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View Full Version : Ross has to go.



kaldaniels
09-19-2007, 11:54 PM
I know some (BLEEDS) think Ross has the job in 2008 locked up due to the dollars spent on him...but this is ridiculous...the Reds can't keep running him out there. When they went on a good run...remember, it was Javy out there while Ross was on the DL. Javy's no Johnny Bench but jeesh....Ross is killing this team. Untimely K's from many doomed today's game...but Ross had to get the guy in from 3rd with 1 out...and as the ESPN crew pointed out...he just isn't getting it done. And if you are keeping score at home...take 1 point way from WK on the Ross contract. (I've given WK points as well, since overall he has done a decent job in my opinion)

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:00 AM
Maybe if we had a manager that would pinch hit for him in key situations it might now be a problem as much.

Screwball
09-20-2007, 12:02 AM
I've defended the guy for a while, but it's tough to defend this:

.201/.263/.391/.654

Yeah, he's got a little bit of pop when he makes contact (16 HRs in 299 ABs), but when you're only getting on base at a miserable .263 clip, you're probably just trying to go deep everytime at the plate, no matter the situation. I understand he's got a great arm to control to opposing running game, but sheesh, I don't see how that makes up for his terrible, terrible offensive campaign this year.

kaldaniels
09-20-2007, 12:04 AM
You know...I got fed up tonight and threw this thread up...without really weighing his defense/managing pitchers into the equation...but I really feel you can't justify his numbers at the plate the more and more I think about it.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:12 AM
Nah there is no excuse or defending how bad hes been at the plate.

AmarilloRed
09-20-2007, 02:19 AM
David Ross has been terrible this year, but does anyone think he is simply underachieving this year? He hit over .300 during part of last year, but he finally finished with a .255 BA. This year he is hitting.201. It may be when everything balances out he will be a .230 hitter. In any case, he has never got over 500 ABs in a year, and their may be sample size issues. David Ross is not a starting catcher , but he will be on the team because of his contract.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 09:50 AM
Maybe if we had a manager that would pinch hit for him in key situations it might now be a problem as much.

The manager's decision whether to pinch hit for Ross did not cause the Reds to lose. How about JR's 3Ks and 4LOB? (hate to seem like I'm picking on him, but facts are facts)

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 09:59 AM
The manager's decision whether to pinch hit for Ross did not cause the Reds to lose. How about JR's 3Ks and 4LOB? (hate to seem like I'm picking on him, but facts are facts)

It didnt cause them to lose but it sure didnt help them win any. Both parts sucked but that doesnt excuse one or the other. The manager is out there to give the team every chance they have to win. Pete keeps missing his chances.

Its a little easier to handle a bad game by a player but there is no excuse for bad games from managers.

UK Reds Fan
09-20-2007, 10:04 AM
1. Bottomline...just about any AAA catcher could produce similar results at the plate as Ross for league minimum.

2. The part that I don't agree with many is this concept that Ross handles the pitching staff better than Javy....The only pitcher worth a box or rocks this year was Harang. Aaron was good when he pitched to LaRue a few years back and probably just as good when he pitched to Javy. Arroyo stumbled this year, Belisle was way up and down, etc..

3. The BP, we all know how that part of the pitching staff ended up.

4. Ross is a good throwing catcher, but that skill is greatly diminished due to hardly anyone runs for a significant amount of thier run production anymore.

So in the end, Wayne did overpay for Ross, when he could have leveraged Ross to a lower contract or simply opt for a Jorgenson, Sardinha RH catcher to compliment next to Javy.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 10:15 AM
It didnt cause them to lose but it sure didnt help them win any. Both parts sucked but that doesnt excuse one or the other. The manager is out there to give the team every chance they have to win. Pete keeps missing his chances.

Its a little easier to handle a bad game by a player but there is no excuse for bad games from managers.

Every inning has its lost opportunities - not just one play, one decision, or one individual's poor game performance.

How can you say poor performance by a player is easier to handle? The players determine the outcome by their performance - all nine players - in fact the entire roster determines the outcome.

The manager does not strike out three times in one game leaving four men on base. The manager doesn't fail to drive in a runner from third. The manager doesn't wave a runner from third to be thrown out by ten steps. And so on.......

This manager does not offer excuses. He has to play the players he thinks will perform any given day. You have no idea how many variables go into making out a daily lineup and managing a game. And know some posters what the manager to watch for flinches on which to base his decisions.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 10:30 AM
Every inning has its lost opportunities - not just one play, one decision, or one individual's poor game performance.

How can you say poor performance by a player is easier to handle? The players determine the outcome by their performance - all nine players - in fact the entire roster determines the outcome.

The manager does not strike out three times in one game leaving four men on base. The manager doesn't fail to drive in a runner from third. The manager doesn't wave a runner from third to be thrown out by ten steps. And so on.......

