PDA

View Full Version : Closer in 2008?



Krusty
09-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Just wondering who would you like to see closing Reds games in 2008?

It would be asking alot to expect Weathers to be the closer again and repeat the numbers he put up this season. On the otherhand, Eddie Guardado might be worth a minor league invitation considering it looks like he isn't fully recovered this offseason.

Ideally if the Reds acquired a closer, they could push Burton and Weathers back in setup roles. Pitchers like Bray, Majewski, Coutlangus and McBeth would actually have to show they deserve middle relief roles instead of being thrown out there because of neccesity. At the same time the Reds could cut their losses with pitchers like Mike Stanton, who are past their prime.

Opinions?

flyer85
09-14-2007, 01:50 PM
Just wondering who would you like to see closing Reds games in 2008?Weathers.

cumberlandreds
09-14-2007, 01:56 PM
I would like to see them give Burton a chance. Maybe even give him a shot in a couple of games here at the end. I think the Reds got really lucky with Weathers this season. I did not expect this at all from him and I don't think we can expect it again next season.

flyer85
09-14-2007, 01:59 PM
I would like to see them give Burton a chance. the problem is the Reds are woefully short in the pen. Swapping Burton/Weathers does nothing to solve the overall problem. I would prefer another closer to Weathers(like Wuertz) but for the time being he has the inside track going to 2008.

KronoRed
09-14-2007, 01:59 PM
I'd toss Weathers out there and wait to see if A) we even need to bother with a closer, teams 10 games out really don't and B) if Weathers can still do the job.

RedsManRick
09-14-2007, 02:01 PM
Weathers will have the job and it won't be up for debate to start, but I don't think he'll have an iron grip on it, particularly once we fall out of the race (err if....).

Burton has to be first in line at this point. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Burton's chair was filled by Todd Coffey at this time last year...

I actually like having Weathers as the "closer" so long as you aren't paying him like he's Joe Nathan. He's reliable enough, doesn't walk too many guys, can go 6 outs if need-be, and allows you to use your power arms in high leverage situations. I'd much rather have Burton/Bray come in to put out a fire in the 7th than holding down a 2 run lead with the bases empty in the 9th.

flyer85
09-14-2007, 02:02 PM
I actually like having Weathers as the "closer" so long as you aren't paying him like he's Joe Nathan.If the Indians can win with Borowski, Weathers won't hold the Reds back.

Kc61
09-14-2007, 02:38 PM
No reason to change closers unless Weathers faulters. The key question is who they have in reserve for the day Weathers can't close. Right now, the answer is pretty obvious. But no reason to change the Burton/Weathers combo at this point.

Johnny Footstool
09-14-2007, 02:42 PM
The Reds should be looking to upgrade the bullpen with real talent. A talented closer would make the rest of the bullpen that much better (Burton in the 7th, Weathers in the 8th, laser-rocket-arm in the 9th).

Kc61
09-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Here's how I envision the 2008 pen. Four late inning relievers. Weathers, Burton, Bray, and a new guy -- let's call him laser-rocket-arm. Whether he closes or not depends on how good he is. Righty.

Two fifth and sixth inning guys. Coutlangus is one. The other is a righty. Maybe Majewski (assuming his problems have really been recovery from injury). Maybe Salmon. Or another new guy.

And a long man. Salmon was stretched out late in the year, maybe him.

Coffey and Stanton get moved in the off-season.

McBeth, Pelland, Roenicke, Viola, Guevera all at AAA waiting for a shot. They don't begin in Cincy, which hopefully will cease being a tryout camp.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 03:01 PM
The Reds should be looking to upgrade the bullpen with real talent. A talented closer would make the rest of the bullpen that much better (Burton in the 7th, Weathers in the 8th, laser-rocket-arm in the 9th).


Super. Anyone in mind that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

camisadelgolf
09-14-2007, 03:48 PM
Super. Anyone in mind that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Armando Benitez might be available at a reasonable price. I think that's as close as it gets. :dunno:

Johnny Footstool
09-14-2007, 03:50 PM
Super. Anyone in mind that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

I'd like to see them go get someone like Michael Wuertz from the Cubs or Jon Rauch from the Nats, but I don't know what it would take to get them.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 04:15 PM
I'd like to see them go get someone like Michael Wuertz from the Cubs or Jon Rauch from the Nats, but I don't know what it would take to get them.


I think if Wuertz was any good, Lou would have him setting up or closing. As for Rauch, I think he's a work in progress. I don't think sticking either of them in the closer's spot is going to improve the situation. I'd rather see Bray or Burton get the chance before either of those guys.

