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Degenerate39
10-08-2007, 05:14 PM
Castellini: Krivsky's safe

There's been a lot of speculation nationally about the possibility of former St. Louis GM Walt Jocketty ending up with the Reds, given the that Reds CEO Bob Castellini was once a limited partner in St. Louis and he's known to admire the work Jocketty did with the Cardinals.

But it's not going to happen.

"Wayne Krivsky is our GM. Period," Castellini said Monday through a spokesman.

Krivsky has one year remaining on his contract. The Reds are 152-172 in his two years as GM.

Jocketty was dismissed after the season by the Cardinals.

kbrake
10-08-2007, 05:24 PM
Just what any Reds fan should expect. Things never seem to really change around here.

jimbo
10-08-2007, 05:27 PM
Just what any Reds fan should expect. Things never seem to really change around here.

Krivsky has only been the GM for just over a year and a half.

kbrake
10-08-2007, 05:51 PM
His drafts have been nothing special. 2 year deals for Castro, Stanton, and Ross were horrible in 07 and should only be more painful to watch in 08. I give him credit for Arroyo and Phillips but at some point those two positives start to slip away to terrible moves he has made which far out number the few really good ones.

I(heart)Freel
10-08-2007, 06:21 PM
His drafts have been nothing special. 2 year deals for Castro, Stanton, and Ross were horrible in 07 and should only be more painful to watch in 08. I give him credit for Arroyo and Phillips but at some point those two positives start to slip away to terrible moves he has made which far out number the few really good ones.

Think I've seen other posts on here that more objectively weigh good versus bad moves in Krivsky's short tenure.

It's too easy to only list two in his favor and say the rest were crap.

Josh Hamilton and Jared Burton say hello, by the way.

DannyB
10-08-2007, 06:57 PM
Not that I am a big Krivsky fan but Jocketty isnt that great either. I think it would be a lateral move.

ChatterRed
10-08-2007, 07:06 PM
His drafts have been nothing special. 2 year deals for Castro, Stanton, and Ross were horrible in 07 and should only be more painful to watch in 08. I give him credit for Arroyo and Phillips but at some point those two positives start to slip away to terrible moves he has made which far out number the few really good ones.

To avoid getting banned, I'll restrain myself from calling you names or calling you stupid.........but your post sent me over the edge.

Krivsky has had 2 actual seasons and one offseason to improve this team. You pointed out a few bad moves........how about offsetting that with all the good moves and good things happening with the Reds.

There are players he didn't draft that have still progressed and improved in the minor leagues that in the past might have been traded or not developed as well as the Votto's, Bruce's, Bailey's and Cueto's seem to be developing. Krivsky has managed to not give in to the fans and rush these players. Honestly, the Reds have not had a good track record of developing players - but it appears that Votto and Bruce are the real deal. You don't just give credit to those who drafted these players......but you also credit the minor league system/coaches who helped them develop and the current management for overseeing their development, not rushing them or trading them away. Krivsky realizes, unlike former GM's, that we are small market and have to balance our payroll with young developed talent. The Reds are on the verge of having their First Basement and one of their outfielders come from our minors. I can't remember the last time that happened. Can you?

They are also on the verge of possibly having a couple of starting pitchers develop from our minors in Bailey and Cueto.

Moving on to moves:
Our #2 starter, Arroyo, we got for a song by trading Willy Mo Pena. Didn't Boston demote him last season?

At the time, Ross was a huge improveoment over Larue offensively. He struggled with his batting average this year but was not a defensive liability or lack of power.

WK got Phillips, our current and future second basement and probably eventual all-star, for a song. I have friends who are Cleveland Indian fans and they cry over that move.

Has stuck with Edwin Encarnacion and even demoted him earlier this season for him to work on his defense. Obviously, something or some coach in the minors helped EE tremendously because he came back a much improved defensive player and in the second half, his offense took off.

Signed Alex Gonzalez for SS. He was solid.

Signed Jeff Keppinger. The guy was a lifesaver this season. Could be a starter, but definitely an outstanding utility player who can play all infield positions.

Norris Hopper? Good move. Coats and Ellison? Stopgaps but they had good triple A pedigree's.

I think everyone was stunned but happy when we heard in the offseason that WK had extended Harang and Arroyo. All we heard was about Bronson wanting to go back to Boston and then he gets extended. Harang is the ace of the staff, now locked up for a few years more.

Stole Josh Hamilton in a rule 5 move.

Stole Jared Burton in a rule 5 move.

Got minor league pitcher, Maloney for a song.

Dumped Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns on Washington just as they approached bigger contracts and we all saw their pitiful season in Washington. WK had the foresight to know they weren't worth it.

So he's made a few bad moves. I'm sure some of these good moves were considered risks at the time and panned out in a very good way. The good moves FAR OUTWEIGH the bad moves.

All this in a 2 full seasons and one offseason.

Our infield and outfield are set next season. And our backups are set. The pitching staff needs improvement. What's new. Every major league pitching staff except the top 6 wealthiest teams that can buy anyone they want, are looking for quality pitching. More than likely, it will have to be developed through our minors, but hopefully we can either secure a free agent or make another steal of a trade for quality pitching.

I'm just shocked when people bash Krivsky. Two losing seasons. So what? Did you expect him to get hired and win immediately with the pig slop he was handed?

I'm done venting. Comments like that send me over the edge.

gedred69
10-08-2007, 08:10 PM
Think I've seen other posts on here that more objectively weigh good versus bad moves in Krivsky's short tenure.

It's too easy to only list two in his favor and say the rest were crap.

Josh Hamilton and Jared Burton say hello, by the way.

Besides Arroyo and Phillips, and as, I(heart) Freel points out Hamilton, Burton, lest we forget Keppinger? Fact is Krivsky has done fairly well in 1 1/2 years. If he was ---as we are told--- the architect of the Twins Minor League system, keep him here. There hasn't been much of anybody more effective at developing from within than the Twins. Need we name some names they've brought about? John Allen wanted Krivsky here 2 years earlier, but the previous owners over-ruled in favor of Ohioan O'Brien. I'm thinking this team might be steps further if Allen had his way, like,----IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!

