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sonny
09-23-2007, 03:29 PM
Thoughts?

Seahawks 34
Bengals 30

Chuck Bresnahan will be fired tomorrow.

Matt700wlw
09-23-2007, 03:30 PM
Chuck Bresnahan will be fired tomorrow.

No he won't.

WMR
09-23-2007, 03:33 PM
Bengals 49 Seahawks 45

WMR
09-23-2007, 03:34 PM
Now watch this one somehow be a defense struggle. :laugh:

WVRed
09-23-2007, 03:46 PM
Chuck Bresnahan will be fired tomorrow.

If he wasnt fired after the abysmal performance last week, Id say he is here until the end of the season.

KronoRed
09-23-2007, 03:53 PM
First team to 50 again?

cincy jacket
09-23-2007, 05:05 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!! Gus Johnson. Prepare yourselves for screaming about the most routine things. If he had done the game last week he would have died from a stroke about halfway into the 3rd quarter.

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:08 PM
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good ole BUNGLES!! :lol: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

Oxilon
09-23-2007, 05:10 PM
People can blame the defense for our problems, and rightfully so, but it certainly doesn't help when your special teams lets your opponents start from great field position every drive.

macro
09-23-2007, 05:17 PM
...and the march toward another 8-8 record continues. Yay Bengals. The videotaping Patriots will send them down to 1-3 next Monday night.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 05:25 PM
Rudi Johnson is awful. I wish that we could get a backup healthy and start the transition to someone else. I'm tired of the 2.5 yards per carry.

cincy jacket
09-23-2007, 05:25 PM
I am man enough to admit it..... I LOVE CARSON PALMER

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:27 PM
TJ shushing the crowd was awesome.

guttle11
09-23-2007, 05:27 PM
This team is bi-polar. Three penalties, 3rd and longs everywhere, and they still score.

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:28 PM
Rudi Johnson is awful. I wish that we could get a backup healthy and start the transition to someone else. I'm tired of the 2.5 yards per carry.

Josh: What about your Cards??? :eek:

Falls City Beer
09-23-2007, 05:28 PM
Trouble is with going 1-3 is that it starts to build negative inertia. Then going 8-8 becomes a massive hill to climb instead of something to be counted on. If the Bengals go 1-3 to start the season, I think you've got to believe Murphy's Law kicks in to send them to a losing record.

Oxilon
09-23-2007, 05:34 PM
Has it been noted that we have absolutely no pass rush. It's so bad, you really can't even blame the secondary.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 05:35 PM
Josh: What about your Cards??? :eek:

They're awful. Its scary how my favorite college team resembles my favorite NFL team (Bengals). All offense and pathetic defense. After a year of watching this I won't be able to remember what defense looks like.

MWM
09-23-2007, 05:45 PM
1 - How can the kick coverage be THIS bad. Covering kicks is all about coaching.

2 - Carson Palmer is SO freaking good it's ridiculous.

guttle11
09-23-2007, 05:47 PM
Bipolar.

TJ fumbles and Leon takes it right back with an INT.

guttle11
09-23-2007, 05:49 PM
Remember when Rudi used to run people over?

I wish he'd start doing that again instead of trying to be Barry Sanders.

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:53 PM
Remember when Rudi used to run people over?

I wish he'd start doing that again instead of trying to be Barry Sanders.

RBs become "past it" so abruptly in the NFL... not saying that Rudi is at that point, but he SHOULD NOT be trying to run to the outside on a misdirection play, especially against a fast, ball-hawking defense like Seattle.

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:54 PM
When did our special teams go from a strength to a weakness????

WMR
09-23-2007, 05:54 PM
Imagine if we still had Ohalete instead of Madieu. :eek:

CTA513
09-23-2007, 05:54 PM
Remember when Rudi used to run people over?

I wish he'd start doing that again instead of trying to be Barry Sanders.

Its hard to run when you are getting tackled behind the line.

WMR
09-23-2007, 06:00 PM
Stoopid Bengals... ENOUGH WITH THE FALSE STARTS!!!

WMR
09-23-2007, 06:00 PM
Another slow-developing sweep to the outside for Rudi that is absolutely demolished for a loss.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 06:01 PM
Rudi is doing his best to maintain his 0.0 ypc average.

CTA513
09-23-2007, 06:07 PM
Rudi is doing his best to maintain his 0.0 ypc average.

Better play calling would stop that.

Oxilon
09-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Wow, is it possible that Justin Smith is our worse starter on the D-Line. Seriously, Michael Moore has outperformed all season long.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Better play calling would stop that.

You really think that Rudi is still a 100 yd/game back? You have more confidence than I do. The decline began last year and continues this year. He had a good run but I'm afraid his days of being a top back are behind him.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 06:16 PM
There's the pass defense we know!

MWM
09-23-2007, 06:19 PM
There's no way I'm watching next week. They're going to lose by 30 points. The Patriots are going to score at will on the Bengals defense.

WMR
09-23-2007, 06:26 PM
What's worse, our secondary or our d-line?

joshnky
09-23-2007, 06:28 PM
What's worse, our secondary or our d-line?

or our line backers? or our kick coverage? or everything except our passing game and kicker?

guttle11
09-23-2007, 06:33 PM
Seattle is not very good. Penalties and turnovers are keeping the Bengals from having a 10-14 point lead.

WMR
09-23-2007, 06:34 PM
I wish we could just skip next week's game.

WMR
09-23-2007, 06:35 PM
Seattle is not very good. Penalties and turnovers are keeping the Bengals from having a 10-14 point lead.

And they're one of the 'better' teams in the NFC... god the NFC sucks... wish we were in it.

Hoosier Red
09-23-2007, 06:57 PM
ugh, another pick, Carson's had better games.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 07:24 PM
Its good to see Kenny Watson get some carries. At least he has some burst that Rudi is lacking.

WMR
09-23-2007, 07:31 PM
This Gus dude is really exhausting to listen to... every play is Flutie's hail mary for BC.

Hoosier Red
09-23-2007, 07:35 PM
On Natl radio, they said Watson's getting some carries because Rudi has a Hamstring injury.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 07:38 PM
On Natl radio, they said Watson's getting some carries because Rudi has a Hamstring injury.

I hate to see Rudi get hurt but at least Kenny is delivering some positive yardage.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 07:40 PM
The defense has done its part in the second half. Now its up to Carson to deliver the game. 6 minutes and only down by two seems very manageable for this high powered offense.

WMR
09-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Okay: Someone explain to me why they went for 2... if they kicked the PAT, they would then only need a FG to win if Seattle scored a TD...

joshnky
09-23-2007, 07:51 PM
Okay: Someone explain to me why they went for 2... if they kicked the PAT, they would then only need a FG to win if Seattle scored a TD...

I'm not watching the game. How did Jeff Rowe score a touchdown?

macro
09-23-2007, 07:51 PM
Exactly, WilyMo. HUGE blunder there! As you said, if Seattle now scores a TD and extra point, the best the Bengals can do is tie. With that one-point extra, they'd be in position to win. Stupid decision!

macro
09-23-2007, 07:54 PM
Steve Tasker just tried to explain why he agreed with going for two, and he sounded like a buffoon. His explanation included something about "if the Bengals block the extra point..."

texasdave
09-23-2007, 07:54 PM
Marvin Lewis strikes again. Geez.

WMR
09-23-2007, 07:56 PM
Steve Tasker just tried to explain why he agreed with going for two, and he sounded like a buffoon. His explanation included something about "if the Bengals block the extra point..."

His explanation was retarded.

You're going to bet on blocking an extra point and take away the opportunity to win the game by kicking a field goal?

Asinine.

Reds Fanatic
09-23-2007, 07:57 PM
That ruling is ridiculous. That was a complete pass and a 10 yard loss.

Chip R
09-23-2007, 07:58 PM
Bengals got screwed on that one.

WMR
09-23-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm not watching the game. How did Jeff Rowe score a touchdown?

Jeff Rowe??

Kenny Watson ran one in for the Bengals.

Hoosier Red
09-23-2007, 08:00 PM
I think they're banking on not getting the ball back one way or another. I'm not sure I agree with that though.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 08:01 PM
Jeff Rowe??

Kenny Watson ran one in for the Bengals.

Stupid Gamecenter. I was so confused about how the backup QB could score a rushing TD.

macro
09-23-2007, 08:01 PM
Like we said, now they're down three instead of two. :rolleyes:

MWM
09-23-2007, 08:01 PM
How was that NOT a catch by Hasselback? I don't get it.

WMR
09-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Exactly, WilyMo. HUGE blunder there! As you said, if Seattle now scores a TD and extra point, the best the Bengals can do is tie. With that one-point extra, they'd be in position to win. Stupid decision!

Wow, great decision Marvin you retard.

Maybe I should coach the Bengals.

Playadlc
09-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Seriously, Marvin needs to go.

He is the only coach in the NFL that goes for two there. And now a field goal only ties it.

MWM
09-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Was there ever a doubt Seattle was going to score that drive? That's what I hate about watching the Bengals with this defense. There was no doubt in my mind they were going to score there.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 08:03 PM
One minute left, down by three. This is why Palmer is payed the big bucks. Thats plenty of time to get at least a FG attempt.

MWM
09-23-2007, 08:03 PM
It's official. The Bungles are back.

