NFL Timeout rule re:field goals

[NJReds]

Maybe I'm the only one that hates this rule where a coach can call timeout as the ball is being snapped for a last second field goal attempt, but when I first saw it this season -- I think it was the Raiders who ended up losing to Denver -- it really bugged me as borderline unsportsmanlike.

The Raiders in turn did it to Cleveland, and similarly, the kicker hits the gamewinner, it's waived off, and he misses the rekick.

Last night it didn't hurt the Cowboys (who didn't deserve to win that game anyway) when their kicker hit consecutive 53-yard gamewinners.

I'm really hoping that some coach loses a game that way (kicker misses the first and makes the second). Maybe that would stop this trend.

Question...if a coach has 3 timeouts left, can he call 3 consecutive timeouts so that you could have a kicker making four attempts?

[MaineRed]

I think a play has to be run between timeouts.

Don't believe a coach can call 3 in a row like that.

Agree it is a low thing to do. How many times are they going to let Belicheck get away with it before they stop it?

[WMR]

I think it is a rule that the NFL will change soon... perhaps as soon as after this season. Most people seem to view it as unsporting, and I agree.

[BRM]

I think it is a rule that the NFL will change soon... perhaps as soon as after this season. Most people seem to view it as unsporting, and I agree.

Jaworski said last night he expects the rule to change for next season.

[Johnny Footstool]

Why?

Shouldn't a coach be allowed to call a timeout at any point prior to any snap?

What if he notices he has 12 players on the field defending the kick? Or if he sees something that suggests a fake field goal is coming? You can't take that away from a coach just because some coaches want to ice the kicker.

Besides, it's the referee's responsibility to blow the play dead before the snap.

[NJReds]

Why?

Shouldn't a coach be allowed to call a timeout at any point prior to any snap?

What if he notices he has 12 players on the field defending the kick? Or if he sees something that suggests a fake field goal is coming? You can't take that away from a coach just because some coaches want to ice the kicker.

Besides, it's the referee's responsibility to blow the play dead before the snap.

It's not icing the kicker, though. They call it just as the ball is being snapped. As I said. I can't wait for it to backfire -- the kicker miss the first, make the second. Even though it's worked 2 of 3 times, I don't see the advantage of giving a kicker a chance to practice his kick.

The problem is that the coach can stand next to the official and tell him that he's going to take a time out. And then wait right until the snap, and call it. I think once he signals his intent, that's when the timeout should be taken. You shouldn't be able to signal your time out in advance. Then, if you want to wait until right before the snap, just call it and leave it to the officials judgement if you got the call in on time.

Shanahan said he was doing it not to ice the kicker, but to give his defense a rest. How are they getting a rest when they actually are going through the action of a play, and then having to do it again 30 second later? If that was true, he'd just call time out as the players were getting lined up.

[Blimpie]

It is no different than a basketball head coach calling a timeout just before the ref hands the ball to a free throw shooter. Is it?

[NJReds]

It is no different than a basketball head coach calling a timeout just before the ref hands the ball to a free throw shooter. Is it?

No. It would be the same if the coach called the timeout as the player started to shoot, but before the ball left his hand...and the timeout was granted and the point taken off the board.

[BRM]

It is no different than a basketball head coach calling a timeout just before the ref hands the ball to a free throw shooter. Is it?

Well, it is a little different in the NFL's case because the referee doesn't have time to stop the play. The ball is still snapped and the kicker makes the attempt. In your basketball scenario, the timeout is called before the player is ever handed the ball. For it to be similar, the timeout would have to be called while the shooter is in his shooting motion, thereby following through on his free throw attempt.

EDIT: NJReds beat me to it.

[Roy Tucker]

I'm not exactly keen on the tactic either. But I'm not exactly sure how they're going to be able to rewrite the rules to prevent it.

[WMR]

I'm not exactly keen on the tactic either. But I'm not exactly sure how they're going to be able to rewrite the rules to prevent it.

