PDA

View Full Version : Walt Jocketty OUT in St. Louis



Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Here's your big fat log on the hot stove......and it's only October 3rd

http://www.stltoday.com/sports

Joseph
10-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Oh no!

wheels
10-03-2007, 04:12 PM
I wonder how how dedicated Castellini is to keeping Wayne around...

I hope they have secret talks with Jocketty underway right now.

I'd give my left thumb for the Reds to hire him. Even if it meant having to deal with Tony LaRussa as the manager.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 04:12 PM
I love breaking news :D

reds44
10-03-2007, 04:13 PM
Things just got a bit more interesting.

George Anderson
10-03-2007, 04:16 PM
I like Wayne but man I would love to see Jocketty here.

M2
10-03-2007, 04:19 PM
Hey, what's with that writing on the wall?

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 04:24 PM
So much for a relaxing offseason :D

Johnny Footstool
10-03-2007, 04:25 PM
Hey, what's with that writing on the wall?

It's a train schedule. You can hear that 12:15 rolling in from a hundred miles away.

reds44
10-03-2007, 04:27 PM
IF Jocketty comes, does LaRussa follow?

M2
10-03-2007, 04:30 PM
IF Jocketty comes, does LaRussa follow?

You'd have to think so. And I'm guessing Dave Duncan will be part of the package as well.

Joseph
10-03-2007, 04:31 PM
Does Dave Duncan make up for the the way the farm system will be handled....theoretically. I could be wrong, but isn't Jocketty's biggest problem the way he handles prospects?

Its late, I could be off base.

Highlifeman21
10-03-2007, 04:31 PM
IF Jocketty comes, does LaRussa follow?

Part of me says yes, most of me says no.

For whatever reason, I almost see LaRussa wanting to be a GM/Manager, so he can "buy his own groceries" to steal a phrase from Bill Parcells. Could be an interesting situation.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2007, 04:32 PM
Jocketty, old school, replaced by Luhnow, new school. Do folks really want the old school guy here?

pedro
10-03-2007, 04:32 PM
You'd have to think so. And I'm guessing Dave Duncan will be part of the package as well.

Duncan's signed through 2008. I have a hard time believing the Cards would let him defect to a division rival while under contract.

Caseyfan21
10-03-2007, 04:33 PM
You think BCast will go for it??? To interview Jocketty he would have to fire WayneK. Does he take that risk without a guarentee that Jocketty will take the job? I think a more likely scenario would be Jocketty hired as an assistant GM/advisor with the understanding he is the front runner for our GM should WayneK not get the job done or after his contract runs out. Then maybe with Jocketty on board in that role we can offer LaRussa the manager's job this offseason.

bucksfan2
10-03-2007, 04:35 PM
This is one year too early for Jocketty to leave StL. If the reds are in this same position next year then I think it is a definate possibility. However I think it is too early to send Wayne packing.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 04:38 PM
I wonder what the reaction's like over at stlouiscardinalszone.com?

:D

guttle11
10-03-2007, 04:38 PM
I'm not ready to give up on Wayne, but I think getting Jocketty here in some respect will greatly benefit the organization. Assistant GM, team president...heck, invent a job title for him. Just get his mind involved in the decision making process. He'd elevate the baseball IQ.

M2
10-03-2007, 04:40 PM
Duncan's signed through 2008. I have a hard time believing the Cards would let him defect to a division rival while under contract.

Jocketty was signed through 2008 too. If LaRussa's gone, Duncan will be too.

pedro
10-03-2007, 04:41 PM
Jocketty was signed through 2008 too. If LaRussa's gone, Duncan will be too.

You really think they'd fire Dave Duncan?

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 04:45 PM
Cardinals fans...at least this group, not too happy about it...

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-cardinals&tid=81272

Chip R
10-03-2007, 04:47 PM
You really think they'd fire Dave Duncan?


It probably wouldn't be a straight sacking. It'd be more along the lines of a resignation. You're not going to keep the guy there if he's not happy.

M2
10-03-2007, 04:48 PM
You really think they'd fire Dave Duncan?

No, I think Duncan will tell them that if LaRussa and Jocketty are gone, then he doesn't want to stick around.

Team Clark
10-03-2007, 05:11 PM
Not surprised one bit. I will be interested in seeing where he lands. Cast and Krivsky are pretty tight. HOWEVER, there is room for a President. Jocketty as President and Krivsky as GM. Could be like Alderson and Towers in SD.

red-in-la
10-03-2007, 05:17 PM
Jocketty, old school, replaced by Luhnow, new school. Do folks really want the old school guy here?

If it means he goes out year after year and finds a pitching staff, then yes, give me all the old school I can stand.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 05:19 PM
Jocketty, old school, replaced by Luhnow, new school. Do folks really want the old school guy here?

Current school hasn't won anything.

Old school has a track record of success...and it would give your organization a TON of credibility, which this organization has lacked for years.

M2
10-03-2007, 05:22 PM
Not surprised one bit. I will be interested in seeing where he lands. Cast and Krivsky are pretty tight. HOWEVER, there is room for a President. Jocketty as President and Krivsky as GM. Could be like Alderson and Towers in SD.

Possibly that might work. That would still leave the rails greased for LaRussa too.

Puffy
10-03-2007, 05:25 PM
Give me Jocketty and Duncan and I'll gladly welcome LaGenius into the fold.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 05:30 PM
Jocketty, old school, replaced by Luhnow, new school. Do folks really want the old school guy here?

I want "right" school. And that's Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 05:36 PM
There are two new school GMs in the postseason this year and six old school GMs. Now obviously that's not at all scientific, but what it says is that old school GMs can field good teams in the year 2007. That may be all it says, but I think it indicates that there are several ways to skin a cat.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2007, 05:36 PM
LaRussa and Jocketty could also decide to take a year off....

Dave Duncan's contract is up after the 2008 season, as is Wayne Krivsky's. Krivsky has a "mutual option" for 2009.

Perhaps they give him this year....he gets it done, end of debate...if he doesn't...you let him go and bring in "the regime"

Just a thought. Who knows.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 05:37 PM
LaRussa and Jocketty could also decide to take a year off....

Dave Duncan's contract is up after the 2008 season, as is Wayne Krivsky's. Krivsky has a "mutual option" for 2009.

Perhaps they give him this year....he gets it done, end of debate...if he doesn't...you let him go and bring in "the regime"

Just a thought. Who knows.

That's pretty unlikely.

I doubt the Reds pick up Jocketty. I wouldn't be surprised to see the guy retire.

On a side note: when I lived in St. Louis as a grad student, I got to hear Jocketty on the radio on Sunday mornings and there isn't a more civil, level-headed speaker in the game--no grousing, huffing and puffing, whining or moaning. Just pure class. His presence alone would raise the bar in the Cincinnati front office and set a tone of absolute professionalism, inside and out. Frankly, I don't know if Cincinnati would know what to do with a guy like Jocketty--I think all the radio goofs and media wimps would be stunned into silence.

Jocketty'd be the fish that shattered Cincy's little fishbowl. Plus, OBM would grit his teeth to nubs with St. Louis' mastermind in the FO of the Reds. He'd pull his hair out after every Reds' victory. :)

M2
10-03-2007, 05:45 PM
There are two new school GMs in the postseason this year and six old school GMs. Now obviously that's not at all scientific, but what it says is that old school GMs can field good teams in the year 2007. That may be all it says, but I think it indicates that there several ways to skin a cat.

I think you need to do a recount there.

New School

Epstein
Shapiro
Cashman (who was new school before it was chic)
Byrnes (formerly Theo's right hand man)
O'Dowd (he's always been considered new school, having coming out of the progressive Indians and Orioles systems)

Towers was decidedly New School too.

Old School

Gillick
Hendry
Stoneman

Though I'm with you on the whole "right school" thing.

jojo
10-03-2007, 05:47 PM
Jocketty, old school, replaced by Luhnow, new school. Do folks really want the old school guy here?

Not me. I don't want either Jockety or Larussa (or any combination of the above :cool:).

I want Cleveland to look toward Cincinnati to see how to run their team....

Unassisted
10-03-2007, 05:49 PM
Hey, what's with that writing on the wall?
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7208/jockettygraffitijo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

KronoRed
10-03-2007, 05:49 PM
Give me Jocketty and Duncan and I'll gladly welcome LaGenius into the fold.

Make Duncan the manager and cut out LaGenius:cool:

jojo
10-03-2007, 05:49 PM
I think you need to do a recount there.

New School

Epstein
Shapiro
Cashman (who was new school before it was chic)
Byrnes (formerly Theo's right hand man)
O'Dowd (he's always been considered new school, having coming out of the progressive Indians and Orioles systems)

Towers was decidedly New School too.

Old School

Gillick
Hendry
Stoneman

Though I'm with you on the whole "right school" thing.

Right and Gillick is about to bail on Philly which should tell fans in Philly what they have to look forward to in the near future....

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 05:53 PM
I think you need to do a recount there.

New School

Epstein
Shapiro
Cashman (who was new school before it was chic)
Byrnes (formerly Theo's right hand man)
O'Dowd (he's always been considered new school, having coming out of the progressive Indians and Orioles systems)

Towers was decidedly New School too.

Old School

Gillick
Hendry
Stoneman

Though I'm with you on the whole "right school" thing.

O'Dowd and Cashman?

Hardly.

Cashman may pay lip service to new metrics, but he runs his team about as old school as you can run a team.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 05:56 PM
Finally, I take issue with the notion that Jocketty is pure old school. That's a load of bunk, IMO. He had a number of stats guys in St. Louis.

jojo
10-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Finally, I take issue with the notion that Jocketty is pure old school. That's a load of bunk, IMO. He had a number of stats guys in St. Louis.

Jocketty is basically being pushed out of St Louis by "new school". A few years back Bill DeWitt began reshaping the organisation including the hiring of Jeff Luhnow (a business oriented fellow with gasp, no real baseball experience...sound familiar?). The statistics stuff like MGL etc were mainly due to Luhnow.

In fact, it has been no secret that Jocketty has been more unhappy in recent years as Luhnow's power has grown and a lot of it stems from these moves. Jocketty is pretty old school and his alliance with Larussa really speaks to this too.....

pedro
10-03-2007, 06:08 PM
I don't want Jocketty or Larussa. Their both at the tail end of their careers.

M2
10-03-2007, 06:10 PM
O'Dowd and Cashman?

Hardly.

Cashman may pay lip service to new metrics, but he runs his team about as old school as you can run a team.

Totally. Cashman's big on statistical analysis. Have you ever noticed what the Yankees pay for on offense? OB. They've been 1st or 2nd in the AL 8 of Cashman's 10 seasons on the job. He likes college arms in the draft. He picks up players from everywhere, including the waiver wire and from the independent leagues. Sure, he's got money and he uses it, but his player valuations are totally based on new school principles.

O'Dowd's been a poor GM most of his life, but he's always been data-driven. It was a new school theory which led him to make the disastrous decision to sign Mike Hampton and Denny Neagle. Just because you're new school doesn't mean you won't suck.

BrooklynRedz
10-03-2007, 06:14 PM
Not surprised one bit. I will be interested in seeing where he lands. Cast and Krivsky are pretty tight. HOWEVER, there is room for a President. Jocketty as President and Krivsky as GM. Could be like Alderson and Towers in SD.

Bingo. And not the first time I've heard this mentioned over the past two months.

M2
10-03-2007, 06:15 PM
Finally, I take issue with the notion that Jocketty is pure old school. That's a load of bunk, IMO. He had a number of stats guys in St. Louis.

Agreed. He's kind of no school when you get down to it. Seems to me like his guiding angel is opportunism. Krivsky's of a similar bent, but Jocketty's bagged more big game.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:18 PM
Just because you're new school doesn't mean you won't suck.

Enter stage left, Mr. Ricciardi.

I guess I see where you're coming from with O'Dowd, but it seems pretty old school to go with defense and a dink and dunk offense like he tried to do about 5 years ago.

RFS62
10-03-2007, 06:22 PM
Well, I can tell you how the Cardinals run their farm system. Old school in every way.

Situational hitting practice, get 'em on, get 'em over, get 'em in.

They teach the "Cardinal way" as gospel. I've talked to a few of their minor leaguers and they don't have a clue about sabrmetrics.

They take pride in being "old school".

Ltlabner
10-03-2007, 06:22 PM
I don't think it's totally out of the relms that Cast would bring in Jocketty and keep Wayne in some capacity. Even if Cast decided he didn't think Wayne could cut it as GM, Wayne has shown that he's pretty good at negotiations (Dunn deal to avoid arbitration, Harrang deal) and finding the diamonds in the rough. I think Cast would try to keep him on the team....whether Wayne can live with that is another story.

I'm not sold on Jocketty. But it would be fun to have him here to see when all those who worship him from afar suddenly decide he's an idiot because he makes a move they don't like.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:24 PM
I don't think it's totally out of the relms that Cast would bring in Jocketty and keep Wayne in some capacity. Even if Cast decided he didn't think Wayne could cut it as GM, Wayne has shown that he's pretty good at negotiations (Dunn deal to avoid arbitration, Harrang deal) and finding the diamonds in the rough. I think Cast would try to keep him on the team....whether Wayne can live with that is another story.

I'm not sold on Jocketty. But it would be fun to have him here to see when all those who worship him from afar suddenly decide he's an idiot because he makes a move they don't like.


Wayne might have to live with a lot. I can't see many organizations beating down the door to get to Krivsky.

Ltlabner
10-03-2007, 06:25 PM
Wayne might have to live with a lot. I can't see many organizations beating down the door to get to Krivsky.

Definatley not a time to get your ego bent out of shape and burn a bridge. Wayne would be wise to accept whatever "runner up" prize BCast might offer.

If any of that ever came to pass, of course.

M2
10-03-2007, 06:25 PM
Enter stage left, Mr. Ricciardi.

I guess I see where you're coming from with O'Dowd, but it seems pretty old school to go with defense and a dink and dunk offense like he tried to do about 5 years ago.

The theory was that everyone would have power in Coors and that primo defense would bail out the pitchers. Clearly that idea failed, big time. Now they're going the five-tool route as much as possible, which probably makes the most sense.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:26 PM
If any of that ever came to pass, of course.

To say the odds are long is an understatement. IMO.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2007, 06:29 PM
<bump>

RedsManRick
10-03-2007, 06:30 PM
Finally, I take issue with the notion that Jocketty is pure old school. That's a load of bunk, IMO. He had a number of stats guys in St. Louis.

While I'm sure Sig Mejdal does great work, I'm not willing to making an assumption about much weight management gives it. I would judge a GM predominantly on the words and actions coming directly from them. Outside of Towers, Brynes, Beane, Epstein, and Shapiro, I have yet to be fully convinced that any GM are truly new school.

I think there are a number of guys who "get it" in terms of the relevance and importance of a analytical approach, but either aren't willing or aren't able to fully operationalize it. JP Riccardi, Cashman, and O'Dowd being good examples.

