, he walks back into the saloon knowing that the law is back in town. It was as if he was trying to get caught. His actions were both reckless and stupid- the same type of behavior he had blamed, less than an hour earlier, for the demise of Tommy Darden. One way or another, I think that Wade knew he was done. To me, the barmaid's rejection just set the path.

In the seconds after Evans was shot, I feel that Wade finally realized that his gang was part of the cost of his tradeoff (life of crime and riches rather than a hard, honest living with a wife and family). From my perspective, that's why he eliminated them. After all, if they wouldn't allow him to have at least a moment of being a good man, then how would they ever allow him to get out?

Both good explanations. But I have to think that it's does make a little more sense now with your synopsis Steel. I got all of it except his desire to be like Evans that makes sense.

Either way a solid movie, just not the pure adventure that I always enjoy.

nate
01-13-2008, 07:09 PM
Very deep analysis, Steel and GAC...interesting! I'll have to watch again.

WMR
01-13-2008, 07:53 PM
The Pharaoh (sp?) table exchange between Kilmer's " Doc Holliday" and Michael Beihn's "Johnny Ringo" was one of the best face-offs I've ever seen and it set the tone for the rest of the film. BTW, here's what could have been the conversation when tranlated into that period's vernacular English:

http://www.dacc.cc.il.us/~jeff/tombstone-latin.html

Holliday: "Wine loosens the tongue."

Ringo: "You better pay attention to what you're doing."

Holliday: "Go tell someone else."

Ringo: "Fools must learn through experience."

Holliday: "Rest in peace."

The funny thing is that I didn't need to see the translation to understand what was going on while watching the scene. It was established at that point that not only is Holliday the smarter of the two- especially after the cup-spinning response to Ringo's gun tricks- but that Holliday is also likely the better gunfighter. We didn't understand the language, but we understood the scene. The more dangerous man spun a cup. That's brilliance in a nutshell.

For me, Kilmer's "I'm your huckleberry." response in response to Ringo's post-O.K. Corral "play for blood" demand in the street is up there with the greatest single lines of all time. Val Kilmer's performance was incredible. I'm sure it was much to Kurt Russell's dismay (especially since he was very good), but Kilmer stole every scene. Every one.

While 3:10 to Yuma is a great Western film, Tombstone is one of the best films in that genre's history IMHO. The funny thing is that I don't even own the film. I've seen it so many times that I'll only purchase it at this point on high-def (if it's ever released). But every single time I happen across it while it's running on a movie channel I stop everything in order to sit down and watch it. Dont' care where I join the flick. I just want to watch the rest of it. I honestly think the only movies I've seen more times than Tombstone are Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

As for "3:10 to Yuma" being on-par with "Unforgiven"? Well, I think a lot of the allure for that movie is Clint Eastwood playing a gunfighter. I liked the film, but it was slow to develop although the payoff was good. I'd actually slot "3:10" above "Unforgiven", but would place both behind "Tombstone".

They've been playing Tombstone on one of the HD channels quite regularly for awhile now. I'm the same way as you. Wherever I see it on, wherever in the movie it might be, I'll watch the rest of it. A really fun movie to watch in high-def.

mth123
01-13-2008, 10:05 PM
I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/Itemsofinterest1/huckleberrysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

Thanks.

SteelSD
01-14-2008, 01:11 AM
Heck, they pretty much forshadowed it perfectly with Wade whistling for his horse. He only got on that train because of Evans' son. He wanted the son to feel that his father hadn't failed.

You may be right about the Wade's motivation for getting on the train.

However, William Evans had already told his father that he'd completed his mission by getting Wade on the train the first time. At that point, I'm not sure that anything Wade would have done would have changed Will's opinion of his father. IMHO, Evans was already a "hero" in his son's eyes. I'd suggest that wouldn't have changed had Wade not boarded the train. William's inability to kill Wade had nothing to do with his father. William didn't kill Wade because he knew that he wasn't anything like Wade (even though Wade previously suggested otherwise). And Wade was waiting for it. He gave himself up to William (no gun, no defense). Wade basically said, "Kill me. Be my successor. Be my son." But William wouldn't do it because he finally knew who his father really was.

