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Matt700wlw
09-29-2007, 02:10 PM
From Rob Butcher

Ronnie Belliard committed an error last night. Brandon Phillips now leads all National League second basemen in both total chances and fielding percentage.

TOBTTReds
09-29-2007, 05:50 PM
From Rob Butcher

Ronnie Belliard committed an error last night. Brandon Phillips now leads all National League second basemen in both total chances and fielding percentage.

Thankfully though, Belliard is not in contention for the award either. To lead the league in % AND total chances is pretty amazing. That means he is getting to a lot of grounders that others might not and still successfully getting outs.

Notice too, he takes a lot of IF pop ups, easy way to build the %! Keep doing it. Though calling off Edwin is impossible, he'll take some of Votto's pop ups next year.

Highlifeman21
09-29-2007, 07:29 PM
The O Dog is a much better defensive 2B than Brandon Phillips, and should win the GG.

While Phillips is no slouch, he's no Orlando Hudson.

WVRedsFan
09-29-2007, 09:01 PM
I'm surprised George Grande didn't start this thread. Maybe if Brandon doesn't win it, George can at least refer to him as a "near gold glove" like he did Soriano Friday night.

TOBTTReds
09-29-2007, 09:13 PM
The O Dog is a much better defensive 2B than Brandon Phillips, and should win the GG.

While Phillips is no slouch, he's no Orlando Hudson.

This year the O Dog was much below O Dog Par. He was hurt a bit and that effected him. BP had a better year than Hudson, IMO.

BP had 433 assists this year with 8 errors.
ODog w/387 assists and 10 errors.

BP also has the #1 zone rating. If you have the best zone rating, and the best fielding percentage, then you are ridiculously good. That is all.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B%5D=2&pos_filter%5B%5D=4&Submit=Submit

Mario-Rijo
09-30-2007, 12:45 AM
The O Dog is a much better defensive 2B than Brandon Phillips, and should win the GG.

While Phillips is no slouch, he's no Orlando Hudson.

I'll disagree with that.

Cedric
09-30-2007, 02:00 AM
I'll disagree with that.

Likewise. Brandon is the best defensive 2b in the game, IMO.

Highlifeman21
09-30-2007, 03:15 PM
I'll still take Orlando Hudson over Brandon Phillips, IMO.

redsfan4445
10-01-2007, 06:24 AM
Brandon WILL win the Gold Glove... mark it down.. also ESPN showed his highlite great play to seal another Dodger shutout. his dive and off-balance throw to end the game, as the Reds best webgem of the season!!

icehole3
10-01-2007, 06:44 AM
Fielding theyre even thats no debate and hitting Brandon is an impact player, why one would even argue this point is laughable.

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Animations/spit.gif

Highlifeman21
10-01-2007, 08:40 AM
Brandon WILL win the Gold Glove... mark it down.. also ESPN showed his highlite great play to seal another Dodger shutout. his dive and off-balance throw to end the game, as the Reds best webgem of the season!!

That play wasn't even Brandon's best play of 2007. I forget the opponent, but the bloop between 2B and 1B where he barehands and fires to Valentin to get the guy at the plate to end the game was his best, and IMO one of the best in the entire league in 2007.

I'd still be very interested to see what Phillips could do at SS for a full season.

icehole3
10-01-2007, 04:42 PM
That play wasn't even Brandon's best play of 2007. I forget the opponent, but the bloop between 2B and 1B where he barehands and fires to Valentin to get the guy at the plate to end the game was his best, and IMO one of the best in the entire league in 2007.

I'd still be very interested to see what Phillips could do at SS for a full season.

I think he would be a wonderful SS, move him to SS and Kep to 2nd, just my thought

fearofpopvol1
10-01-2007, 04:50 PM
That play wasn't even Brandon's best play of 2007. I forget the opponent, but the bloop between 2B and 1B where he barehands and fires to Valentin to get the guy at the plate to end the game was his best, and IMO one of the best in the entire league in 2007.

I'd still be very interested to see what Phillips could do at SS for a full season.

The Pirates. That was amazing.

I think the Atlanta game when Franecour smashed a line drive to him and he leaped and caught it and doubled up the runner at 3rd to save the game from ending (which the Reds won in extra innings) was pretty unbelievable as well.

M2
10-01-2007, 05:02 PM
I'll disagree with that.

Me too. I have a ton of respect for O'Dog (I've decided to Irish up his nickname) in the field, but Phillips had a dynamite year on par with O'Dog's best.