That said, given the write I did on the Cards a few years back, I do think that Jocketty, once he decided (was allowed) to spend some money, did well with what he spent.

The Cardinals are on the down cycle, but I think what the A's have shown is that a well crafted and well run team goes .500 in a rebuilding year or one in which they suffer many injuries. A poorly crafted and run team goes .500 when everything goes their way.

M2
10-03-2007, 06:32 PM
Well, I can tell you how the Cardinals run their farm system. Old school in every way.

Situational hitting practice, get 'em on, get 'em over, get 'em in.

They teach the "Cardinal way" as gospel. I've talked to a few of their minor leaguers and they don't have a clue about sabrmetrics.

They take pride in being "old school".

Though that's a case of the squirrels not being able to see the whole forest more than anything else.

The "Cardinal Way" is a direct product of Branch Rickey, who could rise from the grave and immediately be considered a new school GM.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2007, 06:33 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Jocketty come over as president. But I don't like the idea of another top to bottom transition, which one would expect with a GM hiring. I'd be fine with Larussa/Duncan, but, as many have noted, Larussa seems burnt and is going to have to convince people otherwise, I think.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:35 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Jocketty come over as president. But I don't like the idea of another top to bottom transition, which one would expect with a GM hiring. I'd be fine with Larussa/Duncan, but, as many have noted, Larussa seems burnt and is going to have to convince people otherwise, I think.

I don't necessarily think that Jocketty's and Larussa's fortunes are so intimately tied.

Puffy
10-03-2007, 06:38 PM
I'm not sold on Jocketty.

How can you not be sold on Jocketty???

In 13 years (and when the Cards were not good before he got there) he built a team that won 6 Divisions, one wild card, 11 winning seasons, 2 NL pennants and a World Series. Not to mention his work before St Louis.

If thats not enough to sell someone what is?? And St Louis is not a NY, LA or Boston sized market although they are a larger market tham Cincy.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:41 PM
While I'm sure Sig Mejdal does great work, I'm not willing to making an assumption about much weight management gives it. I would judge a GM predominantly on the words and actions coming directly from them. Outside of Towers, Brynes, Beane, Epstein, and Shapiro, I have yet to be fully convinced that any GM are truly new school.

I think there are a number of guys who "get it" in terms of the relevance and importance of a analytical approach, but either aren't willing or aren't able to fully operationalize it. JP Riccardi, Cashman, and O'Dowd being good examples.

That said, given the write I did on the Cards a few years back, I do think that Jocketty, once he decided (was allowed) to spend some money, did well with what he spent.

The Cardinals are on the down cycle, but I think what the A's have shown is that a well crafted and well run team goes .500 in a rebuilding year or one in which they suffer many injuries. A poorly crafted and run team goes .500 when everything goes their way.

Jocketty did much more with the money he spent than, say, Cashman, and certainly as much as Epstein. Dollar for dollar.

I find it amusing how 7 seasons of total domination for a middle-of-the-country franchise like the Cardinals are dismissed with a wave of the hand.

I don't in the least disagree that it would be smart to hire a young, smart, hungry pup from one of the stats organizations. I'd support that completely, particularly over super old school Wayne. But I have to laugh at the notion that Jocketty's work is the product of some failed, dying system. What a load. Name the GMs who have accomplished a run like the one Jocketty had. Small assemblage, eh?

Chip R
10-03-2007, 06:50 PM
I wouldn't mind having Jocketty on board as president or whatever. Bob has said in the past that he doesn't want to be the one in the limelight -although I think he doth protests too much. If Wayne is OK with it, why not have Jocketty in a position like that. Of course I doubt Wayne would be OK with it. I think he'd be outraged and rightly so. But I think that this announcement makes it a lead pipe cinch LaRussa's not coming back to StL.

Ltlabner
10-03-2007, 06:50 PM
How can you not be sold on Jocketty???.

He definatley has an impressive resume. No argument there.

My reservations, such as they are, are that he seems to capitalize when the purse strings are opened. As somone said, an oportunist. I don't recall St. Louis being touted for having developed oodles and oodles of tallent in their farm system (and I don't really follow them, so I'm open to being wrong).

If his default setting is wheeling/dealing to build his team can he succeed within the budget constraints imposed by the Cincinnati payroll (both in terms of $$$ and player tallent for trade)? Will he have enough dollars to work with? Can he really make a difference with the money BCast is likely willing to spend (although the Milton money will be off the books and offer an artifical boost).

Also, I think Pedro raises a good point about him being at the tail end of the carear. How much gas does he have left in his tank? I mean, I'm not really impressed by getting 1/5th of his remaining passion for the game.

Those are just concerns. Perhaps they will be shown to be totally nuts. But I don't think they are unreasonable.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:54 PM
He definatley has an impressive resume. No argument there.

My reservations, such as they are, are that he seems to capitalize when the purse strings are opened. As somone said, an oportunist. I don't recall St. Louis being touted for having developed oodles and oodles of tallent in their farm system (and I don't really follow them, so I'm open to being wrong).

If his default setting is wheeling/dealing to build his team can he succeed within the budget constraints imposed by the Cincinnati payroll (both in terms of $$$ and player tallent for trade)? Will he have enough dollars to work with? Can he really make a difference with the money BCast is likely willing to spend (although the Milton money will be off the books and offer an artifical boost).

Also, I think Pedro raises a good point about him being at the tail end of the carear. How much gas does he have left in his tank? I mean, I'm not really impressed by getting 1/5th of his remaining passion for the game.

Those are just concerns. Perhaps they will be shown to be totally nuts. But I don't think they are unreasonable.

About the only good point among those is Pedro's. It is a valid concern that Jocketty might be tired and his heart out of it.

But really, though Jocketty had some coin to work with, he didn't have "coastal payroll," either. He squeezed massive talent out of every dime he was given. I can't think of a guy who got more bang out of his buck than Walt Jocketty 2000-2006.

Cedric
10-03-2007, 06:55 PM
I'm glad with the turnaround of this organization. It might be at a snails pace, but I'm liking the direction. No need for a move from me. I knew it was gonna take years to dig out of the Bowden/O'brien era.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 06:56 PM
I'm glad with the turnaround of this organization. It might be at a snails pace, but I'm liking the direction. No need for a move from me. I knew it was gonna take years to dig out of the Bowden/O'brien era.

I think the damage O'Brien exacted is WAY overstated.

Cedric
10-03-2007, 07:00 PM
I think the damage O'Brien exacted is WAY overstated.

In some ways I agree. I still don't think you can overstate the stupididity in the Milton contract and how 10 million a year kills a franchise with our budget. That's not even mentioning the fact the guy thought Tony Womack would be a good option at 2b last season. Without Wayne Krivsky we would be in deep trouble in the middle infield.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 07:03 PM
In some ways I agree. I still don't think you can overstate the stupididity in the Milton contract and how 10 million a year kills a franchise with our budget. That's not even mentioning the fact the guy thought Tony Womack would be a good option at 2b last season. Without Wayne Krivsky we would be in deep trouble in the middle infield.

He giveth (Phillips) and he taketh away (Gonzalez).

jojo
10-03-2007, 07:07 PM
He giveth (Phillips) and he taketh away (Gonzalez).

Or you could think of it this way.... he turned Lopez/Womack into Gonzo/Phillips in under a season and a half.... that might be as much as a collective 2.5 win defensive upgrade while also upgrading the offense...

Patrick Bateman
10-03-2007, 07:08 PM
My worries about Jocketty is that he made a lot of bad moves this season. He tried with a lot of guys, and basically all of them failed. I have to question if he is beginning to lose his touch.

The Mulder and Edmonds signings were a complete waste of money and they were pretty high stakes. As of now, the Cards aren't in very good shape. Few tradeable assets, an aging core, and a weak farm system. I'm guessing that Jocketty may be pretty happy to get out while he can.

He has obviously done a ton of good things for the Cards, and even though last year's WS win was flukish, he deserved one somewhere along the way. I'm just not sure if he's the same calibre GM now, that he was a few seasons ago, whether it be that he's tired of the job, or that his "old school" ways are being passed by newer methods.

Ltlabner
10-03-2007, 07:11 PM
Few tradeable assets, an aging core, and a weak farm system.

So is the Cards farm system really as week as my perception is?

If so, I'd have to wonder what he would do with an already weak (but somewhat improved) farm system here.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 07:12 PM
Or you could think of it this way.... he turned Lopez/Womack into Gonzo/Phillips in under a season and a half.... that might be as much as a collective 2.5 win defensive upgrade while also upgrading the offense...

And took on a $14 million commitment while not upgrading the defense at shortstop nearly enough. I'd have to say that one of the biggest disappointments of this season was Gonzalez's defense at short. He was lame; and I seriously doubt he'll put up an .800 + OPS again in the next two season.

M2
10-03-2007, 07:14 PM
I think the damage O'Brien exacted is WAY overstated.

I think it gets blithely dismissed far too easily. He's been gone for two years and the Reds still only have three contributors on the 25-man roster that he acquired (David Weathers, Norris Hopper and Javier Valentin).

Essentially he wasted two years. The opportunities missed are incalculable.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 07:15 PM
I think it gets blithely dismissed far too easily. He's been gone for two years and the Reds still only have three contributors on the 25-man roster that he acquired (David Weathers, Norris Hopper and Javier Valentin).

Essentially he wasted two years. The opportunities missed are incalculable.

Bowden wasted more than just two years. And we just wrapped up year two of Wayne's flounder-fest. The only names on the tongues of pundits concerning the Reds' farm are all DanO acquisitions.

Cedric
10-03-2007, 07:16 PM
And took on a $14 million commitment while not upgrading the defense at shortstop nearly enough. I'd have to say that one of the biggest disappointments of this season was Gonzalez's defense at short. He was lame; and I seriously doubt he'll put up an .800 + OPS again in the next two season.

This ballpark he probably will. And I'm not making excuses for Gonzo, but I firmly believe his errors were mental and he will bounce back next year. Hopefully his son is healthy also.

RFS62
10-03-2007, 07:25 PM
Though that's a case of the squirrels not being able to see the whole forest more than anything else.

The "Cardinal Way" is a direct product of Branch Rickey, who could rise from the grave and immediately be considered a new school GM.



Yeah, but I'm not talking about personnel moves. I'm talking about the very basics of how the game is taught to their prospects. Strategy, tactics and the basic fundamentals of how to play the game are the "Cardinal Way" of which I speak.

VR
10-03-2007, 07:28 PM
I'm struggling to recall his track record for quality signings or acquisitions?

It seems most of the garbage signed was turned into quality by either Duncan's prowess or LaRussa's team system.

Krusty
10-03-2007, 07:31 PM
How can you not be sold on Jocketty???

In 13 years (and when the Cards were not good before he got there) he built a team that won 6 Divisions, one wild card, 11 winning seasons, 2 NL pennants and a World Series. Not to mention his work before St Louis.

If thats not enough to sell someone what is?? And St Louis is not a NY, LA or Boston sized market although they are a larger market tham Cincy.


But the last two years he hasn't done much even trying to improve a World Series team that had a so-so won-loss record in 2006 and a team which the wheels fell off this season.

Unassisted
10-03-2007, 07:32 PM
I don't want Jocketty or Larussa. Their both at the tail end of their careers.
Guys who've had some success who are looking for their last job are usually looking for a way to burnish their legacy, not torpedo it. OTOH, if they're really just old and tired, they may fail despite the best intentions.

I like TC's notion of installing Jocketty as a layer of management between Krivsky and Cast. Checks and balances could be a good thing. Besides, nobody wants to see John Allen back in that role.

jojo
10-03-2007, 07:33 PM
And took on a $14 million commitment while not upgrading the defense at shortstop nearly enough. I'd have to say that one of the biggest disappointments of this season was Gonzalez's defense at short. He was lame; and I seriously doubt he'll put up an .800 + OPS again in the next two season.

I'm willing to give Gonzo a pass this season because it was pretty clear his mind was elsewhere even when he was with the team in the spring. Leather doesn't have a shelf life especially at his age though....

M2
10-03-2007, 07:37 PM
Bowden wasted more than just two years. And we just wrapped up year two of Wayne's flounder-fest. The only names on the tongues of pundits concerning the Reds' farm are all DanO acquisitions.

Bowden was around longer, but Dunn, Encarnacion and Votto are Bowden products. So 4.5 seasons after he got the sack, 3/8 of the opening day lineup is likely to be in town courtesy of JimBo (1/2 if Jr. doesn't get dealt). O'Brien never achieved that, even when he was the GM.

And throw as much mud as you want at Krivsky, but I see Phillips, Arroyo and Hamilton. I see prospects progressing in the minors instead of flaming out. I'm not saying Krivsky's a genius, but he's done some things right. He's at least shown some awareness of what major league talents looks like (bullpen excluded). O'Brien's entire legacy is based on stuff he barely had any control over (two #1 picks and an international signing). O'Brien could have shown up once a week, done a little paperwork and spent the rest of his time fishing and gotten that done.

Krusty
10-03-2007, 07:38 PM
I think it gets blithely dismissed far too easily. He's been gone for two years and the Reds still only have three contributors on the 25-man roster that he acquired (David Weathers, Norris Hopper and Javier Valentin).

Essentially he wasted two years. The opportunities missed are incalculable.

I disagree. Wasn't it on O'Brien's watch that he drafted Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce and Cueto? O'Brien told ownership it would be a five-year plan to get the Reds back on track and they didn't want to hear it. Krivsky is hired and pretty much the losing has continued but we are now seeing the fruits of the farm system rise to the major leagues.

O'Brien was right when he said it would take five years to change things around. It was wrong for him to cave in to ownership demands to sign a free agent pitcher like Milton to appease the fans and make bonehead moves like signing Womack to play second base.

MrCinatit
10-03-2007, 07:39 PM
Guys who've had some success who are looking for their last job are usually looking for a way to burnish their legacy, not torpedo it. OTOH, if they're really just old and tired, they may fail despite the best intentions.

I like TC's notion of installing Jocketty as a layer of management between Krivsky and Cast. Checks and balances could be a good thing. Besides, nobody wants to see John Allen back in that role.

Put me on board with that idea, as well. If Wayne fails during the off season/next year, we have a backup.
If Wayne does OK, then we also have Walt in the front office, instead of Allen.

OnBaseMachine
10-03-2007, 07:39 PM
Jocketty'd be the fish that shattered Cincy's little fishbowl. Plus, OBM would grit his teeth to nubs with St. Louis' mastermind in the FO of the Reds. He'd pull his hair out after every Reds' victory. :)

No. I'm a Reds fan, so every win they get pleases me, no matter how they win or who is behind that win. Jocketty is a good GM but not the genius you make him out to be.

M2
10-03-2007, 07:39 PM
Yeah, but I'm not talking about personnel moves. I'm talking about the very basics of how the game is taught to their prospects. Strategy, tactics and the basic fundamentals of how to play the game are the "Cardinal Way" of which I speak.