WMR
09-23-2007, 08:03 PM
Oh well, guess it doesn't matter now. :lol:

Playadlc
09-23-2007, 08:04 PM
I hate this team.

MWM
09-23-2007, 08:06 PM
LMAO. That's all you can do. I see a 6-10 team this year. And it might even be worse. And they'll probably draft another RB or DB in the first round.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 08:06 PM
Their ineptitude is amazing. Even Carson contributed today with two bad interceptions.

KronoRed
09-23-2007, 08:07 PM
Can always tell when the Bengals lose, guy down the street screams then jumps in his car to drive it off I guess.

Playadlc
09-23-2007, 08:07 PM
I am no longer giving Marvin Lewis a free pass. He makes some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen by an NFL coach.

Going for two there? Any idiot can see that is not a good idea, except Marvin.

Reds4Life
09-23-2007, 08:07 PM
Seattle even has hotter cheerleaders than we do. :(

I'll be at the Monday night game against New England, I guess I'll get to see us fall to 1-3. Ugh.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 08:09 PM
I am no longer giving Marvin Lewis a free pass. He makes some of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen by an NFL coach.

Going for two there? Any idiot can see that is not a good idea, except Marvin.

Maybe he thought they might fumble the return and was hoping the conversion combined with a blocked extra point would send them to overtime. :dunno:

WMR
09-23-2007, 08:09 PM
Seattle even has hotter cheerleaders than we do. :(

I'll be at the Monday night game against New England, I guess I'll get to see us fall to 1-3. Ugh.

I NOTICED THAT!

They have the hottest cheerleaders I've seen (at least the ones they showed on camera).

MrCinatit
09-23-2007, 08:11 PM
I said it last week, and I will say it again this week - the Bengals are the present day Minnesota Vikings. Great offense, pathetic everywhere else.

joshnky
09-23-2007, 08:13 PM
After today I really hope we see Kenny Watson get a few more carries. Him and Rudi could form a decent tandem with their opposite styles. The only team Rudi can run against is the Browns.

Oxilon
09-23-2007, 08:15 PM
I still can't get over that horrible call by the refs. They basically saved the two minute warning and a sack for the Seahawks. It would have been a completely different situation and would have put the Seahawks in a huge call.

guttle11
09-23-2007, 08:17 PM
How can a professional football team be so inept at things they teach you in pee-wee football?

Everyone is to blame for this loss. The entire coaching staff and every player down the line. It took a total team effort not to win that game.

WVRed
09-23-2007, 08:25 PM
I think we see the reason why Kenny Irons was drafted. I know he got injured, but Rudi isnt getting any younger. That being said, I don't see Watson being anything more than a split-carry back.

I'm starting to think that if this team underachieves again this season, injuries or not, Marvin should go. Think Tony Dungy for a minute. The guy has restored the franchise and should be given the key to the city, but he has yet to get them over the hump and contending on a regular basis in the playoffs. The Bucs had the same situation, let Dungy go, and with the small time frame they had left, got Jon Gruden to lead them to a Super Bowl ring.

The only difference between the Bengals and Bucs though is ownership. The Glazers went after the high profile candidate, while I fear that if Marvin is let go, SoP will likely go after some retread coach similar to what San Diego did with Norv Turner.

Another thing that concerns me is Carson Palmer maturing into a fourth quarter QB. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember him making any fourth quarter comebacks to win a game. I know Glenn Holt ruined the chance today, but I am thinking about last weeks game against Cleveland. Anytime Palmer has had a chance to lead the team downfield, he chokes.

I was thinking this team would go 8-8 again, which is unacceptable, but if they go 6-10 or worse, something REALLY needs to be done.

Playadlc
09-23-2007, 08:30 PM
Palmer led the Bengals to a touchdown with 3 minutes left in the game to take the lead.

RedsMightWin
09-23-2007, 08:32 PM
It's official. The Bungles are back.

Michigan lol

LawFive
09-23-2007, 08:41 PM
, Another thing that concerns me is Carson Palmer maturing into a fourth quarter QB. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember him making any fourth quarter comebacks to win a game. Anytime Palmer has had a chance to lead the team downfield, he chokes.


At Baltimore, 2005, comes immediately to mind. I'm fairly sure there are others.

WVRed
09-23-2007, 08:51 PM
At Baltimore, 2005, comes immediately to mind. I'm fairly sure there are others.

True, forgot about that one.

gilpdawg
09-23-2007, 09:01 PM
This team reminds me of the 2001 Indy Colts (Mora's PLAYOFFS? remark came from that team.) Great offense, but couldn't stop anybody, and shot themselves in the foot every time possible. Manning had 23 picks that year. Edge blew out his knee. Bad season all around for a Colts fan like myself. That season hurt more than some of the 1-15 or 3-13 seasons because you KNEW they were better than that.

That's your 2007 Bengals. You guys deserve better. It's been hard to be a Bengal fan the last what, 16 years or so? I know I had some hard years, (Jeff George, anyone?) but this is ridiculous.

Redsfaithful
09-23-2007, 09:20 PM
There's no point in even discussing Marvin Lewis. Seriously, it doesn't even matter. Mike Brown gave Shula five years, how many years of 8-8 would it take for him to fire Marvin Lewis?

I don't think 8-8 would ever get a coach fired in Cincinnati. Probably not 6-10 or 7-9 either, and if you look at the Bengals schedule there is really no way they don't win at least six or seven games. Seriously, the last two weeks have been frustrating but they've been in every game this year, and while I expect that to change after next week I do think there are going to be plenty of wins to secure Marvin Lewis' job.

They honestly could probably go 3-13 and not see a coaching change. Mike Brown isn't someone who makes quick decisions, h has to be the most loyal owner in football. Unless Marvin starts putting up multiple 3-13s (unlikely with Carson Palmer here for the next decade or so) he's going to be the coach for a good long time regardless of fan opinion.

That said, this does suck, and I really don't understand going for two today, even though it ended up not mattering.

Caveat Emperor
09-23-2007, 09:31 PM
Here's what gets me -- Palmer looked all-world in the first half. At one point he was 14-15 and had hit on 10 consecutive passes. I think he finished the half at 15-20. Second half, he looked thoroughly mediocre and was barely a 50% passer at 12-23.

Like two different quarterbacks from 1st to 2nd half. Seattle clearly made the correct defensive adjustment and the Bengals had no answer.

MWM
09-23-2007, 09:32 PM
What's most discouraging is that they're not just a player or two away on defense. They are light years away from respectability. They have few players that would get much playing time on a decent defense. They need a complete overhaul and in the NFL, trading is not going to get you what you need in return.

traderumor
09-23-2007, 09:35 PM
One of the things I have been stewing on since reading the excuses given by Bresnihan and Lewis for last week's defensive debacle is that they claim that it was blown assignments (duh) and guys out of position (another duh). Bresnihan was asked if it was fixable, he said it was. Today, the D was improved, but why I do not know. Same personnel, same scheme. So why were they better today, and what was Bresnihan doing in camp and practice the week before the Browns' game? Why couldn't he communicate changes to them during the game?

In other words, all the explanations did was attempt to say "basically, our players were confused and had no idea what they were doing" in a way that made it sound like the players' responsibility. But it seems to me that the coach's job is to educate his players in such a way that they are not confused and know what they are doing. It is not a talent issue to see guys go running past dbacks into unmanned zones week after week.

But, are we gonna see "Marvin will be fired" after each loss? I mean, I suppose you have a 50/50 chance of being right, but...

Caveat Emperor
09-23-2007, 09:38 PM
What's most discouraging is that they're not just a player or two away on defense. They are light years away from respectability. They have few players that would get much playing time on a decent defense. They need a complete overhaul and in the NFL, trading is not going to get you what you need in return.

Four names for Bengals fans to remember: Odell Thurman, David Pollack, Chris Perry, Kenny Irons.

Thats 4 draft selections that aren't contributing on defense for one reason or another -- in the case of the latter two, because the team inexplicably decided not to draft defensive help.

Redsfaithful
09-23-2007, 09:41 PM
Not a defensive issue, but I really can't wait to get Chris Henry back. The lack of a good third receiver is really hurting because everything has to go to TJ and Chad, and it's not helping their special teams to have Skylar Green and Glenn Holt playing on offense as well as special teams.

Screwball
09-23-2007, 09:52 PM
in the case of the latter two, because the team inexplicably decided not to draft defensive help.

Inexplicably? Hardly. I think the difference we saw between Rudi's rushes and Kenny's rushes today were a great example of why they drafted Perry and Irons. The change of pace back allows the Bengals to be more effective while rushing the ball, thus keeping the offense on the field longer, forcing the opposing defense to respect a speed back, and ultimately scoring more points. While you may not agree with drafting that over defensive help, it's not inexplicable.

On a different note, did I hear Ed Hochuli (sp?) correctly after the Hasselbeck "incompletion" on that game winning drive? Apparently, the play couldn't be reviewed because the defense recovered the fumble, despite no fumble being ruled on the field. So basically because the defense did its job too well (and not even being credited for it), it couldn't be reviewed. What the hell kind of rule is that?!

Fil3232
09-23-2007, 11:06 PM
I think we see the reason why Kenny Irons was drafted. I know he got injured, but Rudi isnt getting any younger. That being said, I don't see Watson being anything more than a split-carry back.