IMHO, Wade boarded the train the second time in search of absolution for his past deeds after killing his gang (the epitome of what he had created). And I think that, by walking through the threshold of the cell on the train, he was able to (in his eyes) find it.

To me, the interesting thing is that I don't think Wade's character changed at all during the film. I don't think he suddenly found compassion or humanity. He was, after all, completely selfish the entire time. In the end, I think Wade only finaly found the purpose hidden in his true nature.

BTW, for everyone who's contributed to this topic, I'd like to congratulate you on what has been, to me, one of the better non-baseball threads ever on Redszone. Really fantastic stuff.

GAC
01-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Maybe Evan's perception (or misconception) of what a hero is, was quite different from his son's? ;)

Evan saw his life as a failure in many ways. Yet from the eye's of an "outsider", his son, he saw his Dad struggle with hardship and trials yet held to his character while providing for his family.

"You can't see the trees for the forest."

Evan was George Bailey! :lol:

dman
01-15-2008, 12:40 PM
I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/Itemsofinterest1/huckleberrysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

GAC, from what I gathered, the term "I'm your huckleberry" came from funeral services of the era. Pallbearers were known to have worn huckleberry leaves on their lapels to indicate their duty. The term orginally was coined hucklebearers, but as time went on it mophed into huckleberry because of the leaf. So when Doc would say "I'm your huckleberry:, he was essentially saying "I'll be the one to carry you in your own casket.

BoydsOfSummer
01-15-2008, 09:41 PM
Okay, I've now seen Yuma and read through the Dunn-Like analysis.:p: Very good film, however not enough to surpass Unforgiven in my eyes.

I really liked 'Wyatt Earp' with Costner; more than most here apparently.

I would rank them:
Unforgiven
Tombstone
3:10 to Yuma

Mario-Rijo
01-15-2008, 10:09 PM
You may be right about the Wade's motivation for getting on the train.

However, William Evans had already told his father that he'd completed his mission by getting Wade on the train the first time. At that point, I'm not sure that anything Wade would have done would have changed Will's opinion of his father. IMHO, Evans was already a "hero" in his son's eyes. I'd suggest that wouldn't have changed had Wade not boarded the train. William's inability to kill Wade had nothing to do with his father. William didn't kill Wade because he knew that he wasn't anything like Wade (even though Wade previously suggested otherwise). And Wade was waiting for it. He gave himself up to William (no gun, no defense). Wade basically said, "Kill me. Be my successor. Be my son." But William wouldn't do it because he finally knew who his father really was.

IMHO, Wade boarded the train the second time in search of absolution for his past deeds after killing his gang (the epitome of what he had created). And I think that, by walking through the threshold of the cell on the train, he was able to (in his eyes) find it.

To me, the interesting thing is that I don't think Wade's character changed at all during the film. I don't think he suddenly found compassion or humanity. He was, after all, completely selfish the entire time. In the end, I think Wade only finaly found the purpose hidden in his true nature.

BTW, for everyone who's contributed to this topic, I'd like to congratulate you on what has been, to me, one of the better non-baseball threads ever on Redszone. Really fantastic stuff.

It certainly has been very good conversation, very deep! :thumbup:

Mario-Rijo
01-15-2008, 10:29 PM
Okay, I've now seen Yuma and read through the Dunn-Like analysis.:p: Very good film, however not enough to surpass Unforgiven in my eyes.

I really liked 'Wyatt Earp' with Costner; more than most here apparently.