Now if you're looking for someone who throws hard, Gagne is available but I'm sure he'd be looking for some big money.

RedsManRick
09-14-2007, 05:02 PM
I think if Wuertz was any good, Lou would have him setting up or closing.

If that was his criteria, Marmol would be closing. Dude is filthy.

Johnny Footstool
09-14-2007, 05:04 PM
I think if Wuertz was any good, Lou would have him setting up or closing. As for Rauch, I think he's a work in progress. I don't think sticking either of them in the closer's spot is going to improve the situation. I'd rather see Bray or Burton get the chance before either of those guys.

Now if you're looking for someone who throws hard, Gagne is available but I'm sure he'd be looking for some big money.

Lou has 3 relievers ahead of Wuertz -- Dempster, Howry, and Marmol. That's why it might be easier to acquire him. And he's got a live arm -- his 9.51 K/9 is second only to Marmol on the Cubs' staff.

Rauch would be a sloppy second choice -- harder to get, and not as much potential.

Gagne would be too expensive for the Reds.

mth123
09-14-2007, 08:33 PM
Since the market is so thin for impact starters, I think that the Reds should target a closer who may no longer fit his team's budget, (Joe Nathan anyone?) and try to deal Weathers for a young arm or two. Weathers is coming off of a career year and has value in a thin market. He's aging and the Reds should cash in before he turns back into a pumpkin.

Patrick Bateman
09-14-2007, 08:47 PM
Wuertz is intriguing because of his high K ability. His control will dictate in how well he can reach his potential.

I steer clear of Rauch. His HUGE flyball tendencies would be a death sentence in GABP.

redsfan4445
09-14-2007, 09:10 PM
either Joe Nathan or Cordero of the Brewers who also is a free agent.

Matt700wlw
09-14-2007, 09:20 PM
either Joe Nathan or Cordero of the Brewers who also is a free agent.

That'd be nice.

Stormy/Bray - 7th

Burton (Bray could also if needed) - 8th

Cordero/Nathan - 9th

Patrick Bateman
09-14-2007, 09:29 PM
Signing a closer like that would be a mismanagement of assets. The Reds have so many holes, that spending the bulk of the available payroll budget on a guy that will only be pitching 1 inning at a time is a poor idea. Spening huge bucks on a closer would really be the cherry on top.

Lets focus on finding the ice cream first.

mth123
09-14-2007, 09:44 PM
Signing a closer like that would be a mismanagement of assets. The Reds have so many holes, that spending the bulk of the available payroll budget on a guy that will only be pitching 1 inning at a time is a poor idea. Spening huge bucks on a closer would really be the cherry on top.

Lets focus on finding the ice cream first.

Unless you think you can get two scoops by trading Weathers.

Chip R
09-14-2007, 10:19 PM
Wuertz is intriguing because of his high K ability. His control will dictate in how well he can reach his potential.

I steer clear of Rauch. His HUGE flyball tendencies would be a death sentence in GABP.


I'm not crazy about putting a guy in the closer's role who has control problems. Would Wuertz be a nice arm to get? We could do Wuertz ;) and having a guy like him in the pen would be good. But I'm not going to trust him in the closer's role until he can show some control.

I think Burton is the heir apparant as closer. Keep him in the setup role and see how he does and if he's dominating hitters, try to trade Weathers and move Burton in the closer's role. The closer has been the least of the problems this year.

Patrick Bateman
09-14-2007, 10:54 PM
I'm not crazy about putting a guy in the closer's role who has control problems. Would Wuertz be a nice arm to get? We could do Wuertz ;) and having a guy like him in the pen would be good. But I'm not going to trust him in the closer's role until he can show some control.

I think Burton is the heir apparant as closer. Keep him in the setup role and see how he does and if he's dominating hitters, try to trade Weathers and move Burton in the closer's role. The closer has been the least of the problems this year.

Wuertz in some respects is similar to Burton. Both are high K guys but have control problems. Now Burton has been better in that respect lately, while Wuertz is 28 and still having those problems.

I wouldn't expect Wuertz to suddenly become a control artist, but he'd be a fine guy to have around that could find his way in the mix for 7th to 9th inning duties. He has talent, I'm just not sure whether he is going to continue being just a set-up guy, rather than crossing the line to closer material. Either way, he's a step up,a nd at the right price is a fine target IMO.

