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westofyou
09-13-2007, 10:12 AM
Ump Tells Lout To Not Shout, So He's Out

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/12/AR2007091202444.html


MIAMI, Sept. 12 -- There were so few fans at Dolphin Stadium for Wednesday's game, a season ticket holder got thrown out for heckling the umpire too loudly.

In the fifth inning of the Florida Marlins' 5-4 victory over the Washington Nationals, home plate umpire Paul Schreiber gave the thumb to an unnamed man seated behind the plate who had been verbally abusive throughout the contest.

"The fan was chirping at the umpire," Nationals catcher Brian Schneider said. "There was no need for it."

The man was so loud, and the atmosphere so quiet, the fan could be heard saying "you don't make more than me" on the television broadcast as he was forced to leave. There were no more than about 400 fans in attendance at the game's peak.

Send them to PDX, we'll top 400.

chicoruiz
09-13-2007, 10:23 AM
Or "Shoo, Says Blue to Mr. Boo".

I remember a Sporting News article about Mel Stottlemyre denying that he was thinking about retiring. The headline was, "'Wott Rot', says Stott of Retirement Plot". They don't write them like that any more. Well, WOY does...

Johnny Footstool
09-13-2007, 10:27 AM
Ump Dumps Grumpy Chump

RFS62
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
Marlin fan gets the hook

Unassisted
09-13-2007, 11:24 AM
Fan Screams, Ump Heaves, Fan Leaves

Chip R
09-13-2007, 11:32 AM
Are we writing Variety headlines here? ;)

writerdan33
09-13-2007, 01:14 PM
Mouthy Marlin Fan Gets Fast Finger From Bitter Blue

MartyFan
09-13-2007, 01:23 PM
What is the deal? 400 fans? Good lord! Save the league and move that team from there...Phoenix, Portland, Vegas...c'mon!

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 01:24 PM
Marlins are turning into the Expos, except with some actual history.

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 01:24 PM
What is the deal? 400 fans? Good lord! Save the league and move that team from there...Phoenix, Portland, Vegas...c'mon!

The Diamondbacks might have something to say about Phoenix ;)

CaiGuy
09-13-2007, 01:56 PM
What is the deal? 400 fans? Good lord! Save the league and move that team from there...Phoenix, Portland, Vegas...c'mon!

Dayton sells out every game. ;)

redsrule2500
09-13-2007, 02:19 PM
After 12 Innings, Nats Left Feeling Vacant
Grueling Day In Desolate Park Ends With Loss: Marlins 5, Nationals 4

By Amy Shipley
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 13, 2007; Page E05

MIAMI, Sept. 12 -- After 4 hours 9 minutes of laboring in the tropical midday heat in a cavernous and virtually empty stadium Wednesday afternoon, the Washington Nationals got stuck with this: a 5-4 loss to the Florida Marlins in 12 innings that was sealed when a .226 reserve player chopped a single through the infield to drive home the winning run.

Florida left fielder Todd Linden, waived earlier this year by the San Francisco Giants, got his bat on a sinker from reliever Saul Rivera and punched it just to the right of second base as shortstop D'Angelo Jimenez and second baseman Ronnie Belliard tried, but failed, to get gloves on the ball.

Dolphin Stadium in Miami is all but deserted for the Nationals' game against the Marlins.
"It was so sad," Nats Manager Manny Acta said of the atmosphere.

Reggie Abercrombie, elected to pinch-run for Mike Jacobs after his leadoff double, scored from third to end a marathon that had been deadlocked since the sixth inning. The several dozen fans who speckled the plastic orange seating provided an odd backdrop, offering the same chorus of celebratory shouts and claps that would accompany a Little League game.

"To throw a good pitch like [Rivera] did, a sinker down and away, and for a guy to roll over it and find a hole after 4 1/2 hours," catcher Brian Schneider said, "is very disappointing."

The loss, Washington's second straight to the Marlins, left the visitor's clubhouse at Dolphin Stadium nearly as silent as the stadium had been much of the afternoon. There were perhaps 400 people in attendance. Players seemed both exasperated and exhausted by the fruitless performance that barely anyone was there to see.

"It looked, actually, like an extended spring game," Nationals Manager Manny Acta said about the crowd at the stadium, which seats 75,000 fans for football games. "It was so sad, but we still got to play the game. [Linden] just hit the ball perfectly -- the only place he could hit it in the infield and beat it out."

Though the Nationals secured the season series against the Marlins (10-8) with their one victory in three games here this week, they left still fighting to stay out of the basement of the National League East. They are just two games ahead of Florida in that race.

"They know, and we know, we're playing for something," Acta said. "We don't want to finish last and they don't want to finish last. It's no secret."

What began ignominiously with poor outings by both starting pitchers -- Washington's Joel Hanrahan and Florida's Byung Hyun Kim were charged with all but two of the game's runs -- evolved into a classic pitching duel between bullpens that, judging by the number of batting helmets and bats spiked to the turf, left hitters from both sides demoralized as the innings stretched on.

By game's end, 16 pitchers combined to strike out 33 batters. Twelve half-innings concluded with strikeouts.

Infuriated by his inning-ending strikeout in the second with the bases loaded, the Marlins' Jeremy Hermida tossed his bat so hard it busted into several pieces. Power hitter Miguel Cabrera flipped his bat into the air dramatically after striking out with one on in the eighth. Washington's Ryan Zimmerman put on a similar display after whiffing with two on in the sixth, and Ryan Langerhans tossed his equipment after fanning to end the 10th.

