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BuckeyeRed27
09-19-2007, 11:19 PM
Groin or hamstring injury
Hurt it trying to throw the ball to the plate on a single to right.
Walked off on his own but badly limping.

winker12
09-19-2007, 11:27 PM
When he swung at strike 3 during his last at bat it looked like he was in pain-and no, I don't think it was from whiffing 3 times.

Screwball
09-19-2007, 11:31 PM
Now who plays RF? Ellison? Coats?

Who bats 3rd now? Phillips? Dunn? EE?

BuckeyeRed27
09-19-2007, 11:32 PM
He wasn't moving well before he pulled up hurt either. Just didn't look very natural.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:02 AM
just a matter of time anyways

Screwball
09-20-2007, 12:53 AM
Well, it was obvious from the way he went down that it was painful, but I didn't think it was this painful:



Griffey said he didn't remember anything after the initial shock of pain. He said he knew he threw it, but not sure where.

"The best way I can describe it is it felt like somebody bungee jumped off my right nut," Griffey said.


Ouch. That hurts just thinking about it.

BTW, according to Trent (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/), it's a lower abdominal strain and Griffey won't travel with the team to San Francisco.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:54 AM
Cant wait to get me some Buck Coats

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:55 AM
Should be interesting to see the line ups now thats for sure.

demas863
09-20-2007, 01:24 AM
As already mentioned it was just a matter of time especially since he hasn't played this much in a single season for some time and he's further down the slope age-wise. It has been fairly obvious that for the last few games he has been a tired man who needs a rest. Bad things usually happen in that state and they did. I blame Mak (as does Brantley, indirectly). Good managers anticipate, not react. When Mak took over he did just that. He managed the players to their strengths and condition, keeping everybody involved rather than playing "commodity baseball" like a bookkeeper. Miley and Narron did the same thing when they took over and then gradually fell victim to the "Peter Principle" as each became trapped in a cautious strategy of consensus, political correctness and blame avoidance, fearing the loss of their jobs which, of course, became unavoidable. Players know.

Everybody saw Griffey flinch on the strike out in the prior inning. He should have been yanked right there. End of subject.

AmarilloRed
09-20-2007, 02:21 AM
We now have both Hamilton and Griffey hurt, so this will add momentum to the Bring up Jay Bruce chorus. I have been against it up to this point, but I finally bow to the inevitable. I am sorry that Griffey got hurt. I would imagine their is a significant chance Bruce will get considerable playing time in 2008 with the fragility of Hamilton and Griffey.

TheOnlyRedsFan
09-20-2007, 06:52 AM
We now have both Hamilton and Griffey hurt, so this will add momentum to the Bring up Jay Bruce chorus. I have been against it up to this point, but I finally bow to the inevitable. I am sorry that Griffey got hurt. I would imagine their is a significant chance Bruce will get considerable playing time in 2008 with the fragility of Hamilton and Griffey.


doubtful...if Mack is lucky enough to be still around, he probably puts Freel in

RedDevil
09-20-2007, 07:07 AM
Votto in right and Cantu at first?

ChatterRed
09-20-2007, 08:40 AM
We now have both Hamilton and Griffey hurt, so this will add momentum to the Bring up Jay Bruce chorus. I have been against it up to this point, but I finally bow to the inevitable. I am sorry that Griffey got hurt. I would imagine their is a significant chance Bruce will get considerable playing time in 2008 with the fragility of Hamilton and Griffey.

Bruce should have been up when Hamilton went down permanently.

How many more games? 10? 12? Call Jay Bruce and tell him he's going to get his feet wet for about 10 days. It would be good for him and good for the organization to find out a few things.

a1redsfan
09-20-2007, 09:03 AM
Bruce should have been up when Hamilton went down permanently.

How many more games? 10? 12? Call Jay Bruce and tell him he's going to get his feet wet for about 10 days. It would be good for him and good for the organization to find out a few things.

I AGREE 110%

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 09:28 AM
Bruce should have been up when Hamilton went down permanently.

How many more games? 10? 12? Call Jay Bruce and tell him he's going to get his feet wet for about 10 days. It would be good for him and good for the organization to find out a few things.

keeping him off the 40 man is fine to me. Let him come in spring training see how he does and save the roster spot

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 10:00 AM
Everybody saw Griffey flinch on the strike out in the prior inning. He should have been yanked right there. End of subject.

