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View Full Version : I hope the "honeymoon" for Marvin Lewis is officially over!



George Foster
09-16-2007, 10:03 PM
He's a good man, and I respect him as a person, however the "window" for the Bengals to contend for a Super Bowl will close is a couple of years and Marvin Lewis has done nothing with improving this defense. IT'S HORRIBLE!!! We are one bad call (against the Ravens), from being 0-2.

If someone told you before the game that Palmer would have 6, count um' 6 TD passes and Rudi would rush for over 100 yards and the Bengals would lose to the Browns 5 days after they traded their starting QB, you would say that person was on drugs!
Britney Spears says hi!

I thought Marvin was this defensive "genius" that engineered the Ravens Super Bowl win with a 2nd rate QB that got released after the season was over..???

Who is in charge over their.....Is Marvin just a CEO....or has he lost all ability to coach? Is he to close to his other coaches and does not feel comfortable in firing the defensive C.? Either way it is a sign that maybe he is not all he is cracked up to be.

We have one of the best offensives in the NFL.....but if you have to score 52 points to beat the Browns....you have no chance in the NFL....NO chance...

WMR
09-16-2007, 10:14 PM
You're forgetting his boss is Mike Brown...

TeamSelig
09-16-2007, 11:06 PM
LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!

Uhm... sorry. Yeah, I'm starting to get a little tired of Marvin too. But I don't want to fire him after one ridiculous loss. If we make the playoffs, I might be okay with him. Who knows...

George Foster
09-16-2007, 11:21 PM
I don't want to fire him either, but he's on my double secret probation list.

The whole reason for the thread was to question his ability to monitor the defense and or make serious changes which he has not done over the past several off seasons.

I feel anybody could coach this offense....it's unbelievable, but when your special teams and defense is this bad it makes me question the ability of the head coach to put "the whole thing together."

Is Brown handcuffing him when it comes to off season free agents? I don't know....but the buck stops at the head coaches desk.

Dom Heffner
09-16-2007, 11:31 PM
The defensive coordinator needs to be let go. There isn't any question.

macro
09-16-2007, 11:34 PM
The losses of David Pollock and Odell Thurman have not helped one bit. I think the defense would be considerably better with those two guys in there. They knew they were taking a chance with Odell, and it didn't work out. The blame for that rests sqarely on Marvin's and/or soP's shoulders. The Pollock thing was just unfortunate.

That being said, stuff happens in the NFL...to every team...and they've had five years to put together some semblance of a defense and have failed miserably. Another 8-8 or worse this year and I'd think hard about giving Marvin the ax. That's only a good idea if you replace him with someone better, though. I despise Bill Cowher, but I'd take him. Who else is there out there that would be a certain upgrade?

Yachtzee
09-16-2007, 11:36 PM
I think Lewis needs to put up or shut up. Either dump Bresnahan and take the reigns himself for the rest of the season, or if he wants to continue to delegate D responsibilities to the coaches, find coaches who can fix it. I think there is talent on the D, but today's game showed an utter lack of preparation. Add to that the consistent failure to make adjustments at halftime and what seems like a refusal to adapt the scheme to fit the talent. Of course that last part may be coming from a higher power.
I don't know. I hate to be one of those guys who blames Mike Brown for everything from the team's losing past to world hunger, but I can't help but wonder if the failure to get players who fit the scheme falls on his shoulders. I can't help but wonder why Dick LeBeau could have such horrible Ds in his second tour with the Bengals, but then go right back to the Steelers and once again reclaim his guru status. I have a feeling Marvin Lewis will win a Super Bowl, with his next team.

macro
09-16-2007, 11:53 PM
He's been quiet and let Marvin be the face of the franchise for five years, but is soP still calling the shots on draft day? If so, he's still the problem, and no number of coaching changes is going to fix this. Chuck really needs to go, though, regardless.

Yachtzee
09-17-2007, 12:09 AM
He's been quiet and let Marvin be the face of the franchise for five years, but is soP still calling the shots on draft day? If so, he's still the problem, and no number of coaching changes is going to fix this. Chuck really needs to go, though, regardless.

When Marvin was hired, it seemed as though the party line was that Marvin was responsible for the draft and free agency. He told the FO who to get and the FO negotiated the salary. I'm speculating as to what I see as either a failure to adapt a scheme to the talent or a failure to get talent that fits the scheme. I was concerned when Mike Brown said in an interview during the offseason that some of the character issue players were his call that maybe he does have a hand in player personnel decisions. If that's the case, then he can't retire soon enough for my liking. I respect that he is loyal and kept the team in Cincinnati and all, but I really wish he would hand the reigns off to the next generation. His reign as GM is a series of first round busts with a sprinkling of all-world talent. It's like he hits it big with guys like Palmer, or completely whiffs. If Lewis fails as HC for the Bengals, I honestly don't see any coach worth having accepting the position until they can be 100% that Mike Brown is not running the team.

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 10:42 AM
It seems like the only thing Marvin Lewis has done above and beyond the coaches before him is that he acquired Carson Palmer. Put Akili Smith or David Klingler at the helm and this team is no better than the teams of the 90s.

They've also been terribly unlucky with this defense. Unable to contribute in yesterday's debacle was Thurman, Pollack, Joseph, Ahmad Brooks and Jeanty. That's a lot of talent and a lot of high draft picks. It's hard to improve a defense with that kind of luck.

gonelong
09-17-2007, 12:14 PM
It seems like the only thing Marvin Lewis has done above and beyond the coaches before him is that he acquired Carson Palmer. Put Akili Smith or David Klingler at the helm and this team is no better than the teams of the 90s.