With a man in scoring position in the bottom of that inning, Dan Uggla struck out swinging, too.

"It was a long day," said Ryan Church, who hit a fifth-inning home run before being replaced in center field by Nook Logan. And "it was an odd day. . . . It was so frigging hot. It was miserable out there."

Temperatures reached the low 90s with high humidity. Though five Washington relievers combined to allow no runs and only two base runners from the seventh inning through the 11th, the Nationals never recovered from Hanrahan's early collapse. After escaping two bases-loaded jams early, he faltered. In the third inning, he allowed a leadoff single to Cabrera, then surrendered two-run home run with two outs to catcher Miguel Olivo.

In just 3 1/3 innings, Hanrahan gave up three runs, walked six and allowed six hits. Even worse, he threw 104 pitches, nearly a full game's worth.

"It was a very disappointing effort," he said. "I'm still working on things."

Kim, meantime, might have put forth one of the least effective 10-strikeout performances in baseball history. When he wasn't dominating the Nationals, he was putting them on base. He gave up seven hits and walked four in 5 2/3 innings, including back-to-back home runs in the fifth to Church and Wily Mo Pe?a.

That gave Washington a 4-3 lead that lasted until the bottom of the sixth, when Hermida homered off Jonathan Albaladejo to produce the tie that would stretch into extra innings.

"The end was disappointing," Schneider said. "To have that happen, it's hard."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/12/AR2007091201874.html


Wow, that's really really bad.

Matt700wlw
09-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Baseball needs to move them.

That city isn't deserving of a baseball team.

RBA
09-13-2007, 02:28 PM
Fresno? El Paso could bring in more than 400.

RedLegSuperStar
09-13-2007, 02:28 PM
Ouch..

cumberlandreds
09-13-2007, 02:33 PM
This is a franchise that has won two WS in the last decade and they still can't do any better than that. MLB really should either contract or move them on to another city.

oneupper
09-13-2007, 02:44 PM
Have any of you been to Dolphin Stadium?

I don't blame anyone for not going to a businessman's special, to a place where are no businesses for miles around.

Afternoon game in early September...ouch. Believe me, you don't want to be outside.

Heath
09-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Have any of you been to Dolphin Stadium?

I don't blame anyone for not going to a businessman's special, to a place where are no businesses for miles around.

Afternoon game in early September...ouch. Believe me, you don't want to be outside.

I'm sorry one-upper, but that team needs to move or just fold.

And in this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised to see more teams fold.

Chip R
09-13-2007, 03:03 PM
Paid attendance was 10K.

M2
09-13-2007, 03:07 PM
The Marlins have finished last or next to last in NL attendance every season since 1999 with the exception of 2004 (the year after they won the World Series) when they finished 14th of 16. IIRC, there was also some nonsense about the Marlins being allowed to count unpaid attendance so they could rank ahead of the Expos back in 2003.

It's a shame because 2003-2006 was easily the best run in franchise history.

Meanwhile Tampa Bay has finished dead last in the AL in attendance seven years running. I know the stadiums aren't supposed to be such great shakes and the teams have been pretty bad most seasons, but it's an open question as to whether major league baseball can thrive in Florida. Perhaps it's a case of there being enough minor league, spring training, college and high school ball to satisfy the baseball fan appetite.

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 03:20 PM
There needs to be one Florida team, play 1/3 of the games in Miami, Tampa and Orlando

The Marlins need to be moved, the players union will never allow contraction or a team to fold.

MartyFan
09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
The Diamondbacks might have something to say about Phoenix ;)

DOH! Major brainfreeze...I have no idea what I wasn't thinking.

Rojo
09-13-2007, 03:25 PM
There needs to be one Florida team, play 1/3 of the games in Miami, Tampa and Orlando

One team for three cities = no fans.

I think they need to cater to the demographic, offer early bird dinners, low-salt snacks, defibulator give-aways.

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 03:27 PM
One team for three cities = no fans.

No fans already, try and make it an event.

Of course a GOOD team would really help

George Anderson
09-13-2007, 03:28 PM
DOH! Major brainfreeze...I have no idea what I wasn't thinking.

Maybe you were thinking Phoenix, New York. ;)

CaiGuy
09-13-2007, 03:35 PM
The Diamondbacks might have something to say about Phoenix ;)

But they are the ARIZONA Diamondbacks, not Phoenix;)

Highlifeman21
09-13-2007, 04:10 PM
Maybe they should just merge the rosters of Tampa and Florida.

They should also merge the rosters of KC and some other team.

Like the Twins.

oneupper
09-13-2007, 04:13 PM
Where does it say the Marlins are losing money?

If they're not...not such a large incentive to move and much less to fold.

The owners will grind it out and hope he gets lucky (stadium deal).

registerthis
09-13-2007, 04:25 PM
I attended a wedding last weekend that had more people than that.

Food was better too.

RFS62
09-13-2007, 04:27 PM
Ever been to Pro Player Stadium, located in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the afternoon, with 90+ degree temperatures, 80% + humidity, a forecast of thunderstorms, and two lousy teams to watch?

Apparently not many people have.

registerthis
09-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Where does it say the Marlins are losing money?

Well, with a payroll of about 20 bucks, they're probably not losing much money.