GAC
09-15-2007, 08:53 AM
Since the market is so thin for impact starters, I think that the Reds should target a closer who may no longer fit his team's budget, (Joe Nathan anyone?) and try to deal Weathers for a young arm or two. Weathers is coming off of a career year and has value in a thin market. He's aging and the Reds should cash in before he turns back into a pumpkin.

While I agree that if we can get something out of Weathers in this lean market, and he is aging, I disagree with his "turning back into a pumpkin".

When was he ever a pumpkin? Over the course of the last 10 years he has put up some pretty decent numbers with an occasional "bump in the road"; but overall, not bad at all as someone coming out of the pen.

And in his three years with the Reds he has an ERA of 3.65 overall.

bucksfan2
09-15-2007, 09:03 AM
I try out both Bray and Burton. Both are young with a ton of talent. Weathers is a nice pitcher and has been very effective here but if you throw someone better and more talented as the closer then that move Weathers into a set up roll which in turn makes the pen a better pen.

Krusty
09-15-2007, 10:15 AM
Two guys to target.....Arizona's Tony Pena and Dodgers' John Broxton.

Both are setup men waiting to be closers.

oregonred
09-15-2007, 12:43 PM
And in his three years with the Reds he has an ERA of 3.65 overall.


That's almost legendary by 21st Century Reds franchise standards. Weathers is about the least of the Reds problems for 2008.

At least with Burton and Bray you have other options and can work on a transition plan to move one of them into a closer's role in late 2008 or 2009.

fearofpopvol1
09-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Signing a closer like that would be a mismanagement of assets. The Reds have so many holes, that spending the bulk of the available payroll budget on a guy that will only be pitching 1 inning at a time is a poor idea. Spening huge bucks on a closer would really be the cherry on top.

Lets focus on finding the ice cream first.

I'm going to have to agree. I think potentially, you could get 2 very good relievers for the price of 1 closer. I'd go with the former since they appear to be the ones that have problems holding leads.

Anyone else just still not sold on Bray yet? I'm hoping he puts it altogether because he definitely has talent, but put me down as "concerned."

mth123
09-15-2007, 02:51 PM
While I agree that if we can get something out of Weathers in this lean market, and he is aging, I disagree with his "turning back into a pumpkin".

When was he ever a pumpkin? Over the course of the last 10 years he has put up some pretty decent numbers with an occasional "bump in the road"; but overall, not bad at all as someone coming out of the pen.

And in his three years with the Reds he has an ERA of 3.65 overall.

IMO he was a pumpkin in 2006. He walked over 4 per 9 innings and gave up almost 1.5 HR/9. He ended up with a good ERA largely due to a BABIP of below .240. His FIP in 2006 was 5.43.

This year he has pitched very well. Even though his K Rate is down slightly, his much improved walk rate of 2.97/9 and HR rate of .5/9 are career lows that represent an excellent effort. I just don't think a guy having his career year at 37 will be able to repeat let alone improve on it. If he reverts to anything close to the pitcher he was in 2006, and does not benefit from the good fortune of a BABIP below .240 again, an ERA above 5 is very possible. Add the risk of normal age related decline that all players experience at some point, and I think it would be wise to look for a new top dog for the Reds pen.

Since no starters are out there to invest in, why not set the bullpen up for multiple years of reliability with a new top guy while trying to improve other areas of the staff by dealing a guy coming off a very good year and really does not appear to be a part of the long term future (if for no other reason than age)? If Weathers could be packaged with one of the younger question marks (say Majewski, Ramirez, McBeth, etc) and return a young starter who may be getting pricey or maybe a couple kids with with upside, I think it would be a wise way to improve the staff. The team would add years to its upcoming window of opportunity by replacing him with a guy who could be an asset through most of the cheap years of the younger core. This team needs arms. If Krivsky could sign a Nathan, for example, and then deal Weathers for a couple more arms they would come out ahead IMO.

Highlifeman21
09-15-2007, 05:28 PM
If the Indians can win with Borowski, Weathers won't hold the Reds back.

Agreed.

When we aren't contending in 2008, hopefully we'll be able to move David Weathers for a piece of the puzzle that is 2009 and forward.

Once/If Weathers is moved, then audition guys like Bray, Burton, and McBeth. I just don't see the Reds spending money on a big name, proven closer when they have other pressing issues/needs.

mth123
09-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Agreed.

When we aren't contending in 2008, hopefully we'll be able to move David Weathers for a piece of the puzzle that is 2009 and forward.

Once/If Weathers is moved, then audition guys like Bray, Burton, and McBeth. I just don't see the Reds spending money on a big name, proven closer when they have other pressing issues/needs.