The offensive line is a huge plus. Carson has more time on one play than Akili Smith or David Klingler got in many games. Palmer also has a much better receiving corp. Add that to the length of time most of these pieces have been in place together.


They've also been terribly unlucky with this defense. Unable to contribute in yesterday's debacle was Thurman, Pollack, Joseph, Ahmad Brooks and Jeanty. That's a lot of talent and a lot of high draft picks. It's hard to improve a defense with that kind of luck.

Agreed. I think the defense would be much further along with just Pollack and Thurman.

GL

CrackerJack
09-17-2007, 12:32 PM
It seems like the only thing Marvin Lewis has done above and beyond the coaches before him is that he acquired Carson Palmer. Put Akili Smith or David Klingler at the helm and this team is no better than the teams of the 90s.

They've also been terribly unlucky with this defense. Unable to contribute in yesterday's debacle was Thurman, Pollack, Joseph, Ahmad Brooks and Jeanty. That's a lot of talent and a lot of high draft picks. It's hard to improve a defense with that kind of luck.

What was the excuse this time last year?

September 16, 2007

"What can you say? It's just one of those bad days," said defensive end Justin Smith after the Bengals gave up their fifth-most yards in history (554) to a quarterback winning the first of his four NFL starts.
"It was mental errors. It's ridiculous. At this level of football, you can not have mental errors and let guys run down the field like that. That's what killed us. We missed a few tackles, but the big plays were mental errors. ... Guys are too good, too fast, too strong for you not to be where you need to be and then not to exploit it. That's what we did all day. You're going to get your butt beat if you do that. And we did, defensively."

GAC
09-17-2007, 01:03 PM
It seems like the only thing Marvin Lewis has done above and beyond the coaches before him is that he acquired Carson Palmer. Put Akili Smith or David Klingler at the helm and this team is no better than the teams of the 90s.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there, and GL says it better then I could....


The offensive line is a huge plus. Carson has more time on one play than Akili Smith or David Klingler got in many games. Palmer also has a much better receiving corp. Add that to the length of time most of these pieces have been in place together.

Look at your receiving corp and running backs. How about the offensive line? Does Mavin get any credit at all for assembling this cast?

The Bengals were the losingest team of the 90's. There was alot of frustration and despair by their fans. One can't say that about the Lewis tenure. They may have their problems and areas of concern, but it's nowhere near those 90's teams.

And losing guys likeThurman and Pollack has hurt IMO.

Maybe, with the defense, it's not so much an issue of talent as it is the scheme used?

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 02:37 PM
Look at your receiving corp and running backs. How about the offensive line? Does Mavin get any credit at all for assembling this cast?




I'll grant you the O-line has also improved. They at least have a LT now, be it Whitworth or Levi, but the RBs and WRs?

I think Corey Dillon and Carl Pickens/Darnay Scott compare to what we have now. The defense and special teams are arguably worse. The D was #30 last year in yards allowed. Not too many past Bengal teams can say that. When you add it all up, there's not much difference.

I think I can prove that you really don't disagree with me:

Let me ask you this and see if you still disagree. Take out Carson Palmer and add in Klingler, Akili, whoever...do you think this team wins more than 4 games? 4-12 seasons defined the old Bengals.

This team has shown itself to be an 8-8 team under Marvin Lewis and Carson Palmer. I think Carson means at least 4 games to this team. W/O Palmer this is a 4-12 team, IMO.

Do you disagree with that? How many games do you think this team wins sans Palmer?

WVRed
09-17-2007, 04:22 PM
My personal opinion.

Chuck Bresnahan needs to go, at least before the bye. Marvin should take over defensive playcalling for the rest of the season. If Brian Billick can do it on offense, Marvin can do it on defense.

At the end of the season, hire a new defensive coordinator and plan a transition to a 3-4 defense and get the personnel in to do it. It's hard to predict this early, but I would like to see James Laurianitis(Ohio St LB) fall to us.

traderumor
09-17-2007, 04:28 PM
Honeymoon is certainly the proper analogy, but I cannot disagree more with the conclusion that since the little starry-eyed puppy love feelings are gone for certain fans that Marvin Lewis is not the right coach for the Cincinnati Bengals.

Comparing this squad with the 90s product that was put on the field week after week is the first mistake. Of course taking Carson Palmer out of the equation would dramatically affect the record of this franchise. But the Before Marvin (BM) Bengals could just as easily taken Byron Leftwich, as many thought they should have. Last I heard, slow ole Byron was looking for work somewhere, anywhere. I never did hear if he caught on.The BM Bengals would not have had the 1st round pick signed, sealed and delivered before his name was ever called. The BM Bengals would not have resisted putting him on the field in that first season, when during a tough game for Jon Kitna I read Marvin's lips to say "stay with the plan, stay with the plan" when he was obviously tempted to throw his rookie in there. Carson Palmer is a huge feather in the cap of the current regime.

The OLine has already been mentioned.

Special teams are in disarray right now--this is the first year, first year that has been the case. The "teams" have been to date another feather in the cap to this era, this year it looks like talent drain from injuries and trouble makers has caught up, but its not fair to make such a conclusion after two games when that has been a strength during the era.

The one legitimate complaint folks have is the D side of the ball. It obviously is not as simple as "I thought he was some kind of defensive guru or something." For instance, Dick LeBeau stunk as a head coach in every area but popularity, yet he goes back to being a defensive coordinator and shows his genius. With the logic folks are using to whip on Marvin, LeBeau should have had Cincy's D doing what he is doing with Pittsburgh while he was head coach. He did not. The same thing has happened in Indy much of Tony Dungy's career, and it was pointed out the irony of the situation Marvin and Brian Billick share, with their specialties being their weakest link as they become head coaches.