"When both teams have taken to the field and the time-out is taken in a manner that the referee judges was in an effort to disrupt the taking of the FG without any superseding concern such as 12 men on the field etc. etc., the kicking team shall be awarded a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down."

You'd need to lay out the exact instances when a late time-out in that instance would be acceptable... if there are too many men on the field etc. etc...

If you were worried about losing the ability for the defense to call time-out when they fear a fake, you could even insert the caveat that it only applies to "end-game" situations... those seem to be the situations people are most concerned with, and fakes would no longer be an issue b/c whether or not the FG is needed becomes a moot point.

[LoganBuck]

I'm not exactly keen on the tactic either. But I'm not exactly sure how they're going to be able to rewrite the rules to prevent it.

My take has been that if the defense wants to call timeout, the call must come from a player on the field. That takes care of the concern about 12 players, fakes, etc....

If the coach wants to call timeout he must get the attention of a player on the field. Who then must get the attention of the ref to call timeout.

I especially don't like it in the college game. It is one thing to do this to a paid professional, but the amateur kids don't need that sort of stuff going on. Urban Meyer pulled this at the end of the Auburn game, and it just feels icky.

[WMR]

My take has been that if the defense wants to call timeout, the call must come from a player on the field. That takes care of the concern about 12 players, fakes, etc....

If the coach wants to call timeout he must get the attention of a player on the field. Who then must get the attention of the ref to call timeout.

I especially don't like it in the college game. It is one thing to do this to a paid professional, but the amateur kids don't need that sort of stuff going on. Urban Meyer pulled this at the end of the Auburn game, and it just feels icky.

It's alright, the Auburn kicker gave it to him good after making the kick and making the "chomping" motion with his arms. :laugh:

[KronoRed]

It's alright, the Auburn kicker gave it to him good after making the kick and making the "chomping" motion with his arms. :laugh:

You mean the taunting that if a Gator player does it gets called for unsportsmanlike conduct but opposing players do it all the time and get called for nothing? ;)

I like that coaches can call time out, I don't know how else you would stop this, other then a time out must be called within 2 seconds of the team being set at the line.

[texasdave]

No. It would be the same if the coach called the timeout as the player started to shoot, but before the ball left his hand...and the timeout was granted and the point taken off the board.

I would think that situation could not occur. You cannot call a timeout when the other team is in possession of the ball, can you? I think once the shooter has the ball in his hands it would be too late for any such shenanigans.

[WMR]

You mean the taunting that if a Gator player does it gets called for unsportsmanlike conduct but opposing players do it all the time and get called for nothing? ;)

I like that coaches can call time out, I don't know how else you would stop this, other then a time out must be called within 2 seconds of the team being set at the line.

I see Gator players doing that chomping motion all the time after a big sack or something without penalty.

[LoganBuck]

It's alright, the Auburn kicker gave it to him good after making the kick and making the "chomping" motion with his arms. :laugh:

I loved that too, I was really rooting for that kid. I really didn't care who won, but that series of events made me pull for Auburn.

[WMR]

I loved that too, I was really rooting for that kid. I really didn't care who won, but that series of events made me pull for Auburn.

Hehe, I was really rooting for him too... and I must admit that I *did* care about seeing Florida lose. :D

[LoganBuck]

You mean the taunting that if a Gator player does it gets called for unsportsmanlike conduct but opposing players do it all the time and get called for nothing?

In this case the game was over. I hate the taunting, in general, it should not be allowed at all in the college game.

[KronoRed]

I see Gator players doing that chomping motion all the time after a big sack or something without penalty.

Not so much this year, called twice in that game alone

[NJReds]

I would think that situation could not occur. You cannot call a timeout when the other team is in possession of the ball, can you? I think once the shooter has the ball in his hands it would be too late for any such shenanigans.