The manager always takes the blame, unfortunately. He double switches JR and gets criticized. He rests JR earlier in the year and gets criticized. He relies on the man himself to say whether he can play - and gets criticized.

How many Games has Brantley managed? It's so easy for everyone, especially talking heads in the booths, to second guess a manager's every move and always make it sound like the talking head is a genius.

So now a manager has to be tuned into a player's "flinches" to make his decisions?

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 10:01 AM
Jr should have taken himself out. Needless to say hes now injured and we got us some buck coats and jason ellison.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 10:06 AM
.... Miley and Narron did the same thing when they took over and then gradually fell victim to the "Peter Principle" as each became trapped in a cautious strategy of consensus, political correctness and blame avoidance, fearing the loss of their jobs which, of course, became unavoidable. Players know.

This manager does not operate out of fear for his job. In fact, the way WK tries to run things, he may not even want to be considered for the position next season. (How many games has WK managed? GMs should be GMs and not try to be field managers)

BTW, what do you mean by saying "players know"? Players know what? The only thing the players know is how much money they make.

I(heart)Freel
09-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Man, the Bruce call-up is debatable.

I know it's only 10 days... but don't you think if he IS in the Reds plans in 2008 that getting him some ABs and some experience can only help him.

And the 40-man roster conundrum seems incidental, seeing as we'd have to place him on there come spring training if he does play his way into 2008 plans.

The biggest reason FOR this idea: doesn't it help you feel a little better about making a trade in the offseason after seeing him in the big leagues, even for a cup of coffee?

texasdave
09-20-2007, 10:34 AM
The manager always takes the blame, unfortunately. He double switches JR and gets criticized. He rests JR earlier in the year and gets criticized. He relies on the man himself to say whether he can play - and gets criticized.

How many Games has Brantley managed? It's so easy for everyone, especially talking heads in the booths, to second guess a manager's every move and always make it sound like the talking head is a genius.

So now a manager has to be tuned into a player's "flinches" to make his decisions?

:clap:

Old NDN
09-20-2007, 11:44 AM
I have been a Jr. fan for many years, but as I watched the game tonight, (before the injury) I thought sadly, that Jr. was playing like an aging veteran. He seemed overmatched at the plate, and awkward in the outfield. I know this is just one game, but I really hadn't noticed this before.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 11:59 AM
I have been a Jr. fan for many years, but as I watched the game tonight, (before the injury) I thought sadly, that Jr. was playing like an aging veteran. He seemed overmatched at the plate, and awkward in the outfield. I know this is just one game, but I really hadn't noticed this before.

I agree with your observation. If you had been watching Jr slowly walk on and off the field between innings, all season, you have to think that he has lost a lot of energy.

It is sad to watch a fading star.

scounts22
09-20-2007, 12:11 PM
I agree with your observation. If you had been watching Jr slowly walk on and off the field between innings, all season, you have to think that he has lost a lot of energy.

It is sad to watch a fading star.

Wow, I haven't thought that at all. I've enjoyed watching Jr play this year. Don't you think he's probaby tired at this point in the season? I know it was previously mentioned on this thread that he should have had a break, with which I totally agree. He had a great season. Yes, he's getting older, but you're making him sound as though he has a terminal illness and won't be with us much longer.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 12:41 PM
Wow, I haven't thought that at all. I've enjoyed watching Jr play this year. Don't you think he's probaby tired at this point in the season? I know it was previously mentioned on this thread that he should have had a break, with which I totally agree. He had a great season. Yes, he's getting older, but you're making him sound as though he has a terminal illness and won't be with us much longer.

How do you make a quantum leap from a characterization that someone is a fading star to saying he has a terminal illness.

Jr has slowly walked on and off the field for a long time. When do you tell him to sit on the bench?

scounts22
09-20-2007, 12:54 PM
How do you make a quantum leap from a characterization that someone is a fading star to saying he has a terminal illness.

Jr has slowly walked on and off the field for a long time. When do you tell him to sit on the bench?

Um, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I said you're making him SOUND as though he has a terminal illness. I never said that he had one. It's called sarcasm. Your quote, "It is sad to watch a fading star" is where I derived my response. I was joking. Sorry to offend you.

