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View Full Version : Since 1977, only one player has cracked the REDS Top-10 in Total Bases.



Eric_Davis
09-22-2007, 01:06 AM
That would be Dave Parker's 350 Total Bases in 1985.

The Top-Ten All-Time Single-Season Records for Total Bases by a Cincinnati RED since 1870:

Total Bases

Rank Player............. TB...... Year
1.... George Foster..... 388...... 1977
2.... Frank Robinson.... 380...... 1962
3.... Ted Kluszewski.... 368...... 1954
4.... Ted Kluszewski.... 358...... 1955
5.... Johnny Bench...... 355...... 1970
6.... Dave Parker........ 350...... 1985
7.... Tony Perez......... 346...... 1970
8.... Wally Post.......... 345...... 1955
9.... Vada Pinson........ 335...... 1963
10.. Frank Robinson..... 333...... 1961


Brandon Phillips has a chance, though a small one, to be only the 2nd Player to crack this list since 1977.

Through Thursday's game Phillips had 307 Total Bases. He needs 26 Total Bases over the last 9 games to tie for 10th. He's 0-3 tonight.

Add his Gold Glove play at 2nd Base and his 30+ Stolen Bases (with 80% success rate), and his 12 HBP's and shows what a special season he is having.

redsfan4445
09-22-2007, 09:08 AM
i think if the Reds would have won the division, Brandon gets MVP votes!!

AtomicDumpling
09-22-2007, 02:35 PM
It is neat to see Phillips reaching the heights that only superstar players have reached. We have heard him compared to 2B Joe Morgan a lot recently. Now he is being compared to other truly awesome players at other positions.

Adam Dunn is only 20 TB behind Phillips despite having 109 fewer at-bats. If you factor walks into the equation Dunn has 389 total bases to 341 for Phillips. If you also add in stolen bases minus caught stealing then Dunn has 396 and Phillips has 365.

If you really want to go crazy you can factor in sac bunts, sac flies, hit-by-pitches, reaching 1B after a strikeout, and grounding into double plays. Sacrifices advance another runner at your expense, so in effect you "gained" a total base for the team. Hitting into double plays causes a loss of a total base that someone else gained (you made 2 outs in one plate appearance), so it makes sense to deduct one from the hitters total as a penalty. Factoring in these numbers makes the totals 393 for Dunn and 358 for Phillips.

Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk. So using TB as a barometer of performance tends to inflate the value of low-OBP guys at the expense of players that frequently walk (and are therefore less likely to make outs).

Why shouldn't a walk count as a "total base" gained?

Historically the walk was usually viewed as a failure for the pitcher rather than a success for the hitter. In recent years, sabermetric analysis has proven the value of the walk as a tool for producing runs. Teams that walk a lot tend to score more runs.

The walk is not just an accident anymore -- it is a worthy goal in itself for a plate appearance, and is an effective tool for hitters to use to increase their offensive production.

We as educated observers of the game should gravitate toward statistics that credit players appropriately for walking. Batting average and total bases are seriously flawed statistics due to their lack of credit for walks. (of course batting average has other major flaws too).

dougdirt
09-22-2007, 03:26 PM
Total bases isn't a flawed stat, it just can't be looked at by itself to determine the value of a player.

BoydsOfSummer
09-22-2007, 06:43 PM
Three hunnerd bases is strong anytime. Total bases+walks rate is a nice stat and paints a better picture.

Improving his walk rate will put him in elite status. If he improves it enough he'll be in Little Joe territory. I believe he will as he matures as a player, although not in Morgan's class. Improving his plate discipline can only elevate his game.

Chip R
09-22-2007, 07:58 PM
Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk.


That's crazy.

KronoRed
09-23-2007, 12:58 AM
That's crazy.

It's ridiculous, a walk is a BASE on balls, and it doesn't count?

:confused:

Eric_Davis
09-23-2007, 01:38 AM
It is neat to see Phillips reaching the heights that only superstar players have reached. We have heard him compared to 2B Joe Morgan a lot recently. Now he is being compared to other truly awesome players at other positions.