But it would be in MLB's best interest to move the team from there. They've never drawn well, even when the team was among the best in the NL. And, criminy, RFK stadium is a cracking concrete donut with less ambiance than a freeway underpass, and the crappy Nats still draw about 20k per game.

RANDY IN INDY
09-13-2007, 04:32 PM
I'd love to see them in Charlotte.:D

StillFunkyB
09-13-2007, 04:34 PM
Ever been to Pro Player Stadium, located in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the afternoon, with 90+ degree temperatures, 80% + humidity, a forecast of thunderstorms, and two lousy teams to watch?

Apparently not many people have.

Yeah... the downpour started as I was driving across alligator alley from Naples. It was sunny by the time I got there, and had cooled off a bit. Stadium feels small even with 9000 there.

They need to move that team.

Johnny Footstool
09-13-2007, 04:37 PM
I think they need to cater to the demographic, offer early bird dinners, low-salt snacks, defibulator give-aways.

Half-off coupons to Furr's Cafeteria.

Matlock bobbleheads.

"No Whippersnappers" seating sections.

JaxRed
09-13-2007, 04:42 PM
There needs to be one Florida team, play 1/3 of the games in Miami, Tampa and Orlando.

Good ideal just not bold enough......

Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville......

Chip R
09-13-2007, 04:54 PM
Ever been to Pro Player Stadium, located in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the afternoon, with 90+ degree temperatures, 80% + humidity, a forecast of thunderstorms, and two lousy teams to watch?

Apparently not many people have.


I think you're just waiting till they offer this promotion. :evil:


I think they need to cater to the demographic, offer early bird dinners, low-salt snacks, defibulator give-aways.

RBA
09-13-2007, 04:55 PM
Good ideal just not bold enough......

Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville......

and Havana. :D

cincinnati chili
09-13-2007, 05:33 PM
I'd be curious to see what attendance would be like in an air-conditioned environment. In the first year of the franchise, their attendance was quite good.

People don't want to drive in from the suburbs when there might be prolonged rain delays (common in Florida) and the heat is miserable.

I wouldn't necessarily call them bad fans. I love baseball, but having worked in the Gulf Coast league, it's no fun to watch in the heat.

Of course, I'm someone who thought that MLB should have more actively courted Quebec ownership and kept a team in Montreal.

M2
09-13-2007, 05:46 PM
Of course, I'm someone who thought that MLB should have more actively courted Quebec ownership and kept a team in Montreal.

Kind of odd how teams owned by Jeff Loria struggle to draw fans, isn't it?

registerthis
09-13-2007, 05:55 PM
Kind of odd how teams owned by Jeff Loria struggle to draw fans, isn't it?

Are you questionning his merit as an upstanding member of the quebecois?

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 05:57 PM
Maybe they should just merge the rosters of Tampa and Florida.

They should also merge the rosters of KC and some other team.

Like the Twins.

I like the plan, but again the players will never allow jobs to go away.

KronoRed
09-13-2007, 05:57 PM
Good ideal just not bold enough......

Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville......

All we need are some games in the panhandle :thumbup:

Ltlabner
09-13-2007, 05:59 PM
My father (and it's probably not a novel idea) suggested just eliminating both of the Flordia teams and (somehow) finding a way to redistribute the players amoungst the rest of both leagues.

It would likely be a mess to develop a system to distribute the players fairly and not burden the new team with a contract they wern't expecting.

But it made for interesting pregame dinner conversation.

paintmered
09-13-2007, 06:42 PM
My father (and it's probably not a novel idea) suggested just eliminating both of the Flordia teams and (somehow) finding a way to redistribute the players amoungst the rest of both leagues.

It would likely be a mess to develop a system to distribute the players fairly and not burden the new team with a contract they wern't expecting.

But it made for interesting pregame dinner conversation.

RZ barked up this tree years ago. I believe the story ended with the Reds drafting Ramon Vasquez to be their ace for the next 20 years.

The only part of it that ended up true is the Expos cease to exist today.

paintmered
09-13-2007, 06:45 PM
All we need are some games in the panhandle :thumbup:

I can see it now....

And the Tallahassee Tilapia take the field!!

RedsManRick
09-13-2007, 06:46 PM
What's Epcot Center being used for these days? If the locals won't go, maybe tourists will... Kissammee Mousekateers anyone?

RBA
09-13-2007, 07:44 PM
I'll like a team in Vegas attached to a Casino with poker and digital slot machines at ever seat. Also cocktail and Keno girls roaming the stands. Those hoping for the end of days, that'll be your sign.

westofyou
09-13-2007, 09:01 PM
Kind of odd how teams owned by Jeff Loria struggle to draw fans, isn't it?

Even odder is his involvement in the O's sale to Angelos and the driving of the franchise prices prior to the work stoppage in 1993. A art dealer Loria approached the O's sale in a bidding fashion, topping Angelo's by 100K at every round. This rankled Angelo's and he finally told his group of backers/partners that he wasn't going to lose the bid to Loria and he would bid anything to do this.

His purchase of the O's at the time was 24% more then threcent Dallas Cowboys sale, and was the largest franchise price in professional sports history. After that Loria got into the league via the Expos and the rest is history, mirrored by around the league skyrocketing worth and the utter failure of his teams to garnish local support.

Perhaps he's the Devil?

BTW this is a sample of the response that Angelo's received from his "camp" when he told them he wasn't going to be beat in the bidding. One of his partners, Bob Castellini told him "Whatever you want to do Peter, I'm with you."