Of course waiting means that Weathers could revert to 2006 form and be worthless. There is a lesson in Rheal Cormier and his league leading ERA in mid 2006 becoming worthless quickly. Oh and 2006 Mike Stanton had an ERA of 3.99. Not much market for him now either.

I say get while the getting is good.

redsrule2500
09-15-2007, 07:38 PM
Closers are so overrated.

Highlifeman21
09-16-2007, 07:13 AM
Of course waiting means that Weathers could revert to 2006 form and be worthless. There is a lesson in Rheal Cormier and his league leading ERA in mid 2006 becoming worthless quickly. Oh and 2006 Mike Stanton had an ERA of 3.99. Not much market for him now either.

I say get while the getting is good.

I'm surprised we didn't move Weathers this trading deadline.

Unfortunately I don't see the FO moving him during the offseason. If they do move him, then the FO is sending the message they don't think we are contenders (which we aren't), and I doubt the FO wants to admit failure in assembling a contender to this point. If they don't move him, then you're absolutely correct they are running the risk of having another Stanton/Mercker/Cormier on their hands.

mth123
09-16-2007, 10:04 AM
I'm surprised we didn't move Weathers this trading deadline.

Unfortunately I don't see the FO moving him during the offseason. If they do move him, then the FO is sending the message they don't think we are contenders (which we aren't), and I doubt the FO wants to admit failure in assembling a contender to this point. If they don't move him, then you're absolutely correct they are running the risk of having another Stanton/Mercker/Cormier on their hands.


You are probably right, but if this team insists on serving two masters (now and the future) as they have, then the market is right to make a move to help the future with no expense to the now. Closers are out there this year and one can be signed and it would leave the team with a settled pen for a longer term than just the one season. Weathers can be traded for other needed pieces (young starting pitcher(s) with some upside, long term SS, etc) that are not so available.

Spitball
09-16-2007, 11:19 PM
I am guilty of not reading all the responses here, but I believe there has been a logical changing of the closer philosophy in the last year or two. We are now seeing the reliable strike throwing Doug Jones and David Weathers type closing out games, while the bat missing hard throwers are entering games earlier when runners are on base to put out fires.

I like the philosophy. Why save your toughest relief pitcher for a ninth inning when there are often more important times in a game.

Johnny Footstool
09-17-2007, 12:32 AM
Closers are so overrated.

Yes, but quality bullpen arms aren't. I'd like to see the Reds get a guy like Wuertz on the cheap, even if he isn't assigned to close games. The Reds bullpen needs more strikeout pitchers.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2007, 02:07 AM
I'd like to see someone in the minors who's excelling as a starter, but is doing so on the strength of fewer than 3 pitches. Closers are made, not born. See Joba Chamberlain, minor league starter.

Why not give Cueto a whirl in the pen?

mth123
09-17-2007, 03:35 AM
I'd like to see someone in the minors who's excelling as a starter, but is doing so on the strength of fewer than 3 pitches. Closers are made, not born. See Joba Chamberlain, minor league starter.

Why not give Cueto a whirl in the pen?

I agree and think Cueto could be a Broxton/Zumaya type, but with the need for starters its hard to move him there. If the Reds could get a couple solid starters a move of Cueto or Bailey to the pen could be a real weapon out there.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2007, 03:40 AM
I agree and think Cueto could be a Broxton/Zumaya type, but with the need for starters its hard to move him there. If the Reds could get a couple solid starters a move of Cueto or Bailey to the pen could be a real weapon out there.

As I agree with you, I probably should qualify what I said. If the Reds assess next year that they can legitimately contend for the playoffs next year, but are short a bullpen arm or two, then I think such a move makes sense. Otherwise, "prize" arms should be allowed to start.

Jonathan Papelbon and Mariano Rivera would have remained starters if their teams weren't in pennant races and in desperate need.

Johnny Footstool
09-17-2007, 10:14 AM
I'd like to see someone in the minors who's excelling as a starter, but is doing so on the strength of fewer than 3 pitches. Closers are made, not born. See Joba Chamberlain, minor league starter.

Why not give Cueto a whirl in the pen?

Doesn't Cueto have enough quality pitches to stick in the majors as a starter, though?

Isn't there anyone in the minors with just 2 "plus" pitches who could be groomed to close?

lollipopcurve
09-17-2007, 10:21 AM
Isn't there anyone in the minors with just 2 "plus" pitches who could be groomed to close?

Watson has a good fastball and a wicked knuckle curve.