In that respect you can't really compare it to basketball. In football, the center has the ball, everyone is lined up, and then the timeout occurs.

[Sea Ray]

I'm not exactly keen on the tactic either. But I'm not exactly sure how they're going to be able to rewrite the rules to prevent it.

I agree with Roy. I don't see a way to prevent it. If you say a player on the field has to call it fine. Assign a defensive player to call the TO right before the snap. That won't change anything. The officials can't get into mind reading as to why a team is calling a TO.

The rules on TOs have been the same for decades. Don't screw with them now.

I bet the NFL will screw with the rules. They have a habit of that. We could start a new thread on all their idiotic rules.

[Unassisted]

I don't like the trend either and I agree that the NFL will change it ASAP. I wonder if it will be outlawed at the college and high school levels that quickly.

[TeamSelig]

It should have to be used before it is hiked. No timeouts "right as he hikes it" or anything borderline.

I like the 'icing' the kicker and forcing him to wait out a time out to think about how much pressure is on the line, but non of this time out as soon as it is hiked bullcrap.

[Chip R]

It should have to be used before it is hiked. No timeouts "right as he hikes it" or anything borderline.

I like the 'icing' the kicker and forcing him to wait out a time out to think about how much pressure is on the line, but non of this time out as soon as it is hiked bullcrap.


Problem with that is then a QB can't call time out if he looks at the defense and doesn't like what he sees or he's going to get a delay penalty. Just because a team is in place kick formation doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a field goal attempt.

[NJReds]

The rules on TOs have been the same for decades. Don't screw with them now.

Have they been. This seems to be a relatively new trend. I don't ever recall three times in one season where winning field goals were waived off and taken over again, and this was only Week 5.

I don't think the coach should be able to stand next to the official and say "I'm going to call a time out ... (waits) (waits) ... NOW NOW NOW"

Either you call a time out or you don't.

[texasdave]

Question...if a coach has 3 timeouts left, can he call 3 consecutive timeouts so that you could have a kicker making four attempts?

According to NFL rules an opposing coach can call consecutive timeouts.

http://www.supernfl.com/NFLRules.html



9. Consecutive team time outs can be taken by opposing teams but the length of the second time out will be reduced to 40 seconds.

[Chip R]

Have they been. This seems to be a relatively new trend. I don't ever recall three times in one season where winning field goals were waived off and taken over again, and this was only Week 5.

I don't think the coach should be able to stand next to the official and say "I'm going to call a time out ... (waits) (waits) ... NOW NOW NOW"

Either you call a time out or you don't.


I think one coach figured it out recently and the rest copied him.

[Sea Ray]

Have they been. This seems to be a relatively new trend. I don't ever recall three times in one season where winning field goals were waived off and taken over again, and this was only Week 5.

I don't think the coach should be able to stand next to the official and say "I'm going to call a time out ... (waits) (waits) ... NOW NOW NOW"

Either you call a time out or you don't.

The only recent change in these rules is that a head coach is allowed to call a TO from the sidelines. But the rule has always been that a TO can be called anytime right up to the moment before the snap.

[Boss-Hog]

According to NFL rules an opposing coach can call consecutive timeouts.

http://www.supernfl.com/NFLRules.html
The key word there is "opposing" - the same team cannot call consecutive timeouts without a play occurring.

FWIW, I also can't stand seeing this being used the way it is.

[Yachtzee]

Why?

Shouldn't a coach be allowed to call a timeout at any point prior to any snap?

What if he notices he has 12 players on the field defending the kick? Or if he sees something that suggests a fake field goal is coming? You can't take that away from a coach just because some coaches want to ice the kicker.

Besides, it's the referee's responsibility to blow the play dead before the snap.