Adam Dunn is only 20 TB behind Phillips despite having 109 fewer at-bats. If you factor walks into the equation Dunn has 389 total bases to 341 for Phillips. If you also add in stolen bases minus caught stealing then Dunn has 396 and Phillips has 365.

If you really want to go crazy you can factor in sac bunts, sac flies, hit-by-pitches, reaching 1B after a strikeout, and grounding into double plays. Sacrifices advance another runner at your expense, so in effect you "gained" a total base for the team. Hitting into double plays causes a loss of a total base that someone else gained (you made 2 outs in one plate appearance), so it makes sense to deduct one from the hitters total as a penalty. Factoring in these numbers makes the totals 393 for Dunn and 358 for Phillips.

Total Bases as a stat does not include bases gained by the walk. So using TB as a barometer of performance tends to inflate the value of low-OBP guys at the expense of players that frequently walk (and are therefore less likely to make outs).

Why shouldn't a walk count as a "total base" gained?

Historically the walk was usually viewed as a failure for the pitcher rather than a success for the hitter. In recent years, sabermetric analysis has proven the value of the walk as a tool for producing runs. Teams that walk a lot tend to score more runs.

The walk is not just an accident anymore -- it is a worthy goal in itself for a plate appearance, and is an effective tool for hitters to use to increase their offensive production.

We as educated observers of the game should gravitate toward statistics that credit players appropriately for walking. Batting average and total bases are seriously flawed statistics due to their lack of credit for walks. (of course batting average has other major flaws too).

Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?

AtomicDumpling
09-23-2007, 02:51 AM
Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?

I wasn't arguing or criticizing anything. I praised Phillips in the first paragraph and agreed with you that Phillips is having an awesome year comparable to many Reds greats. Then I said Dunn is also having an excellent season, especially when the bases obtained via walk are factored in as they should be. No argument, no criticism anywhere.

Chip R
09-23-2007, 11:44 AM
Dude! Who cares? I'm just talking about Total Bases. I'm not looking for a frickin' argument. Can't a guy (Phillips) get a little praise without someone criticizing the praise?


Room 12A is Argument. If you want Abuse you have to go to Room 12.

http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/argument.jpg

westofyou
09-23-2007, 12:11 PM
Though it doesn't count walks, it's not hard to see that getting them more then average helps out a hitter in the long run, another note on that TB total, the high point for the stat occurs during the biggest hitting eras, the 20's 30's and 2001.

Check out #10... anomaly?


TOTAL BASES YEAR TB BB
1 Babe Ruth 1921 457 100
2 Rogers Hornsby 1922 450 20
3 Lou Gehrig 1927 447 57
4 Chuck Klein 1930 445 4
5 Jimmie Foxx 1932 438 62
6 Stan Musial 1948 429 22
7 Sammy Sosa 2001 425 63
8 Hack Wilson 1930 423 56
9 Chuck Klein 1932 420 16
T10 Lou Gehrig 1930 419 51
T10 Luis Gonzalez 2001 419 44


The seventies was a different era, less guys walked and only one player topped 400 TB (in a park built in 1912)


SEASON
1970-1979
WALKS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TOTAL BASES YEAR TB BB
1 Jim Rice 1978 406 -1
2 George Foster 1977 388 3
3 Jim Rice 1977 382 -3
4 Billy Williams 1970 373 10
5 Jim Rice 1979 369 2
6 George Brett 1979 363 -5
7 Johnny Bench 1970 355 -9
8 Joe Torre 1971 352 11
9 Rod Carew 1977 351 21
10 Billy Williams 1972 348 11

And the past 7 season


SEASON
2000-2006
WALKS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TOTAL BASES YEAR TB BB
1 Sammy Sosa 2001 425 63
2 Luis Gonzalez 2001 419 44
3 Barry Bonds 2001 411 134
4 Todd Helton 2000 405 46
5 Todd Helton 2001 402 44
6 Albert Pujols 2003 394 27
T7 Alex Rodriguez 2001 393 20
T7 Derrek Lee 2005 393 32
T9 Alex Rodriguez 2002 389 32
T9 Albert Pujols 2004 389 27