I would rank them:
Unforgiven
Tombstone
3:10 to Yuma

My top 10 is: (Put in order of what I would watch 1st if they were all on at the same time)

Lonesome Dove
Tombstone
Return to Lonesome Dove
Young Guns
The Sons of Katie Elder
Dances with Wolves (I count it)
Unforgiven
3:10 to Yuma
The Magnificent Seven
Wyatt Earp
The Quick and the Dead *Edit* (#10 is changed to Open Range)

My only obvious thumbs down is:
The Wild Bunch - Had to turn it off about 1/4 of the way through!

Special Mention to:
Anything w/ Eastwood, Wayne, Duvall, Costner & Sam Elliott in it.

SteelSD
01-16-2008, 02:29 AM
GAC, from what I gathered, the term "I'm your huckleberry" came from funeral services of the era. Pallbearers were known to have worn huckleberry leaves on their lapels to indicate their duty. The term orginally was coined hucklebearers, but as time went on it mophed into huckleberry because of the leaf. So when Doc would say "I'm your huckleberry:, he was essentially saying "I'll be the one to carry you in your own casket.

From what I've read, either "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'll take you to your grave." would be reasonable interpretations. But considering that Holliday's next words were "That's just my game.", I'd suggest that "I'm just the man for the job, that's just my game." would likely be the best interpretation as "I'll take you to your grave." probably wouldn't have needed a follow-up after Holliday's prior Latin phrase that can be translated as "Rest in Peace".

Holliday repeats "I'm your huckleberry." prior to the final standoff with Ringo and then said, "Why, Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." At this point, I have to go with "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'm just the man you're looking for." as being the most likely meaning, considering that an announcement of "I'll take you to your grave." likely wouldn't be followed up with a declaration that someone just walked over it.

Mario-Rijo
01-16-2008, 08:46 PM
From what I've read, either "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'll take you to your grave." would be reasonable interpretations. But considering that Holliday's next words were "That's just my game.", I'd suggest that "I'm just the man for the job, that's just my game." would likely be the best interpretation as "I'll take you to your grave." probably wouldn't have needed a follow-up after Holliday's prior Latin phrase that can be translated as "Rest in Peace".

Holliday repeats "I'm your huckleberry." prior to the final standoff with Ringo and then said, "Why, Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." At this point, I have to go with "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'm just the man you're looking for." as being the most likely meaning, considering that an announcement of "I'll take you to your grave." likely wouldn't be followed up with a declaration that someone just walked over it.

Especially since (and this may not have any bearing but it might) Ringo would have been looking for Wyatt at the time.

GAC
01-16-2008, 10:11 PM
My top 10 is: (Put in order of what I would watch 1st if they were all on at the same time)

Lonesome Dove
Tombstone
Return to Lonesome Dove
Young Guns
The Sons of Katie Elder
Dances with Wolves (I count it)
Unforgiven
3:10 to Yuma
The Magnificent Seven
Wyatt Earp
The Quick and the Dead *Edit* (#10 is changed to Open Range)

My only obvious thumbs down is:
The Wild Bunch - Had to turn it off about 1/4 of the way through!

Special Mention to:
Anything w/ Eastwood, Wayne, Duvall, Costner & Sam Elliott in it.

Being a huge fan of westerns, I don't think I could name my Top 10 westerns. I'd discover I had left something out.

Some of my favorites, besides what you have mentioned above.....

The Westerner (Gary Cooper and Walter Brennan)
My Darling Clementine (Henry Fonda)
High Noon (simply a classic)
Santa Fe Trail (Errol Flynn)
Winchester 73
Gun Fight At OK Corral
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

When it comes to John Wayne and Clint Eastwood westerns - I love them all. I've come close to having them all in my collection; but if they're on TV I'll still watch them. But IMO, you can't beat a John Ford or Howard Hawk western.

Some of my favorites though....

The Searchers (just bought it in Hi-Def)
Chisum (classic Wayne)
While I liked True Grit, I really enjoyed the sequel Rooster Cogburn with Hepburn. What a duo.

The Sergio Leone trilogy was excellent. But one of my favorite of Eastwood's is The Outlaw Josie Wales.