GoReds33
10-08-2007, 08:38 PM
ChatterRed, to save space I didn't copy your comments, but I agree with a lot of them. I think that Krivsky has shown tremendous foresight in many of his moves. I think that that can sometimes escape him on his bad moves though. I would rather have Krivsky than Jockety, because I believe that he did what he felt was the right move in the trades so far. The trade with the Nationals didn't look good at the outset, but has turned out evently terrible for both teams. Hopefully Bray isn't hurt next year, and can be 100 percent, so we can get a full picture of his abilities.

gedred69
10-08-2007, 09:01 PM
To avoid getting banned, I'll restrain myself from calling you names or calling you stupid.........but your post sent me over the edge.

Krivsky has had 2 actual seasons and one offseason to improve this team. You pointed out a few bad moves........how about offsetting that with all the good moves and good things happening with the Reds.

There are players he didn't draft that have still progressed and improved in the minor leagues that in the past might have been traded or not developed as well as the Votto's, Bruce's, Bailey's and Cueto's seem to be developing. Krivsky has managed to not give in to the fans and rush these players. Honestly, the Reds have not had a good track record of developing players - but it appears that Votto and Bruce are the real deal. You don't just give credit to those who drafted these players......but you also credit the minor league system/coaches who helped them develop and the current management for overseeing their development, not rushing them or trading them away. Krivsky realizes, unlike former GM's, that we are small market and have to balance our payroll with young developed talent. The Reds are on the verge of having their First Basement and one of their outfielders come from our minors. I can't remember the last time that happened. Can you?

They are also on the verge of possibly having a couple of starting pitchers develop from our minors in Bailey and Cueto.

Moving on to moves:
Our #2 starter, Arroyo, we got for a song by trading Willy Mo Pena. Didn't Boston demote him last season?

At the time, Ross was a huge improveoment over Larue offensively. He struggled with his batting average this year but was not a defensive liability or lack of power.

WK got Phillips, our current and future second basement and probably eventual all-star, for a song. I have friends who are Cleveland Indian fans and they cry over that move.

Has stuck with Edwin Encarnacion and even demoted him earlier this season for him to work on his defense. Obviously, something or some coach in the minors helped EE tremendously because he came back a much improved defensive player and in the second half, his offense took off.

Signed Alex Gonzalez for SS. He was solid.

Signed Jeff Keppinger. The guy was a lifesaver this season. Could be a starter, but definitely an outstanding utility player who can play all infield positions.

Norris Hopper? Good move. Coats and Ellison? Stopgaps but they had good triple A pedigree's.

I think everyone was stunned but happy when we heard in the offseason that WK had extended Harang and Arroyo. All we heard was about Bronson wanting to go back to Boston and then he gets extended. Harang is the ace of the staff, now locked up for a few years more.

Stole Josh Hamilton in a rule 5 move.

Stole Jared Burton in a rule 5 move.

Got minor league pitcher, Maloney for a song.

Dumped Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns on Washington just as they approached bigger contracts and we all saw their pitiful season in Washington. WK had the foresight to know they weren't worth it.

So he's made a few bad moves. I'm sure some of these good moves were considered risks at the time and panned out in a very good way. The good moves FAR OUTWEIGH the bad moves.

All this in a 2 full seasons and one offseason.

Our infield and outfield are set next season. And our backups are set. The pitching staff needs improvement. What's new. Every major league pitching staff except the top 6 wealthiest teams that can buy anyone they want, are looking for quality pitching. More than likely, it will have to be developed through our minors, but hopefully we can either secure a free agent or make another steal of a trade for quality pitching.

I'm just shocked when people bash Krivsky. Two losing seasons. So what? Did you expect him to get hired and win immediately with the pig slop he was handed?

I'm done venting. Comments like that send me over the edge.

Sorry your post wasn't up when I posted. While I agree with about everything you say, I must tell you; You need to stop holding back. Let people know how you really feel, you will sense a wondrous release that will relieve anxiety and increase your feelings of well- being. Otherwise, so well put the Reds should hire you to evaluate their moves in the off-season. Let's see what Krivsky can pull from obscurity,-----again, while others will be ringing their hands and gnashing their teeth because we didn't sign Morneau, Mauer, Peavy, Webb, Santana, Paplebon, etc, etc. And yes, Krivsky apparently realized Kearns and Lopez were counterfeit. Kearns whines and pouts like a little girl, and Lopez--well, nevermind.

Will M
10-08-2007, 09:37 PM
Krisky needs to be judged after 3-5 years not 1.5

Getting rid of a guy who has gotten us Arroyo, Phillips, Hamilton, etc would be stupid.

I am a 'kool aid drinker' when it comes to Krisky.

I chalk up the deals with Castro, Stanton,etc as learning on the job. He has NOT done anything truely awful like trading away Bruce, Cueto,etc nor saddled us with bad fat long term deals.
"The Trade" cost us Lopez and Kearns who aren't that good anyway.

kbrake
10-08-2007, 10:27 PM
Wow how people twist the truth "WK had the foresight to know (Kearns and Lopez) weren't worth it." Really? Foresight? Please. The point with that trade, which I didnt even bring up in my original post cause I really didnt think it was up for debate, has always been that WK should have got much more for two everyday starters. Majewski is garbage plain and simple. We got Bill Bray for two everyday players.

Josh Hamilton I'm sorry but I wont give that one to Krivsky. If Jerry Narron was not the manager Hamilton never gets his chance with the Reds.

Alex Gonzalez we will see how you feel about him making 5 mil per half way through this season or even into next.

Hopper and Keppinger are good players. The test will be to see if Krivsky is smart enough to do with them what he should. Both should be key role players off the bench, but what will happen is Krivsky will dump Edwin in some kind of deal for Noah Lowry. So Keppinger will start everyday and by the all star break reality will have set in. (see David Ross 06 to 07) Lowry will be nightmare but oh well. And as for Hopper he will plantoon in center with Hamilton.

Go ahead and give him credit for other peoples minor leaguers because boy does Drew Stubbs really excite me.