And if I were Pete I wouldn't tell him to sit on the bench, I'd tell him that I noticed he needed a break. I didn't say I'd bench him.

dthomas24
09-20-2007, 01:28 PM
I have to agree that Jr. has looked overmatched lately. I thought at the beginning of the season his bat looked slow, probably from the wrist injury over the winter. Then he went on a tear during the middle of the year and then as of the last month his bat looked slow again. It seems that pitchers have been challenging him with fastballs that he just can't catch up to. I'm a fan of Griffey but I have to agree that he "got tired" which is expected of a guy in his upper 30's (unless you didn't knowingly juice!) I would like to see Jr. finish his career on a strong note, which may mean DHing in the AL.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 01:29 PM
scounts, I need a break.

thanks for the wake up call.

we may be taking this game too seriously when we start talking about your sarcasm or my characterizations. After all, it's just entertainment.

AmarilloRed
09-20-2007, 02:08 PM
The Reds did not consider bringing Jay Bruce to the majors after Josh Hamilton's injury. One of the reasons they didn't bring Bruce up in the first place was there weren't enough at-bats for him. Bruce is home in Texas. He'll go to instructional league in about a week, then to Arizona to train with USA Team for the tournament in Taiwan.

I quoted this from John Fay from about a week ago. It is possible this could change, but it would appear unlikely from this information.

demas863
09-20-2007, 02:10 PM
This manager does not operate out of fear for his job. In fact, the way WK tries to run things, he may not even want to be considered for the position next season. (How many games has WK managed? GMs should be GMs and not try to be field managers)

BTW, what do you mean by saying "players know"? Players know what? The only thing the players know is how much money they make.


Briefly, they know the difference between a good move (whether a decision or lack thereof) and a bad move. That doesn't mean the good moves always work out and the bad moves don't. But it does mean that the good moves work out more often than not. A good move would have been to take Griffey out after he clearly showed signs of distress (flinched, grimaced - call it what you want) swinging the bat. That was a no-brainer. Did you see the game?

demas863
09-20-2007, 02:23 PM
The manager always takes the blame, unfortunately. He double switches JR and gets criticized. He rests JR earlier in the year and gets criticized. He relies on the man himself to say whether he can play - and gets criticized.

How many Games has Brantley managed? It's so easy for everyone, especially talking heads in the booths, to second guess a manager's every move and always make it sound like the talking head is a genius.

So now a manager has to be tuned into a player's "flinches" to make his decisions?

Yes. Brantley made the call before before Jr. went down in right field and before he flinched (showed signs of distress) in his last at-bat. He said he was a tired man and needed to be rested.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Briefly, they know the difference between a good move (whether a decision or lack thereof) and a bad move. That doesn't mean the good moves always work out and the bad moves don't. But it does mean that the good moves work out more often than not. A good move would have been to take Griffey out after he clearly showed signs of distress (flinched, grimaced - call it what you want) swinging the bat. That was a no-brainer. Did you see the game?

A "lack of a decision" as you characterize it, is also a decision to take no action. Players do not have a say in strategic decision-making, thank goodness. Therefore, it is irrelevant what a player thinks about a manager's decision, in fact, most of them do not think about anything further than their next at bat or how they will react to a ball hit in their direction.

Is a manager expected to interpret a player's "flinches", "grimaces", farts, burps, and other subtle sounds or movements as profound signs of an impending requirement to do something?

I hate to say this about Jr, but if it were a no-brainer, then Jr has no brain. Only he knows how his body will react to what his mind tells it to do. An HOFer is responsible for making a decision about his ability to perform.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 02:29 PM
Yes. Brantley made the call before before Jr. went down in right field and before he flinched (showed signs of distress) in his last at-bat. He said he was a tired man and needed to be rested.

Brantley made an observation, period. Does that elevate his status to genius? Brantley's job is to talk about the game. All the talking heads like to second-guess the manager's decisions.

OesterPoster
09-20-2007, 02:31 PM
All the talking heads like to second-guess the manager's decisions.