Trust me, the D frustrates me as much as anyone else blowing off steam in this and the game thread from yesterday, but Marvin is a part of the solution, not the problem. Do you not think the D would be different with Thurman and Pollack lined up? Those were solid picks not producing for two totally different reasons, one possibly controllable (but too much responsibility for the bad boys is laid on Marvin, IMO), the other is an injury. But the solution is likely going to be found at the philosophical level, as the current approach has failed miserably.

But any talk of Marvin as not competent as the premise for this thread must stem from a short memory, because we've watched incompetence, know exactly what it looks like, watched it for 10 years, and Marvin's program is not a product of incompetence. I imagine it is a product of inexperience which requires some humbling confessions and change in direction on the D side of the ball.

Like marriage, you make mistakes, learn from them, make adjustments, clean up any messes made from the mistakes, and move forward. But it is not wise to consider divorce because there are some subpar areas in the marriage.

Redsfaithful
09-17-2007, 05:54 PM
Like marriage, you make mistakes, learn from them, make adjustments, clean up any messes made from the mistakes, and move forward. But it is not wise to consider divorce because there are some subpar areas in the marriage.

Exactly. Marvin can coach the Bengals for life as far as I'm concerned. There's really no reason to believe the Bengals won't go right back to 3-13 once he leaves. Obviously Carson makes it less likely the Bengals would be one of the worst teams in the NFL, but he's not going to play forever.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the defense not getting any better, but the Bengals have had a lot of stupid bad luck with injuries and character issues in the past few years. Nothing they can do about injuries, but they've stopped taking bad apples now, and I'm guessing the defense will improve over time. There a lot of youth on that side of the ball right now.

Not sure that'll mean much for this year, but I believe Marvin will turn things around. I just wish he'd cut his losses and get a new defensive coordinator.

GoReds33
09-17-2007, 05:56 PM
Exactly. Marvin can coach the Bengals for life as far as I'm concerned. There's really no reason to believe the Bengals won't go right back to 3-13 once he leaves. Obviously Carson makes it less likely the Bengals would be one of the worst teams in the NFL, but he's not going to play forever.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the defense not getting any better, but the Bengals have had a lot of stupid bad luck with injuries and character issues in the past few years. Nothing they can do about injuries, but they've stopped taking bad apples now, and I'm guessing the defense will improve over time. There a lot of youth on that side of the ball right now.

Not sure that'll mean much for this year, but I believe Marvin will turn things around. I just wish he'd cut his losses and get a new defensive coordinator.We can't ever be bad with Carson on the team.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2007, 05:56 PM
He's a good man, and I respect him as a person, however the "window" for the Bengals to contend for a Super Bowl will close is a couple of years and Marvin Lewis has done nothing with improving this defense. IT'S HORRIBLE!!! We are one bad call (against the Ravens), from being 0-2.



They're also 1 defensive stop from being 2-0...last year they were 4 or 5 plays from 12-4...

The "what if" game is stupid.

Yachtzee
09-17-2007, 07:02 PM
Exactly. Marvin can coach the Bengals for life as far as I'm concerned. There's really no reason to believe the Bengals won't go right back to 3-13 once he leaves. Obviously Carson makes it less likely the Bengals would be one of the worst teams in the NFL, but he's not going to play forever.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the defense not getting any better, but the Bengals have had a lot of stupid bad luck with injuries and character issues in the past few years. Nothing they can do about injuries, but they've stopped taking bad apples now, and I'm guessing the defense will improve over time. There a lot of youth on that side of the ball right now.

Not sure that'll mean much for this year, but I believe Marvin will turn things around. I just wish he'd cut his losses and get a new defensive coordinator.

The character issues can be controlled, they just weren't. Sometimes I wonder if Marvin has his priorities in order. He has no problem benching guys for missing a meeting, but it took a group of veteran players to raise hell before he would bench Henry for his screw-ups. Maybe if he had taken a harder line with Henry's off the field issues early, he might not be sitting out half the season right now. The injuries can't be controlled, but they can be mitigated by depth. The problem, as I see it, is that some of the second line players are kept around for reasons other than their ability to play their position. So when one or two guys go down on defense, they're suddenly in a world of hurt. Good teams have capable backups who, while they won't be winning any pro bowl selections, can at least do a competent job so that other guys don't have to cover for him. Losing Odell and Pollack was bad, but they've had plenty of time to find capable replacements and they haven't. I can't blame injuries for the poor play on defense.

Redsfaithful
09-17-2007, 07:10 PM
The character issues can be controlled, they just weren't. Sometimes I wonder if Marvin has his priorities in order.

I definitely agree with you, but something I'm starting to think (maybe only for the benefit of my sanity) is that coaches and GMs aren't static figures. I'm willing to give Krivsky more of a chance because I think he might learn from his mistakes, and I feel the same way about Lewis. He definitely screwed up in that area, but it seems like he's trying to turn it around. If he goes back to selecting guys who hit their girlfriends, etc. in next year's draft then my opinion will change.

BUTLER REDSFAN
09-17-2007, 07:20 PM
I didn't hear all of it but Lance played some of the press conference today..Very arrogant and smartalec for a coach that just gave up 51 points...I don't know why any of the press bothers to ask him a question.. he either refuses to answer or has a smartalec response

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 09:13 PM
Exactly. Marvin can coach the Bengals for life as far as I'm concerned.
Not sure that'll mean much for this year, but I believe Marvin will turn things around. I just wish he'd cut his losses and get a new defensive coordinator.