My concern is that the way it's being used, the coaches stand next to the ref and call timeout quietly, the opposing team can't see it and deal with it until they hear a whistle come out of nowhere. At least if you require it to be called on the field by a player, the player has to yell and gesture to get the ref's attention. The other team sees it and can react. Not so much with the coach on the sideline. My concern would be that the time out is called, the whistle blows as the ball is snapped and the kicker tries to stop mid-kick and ends up planting his foot wrong and tearing something. In that way I find it unfair and potentially dangerous. Kickers should have fair warning that the timeout is coming.

[paintmered]

My concern is that the way it's being used, the coaches stand next to the ref and call timeout quietly, the opposing team can't see it and deal with it until they hear a whistle come out of nowhere. At least if you require it to be called on the field by a player, the player has to yell and gesture to get the ref's attention. The other team sees it and can react. Not so much with the coach on the sideline. My concern would be that the time out is called, the whistle blows as the ball is snapped and the kicker tries to stop mid-kick and ends up planting his foot wrong and tearing something. In that way I find it unfair and potentially dangerous. Kickers should have fair warning that the timeout is coming.

Yep, it's like this in the college game as well. The way to fix it is to have the time out called on the field, not from the sideline, as you mentioned.

I think the rule change will be made both by the NFL and the NCAA this offseason.

[MaineRed]

Problem with that is then a QB can't call time out if he looks at the defense and doesn't like what he sees or he's going to get a delay penalty. Just because a team is in place kick formation doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a field goal attempt.

:confused:

[texasdave]

The key word there is "opposing" - the same team cannot call consecutive timeouts without a play occurring.

FWIW, I also can't stand seeing this being used the way it is.

I stand corrected. I simply read the rule incorrectly. =(

[Chip R]

:confused:

Ever hear of a fake field goal?

[Blimpie]

I think one coach figured it out recently and the rest copied him.Yep. I think Mike Shanahan is being given "credit/criticism" for that...

[MaineRed]

Ever hear of a fake field goal?

Yeah, I've heard of a fake field goal. What I was confused about is what it has to do with this thread.

Here is the post you were responding to:


It should have to be used before it is hiked. No timeouts "right as he hikes it" or anything borderline.

I like the 'icing' the kicker and forcing him to wait out a time out to think about how much pressure is on the line, but non of this time out as soon as it is hiked bullcrap.

Could you point out what it is about this post that sent you rambling on about QBs, fake field goals, etc, etc. Nowhere does it say the team with the ball shouldn't be allowed to call timeout.

All he said was that timeouts should be called BEFORE the ball is snapped. What in the world does this have to do with fake field goals?

Still :confused:.

[Chip R]

Yeah, I've heard of a fake field goal. What I was confused about is what it has to do with this thread.

Here is the post you were responding to:



Could you point out what it is about this post that sent you rambling on about QBs, fake field goals, etc, etc. Nowhere does it say the team with the ball shouldn't be allowed to call timeout.

All he said was that timeouts should be called BEFORE the ball is snapped. What in the world does this have to do with fake field goals?

Still :confused:.


I'm not sure why you are confused. Perhaps I should use smaller words.

[MaineRed]

I'm confused because your post has nothing to do with the post that you responded to. It makes less sense then when you were claiming the Patriots moved up in the draft as a reward for videotaping the Jets.

Nobody said ban timeouts. Nobody said take away the QBs right to call a timeout. The issue is over the coach standing on the sideline next to the ref and yelling timeout at the same time the ball is being snapped.

Where did anyone lay out a situation where a QB would not be allowed to call a timeout if he saw a defense he didn't like? And use small words to do it if need be.

[Chip R]

I'm confused because your post has nothing to do with the post that you responded to. It makes less sense then when you were claiming the Patriots moved up in the draft as a reward for videotaping the Jets.

Nobody said ban timeouts. Nobody said take away the QBs right to call a timeout. The issue is over the coach standing on the sideline next to the ref and yelling timeout at the same time the ball is being snapped.

Where did anyone lay out a situation where a QB would not be allowed to call a timeout if he saw a defense he didn't like? And use small words to do it if need be.