How are we set on offense and defense for next season? We dont have a catcher. We desperately need to move Junior but it wont happen. And our bullpen is a mess. It was bad in 06 and Krivsky some how made it worse in 07. Castro, Stanton, and Conine dont belong on major league rosters. And when your a small market team you cant afford to waste money on trash. Sorry I havent been impressed.

gedred69
10-08-2007, 10:40 PM
kbreak, Narron never knew Hamilton was available rule 5. Krivsky like any good GM noticed, and knowing his past potential, asked those who he knew what they thought. Then Narron said "by all means". We are not questioning Narron's evaluations here, he was just a crappy Mgr. I will re-iterate and para-phrase my previous post: If in fact Krivsky was the architect of the Twins system as we are led to believe, keep him. Check the record.

AmarilloRed
10-08-2007, 10:40 PM
Krivsky has made a few mistakes in attempting to upgrade the bullpen. He also failed to improve the starting pitching last season when he stayed pat with the starting rotation of Harang. Arroyo, Lohse, Belisle, and Milton. That was an understandable mistake if he thought that the Reds would duplicate or improve on their 2006 record. I would hope he would be able to trade or sign in FA a starting pitcher or two to short deals and improve the ballclub. Otherwise, I think he has done a fine job in improving the talent on the roster and he had done nothing for Castellini to want to get rid of him.

kbrake
10-08-2007, 10:47 PM
kbreak, Narron never knew Hamilton was available rule 5. Krivsky like any good GM noticed, and knowing his past potential, asked those who he knew what they thought. Then Narron said "by all means". We are not questioning Narron's evaluations here, he was just a crappy Mgr. I will re-iterate and para-phrase my previous post: If in fact Krivsky was the architect of the Twins system as we are led to believe, keep him. Check the record.

I know Narron was a horrible manager trust me I think we are all on the same page there haha. My point is without Johnny and Jerry Narron I dont think Hamilton would be a Red and I think it is fair to say that.

And sorry but I think Ryan the actual GM had more to do with building that franchise.

Krivsky has proved that he is good at finding talent in low risk/high reward players. Cantu I think could be another. My problem has been his drafts, and what he has done in free agency. I would much rather sit on the money than give anything to Conine, Stanton, and Castro.

I will give alot of credit to Krivsky for one key move.....not dealing Dunn when all the pressure was on from ignorant fans and even more ignorant announcers.

gedred69
10-08-2007, 10:54 PM
Krivsky has made a few mistakes in attempting to upgrade the bullpen. He also failed to improve the starting pitching last season when he stayed pat with the starting rotation of Harang. Arroyo, Lohse, Belisle, and Milton. That was an understandable mistake if he thought that the Reds would duplicate or improve on their 2006 record. I would hope he would be able to trade or sign in FA a starting pitcher or two to short deals and improve the ballclub. Otherwise, I think he has done a fine job in improving the talent on the roster and he had done nothing for Castellini to want to get rid of him.

Agreeable observations. Prob' is, there isn't much out there in FA unless I'm missing somebody. I have heard insipitibly Lohse is as good as there is! Any further upgrade pitching wise will have to come via trade, or if fortune smiles, the Minors. Who would you trade for who? In a previous post I mentioned the Reds are loaded with OF prospects. Which are you willing to part with for pitching help now?

gedred69
10-08-2007, 11:06 PM
I know Narron was a horrible manager trust me I think we are all on the same page there haha. My point is without Johnny and Jerry Narron I dont think Hamilton would be a Red and I think it is fair to say that.

And sorry but I think Ryan the actual GM had more to do with building that franchise.

Krivsky has proved that he is good at finding talent in low risk/high reward players. Cantu I think could be another. My problem has been his drafts, and what he has done in free agency. I would much rather sit on the money than give anything to Conine, Stanton, and Castro.

I will give alot of credit to Krivsky for one key move.....not dealing Dunn when all the pressure was on from ignorant fans and even more ignorant announcers.

ChatterRed
10-08-2007, 11:08 PM
Wow how people twist the truth "WK had the foresight to know (Kearns and Lopez) weren't worth it." Really? Foresight? Please. The point with that trade, which I didnt even bring up in my original post cause I really didnt think it was up for debate, has always been that WK should have got much more for two everyday starters.

Oh, I guess you have a list of other teams that wanted Kearns and Lopez really badly that they were going to trade the Reds much better return than Majewski and Bray, huh? Can you please name those teams and the return they were offering?

My point is: MAYBE THE REST OF MLB HAD THE SAME INTELLIGENT FORESIGHT AS WAYNE KRIVSKY AND DIDN'T THINK THAT MUCH OF KEARNS AND LOPEZ. We all know leatherpants crummy reputation at evaluating talent.........obviously, he was one of the few, if possibly, the only GM interested in Kearns and Lopez.

In the end, maybe dumping those two trash pile players was the best Krivsky could do. Maybe Majewski and Bray was the best offer on the table, and maybe, just maybe.........Krivsky was most interested in not having to go to arbitration or negotiate contracts with those worthless two.

You assume alot thinking there were better offers out there for Kearns and Lopez. You also place a very high value on those two, when this past season showed just what they were worth, or weren't worth, however you want to look at it. I say, Krivsky (by way of his advisors) had enough info to know those two were probably at their highest worth and it was all downhill from there.

mound_patrol
10-08-2007, 11:10 PM
So krivsky is a great dumpster diver. But what has he done when its time to make a bigger decision? He's wasted a ton of money in multi year deals on old veterans. Then after giving these contracts and seeing the mistakes in them he continued to let them run out there when he could have been giving young guys like salmon chances to show his stuff.

And thank you chatterred for making my night. to actual say he had the foresight in "The Trade" made me laugh out loud. And also giving him credit for our minor league studs is laughable. That's a real stretch. Kriv has shown he can't make the big decision.

mound_patrol
10-08-2007, 11:12 PM
Oh, I guess you have a list of other teams that wanted Kearns and Lopez really badly that they were going to trade the Reds much better return than Majewski and Bray, huh? Can you please name those teams and the return they were offering?