Well he's already coached this team to 8-8 3 out of 4 years. If he regresses and goes 7-9 this year does he still get to stay? Doesn't that show the world that complacency is fine?

I'm OK with Marvin as coach for now but he is on the fire as far as I'm concerned. If this year does not improve on last year's 8-8 Marvin should roll some heads on his staff like Bill Cowher has done. If not then Marvin should go IMO.

traderumor
09-17-2007, 09:32 PM
Well he's already coached this team to 8-8 3 out of 4 years. If he regresses and goes 7-9 this year does he still get to stay? Doesn't that show the world that complacency is fine?

I'm OK with Marvin as coach for now but he is on the fire as far as I'm concerned. If this year does not improve on last year's 8-8 Marvin should roll some heads on his staff like Bill Cowher has done. If not then Marvin should go IMO.

I think Marvin would be snatched up quickly by another program and they would reap the benefits of what he is learning on the job in Cincy. Why not let Cincy reap the benefits of his OJT?

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 09:48 PM
I think Marvin would be snatched up quickly by another program and they would reap the benefits of what he is learning on the job in Cincy. Why not let Cincy reap the benefits of his OJT?


If he's learning why doesn't the Bengals record show it?

traderumor
09-17-2007, 11:36 PM
If he's learning why doesn't the Bengals record show it?

That's a rather simplistic expectation, especially since the "learning" is a process and the man is in year 4 of taking a down and out franchise to the playoffs and league wide respectibility. Seriously, were you around for the 90s? Having the hatchet out for a man that turned a laughingstock franchise into a legitimate NFL team is, with all due respect, laughable.

As RF already pointed out, when you take on someone with no experience in a position, there will very likely be learning curve, even for the most competent people in whatever field. It amazes me that folks set standards for leaders, even new leaders, that assume the person knows everything they need to know for the job they are promoted too, and if they make some decisions that do not work out for whatever reason, it is a sign of incompetence. Yet, with this person, the competence for the job is evident in many areas, and for whatever reason, the D has not come together yet while the offense is one of the most dynamic in the league. For that, Marvin should be fired. Simply ludicrous.

However, that would be a sure way to ensure that the Bengals resume their rightful stance as a clueless organization.

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 11:45 PM
That's a rather simplistic expectation, especially since the "learning" is a process and the man is in year 4 of taking a down and out franchise to the playoffs and league wide respectibility. Seriously, were you around for the 90s? Having the hatchet out for a man that turned a laughingstock franchise into a legitimate NFL team is, with all due respect, laughable.




I am a simple man. Coaching in the NFL is a results business and the results for Marvin Lewis have not been improving. However I wouldn't make the leap that I have a hatchet out for him. I merely said that he should be held accountable but probably not fired at this time.

We have been a laughingstock ever since 4:30pm yesterday.

traderumor
09-17-2007, 11:50 PM
I am a simple man. Coaching in the NFL is a results business and the results for Marvin Lewis have not been improving.

Mikey Brown couldn't have said it better. You can let him borrow that for the firing Marvin presser. He shouldn't have to change a word.

Sea Ray
09-17-2007, 11:54 PM
Mikey Brown couldn't have said it better. You can let him borrow that for the firing Marvin presser. He shouldn't have to change a word.

Mike Brown is loyal to a fault. Marvin Lewis is safe and he knows it. It took 5 yrs for MB to see that Dave Shula was not a good coach. I am certain that MB is in no way considering Marvin's ouster.

Congratulations. You think like Mike Brown.

macro
09-18-2007, 01:10 AM
Well he's already coached this team to 8-8 3 out of 4 years. If he regresses and goes 7-9 this year does he still get to stay? Doesn't that show the world that complacency is fine?

I'm OK with Marvin as coach for now but he is on the fire as far as I'm concerned. If this year does not improve on last year's 8-8 Marvin should roll some heads on his staff like Bill Cowher has done. If not then Marvin should go IMO.

I agree completely. If they go 7-9, Marvin must go. Bruce Coslet took them to 7-9 in the mid-90s and Dick Lebeau took them to 6-10. Those kind of records have been done before...during the dark ages of the franchise.

MWM
09-18-2007, 01:38 AM
I agree with those who have said that the biggest reason they are where they are is that they've gotten little to nothing out of their last few drafts. That hurst and is tough to overcome. I understand that Pollack is beyond their control, but even considering that, they've drafted poorly. Chris Perry is one of the worst first round picks they've ever made and a lot of people, myself included, were dumbfounded when it happened.

As for Marvin, what he's done with the Bengals franchise is nothing short of miraculous. Just changing the entire mentality of the players, coaches, fans, is something few people could have done. We now have expectations. The fans expect the team to contend for a Super Bowl. It's a team worth investing in.

So I've always kept in mind the previous 13 years when I entertain the idea of Marvin leaving. That said, it would not surprise me at all if Marvin Lewis becomes that coach who was perfect to resurrect a franchise, but isn't the guy to take them to the next level. It doesn't take away from what he's already done, but that doesn't mean he's capable of taking that next leap. He just might not be that guy. I hope that isn't the case and I'm not convinced it is. But this year is the first time I even entertained the idea.

All that said, I'm with others in that I have NOOOOOOOOOO faith in Mike Brown's ability to go find that guy to take them to the next level.

Honestly, I think they need a real GM. I really believe that would cure a lot of the ills. There's too much personal feelings involved in the day to day operation of a pro football franchise. They need someone who'll come in a care about nothing but the business of winning.