What my point was was that you can't distinguish between a kicking situation and a regular play in the rules because you can't assume that. TS said it shouldn't be used right as they hike it. Taking that to it's logical extention, a QB cannot call a time out right before the snap.

I'm all for having the players call time out and not the coaches. All in all, though, I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than this.

[RedsManRick]

Why not just make it something like: the defense cannot call a timeout with less than 5 seconds on the play clock. If you want to ice him, fine, do it. But if it gets to 5 seconds on the clock, the offense gets to run their play if they so choose.

In basketball, only the offense can call timeouts to prevent this type of thing. In baseball there are no clocks and if a batter steps out of the box, it is the umpire's judgment whether or not he gets time. In hockey and soccer, there are no timeouts. The notion of the defense interrupting the game is fairly unique to football.

[LoganBuck]

Why not just make it something like: the defense cannot call a timeout with less than 5 seconds on the play clock. If you want to ice him, fine, do it. But if it gets to 5 seconds on the clock, the offense gets to run their play if they so choose.

In basketball, only the offense can call timeouts to prevent this type of thing. In baseball there are no clocks and if a batter steps out of the box, it is the umpire's judgment whether or not he gets time. In hockey and soccer, there are no timeouts. The notion of the defense interrupting the game is fairly unique to football.

I have seen timeouts called by the defense in order to have a chance at a return should the kick be converted in a game ending situation.

[Roy Tucker]

Why not just make it something like: the defense cannot call a timeout with less than 5 seconds on the play clock. If you want to ice him, fine, do it. But if it gets to 5 seconds on the clock, the offense gets to run their play if they so choose.

In basketball, only the offense can call timeouts to prevent this type of thing. In baseball there are no clocks and if a batter steps out of the box, it is the umpire's judgment whether or not he gets time. In hockey and soccer, there are no timeouts. The notion of the defense interrupting the game is fairly unique to football.

The problem with that 5 second rule is that it can't be predicted with any great accuracy just exactly when the offense will snap the ball with relation to the 30 second clock. The offense can snap the ball way before there is 5 seconds left on the 30 second clock.

And often times, teams call TOs with less than 5 seconds on the clock because their formations/personnel isn't right for what the situation is (like a defense realizing at the last second that an apparent FG attempt is a fake). Which has been a legitimate thing to do for as long as I can remember.

I just don't know how they're going to eliminate this ploy without causing even bigger problems. Taking away the TO from coaches will cause a great outcry. Although that is a relatively new thing.

[Danny Serafini]

This isn't really that hard to stop. Simple rule change, in the final two minutes the referee at his discretion can deny a coach a time out at the snap of a field goal attempt. You can still ice the kicker, you'll just have to call the time out a few seconds earlier. Coaches won't take the chance monkeying around with hitting the exact right second if they know they may not get their time out.

[TeamSelig]

What my point was was that you can't distinguish between a kicking situation and a regular play in the rules because you can't assume that. TS said it shouldn't be used right as they hike it. Taking that to it's logical extention, a QB cannot call a time out right before the snap.

I'm all for having the players call time out and not the coaches. All in all, though, I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than this.

I have to agree with Maine, your post really didn't make sense. I was just too lazy to reply the other day. I get what you are saying now, but the QB is the one who calls for the hike so why wouldn't he be allowed to use a time out before the snap?

[Chip R]

I have to agree with Maine, your post really didn't make sense. I was just too lazy to reply the other day. I get what you are saying now, but the QB is the one who calls for the hike so why wouldn't he be allowed to use a time out before the snap?


I'm not saying he shouldn't. But if you restrict a team from calling a time out right before the ball is hiked, you restrict a QB from going up to the line and looking at the defense and calling a time out rather than run a play.

What you guys are looking at is just the defense shouldn't be able to call the time out but unless you specify in the rules between offense and defense, you run into that kind of situation.