My guess is you'd see the same basic set of things being taught in the A's system. Certainly the A's turn out fundamentally sound players.

jojo
10-03-2007, 07:40 PM
But the last two years he hasn't done much even trying to improve a World Series team that had a so-so won-loss record in 2006 and a team which the wheels fell off this season.

To be fair, Jocketty's last few seasons were in a climate were his influence on the direction the Cards were going was shrinking.

It's not a surprise that he left the organisation. I'm surprised though that he was apparently fired (i'm not sure if that's accurate but it's the last word I heard before their presser). If he was essentially fired, that's pretty telling...

reds44
10-03-2007, 07:41 PM
I disagree. Wasn't it on O'Brien's watch that he drafted Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce and Cueto? O'Brien told ownership it would be a five-year plan to get the Reds back on track and they didn't want to hear it. Krivsky is hired and pretty much the losing has continued but we are now seeing the fruits of the farm system rise to the major leagues.

O'Brien was right when he said it would take five years to change things around. It was wrong for him to cave in to ownership demands to sign a free agent pitcher like Milton to appease the fans and make bonehead moves like signing Womack to play second base.
Cueto was not a draft pick as he was not from the U.S. or Canada.

If anybody remember what the pitching rotation looked like heading into 2006 with Dave Williams penciled in as the 2nd starter and a bullpen worse then it is now, will know O'Brien's five year plan was not working.

jojo
10-03-2007, 07:43 PM
I disagree. Wasn't it on O'Brien's watch that he drafted Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce and Cueto? O'Brien told ownership it would be a five-year plan to get the Reds back on track and they didn't want to hear it. Krivsky is hired and pretty much the losing has continued but we are now seeing the fruits of the farm system rise to the major leagues.

O'Brien was right when he said it would take five years to change things around. It was wrong for him to cave in to ownership demands to sign a free agent pitcher like Milton to appease the fans and make bonehead moves like signing Womack to play second base.

I've heard from several sources (mostly heresay though) that O'Brien didn't really have the authority to make some of the major personnel decisions relating to the active roster that he would've liked to make.

Chip R
10-03-2007, 07:44 PM
I'm struggling to recall his track record for quality signings or acquisitions?

It seems most of the garbage signed was turned into quality by either Duncan's prowess or LaRussa's team system.


http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071003&content_id=2247373&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl


Jocketty presided over many of the biggest trades in recent franchise history. In 1997, he brought in Mark McGwire from Oakland for Blake Stein, T.J. Mathews and Eric Ludwick. He acquired Jim Edmonds from the Angels for Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy in 2000, and Scott Rolen from the Phillies in 2002 for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin and Bud Smith.

That's not even including Chris Carpenter and picking Darrel Kyle up when he failed miserably in Colorado.

M2
10-03-2007, 07:54 PM
I disagree. Wasn't it on O'Brien's watch that he drafted Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce and Cueto?

Already addressed that above, but three rubber stamps on decisions made by his lieutenants in two years isn't exactly the sign of a good GM. Care to list the players DanO found?


O'Brien told ownership it would be a five-year plan to get the Reds back on track and they didn't want to hear it.

He was well on his way to making it longer than five years. Krivsky's job to date has been attempting to pull the franchise out of the nosedive DanO threw it into. I'll guaran-damn-tee you that DanO wouldn't have turned up Arroyo, Phillips and Hamilton.


O'Brien was right when he said it would take five years to change things around.

O'Brien was collecting detritus like Dave Williams and Tony Womack before he left. If he were still around, the Reds would be in year five of his "plan," adding Jay Bruce (provided Bruce didn't get twisted like Votto did under DanO's "take the first pitch no matter what" regime) to a 100-loss club and hell-bent on throwing Bailey and Cueto to the dogs before they've had a chance to mature. In other words, year five would only have been the beginning of a new debacle.

The man was the worst GM ever invented and we're incredibly fortunate he wasn't allowed to fester.

RedsManRick
10-03-2007, 08:12 PM
Jocketty did much more with the money he spent than, say, Cashman, and certainly as much as Epstein. Dollar for dollar.

I find it amusing how 7 seasons of total domination for a middle-of-the-country franchise like the Cardinals are dismissed with a wave of the hand.

I don't in the least disagree that it would be smart to hire a young, smart, hungry pup from one of the stats organizations. I'd support that completely, particularly over super old school Wayne. But I have to laugh at the notion that Jocketty's work is the product of some failed, dying system. What a load. Name the GMs who have accomplished a run like the one Jocketty had. Small assemblage, eh?

Name one other GM who drafted Ted Williams 2.0 in the 13th round. Lucky or great, you be the judge. Don't get me wrong, Jocketty has made a lot of very smart decisions. But he didn't build a winner until Pujols arrived and he got an extra $35M to spend on Kile, Edmonds, Rolen, etc. Trust me, I did my homework on how the Cards built their mini-dynasty.

If he's to be believed, Bowden would've landed both Bartolo Colon, Chuck Finley, and Rolen if could've spent the money Jocketty was given.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 08:25 PM
Name one other GM who drafted Ted Williams 2.0 in the 13th round. Lucky or great, you be the judge. Don't get me wrong, Jocketty has made a lot of very smart decisions. But he didn't build a winner until Pujols arrived and he got an extra $35M to spend on Kile, Edmonds, Rolen, etc. Trust me, I did my homework on how the Cards built their mini-dynasty.

If he's to be believed, Bowden would've landed both Bartolo Colon, Chuck Finley, and Rolen if could've spent the money Jocketty was given.

He built the 2000 squad without Pujols. They almost went to the Series. And all the pieces of the 2001 puzzle were there to complement Pujols' arrival. But don't let me stop you from chipping away at a great legacy.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 08:27 PM
The man was the worst GM ever invented and we're incredibly fortunate he wasn't allowed to fester.

That's my point viz. overstating the DanO era. It was short, mercifully so.

The problem is that now the DanO era is major armor for Krivsky against the criticisms he rightly deserves.

M2
10-03-2007, 08:29 PM
That's my point viz. overstating the DanO era. It was short, mercifully slow.

The problem is that now the DanO era is major armor for Krivsky against the criticisms he rightly deserves.

I'd say his major armor is Arroyo, Phillips and Hamilton. Kriv's been a mixed bad, but there is some there there.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 08:33 PM
I'd say his major armor is Arroyo, Phillips and Hamilton. Kriv's been a mixed bad, but there is some there there.

Two years' work? I call that treading water. And I call treading water not getting the job done.

Aronchis
10-03-2007, 08:34 PM
Cueto was not a draft pick as he was not from the U.S. or Canada.

If anybody remember what the pitching rotation looked like heading into 2006 with Dave Williams penciled in as the 2nd starter and a bullpen worse then it is now, will know O'Brien's five year plan was not working.

Who cares about Dave Williams. He was nothing more than a throw away for getting rid of Casey per Cast.

5 year plans go on longer than stated alot of times. If you draft with enough luck, talent fills in.

M2
10-03-2007, 08:49 PM
Two years' work? I call that treading water. And I call treading water not getting the job done.

Those are the notables. Hatteberg was a shrewd pickup. Ward for Lohse for Maloney was a good bit of business. Castro and Henry for Conine was an underrated deal that could create some depth in the future. Ross had a dynamite 2006. I thought the Livingston pickup was cagy (though obviously the injury doesn't help). Burton sure worked out well. And I really like that the organization, for the first time in years, has prospects flourishing instead of floundering.

Obviously he's made his mistakes too. I won't shed a tear if he's replaced, but, unlike DanO, I won't have any hard feelings.

My main criticism of Krivsky is he seems to lack direction. He's neither rebuilt nor loaded up enough. As such, I'm not sure he has what it takes to mold a winning team out of what he's going to have to work with over the next year or three.

Phhhl
10-03-2007, 08:54 PM
The Cardinals have had success, but I always find myself wondering how. I don't like most of their free agent pickups from year to year (Sidney Ponson, Brett Tomko, David Eckstein, Juan Encarnacion, Julian Tavarez, Kip Wells, etc...). Aside from Pujols and Ankiel, I rarely see them develop exceptional players. Tony Larussa micromanages his team to death. I really have to wonder if the team of Jockety and Larussa might come in here and set this team back yet again trying to wheel and deal for ex-Angels and role players at the expense of development. I have been mystified by the Cardinals success for over a decade running.

I think I'd take Dave Duncan, though.

Team Clark
10-03-2007, 08:55 PM
That's pretty unlikely.

I doubt the Reds pick up Jocketty. I wouldn't be surprised to see the guy retire.

On a side note: when I lived in St. Louis as a grad student, I got to hear Jocketty on the radio on Sunday mornings and there isn't a more civil, level-headed speaker in the game--no grousing, huffing and puffing, whining or moaning. Just pure class. His presence alone would raise the bar in the Cincinnati front office and set a tone of absolute professionalism, inside and out. Frankly, I don't know if Cincinnati would know what to do with a guy like Jocketty--I think all the radio goofs and media wimps would be stunned into silence.

Jocketty'd be the fish that shattered Cincy's little fishbowl. Plus, OBM would grit his teeth to nubs with St. Louis' mastermind in the FO of the Reds. He'd pull his hair out after every Reds' victory. :)

I could not agree more. Walt ooozes class and is a great mentor to those who work with him. Great guy that I would welcome here in Cincy in any capacity.

Team Clark
10-03-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm struggling to recall his track record for quality signings or acquisitions?

It seems most of the garbage signed was turned into quality by either Duncan's prowess or LaRussa's team system.

Well isn't that Jocketty's job to turn them over to Duncan and LaRussa? Last time I looked Walt was a GM not a coach. His job is to sign guys that FIT into Duncan and LaRussa's strengths. How many other teams get good years from Suppan, Marquis and even Carpenter? Maybe a few but not many. Those are just a FEW of his moves that worked out for his club. So, he missed a few this year. The guy's not flawless. Give me a GM who gets 6 out of 10 moves right and I would be real happy. Give me Jocketty who seems to get 7 or 8 out of 10 right and I am elated.

RedsManRick
10-03-2007, 09:22 PM
He built the 2000 squad without Pujols. They almost went to the Series. And all the pieces of the 2001 puzzle were there to complement Pujols' arrival. But don't let me stop you from chipping away at a great legacy.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62580

He built the 2000 squad on the backs of a $18M payroll increase that facilitated the trades for Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, and Pat Hentgen. I've give him a ton of credit for buying low on those guys and not giving up future substantial major leaguers in the process. Big props there. But he couldn't have done it without that 38% payroll increase.

2000-2002 was the best stretch in terms of winning % and was the perfect melding of big name guys getting big money and producing big and little name guys getting little money producing big.

By 2003, the payroll had increased another $24M to $84M thanks to the FA signings of Tino Martinez, Jason Isringhausen, and the resigning of Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen. The cheap and very intelligent acquisition of Chris Carpenter and the development of Matt Morris made them championship caliber. Injuries and regression of some guys scuttled 2003 itself, but primed for 2004.

By 2005, the second of the best 2 years, the bloom was set tp come off the rose. Edmonds and Rolen were getting older and beginning to breakdown. Jocketty tried to repeat the Kile trade by getting Mark Mulder, but gave up 3 very good young players instead of scrubs. Larry Walker had been brought in at steep financial cost to buoy the offensive loss of Drew (for Wainwright). The payroll at this point was up to $92M, double the 1999 payroll and 6th in the majors.

2006 was the beginning of the end as the injury problems got worse, the raise to Pujols added no production but prevent money being spent bring in talent elsewhere. Very little talent was added through the system at no cost. Walker retired. Jason Marquis and Matt Morris imploded. They won the WS (which they deserved as a franchise), but the team wasn't very good.

In 2007, the Edmonds/Rolen pair is older, less productive and still really expensive. Carpenter had an injury relapse and isn't going to be cheap anymore. Pujols is still a monster, but now at cost. After Wainwright and Reyes, there is no rotation and there's very little in the pen besides Izzy. There is virtually nothing in the prospect cupboard (see the Mulder trade) ready to help out.
Basically, they're locked in to a $90M payroll for talent that won't win the division and they have few hopes of getting significant improvement from below. No wonder Jocketty left.

He had a great run where he combined savvy trades, smart FA signings, good prospect development, great luck, and an owner willing to double his yearly spending happens to facilitate it all. Absolutely a wonderful job.

But he also set them up for the rough 2007 and next few years they're likely to experience while they redistribute their resource allocation and build the production base again.

Why do we have to focus on just the good things and not consider the whole package? I never said he was a bad GM. I'm just saying that he had significant help from ownership in the form of dollar bills and that he rammed the ship in to an iceberg before he bailed. We've had a number of GMs who sunk the ship before it left port, so Jocketty deserves a ton of credit for his accomplishments. But everything deserves full context.

alexad
10-03-2007, 09:44 PM
We keep talking about Jocketty as the GM. What if he is hired to replace John Allen??????? I mean it would actually put him in a higher position than GM and he would have some say in what happens on the field. Just saying............

WVRed
10-03-2007, 10:33 PM
We keep talking about Jocketty as the GM. What if he is hired to replace John Allen??????? I mean it would actually put him in a higher position than GM and he would have some say in what happens on the field. Just saying............

Plus Jocketty could decide to take over as GM if need be.

Detroit did it with Dave Dombrowski and that worked out well.

VR
10-03-2007, 10:40 PM
Well isn't that Jocketty's job to turn them over to Duncan and LaRussa? Last time I looked Walt was a GM not a coach. His job is to sign guys that FIT into Duncan and LaRussa's strengths. How many other teams get good years from Suppan, Marquis and even Carpenter? Maybe a few but not many. Those are just a FEW of his moves that worked out for his club. So, he missed a few this year. The guy's not flawless. Give me a GM who gets 6 out of 10 moves right and I would be real happy. Give me Jocketty who seems to get 7 or 8 out of 10 right and I am elated.

Jim Bowden was the genius behind Smiley/ Schourek et al in the mid 90's, not Gullett?


I love Jocketty's class...a lot. But the days of acquiring garbage and expecting them to turn into gold haven't been around in Cincy for 10 years.....the fans are just convinced that's the right approach.

McGuire/ Edmonds could have been had by many, and certainly succeeded because of LaGoofy's system (steroids may have helped a tad as well)

Dave Duncan's teaching, LaRussa's program, and St. Louis' 'system' won the championship last year, IMHO. Jocketty...not so much.

Team Clark
10-03-2007, 10:47 PM
Jim Bowden was the genius behind Smiley/ Schourek et al in the mid 90's, not Gullett?

Actually Schourek has said publicly on a number of occasions that Grant Jackson was the person who turned him around. Just sayin'.

Dave Duncan's teaching, LaRussa's program, and St. Louis' 'system' won the championship last year, IMHO. Jocketty...not so much.

So Jocketty is not part of the system by placing players in the care of his manager and pitching coach? I just don't understand where you are coming from. The GM is just as much a part of the equation as the coaches IMO.

Chip R
10-03-2007, 10:49 PM
Dave Duncan's teaching, LaRussa's program, and St. Louis' 'system' won the championship last year, IMHO. Jocketty...not so much.