My point is: MAYBE THE REST OF MLB HAD THE SAME INTELLIGENT FORESIGHT AS WAYNE KRIVSKY AND DIDN'T THINK THAT MUCH OF KEARNS AND LOPEZ. We all know leatherpants crummy reputation at evaluating talent.........obviously, he was one of the few, if possibly, the only GM interested in Kearns and Lopez.

In the end, maybe dumping those two trash pile players was the best Krivsky could do. Maybe Majewski and Bray was the best offer on the table, and maybe, just maybe.........Krivsky was most interested in not having to go to arbitration or negotiate contracts with those worthless two.

You assume alot thinking there were better offers out there for Kearns and Lopez. You also place a very high value on those two, when this past season showed just what they were worth, or weren't worth, however you want to look at it. I say, Krivsky (by way of his advisors) had enough info to know those two were probably at their highest worth and it was all downhill from there.

I can remember a lot of interest in Kearns. and the interest in both guys would have increased greatly if he waited till the deadline instead of making an inpulse move since the reds were in a terrible slide at the time.

kbrake
10-08-2007, 11:14 PM
Oh, I guess you have a list of other teams that wanted Kearns and Lopez really badly that they were going to trade the Reds much better return than Majewski and Bray, huh? Can you please name those teams and the return they were offering?

My point is: MAYBE THE REST OF MLB HAD THE SAME INTELLIGENT FORESIGHT AS WAYNE KRIVSKY AND DIDN'T THINK THAT MUCH OF KEARNS AND LOPEZ. We all know leatherpants crummy reputation at evaluating talent.........obviously, he was one of the few, if possibly, the only GM interested in Kearns and Lopez.

In the end, maybe dumping those two trash pile players was the best Krivsky could do. Maybe Majewski and Bray was the best offer on the table, and maybe, just maybe.........Krivsky was most interested in not having to go to arbitration or negotiate contracts with those worthless two.

You assume alot thinking there were better offers out there for Kearns and Lopez. You also place a very high value on those two, when this past season showed just what they were worth, or weren't worth, however you want to look at it. I say, Krivsky (by way of his advisors) had enough info to know those two were probably at their highest worth and it was all downhill from there.

So he had foresight to see that those two were worthless, even though Lopez in 06 got on base at a .358 clip and stole 44 bases, but not the foresight to see what Majewski would be? You cant have it both ways man. And your right I dont have a list of teams with better offers, but I simply refuse to believe that was the best offer.

What I do believe is that Krivsky really thought Royce Clayton would improve this team down the stretch. Way to swindle them Wayne shake em down for all they are worth.

redsupport
10-09-2007, 12:04 AM
he also "stole" Rheal Cormier, a slick piece of legerdemain

Natty Redlocks
10-09-2007, 07:55 AM
So he had foresight to see that those two were worthless, even though Lopez in 06 got on base at a .358 clip and stole 44 bases, but not the foresight to see what Majewski would be? You cant have it both ways man. And your right I dont have a list of teams with better offers, but I simply refuse to believe that was the best offer.

What I do believe is that Krivsky really thought Royce Clayton would improve this team down the stretch. Way to swindle them Wayne shake em down for all they are worth.

Please tell us more about these fabulous imaginary deals he turned up his nose at.

Bottom line to me is that he's brought in some pretty impressive talent, in a pretty short period of time, for next to nothing. I for one would like to see him go at least one year without adding a free difference maker before thinking about replacing him.

durl
10-09-2007, 12:09 PM
I agree that Krivsky should be given another year. No GM is going to take a small-market team (rather, small payroll) with a poor pitching staff and a weak farm system and turn them into a World Series champion in less than 2 years.

He's provided plenty of evidence that he deserves more time to build this ballclub.


he also "stole" Rheal Cormier, a slick piece of legerdemain

Take a look at Cormier's numbers for the year prior to Krivsky picking him up. They're pretty good. When money's tight in baseball, you gamble. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

ThirdBaseCoach
10-09-2007, 01:11 PM
ChatterRed - you have the best posts in this thread by far. A few others seems to nit pick one point here or there, and then present weak counterpoints to you well thought out statements.

Keep it up.

Now, here is a corollary to your points about WK. Let's look farther into his accomplishments. The first move Wayne made when he became GM was hire Pete Mackanin - his very first hire. Wayne knew that Pete would be a strong contributor to the success of the Reds. I contend that Pete should be awarded a two year deal to help the organization continue towards its ultimate success.

HokieRed
10-09-2007, 02:10 PM
Chatter Red, I agree with you on Kearns and Lopez. A consistent feature of RZers and other home town fans (in every market) is to believe in the stupidity of other general managers. I suspect there was much less interest in Kearns and/or Lopez than Reds fans have believed and I would suggest their subsequent performance has borne out the rightness of that lukewarm interest. I think much of the criticism of Dan O'Brien's supposed inaction can be understood the same way. People have dumped on him for not trading Sean Casey after his good year in 2004, but I'm sure he tried and got relatively little interest. Other GM's weren't so stupid as to think Casey was going to have that kind of year again. They looked at what he had done over several years, his injury history, and his incredibly inflated salary (thanks to Leatherpants). They weren't interested. They were right. Just how right they were is proven by how cheaply the Reds were able to improve the position, getting better production out of Hatteberg than they'd been getting out of Casey for about one-fifth the cost. On that and most other important things, O'Brien got a bad rap.

AmarilloRed
10-09-2007, 02:27 PM
We will never know what deals Krivsky turned down when he accepted Bray and Majewski. That may have been the very best deal he could get for those two, and we will never know. Austin Kearns was not the same player he was coming up because of the injuries he had suffered, and Lopez had not duplicated his previous success. It may very well be that Krivsky unloaded 2 players who were not going to help the Reds in the future. I imagine we can discuss The Trade in a seperate thread however. Overall, Wayne has done a good job, and I look forward to seeing what he can do this off-season.

Jack Burton
10-09-2007, 11:04 PM
If that was the best offer at the time then he should have waited. The cormier move was laughable, everytime I seen him pitch for the phils he was getting knocked around.

He has brought in some talent, so I expect him to get another year to see what happens. It's definitely a make or break year for krivsky in 2008.