Phillips also had a knack for making highlight plays (do not underestimate the power of the Web Gem) and his 30/30 season on offensive reinforces the notion that he's a superior athlete in all phases of the game.

I'd say the GG would come down to Phillips and Utley (who grades at the top in multiple defensive rating systems). Against Utley are that he missed some time, that he can't match Phillips in the speed department (which influences mass perception) and that he's pedestrian on the DP turn. Utley often pockets the ball when a baserunner is right on top of him. Nothing wrong with that, better not to throw it away. It also helps that Jimmy Rollins is handy with a quick feed the majority of the time, but I imagine a lot of players and coaches (and those are the GG voters) watch Utley and think he sometimes doesn't get the outs he could on the DP.

redsmetz
10-01-2007, 05:03 PM
So are clubs permitted to send out info about their players to the voters. I think the Reds should be proactive with this sort of thing, if permitted. The should have done the same thing for Harrang last year, starting with their own beat writers who didn't even vote for him.

M2
10-01-2007, 05:43 PM
So are clubs permitted to send out info about their players to the voters. I think the Reds should be proactive with this sort of thing, if permitted. The should have done the same thing for Harrang last year, starting with their own beat writers who didn't even vote for him.

I believe all the awards are being voted on between now and the official start of the playoffs. You wouldn't have time to send out info and it would be bad form even if you did. Either the players, coaches and execs think you're the best in the field or they don't.

jojo
10-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Utley is a better defender than Phillips. But that's not why he'll win the GG. Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

M2
10-01-2007, 06:45 PM
Utley is a better defender than Phillips. But that's not why he'll win the GG. Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

Except the voting for the award happens before the playoffs. I agree that overall offense will be the main thing that helps Utley overcome his reputation as a mediocre defender. Set against that is Phillips' 30/30 season. If I had to guess, 30/30 will make a guy seem like a better defender than a .976 OPS.

I disagree that it is a matter of absolute fact that Utley IS a better defender than Phillips. He may be, but that is far from a settled matter.

jojo
10-01-2007, 07:44 PM
Except the voting for the award happens before the playoffs.

That doesn't matter-the point was he played for a winning team.

Utley is better than Phillips defensively.


If I had to guess, 30/30 will make a guy seem like a better defender than a .976 OPS.

In a recent poll (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/26/poll1001/index.html)of major leaguers that ask what is the most important offensive stat, these scored the top four in order:
1. RBI
2. OBP
3. BA
4. OPS

Basically those four got 80% of the vote for most important.

Utley: .332/.410/.566 OPS: .976 RBI: 103
Phillips: .288/.331/.485 OPS: .816 RBI: 94

It would seem that to the extent that offense influences gold glove voting, Phillips doesn't stand a chance based upon the metrics that his colleagues feel are important and it's not even close.

The fact that this conversation is even in a gold-glove thread illustrates how silly the award is IMHO.

M2
10-01-2007, 08:00 PM
That doesn't matter-the point was he played for a winning team.

That's not anything close to what you said. What you said was, "he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball." So it would matter that the votes get cast before Utley gets that showcase. If you want to change the construct to team record having a major effect on GG votes feel free to make your case.


Utley is better than Phillips defensively.

Yes, we all understand that in the dogmatic world inside your head that Chase Utley is a better defender than Brandon Phillips. Maybe if you jump up and down while you say it, you'll prove more persuasive at convincing others on that point.

jojo
10-01-2007, 08:22 PM
That's not anything close to what you said. What you said was, "he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball." So it would matter that the votes get cast before Utley gets that showcase.

No it wouldn't. Because he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.


Yes, we all understand that in the dogmatic world inside your head that Chase Utley is a better defender than Brandon Phillips. Maybe if you jump up and down while you say it, you'll prove more persuasive at convincing others on that point.

You're right, incurious, undignified behavior is way more persuasive.... :cool:

M2
10-01-2007, 08:27 PM
No it wouldn't. Because he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

Are you familiar with how time works in linear fashion? If all of the votes for GG are cast prior to the start of the postseason showcase then Utley's postseason showcase won't have the opportunity to influence the voters.


You're right, incurious, undignified behavior is way more persuasive.... :cool:

Or so you seem to keep hoping. Though this new tack of typing the same sentence over again could be a winner too.

jojo
10-01-2007, 08:34 PM
Are you familiar with how time works in linear fashion? If all of the votes for GG are cast prior to the start of the postseason showcase then Utley's postseason showcase won't have the opportunity to influence the voters.