How did the players get there? They just appear out of thin air? Who hired LaRussa and Duncan? I'm not saying Jocketty deserves the lion's share of the credit but let's not diminish it.

VR
10-03-2007, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VR
Jim Bowden was the genius behind Smiley/ Schourek et al in the mid 90's, not Gullett?

Actually Schourek has said publicly on a number of occasions that Grant Jackson was the person who turned him around. Just sayin'.

Dave Duncan's teaching, LaRussa's program, and St. Louis' 'system' won the championship last year, IMHO. Jocketty...not so much.

So Jocketty is not part of the system by placing players in the care of his manager and pitching coach? I just don't understand where you are coming from. The GM is just as much a part of the equation as the coaches IMO.


When you have a system, a program, and superior teaching....along with top notch scouting and a commitment to winning (a huge checkbook doesn't hurt either)...a lot of GM's can get it done.

Take away Duncan alone....and it's pretty certain the Morris', Kiles, Weavers, Suppans are dreck. It doesn't take a genius to acquire overpaid players that other teams dump. It does take genius to turn them into quality. So, who is the genius? Duncan, that's who. I watched it in Oakland for years and years.

VR
10-03-2007, 10:58 PM
How did the players get there? They just appear out of thin air? Who hired LaRussa and Duncan? I'm not saying Jocketty deserves the lion's share of the credit but let's not diminish it.

The same way they get to Cincy. The exact same way. But when they get to Cincy...they are greeted with an organization with no teachers, no program, and a complete lack of vision or understanding of how to best utilize talent. Do we really think those acquisions

BTW, I am not Jocketty bashing. I'm just bringing attention to the genius that is Mr. Duncan.

PuffyPig
10-03-2007, 11:02 PM
On a side note: when I lived in St. Louis as a grad student, I got to hear Jocketty on the radio on Sunday mornings and there isn't a more civil, level-headed speaker in the game--no grousing, huffing and puffing, whining or moaning. Just pure class. His presence alone would raise the bar in the Cincinnati front office and set a tone of absolute professionalism, inside and out.

I think that "civil, level headed speaker" for a GM is like saying that our SS is "scrappy".

Sure it sounds nice, and it's better than nothing, but at the end of the day, it won't win you many games.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2007, 11:06 PM
I think that "civil, level headed speaker" for a GM is like saying that our SS is "scrappy".

Sure it sounds nice, and it's better than nothing, but at the end of the day, it won't win you many games.

That's why I prefaced it with a "side note."

Chip R
10-03-2007, 11:07 PM
I agree that Duncan is probably the best pitching coach in the game. But you said that the StL system is a great factor in their success. Who ran that system?

Unassisted
10-03-2007, 11:18 PM
We keep talking about Jocketty as the GM. What if he is hired to replace John Allen??????? I mean it would actually put him in a higher position than GM and he would have some say in what happens on the field. Just saying............Nice idea, but John Allen no longer gets anywhere near baseball decisionmaking since Castellini took over. He's more like a peer to Krivsky on the org chart and he deals with things like ballpark operations and ad sales.

REDREAD
10-03-2007, 11:25 PM
Man, I don't see the contempt for LaRussa.. All he's done is taken three different franchises to the World Series (IIRC).. He's installed a winning attitude everywhere he's been.
In Oakland, the guys said he raised the intensity and gave the team a "football" attitude.
He routinely outmanages the sad excuse for Managers the Reds employ.

Maybe I'm alone, but I'd be ESTASTIC to get LaRussa here. He'd easily be the best manager we've had since Pinellia. I don't know if he'd want to come here, but if so it would be awesome.

If getting Jocketty meant sacking Wayne, I could live with that.
I'm not sure having Jocketty and Wayne together would work. Wayne has shown that he is not very inclined to listen to other people. It would probably end up causing a lot of turmoil to have both those guys here.

REDREAD
10-03-2007, 11:37 PM
I'm struggling to recall his track record for quality signings or acquisitions?

It seems most of the garbage signed was turned into quality by either Duncan's prowess or LaRussa's team system.

Picked up Edmonds and Rolen for practically nothing.
JD Drew for Wainwright
Picking up Larry Walker last year for the stretch run.

There are more, but that's all I can think of right now.
Basically, when his team is close, he usually adds exactly what the team needs.

As far as their farm system goes, it isn't that bad. He's traded a lot of prospects for vets (as he should during their go-for-it run), yet they've still managed to crank some young talent.. arguably they've been as good as the Reds (which isn't setting the bar too high).. Reyes, Pujolis, Duncan, Molinda come to mind, and there's probably more that I overlooked.

paulrichjr
10-04-2007, 01:03 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3048182&name=law_keith

Jocketty got a raw dealposted: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

What exactly does a GM have to do these days to keep his job?

Walt Jocketty spent 13 seasons at the helm of the St. Louis Cardinals. In that time, they racked up seven playoff appearances, three National League pennants and a World Championship (an unlikely one, but still, the flag looks the same). Their seven-year run of winning seasons was snapped this year, due in no small part to injuries to Chris Carpenter, Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds, and 2007 marked just the fourth losing season in Jocketty's tenure.

Jocketty was let go due to non-baseball reasons, but sometimes the baseball reasons need to win out. His track record at the major league level includes some outstanding moves:

• He picked up Rolen for a young Placido Polanco back in 2002. Rolen was a star at the time having a down year, with Dallas Green killing him in the press at every opportunity; Rolen hit 15 homers in two-plus months with the Cardinals, finished fourth in the MVP voting in 2004 as he had his best year and the Cardinals won the pennant, and had another excellent year in 2006 before injuries wrecked his season this year. Polanco became a great hitter for average starting in 2005, but the value Rolen provided in the short term made this a slam-dunk for the Cardinals.

• He acquired Edmonds for Kent Bottenfield and then-prospect Adam Kennedy. Bottenfield was out of the majors for good inside of 15 months and Kennedy eventually developed into a fringy regular, but Edmonds became a star, hitting 172 homers with a .410 OBP over the next five years, with great defense in center.

• He picked up a broken-down Carpenter after the 2002 season, and while Carpenter needed another shoulder surgery before he was able to pitch for the Cards, he turned in three fantastic years, winning a Cy Young Award and coming in third the following year. While Jocketty eventually gave Carpenter a huge contract extension, the cost of the initial pickup was minimal; Carpenter came to St. Louis because the Cards offered him a spot on the 40-man roster and Toronto wouldn't.

• He traded an underachieving and soon-to-be-free-agent J.D. Drew to Atlanta for Jason Marquis and Adam Wainwright. Marquis gave the Cardinals two solid years before one awful one, while Wainwright became the closer on the 2006 championship club before becoming an above-average starter this year. Drew spent one year with the Braves before leaving as a free agent.

If Jocketty has had a major failing, it's that the Cardinals' farm system was not especially productive during his tenure, but that area of the business was taken away from him over the last two years, and the team's drafts in that time have not been particularly strong. And that leads into the real reason for the friction that led to Jocketty's departure: the rise of Jeff Luhnow, hired by owner Bill DeWitt and handed increasing amounts of responsibility within baseball operations, to the detriment of several of Jocketty's longtime lieutenants. This situation, where the general manager did not have full authority over his team's scouting and player developments, appears to be unique within the game, and it's all the more unusual given Jocketty's track record and reputation.

St. Louis is now in a difficult spot. If it's true that Luhnow -- who apparently won't be a candidate for the GM position -- is untouchable due to his relationship with the team's primary owner, many GM candidates with backgrounds in either scouting or player development will balk at the position because of how limited their control will be. They may be forced to fill the position from within (John Mozeliak, their former scouting director and now the interim GM, would be a solid choice), or to accept a candidate whose interest in being GM supersedes his concern at the lack of control. Jocketty, meanwhile, should have his pick of positions, as many teams would be thrilled to obtain a GM with his reputation and track record, and you can bet that one of his first questions for a prospective employer will be, "Can I pick my own scouting director?"

pedro
10-04-2007, 01:06 AM
They conveniently left the Daren Haren for Mark Mulder trade out of that analysis.

fearofpopvol1
10-04-2007, 01:42 AM
And that leads into the real reason for the friction that led to Jocketty's departure: the rise of Jeff Luhnow, hired by owner Bill DeWitt and handed increasing amounts of responsibility within baseball operations, to the detriment of several of Jocketty's longtime lieutenants. This situation, where the general manager did not have full authority over his team's scouting and player developments, appears to be unique within the game, and it's all the more unusual given Jocketty's track record and reputation.


For those suggesting that Krivsky be a middle-man between Krivsky and BCast (or a President) should read the above. While it sounds like a good idea in practice, it's really not a good idea.

mth123
10-04-2007, 04:29 AM
Not surprised one bit. I will be interested in seeing where he lands. Cast and Krivsky are pretty tight. HOWEVER, there is room for a President. Jocketty as President and Krivsky as GM. Could be like Alderson and Towers in SD.

My first thought as well.

camisadelgolf
10-04-2007, 05:21 AM
Personally, I want Jocketty to have nothing to do with the team. He has 15 years of mistakes to choose from, but I'll limit myself to the most recent ones.

1. Scott Rolen is making $36M over the next three years with a no-trade clause.

2. Jim Edmonds is making $8M next year with a no-trade clause.

3. Chris Carpenter, who pitched only one game this year, has a career ERA over 4.00, has had major arm surgery in the past, had another major arm surgery this year, and is still owed over $50M.

4. He traded Dan Haren (the Athletics' current ace), Kiko Calero (solid reliever with a career ERA of 3.55 and averages more than a strikeout per inning), and Daric Barton (who is 22 years old and one of the Athletics' elite prospects who was extremely impressive in MLB this year) for Mark Mulder, who has a 7.68 ERA over the past two years and has been paid several million dollars to do so (oh, and he's still owed several million dollars, as well).

5. He traded for Mike Maroth, who made Phil Dumatrait look good.

6. He gave Adam Kennedy a three year, $10M contract. Kennedy after the first year of his contract, is hitting .219 with a .572 OPS.

7. The team he has put together often plays So Taguchi. As a starter.

8. Juan Encarnacion is owed $11.5M over the next two years, and he hasn't hit 20 homeruns or stolen 20 bases since 2002. His OBP always stinks, too.

Has Wayne Krivsky been perfect? Absolutely not. Mike Stanton, Rheal Cormier, Juan Castro, Gary Majewski, and Kirk Saarloos all say 'hi'. But how many mistakes has he made as big as Jocketty's over the past couple years?

In 2005, the Cardinals won 27 more games than the Reds. If you expected Krivsky to make the Reds better than the Cardinals in a span of two years, I think you're crazy. Still, over the past two years, Krivsky came close because the Cardinals have won a total of nine more games than the Reds, and the Cardinals have been doing it with almost 50% more payroll.

The Reds already have their GM of the future, and his name is Wayne Krivsky. He has already helped put together one of the best farm systems in baseball. He has had to endure Eric Milton and Ken Griffey while inheriting only one viable option at starter (Aaron Harang). Before you know it, in a couple years (thanks to the extensions Krivsky signed), the Reds will have Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney in the rotation while all the key members of the offense and defense (Ross, Votto, Phillips, Encarnacion, Gonzalez, Hamilton, Bruce) will still be around on cheap or reasonable contracts.

mth123
10-04-2007, 05:37 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62580

He built the 2000 squad on the backs of a $18M payroll increase that facilitated the trades for Darryl Kile, Jim Edmonds, and Pat Hentgen. I've give him a ton of credit for buying low on those guys and not giving up future substantial major leaguers in the process. Big props there. But he couldn't have done it without that 38% payroll increase.

2000-2002 was the best stretch in terms of winning % and was the perfect melding of big name guys getting big money and producing big and little name guys getting little money producing big.

By 2003, the payroll had increased another $24M to $84M thanks to the FA signings of Tino Martinez, Jason Isringhausen, and the resigning of Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen. The cheap and very intelligent acquisition of Chris Carpenter and the development of Matt Morris made them championship caliber. Injuries and regression of some guys scuttled 2003 itself, but primed for 2004.

By 2005, the second of the best 2 years, the bloom was set tp come off the rose. Edmonds and Rolen were getting older and beginning to breakdown. Jocketty tried to repeat the Kile trade by getting Mark Mulder, but gave up 3 very good young players instead of scrubs. Larry Walker had been brought in at steep financial cost to buoy the offensive loss of Drew (for Wainwright). The payroll at this point was up to $92M, double the 1999 payroll and 6th in the majors.

2006 was the beginning of the end as the injury problems got worse, the raise to Pujols added no production but prevent money being spent bring in talent elsewhere. Very little talent was added through the system at no cost. Walker retired. Jason Marquis and Matt Morris imploded. They won the WS (which they deserved as a franchise), but the team wasn't very good.

In 2007, the Edmonds/Rolen pair is older, less productive and still really expensive. Carpenter had an injury relapse and isn't going to be cheap anymore. Pujols is still a monster, but now at cost. After Wainwright and Reyes, there is no rotation and there's very little in the pen besides Izzy. There is virtually nothing in the prospect cupboard (see the Mulder trade) ready to help out.
Basically, they're locked in to a $90M payroll for talent that won't win the division and they have few hopes of getting significant improvement from below. No wonder Jocketty left.

He had a great run where he combined savvy trades, smart FA signings, good prospect development, great luck, and an owner willing to double his yearly spending happens to facilitate it all. Absolutely a wonderful job.

But he also set them up for the rough 2007 and next few years they're likely to experience while they redistribute their resource allocation and build the production base again.

Why do we have to focus on just the good things and not consider the whole package? I never said he was a bad GM. I'm just saying that he had significant help from ownership in the form of dollar bills and that he rammed the ship in to an iceberg before he bailed. We've had a number of GMs who sunk the ship before it left port, so Jocketty deserves a ton of credit for his accomplishments. But everything deserves full context.

This is pretty accurate. My spin is a little different though. IMO the key move of Jocketty's regime that was the root of it all was getting LaRussa (though I'm not a big fan of LaRussa).

LaRussa's ties to Oakland was what greased the wheels for the two other acquisitions that set everything in motion:

- 1. The acquisition of McGwire, which took a franchise with an already strong fan base and turned it into a national mania. The increased revenue from this turn of events resulted in other acquisitions like Rolen, Edmonds, etc.

- 2. The acquisistion of Dave Duncan. This move was key to the pitching reclamations that have been a staple of the Cardinals pitching staff this decade.

The good fortune of a middle rounds draft pick developing into the game's best hitter has helped the wave to continue after McGwire has been long gone. But now, as his aging acquisitions fueled by McGwire's cash influx and Duncan's ability (Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter) start to decline, the franchise is taking a downturn.