Natty Redlocks
10-10-2007, 12:02 AM
If that was the best offer at the time then he should have waited. The cormier move was laughable, everytime I seen him pitch for the phils he was getting knocked around.

He has brought in some talent, so I expect him to get another year to see what happens. It's definitely a make or break year for krivsky in 2008.

Waited for what? Is it so hard to accept that those two were just never as good or as highly thought of as we all hoped they were? Their performances since the trade haven't exactly put their value through the roof. It looks like waiting would have stuck the team with two overpriced players they no longer really wanted; at least they got something for them.

kbrake
10-10-2007, 12:30 AM
Kearns was getting us a return of Jake Westbrook by himself just a season before. So yeah call me crazy but I think Wayne should have been able to get more for Kearns and Lopez than Bill Bray. Fact is WK had horrible foresight and saw value in Majewski and Clayton.

jimbo
10-10-2007, 12:32 AM
The cormier move was laughable, everytime I seen him pitch for the phils he was getting knocked around.


Yeah, he was getting knocked around so much he had a whopping 1.59 ERA with them.

Natty Redlocks
10-10-2007, 08:08 AM
Kearns was getting us a return of Jake Westbrook by himself just a season before. So yeah call me crazy but I think Wayne should have been able to get more for Kearns and Lopez than Bill Bray. Fact is WK had horrible foresight and saw value in Majewski and Clayton.

Everybody assumed the return would be bigger. You have to conclude that A) Wayne Krivsky is developmentally disabled or B) The better offers just weren't there anymore, and weren't ever going to be there again. Cutting your losses and making the best of the previous GMs inability to take advantage of the better trade possibilities when they actually existed isn't horrible foresight. Was it a great trade for the Reds? Doesn't look like it. Could it have been better? We have no way of knowing for sure. But as one of the first big trades for a new GM, it wasn't nearly as disastrous as people are making it out to be.

Jack Burton
10-10-2007, 11:23 AM
Yeah, he was getting knocked around so much he had a whopping 1.59 ERA with them.

If you would have ever watched him pitch you would have known that era was a fluke. Where is he now?

kbrake
10-10-2007, 12:08 PM
I guess the one thing I am waiting to see from WK is who he hires as manager. It is going to be a big decision. I just want someone who knows where to hit Dunn and someone that will protect young arms. Though WK could help this new hire alot by giving him a serviceable bullpen.

durl
10-10-2007, 02:30 PM
If you would have ever watched him pitch you would have known that era was a fluke. Where is he now?

That's why I mentioned you sometimes have to gamble when your payroll is small. Cormier's ERA was extremely good in a tough NL East division so I can understand Krivsky taking a chance on him.

BurgervilleBuck
10-10-2007, 03:28 PM
I contend that Pete should be awarded a two year deal to help the organization continue towards its ultimate success.
I'm going to disagree. I don't think an unproven manager should get more than one year. Have him show the front office that he can coach before you award him with something more than a year.

Caveman Techie
10-10-2007, 03:58 PM
Wow how people twist the truth

Josh Hamilton I'm sorry but I wont give that one to Krivsky. If Jerry Narron was not the manager Hamilton never gets his chance with the Reds.

Speaking of twisting the truth. It has been stated MANY times that Jerry Narron didn't know the Reds were even going after Hamilton until they were ready to pull the trigger. This was even stated by Jerry Narron himself. Here's my source pay close attention to the first two paragraphs.

Old ties renewed
PLAYER & COACH: JOSH HAMILTON & JOHNNY NARRON
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM!

When the Reds decided to select Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5 draft, they had no idea that manager Jerry Narron knew Hamilton - much less had a personal coach in mind for the fallen phenom.

"His jaw dropped when I told him we were thinking about selecting him," general manager Wayne Krivsky said.Narron first saw Hamilton play when he was a 15-year-old, playing for the select team of Narron's brother, Johnny. The day Jerry showed up to see Hamilton play, he was catching. Hamilton is left-handed, mind you.

But Jerry saw the talent.

Ten years and a lot of miles later, Josh and Johnny are together again as coach and player. Hamilton was the star of Reds camp. Johnny Narron was there to help with the transition from fallen star to hot prospect again.

The pair could be extremely important to the Reds' fortunes this year and beyond.

When the Reds were trying to figure out ways to keep Hamilton, who missed nearly four years because of drug suspensions, out of trouble, Jerry suggested Johnny.

Johnny, who worked for the Milwaukee Brewers the last three years, had inquired about moving to the Reds as a minor-league instructor.

Younger brother Jerry wanted Johnny to come on as a video coordinator who travels with the team. Johnny's background is in hitting. The acquisition of Hamilton made it a no-brainer to hire Johnny.

The Reds have made it no secret that part of Johnny's duties are to monitor Hamilton, from keeping his meal money to Bible study.

"I'm here to help him any way I can," Narron said.

So far, so good.

Hamilton played beyond all expectations, and he has kept his act clean off the field.

2 MINUTES WITH JOHNNY NARRON

When did you know Josh Hamilton still had it? "Actually, I saw his bat speed back in January in North Carolina. Being here, the thing that really encouraged me was his discipline at the plate. For a young hitter, he's had a lot of discipline. That's what tipped me off."

What's the most difficult thing for a player like him to come back? "I think he's got hurdles to cross several different ways - just walking in the clubhouse that first day, being around his teammates. I don't think there's one particular thing."

Have you heard much about Opening Day in Cincinnati? "I've heard that it's the most important day in Ohio."

Give me a scouting report on Josh Hamilton: "Six tools. He runs well. Throws well. Plays good defense. Hits. Hits with power. And has great makeup."

Could he have been a big-league pitcher? "That was the discussion when he came out of high school among the scouts and scouting directors. Do you draft him as pitcher? Or do you draft as him as a position player? So there was interest back then."

2 MINUTES WITH JOSH HAMILTON

When did you know you still had it? "What kind of question is that? (Laughs.) You always know. If you don't have the confidence as a player, you're not going to succeed. I realized I could still play the game."

What was the most difficult thing about coming back this spring? "Not baseball."