Heath
09-13-2007, 10:03 PM
One team for three cities = no fans.

I think they need to cater to the demographic, offer early bird dinners, low-salt snacks, defibulator give-aways.

Don't forget the buy one get one free funeral at the local funeral parlor. :D

oregonred
09-13-2007, 11:54 PM
Ever been to Pro Player Stadium, located in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the afternoon, with 90+ degree temperatures, 80% + humidity, a forecast of thunderstorms, and two lousy teams to watch?

Apparently not many people have.

No kidding. I was surprised when I went to the Reds game a couple months back how isolated Pro Player was from, well anything but the Turnpike Exit. There weren't but 3000-4000 people at that game and at least a third were Reds fans. I wouldn't go to a summer afternoon game in Florida if you gave me a free ticket and parking.

The home teams in SE FLorida are the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Marlins in that precise order. Virtually no one up here in Palm Beach County cares about the Marlins in the least. For every Marlins hat or bumper sticker I will see at least 25 from each of the Yanks/Sox.

The three county area here has become much less seasonal over the last couple of decades, obviously much more foreign born and now trends closer to the rest of America in age demographics. Number of people available in the summer is not the issue. Interest in NL baseball, the local team, the nowheresville football stadium and the brutal summer heat are all barriers. Best case for this area is a team playing in a better stadium, with a retractable roof that could draw maybe 2M a year.

cincinnati chili
09-14-2007, 02:46 AM
My father (and it's probably not a novel idea) suggested just eliminating both of the Flordia teams and (somehow) finding a way to redistribute the players amoungst the rest of both leagues.

It would likely be a mess to develop a system to distribute the players fairly and not burden the new team with a contract they wern't expecting.

But it made for interesting pregame dinner conversation.

Contraction may happen at some point, but if it does it will only point out the miserable shortcomings of Commissioner Selig.

The game has thrived in many ways under his watch, but it could have also thrived in markets like Miami, Tampa/St.Pete, and Montreal if ownership had taken a principled stance with their local communities.

Guys like Huizenga, Loria and Namoli put such a bad taste in the mouths of their communities that I don't blame the citizens for staying away. In fact, I applaud them.

There's more available baseball talent than at any point in history. With the right leadership, MLB should be expanding rather than contracting.

camisadelgolf
09-14-2007, 04:04 AM
I think they should disband Tampa Bay's and Florida's teams and let the remaining 28 teams hold a draft. Even if you combine the attendance for their games, they're still doing worse than the Mariners.

Reds Fanatic
09-14-2007, 07:29 AM
This is a photo from that game. Unbelievable to see stands this empty for a major league game.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/09/12/PH2007091202876.jpg

Highlifeman21
09-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I like the plan, but again the players will never allow jobs to go away.

I feel that the competition committee should step in and assert themselves. Tampa has always been a AAA caliber ballclub. The Marlins, while having WS titles, have been poorly ran as an organization from the beginning. The Royals, since the mid 80s, have been a dismal organization. Lastly, Minnesota is turning its wheels in a status quo way in an evolving and emerging baseball economy. Somehow, they missed the train.

The MLBPA would have to realize that the only jobs lost would be those in the farm systems of those clubs, in the AAA and AA levels, as you could field competitive MLB teams if you merged 4 into 2, and then you'd have a trickle-down effect where your career minor leaguers would no longer have jobs, being replaced by the fringe MLB talent that are really AAAA type players.

M2
09-14-2007, 11:18 AM
Contraction may happen at some point, but if it does it will only point out the miserable shortcomings of Commissioner Selig.

The game has thrived in many ways under his watch, but it could have also thrived in markets like Miami, Tampa/St.Pete, and Montreal if ownership had taken a principled stance with their local communities.

Guys like Huizenga, Loria and Namoli put such a bad taste in the mouths of their communities that I don't blame the citizens for staying away. In fact, I applaud them.

There's more available baseball talent than at any point in history. With the right leadership, MLB should be expanding rather than contracting.

Great post. It is heartening to see fans in some cities not put up with the garbage some franchises are trying to to foist on them. I'd add that despite the Twins recent good run, people in Minnesota haven't flocked to the Metrodome to see the team. No doubt that has a lot to do with Carl Pohlad's fraudulent claim that he was moving the team to Charlotte, his constant attempts to bilk a new stadium out of the taxpayers and his regular cries of organizational poverty. People do catch on.

While I think baseball has got some unique problems in Florida (weather and a baseball-going population that's not major league oriented), certainly Miami and Tampa Bay are large cities that have proven successful for other professional sports. Montreal is a huge sportsfan town. It's more than the Canadiens. Their CFL franchise sells out every game. Grand Prix racing is huge up there. It stages a packed house men's tennis tournament. Olympic sports like swimming and rowing prove big draws up there and garner wall-to-wall coverage on television. Once upon a time Montreal was the home to one of the most successful AAA franchises and the Expos were one of the best draws in the game in the early 1980s. MLB has done a fine job of alienating fans in some places.

I've always wondered why a significant chunk of league revenues aren't pooled to fund ballpark construction and international development. Well, I guess "wondered" is the wrong word. I know why they don't do it, but I do find the game's unwillingness to invest in itself more than a bit disturbing.

registerthis
09-14-2007, 01:38 PM
This is a photo from that game. Unbelievable to see stands this empty for a major league game.