Much unlike Redszone posters, who agree 100% with every managerial decision. :D

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Much unlike Redszone posters, who agree 100% with every managerial decision. :D

I get it, sarcasm, right?

texasdave
09-20-2007, 04:06 PM
Countless times players flinch, grimace, moan and groan momentarily during games. It is not at all an uncommon occurence. Most of the time they stay in the game and are fine. How many times have you seen a manager or trainer come in and check on a player, then after getting some kind of reassurance from the player that he is ok, allow that player to stay in the game? It happens on hits batsmen. It happens on balls fouled off the player while at-bat. It happens on balls fouled off the catcher. It happens on balls hit through the middle that deflect off a pitcher. It happens on checked swings. It happens when players collide. It happens when players run into the wall. In short, it happens quite often. Should all of those players immediately be pulled out of the game? I guess so if it is such a no-brainer. Hindsight is 20/20.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 04:17 PM
Countless times players flinch, grimace, moan and groan momentarily during games. It is not at all an uncommon occurence. Most of the time they stay in the game and are fine. How many times have you seen a manager or trainer come in and check on a player, then after getting some kind of reassurance from the player that he is ok, allow that player to stay in the game? It happens on hits batsmen. It happens on balls fouled off the player while at-bat. It happens on balls fouled off the catcher. It happens on balls hit through the middle that deflect off a pitcher. It happens on checked swings. It happens when players collide. It happens when players run into the wall. In short, it happens quite often. Should all of those players immediately be pulled out of the game? I guess so if it is such a no-brainer. Hindsight is 20/20.

excellent observation, Dave. In the instances you cited, the trainer gives the manager his opinion on the players condition. I think the trainers are more perceptive regarding a player's actual or latent injury.

gilpdawg
09-20-2007, 04:24 PM
At least it's not a leg injury.

Krawhitham
09-20-2007, 07:05 PM
With all the bad press Jr gets when he misses time can you blame him for not requesting a day off?

jnwohio
09-20-2007, 07:39 PM
keeping him off the 40 man is fine to me. Let him come in spring training see how he does and save the roster spot


The Reds do not have to put Bruce on the 40 man roster to maintain control of him until until after next season. Saving a spot for somebody else they needed to have on the 40 this off season in order maintain control of may have been a big part in the decision to hold back Bruce (and Cueto) from a September call up this year.


That said, after the injuries to Hamilton and Griffey, it would be nice to see Bruce to start his prep for TeamUSA wiht the Reds in the next 10 days.

demas863
09-20-2007, 07:46 PM
A "lack of a decision" as you characterize it, is also a decision to take no action. Players do not have a say in strategic decision-making, thank goodness. Therefore, it is irrelevant what a player thinks about a manager's decision, in fact, most of them do not think about anything further than their next at bat or how they will react to a ball hit in their direction.

Is a manager expected to interpret a player's "flinches", "grimaces", farts, burps, and other subtle sounds or movements as profound signs of an impending requirement to do something?

I hate to say this about Jr, but if it were a no-brainer, then Jr has no brain. Only he knows how his body will react to what his mind tells it to do. An HOFer is responsible for making a decision about his ability to perform.

demas863
09-20-2007, 07:46 PM
A "lack of a decision" as you characterize it, is also a decision to take no action. Players do not have a say in strategic decision-making, thank goodness. Therefore, it is irrelevant what a player thinks about a manager's decision, in fact, most of them do not think about anything further than their next at bat or how they will react to a ball hit in their direction.

Is a manager expected to interpret a player's "flinches", "grimaces", farts, burps, and other subtle sounds or movements as profound signs of an impending requirement to do something?

I hate to say this about Jr, but if it were a no-brainer, then Jr has no brain. Only he knows how his body will react to what his mind tells it to do. An HOFer is responsible for making a decision about his ability to perform.

So you didn't see the game.

demas863
09-20-2007, 07:52 PM
Brantley made an observation, period. Does that elevate his status to genius? Brantley's job is to talk about the game. All the talking heads like to second-guess the manager's decisions.