Have you heard much about Opening Day in Cincinnati? "Nothing. Not one word."

Give us a scouting report on Josh Hamilton: "A guy who's going to battle you and give it everything he's got when he plays. A guy who is hard to play against. It's hard to defend guys who are having fun all the time."

Do you miss pitching? "I miss it sometimes as far as the competitive aspect of it, being on the mound with the game on the line. It would get me fired up."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...T04/704010397/

kbrake
10-10-2007, 04:16 PM
Ok I will admit I was wrong in my first post. I thought Narron had alot more to do with it. Count Hamilton as another good move for Wayne. To go along with Burton, Phillips, and Arroyo. The list of horrible decisions is still much longer.

mound_patrol
10-10-2007, 04:22 PM
Everybody assumed the return would be bigger. You have to conclude that A) Wayne Krivsky is developmentally disabled or B) The better offers just weren't there anymore, and weren't ever going to be there again. Cutting your losses and making the best of the previous GMs inability to take advantage of the better trade possibilities when they actually existed isn't horrible foresight. Was it a great trade for the Reds? Doesn't look like it. Could it have been better? We have no way of knowing for sure. But as one of the first big trades for a new GM, it wasn't nearly as disastrous as people are making it out to be.

Or C) he made the move an entire month before the deadline. The bullpen was struggling and he took the best offer at the time that would address the bullpen.

mound_patrol
10-10-2007, 04:26 PM
That's why I mentioned you sometimes have to gamble when your payroll is small. Cormier's ERA was extremely good in a tough NL East division so I can understand Krivsky taking a chance on him.

A GM that looks solely at the guys ERA only is not a good GM. If he would have looked at his BABIP or his batting average against he would have saw it was only a matter of time before that ERA sky rocketed. To add to it he reworked Cormiers contract to get him here and added an extra year.

ChatterRed
10-10-2007, 05:15 PM
There was a guy who use to post on here, I can't remember his name. He worked for the Reds and had amazing insight. Last year when Kearns was dealt, he posted alot of interesting insider information on how it was well known around MLB that Kearns had a hitch in his swing and struck out alot and that he was not a hard worker behind the scenes. Kearns had a bad reputation league wide and was not that highly thought of. I wish I could remember the name of the poster, but he had established himself over time with alot of good insider information that most of the time came true. By the time I got done reading his information, I realized that Kearns was a problem child and was never going to reach his full potential. And I was a Kearns fan not long before that.

Wayne Krivsky has done an amazing job balancing young cheap players with a few higher priced players.

I agree the pitching is his last hurdle. But he knows he can't break the bank in free agency and try and buy a pennant or World Series. And obviously he doesn't want to be a one year wonder. He wants to build a solid organization through development and smart moves. Name me one GM who has made all good moves and not made a few bad ones? And would you rather have a GM who sits on his hands and does nothing? GM's have to take a few risks here and there. Most of the pitchers Krivsky has taken a chance on were stopgaps. Wayne knows this organization wasn't ready to compete and that his plan was in the beginning to middle stages. He is putting together a long term solution for this team.

Impatience runs rampant on this board. You cannot turn organizations around at the drop of a hat. But I would bet money that the Reds compete for the division title next season, in Krivsky's THIRD SEASON. Not bad.

kbrake
10-10-2007, 05:44 PM
Chatter I agree with alot of that post. If you want to talk about a plan of development then we better hope his drafts improve and real soon. I know you think he has put the people in place to develop Bruce, Bailey, Votto, and Cueto but I wonder why those people havent been abel to work their skills with Stubbs. And drafting a high school catcher in the first round makes zero sense to me. And please dont ruin this debate by bringing up Joe Mauer thats a little different.

I dont hate Krivsky but with our payroll we can not afford to make multi year mistakes with the Mike Stanton and Juan Castro's of the world.

And I really lost some love for Krivsky with the way he dragged his feet to fire Narron. It was obvious he had lost his team since the middle of May but it took two months for Krivsky to finally let him go.

As far as the whole Kearns issue goes. I was never that big a fan of his. Not since fat Ray King sat on him and ruined his shoulder. I just dont understand how Jake Westbrook one year turns into Kearns and Lopez for Bill Bray the next year. And trust me I was furious with O'Brien for not taking Westbrook for Kearns.

OUReds
10-10-2007, 06:10 PM
Do you have a reliable source on a potential Westbrook for Kearns deal? We have no idea if that was an offer on the table.

Goodness knows Krivsky hasn't been perfect, but expecting him to turn around a pitching staff as historically bad as he inherited in less then 2 seasons? Those are unrealistic expectations. And while some of his pitching acquisitions haven't worked out, Maloney Burton and Arroyo are good starts.

I also give him credit in that his poor moves don't seem to have hurt the Reds long term (Eric Milton says hello), while his good moves will pay dividends well into the future (Hamilton, Phillips, Arroyo, the Harang extension).

WMR
10-10-2007, 07:53 PM
I remember a similar vote of confidence for Obie and Narron shortly before their respective demises...

kbrake
10-10-2007, 09:36 PM
Do you have a reliable source on a potential Westbrook for Kearns deal? We have no idea if that was an offer on the table.

Goodness knows Krivsky hasn't been perfect, but expecting him to turn around a pitching staff as historically bad as he inherited in less then 2 seasons? Those are unrealistic expectations. And while some of his pitching acquisitions haven't worked out, Maloney Burton and Arroyo are good starts.

I also give him credit in that his poor moves don't seem to have hurt the Reds long term (Eric Milton says hello), while his good moves will pay dividends well into the future (Hamilton, Phillips, Arroyo, the Harang extension).


Do a search there are 1000 threads with tons of links about Kearns/Westbrook. Crazy how many Reds fans were against that idea.

I didnt expect him to turn the staff around in less than two seasons. I expected him to make one of the worst pens in baseball at least slightly better. Without looking up stats it sure seems like it managed to get worse.

I have no idea what your talking about with your last bit there. Bad moves didnt hurt the Reds long term like the Milton deal? Milton got 3 years. Stanton and Castro got 2. Now if your talking money I see your point. Although if Gonzo doesnt have a better 08 you can add him to the list of bad moves.