I'm starting to think that if this team underachieves again this season, injuries or not, Marvin should go. Think Tony Dungy for a minute. The guy has restored the franchise and should be given the key to the city, but he has yet to get them over the hump and contending on a regular basis in the playoffs. The Bucs had the same situation, let Dungy go, and with the small time frame they had left, got Jon Gruden to lead them to a Super Bowl ring.

The only difference between the Bengals and Bucs though is ownership. The Glazers went after the high profile candidate, while I fear that if Marvin is let go, SoP will likely go after some retread coach similar to what San Diego did with Norv Turner.

Another thing that concerns me is Carson Palmer maturing into a fourth quarter QB. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember him making any fourth quarter comebacks to win a game. I know Glenn Holt ruined the chance today, but I am thinking about last weeks game against Cleveland. Anytime Palmer has had a chance to lead the team downfield, he chokes.

I was thinking this team would go 8-8 again, which is unacceptable, but if they go 6-10 or worse, something REALLY needs to be done.

I'm with you regarding everything but Carson's late game performance. To say he chokes late in the game is an absolute joke. He has 10 come from behind 4th quarter wins, to go along with numerous games where he has put the team in position to win only to have something go wrong. (Think Denver and Pittsburgh last year). There are a lot of things wrong with the team and organization, but the man under center is certainly NOT one of them, especially with the game on the line.

Caveat Emperor
09-23-2007, 11:21 PM
Inexplicably? Hardly. I think the difference we saw between Rudi's rushes and Kenny's rushes today were a great example of why they drafted Perry and Irons. The change of pace back allows the Bengals to be more effective while rushing the ball, thus keeping the offense on the field longer, forcing the opposing defense to respect a speed back, and ultimately scoring more points. While you may not agree with drafting that over defensive help, it's not inexplicable.

No doubt Kenny Irons and Chris Perry would help keep the offense on the field.

The issue is more akin to someone who buys chrome plating for his car while ignoring the leaky roof and dead furnace in his house.

RedFanAlways1966
09-23-2007, 11:22 PM
On a different note, did I hear Ed Hochuli (sp?) correctly after the Hasselbeck "incompletion" on that game winning drive? Apparently, the play couldn't be reviewed because the defense recovered the fumble, despite no fumble being ruled on the field. So basically because the defense did its job too well (and not even being credited for it), it couldn't be reviewed. What the hell kind of rule is that?!

I think what Ed the ref was trying to say... since the pass was ruled incomplete, the play is dead. There cannot be a fumble or a recovery when the whistle has blown the play dead. Once the ball came out of Hasselback's hands the whistle was blown. I am guessing that Marvin told Ed that he wanted a review b/c he thought Hasselback caught the ball and fumbled it.

IMO... Hasselback did catch the ball. However, he was down and did not fumble. It should have been ruled a 3 to 5 yard loss.

sonny
09-23-2007, 11:52 PM
An incomplete pass cannot be reviewed from what I understand.

BTW, I admit Chuck B. had a pretty good overall gameplan on D. If he could only plan with a chip on his shoulder every week.

pedro
09-24-2007, 12:00 AM
Now Palmer is a choker?

The Bengals have a lot of problems but Carson palmer being a choker isn't one of them. That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, though I've come to expect a certain level of psychosis from posters on this site, sometimes I can be surprised when it reaches a new level and here we are.

Screwball
09-24-2007, 12:00 AM
I think what Ed the ref was trying to say... since the pass was ruled incomplete, the play is dead. There cannot be a fumble or a recovery when the whistle has blown the play dead. Once the ball came out of Hasselback's hands the whistle was blown. I am guessing that Marvin told Ed that he wanted a review b/c he thought Hasselback caught the ball and fumbled it.

IMO... Hasselback did catch the ball. However, he was down and did not fumble. It should have been ruled a 3 to 5 yard loss.

Yeah, I think I'm starting to get it now. I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules concerning challenges, but I think a play that was ruled an incomplete pass - but ended up with the opposing defense recovering a fumble - cannot be reviewed. If it's ruled a fumble and the defense recovers, the play can be reviewed. I think that's why most referees tend to rule close plays like this one as a fumble on the field.

So basically, it seems that since Hochuli thinks that reversing the call would've resulted in a fumble recovery by the defense, it wasn't eligible to be reviewed (does that make sense?). If Hasselback had just held onto the ball when he was tackled (I think he was down anyway and there was no fumble), the play could've been reviewed, and the Seahawks certainly would've lost yardage.

I'm not sure if it would've mattered given the state of the Bengals' defense, but I found that to be a very important facet in deciding the outcome of the game.

WMR
09-24-2007, 12:03 AM
Dhani Jones played himself a hell of a ballgame today. I was very impressed with how he stepped in there with, what, five days to prepare?

Yachtzee
09-24-2007, 12:04 AM
Now Palmer is a choker?

The Bengals have a lot of problems but Carson palmer being a choker isn't one of them. That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, though I've come to expect a certain level of psychosis from posters on this site, sometimes I can be surprised when it reaches a new level and here we are.

Blaming Carson Palmer for these losses is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Reds' bullpen.

MWM
09-24-2007, 12:09 AM
Blaming Carson Palmer for these losses is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Reds' bullpen.

I was getting ready to say the same thing. I don't know if it's a Cincy thing or not, but whenever things go wrong, they alwasy blame their best player. Carson Palmer is a superb QB. Only Manning and Brady are above him, and I don't think anyone else is even close. Take Palmer out of the mix, and this is a 3-13 team at best.

guttle11
09-24-2007, 12:26 AM
Anyone who blames Carson should have their fandom revoked.

This game was lost because of stupid mental errors. Too many penalties and special teams brain lapses. Graham kicking that ball out of bounds is completely inexcusable. You can't win games in the NFL making that many basic fundamental errors.

macro
09-24-2007, 12:39 AM
Take Palmer out of the mix, and this is a 3-13 team at best.

Which takes us back to the question of what really seperates Marvin Lewis from David Shula, Bruce Coslet, and Dick Lebeau? Is Lewis really no better than those guys two if we replace Palmer with Blake or Kitna?

Even during the dark ages of the 90s, Shula and Coslet took them to seasons of 7-9, 8-8, and 7-9 in 1995, 1996, and 1997. Lebeau got them to 6-10 in 2002. None of those coaches had one of the top three quarterbacks in the game playing for them. Yet Lewis goes 8-8 three out of four seasons and is regarded as a miracle worker. I'm sorry, but I'm becoming less impressed with each passing .500 season. A 6-10 season should send him packing, and I'm not sure I wouldn't do it at 7-9. 8-8 buys him one more season.

As has been pointed out already, though, this is all just message board chatter. Lewis is going nowhere as long as soP is calling the shots.

dsmith421
09-24-2007, 01:01 AM
Carson Palmer is going to end up as the NFL's version of Ernie Banks.

This franchise is a disgrace through and through.

RedsBaron
09-24-2007, 07:52 AM
Blaming Carson Palmer for these losses is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Reds' bullpen.

I've been expecting Cincinnati fans to start blaming Palmer for the ineptitude of the Bengals defense. It would indeed be consistent with Reds fans blaming Dunn for the ineptitude of the Reds bullpen. There is probably a Bengals/Reds fan somewhere ready to argue that the Bengals should trade Palmer to free up money to buy a defensive back and that the Bengals should play "small ball."

RedFanAlways1966
09-24-2007, 08:08 AM
Graham kicking that ball out of bounds is completely inexcusable. You can't win games in the NFL making that many basic fundamental errors.

Heck, I think giving the opponent the ball on their own 40-yard-line is a moral victory for the Bengals. Their kickoff team really-really sucks. Usually 1st contact (on a good play) is made around the 35-yard-line.

Razor Shines
09-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Their ineptitude is amazing. Even Carson contributed today with two bad interceptions.

It's not easy being a QB when you KNOW you have to score every time. Ask Peyton Manning about that. Get a half way decent D in Cincy and watch Carson's INTs almost drop to single digits every year.

Like other's have said Carson is one of the three best QBs in the NFL, no reason to give him any grief because of a bad defense.

Redhook
09-24-2007, 09:03 AM
Their ineptitude is amazing. Even Carson contributed today with two bad interceptions.

Yes, their ineptitude is amazing.

However, Carson's interceptions weren't that bad. In fact, I believe they had very little to do with the outcome of the game, if anything. If you were watching the game (earlier you said you weren't) you'd understand why.

On the first one, if incomplete, the Bengals would've had to punt anyway and most likely the Seahawks would've had the same field position. In fact, it would be easy to argue that Carson's interception there saved the Bengals field position due to their piss-poor return coverage team. The second interception wasn't too different from the first one. Seahawks ball on the 31.

Both interceptions were the result of a non-existent running game. Carson played great yesterday. He was forced to throw a lot of deep passes to stretch the field out.

There are many reasons why the Bengals lost this game. Carson wouldn't make the list if it went to 100.