400 looks to be a gross overestimation, unless you're counting the grounds crew.

KronoRed
09-14-2007, 01:55 PM
One thing that photo demonstrates is the grounds crew hides the football field well :clap:

KronoRed
09-14-2007, 01:58 PM
I feel that the competition committee should step in and assert themselves. Tampa has always been a AAA caliber ballclub. The Marlins, while having WS titles, have been poorly ran as an organization from the beginning. The Royals, since the mid 80s, have been a dismal organization. Lastly, Minnesota is turning its wheels in a status quo way in an evolving and emerging baseball economy. Somehow, they missed the train.

The MLBPA would have to realize that the only jobs lost would be those in the farm systems of those clubs, in the AAA and AA levels, as you could field competitive MLB teams if you merged 4 into 2, and then you'd have a trickle-down effect where your career minor leaguers would no longer have jobs, being replaced by the fringe MLB talent that are really AAAA type players.

But..it would be 50 guys out of major league work, and so on down the line, less players, less money for the union blah blah blah.

Also, the Rays and Royals have long stadium leases and the Twins are breaking ground on a new place, I see lawsuits galore.

I was fully with Bud on contraction, he just didn't thick it through enough, if he had picked the Expos and D-rays and moved the Marlins to Tampa he might just have gotten away with it..ah well.

oregonred
09-14-2007, 02:01 PM
Funny thing is the paid attendance was announced at 10,000... There had to be more people working the grounds, working the concessions, cleaning the restroons and working the parking areas then people that actually made it into the park to watch the game.

I would not recommend buying a hot dog at the football games at Dolphin Stadium this weekend. Might be a few days old...

cumberlandreds
09-14-2007, 02:09 PM
400 looks to be a gross overestimation, unless you're counting the grounds crew.

That's what I thought too. Maybe 100?

M2
09-14-2007, 02:19 PM
But..it would be 50 guys out of major league work, and so on down the line, less players, less money for the union blah blah blah.

Also, the Rays and Royals have long stadium leases and the Twins are breaking ground on a new place, I see lawsuits galore.

I was fully with Bud on contraction, he just didn't thick it through enough, if he had picked the Expos and D-rays and moved the Marlins to Tampa he might just have gotten away with it..ah well.

IMO, contraction was a negotiating ploy for the owners. They basically threatened to cut off their nose to spite their face. While I'm sure they were crazy enough to have done it (because they seem to have a thing for bad ideas), it was spawned to create another front in the CBA negotiations. It turned out to be a huge dud in the end. It alienated fans in Montreal and Minnesota, which cost the league money. An arbiter determined that the league couldn't fold two teams and then distribute the players unilaterally, which then forced the league to scrap the idea (though the union provided the league enough cover to make it go away quietly).

It also acted as a diversion for the union to get pretty much what it wanted at the negotiating table. Anyone noticed what's happening to player salaries in recent years? Why, it would almost seem like the luxury tax is creating more bidders for a player's services while still allowing big money clubs to spend through the roof. IMO, the luxury tax is the biggest gotcha the owners have foisted upon themselves since arbitration. Unlike Marvin Miller, Don Fehr and Gene Orza probably have the good sense not to brag about how well it's all worked out for the players.

klw
09-14-2007, 02:37 PM
That's what I thought too. Maybe 100?

The rest were in the bathrooms.
Seriously J Loria should not be allowed to have a franchise. He did his best to alienate Montreal during his attempts to get public financing for a stadium and now has done the same in Florida. He may be the worst owner since that woman in Major League the movie.

cincinnati chili
09-14-2007, 02:50 PM
An arbiter determined that the league couldn't fold two teams and then distribute the players unilaterally, which then forced the league to scrap the idea (though the union provided the league enough cover to make it go away quietly).

This might be correct. I forget.

However, I do know that at the end of the current CBA, the union cannot claim that contraction is an unfair labor practice. The unioin bargained that right away in this CBA.

So if MLB is un-visionary enough to contract, it can do so with significantly less resistance than the last go-round of collective bargaining.

Great point about Minneapolis/St. Paul showing the same civic fortitude shown in Montreal, Miami, and Tampa/St. Pete.

Again, we shouldn't criticize these people, but applaud them.

I'll also applaud Raleigh/Durham and other potential markets that refused to build a stadium to court an MLB team.

The economics of contraction make sense, assuming there is no marketing backlash (classic monopolist ploy: reduce output, create further scarcity, raise prices). The problem is there WILL be a marketing/perception backlash.

M2
09-14-2007, 03:27 PM
This might be correct. I forget.

However, I do know that at the end of the current CBA, the union cannot claim that contraction is an unfair labor practice. The unioin bargained that right away in this CBA.

And in exchange the league bargained away the right to distribute the players without union approval if it contracted. I believe MLB also have to give something like a year's notice if it wants to contract a team. That's the cover I was talking about. The union essentially called their bluff. MLB now can't use contraction as a negotiating ploy, but if it tries to go that route it will take massive PR hit (per the notice requirement) and then the union will be able to control the method of player redistribution. Needless to say, contraction's pretty much dead and buried.


The economics of contraction make sense, assuming there is no marketing backlash (classic monopolist ploy: reduce output, create further scarcity, raise prices). The problem is there WILL be a marketing/perception backlash.

Exactly, and a huge one at that.