This manager does not offer excuses. He has to play the players he thinks will perform any given day. You have no idea how many variables go into making out a daily lineup and managing a game. And know some posters what the manager to watch for flinches on which to base his decisions.

Its easier for me to handle a bad game from a player because he is competing against another player. The manager is only competing against himself.

Both are bad but the player is out there getting struck out by someone. Bad games are bound to happen for players. Managers really shouldn't have bad games in my mind.

Petes form of managing is killing me. He seems to play for future scenarios instead of going out and getting the runs that are on the base paths. I just dont understand his logic.

StrikeIndicator
09-20-2007, 10:30 AM
You know...I got fed up tonight and threw this thread up...without really weighing his defense/managing pitchers into the equation...but I really feel you can't justify his numbers at the plate the more and more I think about it.

I have said it before and will say it again here, his much vaunted defense often comes at a great expense both to the pitcher's era and the final box score :confused:

With runners in stealing position he too often sets up on the outside of the plate (right handers) so that he gets that extra leverage and jump to throw to second. Where it works, he looks like a great defensive catcher.

The scouting reports on him tells the hitters to sit back and wait on this pitch and the next thing you know 1 or 2 runs have scored.

Pitcher gets the blame.:thumbdown

A few weeks ago Javy called for an inside curve ball on an obvious stealing count/situation. The pitcher threw it, struck out the batter for out number 2out and the runner went to 2nd base.
The other team announcers made a big point of how important (and unselfish) it was for the catcher to sacriface his stats for the good of the team. :beerme:

Ross would never have called for that pitch.

If all you are looking at is post game stats Ross's stand out as a good-very good defensive catcher.
If you watch game films, you see an entirely different picture. You see a catcher who is more concerned about the runner stealing 2nd than the batter getting a hit for extra bases and/or RBI's and you see a catcher is early in the season would not call inside pitches for the guys out of the Pen, which IMHO contributed to a number of blown saves and a great deal of criticism of the bull pen.

Our best runs of the season came when Ross wasn't catching every game.

While they still play him more than I think they should, maybe the FO sees this to and that is why their first round pick in the draft was a catcher.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 10:41 AM
Petes form of managing is killing me. He seems to play for future scenarios instead of going out and getting the runs that are on the base paths. I just dont understand his logic.

How does Pete's logic not get the runs that are on the base paths? Your logic is contradictory. Pete's decisions do not strike out three times or leave four runners on base.

Perhaps the fact that you do not understand his logic is why you and others second guess every decision a manager makes.

A manager must play for the next hitter, next inning, several innings ahead. You seem to want a manager to play for the moment rather than the combination of the large numbers of variables thar are invoolved in decision making.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 11:19 AM
How does Pete's logic not get the runs that are on the base paths? Your logic is contradictory. Pete's decisions do not strike out three times or leave four runners on base.

Perhaps the fact that you do not understand his logic is why you and others second guess every decision a manager makes.

A manager must play for the next hitter, next inning, several innings ahead. You seem to want a manager to play for the moment rather than the combination of the large numbers of variables thar are invoolved in decision making.

So you think saving Javy to pinch hit in the 9th with no one on is better than using him in the 7th with 1 out and runners on 1st and 3rd is a good thing?

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 11:28 AM
So you think saving Javy to pinch hit in the 9th with no one on is better than using him in the 7th with 1 out and runners on 1st and 3rd is a good thing?

I don't analyze single decisions a manager makes during the game.

Here is a challenge - analyze every decision the manager makes during the course of every game, rather than cherry picking the few that you think support your point as a certified critic of baseball managers.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 11:35 AM
Here is a challenge - analyze every decision the manager makes during the course of every game, rather than cherry picking the few that you think support your point as a certified critic of baseball managers.

So you are in fact saying it was the right move?

Its wrong that I question a managers moves but its right that you bash a guy for striking out 3 times? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to get at.

Griffey striking out 3 times sucks but why the heck do I have to chose between the two?

Are you related to Pete or something?

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 12:09 PM
So you are in fact saying it was the right move?

Its wrong that I question a managers moves but its right that you bash a guy for striking out 3 times? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to get at.

Griffey striking out 3 times sucks but why the heck do I have to chose between the two?

Are you related to Pete or something?

I would not say whether a manager's decision is "the right move". Only the outcome determines that after it happens. The point is, you can not cherry pick a manager's decisions and second guess every move he makes. And you do not have to "choose" between two unrelated events.

I am not bashing Jr either, that's a false characterization.

The players directly impact the game with every action they make, whether it is striking out three times, making a base running mistake, an error, hitting a bomb onto Sheffield Ave., pitching seven quality innings, or any number of individual efforts.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 12:15 PM
so Jerry Narron pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton wasnt stupid its just people cherry picking?

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 12:37 PM
so Jerry Narron pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton wasnt stupid its just people cherry picking?

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

To characterize a decision as stupid is unfair and can only be done after the fact. At the time, JN thought it was the right thing to do. We can never know an alternate outcome because Josh did not get the opportunity to perform, that's all.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 04:02 PM
I assume that's a rhetorical question.