I don't view Jocketty as a genius, but I could see him as Presdient in Cincy as a potential positive. WK took a promotion to move from Assistant GM to GM to come here and the same would be true of Jocketty moving from GM to President. Since there are at a max only 30 of each such jobs available (not every team has both), its possible that they could co-exist. WK has shown a number of positives in his tenure with his low risk high reward acquisitions such as Phillips, Hamilton and Burton. He's also shown a propensity for doing the wrong thing when the right moves were needed as finishing touches (the Trade, Cormier, Stanton, Conine, etc.). WK has really exhibited first rate scouting and talent recognition skills IMO (the Trade being an exception) followed by a repeated tendency to sabotage his plan with the disastrous choices to plug his remaining holes.

A presidient to guide WK, to say no when the thought of signing a Mike Stanton type for two years comes around again, could make this organization stronger. WK needs some one to show him how to take the assemblage of talent he's acquired and turn it into a team IMO. Jocketty could be that guy. If Jocketty comes in as Presisdent with those roles very defined and WK keeps his role while Jocketty adds his guidance and some of his existing relationships to what WK has, it could be a positive.

WK and Jocketty are pretty similar IMO. (One thing that both seem to have in common is a frequent trading relationship with Billy Beane.) I agree with Lollipopcurve that a complete organizational rebuild would be the wrong move right now. I don't see Jocketty brought in as President signaling that, simply enhancing what is already here. If Jocketty's existing relationships could lead to a Duncan coming on board and his stature in baseball help the franchise be taken more seriously by the free agent community it would only be a positive. Helping WK make the transition from super scout to full fledged GM would help as well IMO. Of course, any hint of a power struggle could make it all fall apart. I also acknowledge that Jocketty may be ready to kick back and call it a career. It should be interesting at least while we see what unfolds.

mth123
10-04-2007, 05:46 AM
Picked up Edmonds and Rolen for practically nothing.
JD Drew for Wainwright
Picking up Larry Walker last year for the stretch run.

There are more, but that's all I can think of right now.
Basically, when his team is close, he usually adds exactly what the team needs.

Good observation. This is exactly the skill that WK is missing IMO. My post above suggests hiring Jocketty as president to teach him that skill would be a good move. For all of WK's talent finds, I don't think any team will be a winner until it has a GM with this skill.

camisadelgolf
10-04-2007, 05:52 AM
That's my point viz. overstating the DanO era. It was short, mercifully so.

The problem is that now the DanO era is major armor for Krivsky against the criticisms he rightly deserves.

How much armor has DanO provided for Krivsky? Yeah, DanO acquired Homer Bailey, Jay Bruce, and Johnny Cueto. I wouldn't say he did much else for Krivsky, though. If not for those three big prospects, the Reds would have only two or three more 'prospects' in the system from the DanO era. Krivsky's given himself plenty of armor on his own, but if you look at the minor league and major league teams, it's not DanO who deserves the credit. Just take a look at what Krivsky's had to work with, and somehow, he managed to turn it into one of the best systems in baseball.

Elizardo Ramirez - hasn't really done much to help the team
B.J. Szymanski - one of the biggest busts of the 2004 draft
Craig Tatum - the Reds would be lucky if he were a backup catcher
Rafael Gonzalez - has been bad so far
Paul Janish - the Reds hope he might be a utility infielder some day
Phil Valiquette - has mostly been terrible
Cody Strait - probably isn't even in the Reds' top-100 prospects
Drew Anderson - he has a chance to get a cup of coffee in MLB (once he understands the concept of plate discipline)
Travis Wood - he's actually a good prospect; unfortunately, he isn't on the field often enough
Sam LeCure - he looks like a AAAA starter of the future
James Avery - it seems like he just doesn't have what it takes to succeed
Michael Jones - he might not advance above rookie ball
Bo Lanier - he was horrible this year
Carlos Fisher - he is a project that has paid off so far, but he still has a long way to go
Adam Rosales - he plays first base, and his bat's probably not good enough for it
Logan Ondrusek - his numbers are simply underwhelming
Michael Griffin - his ceiling is as a utlity player, and he probably won't be able to do so
Michael DeJesus - he can get on base but can't hit a ball out of the infield
Eric Eymann - his career should end shortly
Robbie Nickols - he just sucks
Jacob Long - has four hits in A-ball
Angel Cabrera - still in rookie ball
Justin Tordi - was horrible this year

PuffyPig
10-04-2007, 07:56 AM
...while all the key members of the offense and defense (Ross, Votto, Phillips, Encarnacion, Gonzalez, Hamilton, Bruce) will still be around on cheap or reasonable contracts.


Call me sentimental, but I've always considered Griffey and Dunn as key members of the offense. Unless about 200 RBI's isn't that important anymore.

Falls City Beer
10-04-2007, 08:02 AM
Call me sentimental, but I've always considered Griffey and Dunn as key members of the offense. Unless about 200 RBI's isn't that important anymore.

And counting Ross and Gonzalez as key members of anything is pretty ill-advised. And though I like what I've seen of Votto, I'd hardly call him a sure thing.

GAC
10-04-2007, 08:07 AM
I don't want Jocketty or Larussa. Their both at the tail end of their careers.

I soundly agree and doubt either ends up in Cincy. Just wishful thinking by some IMO. If LaRussa goes too, then why are they being forced out of St. Louis? And I haven't been impressed with the Card's farm system these last few years.

Team Clark
10-04-2007, 09:04 AM
When you have a system, a program, and superior teaching....along with top notch scouting and a commitment to winning (a huge checkbook doesn't hurt either)...a lot of GM's can get it done.

Take away Duncan alone....and it's pretty certain the Morris', Kiles, Weavers, Suppans are dreck. It doesn't take a genius to acquire overpaid players that other teams dump. It does take genius to turn them into quality. So, who is the genius? Duncan, that's who. I watched it in Oakland for years and years.

No question Duncan is one of the best if not the best pitching coach ever. Mazzone's stock has dropped quite a bit the last two years. Duncan doesn't sign players. This is a collective process.

westofyou
10-04-2007, 10:27 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7295420

The Cubs are on a roll. Not only are they back in the postseason, but their two principal rivals in the NL Central the Astros and Cardinals are a dysfunctional mess.

The Astros hired Ed Wade as their new general manager in large part because of his willingness to accept the world according to Drayton McLane, the team's meddling, quirky owner.

The Cardinals did something even more bizarre Wednesday, parting with one of the game's most successful GMs, Walt Jocketty, in large part because owner Bill DeWitt is enthralled with a younger executive, Jeff Luhnow.

Also...

Many in the industry expect the move also to lead to the departure of manager Tony La Russa, who is unsigned for next season.

Only a year ago, Jocketty and La Russa helped produce a World Series champion, the crowning achievement of their tenures for St. Louis.

DeWitt evidently is willing to sacrifice both for Luhnow, a former entrepreneur whose first year in baseball was drum roll, please 2003.

It would serve DeWitt right if both Jocketty and La Russa landed in Cincinnati and wound up torturing the Cardinals for the next decade, but Jocketty might prefer time off and La Russa might prefer a more competitive club.

"There was clearly tension in the front office, tension that was reported locally and nationally," DeWitt said at a news conference Wednesday. "While I've said on several occasions (there is) tension in every organization, I do think it got to be counterproductive."

OK, but who created the tension?

DeWitt.

His promotion of Luhnow to vice-president of amateur scouting and player development last September not only gave an inexperienced executive control of two major departments but also led to a breakdown of the Cardinals' chain of command.

Luhnow, a strong proponent of statistical analysis, clearly has the ear of DeWitt. Decisions were made in baseball operations without Jocketty's knowledge an outrageous development, given Jocketty's track record and standing in the industry.

The Cardinals named assistant GM John Mozeliak the interim replacement for Jocketty. They will consider Mozeliak, but not Luhnow, for the permanent position. Doesn't matter. It's clear that the next GM, like Wade in Houston, will be forced to accept Luhnow's influence on DeWitt.

Good news for the Cubs. Good news for the rest of the NL Central.

Bad news for the Cardinals.

Heath
10-04-2007, 10:34 AM
Something must be in the DeWitt baseball blood. Wonder if he thinks Jocketty is an "old GM".

Heath
10-04-2007, 10:35 AM
I soundly agree and doubt either ends up in Cincy. Just wishful thinking by some IMO. If LaRussa goes too, then why are they being forced out of St. Louis? And I haven't been impressed with the Card's farm system these last few years.


IIRC, Jocketty hasn't been 'in charge' of the farm system for a few years.

15fan
10-04-2007, 10:50 AM
I want no part of Tony LaRussa.

Anyone remember the all-star game a few months ago?

Home field advantage for the WS on the line, bases loaded & 2 outs in the 9th in a 1 run game. Aaron Rowand was scheduled to hit, and Albert Pujols was on the bench.

LaRussa sent Rowand to the plate to face FRod.

Game, set, match and home field to the American League.

Obviously the lesson taught by Tommy Lasorda in Game 1 of the 1988 WS didn't stick with LaRussa.

And the way that his team absolutely rolled over against the Reds in the 1990 World Series obviously hasn't stuck with a lot of Reds fans, either.

M2
10-04-2007, 11:18 AM
And the way that his team absolutely rolled over against the Reds in the 1990 World Series obviously hasn't stuck with a lot of Reds fans, either.

I wouldn't say it was a rollover so much as a thrashing. What no one took into account was how good the NL was in 1990 and how poor the AL was. The A's looked like a titan, but they spent most of the season beating up on weak sisters while the Reds went through six months of war to reach the Series.

Plus, I'm not going to pick overly much on a guy for losing a World Series.

VR
10-04-2007, 11:48 AM
Personally, I want Jocketty to have nothing to do with the team. He has 15 years of mistakes to choose from, but I'll limit myself to the most recent ones.

1. Scott Rolen is making $36M over the next three years with a no-trade clause.

2. Jim Edmonds is making $8M next year with a no-trade clause.

3. Chris Carpenter, who pitched only one game this year, has a career ERA over 4.00, has had major arm surgery in the past, had another major arm surgery this year, and is still owed over $50M.

4. He traded Dan Haren (the Athletics' current ace), Kiko Calero (solid reliever with a career ERA of 3.55 and averages more than a strikeout per inning), and Daric Barton (who is 22 years old and one of the Athletics' elite prospects who was extremely impressive in MLB this year) for Mark Mulder, who has a 7.68 ERA over the past two years and has been paid several million dollars to do so (oh, and he's still owed several million dollars, as well).

5. He traded for Mike Maroth, who made Phil Dumatrait look good.

6. He gave Adam Kennedy a three year, $10M contract. Kennedy after the first year of his contract, is hitting .219 with a .572 OPS.

7. The team he has put together often plays So Taguchi. As a starter.

8. Juan Encarnacion is owed $11.5M over the next two years, and he hasn't hit 20 homeruns or stolen 20 bases since 2002. His OBP always stinks, too.

Has Wayne Krivsky been perfect? Absolutely not. Mike Stanton, Rheal Cormier, Juan Castro, Gary Majewski, and Kirk Saarloos all say 'hi'. But how many mistakes has he made as big as Jocketty's over the past couple years?

In 2005, the Cardinals won 27 more games than the Reds. If you expected Krivsky to make the Reds better than the Cardinals in a span of two years, I think you're crazy. Still, over the past two years, Krivsky came close because the Cardinals have won a total of nine more games than the Reds, and the Cardinals have been doing it with almost 50% more payroll.

.

Great post. If LaRussa and Duncan leave that mess....it's gonna get really, really ugly.

Matt700wlw
10-04-2007, 11:54 AM
The only way the perception of this organization changes is if Bob Castellini changes it.

Whether it's this year or next (a year off, with pay, for Jocketty would not surprise me)...a move like this would be a huge step in changing that perception. A move like this, would lead to other moves, and judging by the track record, winning moves....

The Cincinnati Reds looks like a different animal then.

Falls City Beer
10-04-2007, 11:54 AM
Great post. If LaRussa and Duncan leave that mess....it's gonna get really, really ugly.

So results (two pennants and a World Championship) mean nothing?

pedro
10-04-2007, 12:11 PM
So results (two pennants and a World Championship) mean nothing?

Results are great, but they have to be tempered by the fact that the cardinals had a higher payroll 4 years ago than the Reds will have this year and that the Cardinals have a good bit of luck (drafting Albert Pujols comes to mind)

I think Jocketty has been a pretty good GM but I'm not so convinced that he hasn't been more lucky than skillful.

Plus, I want someone at an earlier stage in their career path. Period.

M2
10-04-2007, 12:17 PM
It should be remembered that Jocketty took over a team with it's best player, Gregg Jefferies, headed out the door via free agency. Ozzie Smith was in his twillight. The rotation consisted of struggling old guys - Bob Tewksbury and Rick Sutcliffe - and not very good younger guys - Allen Watson, Vicente Palacios and Omar Olivares.

The closers were Mike Perez and Rene Arocha.

Two years later, Brian Jordan, Ron Gant and Gary Gaetti had been brought in. Andy Benes and Todd Stottlemyre had been acquired to lead the rotation. Dennis Eckersley was closing and the rest of the bullpen had gone from a disaster to one of the better units in the NL.

Most importantly, the club had gone from a doormat to one win away from a World Series berth. Obviously the team sputtered the next three years, but Jocketty did take a franchise with supposedly little to like outside Ray Lankford, Todd Ziele and perhaps a returning Donovan Osbourne and remake it in short order. He did an instant tear down and reassembly of his 2003 club. My guess is, had he stayed in St. Louis, he'd have done something similar again.

RichRed
10-04-2007, 12:19 PM
Didn't the A's have one of the highest payrolls in the game when LaRussa was there? I could be wrong but it seems he's often just been in the right place at the right time. And just imagine the future RedsZone reactions to that man's incessant lineup tinkering.

I'm honestly not sure how to feel about the possibility of Jocketty going to the Reds. I don't care for LaRussa but I do know for a fact that I'd take Dave Duncan in a heartbeat.

IslandRed
10-04-2007, 12:37 PM
Personally, I want Jocketty to have nothing to do with the team. He has 15 years of mistakes to choose from, but I'll limit myself to the most recent ones.

(snip)


I agree with most of what you posted, but the exception of the Haren-Mulder deal -- which I thought was dumb at the time and have never had cause to reconsider -- most of it falls under the category of "trying to keep the window open." It's similar to the way an NFL team operates at times -- in the attempt to win a Super Bowl before the team's core falls apart, they overpay for players they think they need today fully knowing it will leave them in salary cap hell for a couple of years when it all falls apart. It's a conscious risk they take.

15fan
10-04-2007, 12:55 PM
Plus, I'm not going to pick overly much on a guy for losing a World Series.

I see your point.

But on paper, LaRussa had vastly superior talent than his opponents in 1988, 1989, and 1990. His team went 4-0 against the 89 Giants, and 1-8 against the 88 Dodgers and 90 Reds.

In 1988, the Dodgers finished dead last in the NL with 99 HRs. They were 9th (of 12) with a .304 OBP and 8th with a .352 SLG. Freshmen in the MIT chess club score more than the 88 Dodgers did. Yet they took the A's in 5.