Sam Peckinpah's Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid is also good. I didn't really care much for The Wild Bunch w/ William Holden.

Over this past year I've been making the effort to try and find/collect the old 50's/60's TV western series I grew up enjoying. Shows like Cheyenne, Sugar Foot, Bronco, Have Gun Will Travel, and others.

Thank God for the Encore Western channel. I watch it religiously.

Mario-Rijo
01-16-2008, 11:49 PM
Being a huge fan of westerns, I don't think I could name my Top 10 westerns. I'd discover I had left something out.
Some of my favorites, besides what you have mentioned above.....

The Westerner (Gary Cooper and Walter Brennan)
My Darling Clementine (Henry Fonda)
High Noon (simply a classic)
Santa Fe Trail (Errol Flynn)
Winchester 73
Gun Fight At OK Corral
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

When it comes to John Wayne and Clint Eastwood westerns - I love them all. I've come close to having them all in my collection; but if they're on TV I'll still watch them. But IMO, you can't beat a John Ford or Howard Hawk western.

Some of my favorites though....

The Searchers (just bought it in Hi-Def)
Chisum (classic Wayne)
While I liked True Grit, I really enjoyed the sequel Rooster Cogburn with Hepburn. What a duo.

The Sergio Leone trilogy was excellent. But one of my favorite of Eastwood's is The Outlaw Josie Wales.

Sam Peckinpah's Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid is also good. I didn't really care much for The Wild Bunch w/ William Holden.

Over this past year I've been making the effort to try and find/collect the old 50's/60's TV western series I grew up enjoying. Shows like Cheyenne, Sugar Foot, Bronco, Have Gun Will Travel, and others.

Thank God for the Encore Western channel. I watch it religiously.

No question, no sooner than I filled out that top 10 (mostly off the top of my head) I started thinking about more. Butch and Sundance was one I forgot about until you mentioned. Rooster Cogburn was very good.

Terence Hill/Bud Spencer movies (The Trinity Coll./Boot Hill/My name is nobody) was/is also one that's a bit obscure that I really get a kick out of watching.

GAC
01-17-2008, 09:59 PM
Terence Hill/Bud Spencer movies (The Trinity Coll./Boot Hill/My name is nobody) was/is also one that's a bit obscure that I really get a kick out of watching.

I bought the entire DVD set awhile back. Boot Hill sucked; but My Name is Nobody with Henry Fonda is excellent.

Mario-Rijo
01-21-2008, 06:43 PM
I bought the entire DVD set awhile back. Boot Hill sucked; but My Name is Nobody with Henry Fonda is excellent.

They call me Trinity is the only one I have. But have seen one of the others as well of course it's been so long I forget nearly all of it, It may have been Boot Hill. My Dad told me about My Name is Nobody, said I would enjoy it.

Terence Hill is a very entertaining character.

GAC
01-21-2008, 10:05 PM
My Dad told me about My Name is Nobody, said I would enjoy it.

Terence Hill is a very entertaining character.

If you've never seen that one, and you enjoy the Terence Hill character, then that one is right up your alley. Fonda plays an aging gunfighter who is retired and ready to disappear before some young upstart does him in. Hill's character, who idolizes him, opposes that and wants him to go out in a blaze of glory to secure his name by facing off against the Wild Bunch, which Hill sets up. A solid movie with a surprise ending. Nuff said. ;)

Mario-Rijo
01-22-2008, 06:14 PM
If you've never seen that one, and you enjoy the Terence Hill character, then that one is right up your alley. Fonda plays an aging gunfighter who is retired and ready to disappear before some young upstart does him in. Hill's character, who idolizes him, opposes that and wants him to go out in a blaze of glory to secure his name by facing off against the Wild Bunch, which Hill sets up. A solid movie with a surprise ending. Nuff said. ;)

Good deal, I will be sure to pick it up! :thumbup:

RedlegJake
01-23-2008, 12:12 AM
First time I've been to this part of the site. I loved this thread, thanks everyone. Also a great Western fan and haven't seen 3:10 yet but reading the thread didn't faze me - I really enjoy reading a book then seeing the movie rather than vice versa.