Reds Freak
09-24-2007, 11:00 AM
Doc has it right in the Enquirer this morning, they are just good enough to disappoint. However, look at the Bengals remaining schedule for this year:

vs. New England (L)
Bye
@ KC (W)
vs. NY Jets (W)
vs. Pittsburgh (L)
@ Buffalo (W)
@ Baltimore (L)
vs. Arizona (W)
vs. Tennessee (W)
@ Pittsburgh (L)
vs. St. Louis (W)
@ San Fran (W)
vs. Cleveland (W)
@ Miami (W)

After New England, it gets ridiculously soft. At the most, I see four losses in there. If you look at Pittsburgh and Baltimore schedules, they only get tougher. I think the Bengals can get it together and make a run this year but it is tough to make the playoffs if you start out 1-3...

macro
09-24-2007, 11:40 AM
@ KC (W)

They only lost by ten at Chicago and they beat Minnesota. Arrowhead is never an easy place for a visitor to win, regardless of the season.


vs. Arizona (W)

These are not your father's Cardinals. They only lost by a field goal at San Francisco and again at Baltimore, and in-between they beat Seattle, the same Seattle that Cincinnati couldn't beat.


vs. Tennessee (W)

They won at Jacksonville (who then won at Denver) and lost to the mighty Colts by two points. And don't forget that they finished last year with a 6-1 run, including a win over the Super Bowl champs and with the only loss being the season finale to New England.


@ San Fran (W)

They're 2-1 and their loss was at Pittsburgh. No shame in that. This one's at their place.


@ Miami (W)

No, they really shouldn't lose to the Dolphins, but these Bengals have proven that they're good at losing big games when something's on the line, even if the opponent isn't all that good. If they enter this game 8-7 and need a win to squeeze into the playoffs, they'll lose it. That's what this team is made of.

I don't think they'll lose all five of these games, but I think they'll do no better than 3-2. That would put them at their old familiar mark of mediocrity, 8-8.

pedro
09-24-2007, 01:13 PM
I actually thought they played a pretty good game. It's damn tough to win on the road in the NFL against quality teams. They almost pulled it off.

I thought Dhani Jones was a good addition and Watson played really well.

traderumor
09-24-2007, 01:37 PM
I hate to call out a Buckeye, but the Oline seems to have problems with Stepanovich at center. I think Ghiucac (and 100% Levi Jones) will help the running game.

Another question I had during the game--are Leon Hall and Jonathon Joseph fast enough to play NFL corner? Joseph was torched by Winslow last week, can't recall who torched him on the big play right before half time. Maybe he's not 100%? Hall was two steps behind a guy on the first TD on a simple right curl.

Roy Tucker
09-24-2007, 02:00 PM
I thought Rudi Johnson ran like a wimp.

At least a couple times he needed to put forth just a little effort to get over the 1st down marker but would go down like a shot if someone breathed on him or just run out of bounds.

Johnson never really struggles for extra yardage, but yesterday it seemed even more glaring.

Reds Freak
09-24-2007, 02:02 PM
Macro, I doubt they will win all those games against the weaker opponents either, but I think they'll win at least one out of their three remaining games with Baltimore and Pittsburgh and I marked all three of those down as losses. I just don't think there are more than four losses in the rest of the schedule no matter how it plays out.

Traderumor, you're right about Stepanovich. It seems like the Bengals desperately need Ghuichuac back. Lapham has pointed out on a couple of different occassions that Stepanovich has made some wrong calls.

WMR
09-24-2007, 02:36 PM
Rudi is like the anti-Earl Campbell.

(did anyone else see his interview with Bob Costas on HBO, btw? Really heartbreaking stuff.)

BuckeyeRedleg
09-24-2007, 04:18 PM
Time and time again Marvin leaves me scratching my head.

Not that it ended up costing them the game, but why the 2 point conversion? With this D and three timeouts left, you have to figure that if Seattle scores, Carson needs minimal time (especially with the 3 timeouts) to get them into FG range for the win. By going for two (and failing), you take the "FG for win" out of the equation and make it a FG to tie.

Say they get the 2 point conversion. The only point of it then was to force Seattle to make their extra point, because Seattle had to score a TD anyway. How many blocked or muffed extra points have their been in the history of the NFL? What is it? 1% or 2% chance maybe?

Ok, what's more likely to happen?

1. Get the two-point conversion, which I'd have to say is a 30-40% chance and then block the extra point or hope they miss it (1-2% chance). All together, less than 1% chance.

2. Kick the extra point and if Seattle scores a TD (high probability with this D Marvin has assembled), and still have enough time with Carson Palmer (and 3 timeouts) to get Graham into range for a game winner.

I pick option 2 every day. Marvin thinks otherwise.

It's things like this, the several challenge screw-up's, and Marvin's clock management that make me wonder if he's the right man for the job to take this team the the next level. I mean, look at the last 6 games. They have had 5 pretty close losses in which either his decisions have come to bite them in the backside or put them in bad position.

I go back to the Steeler game last year when Marvin wasted a TO by icing Jeff Reed on a 35 yard FG. C'mon, why would anyone do this? For one thing, Pittsburgh's season was over. For another thing, it was a 35 yard FG!!! What is there to "ice"? This over-thinking helped cost them the game. Marvin does it all the time and I think his nervousness in these situations is felt by the team and they carry it out to the field (see Denver choke job game last year).

As a Buckeye fan, it is eerily similar to the constipated look and actions of one Mr. John Cooper. The Buckeyes needed a new man to get them to the next level and thank God, they had the AD to make that call. I don't think Mike Brown has the cajones to dump messy Marvin.

The window is closing pretty fast for this offense and Marvin continues to Bungal away victories.

TeamSelig
09-24-2007, 06:47 PM
I think we finish 9-7. Hopefully we beat Pittsburgh in one of the games, but will drop two of Arizona/SanFran/Tenn/StL/KC (Tenn/SanFran). I think that leaves us at 9-7.

Actually though, we get Chris Henry back for most of those games. Maybe 10-6 isn't too far out of the picture.

Tony Cloninger
09-24-2007, 07:26 PM
If any money is being allocated in the wrong place it is at Rudi and JS location.

RJ is a runner that needs holes for him to succeed....and this OL is nowhere near the line they had from 1985-1990....which ran better than they passed. He is never a runner who can go outside even when he is healthy nor can he catch passes out of the backfield (the CLE non-withstanding)......... Now why this team does not run better is the same thing i asked in the 80's when they would run better than pass.....despite BE good years.....they would struggle passing if they could not run. This team is the opposite.

Now we go to the try hard and play hard JS......who really is another waste of money. You could have picked up the guy from BAL who went to NE and still picked up a DE who can give you the same production that JS gives.


Firing ML..........when MB would not fire Coslet in 2000 after 2 straight ...what 4-12/5-11 seasons.....and then they go 0 and 3 and score 1 TD in those 3 games.....or something like that....AND COSLET HAD TO RESIGN??? what makes you think MB would fire ML......the man who gives him 8-8 seasons and helped fill up the stadium again and take away the anger people had for him?

The same old......Modell fired PB story always comes up as the reason the Brown's are loyal.......Good God......get over that once and for all......PB DESERVED to be fired......he was in-flexible and had lost that team.......those same bad ways always seemed to cancel out the good things he did with the early Bengals. The Bill Bergey trade........the passing over Bill Walsh out of loyalty to Bill Johnson......the re-hiring of Homer Rice at the end of 1978 just beacuse they won 3 games in a row during a 4-12 season.....delaying FG arrival by 1 year.

AND i do not care that they went to the 1988 SB after the fact....the fact is....Wyche should have been fired after 1987.....that team I always will believe WON IN SPITE OF WYCHE.

I am 40 years old....you want to talk about a coach unable to....along with his staff that included LeBau as DC from 1984-1991 ....that could not make adjustments....or draft a defense.......that was that staff.

In 1983 they had the NO. 1 defense in the NFL.......they lost Jim LeClair and Ken Riley the next year....that was really it....they go down to about 15th.....then next year dead last with the same players except Glenn Cameron and Gary Burley....not exactly Jack Lambert and LC Greenwood there.

THERE is a correlation between DL being a better DC in PITT THAN HERE.....it is called having double the scouts....WHO JUST SCOUT ALL YEAR....and having a REAL GM......AND PLAYER PERSONNEL DIRECTOR......not JIM Limp...whatever......a former HS??? coach.

Screwball
09-24-2007, 11:10 PM
Time and time again Marvin leaves me scratching my head.

Not that it ended up costing them the game, but why the 2 point conversion? With this D and three timeouts left, you have to figure that if Seattle scores, Carson needs minimal time (especially with the 3 timeouts) to get them into FG range for the win. By going for two (and failing), you take the "FG for win" out of the equation and make it a FG to tie.

Say they get the 2 point conversion. The only point of it then was to force Seattle to make their extra point, because Seattle had to score a TD anyway. How many blocked or muffed extra points have their been in the history of the NFL? What is it? 1% or 2% chance maybe?

Ok, what's more likely to happen?

1. Get the two-point conversion, which I'd have to say is a 30-40% chance and then block the extra point or hope they miss it (1-2% chance). All together, less than 1% chance.

2. Kick the extra point and if Seattle scores a TD (high probability with this D Marvin has assembled), and still have enough time with Carson Palmer (and 3 timeouts) to get Graham into range for a game winner.

I pick option 2 every day. Marvin thinks otherwise.

It's things like this, the several challenge screw-up's, and Marvin's clock management that make me wonder if he's the right man for the job to take this team the the next level. I mean, look at the last 6 games. They have had 5 pretty close losses in which either his decisions have come to bite them in the backside or put them in bad position.