I'm accused of being dogmatic yet the only possible interpretation for any statement is the one that seems to support your preconceived notion.

Once again: Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

"Possibly going to be" suggests he might be in the playoffs in the future.

Now. Please. Stop. It. Please.

M2
10-01-2007, 08:55 PM
I'm accused of being dogmatic yet the only possible interpretation for any statement is the one that seems to support your preconceived notion.

Once again: Utley will win the gold glove because he's a significantly better offensive player and he's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.

"Possibly going to be" suggests he might be in the playoffs in the future.

Now. Please. Stop. It. Please.

Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.

Here's a proper use of the word possibly - "Chase Utley is possibly a better fielder than Brandon Phillips." See? No future time clause there, the verb controls the time reference, "possibly" indicates the unsettled state of the matter.

Now. Please. Stop. Butchering. The. English. Language. And. Blaming. Others. When. They. Don't. Understand. Your. Inarticulate. Mess. Please.

OnBaseMachine
10-01-2007, 09:02 PM
Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.

Here's a proper use of the word possibly - "Chase Utley is possibly a better fielder than Brandon Phillips." See? No future time clause there, the verb controls the time reference, "possibly" indicates the unsettled state of the matter.

Now. Please. Stop. Butchering. The. English. Language. And. Blaming. Others. When. They. Don't. Understand. Your. Inarticulate. Mess. Please.

You are the man. :beerme:

jojo
10-01-2007, 10:23 PM
Um, "possibly" means that maybe something will happen and maybe it won't happen. The Phillies are going to be in the postseason in the immediate future. That's a rock solid fact, no "possibly" about it. So, me knowing what "possibly" means and assuming incorrectly that you did too, I paid attention to the possibles - like maybe the Phillies would get to play in primetime as opposed to in the afternoon or late at night, or maybe voters would get to see more of him because of that showcase. You know, the things that maybe would or wouldn't happen in the future, not the thing that's definite - that the Phillies will be in the playoffs.

While that certainly trips the snark circuit breaker (which doesn't really score points if it gets in the way of the discussion), it ignores one fact- coaches and managers vote on the gold glove selection prior to the conclusion of regular season (http://www.rawlingsgoldglove.com/News/Releases/Aug-22-2007.aspx).... (i.e. "and Utley's possibly going to be showcased every night during prime time playoff baseball.")

I've reread this thread and I admit, my original post was hastily written and may have been poorly worded but it assumed everyone was on the same page about the voting process.


I believe all the awards are being voted on between now and the official start of the playoffs. You wouldn't have time to send out info and it would be bad form even if you did. Either the players, coaches and execs think you're the best in the field or they don't.

I see now where some of the trouble occurred. That said, a lot of this noise could really be avoided by an honest attempt at understanding the opposing view.....

M2
10-01-2007, 11:26 PM
I've reread this thread and I admit, my original post was hastily written and may have been poorly worded but it assumed everyone was on the same page about the voting process.

I see now where some of the trouble occurred. That said, a lot of this noise could really be avoided by an honest attempt at understanding the opposing view.....

Dude, I understand the voting process just fine. All your jumbled post did was make it look like you didn't understand the process. If you did/do, that's all well and good, but how anyone's supposed to infer an assumed past tense when you're using future tense is beyond me.

Perhaps an honest attempt at taking full ownership for the words you typed, instead of this continued deflectory noise, would be in order.

On a separate matter, I figure it's an inexact science as to which offensive stats affect Gold Glove votes. The main benefit to offensive stats would seem to be that folks around the league know your name. BA, OPS, RBI, HR, SB, they all accomplish that. What might be instructive is that if players and coaches think SBs correlate to defensive ability, based on the notion that speed equates to range. I doubt anyone thinks RBIs correlate to defensive range.

FWIW, I can certainly see where playing for a contender could help a candidate (back to the notion that it can add to the amount of press you get). Counterbalancing that is the Web Gem. Players watch "Baseball Tonight" to see who makes the highlights. Phillips has been getting serious face time in that forum. He's made Web Gems for barehanded relays, for getting massive air to catch liners, for behind the back flips, for all glove flips, for pressure DP turns, for dive-and-throw plays. It's unscientific, but I've heard the ESPN guys talk about Phillips as a GG winner during those highlights on a few occasions in the latter portion of the year. I haven't heard them say a word to that effect about Utley. O'Dog got noticed on a losing team pretty much the same way.

Main point is that in the bizarre world of GG voting I'd think Phillips has been able to gain the necessary notoriety, to create the broad perception that he is indeed a good fielder.