Conversely, the A's had quite possibly the premier offensive threat of the late 80s/early 90s in Jose Canseco, the greatest leadoff hitter ever in Rickey Henderson, a young Mark McGwire, as well as veteran bats like Carney Lansford, Dave Henderson and Dave Parker. On the pitching staff, Dave Stewart and Bob Welch were a 1-2 that could hang with anyone, and Eckersley was at his pinnacle shutting down teams in the 9th.

Add in the way that the 2004 Cardinals got steamrolled by the Red Sox, and that's a combined 1-12 in the 88, 90 and 04 World Series. Losing a close WS is one thing. But repeatedly getting undressed on the game's biggest stage when the talent is there to put up a good fight becomes problematic IMO.

I actually think LaRussa is a lot like Bobby Cox. When they have the talent advantage & can just roll out the balls & say "go get 'em, fellas," they look like great coaches.

(And I think we'll all agree that the Reds aren't going to be in that boat any time soon...)

But when the lights shine brighter at the end of the season, their teams fold...quickly.

westofyou
10-04-2007, 12:59 PM
I actually think LaRussa is a lot like Bobby Cox.

Me too... a great manager that gets as much bad press as good press.

I'll look at season records over post season any day of the week.

And both the aforementioned have their teams in the hunt more often then not, no matter how the team is built.

Team Clark
10-04-2007, 01:02 PM
I see your point.

But on paper, LaRussa had vastly superior talent than his opponents in 1988, 1989, and 1990. His team went 4-0 against the 89 Giants, and 1-8 against the 88 Dodgers and 90 Reds.

In 1988, the Dodgers finished dead last in the NL with 99 HRs. They were 9th (of 12) with a .304 OBP and 8th with a .352 SLG. Freshmen in the MIT chess club score more than the 88 Dodgers did. Yet they took the A's in 5.

Conversely, the A's had quite possibly the premier offensive threat of the late 80s/early 90s in Jose Canseco, the greatest leadoff hitter ever in Rickey Henderson, a young Mark McGwire, as well as veteran bats like Carney Lansford, Dave Henderson and Dave Parker. On the pitching staff, Dave Stewart and Bob Welch were a 1-2 that could hang with anyone, and Eckersley was at his pinnacle shutting down teams in the 9th.

Add in the way that the 2004 Cardinals got steamrolled by the Red Sox, and that's a combined 1-12 in the 88, 90 and 04 World Series. Losing a close WS is one thing. But repeatedly getting undressed on the game's biggest stage when the talent is there to put up a good fight becomes problematic IMO.

I actually think LaRussa is a lot like Bobby Cox. When they have the talent advantage & can just roll out the balls & say "go get 'em, fellas," they look like great coaches.

(And I think we'll all agree that the Reds aren't going to be in that boat any time soon...)

But when the lights shine brighter at the end of the season, their teams fold...quickly.

I can go along with some of what you say other than the fact that LaRussa can not control how his players react to a World Series stage. My question would be why no credit for WINNING a WS with a (IMO) less talented team in '06?

The dominant A's teams he managed were managed very well by LaRussa. His platoons were outstanding and he most certainly got the most out of his players. He reinvented bullpen use in that era and both Stewart and Welch were practically scrap heap re-treads until they got into Duncan's hands. So, what did LaRussa do that was so wrong?

VR
10-04-2007, 01:05 PM
So results (two pennants and a World Championship) mean nothing?


Not sure where you're going with that...unless you are saying Jerry Krause was a wunderkind?

westofyou
10-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Something must be in the DeWitt baseball blood. Wonder if he thinks Jocketty is an "old GM".


http://www.baseballminutia.com/images/de.gif

M2
10-04-2007, 01:41 PM
Didn't the A's have one of the highest payrolls in the game when LaRussa was there? I could be wrong but it seems he's often just been in the right place at the right time.

I'd assume that if Jocketty and LaRussa were coming, they'd only do so if Castellini said he'd be willing to increase spending into the $80Ms. One of the upsides of bringing in that group is that the Reds would have to stop acting like a small market sad sack in order to woo them.

PuffyPig
10-04-2007, 01:52 PM
I'd assume that if Jocketty and LaRussa were coming, they'd only do so if Castellini said he'd be willing to increase spending into the $80Ms. One of the upsides of bringing in that group is that the Reds would have to stop acting like a small market sad sack in order to woo them.

:thumbup:

Good post.

RichRed
10-04-2007, 01:58 PM
I'd assume that if Jocketty and LaRussa were coming, they'd only do so if Castellini said he'd be willing to increase spending into the $80Ms. One of the upsides of bringing in that group is that the Reds would have to stop acting like a small market sad sack in order to woo them.

Excellent point. It would be a true test of whether or not the "small market sad sack" trait is hard-wired into the Reds' DNA or just a nasty habit.

Falls City Beer
10-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Not sure where you're going with that...unless you are saying Jerry Krause was a wunderkind?

Whoever wins two pennants and a World Championship is a very good GM. There is just too much that could go wrong for that to be "luck" and not skill.

15fan
10-04-2007, 02:47 PM
My question would be why no credit for WINNING a WS with a (IMO) less talented team in '06?

That's puzzled me, too. Prior to the 2006 Series, let's face it - if you had to put money on how a LaRussa team would perform in the post-season, the smart money said to bet against him. Big time.

His team limped into the post-season, winning a weak division with an 83-78 record. And then they beat a Tigers team that was murdering the ball all year?

All I've got is that David Eckstein and Yadier Molina combined to go Billy Hatcher on the Tigers pitching staff to the tune of 15 for 39. Add in the fact that Sean Casey went 9 for 17 with 4 XBH and clearly something strange was going on in 2006...

M2
10-04-2007, 02:54 PM
But on paper, LaRussa had vastly superior talent than his opponents in 1988, 1989, and 1990. His team went 4-0 against the 89 Giants, and 1-8 against the 88 Dodgers and 90 Reds.

That was back before interleague play, though. The '69-'71 Orioles had a dynasty thwarted by supposedly inferior Mets and Pirates teams. That sort of thing can happen when you've got one good, competitive league and another where the best team can roll over the competition without much trouble.

Dave Stewart and Mike Moore destroyed the Giants in '89. Perhaps things would have been different if Bob Welch and Storm Davis had been forced to start, but the earthquake prevented that from happening. Yet the '88 Dodgers had to prevail over a tough division (the Reds, Padres and Giants were all quality clubs) and beat probably the best team in baseball (the Mets) in order to reach the Series. The 1990 NL was stacked. Meanwhile the AL was dogmeat that season, particularly the AL East, which had become a collection of baseball retirement homes. The next season every club in the AL West, which is where the emerging talent was at the time, went .500 or better.

Circumstance made the A's look better than they were. In reality they were an older team that ran into a Reds squad that had a lot more on the ball than most folks realized (none moreso than Glenn Braggs, who married the one on the right in En Vogue, that guy had game).

For the record, LaRussa's teams are 59-48 (.551) in the playoffs, which isn't too shabby.

Puffy
10-04-2007, 03:06 PM
Circumstance made the A's look better than they were. In reality they were an older team that ran into a Reds squad that had a lot more on the ball than most folks realized (none moreso than Glenn Braggs, who married the one on the right in En Vogue, that guy had game).



Cindy Herron - the one on the left.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/825505/bab0316.jpg

Team Clark
10-04-2007, 03:20 PM
That's puzzled me, too. Prior to the 2006 Series, let's face it - if you had to put money on how a LaRussa team would perform in the post-season, the smart money said to bet against him. Big time.

His team limped into the post-season, winning a weak division with an 83-78 record. And then they beat a Tigers team that was murdering the ball all year?

All I've got is that David Eckstein and Yadier Molina combined to go Billy Hatcher on the Tigers pitching staff to the tune of 15 for 39. Add in the fact that Sean Casey went 9 for 17 with 4 XBH and clearly something strange was going on in 2006...

I'm with ya on that one! :thumbup: Loved the Billy Hatcher reference too... Good memories.

Falls City Beer
10-04-2007, 03:34 PM
It should be remembered that Jocketty took over a team with it's best player, Gregg Jefferies, headed out the door via free agency. Ozzie Smith was in his twillight. The rotation consisted of struggling old guys - Bob Tewksbury and Rick Sutcliffe - and not very good younger guys - Allen Watson, Vicente Palacios and Omar Olivares.

The closers were Mike Perez and Rene Arocha.

Two years later, Brian Jordan, Ron Gant and Gary Gaetti had been brought in. Andy Benes and Todd Stottlemyre had been acquired to lead the rotation. Dennis Eckersley was closing and the rest of the bullpen had gone from a disaster to one of the better units in the NL.

Most importantly, the club had gone from a doormat to one win away from a World Series berth. Obviously the team sputtered the next three years, but Jocketty did take a franchise with supposedly little to like outside Ray Lankford, Todd Ziele and perhaps a returning Donovan Osbourne and remake it in short order. He did an instant tear down and reassembly of his 2003 club. My guess is, had he stayed in St. Louis, he'd have done something similar again.


Great post. The rewiring of history that goes on on this board is downright jaw-dropping at times. It's no wonder that people make the same mistakes over and over with the vision of history that some cling to.

The guy was and likely still is a Titan. He would be eulogized as such by folks on this board had he done for this franchise what he did for the Cardinals.

Chip R
10-04-2007, 03:41 PM
Tough crowd around here. The Reds haven't had a .500 season since 2000 and haven't been to the playoffs since 1995 and people are poo-poohing a manager and a GM that have been to multiple World Series.

pedro
10-04-2007, 03:41 PM
Great post. The rewiring of history that goes on on this board is downright jaw-dropping at times. It's no wonder that people make the same mistakes over and over with the vision of history that some cling to.

The guy was and likely still is a Titan. He would be eulogized as such by folks on this board had he done for this franchise what he did for the Cardinals.

And the amount of card love espoused by you would make a 13year old girl blush. Jocketty is a good GM, there is no doubt about that, but you act like he's Bobby Sherman or something.

I can only wonder what you would have said had Wayne Krivsky signed Adam Kennedy to a 3 year contract this past offseason.

Patrick Bateman
10-04-2007, 03:43 PM
The guy was and likely still is a Titan. He would be eulogized as such by folks on this board had he done for this franchise what he did for the Cardinals.

He definitely was a top line GM, but I question if still has it. IMO, this season was his worst, and even though they won the WS last season, I think the decline was beginning to show.

I'm not sure if it's a trend that will continue, but I don't think he's the lock he once was.

pedro
10-04-2007, 03:45 PM
Tough crowd around here. The Reds haven't had a .500 season since 2000 and haven't been to the playoffs since 1995 and people are poo-poohing a manager and a GM that have been to multiple World Series.

I don't think many are questioning their accomplishments. I just think many wonder whether they're both on the downside of their career arcs. Funny thing is, fact checking cuz that I am, I just realized that Jocketty is 7 years younger than Larussa. So being that he's not yet 60, maybe he does have some juice left. Larussa though, I'm just not a fan.

Chip R
10-04-2007, 03:48 PM
I don't think many are questioning their accomplishments. I just think many wonder whether they're both on the downside of their career arcs. Funny thing is, fact checking cuz that I am, I just realized that Jocketty is 7 years younger than Larussa. So being that he's not yet 60, maybe he does have some juice left. Larussa though, I'm just not a fan.


People thought Jim Leyland was burnt out and washed up and look what happened with the Tigers last year. Jack Mckeon has done a pretty good job in his past couple of gigs.

Puffy
10-04-2007, 03:50 PM
Great post. The rewiring of history that goes on on this board is downright jaw-dropping at times. It's no wonder that people make the same mistakes over and over with the vision of history that some cling to.

The guy was and likely still is a Titan. He would be eulogized as such by folks on this board had he done for this franchise what he did for the Cardinals.

Yup, I find it funny people talking about the "mess" he is leaving St Louis in.

Hi, I'm Puffy and if you deliver 9 winning seasons in 13 years, with 6 division titles and a World Series victory, I don't care about the two year rebuilding it will take when you leave. Thank you and have a great day.

pedro
10-04-2007, 03:51 PM
People thought Jim Leyland was burnt out and washed up and look what happened with the Tigers last year. Jack Mckeon has done a pretty good job in his past couple of gigs.

and look what happened when he was in Colorado.

pedro
10-04-2007, 03:52 PM
. Jack Mckeon has done a pretty good job in his past couple of gigs.

For about 18 months at each stop.

Puffy
10-04-2007, 03:52 PM
He definitely was a top line GM, but I question if still has it. IMO, this season was his worst, and even though they won the WS last season, I think the decline was beginning to show.

I'm not sure if it's a trend that will continue, but I don't think he's the lock he once was.

See, this is sound logic. And it very well might be true, but we will have no way of knowing until/unless he ends up somewhere.

But this "Jocketty doesn't impress me" or a list of his "mistakes" over the last 15 years, or the "look at the mess he is leaving" are not, IMO.

Chip R
10-04-2007, 03:56 PM
For about 18 months at each stop.

Nothing is forever. I don't care how long they stay. I'm just sick of sub-.500 seasons. Are LaRussa and/or Jocketty the answer(s)? I don't know but I'm willing to roll the dice. Can't do a helluva lot worse than the Reds are doing now.

pedro
10-04-2007, 04:02 PM
Nothing is forever. I don't care how long they stay. I'm just sick of sub-.500 seasons. Are LaRussa and/or Jocketty the answer(s)? I don't know but I'm willing to roll the dice. Can't do a helluva lot worse than the Reds are doing now.

IMO that's some faulty logic chip. Especially as it regards to GM's. No GM is going to make a positive long term effect unless they are around for at least 2-3 years.

Patrick Bateman
10-04-2007, 04:29 PM
But this "Jocketty doesn't impress me" or a list of his "mistakes" over the last 15 years, or the "look at the mess he is leaving" are not, IMO.

Agreed, he's had so much success that it's very easy to forget his mistakes, because obviously, they were outweighed by his positives.

I'd be for giving Jocketty a shot. I don't mind Krivsky and I'd be willing to give him at least another year if the Reds can't get a guy like Jocketty, but I think Jocketty would have to be considered a better GM at this point even if his last few years have been below his usual standards. It would be a worthwhile risk IMO.

redsmetz
10-04-2007, 04:40 PM
In spite of the disdain some have for Krivsky on this board, I don't think he's done anything that would warrant being fired after only two years on the job. It would be ludicrous and be a step backwards for this organization. I'm anxious to see what he does this off season.

M2
10-04-2007, 05:18 PM
In spite of the disdain some have for Krivsky on this board, I don't think he's done anything that would warrant being fired after only two years on the job. It would be ludicrous and be a step backwards for this organization. I'm anxious to see what he does this off season.

This really doesn't have anything to do with Krivsky. If Castellini wants Jocketty and Jocketty wants the gig then Krivsky's either getting dumped or working for Jocketty (dependent on what role Jocketty would want to play). Supposedly Jocketty's the guy Castellini wants and I doubt Krivsky's done enough to entrench himself if that's the case.