JaxRed
09-14-2007, 03:33 PM
There's a market waiting in Vegas whenever they want...

BCubb2003
09-14-2007, 03:35 PM
The conditions at the stadium in Miami always remind me: Football fans will put up with anything. Is watching football in September in Miami as miserable as watching baseball?

Chip R
09-14-2007, 03:36 PM
There's a market waiting in Vegas whenever they want...


There are a lot of markets waiting but are they viable options? If they moved the Fish to Vegas, are they going to do any better or is it going to be a disaster?

JaxRed
09-14-2007, 03:39 PM
I think it would do great....

M2
09-14-2007, 03:44 PM
I think it would do great....

Me too. It would be different, but ultimately I think it would be successful.

KronoRed
09-14-2007, 04:08 PM
Baseball the first major sport into gambling city USA? pigs will fly first.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Who is going to go to games there? Everybody works nights and those who don't sleep.

JaxRed
09-14-2007, 04:34 PM
I think tons of people will combine a trip to see their team while gambling.... "Ohhh, we'll watch the Cubs (Cards, Astros, Mets) and then hit the Casino's after"

RedsManRick
09-14-2007, 04:48 PM
The conditions at the stadium in Miami always remind me: Football fans will put up with anything. Is watching football in September in Miami as miserable as watching baseball?

There are only 8 Dolphin games in Miami every year. You can put up with the weather for 3 hours for an "event". Even if there's a chance for rain, what are the chances you'll be free on one of the other 8 Sundays and will be able to get a ticket?

Baseball suffers from the fact that no single game really matters all that much and there are lots of opportunities to go.

I could go to 3 baseball games this summer and that would be the equivalent of leaving in the middle of the 2nd quarter of the only football game I attended.

Baseball games are going to the movies. Football games are going to the theater.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 05:08 PM
I think tons of people will combine a trip to see their team while gambling.... "Ohhh, we'll watch the Cubs (Cards, Astros, Mets) and then hit the Casino's after"


Cubs fans might. But they are deluded. Most everyone else is there for the gambling and you can't depend on tourists to fill a ballpark. You have to have a base that is going to come out night after night. They can do all the studies they want and say, "Well, we project to have a base of at least 20,000 per night." but I'm sure the Marlins did their own study too.

Hoosier Red
09-14-2007, 06:20 PM
I think any plan that includes "Visting teams' fans" will make this part of their trip is bound for failure.

M2
09-14-2007, 07:13 PM
Who is going to go to games there? Everybody works nights and those who don't sleep.

They'd probably need to take a completely different approach to game scheduling and promotions. More early games for instance. I don't know if there's a potentially large family draw in Vegas or not (the population is booming and supposedly the city invests heavily in its school system), but if not it would free the club up for a "what happens in the Vegas ballpark stays in the Vegas ballpark" atmosphere. Either way, I'd say an extra deck of luxury boxes, all fitted with one-way glass, would be a must.

Rojo
09-14-2007, 07:17 PM
The best thing for baseball would be to move them to New York.

oregonred
09-14-2007, 09:24 PM
The best thing for baseball would be to move them to New York.

Just change the name of the franchise and keep them in the area. That way more people would go and the merchandise would go through the roof. The "New York Marlins of the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA"

For those not familiar with the three county area here -- SE Florida is essentially New York with a heavy mix of Havana, a bit of Port Au Prince, some Caracas and a few other warm weather seeking stragglers from other native areas of the United States.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 10:08 PM
For those not familiar with the three county area here -- SE Florida is essentially New York with a heavy mix of Havana, a bit of Port Au Prince, some Caracas and a few other warm weather seeking stragglers from other native areas of the United States.


I don't want to seem like I'm stereotyping but that seems like a baseball loving population to me.

oregonred
09-15-2007, 12:43 AM
I don't want to seem like I'm stereotyping but that seems like a baseball loving population to me.

You'd think on paper it would work, but New Yorkers only care if the Yankees or Mets are in town. Hence changing the name from Florida Marlins to NY Marlins.

Haiti has zero association with baseball. Cubans for some reason don't seem to care about the Marlins or MLB all that much and Venzuelans are about the only population of the large South American regional mix (heavy Colombian, Brazilian influx) that has a baseball heritage.

And relying on Northern transplants with favorite teams other then the local one is a bad business model (hence the Las Vegas problem highlighted above). Add in the beach and the celebrity/entertainment factor and both Vegas and Miami have lots of other sports of a different sort competition.

IMO, Portland and Charlotte are the two best potential markets underserved by MLB and a third contender isn't even close.

KronoRed
09-15-2007, 12:48 AM
Move em to Portland, move them to the NL west and throw the Pirates or Astros in the east.

When the D-rays inevitably move let them have Charlotte :D

SandyD
09-15-2007, 12:50 PM
The Zephyrs have at least two day games a year that are "DARE" games. They bring in school kids, and pass out "anti-drug" literature and stuff. Those are, of course, in the spring.

In September, bring in kids as a field trip. Start the game at 11am, get sponsors to donate backpacks with school supplies, etc, child advocacy organizations to sponsor tickets, with the marlins matching tickets purchased or something. Quizzes between innings or something. May not get a sell out, but you'd get more than a few hundred.

And maybe build some good will within the community.