To characterize a decision as stupid is unfair and can only be done after the fact. At the time, JN thought it was the right thing to do. We can never know an alternate outcome because Josh did not get the opportunity to perform, that's all.

So managers should never get criticized since we would never know the alternate outcome?

AmarilloRed
09-20-2007, 04:19 PM
I would imagine that Ross will stay on the team because of his contract; he may not be a starter next year though

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 04:25 PM
So managers should never get criticized since we would never know the alternate outcome?

To criticize is to find fault with, or to point out a flaw. It becomes apparent only after the fact that if a decision does not return a positive outcome it can be called a flawed decision. No manager intentionally makes a flawed decision.

Perhaps we do not always agree with a manager's decisions. It is too easy, and unfair, to find fault with his decisions, since we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 04:49 PM
To criticize is to find fault with, or to point out a flaw. It becomes apparent only after the fact that if a decision does not return a positive outcome it can be called a flawed decision. No manager intentionally makes a flawed decision.

Perhaps we do not always agree with a manager's decisions. It is too easy, and unfair, to find fault with his decisions, since we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.

So managers should never be fired since we can never find fault in any of their choices no matter what they are. Managers make mistakes all the time but since we cant tell if the mistake will have any different of an outcome than the other choice we should just say oh well it was the better idea.

When David Ross came up last night with runners on 1st and 3rd you better believe I thought it was wrong for Javy to not be batting.

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 05:42 PM
So managers should never be fired since we can never find fault in any of their choices no matter what they are. Managers make mistakes all the time but since we cant tell if the mistake will have any different of an outcome than the other choice we should just say oh well it was the better idea.

When David Ross came up last night with runners on 1st and 3rd you better believe I thought it was wrong for Javy to not be batting.

Managers generally get fired because their teams do not perform up to their potential. You can't fire the team, so the manager goes. You stated an absolute, ironically I think, "managers should never be fired" that is illogical. Sometimes change is necessary. A decision is determined to be a mistake because the players involved did not execute. Ross did not execute. Perhaps other factors, of which you have no knowledge, were working to keep Javy from batting. We do not know.

GoReds33
09-20-2007, 05:45 PM
I think he will be the starter next year. If someone is willing to give up something decent for him I would have no problem with Javy starting, and Perez coming up and being a backup.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 06:00 PM
Managers generally get fired because their teams do not perform up to their potential. You can't fire the team, so the manager goes. You stated an absolute, ironically I think, "managers should never be fired" that is illogical. Sometimes change is necessary. A decision is determined to be a mistake because the players involved did not execute. Ross did not execute. Perhaps other factors, of which you have no knowledge, were working to keep Javy from batting. We do not know.

So managers never make mistakes

Noted thanks

ThirdBaseCoach
09-20-2007, 06:04 PM
So managers never make mistakes

Noted thanks

I am glad you finally see the light, RMW.

RedsMightWin
09-20-2007, 06:08 PM
I dont see the so called light. I am just tired of your opinion on it.

jnwohio
09-20-2007, 07:52 PM
There has been a lot of talk about the Reds taking looks at players (or mostly not taking looks at players) with an eye to the future.

It was painfull to see Ross last nite against the Cubs and also earlier against the Brewers (bases loaded DP to end inning); but maybe Pete stuck with Ross because those were situations where the everyday catcher has to to get the job done. BY not getting it done, Ross was telliing the club plenty about himself in regard to the future.

DannyB
09-20-2007, 09:01 PM
I have said it before and will say it again here, his much vaunted defense often comes at a great expense both to the pitcher's era and the final box score :confused:

With runners in stealing position he too often sets up on the outside of the plate (right handers) so that he gets that extra leverage and jump to throw to second. Where it works, he looks like a great defensive catcher.

The scouting reports on him tells the hitters to sit back and wait on this pitch and the next thing you know 1 or 2 runs have scored.

Pitcher gets the blame.:thumbdown

A few weeks ago Javy called for an inside curve ball on an obvious stealing count/situation. The pitcher threw it, struck out the batter for out number 2out and the runner went to 2nd base.
The other team announcers made a big point of how important (and unselfish) it was for the catcher to sacriface his stats for the good of the team. :beerme:

Ross would never have called for that pitch.

If all you are looking at is post game stats Ross's stand out as a good-very good defensive catcher.
If you watch game films, you see an entirely different picture. You see a catcher who is more concerned about the runner stealing 2nd than the batter getting a hit for extra bases and/or RBI's and you see a catcher is early in the season would not call inside pitches for the guys out of the Pen, which IMHO contributed to a number of blown saves and a great deal of criticism of the bull pen.

Our best runs of the season came when Ross wasn't catching every game.

While they still play him more than I think they should, maybe the FO sees this to and that is why their first round pick in the draft was a catcher.

Thank you
I could have never said all that