I go back to the Steeler game last year when Marvin wasted a TO by icing Jeff Reed on a 35 yard FG. C'mon, why would anyone do this? For one thing, Pittsburgh's season was over. For another thing, it was a 35 yard FG!!! What is there to "ice"? This over-thinking helped cost them the game. Marvin does it all the time and I think his nervousness in these situations is felt by the team and they carry it out to the field (see Denver choke job game last year).

As a Buckeye fan, it is eerily similar to the constipated look and actions of one Mr. John Cooper. The Buckeyes needed a new man to get them to the next level and thank God, they had the AD to make that call. I don't think Mike Brown has the cajones to dump messy Marvin.

The window is closing pretty fast for this offense and Marvin continues to Bungal away victories.

I definitely agree that the Bengals should have just kicked the extra point. How often do you see a blocked/botched extra point? Maybe once a year.

Although, most people seem to forget that it might not have even mattered. If the Bengals had just kicked the extra point, and then Seattle proceeded to score a TD, they would've no doubt gone for two, and with Shaun Alexander vs. a worn out defense, my guess is they convert the 2 point attempt, putting them up by 3.

Now I don't want to sound like I'm defending the almost indefensible decision Marvin made to go for two. However, I wanted to point out it probably didn't matter anyway.

Redsfaithful
09-25-2007, 06:09 AM
I hate to call out a Buckeye, but the Oline seems to have problems with Stepanovich at center. I think Ghiucac (and 100% Levi Jones) will help the running game.

Another question I had during the game--are Leon Hall and Jonathon Joseph fast enough to play NFL corner? Joseph was torched by Winslow last week, can't recall who torched him on the big play right before half time. Maybe he's not 100%? Hall was two steps behind a guy on the first TD on a simple right curl.

I wasn't a fan of the Hall pick but was encouraged after the Baltimore game. Now I am back to not being sure.

Joseph has had a nagging foot injury for awhile, I think it might still be bothering him. He had really good 40 times coming out of college, for whatever that is worth.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-25-2007, 11:13 AM
Hall was toast in college. I see no reason he shouldn't remain toasty in the pros.

I think Joseph will be the real deal.

The LB depth on this team is criminal. No excuse, not even the Odell situation. The DL depth is weak and the talent is weak. John Thornton is a scrub. Myers is adequate. Peko looks decent. Justin Smith is a not worth the money he's making. I can live with Geathers, but he better start earning it as well.

Injuries and arrests are just a bunch of excuses. Marvin should take over if he's not making the decisions on the defense, because whomever is doing it is making him look really stupid.

To consistently have one of the bottom 5 defenses in the league (with this offense) is inexcusable.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-25-2007, 11:59 AM
One more thing.

On the Hasselbeck catch and fumble, did Marvin incorrectly challenge the wrong part of the play (the fumble) and not whether the catch was made prior to the fumble? I understand the fumble not being reviewable, but the catch should have been reviewed.

If so, that would make two straight weeks that Marvin has screwed up these situations. Last week, Braylan Edwards spot, on the late first down should have been reviewed. I believe Marvin wanted to review the subsequent fumble and they told him it was not reviewable. Funny thing, he used the timeout after the Braylan Edwards first down anyway, but did not have them review the spot, which was obviously a full yard off.

traderumor
09-25-2007, 03:08 PM
Part of the game of football is ball control. The double edged sword of this team is that they often give the other team a lot of additional possessions when the offense is rolling, thus potentially exposing any defense. Not an excuse, but perhaps part of the defense's problem is too many possessions. So, you may need a top 5 D talent wise to offset the risk of additional possessions for the opponent and just to finish in the top half of the league. I hope that is not overly simplistic, but there have clearly been games that the offense scores too easily and you know that is gonna wear out the D as the game and season goes on. I'm not sure there is anything that can be done with the current squad, but it may be part of the ups and downs of the D moreso than simple talent and scheme problems.

pedro
09-25-2007, 03:10 PM
Part of the game of football is ball control. The double edged sword of this team is that they often give the other team a lot of additional possessions when the offense is rolling, thus potentially exposing any defense. Not an excuse, but perhaps part of the defense's problem is too many possessions. So, you may need a top 5 D talent wise to offset the risk of additional possessions for the opponent and just to finish in the top half of the league. I hope that is not overly simplistic, but there have clearly been games that the offense scores too easily and you know that is gonna wear out the D as the game and season goes on. I'm not sure there is anything that can be done with the current squad, but it may be part of the ups and downs of the D moreso than simple talent and scheme problems.

I agree with the idea that the Bengals need to control the clock more in order to take the heat off the defense. They simply can not afford to continually play the no huddle IMO.

Yachtzee
09-25-2007, 04:07 PM
I agree with the idea that the Bengals need to control the clock more in order to take the heat off the defense. They simply can not afford to continually play the no huddle IMO.

Actually, the Bengals chew up a lot of clock in the no huddle. Palmer consistently brings the play clock down do the last seconds even when he's in no huddle. Sometimes I'm convinced he's going to get nailed for a delay of game penalty and he gets the snap off just in time. The problem is that the defense is so bad that the other team can immediately answer with a drive of their own. It puts a lot of pressure on the offense to be perfect because they can't afford to fail on a scoring drive.

pedro
09-25-2007, 04:54 PM
Actually, the Bengals chew up a lot of clock in the no huddle. Palmer consistently brings the play clock down do the last seconds even when he's in no huddle. Sometimes I'm convinced he's going to get nailed for a delay of game penalty and he gets the snap off just in time. The problem is that the defense is so bad that the other team can immediately answer with a drive of their own. It puts a lot of pressure on the offense to be perfect because they can't afford to fail on a scoring drive.

I see what you're saying but it sure didn't seem that way on Sunday. I guess the problem really is that they threw so many times that teh clock was stopping a lot for incompletions.

Yachtzee
09-25-2007, 05:53 PM
I see what you're saying but it sure didn't seem that way on Sunday. I guess the problem really is that they threw so many times that teh clock was stopping a lot for incompletions.

That can happen when they are unable to get Rudi untracked. Rudi can't get going, so they pass. Palmer lights them up early, they adjust, then the incompletions come as they start getting pressure on him. Unless the Bengals get the running game going to keep the D honest, the Bengals start to struggle.

Redhook
09-25-2007, 06:04 PM
On the Hasselbeck catch and fumble, did Marvin incorrectly challenge the wrong part of the play (the fumble) and not whether the catch was made prior to the fumble? I understand the fumble not being reviewable, but the catch should have been reviewed.

If so, that would make two straight weeks that Marvin has screwed up these situations. Last week, Braylan Edwards spot, on the late first down should have been reviewed. I believe Marvin wanted to review the subsequent fumble and they told him it was not reviewable. Funny thing, he used the timeout after the Braylan Edwards first down anyway, but did not have them review the spot, which was obviously a full yard off.

You're absolutely right. That is two straight weeks Marvin has messed up these situations. He is clueless when it comes to reviewing plays. In fact, I heard he didn't even know he could review the spot last week. That's hard to believe.

I actually had dinner with a Bengal last Monday (I'd like to say who it was, but I can't). He said, in the team meeting last Monday after the Cleveland loss, the players were pretty upset about Marvin's use of that timeout and the fact that he didn't challenge the spot.

Reds Fanatic
09-25-2007, 06:07 PM
It looks like Rudi may not be able to play Monday against New England. The Bengals have signed DeDe Dorsey who is a running back that was waived by Indianapolis after the preseason.

MWM
09-25-2007, 09:01 PM
The Bengals are going to get slaughtered next Monday. It's going to be about as ugly as it gets.

Caveat Emperor
09-25-2007, 09:50 PM
The Bengals are going to get slaughtered next Monday. It's going to be about as ugly as it gets.

The Bengals always seem to get fired up for big games while letting the run-of-the-mill stuff trip them up.

I expect Monday to be an extremely close game despite having no empirical evidence to back up my assertion.

GAC
09-25-2007, 09:57 PM
The Bengals always seem to get fired up for big games while letting the run-of-the-mill stuff trip them up.

I expect Monday to be an extremely close game despite having no empirical evidence to back up my assertion.

But they may have become one dimensional if Rudi is out and their running game has taken that huge of a hit. Even though he wasn't much of a threat last Sunday, it was because Seattle prepared for that and shut it down.

NE doesn't have to be that concerned in that area now. They can give far more attention to the passing defense.

Matt700wlw
09-25-2007, 10:39 PM
The Bengals are going to get slaughtered next Monday. It's going to be about as ugly as it gets.

I don't think it will be as ugly as you think, and I have no good reason why...I don't think they will win, however.


However, as screwy as the Bengals are...they'd be the team to pull off the major major upset.

wheels
09-25-2007, 10:50 PM
Let's not discount them getting Dorsey back. That guy's a player, and the only reason the Colts cut him was because of turf toe.

Yes, I'm grasping at straws.

Then again, Ahmad Brooks will be back, and so will Giachiuc. If I'm Marvin Lewis, I make this an all hands on deck game. Throw everything you have at them before the bye.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-25-2007, 11:08 PM
You're absolutely right. That is two straight weeks Marvin has messed up these situations. He is clueless when it comes to reviewing plays. In fact, I heard he didn't even know he could review the spot last week. That's hard to believe.