I'm not saying Brantley is a genius. I'm only saying that he foresaw the inevitable and let us all know. He could have been wrong but he wasn't. Remember we are not talking about a hit-and-run or a squeeze. We're talking about a player's health and future contribution to the team.

demas863
09-20-2007, 07:57 PM
Countless times players flinch, grimace, moan and groan momentarily during games. It is not at all an uncommon occurence. Most of the time they stay in the game and are fine. How many times have you seen a manager or trainer come in and check on a player, then after getting some kind of reassurance from the player that he is ok, allow that player to stay in the game? It happens on hits batsmen. It happens on balls fouled off the player while at-bat. It happens on balls fouled off the catcher. It happens on balls hit through the middle that deflect off a pitcher. It happens on checked swings. It happens when players collide. It happens when players run into the wall. In short, it happens quite often. Should all of those players immediately be pulled out of the game? I guess so if it is such a no-brainer. Hindsight is 20/20.

He wasn't checked. Did you see the game?

Screwball
09-20-2007, 08:05 PM
He wasn't checked. Did you see the game?

So? It's complete speculation that the injury and him wincing after his at-bat are related. In fact, it looks like he's more worried about his hand after his at-bat than he was about hsi lower abdomen.

Basically, to blame the coaching staff for this when Griffey was going to get several days off after a couple more innings against a team contending for the playoffs is just wrong, IMO. It's an unfortunate instance caused by a crappy Wrigley outfield and a frail Jr.

Oh and so you won't have to ask, yes, I did watch the game.

GoReds33
09-20-2007, 10:05 PM
I think this could turn into a positive for the Reds. Certainly he will be shopped in the offseason. Maybe this will give them a little preview of what the team will be like without Griffey.

GoReds33
09-20-2007, 10:11 PM
This might have already been covered, but who is starting for Jr. tonight?

AmarilloRed
09-21-2007, 02:09 AM
Buck Coats.We might see a lot of Buck down the stretch.

demas863
09-21-2007, 01:15 PM
So? It's complete speculation that the injury and him wincing after his at-bat are related. In fact, it looks like he's more worried about his hand after his at-bat than he was about hsi lower abdomen.

Basically, to blame the coaching staff for this when Griffey was going to get several days off after a couple more innings against a team contending for the playoffs is just wrong, IMO. It's an unfortunate instance caused by a crappy Wrigley outfield and a frail Jr.

Oh and so you won't have to ask, yes, I did watch the game.

Glad someone's responding who saw the game. I agree with much of what you say. After the game Griffey did say his groin area had been bothering him for a couple of weeks, but it was something he has been playing through (albeit poorly). I assume that Mack knew about this. The goofy movement of his wrist and forearm, I believe, was a result of a known problem, i.e. the groin, not the wrist. But in either event where were the trainers??? Zambrano leaves gas and six trainers converge on him to check his condition.

You make a good point about the "crappy Wrigley outfield". But isn't that just more evidence, although not conclusive by itself, that under the circumstances he should have been sat? For Pete's sake the man is playing hurt with a groin problem, shows distress at the plate, had been swinging the bat as if it were through water (per Brantley), is playing on dangerous turf, looks exhausted even to a six-year-old (per one poster), has played on a fragile, 37-year-old body more than he has in the last six years and all the manager does is look at his match-up cards. Give me a break. I repeat good managers anticipate, not react. Hopefully Mack learns from this because I like him and I want him to stay on.

The only rationale that I can think of to warrant this bungling conduct is there was concern of getting a call from Bud Selig for not competing against contenders full out. Mack did plan to rest Junior in SF but does that mean he plays against Chicago no matter what his physical condition is or how it changes? I think not.

Well intentioned people can disagree and that's what makes Redzone such a cool site.

jnwohio
09-21-2007, 07:34 PM
With all the going back and forth about who might have or should have done something to avoid this injury consider this.

If the shoe had been on the other foot, that is if the Reds had been the contender and not the would be spoilers, the manager probably would have seen a guy who looked like he could use the rest and held Jr out a game a day or two prior to the injury to keep him sharp for the entire pennant stretch run. However in the thankless situation they were in, the manager felt obliged to put his best "on paper" team onto the field every day they were facing a contender. With a player of the stature and experience of Jr that meant he was going to be in there unless he asked out.

Ultimately it is a player's job to let management know when he is less than 100% or feels he can't go. And in retrospect, I think that is how Jr and Mack saw it and how it was.

RedsMightWin
09-21-2007, 08:03 PM
Griffey is the reason long term contracts are a bad idea

Chi-Town Red
09-22-2007, 07:01 PM
Griffey is the reason long term contracts are a bad ideayou really cant argue with that!