I wouldnt have near the problem with Krivsky if he could admit his mistakes and not wait so long in the hope that they will turn around. Stanton and Narron should have both been let go by June, but it seems someone has a hard time admitting failure. I dont even know where to start with Castro. He might be the most useless player in baseball and WK gave him TWO years. That alone should justify him being fired.

Oxblood
10-10-2007, 09:59 PM
^Didn't he also give Coffey an extension this year, what's up with that?

kbrake
10-10-2007, 10:46 PM
^Didn't he also give Coffey an extension this year, what's up with that?

Great foresight.

Caveman Techie
10-10-2007, 11:19 PM
And how much money did WK give Castro? You keep pointing to the fact he gave Castro a two year deal. Big whoop you can't fill your entire roster with A-rod's unless you spend like the Yankees. And Milton's contract hurt alot more money wise than Castro and Stanton together. As long as WK isn't handing the starting SS job over to Castro I don't have a problem with that signing.

I'm not saying WK hasn't made his mistakes because he has, but so has every other GM in the game of baseball. Should Billy Beane be fired because he traded Harang to the Reds? You win some and you lose some. Considering the state the Reds were in when WK first took over I would say he's done a decent job overall I would rate him a C+ to B-.

As for the true value of Kearns, it's not everyone elses job to do the research for you. It's your argument you need to provide the proof and forum rumor posts are not proof. If you can link to an article suggesting the Westbrook for Kearns trade or even a Gammons "hot tip" (which is only one step above the forums) then yes you have supported your argument that Kearns was worth alot more than what WK got for him.

OUReds
10-10-2007, 11:47 PM
Do a search there are 1000 threads with tons of links about Kearns/Westbrook. Crazy how many Reds fans were against that idea.

I didnt expect him to turn the staff around in less than two seasons. I expected him to make one of the worst pens in baseball at least slightly better. Without looking up stats it sure seems like it managed to get worse.

I have no idea what your talking about with your last bit there. Bad moves didnt hurt the Reds long term like the Milton deal? Milton got 3 years. Stanton and Castro got 2. Now if your talking money I see your point. Although if Gonzo doesnt have a better 08 you can add him to the list of bad moves.

I wouldnt have near the problem with Krivsky if he could admit his mistakes and not wait so long in the hope that they will turn around. Stanton and Narron should have both been let go by June, but it seems someone has a hard time admitting failure. I dont even know where to start with Castro. He might be the most useless player in baseball and WK gave him TWO years. That alone should justify him being fired.

Yes, my point is that the poor signings have not hamstrung the Reds like O'Brian's signing of Milton did.

The Juan Castro deal was for 2 million over 2 years. Was it a mistake? Of course it was. But to say he should be fired over such a minor deal? Not in my mind.

As I mentioned, Krivsky hasn't been perfect by a long shot. Obviously he swung and missed at bolstering the bullpen last offseason. Still, pitching is the rarest commodity in baseball right now and Krivsky essentially started with nothing. It's going to take time and I think he's made plenty of positive moves for the future.

I also did a search for Kearns and Westbrook, and while there were reports that this deal was turned down by O'Brian, it hardly seems fair to assume that the deal could be replicated by Krivsky under far different circumstances 7 months later. I suppose it does show what a bad GM O'Brian was though.

cacollinsmba
10-11-2007, 12:02 AM
Krivsky didn't sign Milton.

OUReds
10-11-2007, 12:21 AM
Doh!

Edited.

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 01:28 AM
And how much money did WK give Castro? You keep pointing to the fact he gave Castro a two year deal. Big whoop you can't fill your entire roster with A-rod's unless you spend like the Yankees. And Milton's contract hurt alot more money wise than Castro and Stanton together. As long as WK isn't handing the starting SS job over to Castro I don't have a problem with that signing.

I'm not saying WK hasn't made his mistakes because he has, but so has every other GM in the game of baseball. Should Billy Beane be fired because he traded Harang to the Reds? You win some and you lose some. Considering the state the Reds were in when WK first took over I would say he's done a decent job overall I would rate him a C+ to B-.

As for the true value of Kearns, it's not everyone elses job to do the research for you. It's your argument you need to provide the proof and forum rumor posts are not proof. If you can link to an article suggesting the Westbrook for Kearns trade or even a Gammons "hot tip" (which is only one step above the forums) then yes you have supported your argument that Kearns was worth alot more than what WK got for him.

Where's your research saying that Kearns had no trade value. Dont go after someone else if you aren't doing any research either. And to compare Beane's trade of Harang to Krivsky signing Castro is laughable. We all knew castro was worthless. Harang was unknown. Harang has far outreached everyone's expectations. And two, that trade is typical of Beane. He's known for going after guys to make a playoff push and then use their free agency to get draft picks. So its not like he just flushed money down the drain like Krivsky did with Castro and Stanton.

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 01:31 AM
Yes, my point is that the poor signings have not hamstrung the Reds like O'Brian's signing of Milton did.

The Juan Castro deal was for 2 million over 2 years. Was it a mistake? Of course it was. But to say he should be fired over such a minor deal? Not in my mind.

As I mentioned, Krivsky hasn't been perfect by a long shot. Obviously he swung and missed at bolstering the bullpen last offseason. Still, pitching is the rarest commodity in baseball right now and Krivsky essentially started with nothing. It's going to take time and I think he's made plenty of positive moves for the future.

I also did a search for Kearns and Westbrook, and while there were reports that this deal was turned down by O'Brian, it hardly seems fair to assume that the deal could be replicated by Krivsky under far different circumstances 7 months later. I suppose it does show what a bad GM O'Brian was though.

As I've said before, my reasoning for bashing Krivsky for "The Trade" is how fast he pulled the trigger on the few trading chips we had.

jimbo
10-11-2007, 01:51 AM
As I've said before, my reasoning for bashing Krivsky for "The Trade" is how fast he pulled the trigger on the few trading chips we had.