GAC
09-18-2007, 06:31 AM
I'll grant you the O-line has also improved. They at least have a LT now, be it Whitworth or Levi, but the RBs and WRs?

If you have ever heard me define the biggest cause of the Brown's woes over these past several years it's been the offensive line, which I believe is the "lifeline" of your team. You put recent Brown O-lines in Cincy and you'll see Palmer's effectiveness drop regardless of the other weapons you may have in the running and receiving game - Whether it's Corey or Rudi, they would be stifled. Your talented receivers would constantly have to be breaking their routes and coming back to try and save your QBs butt. And a frustrated CJ would be demanding a trade out of Cincy because his talents wouldn't be showcased. ;)

On the flip side - you give me the O-line of the Bengals, Colts, or Patriots in Cleveland, along with the weapons we have there, and we become a much better ballclub, as well as Derek Anderson too. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying he'd become a Palmer or Manning, just better. While the Bengal's defense played terrible last Sunday (and so did ours by the way), you have to give some of that credit to Anderson and this offensive line which did not allow a sack.

So don't downplay the overall worth of what Marvin has done with the Bengals' offensive line. It's big IMO.



I think I can prove that you really don't disagree with me:

Let me ask you this and see if you still disagree. Take out Carson Palmer and add in Klingler, Akili, whoever...do you think this team wins more than 4 games? 4-12 seasons defined the old Bengals.

This team has shown itself to be an 8-8 team under Marvin Lewis and Carson Palmer. I think Carson means at least 4 games to this team. W/O Palmer this is a 4-12 team, IMO.

Do you disagree with that? How many games do you think this team wins sans Palmer?

Sure you probably wouldn't win as many games without Palmer. He's one of the main reasons for your success. He's a franchise QB abd difference maker. If he's not, then they would have kept Kitna.

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make? That if you remove your franchise QB you won't win as many games? That is obvious.

How many games does Indy win sans Manning?

But you've already pinpointed the problem with your team, which is not on the offensive side of the ball, when you said this.....


The defense and special teams are arguably worse. The D was #30 last year in yards allowed. Not too many past Bengal teams can say that. When you add it all up, there's not much difference.

They are the reason you are losing ballgames. It has nothing at all to do with Palmer and the offense.

GAC
09-18-2007, 06:44 AM
I think Marvin would be snatched up quickly by another program and they would reap the benefits of what he is learning on the job in Cincy. Why not let Cincy reap the benefits of his OJT?

I thoroughly agree. It appears your team's problems are on the defensive and special teams side of the ball. Though it may still be hard to judge after only week #2.... the "D" got praise after the Monday Night game, and then laid an egg this last Sunday.

At some point though, his "learning on the job" has to lead to his properly evaluating, acquiring the right personnel, and correcting those deficiencies.

That is what has me perplexed somewhat about Marvin. He was primarily a LBer coach in college and also with the Steelers (4 years). He then becomes the defensive coordinator for the Ravens (6 years), and oversees a defense that in 2000 allowed the fewest rushing yards (970) and the fewest points (165) in a 16-game season, whikle totally sominating the Giants in the Super Bowl.

Yet his "problem area" with the Bengals is not offense but defense. I'm still scratching my head.

But my lord! This guy is entering only his fifth season as your head coach. And IMO he turned this team around pretty quickly. Yeah, you've had three 8-8 season with an 11-5 year sandwiched in there.

How quickly some forget their recent woes.

Firing Marvin will only complicate/compound the situation IMHO.

But I do agree with this wise man's synopsis.....


As for Marvin, what he's done with the Bengals franchise is nothing short of miraculous. Just changing the entire mentality of the players, coaches, fans, is something few people could have done. We now have expectations. The fans expect the team to contend for a Super Bowl. It's a team worth investing in.

So I've always kept in mind the previous 13 years when I entertain the idea of Marvin leaving. That said, it would not surprise me at all if Marvin Lewis becomes that coach who was perfect to resurrect a franchise, but isn't the guy to take them to the next level. It doesn't take away from what he's already done, but that doesn't mean he's capable of taking that next leap. He just might not be that guy. I hope that isn't the case and I'm not convinced it is. But this year is the first time I even entertained the idea.

But Bengal fans better be careful at what they may be wishing for if some are that displeased with ML. You could come to regret it. ;)

traderumor
09-18-2007, 07:12 AM
Mike Brown is loyal to a fault. Marvin Lewis is safe and he knows it. It took 5 yrs for MB to see that Dave Shula was not a good coach. I am certain that MB is in no way considering Marvin's ouster.

Congratulations. You think like Mike Brown.

That belongs in the all-time twisted-logic-to-reach-conclusion archive. Comparing first hiring and then keeping Dave Shula around to the job Marvin Lewis is doing is as ludicrous as suggesting he should be in jeapordy of losing his job. I don't think is anymore to say in this particular conversation.

GAC
09-18-2007, 07:26 AM
Notwithstanding who Mike Brown is..... was his selection/hiring of ML just dumb luck, and that "even a blind dog finds a bone every once in awhile?"

macro
09-18-2007, 08:16 AM
My memory may not be serving me correctly, GAC, but I think it was Mike Brown's daughter Katie that fought for Marvin Lewis to get the job. At the time, I read that Mike wanted Mike Mularkey, who ended up going to the Bills. We know how that worked out.

If that's true, it would come as absolutely no surprise, would it? :laugh:

Yachtzee
09-18-2007, 09:02 AM
My memory may not be serving me correctly, GAC, but I think it was Mike Brown's daughter Katie that fought for Marvin Lewis to get the job. At the time, I read that Mike wanted Mike Mularkey, who ended up going to the Bills. We know how that worked out.