Rojo
09-15-2007, 04:17 PM
Just change the name of the franchise and keep them in the area. That way more people would go and the merchandise would go through the roof. The "New York Marlins of the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA"

For those not familiar with the three county area here -- SE Florida is essentially New York with a heavy mix of Havana, a bit of Port Au Prince, some Caracas and a few other warm weather seeking stragglers from other native areas of the United States.

New York is underrepresented by MLB. That's why the Yankees and, to a lesser extent, the Mets can bid up player salaries. Plunk a team into Newark and draw down some of that Yankee lucre.

pedro
09-15-2007, 04:42 PM
New York is underrepresented by MLB. That's why the Yankees and, to a lesser extent, the Mets can bid up player salaries. Plunk a team into Newark and draw down some of that Yankee lucre.

You've never been to Newark I take it?

TMBS, a team somewhere in northern NJ probably would do quite well.

Rojo
09-16-2007, 06:07 PM
I've been but, yes, Northern New Jersey's the idea or Long Island (might be Mets territory) or, better yet, Connecticut! The Red Sox-Yankee rivalry is the machine of salary of escalation. A team in CT would cut into both of them.

cincinnati chili
09-16-2007, 10:48 PM
You've never been to Newark I take it?

TMBS, a team somewhere in northern NJ probably would do quite well.

I'm not a big fan of Newark. But my mom lives in Essex County, so I'm quite familiar with it.

While it's not charming, it wouldn't surprise me if the crime rate on the Newark waterfront (where they'd presumably put a stadium) is substantially safer than the South Bronx neighborhood around Yankee Stadium.

I've never been to Oakland, but I've heard that neighborhood's nothing special either. We can probably make a pretty long list.

I'd like to see MLB expand to 32 teams, and metro NYC is a great place to do it.

But considering all the stuff we here about the lost art of pitching and other nonsense, we instead are in an atmosphere calling for contraction.

BCubb2003
09-16-2007, 11:39 PM
But considering all the stuff we here about the lost art of pitching and other nonsense, we instead are in an atmosphere calling for contraction.

I've always wondered why expansion watered down only the pitching, and not the hitting.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2007, 01:44 AM
I've always wondered why expansion watered down only the pitching, and not the hitting.

The best athletes in the history of Earth are playing baseball right now. And despite competition from other sports, the planet has a greater supply of baseball players than ever before.

The reason we have 30 major league teams, rather than 32 or more, has to do with a legalized system of monopolist behavior, not a lack of talented pitching.

paulrichjr
09-17-2007, 04:17 PM
New York is underrepresented by MLB. That's why the Yankees and, to a lesser extent, the Mets can bid up player salaries. Plunk a team into Newark and draw down some of that Yankee lucre.

Maybe but it could also add one more team with high salaries to worry about. 6 teams in the area might dent the others a lot and bring down some revenue from the Mets and Yanks but 1 team MIGHT not have an effect and instead might add one more team with high salaries bidding up free agents.

NJReds
09-17-2007, 04:53 PM
I'd like to see MLB expand to 32 teams, and metro NYC is a great place to do it.


The Yankees and Mets will combine to draw about 7.5 million fans this year. However, I don't think we need another major league team in the immediate area. You could put one in Northern New Jersey, perhaps. I think that was considered briefly when the Expos were looking for a home.

I doubt Connecticut would support a new team. Most of the state supports Boston. The southern part of the state is only about 40 minutes from Yankee stadium.

I bet that there are many more deserving regions that don't have a baseball team where you could expand.

NJReds
09-17-2007, 04:59 PM
Maybe but it could also add one more team with high salaries to worry about. 6 teams in the area might dent the others a lot and bring down some revenue from the Mets and Yanks but 1 team MIGHT not have an effect and instead might add one more team with high salaries bidding up free agents.

The Giants gave Zito an insane contract last year. (and outbid the Mets) ARod got his money (initially) from a maverick owner - Tom Hicks. JD Drew got more than he's worth from Boston. The Yankees wouldn't give Milton near the money the Reds threw at him.

It's oversimplistic to blame the Yankees and Mets for bidding up salaries.

KronoRed
09-17-2007, 05:50 PM
New York is underrepresented by MLB. That's why the Yankees and, to a lesser extent, the Mets can bid up player salaries. Plunk a team into Newark and draw down some of that Yankee lucre.

Interesting article about such a plan
http://www.nysun.com/article/62559

Rojo
09-17-2007, 08:13 PM
It's oversimplistic to blame the Yankees and Mets for bidding up salaries.

I blame the Yankees and Red Sox. Sure there are other free-spenders around but the rivalry is the main drive train. Rembember how Baltimore spent much more freely before the Nats moved next door?

westofyou
12-14-2007, 12:26 PM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/gutted-fish/


I feel for Marlins fans. They do not deserve this greedy mismanagement of their team. They are on the short list (Samson doubly so) of the worst owners ever to be inflicted on professional sports. They are Bill Wirtz; they are Charles Comiskey; they are the Bidwell family; they are the polyps in the bowels of how major league baseball does business.

I take that last line back.

They are no longer polyps; they are now cancers and should be treated accordingly.

Highlifeman21
12-14-2007, 12:42 PM
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/gutted-fish/

That reeks of the suggestion of contraction.

M2
12-14-2007, 12:50 PM
If you were a South Florida politician, say the mayor of Miami, why not gather everyone involved on the governmental side and go straight to Bud Selig to deliver the following message: We're not cutting any deals as long as Loria and Samson own the club.