One Western genre that didn't take place in the West that I really liked was Tom Selleck's Quigley Down Under. Still love watching High Noon the original, and the original Shane, too. As a kid I was fascinated by mountain men so Jeremiah Johnson is a favorite. And another Aussie "western" I love "Return to Snowy River". That wild ride down the mountain is just incredible if you're a horse lover. The sequel was disappointing though.

GAC
01-23-2008, 09:31 PM
I just watched Jeremiah Johnson a couple weeks ago. It should be added top anyone's collection.

Another movie I hadn't seen in years and found it on DVD was Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman. I loved Richard Mulligan's Custer portrayal! :lol:

SteelSD
01-24-2008, 12:57 AM
BTW, if we're talking about great Westerns, "No Country for Old Men" qualifies, IMHO.

It's not set in the Old West, but it incorporates all of the best elements of the Western genre. It's a "New Western", loosely disguised as a semi-modern film and it's brilliant. I've seen so many films that I long to see things I haven't seen before. I'm not often surprised, and I'm very seldom actually intimidated by the bad guy. This film gave me all of that.

George Foster
01-24-2008, 10:20 PM
My wife and I saw 3:10 Monday night. It's one of the best movies I've seen in years. With 2 young children, we have to wait for the DVD to come out, but it was well worth the wait. When Crowe told the story of sitting outside the train station for 3 days waiting on his mother, I almost teared up.

I was a little disappointed in the ending. If I was writing the ending, I would of had the son killing the guy who killed his father, and when the other bad guys turned their guns on the son, Crowe would of killed them, showing (to the son) that he did have some good in him after all. Remember, the son did not know that Crowe went to the train station willingly. Crowe would of saved the sons life. I also thought that whistling for his horse was a little "cheesie" and light hearted after such a dramatic scene.

Raisor
08-16-2008, 09:36 PM
I just watched this again. It's such a great movie. If you haven't seen it yet, go ahead and buy it, forget about renting.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-17-2008, 10:11 PM
Yep.

Best movies I've seen in past 365 days:

3:10 to Yuma
No Country for Old Men
There Will be Blood
Into the Wild
August Rush
Batman Begins (had never seen it)
Batman - The Dark Knight

VR
08-18-2008, 12:16 AM
Glad I stumbled across this. "GAC and Steele" just doesn't quite have the same ring as "Siskel and Ebert", but great analysis none-the-less.

I ordered it on Netflix this spring, only to get the original version. :confused:

While I'm kinda disappointed I did (I thought I knew the ending, and it was much different), it was very good to compare and contrast.

I would highly recommend anyone to check it out. Glenn Ford as Ben Wade was great...although nowhere near Russell Crowe's effort.

Degenerate39
08-18-2008, 01:17 AM
Glad I stumbled across this. "GAC and Steele" just doesn't quite have the same ring as "Siskel and Ebert", but great analysis none-the-less.

I ordered it on Netflix this spring, only to get the original version. :confused:

While I'm kinda disappointed I did (I thought I knew the ending, and it was much different), it was very good to compare and contrast.

I would highly recommend anyone to check it out. Glenn Ford as Ben Wade was great...although nowhere near Russell Crowe's effort.

I liked the original one. Hated the ending though.

George Foster
08-22-2008, 12:33 AM
I liked the original one. Hated the ending though.


are there 2 endings? What is the 2nd version? Tell Me!:D

Degenerate39
08-22-2008, 12:34 AM
are there 2 endings? What is the 2nd version? Tell Me!:D

I was thinking about the original movie. Hated it's ending.

redlegs7089
08-22-2008, 12:36 AM
there will be blood is a terrible movie

The Baumer
08-22-2008, 05:33 PM
there will be blood is a terrible movie

See my signature.