I actually had dinner with a Bengal last Monday (I'd like to say who it was, but I can't). He said, in the team meeting last Monday after the Cleveland loss, the players were pretty upset about Marvin's use of that timeout and the fact that he didn't challenge the spot.

Thanks for the info, Redhook.

This is further evidence that Marvin needs to go.

Matt700wlw
09-25-2007, 11:19 PM
Thanks for the info, Redhook.

This is further evidence that Marvin needs to go.

I may agree with you (probably not yet) only if I had faith in Mike Brown to bring in anybody who could do better. He'd probably give it to Paul Alexander or Bob Bratkowski....

Sounds like the Reds, doesn't it?


You know he's not going to throw big money to a proven coach with a track record of success...

blumj
09-26-2007, 12:55 AM
I don't think it will be as ugly as you think, and I have no good reason why...I don't think they will win, however.


However, as screwy as the Bengals are...they'd be the team to pull off the major major upset.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=23289
They may not be good reasons...but they're reasons, if you want some.

guttle11
09-26-2007, 01:33 AM
Everyone knows the only reason the Pats have been any good over the past few years is because they've been cheating and stealing defensive signals. However, the Bengals play NO DEFENSE. Secret weapon, baby!

That's freaking hilarious.

Cedric
09-26-2007, 01:33 AM
I was at the game. Some terrible fans up there in Seattle and some great ones. I guess that is the way it works. I've never seen a RB go down as easily as Shawn Alexander did Sunday.

It's still amazing watching in person as Carson threads the needle. Opposing season ticket holding fans say he is the best they have ever seen. Good time.

pedro
09-26-2007, 02:01 AM
I've never seen a RB go down as easily as Shawn Alexander did Sunday.



Except for Rudi Johnson on Sunday maybe.

Looks like a hell of a nice stadium though and it's in a great area.

WMR
09-26-2007, 03:25 AM
I was at the game. Some terrible fans up there in Seattle and some great ones. I guess that is the way it works. I've never seen a RB go down as easily as Shawn Alexander did Sunday.

It's still amazing watching in person as Carson threads the needle. Opposing season ticket holding fans say he is the best they have ever seen. Good time.

Give us details, ced.

GAC
09-26-2007, 10:11 AM
Let's not discount them getting Dorsey back. That guy's a player, and the only reason the Colts cut him was because of turf toe.

Yes, I'm grasping at straws.

A friend of mine at work, who is as die-hard a Bengal fan as they come - his wife told me the other day that she hopes the Bengals win because he has been a BIG pain around the house - says that the injury to Rudi was the best thing to happen to the Bengals becaue their running game is now improved with Dorsey.

I think it was Jay Cutler I was listening to this morning on WLW (not sure); but I agree with his sentiment..... players(talent) is everything and coaching is secondary. Everyone's really giving Marvin a hard time right now, and claiming he's not a very good coach. But would this defense be better, and is it possible the Bengals could be 2-1, maybe 3-0, if they had Thurman and Pollack in there? As well as Henry on the offense? Haven't they also had some other injuries too? Coaches can't prerevent those.

If so, then Marvin would be hailed a genius. ;)

Yachtzee
09-26-2007, 10:21 AM
A friend of mine at work, who is as die-hard a Bengal fan as they come - his wife told me the other day that she hopes the Bengals win because he has been a BIG pain around the house - says that the injury to Rudi was the best thing to happen to the Bengals becaue their running game is now improved with Dorsey.

I think it was Jay Cutler I was listening to this morning on WLW (not sure); but I agree with his sentiment..... players(talent) is everything and coaching is secondary. Everyone's really giving Marvin a hard time right now, and claiming he's not a very good coach. But would this defense be better, and is it possible the Bengals could be 2-1, maybe 3-0, if they had Thurman and Pollack in there? As well as Henry on the offense? Haven't they also had some other injuries too? Coaches can't prerevent those.

If so, then Marvin would be hailed a genius. ;)

Every team has injuries. The Bengals have had plenty of time to replace Thurman and Pollack and haven't done so. Whose fault is that?

BuckeyeRedleg
09-26-2007, 10:56 AM
So, if Rudi is out, does Dorsey get his carries with Watson remaining the 3rd down back?

Sea Ray
09-26-2007, 12:12 PM
But they may have become one dimensional if Rudi is out and their running game has taken that huge of a hit. Even though he wasn't much of a threat last Sunday, it was because Seattle prepared for that and shut it down.

NE doesn't have to be that concerned in that area now. They can give far more attention to the passing defense.


I think you're overrating Rudi. I think just the opposite. I think the running game may do so well that Rudi will have to work doubly hard to regain playing time after the bye, which really isn't a bad thing.

Sea Ray
09-26-2007, 12:20 PM
Every team has injuries. The Bengals have had plenty of time to replace Thurman and Pollack and haven't done so. Whose fault is that?

It's awfully tough to replace 1st/2nd rd talent but Marvin has tried. He picked up Ahmad Brooks in the supplemental draft and Rashad Jeanty from Canada. He signed veteran Ed Hartwell. Unfortunately all were unable to play as well as Caleb Miller, a 3rd rd pick.

Last year's suspension of Odell was understandable. This year's is crazy. Who would have thought that a missed probation hearing would result in a year's suspension? I know I was caught off guard by that and I would think Marvin was too.

But really Marvin has tried to address the LBs.

Reds Fanatic
09-26-2007, 12:44 PM
So, if Rudi is out, does Dorsey get his carries with Watson remaining the 3rd down back?I would expect Watson would be primary back and Dorsey will be a backup.

Yachtzee
09-26-2007, 12:51 PM
It's awfully tough to replace 1st/2nd rd talent but Marvin has tried. He picked up Ahmad Brooks in the supplemental draft and Rashad Jeanty from Canada. He signed veteran Ed Hartwell. Unfortunately all were unable to play as well as Caleb Miller, a 3rd rd pick.

Last year's suspension of Odell was understandable. This year's is crazy. Who would have thought that a missed probation hearing would result in a year's suspension? I know I was caught off guard by that and I would think Marvin was too.

But really Marvin has tried to address the LBs.

But Marvin has constantly said he doesn't concern himself with people who aren't there (Thurman). So you assume he's not going to be around and, if he gets reinstated, you have a glut of LBs and go from there. Picking up Brooks was good, but relying on building with guys like Jeanty and Hartwell is kind of like the Reds constantly building a bullpen on retreads and minor league free agents. You occasionally find good value there, but to build a significant portion of a key unit of your team that way is doomed to failure over the long run.

WMR
09-26-2007, 02:29 PM
I think you're overrating Rudi. I think just the opposite. I think the running game may do so well that Rudi will have to work doubly hard to regain playing time after the bye, which really isn't a bad thing.

I think Rudi may be/has become too comfortable with his "deserved" place/role on this team.

Maybe this will light a fire under his...

traderumor
09-26-2007, 02:39 PM
I think Rudi may be/has become too comfortable with his "deserved" place/role on this team.

Maybe this will light a fire under his...They could try to confuse the D every once in awhile. Who doesn't know when Rudi is running? Bratkowski doesn't seem to be much of one for confusion by formation, which is all well and good when the hosses are just blowing people away, but that doesn't work week in and week out or season in and season out.

WMR
09-26-2007, 02:52 PM
They could try to confuse the D every once in awhile. Who doesn't know when Rudi is running? Bratkowski doesn't seem to be much of one for confusion by formation, which is all well and good when the hosses are just blowing people away, but that doesn't work week in and week out or season in and season out.

Oh I agree with you.

And hopefully Bratkowski learns sooner rather than later that running Rudi to the outside plays away from Rudi's strengths...

Roy Tucker
09-26-2007, 03:00 PM
But Marvin has constantly said he doesn't concern himself with people who aren't there (Thurman). So you assume he's not going to be around and, if he gets reinstated, you have a glut of LBs and go from there. Picking up Brooks was good, but relying on building with guys like Jeanty and Hartwell is kind of like the Reds constantly building a bullpen on retreads and minor league free agents. You occasionally find good value there, but to build a significant portion of a key unit of your team that way is doomed to failure over the long run.

I agree. I don't think you can pin the defensive woes of the Bengals on the loss of Thurman and Pollack. They had plenty of time to shore up the defense. At the beginning of training camp this team looked thin.

Not to mention the lack of talent and experience on special teams. The Bengals have had some of the worst special teams play I've seen in a long time.

I see the cheapness of Mike Brown showing up in the background.

Which is too bad since Palmer, Chad, and TJ have played spectacularly. I cannot believe some of the threaded needle passes Palmer consistently throws. And catches TJ and Chad make. It's a shame it looks like its going to waste.

WMR
09-26-2007, 03:03 PM
I agree. I don't think you can pin the defensive woes of the Bengals on the loss of Thurman and Pollack. They had plenty of time to shore up the defense. At the beginning of training camp this team looked thin.

Not to mention the lack of talent and experience on special teams. The Bengals have had some of the worst special teams play I've seen in a long time.

I see the cheapness of Mike Brown showing up in the background.

Which is too bad since Palmer, Chad, and TJ have played spectacularly. I cannot believe some of the threaded needle passes Palmer consistently throws. And catches TJ and Chad make. It's a shame it looks like its going to waste.

Do you really think Mike Brown is denying Marvin special teams player A over player B due to a few hundred thou?