If that's true, it would come as absolutely no surprise, would it? :laugh:

That's the story I've heard. I've always been a big fan of Marvin Lewis for turning this team around. I really want him to succeed in Cincinnati and take them to the Super Bowl, but I get the feeling he's our Tony Dungy. Tony Dungy took over a moribund Buccanneers team that had a long history of losing. He got them to the point where they were respectable, but they couldn't get over the hump to get to the Super Bowl. Next thing you know, Dungy's out and heading to the Colts and Gruden is brought in. Gruden then takes the Buccanneers to the Super Bowl and wins. Meanwhile Dungy moves on to the Colts and turns them around and now he has his own Super Bowl championship. My fear is that the Bengals will let Lewis go and he will take what he learned from the Bengals and put it toward winning a Super Bowl with someone else. The problem with the Bengals is that, as long as Mike Brown has some say in the hiring decision, I don't think they'll be able to grab a John Gruden to take this team to the Super Bowl. I fear Mike Brown will toss the HC job to one of the current assistants on the team and the rest of the staff will remain the same. I like that Mike Brown is loyal, but I hate that his loyalty sometimes overshadows his desire to win football games. I wish he would sit down with Lewis and lay it on the line, fix the defense, now.

BuckWoody
09-18-2007, 09:06 AM
My memory may not be serving me correctly, GAC, but I think it was Mike Brown's daughter Katie that fought for Marvin Lewis to get the job. At the time, I read that Mike wanted Mike Mularkey, who ended up going to the Bills. We know how that worked out.

If that's true, it would come as absolutely no surprise, would it? :laugh:
From everything that I've ever heard or read, that was indeed the case, Marvin was Katie's guy. To Mike's credit, though, he did relent and hire the better guy.

There are times as a Bengals fan that I truly believe that we will never have a consistently good team until Mike Brown is no longer there. He took one step back with the hiring of Marvin, now he needs to step completely out of the picture and let Katie hire a real GM.

GAC
09-18-2007, 09:47 AM
My memory may not be serving me correctly, GAC, but I think it was Mike Brown's daughter Katie that fought for Marvin Lewis to get the job. At the time, I read that Mike wanted Mike Mularkey, who ended up going to the Bills. We know how that worked out.

If that's true, it would come as absolutely no surprise, would it? :laugh:

I would never hire someone for a coaching position whose last name was "mularkey" :lol:

Sea Ray
09-18-2007, 09:53 AM
So don't downplay the overall worth of what Marvin has done with the Bengals' offensive line. It's big IMO.



I really don't understand the point you're trying to make? That if you remove your franchise QB you won't win as many games? That is obvious.

But you've already pinpointed the problem with your team, which is not on the offensive side of the ball, when you said this.....



They are the reason you are losing ballgames. It has nothing at all to do with Palmer and the offense.


GAC, the point of this thread is to evaluate Marvin Lewis as a coach. The point I was making that you earlier disagreed with is that the main thing Marvin did was luck into a Carson Palmer with the #1 pick he was handed. Take Palmer out of the equation and we're back to the 4-12 seasons of the 90s. Let's say Palmer wasn't on the board that year? Let's say, as someone earlier said, they took Leftwich. They'd be struggling at 4-12 now.

Why do you give Marvin credit for the O-line? He inherited Levi Jones and Big Willie.

What was your point when you said the problem was not with the offense? Doesn't the problems of the defense and special teams reflect on Marvin?

Sea Ray
09-18-2007, 09:59 AM
At some point though, his "learning on the job" has to lead to his properly evaluating, acquiring the right personnel, and correcting those deficiencies.


Yet his "problem area" with the Bengals is not offense but defense. I'm still scratching my head.


Firing Marvin will only complicate/compound the situation IMHO.

But Bengal fans better be careful at what they may be wishing for if some are that displeased with ML. You could come to regret it. ;)

You make a good point that Marvin may be the best we can hope for with MB doing the hiring...

CrackerJack
09-18-2007, 10:06 AM
GAC, the point of this thread is to evaluate Marvin Lewis as a coach. The point I was making that you earlier disagreed with is that the main thing Marvin did was luck into a Carson Palmer with the #1 pick he was handed. Take Palmer out of the equation and we're back to the 4-12 seasons of the 90s. Let's say Palmer wasn't on the board that year? Let's say, as someone earlier said, they took Leftwich. They'd be struggling at 4-12 now.

Why do you give Marvin credit for the O-line? He inherited Levi Jones and Big Willie.

What was your point when you said the problem was not with the offense? Doesn't the problems of the defense and special teams reflect on Marvin?


Yep, exactly. He also inherited Chad and TJ. Palmer almost deserves more credit than Marvin for his one winning season so far.

The decisions to extend Willie and Levi AND Bobbie Williams were bad ones - eating up their cap space so badly that they couldn't sign anyone in free agency the last two seasons who's worth a darn. I remember hating those moves.

Willie should've been put out to pasture - or Levi - and Whitworth should've been put in their places (one or the other). Steinbach should've been extended ahead of time and Williams should've been set free (he's not that good).

Get younger and better, and quit holding onto injury-prone players like Tab and Chris Perry, Rucker, Fanene, Levi, Willie, et al...,

Make some bold decisions, make smart moves, stay ahead of the curve and actually upgrade your defense, quit drafting numbskulls - none of which the Bengals' have done.