As for stepping backwards, I don't think bringing in a managment team that's gone 1,055-887 over the past 13 seasons would be construed as anything but a forward step. They've got a history of winning and they'd surely have unprecedented (for the Reds) financial resources to play with.

M2
10-04-2007, 05:55 PM
nevermind

Roy Tucker
10-04-2007, 06:06 PM
Interesting discussion...

Which ever side you're on, it's a pretty darn big decision for Castellini. And quite the contrast between the status quo of WK and the brave new world of Jocketty.

And it will fundamentally shape the future of the Reds for several years.

Unassisted
10-04-2007, 06:22 PM
On XM today, I heard an interview with some analyst who follows the Cards. He said that Jocketty's early success was dependent on picking up players like Edmonds and McGwire from their former teams when they were about to get too expensive and signing them to the deals their former clubs couldn't afford. The analyst contends that the economics of baseball have changed and players like them are now more likely to stay on with those lower-payroll clubs. This guy's take was that Jocketty's stock had dropped in recent years when he was unable to reel in those quality players from fire sales.

RFS62
10-04-2007, 06:23 PM
Interesting discussion...

Which ever side you're on, it's a pretty darn big decision for Castellini. And quite the contrast between the status quo of WK and the brave new world of Jocketty.

And it will fundamentally shape the future of the Reds for several years.



Yep. You're married to a nice, average looking woman. She's pretty sensible, rarely burns the meatloaf, finds a lot of bargains at yard sales.

Keeps the checkbook balanced, you don't have to worry about infidelity.

Then, along comes a flashy looking babe in a red sports car. Shops at Saks, orders the lobster, used to the finer things in life, and has been places you've only dreamed of.

What to do.... what to do....

jojo
10-04-2007, 06:45 PM
Yep. You're married to a nice, average looking woman. She's pretty sensible, rarely burns the meatloaf, finds a lot of bargains at yard sales.

Keeps the checkbook balanced, you don't have to worry about infidelity.

Then, along comes a flashy looking babe in a red sports car. Shops at Saks, orders the lobster, used to the finer things in life, and has been places you've only dreamed of.

What to do.... what to do....

Become a mormon?

M2
10-04-2007, 06:50 PM
Yep. You're married to a nice, average looking woman. She's pretty sensible, rarely burns the meatloaf, finds a lot of bargains at yard sales.

Keeps the checkbook balanced, you don't have to worry about infidelity.

Then, along comes a flashy looking babe in a red sports car. Shops at Saks, orders the lobster, used to the finer things in life, and has been places you've only dreamed of.

What to do.... what to do....

That analogy's not really working for me because in this case you kind of got married on the rebound and the new, supposedly flashy woman has a history of being a model wife (also you live in the Roman Empire because people are getting married and divorced like it was going out of style).

I prefer this analogy: Your name is Arthur Carlson. It's 1978. You own a struggling family radio station and you've decided that rock 'n' roll may indeed be here to stay. Do you change your format and hire this Andy Travis turnaround specialist?

KronoRed
10-04-2007, 06:51 PM
Become a mormon?

Or in baseball terms, a yankee? ;)

pedro
10-04-2007, 06:53 PM
wrong thread.

REDREAD
10-04-2007, 09:31 PM
I want no part of Tony LaRussa.

Anyone remember the all-star game a few months ago?

.

I'm not going to criticize anyone over managing decsions made in the allstar game.. Sure, Bud says it "counts" now, but it's still a big joke.

I don't watch the AS game anymore, so I don't know the exact circumstances. Maybe he didn't pinch hit with Pujolous because if he did and Pujolous failed, he'd be taken to task for letting one of his guys hog the glory.

GAC
10-04-2007, 09:33 PM
IIRC, Jocketty hasn't been 'in charge' of the farm system for a few years.

I understand that; but why hasn't he been in charge? What is the reasoning behind that? It's not his strong suit or area of expertise? He felt more comfortable delegating those responsibilites and focusing on those areas that best suit his talents?

Is he suited for what is needed in Cincy? I understand that he went out, via free agency, and made some acquistions, such as Edmonds, Rolen, and a few others; but he has also made some very questionable (and bad) moves, and some of those contracts are now burdens to the Cards.

REDREAD
10-04-2007, 09:35 PM
Results are great, but they have to be tempered by the fact that the cardinals had a higher payroll 4 years ago than the Reds will have this year and that the Cardinals have a good bit of luck (drafting Albert Pujols comes to mind)

I think Jocketty has been a pretty good GM but I'm not so convinced that he hasn't been more lucky than skillful.

Plus, I want someone at an earlier stage in their career path. Period.

The Cardinals had a solid plan that gave them that high payroll.
When the McGwire money was rolling in, they reinvested it in players. When the Reds got record money coming in 2000 from Jr, they actually cut payroll the following year.

The Reds have had plenty of breaks in the same time period, but failed to capitalize on them in the Lindner era, because Lindner didn't care about winning.

The Reds got Jr, a new park, signed Dunn in the 2nd round and convinced him to play football (which no other team thought was possible). They got lucky with Arroyo last year. They got lucky with Harang as well.

The Reds have had plenty of breaks, but they failed to capitalize on them.

If Jocketty was runnning the Reds in 2006, you can bet we would've gotten much better help down the stretch run than Majewski, Lohse, and Cormier.

Team Clark
10-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Yep. You're married to a nice, average looking woman. She's pretty sensible, rarely burns the meatloaf, finds a lot of bargains at yard sales.

Keeps the checkbook balanced, you don't have to worry about infidelity.

Then, along comes a flashy looking babe in a red sports car. Shops at Saks, orders the lobster, used to the finer things in life, and has been places you've only dreamed of.

What to do.... what to do....

Take her for a Test Drive? :dunno:

BCubb2003
10-05-2007, 01:41 AM
But in the car with her is a slick guy who thinks he knows it all named Tony, and a quiet guy in the back named Dave who probably really does know it all.

Your life could get complicated in a hurry.

GAC
10-05-2007, 10:40 AM
Tough crowd around here. The Reds haven't had a .500 season since 2000 and haven't been to the playoffs since 1995 and people are poo-poohing a manager and a GM that have been to multiple World Series.

I didn't poo-pooh the guy or his resume/accomplishments. But the environment is different in Cincy then it is in St Louis.

I look at HOW he accomplished what he did with the Cards and wonder can he do the same here in Cincy?

Everyone on here pretty much has concurred that due to the economic and ever-changing "face" of MLB, a vast majority of ML teams don't have the resources to spend and spend, while consistently looking to the FA market to supply their needs.

You have to build the infrastructure.

How have the Cards (Jocketty) been able to win? Does the organization have a sound infrastructure in place to sustain it for a long period of time. And I'm mainly referring to the farm system. What I have read, the Cards have not had a sound farm system for awhile.

Where are all these prospects, that are currently with this team (and contributing), that they developed and came up through their system?

It seems Jocketty, for the most part, has been good at going outside the system and acquiring talent via free agency, and giving out large, longterm contracts, while not emphasizing scouting and developing it. In fact, he has not even been involved/active with the Card's farm from what I have been told. IMHO, that's not a good sign.

I'm not saying that hasn't been a success in St Louis; but only will that type of approach work in Cincy and be welcomed by this owner?

GAC
10-05-2007, 10:52 AM
And If Jocketty doesn't turn it around in his second year, like some are demanding of Krivsky, are we then gonna see threads on here like we are now?.....

What's Your Personal Jocketty Deadline?


;)

Falls City Beer
10-05-2007, 10:57 AM
And If Jocketty doesn't turn it around in his second year, like some are demanding of Krivsky, are we then gonna see threads on here like we are now?.....

What's Your Personal Jocketty Deadline?


;)

So why isn't DanO still here--if such a massive chunk of time is required to turn things around?

There's a simple litmus: help the team a lot more than you hurt it and help it more than you tread water.

Do that and you're gold with me. I can wait.

westofyou
10-05-2007, 11:00 AM
So why isn't DanO still here--if such a massive chunk of time is required to turn things around?

Dan had 3 off seasons to screw the pooch, some folks have been chasing Wayne through the street since last July.

Yeah I know... Just Win Baby.

GAC
10-05-2007, 11:14 AM
I prefer this analogy: Your name is Arthur Carlson. It's 1978. You own a struggling family radio station and you've decided that rock 'n' roll may indeed be here to stay. Do you change your format and hire this Andy Travis turnaround specialist?

You hit on your secretary

http://www.topsynergy.com/images/famous/Loni_Anderson_Main.jpg

and swear turkeys could fly? :lol:

Roy Tucker
10-05-2007, 11:20 AM
I prefer this analogy: Your name is Arthur Carlson. It's 1978. You own a struggling family radio station and you've decided that rock 'n' roll may indeed be here to stay. Do you change your format and hire this Andy Travis turnaround specialist?

Break out the 101 Strings album, put on a white belt and plaid pants, break out the dogs in a blanket appetizers, and mix up a Manhattan.

Chip R
10-05-2007, 11:45 AM
I didn't poo-pooh the guy or his resume/accomplishments. But the environment is different in Cincy then it is in St Louis.

I look at HOW he accomplished what he did with the Cards and wonder can he do the same here in Cincy?

Everyone on here pretty much has concurred that due to the economic and ever-changing "face" of MLB, a vast majority of ML teams don't have the resources to spend and spend, while consistently looking to the FA market to supply their needs.

You have to build the infrastructure.

How have the Cards (Jocketty) been able to win? Does the organization have a sound infrastructure in place to sustain it for a long period of time. And I'm mainly referring to the farm system. What I have read, the Cards have not had a sound farm system for awhile.

Where are all these prospects, that are currently with this team (and contributing), that they developed and came up through their system?

It seems Jocketty, for the most part, has been good at going outside the system and acquiring talent via free agency, and giving out large, longterm contracts, while not emphasizing scouting and developing it. In fact, he has not even been involved/active with the Card's farm from what I have been told. IMHO, that's not a good sign.

I'm not saying that hasn't been a success in St Louis; but only will that type of approach work in Cincy and be welcomed by this owner?


How is it different? The only differences I see is that for some reason they draw many more fans that we do. The markets are similar. In fact we have more large cities (Columbus, Lexington, Louisville, Indianapolis) around us than they do.

You bring up their farm system and you believe it's lousy because of what you've heard from others or because they don't have a lot of homegrown talent on their major league roster. Just because you don't have the talent on your roster doesn't necessarily make your farm system lousy. Evidently the Cards farm system was good enough to trade for McGwire, Rolen, and Edmonds. They also had enough talent to trade for a Mark Mulder and while he hasn't done well with them, at the time he was a highly regarded pitcher and they had to have something in their system to trade for him. They also developed Ankiel and his pitching career was unfortunately cut short because he lost the ability to throw strikes. But he has reinvented himself as a hitter. So, in essence, the Cardinals developed him twice. Once as a pitcher and once as an OFer. So they must be doing something right.

There's no guarantee anyone can come in here and turn things around. Wayne may be the man to do it as far as I know. But fans here seem to want to downgrade accomplishments by people elsewhere. People say, "Well, Joe Torre and Brian Cashman did well with the Yankees but they had all that Yankee money to spend so they won't be able to be successful here." How do we know that? They may have more money than we do but they also have a different set of challenges.

I'm not saying Wayne's a bad GM. But 2 years ago Jim Leyland was looking for a job. The Reds decided to stick with Jerry Narron. We didn't know at the time that Narron was going to be a failure as a manager but there was someone out there with a track record and a ring and was acknowledged as one of the best managers in the game. DET picked him up and they went to the World Series. The Reds kept Narron and fired him this year. The point is, if there is someone out there with a proven track record who is available, you do your best to hire that person and smooth things out later. Bob's the owner of this team. If he wants to bring in Jocketty in whatever capacity, he can do it and worry about hurt feelings later.

I don't think Wayne's the type of person who feels he knows it all. Maybe he'd welcome Jocketty as some sort of consigliere. Someone who can be strong where Wayne is weak. And if Wayne doesn't like it, he can leave.

Matt700wlw
10-05-2007, 04:38 PM
Speculation continues...


Ripples from Cards' shakeup reach Cincinnati


By Gerry Fraley, Sporting News
Posted October 5, 2007


Cincinnati interim manager Pete Mackanin should break out his guide to European youth hostels.


Mackanin is about to go on a four-week vacation in Europe. Mackanin kiddingly said at the end of the season that he would stay in "five-star hotels" if the Reds removed "interim" from his title but would fall back on inexpensive hostels if returned to the lower-paid world of scouting.

His chances of getting the job on a full-time basis decreased on Wednesday. So did the job security of Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky.

St. Louis chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. dismissed general manager Walt Jocketty with one year remaining on his contract. The shock waves from this were felt in Cincinnati.

Reds owner Robert Castellini has deep admiration for Jocketty and manager Tony La Russa. Castellini watched them operate while a Cardinals minority owner.

Castellini recognizes he must do something to make his club relevant again. The Reds have had seven consecutive losing seasons and seemed doomed to more second-division finishes even in the lightweight National League Central.

What better way to jump-start the Reds than to bring in a proven pair of winners in Jocketty and La Russa, whose contract with the Cardinals has expired?

La Russa said late in the regular season that he and Jocketty are not a package deal. That said, the thought of continuing to work with a general manager whom he respects would have great appeal to La Russa. He wants to continue managing, but there are not that many good fits. Cincinnati could be an ideal landing spot for him and Jocketty.

RedsManRick
10-05-2007, 05:03 PM
I find it funny that with both Leyland and LaRussa, their winning seasons just so happen to correspond with significant payroll increases that led to significantly more talented teams. It happened at the stops for Leyland. Look at what happened to the Pirates when they got rid of Bonds and slashed payroll -- suddenly Leyland was a losing manager! When the Marlins sold off everybody, Leyland didn't know how to win anymore! Colorado... still forgot. When the Tigers hired him, bumped the payoll by $15M, and developed a bunch of cheap talent from their rebuild, voila, he remembered! When they spent money and gave him lots of talent, he won. When they didn't, he lost.

Same with story with LaRussa. See Oakland in 1993 (20&#37; payroll cut) or St. Louis prior to 2000 (2nd tier payroll).

Good managing is like clutch. The best ones do what they should in situations where they're poised to succeed. It's more of an ability to not screw things up.

As for Jocketty, he has yet to build anything more than a single 88-win division champ and a bunch of mediocre teams floating around .500 without having a top 10 payroll. I've gone on at length outlining the specific intelligent decisions he made starting in the 99/00 offseason, but it was all possible thanks to a checkbook which he didn't control. Bring in Jocketty and/or LaRussa if you want, but unless he gets about $25M to work with that Krivksy hasn't had made available to him, don't expect miracles.

Show me a GM and/or manager who has consistently done more than anticipated with what he had available and then I'll get excited.

GAC
10-05-2007, 06:13 PM
You bring up their farm system and you believe it's lousy because of what you've heard from others or because they don't have a lot of homegrown talent on their major league roster.