One thing it seems that Mikey has rectified over the past few years is his unwillingness to open up the checkbook... a lot of big money and big contracts have been awarded recently to our best players...

don't the Bengals operate fairly close to the salary cap?

Yachtzee
09-26-2007, 03:18 PM
Do you really think Mike Brown is denying Marvin special teams player A over player B due to a few hundred thou?

One thing it seems that Mikey has rectified over the past few years is his unwillingness to open up the checkbook... a lot of big money and big contracts have been awarded recently to our best players...

don't the Bengals operate fairly close to the salary cap?

I agree. I don't think the Bengals have necessarily been cheap. They've just been poor at allocating resources. I think it would have been wiser to let Justin Smith walk and spread some of that money around to raise the level of the defense. Instead they franchised him and tied up a lot of money in a guy who tends to disappear a lot. I think at some point, they can't afford to pay Palmer and CJ and TJ and Rudi and Willie Anderson and Levi Jones. They're going to have to free up some of that money to spend on defense. Personally I think Rudi is the easiest to replace. Big Willie will probably retire in the next few seasons, so he'll be gone too. Better use that money wisely.

WMR
09-26-2007, 04:04 PM
I agree. I don't think the Bengals have necessarily been cheap. They've just been poor at allocating resources. I think it would have been wiser to let Justin Smith walk and spread some of that money around to raise the level of the defense. Instead they franchised him and tied up a lot of money in a guy who tends to disappear a lot. I think at some point, they can't afford to pay Palmer and CJ and TJ and Rudi and Willie Anderson and Levi Jones. They're going to have to free up some of that money to spend on defense. Personally I think Rudi is the easiest to replace. Big Willie will probably retire in the next few seasons, so he'll be gone too. Better use that money wisely.

If we could ever get one of our young RBs to stay healthy!

I agree on Justin Smith.

I also question Dexter Jackson's worth at this point... ESPECIALLY against the pass.

WMR
09-26-2007, 04:05 PM
What's Chris Perry's status?

Chip R
09-26-2007, 04:07 PM
What's Chris Perry's status?


Injured, as always.

WMR
09-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Injured, as always.

Is there a timetable for his return?

joshnky
09-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Perry is on PUP, so I believe he is out the first 6 weeks of the year. Since he was close at the end of the preseason and Rudi has struggled, I expect that he'll be activated when he is eligible.

Roy Tucker
09-26-2007, 04:29 PM
Do you really think Mike Brown is denying Marvin special teams player A over player B due to a few hundred thou?

One thing it seems that Mikey has rectified over the past few years is his unwillingness to open up the checkbook... a lot of big money and big contracts have been awarded recently to our best players...

don't the Bengals operate fairly close to the salary cap?

Yeah, you guys are right. I thought the Bengals had a lot more cap space available.

Never mind.

WVRed
09-26-2007, 05:09 PM
I have a feeling that either Chad or TJ likely will be traded in the next two or three years. Receivers are a dime a dozen in the league and can be developed a lot easier than say a QB, so that will free up some money.

CTA513
09-26-2007, 05:26 PM
The Bengals made another move to help improve special teams.



Keiwan Ratliff waived

The Bengals just announced that cornerback Keiwan Ratliff, their first of two second-round draft picks in 2004, has been waived.

The Bengals signed Blue Adams, formerly of the University of Cincinnati, in Ratliff's spot.

Adams had a neck injury in minicamp for the Bengals and was limited in the preseason and training camp. He was waived Sept. 1.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2007/09/keiwan-ratliff-waived.asp

Reds Fanatic
09-26-2007, 08:31 PM
Perry is on PUP, so I believe he is out the first 6 weeks of the year. Since he was close at the end of the preseason and Rudi has struggled, I expect that he'll be activated when he is eligible.That is right it is 6 weeks. I am not sure if that counts the bye week or not. If the bye week counts he could be back as early as the Jets game if he is healthy.

Boss-Hog
09-26-2007, 08:43 PM
That is right it is 6 weeks. I am not sure if that counts the bye week or not. If the bye week counts he could be back as early as the Jets game if he is healthy.
It's six weeks, which includes the bye, so he could potentially be back by the sixth game.

wheels
09-26-2007, 10:19 PM
I hate thinking about it, because he's evil, but getting Chris Henry back will make them that much better offensively.

I think Chris Perry's ready now (they weren't sure if they were going to PUP him to start the season), and if he can stay healthy, he'll be a big lift. It seems like they've got the offensive weapons on the horizon, yet I'm not jazzed about anyone on defense that they're missing, save for Thurman coming back (hopefully) next season.

It's like the eighties. Offense out the wazoo, and a defense with the same amount of nothing.

What's the deal with Cincinnati teams that can't stop anyone from scoring? DO they think that we as fans want that above all else?

Cedric
09-27-2007, 03:34 AM
Give us details, ced.

I've seen some rude fans at Bengals games, but Seattle was the worst away experience yet. I had a female fan kick me in the calf and a guy with dip all over his teeth ridiculing a team I root for. He acted like he played.
Also had a guy sitting by us that gave us high fives after Seattle went up 7-0. We laughed and said "that was a good drive". Just trying to be cordial and let him razz us a bit. After the Bengals scored we tried to give him a high five and he cussed at us.

Football is just getting worse every year with it's fans. People just don't respect the game and they feel like they have to get physical after watching such a physical game. It's a sloppy, drunk mess.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-27-2007, 10:30 AM
Bengals | Rob Oller commentary: Lewis could use pep talk at seminar
Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:55 AM
By Rob Oller

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH


His team is underachieving. His attitude needs adjusting. His people skills need reshaping. His leadership needs fine-tuning.

It's time for Marvin Lewis to GET MOTIVATED. Zig Ziglar and his crew of Yes! men are here to help, judging from a full-page advertisement in yesterday's Dispatch.

For a total investment of just $4.95 -- or only $19 for the entire Bengals coaching staff -- Lewis can learn to:

• Get ahead and (more important, given the outcome of the past two games) stay ahead;

• Draft a clear blueprint for success (it's called developing a capable defense);

• Persuade (fans and media) that you know what you're doing (even if you don't).

Lewis has reached a plateau as an NFL coach since Mike Brown hired him in 2003. Hailed as a savior after an 8-8 record that first season, Lewis is 28-24 since, including 0-1 in the playoffs. Over the past 16 games -- the equivalent of a full season -- the Bengals are 6-10. That hardly cuts it in the NFL, where parity provides the opportunity to succeed beyond your wildest dreams.

Ziglar's lineup -- which includes Colin Powell; Steve Forbes; Dr. Robert Schuller; Archie Griffin and George Ross, right-hand man to Donald Trump -- undoubtedly understands what Lewis and the Bengals need to go from inconsistent win-losers into consistent win-winners.

Powell, whose specialty is leadership, could convince Lewis that leading is different from managing. Among Powell's power points:

• How to remain focused in a crisis. Lewis froze in a loss Sunday in Seattle. He attempted a two-point conversion instead of the one-point kick after Cincinnati scored to take a 21-17 lead with 2:42 remaining. The rationale? If Seattle scored, which it went on to do, the score would remain tied if the Bengals could block the Seahawks' PAT attempt. Lewis failed to consider that by failing on the two-point conversion, the Bengals would need a field goal just to tie.
Business expert Forbes could help Lewis finesse his people skills:

• The customer is always right. Lewis' assertion that the media don't deserve answers -- "I'm not going to try to explain it. That's our business," he said after a 51-45 loss to Cleveland two weeks ago -- is a slap at fans who rely on the media for information, the fans who shell out part of their paychecks to support the team. Forbes would point out that Lewis' patronizing and condescending attitude toward his "customers" is no way to conduct business.

Goal-achievement guru Schuller could teach Lewis:

• It's not how you start but how you finish. The bright side? The Bengals are 1-2 but have plenty of time to turn things around. The remaining nondivision schedule after Monday's game against New England is soft as cotton. Closing well, however, is not a given. Last season, the Bengals lost their last three games; a win in any of the three would have secured a playoff spot.

Griffin's humility and lack of arrogance wins him friends and admirers:

• "He's a better young man than a football player, and he's the best football player I've ever seen," former Ohio State coach Woody Hayes said of Griffin. Lewis' ego is enormous, which is fine except when it escapes. He's going to need friends someday. When that day arrives, he might regret mistreating the media.

Ross is a no-nonsense salesman whose negotiation strategies net results:

• Seal the deal without appeal. The Bengals' off-field problems of a year ago suggest that Lewis' "my way or the highway" message was getting lost in translation. So far this season, the police blotter is mostly blank. Now, if Lewis can just get the defense to do the right thing, which brings us to …

Ziglar is a master motivator, and he is big on:

• Putting people in position to succeed. The Bengals' defenders often can't get into the right position, period. Lewis arrived in Cincinnati as a defensive genius, yet the defense has been the weak link. Does he know talent when he sees it (other than when he looks in the mirror)?

Spending an hour with Zig and his zero-failure guys should do the trick for Lewis. If not -- well, it's none of our business. Right, Marvin?

Rob Oller is a sports reporter for The Dispatch.

roller@dispatch.com

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2007/09/27/oller27.ART_ART_09-27-07_C1_DD81AGK.html?sid=101

wheels
09-27-2007, 10:56 AM
That's a terrible article.