And the 2007 draft is pretty bad at this point, not a single contributor on the field other than Hall this year so far from that class - and he looked awful Sunday, and not much better in the preseason.

WVRed
09-18-2007, 10:23 AM
Just to overview Marvin's drafts.

2003-
1.Carson Palmer-we all know how that worked out.

2.Eric Steinbach-Good pick and helped to solidify our offensive line, just lost him to FA.

3.Kelley Washington-If not for the neck injury he suffered at Tennessee, he would have been a first round pick. He had potential, just never panned out.

We did take Jeremi Johnson in that draft though.

2004-
1.Chris Perry-If Perry had not stayed injured, this wouldn't have been as bad a pick as people think. He was a pass catching back that we could alternate with Rudi's pounding style. I will admit I was against picking Chris Gamble here, but I was wrong.

2a.Keiwan Ratliff-Probably the worst of the Marvin picks. Never materialized as a top corner, but now just serves as a punt returner.

2b.Madieu Williams-Lost a year due to injury, but is one of the best safeties in the game.

3a.Caleb Miller-Could go with the same argument as Ratliff. Used on special teams mostly.

3b.Landon Johnson-Does show promise.

2005-

1.David Pollack-Would have fit the model citizen the Bengals are looking to create. Freak neck injury prevented him from taking his game and this defense to the next level.

2.Odell Thurman-Should have been defensive ROY over Merriman. Off field issues have hurt him and us more than anything.

3.Chris Henry-This is the one pick I absolutely loved at the time. He had the potential to be in the same mold as another receiver from West Virginia, but completely bombed it.

We did take Ghiacuic in that draft too.

2006-

1.Johnathan Joseph-Wait and see, but his hands aren't worth braggng about.

2.Andrew Whitworth-Hated the pick at the time, but seeing Steinbach is gone, probably not a bad pick.

3.Frostee Rucker-Has yet to play a game.

Domata Peko is starting.

2007-

1.Leon Hall-Impressive so far, but failed to address a bigger need.

2.Kenny Irons-OFTS

3.Forfeited to select Ahmad Brooks in Supplemental, which really was a good idea.

Sea Ray
09-18-2007, 10:28 AM
That belongs in the all-time twisted-logic-to-reach-conclusion archive. Comparing first hiring and then keeping Dave Shula around to the job Marvin Lewis is doing is as ludicrous as suggesting he should be in jeapordy of losing his job. I don't think is anymore to say in this particular conversation.

How Mike Brown has handled past hires is very pertinent to a discussion of whether he will fire his current coach.

GAC
09-18-2007, 12:16 PM
What was your point when you said the problem was not with the offense? Doesn't the problems of the defense and special teams reflect on Marvin?

Oh absolutely. Which is why I said this....


That is what has me perplexed somewhat about Marvin. He was primarily a LBer coach in college and also with the Steelers (4 years). He then becomes the defensive coordinator for the Ravens (6 years), and oversees a defense that in 2000 allowed the fewest rushing yards (970) and the fewest points (165) in a 16-game season, whikle totally sominating the Giants in the Super Bowl.

Yet his "problem area" with the Bengals is not offense but defense. I'm still scratching my head.


My point with referencing why the problem was not with the offensive side of the ball was to basically "counter" what you stated about Palmer probably adding 4 wins, so there is really no reason to illustrate that since that is not the area of concern.

It's not how much Carson ADDS, in the sense of wins; but how much your defense SUBTRACTS, in the sense of games lost.

Sea Ray
09-18-2007, 02:25 PM
My point with referencing why the problem was not with the offensive side of the ball was to basically "counter" what you stated about Palmer probably adding 4 wins, so there is really no reason to illustrate that since that is not the area of concern.

It's not how much Carson ADDS, in the sense of wins; but how much your defense SUBTRACTS, in the sense of games lost.


The problem is not with the O-line or QB. We agree on that as well as the D being a big problem. My point was if you put a QB from the Bengal's 90s on this team instead of Palmer (like Klingler, Schroeder, O'Donnell, Blake) you get a 4 win team just like they had then.

Kudos to Marvin for securing and training a franchise QB. But other than that, what separates Marvin from the coaches that preceded him?

TeamSelig
09-18-2007, 02:57 PM
How much intelligence does it take to draft a top notch heisman trophy winning QB from USC?

Sea Ray
09-18-2007, 04:35 PM
How much intelligence does it take to draft a top notch heisman trophy winning QB from USC?

My point exactly. Who wouldn't have drafted Palmer #1 that year if you needed a QB? I don't think that makes Marvin a good coach or anything. In fact Marvin inherited Chad, TJ, both OTs, Rudi and the #1 overall pick in the draft. He is to be congratulated for getting them to 8-8 but that was 4 years ago. It's time to improve on that.

wheels
09-18-2007, 04:49 PM
Holy crap.

Some of you are missing the bigger picture when it comes to Marvin Lewis.

We know about all of the off field issues, and we can argue about who should be blamed, but Marvin changed an entire culture the minute he took over. Not only were there some historically rotten football players, but they were out of shape. Nobody stayed around in the offseason to work out the way they do now, and even if they did, there were no up to date facilities with which to do so. Anyone remember the playing surface? That giant mud pit? That's gone and replaced by field turf.

I know these things seem small, and they are only two examples, but if you add them up, along with things we know nothing about, they are a big deal. He's updated them, brought them into the 21'st century.

Yes they're struggling defensively, and they've got special teamers starting at linebacker, and starting linebackers and safties are being used as special teamers due to injuries, and yes they need to fire Chuck Bresnahan for last week's transgressions, but to say that a reasonable solution would be to fire the very man that resurrected the franchise is a severe case of "the baby with the bathwater".