The metro area has 5.4 million people and it's growing. It sounds like the pols are willing to work out a deal, but Loria/Samson are impossible to deal with (which we already knew). So take them out. MLB needs Miami more than Miami needs MLB. Inform the league that it needs to fix the ownership problem or nothing's getting done.

Highlifeman21
12-14-2007, 12:53 PM
If you were a South Florida politician, say the mayor of Miami, why not gather everyone involved on the governmental side and go straight to Bud Selig to deliver the following message: We're not cutting any deals as long as Loria and Samson own the club.

The metro area has 5.4 million people and it's growing. It sounds like the pols are willing to work out a deal, but Loria/Samson are impossible to deal with (which we already knew). So take them out. MLB needs Miami more than Miami needs MLB. Inform the league that it needs to fix the ownership problem or nothing's getting done.

The fact that Loria continues to be an owner of an MLB franchise speaks volumes of MLB's inability to police itself, and think of its best interests.

KronoRed
12-14-2007, 12:57 PM
Of course in other news Miami-Dade county is bending over back wards and handing the team millions of more dollars to keep their "major league" team in town.
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/341240.html

KronoRed
12-14-2007, 12:58 PM
The fact that Loria continues to be an owner of an MLB franchise speaks volumes of MLB's inability to police itself, and think of its best interests.

Loria is a big Bud supporter, he also gives Bud his new team to use the old Expos excuse on "look at this poor team, they need a new stadium paid for by the taxpayers"

M2
12-14-2007, 01:03 PM
Loria is a big Bud supporter, he also gives Bud his new team to use the old Expos excuse on "look at this poor team, they need a new stadium paid for by the taxpayers"

Make Selig choose. Loria or one of the largest markets in the U.S. Tell him he can't have both.

KronoRed
12-14-2007, 01:07 PM
Make Selig choose. Loria or one of the largest markets in the U.S. Tell him he can't have both.

Politicians stand up and challenge big money? never ;)

pahster
12-14-2007, 01:14 PM
Politicians stand up and challenge big money? never ;)

The first rule of politics: Always take the money.

top6
12-14-2007, 01:36 PM
I feel for Marlins fans
Yeah, it must be rough winning 2 world series in 15 years of existence.

westofyou
12-16-2007, 09:57 AM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/12/16/a1b_marlins_1216.html


The Marlins may have chosen the wrong weekend to open Dolphin Stadium for their annual "Select A Seat" day. Fewer than 50 fans showed up in the first two hours of a four-hour event Saturday to pick out their season tickets for next season.

That they would have a chance to meet manager Fredi Gonzalez and pitcher Scott Olsen apparently did not offset the crush of last-minute shopping. Or the fact that the team again sold off its top talent to cut salary, trading its two most recognizable players and best talents to Detroit for a plethora of prospects.

Few, it seemed, were in the mood for stuffing their stockings with Marlins tickets.

"We're thinking about it," said Joe Schillan of Fort Lauderdale, perusing ticket prices with his girlfriend Cori Pasinetti of Boca Raton. "This is Montreal. They develop players for other teams."

Gonzalez accepted this as part of the deal when he signed on for his first shot at managing a major league club. After finishing 71-91 in his first season as the Marlins' manager, he looks ahead to a spring training without one of baseball's best hitters, Miguel Cabrera, and his top pitcher, All-Star left-hander Dontrelle Willis.

"I knew this could happen not only this year, but back when I interviewed for the position the last time in '05," Gonzalez said.

Gonzalez was to have lunch with everyone who purchased season tickets on Saturday, but the turnout provided for a potentially lonely meal. By the time Olsen arrived after noon, a line of about 20 fans had formed for the young pitcher's autograph. But few bought season tickets.

Gonzalez knows the amount of talent he's given to work with depends largely on a stadium deal, which, in the past week, has come closer to reality. He said he has allowed himself to dream about what a retractable roof stadium built on the site of the Orange Bowl might mean for a general manager assembling a contender.

"You start thinking, 'We could add a little payroll,''" Gonzalez said. "When you look at what Larry (Beinfest) can do with a $25 million payroll, imagine what he could do with $50 to 60 million."

As with each of the Marlins' trades under current management, the Marlins got young talent in return.

Pitcher Andrew Miller could be a starter immediately, and outfielder Cameron Maybin will be given a chance to compete for the job in center field. This was not lost on the fans.

"If you're going to save that money, you have to put that back into the team or developing players," Schillan, the fan, said.

But replacing those personalities will not be as easy in the clubhouse, Olsen said.

Willis was the calming force who remained positive even while he lost nine straight decisions in the middle of last year. This year, they will need to find a stopper when things get out of hand.

"We have to find the guy that, if we've lost four straight, we can toss the ball to and say, 'Go get us out of it,''" Olsen said. "I'd like it to be me."

Olsen lost eight of his last 10 decisions in 2007 after being arrested for DUI and fighting with police. But, he says he has completed a program to avoid a felony conviction, and he and team President David Samson, who said he would not welcome a convicted felon on this team, have "turned over a new leaf. Nobody wants a trouble-maker."

"It can't get any worse than (last year)," Olsen said. "With all the things that happened last year, the off-the-field stuff, it's made me stronger mentally. You're always going to have your critics, but all you can do is win to shut them up."

KronoRed
12-16-2007, 01:46 PM
Yeah, it must be rough winning 2 world series in 15 years of existence.

Poor Expos didn't even get that