Of course that's to be expected from Oller, who makes John Fay look like Jimmy Cannon.

WMR
09-27-2007, 12:12 PM
It may not win any prizes, but I'm glad to see the media starting to put some pressure on "The Savior."

And I, for one, couldn't agree more with calling out Marvin's surliness in press conferences.

traderumor
09-27-2007, 02:13 PM
Business expert Forbes could help Lewis finesse his people skills:

• The customer is always right. Sorry, but I do not rely on the popular media to inform me, so it is a bit presumptuous for a member of the media to see himself as the mediator between the team and the fans. Also, Marvin is only reflecting the attitude of the NFL, who has made it very clear that they want full control over media communication.

I imagine many coaches will get less surly with media when the media gets less surly with them. You can ask tough questions without being abrasive, but many questions are ignorant or asked in a leading manner. Then there's that whole selective quoting problem.

WMR
09-27-2007, 02:30 PM
Sorry, but I do not rely on the popular media to inform me, so it is a bit presumptuous for a member of the media to see himself as the mediator between the team and the fans. Also, Marvin is only reflecting the attitude of the NFL, who has made it very clear that they want full control over media communication.

I imagine many coaches will get less surly with media when the media gets less surly with them. You can ask tough questions without being abrasive, but many questions are ignorant or asked in a leading manner. Then there's that whole selective quoting problem.

I watch almost all of Marvin's press conferences, and many of the questions are from Dave Lapham, one of the least abrasive/most self-effacing men I have ever heard. (but Marvin's responses are smartass and/or surly more often than not)

All the wrtiers/media in the room walk on eggshells around Marvin.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-27-2007, 03:18 PM
That's a terrible article.

Of course that's to be expected from Oller, who makes John Fay look like Jimmy Cannon.

Wheels, I'm not a fan of Oller, but he makes valid points in this article.

Yachtzee
09-27-2007, 03:45 PM
I watch almost all of Marvin's press conferences, and many of the questions are from Dave Lapham, one of the least abrasive/most self-effacing men I have ever heard. (but Marvin's responses are smartass and/or surly more often than not)

All the wrtiers/media in the room walk on eggshells around Marvin.

I think Marvin should remember that, regardless of who is asking questions, the answers are for the benefit of the fans. They may not like the answers, and some questions can't be answered for fear that it would be too much information for the opposing team. But when you get surly and evasive and refuse to address issues and questions that just about every Bengals fan has is a real turn off for me. I'd at least like to know that Marvin Lewis recognizes the problem and is trying to handle it. Surly, smartass answers aren't what I as a purchaser of the Bengals' product want to hear.

wheels
09-27-2007, 06:29 PM
Wheels, I'm not a fan of Oller, but he makes valid points in this article.

Yeah?

Well you've done a better job addressing those points than Oller, and you do it for free.

Personally, I couldn't care less about how Lewis addresses the media. He's "nicer" about it than Bill Parcells, and sometimes he's pretty funny. I don't care if he's secretive, and I don't care if he explains himself as long as he wins. Right now, they aren't winning, and it's pretty obvious why that's the case.

If they could just get back to winning some dad gum football games, we'd not hear all of this talk about Marvin's media tactics (of all the things with which to waste ink!).

BuckeyeRedleg
09-27-2007, 11:05 PM
If they could just get back to winning some dad gum football games, we'd not hear all of this talk about Marvin's media tactics (of all the things with which to waste ink!).

It's not just his condescending attitude towards the media, it's his pathetic clock, game, and red flag management.

That and the fact that he's put together an abortion of a defense, that leads me to the following conclusion:

He needs to go, before the window of this remarkable offense has been shut.

Screwball
09-28-2007, 12:58 PM
It's not just his condescending attitude towards the media, it's his pathetic clock, game, and red flag management.

That and the fact that he's put together an abortion of a defense, that leads me to the following conclusion:

He needs to go, before the window of this remarkable offense has been shut.

And be replaced by who? Who out there is a.) available, b.) willing to come to Cincinnati, and (perhaps most importantly) c.) is actually better than Marvin Lewis.

All of this "fire the coach" talk sounds like a good idea, but in reality it would be closer to a disaster than the cure for what ails the Bengals.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-28-2007, 04:10 PM
And be replaced by who? Who out there is a.) available, b.) willing to come to Cincinnati, and (perhaps most importantly) c.) is actually better than Marvin Lewis.

All of this "fire the coach" talk sounds like a good idea, but in reality it would be closer to a disaster than the cure for what ails the Bengals.

Anyone with a pulse that is not as incompetent with the basics.

I don't belive this team can take it to the next level with Marvin as coach. The sooner the move is made, the better.

joshnky
09-28-2007, 04:15 PM
Anyone with a pulse that is not as incompetent with the basics.

Wow... How quickly we forget that the Bengals won the division and could have won a lot more two years ago if Carson doesn't go down. The defensive ineptitude is getting old but remember where the Bengals were before Marvin. Palmer has a lot to do with that but when he took the job he turned the team around with John Kitna as the QB and nearly made the playoffs that year.

wheels
09-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Wow... How quickly we forget that the Bengals won the division and could have won a lot more two years ago if Carson doesn't go down. The defensive ineptitude is getting old but remember where the Bengals were before Marvin. Palmer has a lot to do with that but when he took the job he turned the team around with John Kitna as the QB and nearly made the playoffs that year.

Thank you very much.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-28-2007, 11:09 PM
Wow... How quickly we forget that the Bengals won the division and could have won a lot more two years ago if Carson doesn't go down. The defensive ineptitude is getting old but remember where the Bengals were before Marvin. Palmer has a lot to do with that but when he took the job he turned the team around with John Kitna as the QB and nearly made the playoffs that year.

Ok, be content with 8-8.

Your right, 8-8 is great, considering where they were before Marvin stepped in.

Of course, it's my opinion that anyone could have stepped in at that time (with that offense) and looked like a savior and I'm sure that will buy Marvin many more years of 8-8 or something near that.

What a lucky guy he is. I just can't enjoy the mediocrity just because they stunk so bad for so long.

WMR
09-28-2007, 11:20 PM
Ok, be content with 8-8.

Your right, 8-8 is great, considering where they were before Marvin stepped in.

Of course, it's my opinion that anyone could have stepped in at that time (with that offense) and looked like a savior and I'm sure that will buy Marvin many more years of 8-8 or something near that.

What a lucky guy he is. I just can't enjoy the mediocrity just because they stunk so bad for so long.

I agree with you Buck...

I think the Tony Dungy comparisons are valid.

Marvin HAS done a good job of getting the Bengals back to respectability.

HOWEVER: The "improvement curve" must continue to ascend, otherwise our vaunted offense will end up being for naught. The window on this offense is closing, and we cannot afford 3-4 more seasons of ho-hum defense and special teams.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-28-2007, 11:30 PM
By the way, with 8 divisions, how many division champs have there been over the last 4 years?

Answer: 18 - more than half the league has won a division.

IND x 4
NE x 4
SEA x 3 + 1 WILDCARD
PHI x 3
CHI x 2
SD x 2
BAL x 2

STL + 1 WILDCARD
CAR + 1 WILDCARD
NYG + 1 WILDCARD
DEN + 2 WILDCARDS
KC + 1 WILDCARD
PIT + 1 WILDCARD
GB
TB
NO
ATL
CIN

wildcards:

NYJ x 2
DAL x 2
JAX
TEN
WASH
MIN

So, 24 different teams have been to the playoffs since Marvin took over with only 8 pathetic franchises (2 of which are pretty much expansion garbage) not making it (CLE, HOU, BUF, MIA, OAK, DET, ARI, SF).

GoReds33
09-28-2007, 11:35 PM
I don't know about anybody else, but I would rather be 0 and 16, and 8 and 8. I can't stand being in contention to the last possible second, only to see my hopes dashed. I know this doesn't sound like a true fan, but that's the way I see it.

joshnky
09-29-2007, 05:31 PM
By the way, with 8 divisions, how many division champs have there been over the last 4 years?

Answer: 18 - more than half the league has won a division.

IND x 4
NE x 4
SEA x 3 + 1 WILDCARD
PHI x 3
CHI x 2
SD x 2
BAL x 2

STL + 1 WILDCARD
CAR + 1 WILDCARD
NYG + 1 WILDCARD
DEN + 2 WILDCARDS
KC + 1 WILDCARD
PIT + 1 WILDCARD
GB
TB
NO
ATL
CIN

wildcards:

NYJ x 2
DAL x 2
JAX
TEN
WASH
MIN

So, 24 different teams have been to the playoffs since Marvin took over with only 8 pathetic franchises (2 of which are pretty much expansion garbage) not making it (CLE, HOU, BUF, MIA, OAK, DET, ARI, SF).

I'd contend that it is more difficult to win the AFC North than some of the NFC divisions making it a greater achievement. While I'm willing to give Marvin far more credit than you are, I do agree that we need to see some progress on the defensive side of the ball.

joshnky
09-29-2007, 05:33 PM
I don't know about anybody else, but I would rather be 0 and 16, and 8 and 8. I can't stand being in contention to the last possible second, only to see my hopes dashed. I know this doesn't sound like a true fan, but that's the way I see it.

I don't agree. At least with 8-8 you have the thrill of following a team in contention. However, continued 8-8 seasons will quickly get old but I never want to return to the days of last place.