I'll echo Redsfaithful's sentiment that Marvin can stay as long as he wishes, He gave me back my Sundays.

TeamSelig
09-18-2007, 05:00 PM
So he turned our program from a HORRIBLE organization, to an average to slightly below average team?

I'll give him that, but he really needs to step it up. How long do we give him?

Matt700wlw
09-18-2007, 05:19 PM
Holy crap.

Some of you are missing the bigger picture when it comes to Marvin Lewis.

We know about all of the off field issues, and we can argue about who should be blamed, but Marvin changed an entire culture the minute he took over. Not only were there some historically rotten football players, but they were out of shape. Nobody stayed around in the offseason to work out the way they do now, and even if they did, there were no up to date facilities with which to do so. Anyone remember the playing surface? That giant mud pit? That's gone and replaced by field turf.

I know these things seem small, and they are only two examples, but if you add them up, along with things we know nothing about, they are a big deal. He's updated them, brought them into the 21'st century.

Yes they're struggling defensively, and they've got special teamers starting at linebacker, and starting linebackers and safties are being used as special teamers due to injuries, and yes they need to fire Chuck Bresnahan for last week's transgressions, but to say that a reasonable solution would be to fire the very man that resurrected the franchise is a severe case of "the baby with the bathwater".

I'll echo Redsfaithful's sentiment that Marvin can stay as long as he wishes, He gave me back my Sundays.


Yes. This he did do. Eventually, you have to get beyond that...

Eventually you have to consistantly have winning seasons, playoff runs, and be in the Super Bowl chace.

You do that enough, you eventually knock the door down and get one....ask Indy.

So far, that hasn't happened....1 winning season and 0 playoff wins in 4 years is not "consistant" - this fan base is beyond the joy of 8-8...or it should be.

The 2003 8-8 was considered good. the 2004's was a stepping stone...considering the situations.

The 2006 8-8 was unacceptable.

WVRed
09-18-2007, 10:27 PM
So he turned our program from a HORRIBLE organization, to an average to slightly below average team?

I'll give him that, but he really needs to step it up. How long do we give him?

I give him this year and next, which is pretty generous.

A lot depends on the results though. If he goes 8-8 again this year and doesn't improve next year, it might be time to make a change.

For those who think Marvin is the problem though, I pose this question. Who would you like to see as potential replacements?

Matt700wlw
09-18-2007, 10:34 PM
For those who think Marvin is the problem though, I pose this question. Who would you like to see as potential replacements?

Given the hiring body's history, I shudder to think...whenever that day one day comes..

macro
09-18-2007, 10:35 PM
For those who think Marvin is the problem though, I pose this question. Who would you like to see as potential replacements?

I mentioned this earlier, but Cowher will obviously do some good for some team either next year or the year after. I'm holding grudges over things he did as coach of the Steelers, though, so I don't think I'd want him. He was also critical of Chad the other day on TV, as well. I don't think it matters what I think, because he would never come to Cincinnati anyway.

guttle11
09-18-2007, 10:36 PM
Lots of overreactions after an complete anomaly of a game. How many people would have said this on Saturday?

It was one game. Just one. Uno.

Fact: Marvin Lewis has a winning record as head coach, without a losing season. (BTW, how many other coaches have done the same since 2003?)
Fact: Marvin led the team to its only playoff appearance in nearly two decades.

"Honeymoon" is a myth. The level of talent Marvin supposedly lucked into is an opinion. Let's live in the world of facts.

WVRed
09-18-2007, 10:58 PM
I mentioned this earlier, but Cowher will obviously do some good for some team either next year or the year after. I'm holding grudges over things he did as coach of the Steelers, though, so I don't think I'd want him. He was also critical of Chad the other day on TV, as well. I don't think it matters what I think, because he would never come to Cincinnati anyway.

I'm thinking either him or Marty Schottenheimer, but either would make me start looking for a new team.

I think whoever is hired would be high profile, similar to the Bucs getting Gruden.

GAC
09-19-2007, 07:13 AM
Eventually you have to consistantly have winning seasons, playoff runs, and be in the Super Bowl chace.

You do that enough, you eventually knock the door down and get one....ask Indy.

And how long did it take Indy to get that one? It took Peyton 9 years before finally getting his SB ring.

How long did it take Elway?

Now someone earlier mentioned that while Marvin may have "laid the foundation" of this team and turned it around, it might take the next coach to get them to that next level, like a Tony Dungy. That may very well be true.

But before you do something rash and dismiss a Marvin Lewis, you'd better already have that "Tony Dungy" ready to come in and fill that slot. Dungy basically wore out his welcome at TB. He was ready/looking for change. The timing/circumstances were "aligned" for Indy to come in and get him.

That circumstance also needs to exist for the Bengals too. Who is that candidate? Anyone have a person in mind? Simply saying "I don't know, but I don't think it is Marvin", simply because of fan frustration, isn't going to get it IMO.

And I'm not saying that ML should have an open-ended contract either. He should be scrutinized. And I'm sure he realizes all to well that he has to improve this defense if he wants to take this team to the next level.

I'd personally give him a couple more seasons to see what he can do to correct it before calling for his head.

And Dungy and Lewis are very much alike. They both came up through the league as DB coaches, defensive coordinators, and defense is considered their forte and what got them recognized and earned them shots at being head coaches.

Yet as good as the Colts have been under Dungy's 5 year tenure, what area has caused them alot of heartache? Especially in the post-season?

His defense. It's kicked them in the butt alot.