And I think some are saying that those "chips" weren't the "chips" that some are making them out to be.

redsupport
10-11-2007, 02:12 AM
krivsky is safe

that means
reds are OUT

redsupport
10-11-2007, 02:12 AM
krivsky is safe

that means
reds are OUT

jimbo
10-11-2007, 02:35 AM
krivsky is safe

that means
reds are OUT

I'm sure that would make you as happy as a clam.

Degenerate39
10-11-2007, 07:12 AM
krivsky is safe

that means
reds are OUT

I have to disagree with this. If it wasn't for Kriv I'd say the Reds would be awful for years to come. No Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Josh Hamilton, etc. Most of the players that everyone would consider core players wouldn't be in Cincy.

Caveman Techie
10-11-2007, 11:55 AM
Where's your research saying that Kearns had no trade value. Dont go after someone else if you aren't doing any research either. And to compare Beane's trade of Harang to Krivsky signing Castro is laughable. We all knew castro was worthless. Harang was unknown. Harang has far outreached everyone's expectations. And two, that trade is typical of Beane. He's known for going after guys to make a playoff push and then use their free agency to get draft picks. So its not like he just flushed money down the drain like Krivsky did with Castro and Stanton.

I'm not the one making the argument that Kearns was worth more. I'm simply asking someone else to support THEIR argument. But if you want some evidence to support the value of kearns here you go. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2518314

And your right, to compare WK signing Castro to the trade for Harang is ridiculous. To trade away a starting pitcher that turns into an Ace in a hitters park is much worse than signing a veteran glove that has no bat to be a bench player.

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 01:45 PM
I'm not the one making the argument that Kearns was worth more. I'm simply asking someone else to support THEIR argument. But if you want some evidence to support the value of kearns here you go. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2518314

And your right, to compare WK signing Castro to the trade for Harang is ridiculous. To trade away a starting pitcher that turns into an Ace in a hitters park is much worse than signing a veteran glove that has no bat to be a bench player.

You obviously completely missed my point. Look at why that trade was made, and where they were at the time. Harang wasn't expected to be more than a backend rotation guy while Guillen was crushing the ball. Guillen was picked up like I said because he would help them with their playoff push and then would be used to get draft picks. To get that help they gave up a guy who was projected to be a starter but nothing special. As a GM who has strong starting pitching you make that move easily.

Then with Castro's case every one knew castro had no range anymore to go along with his always weak hitting. Yet he gets a 2 year deal. Then to add to it even when it shows up that everyone else was right and he was terrible Krivsky continued to allow him to be on the big league club. Where would everyone's favorite player Keppinger be had Castro not gotten hurt? Where was the foresight from kriv there.

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 01:50 PM
I'm not the one making the argument that Kearns was worth more. I'm simply asking someone else to support THEIR argument. But if you want some evidence to support the value of kearns here you go. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2518314

And your right, to compare WK signing Castro to the trade for Harang is ridiculous. To trade away a starting pitcher that turns into an Ace in a hitters park is much worse than signing a veteran glove that has no bat to be a bench player.

And how does that article support your case supporting kearns had no value. If anything it said the opposite. It said the Reds paid a steep price to just get bullpen arms. To me that means the Reds gave up more worth then they got.

Caveman Techie
10-11-2007, 03:00 PM
It supports the case of what value Kearns actually did have, by showing what he was traded for. I also remember the Kearns for Westbrook trade rumours and that O'brien was the one to decline that trade. And as someone else pointed out it just goes to show how bad of a GM O'brien actually was. However in the following year Kearns didn't exactly help his value any by showing up to spring training overweight and with a bad additude. I think that may have hurt his value some. But I do agree with you that WK did overpay for bullpen arms, but I also understand why he did it too.

And I also agree with you that at the time of the Harang trade the A's needed a bat to help them with their playoff aspirations. And at the time it may have looked like the A's won that trade, but looking back at it now it's obvious the Reds won that trade in a big way. Your right the A's projected Harang to be "nothing special" and so they traded him for a half a year rental. My point was they were wrong! Harang has turned in to one of the most dominating pitchers in the NL and he's done it all while pitching in a hitters park! Beane was wrong. Should he be fired because he was wrong on one guy? No obviously not. He has proven to be one of the most sucessfull GM's of our era by keeping a small market team in the post-season year after year.

I'm not trying to compare WK to Beane cause obviously Wayne doesn't have the track record yet. But I'm willing to give him some time to establish himself and implement his system. BTW who was it that brought in Keppinger?

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 03:51 PM
Keppinger was brought in after the Royals DFA'd him. He was brought in as AAA fodder. The Reds obviously didn't see much value in him for the way he was handled this year. If they thought much of him they would have played him in the beginning of the year when he replaced Edwin. He only finally got a chance because Gonzalez was gone with his son. Pedro Lopez had been hit by a pitch, and Castro was hurt. So he may have brought in Keppinger, but I give Keppinger all the credit not Krivsky. Krivsky just got lucky with all those other instances to even see what Kepp could do.

And I'm not saying I want Krivsky fired just yet. I'm willing to give him another full year. But if this next year goes like last offseason I dont want him around for a fourth campaign.

Caveman Techie
10-11-2007, 04:49 PM
You don't give credit for good moves but you'll hound him for any of what you see as bad moves? And by the way it took Billy Beane 3 years after taking over the A's to produce a winning season and 4 years to make the playoffs. Seeing as how WK is only heading into his second offseason I'll give him a little longer than what you have stated before I call for his head.

mound_patrol
10-11-2007, 09:41 PM
You don't give credit for good moves but you'll hound him for any of what you see as bad moves? And by the way it took Billy Beane 3 years after taking over the A's to produce a winning season and 4 years to make the playoffs. Seeing as how WK is only heading into his second offseason I'll give him a little longer than what you have stated before I call for his head.

Everyone knows what moves hes made that have worked out, but yet you and others keep ignoring all the moves hes failed with.

As for Beane, he might have taken a few years to reach the playoffs but as you said he was over .500 in year 3. year 2 saw an increase in winning percentage from year one. And with Beane he had a plan, and implemented it. If Krivsky has a plan we definitly aren't seeing it being put together well. Krivsky is all over the place putting parts together. So comparing those two isnt even close.