[NJReds]

I guess the fact that this occured on national TV has raised the profile of this issue:

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-10-10-0092.html (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTkmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcyMDU4MTMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2)

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTkmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcyMDU4MTMmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2

[Chip R]

Now they aren't calling time out during the play, right? They are calling it right before the snap, correct?

[MaineRed]

See Chip, even the person who you were responding to had no idea what you were talking about.

I guess your expansive dictionary wasn't the issue.

[Chip R]

See Chip, even the person who you were responding to had no idea what you were talking about.

I guess your expansive dictionary wasn't the issue.


Well, he actually figured it out. So I guess there's someone smarter than you around here.

[RedsManRick]

The problem with that 5 second rule is that it can't be predicted with any great accuracy just exactly when the offense will snap the ball with relation to the 30 second clock. The offense can snap the ball way before there is 5 seconds left on the 30 second clock.

Absolutely. The logic goes that an offense should have the option of running the play clock under 5 seconds to avoid the possibility of a last-second interruption if they so choose.


And often times, teams call TOs with less than 5 seconds on the clock because their formations/personnel isn't right for what the situation is (like a defense realizing at the last second that an apparent FG attempt is a fake). Which has been a legitimate thing to do for as long as I can remember.

Yup. Frankly, (and I know this is begging for disagreement) I don't see the need to give the defense a free pass at fixing their personnel mistakes. They have the vast majority of the play clock to get it right. At 5 seconds, it's too late to sub a guy in, why should you get a get-out-of-jail free card? Imagine in basketball if towards the end of a half, the offense gets a guy wide open on the wing and right before he takes that wide open 3, the defense was able to call a timeout because they were out of position? Or in hockey, an untimely lineshift leaves the other team with a 3 on 1, so the team shift calls a time out. Crazy!


I just don't know how they're going to eliminate this ploy without causing even bigger problems. Taking away the TO from coaches will cause a great outcry. Although that is a relatively new thing.

At the end of the day, I think this is right. It's currently overblown because it has hurt a few teams. But as soon as a team does this and turns a missed FG in to a made one, the practice will die down. The change I proposed is largely because I don't mind the side effects, but I know most others would not want to make such a drastic change.

[MaineRed]

Well, he actually figured it out. So I guess there's someone smarter than you around here.

If he figured it out he wouldn't have followed up with a "but" and a question.

We can agree on one thing, it is going to take someone a lot smarter than me to understand your twisted take on the world of football.

[Chip R]

If he figured it out he wouldn't have followed up with a "but" and a question.

We can agree on one thing, it is going to take someone a lot smarter than me to understand your twisted take on the world of football.


Nothing wrong with my takes. Just cause you can't figure it out and want to be a jerk about it doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't understand.

[Jaycint]

First of all I can't stand the rat face, err I mean Mike Shanahan, so this take may be a little biased. But I personally would do cartwheels down my driveway if this type of "sportsmanship" cost his team a playoff birth. I know he's not the only one that's done it this year but I was watching the Oakland /Denver game so it sticks out for me.

I hope in their last game of the season with a playoff berth on the line that some other coach does this to Elam or that Shanahan tries to do it to the other kicker and they miss the first attempt and drill the second one.

I think at it's very core it violates the spirit of the rules of fair competition. Sure it isn't in the rulebook but in my opinion it's about as close to crossing the line into cheating as you can come. A team works hard by making plays ON THE FIELD to drive down and get in position to win a ballgame only to have that opportunity disrupted, not by an opposing player on the field during live action, but by a coach standing over on the sideline. Just doesn't seem right to me.

[bucksfan2]

My $.02. No coach should be allowed to call time out. It should have to come from the field of play. I don't like it in basketball when a coach can call time out and really dislike it in football when a coach calls time out. If a player on the field wants to take himself out of allignment and risk calling a time out before the ball is snapped well then good for him. But a coach should no way be allowed to call time out at all, especially in a game winning situation.