I never said it was lousy; but over these last many years you don't see much talent being brought up through the Card's farm system.


Just because you don't have the talent on your roster doesn't necessarily make your farm system lousy. Evidently the Cards farm system was good enough to trade for McGwire, Rolen, and Edmonds

Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. You have to look at the merits/circumstances behind each of those trades on an individual basis. And the strength (or weakness) of their farm system had nothing to do with them acquiring the above players you mentioned IMO.

The McGwire acquisition was an Oakland A's fire sale more then it was the Card's trading away solid farm talent to get him. The A's got in return T. J. Mathews and two minor league pitchers. And where did Jocketty work prior to coming to the Cards? ;)

Edmonds was unhappy at Anahiem and was basically demanding a trade, and they didn't give up farm system talent to get him (Bottonfield and Kennedy). The same with Rolen - acquired for Polanco, Timlin and Smith.


They also had enough talent to trade for a Mark Mulder and while he hasn't done well with them, at the time he was a highly regarded pitcher and they had to have something in their system to trade for him.

Beane got the best of that deal in Haren IMO. 3 years younger, has won 21 more games then Mulder in that timespan, and has cost the A's 3 Mil versus the 13 Mil Jocketty has invested in Mulder.

So this is what he does with his young talent when he has it? :lol:


They also developed Ankiel and his pitching career was unfortunately cut short because he lost the ability to throw strikes. But he has reinvented himself as a hitter. So, in essence, the Cardinals developed him twice. Once as a pitcher and once as an OFer. So they must be doing something right.

I'm glad for Ankiel. He's a young ballplayer that has redeemed himself. So I'll give you this one.

No where have I knocked what Jocketty has accomplished at St Louis. It should be recognized.

But people want to give Krivsky a short fuse, yet it took Jocketty how many years to get to his first World Series? Are the fans in Cincy going to be calling for his head after his first year as GM?


People say, "Well, Joe Torre and Brian Cashman did well with the Yankees but they had all that Yankee money to spend so they won't be able to be successful here.

And there is some truth to that statement.

From 1977 through 1995 (15 seasons), Torre, as a manager with the Mets, Atlanta, and Cards, had a .458 winning percentage.

I'm not the biggest fan of Torre as a manager. ;)


They may have more money than we do but they also have a different set of challenges.

And that's the point I am trying to make, concerning a "different set of challenges". I not so sure, looking at what the Reds have to accomplish, whether Jocketty is the guy to turns the Reds into the Cards-East. And looking at Cincy fans - are they going to demand his head after one year and not being able to work that "magic"?


But 2 years ago Jim Leyland was looking for a job. The Reds decided to stick with Jerry Narron. We didn't know at the time that Narron was going to be a failure as a manager but there was someone out there with a track record and a ring and was acknowledged as one of the best managers in the game. DET picked him up and they went to the World Series.

I love Leyland, and said then I wish the Reds had hired him. But I'm not so sure I'd give Detroit's sudden turn around solely to Leyland. Dombrowski came in 2002 and has doubled their payroll from around 50 mil to close to 100 mil. Money does talk.


The Reds kept Narron and fired him this year. The point is, if there is someone out there with a proven track record who is available, you do your best to hire that person and smooth things out later. Bob's the owner of this team. If he wants to bring in Jocketty in whatever capacity, he can do it and worry about hurt feelings later.

Who has said anything about hurt feelings? I wasn't concerned about Narron's feelings when he got fired.

In the case of WK, and looking at the shape this organization was in (top to bottom), I don't think he has been given adequate time to turn this organization around in just his second year.

He may very well not be that man. But we're calling for his head in his second season. Again - are we going to do the same with Jocketty?


I don't think Wayne's the type of person who feels he knows it all. Maybe he'd welcome Jocketty as some sort of consigliere. Someone who can be strong where Wayne is weak. And if Wayne doesn't like it, he can leave.

Would you feel the same if someone was brought in to "help" you with your job? Would it make you uncomfortable/uneasy about your job security/future? It's awfully hard to work under those conditions when your superiors aren't showing much confidence in you.

But if they can work together, then more power to them. I just want to avoid some sort of power play down the road where egos may clash. That doesn't do any organization any good.

Spitball
10-05-2007, 06:27 PM
I find it funny that with both Leyland and LaRussa, their winning seasons just so happen to correspond with significant payroll increases that led to significantly more talented teams...

Good point, but perhaps signing of a big name manager is just the impedous a team owner needs to significantly increase the payroll. It seems to happen. Lou Piniella certainly benefited from the loosened purse strings that brought Soriano, Lilly, and Marquis to Chicago.

Maybe the promise to spend is part of the managerial lure, or maybe just part of a grand push to compete.

GAC
10-05-2007, 06:40 PM
Good point, but perhaps signing of a big name manager is just the impedous a team owner needs to significantly increase the payroll.

Or maybe it's the other way around? ;)


It seems to happen. Lou Piniella certainly benefited from the loosened purse strings that brought Soriano, Lilly, and Marquis to Chicago.

Maybe the promise to spend is part of the managerial lure, or maybe just part of a grand push to compete.

I'm not a big Piniella fan. I'm not saying the guy is a terrible manager; but that he is overrated IMO. He's "fallen" into some managerial situations that have helped advance his career as a manager. He had some talented teams at Seattle. How many WS appearances?

He whines and complains that Seattle management is not spending enough when their payroll was just under 100 mil. So where does he go? To the other end of the spectrum to Tampa Bay. Now that wasn't an ideal situation for Lou; but whose fault was that?

But IMHO, that gig in Tampa Bay, as difficult as it was, showed me what I have always thought about Lou..... his forte is not in developing and building a team.

You build it (spend the bucks) and he will come. ;)

He's now in Chicago who just invested 300+ million in player contracts, and may not be done yet.

Casey Stengel once responded to a reporter's question on what he credits his success as a manager by saying that when you have the talent he has had.... "every day when I get to the stadium the easiest part of my job is making out that lineup."

RedsManRick
10-05-2007, 07:07 PM
Good point, but perhaps signing of a big name manager is just the impedous a team owner needs to significantly increase the payroll. It seems to happen. Lou Piniella certainly benefited from the loosened purse strings that brought Soriano, Lilly, and Marquis to Chicago.

Maybe the promise to spend is part of the managerial lure, or maybe just part of a grand push to compete.

I would argue that they often are co-variant to the decision by ownership to finally spend some cash to win. It's not that they need the name manager, but that they don't want to be accused of getting the nice car and putting a teenager behind the wheel.

What you see is that when a name manager is in place with mediocre talent, they put mediocre teams on the field. It's why LaRussa struggled at the end in Oakland and at the begining in St. Louis.

It's why the Yankees were successful with Torre and unsuccessful with Torre. No manager can make up for a lack of talent. Right now, the Reds lack the necessary talent. Until you have that in place, it's really hard to find fault with a manager who by most other accounts is doing a good job.

Jpup
10-07-2007, 09:40 PM
HA HA

redsmetz
10-08-2007, 12:55 PM
Lonnie Wheeler's column in today's Cincy Post was a hodgepodge of various topics since the Bengals had a bye week. Here's the bit about Jocketty:


Walt Jocketty, who resigned last week as general manager of the Cardinals and has some history with Reds owner Bob Castellini, would of course make a nice addition to Cincinnati's front office. But not at the expense of Wayne Krivsky, who, with his trusty shoestring, has tied up a tidy package of talent. How about this? Castellini hires Jocketty as a president of baseball operations - the competitive counterpart of John Allen, who handles the business end. Or how about this? Rather than merely calling over the Cardinals' GM, or even their field manager (Tony La Russa), Castellini copies their player payroll, which last year was about $21 million higher than the Reds'. It'd be interesting to give Krivsky a crack at that $21 million (especially with Jocketty around to share his expertise on veteran pitchers).

Jpup
10-08-2007, 02:45 PM
Lonnie Wheeler's column in today's Cincy Post was a hodgepodge of various topics since the Bengals had a bye week. Here's the bit about Jocketty:

The rest of the story is that Jocketty was fired from what I understand. I don't think he resigned, if so, it wasn't willingly.

RedsManRick
10-08-2007, 02:50 PM
The rest of the story is that Jocketty was fired from what I understand. I don't think he resigned, if so, it wasn't willingly.

I've read the term "forced out" in a few places -- ie. "Please resign so we don't have to fire you."

Matt700wlw
10-08-2007, 03:01 PM
The term used was "parted ways"

Whatever that means....it's been reported he hasn't been happy there for a couple of years.

Team Clark
10-08-2007, 03:53 PM
I'm not saying Wayne's a bad GM. But 2 years ago Jim Leyland was looking for a job. The Reds decided to stick with Jerry Narron. We didn't know at the time that Narron was going to be a failure as a manager but there was someone out there with a track record and a ring and was acknowledged as one of the best managers in the game. DET picked him up and they went to the World Series. The Reds kept Narron and fired him this year. The point is, if there is someone out there with a proven track record who is available, you do your best to hire that person and smooth things out later. Bob's the owner of this team. If he wants to bring in Jocketty in whatever capacity, he can do it and worry about hurt feelings later.

Philadelphia passed on Leyland too and they turned out OK. I see what you are saying though and I do agree. It is necessary to at LEAST interview the best candidates out there.

I am a huge Jim Leyland fan. He was around during my first spring training in Bradenton and you could feel his presence everywhere. I like people like that. Some people have "it" and he does. Granted he has been handed some good teams but the Tigers team he took to the WS was just a tick over mediocre in my book. He MADE those guys play Championship Baseball.

I like the fact that in ST of '06 he was asked about having a Team Captain he scoffed and said "I AM THE CAPTAIN". He doesn't leave much to the imagination. He's a pretty darn good communicator with the players. You know where you stand. EVERY DAY. :thumbup:

Having said all that I DO NOT think he would have been right for the Reds. Not in a million. Cincinnati players are far too coddled. How do you think Jr. Dunn and EE among others would have responded to Leyland? My money says...not too well. Not in the time frame that the Reds would need anyway. There would have been too much "unhappy camper time" kind of like the missing Lazy Boy chair episode. Golf clubs in the clubhouse during a losing streak?? Probably, but I have a feeling all the shafts would be broken. :D

The guys in the Reds clubhouse have it made. Especially the last 3 years. They make a Jim Tracy clubhouse look organized. Show up at 3:55 get ready, stretch and do whatever you want. Trent was the only one with enough guts to elude what was going on this year. Want to skip BP so you can talk on your cell? Sure no problem. Just make sure the coaches know so they can adjust the hitting schedule. Infield Practice??? Excuse me? WE, the players, make the rules around here!!

You want the Media relations guys to drop hints that you are taking early BP but haven't been seen on the field early in a month. Done deal. (Even though the Media is there at 2:00 PM and KNOWS you weren't there) Image is everything you know. Don't like the fact that the local media is too hard on you when you are in a slump, just complain to Rob. He'll shut 'em down. Show up for your insurance physical and get pissed cause it's too hard. Shoot, just leave.... Who cares right? John Allen comes down to chew your butt out for leaving and you throw a tantrum in front of him. Hey, who's John Allen anyway???? I noticed a lot of this started to change SLIGHTLY when Mackanin came in. Managerial changes make some guys nervous. For others it's no big deal.

Leyland represents order, discipline and tough love. In all fairness to some of the Reds' players, Griff, Dunn, EE, BP, Arroyo and maybe 2-3 others they are victims of a growing culture. The culture is to do just enough. No more no less. You're making ungodly amounts of money and no one is on your butt to get out there and give it 110&#37; everyday then why should you? If you can take a day off or maybe two and "conserve" yourself then why not? Sure, your name is in the lineup and you are on the field but hey why run hard, slide hard, give it your all? Dive for a ball? ME? C'mon coach it's a long season. If nobody is making you then why would you? It's not just the Reds. You can pick 5 maybe as many as 10 guys on almost any team. I use the names above, Griff, Dunn, EE, Arroyo, etc. because they are the common whipping boys on this site.

That's the culture that I see. Guys have GREAT talent and do just enough to get by. Hey, I'm in the big leagues now. Whew! I can cut out all that crazy BS they had me do in the minors. These guys put up good numbers even at 75% effort and in the end it all looks easy. What's even more interesting is every once in awhile a wild hair gets loose and some of these players really start pushing it and WHAM the numbers go off the chart and praise is abound. All the mental lapses and lolly gagging is forgiven. Amazing what can happen when you are in a contract year!! I'd probably get into better shape and play harder too if I had an extra few million coming my way. Ever see a boxer just go crazy in the last few rounds of a close fight. The judges love that. He ends up winning because he made it look like he was kicking some butt. Leaonard vs. Hagler comes to mind.

I know there are a lot of people that feel leadership is not important. Just throw enough numbers on the field and SOMETHING good will happen. Funny thing is YOU NEVER hear that from the guys who played. Ever. Only from the folks who never really played. Maybe some pee wee and a little HS ball. Not that you can't have an opinion on Baseball even if you NEVER EVER played. Just don't spew absolutes if you've never been there. Especially at that level. You don't need much of a leader to play APBA, Strat O or run simulations all night. (I did play Strat O Matic as a kid) I can not remember the last time I saw a Championship Won in any team sport that did not have a leader on the field and an equal or greater one guiding them. IMO, the leadership starts with the Manager, Head Coach etc. setting the tone. The players take it from there. That's just how it works.

Chip R
10-08-2007, 04:04 PM
Having said all that I DO NOT think he would have been right for the Reds. Not in a million. Cincinnati players are far too coddled. How do you think Jr. Dunn and EE among others would have responded to Leyland? My money says...not too well. Not in the time frame that the Reds would need anyway. There would have been too much "unhappy camper time" kind of like the missing Lazy Boy chair episode. Golf clubs in the clubhouse during a losing streak?? Probably, but I have a feeling all the shafts would be broken. :D



I remember him managing a fellow in PIT who marched to his own drummer and Leyland had a lot of success over there with him and earned his respect as well. You may be right that some of the Reds players are far too coddled. I'm guessing they wouldn't like Leyland's version of tough love but eventually they would respond to it because the man has a proven track record and the front office would back him up if the players wanted to go over Leyland's head. Unfortunately Leyland's no longer available but his mentor may be.

Team Clark
10-08-2007, 04:47 PM
I remember him managing a fellow in PIT who marched to his own drummer and Leyland had a lot of success over there with him and earned his respect as well. You may be right that some of the Reds players are far too coddled. I'm guessing they wouldn't like Leyland's version of tough love but eventually they would respond to it because the man has a proven track record and the front office would back him up if the players wanted to go over Leyland's head. Unfortunately Leyland's no longer available but his mentor may be.

I thought of that while writing this post. I'm glad you brought this up because it is very valid. IIRC, Bonds and Leyland got along well but only flapped over a non baseball related issue just ONCE. (That we know of anyway.) That's what I remember. With the Reds I think he may clash with MULTIPLE players at least initially. You mentioned RESPECT. That is the KEY to the whole puzzle IMO. Great post Chip.