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Matt700wlw
10-10-2007, 06:44 PM
Maybe this should go somewhere else....or maybe we should have a thread for managerial search updates...

I don't know. Not my call :cool:

Mods..do your thing :D






Managerial search update

With Tony LaRussa's decision potentially weeks away, would the Reds be willing to delay their managerial decision that long to see if he's available?

Neither GM Wayne Krivsky nor CEO Bob Castellini would put a timetable on the hiring Wednesday.

"We're going through the process," Krivsky said from the team's facility in the Sarasota, where he's attending the club's organizational meetings.

Krivsky did say he has not talked to interim manager Pete Mackanin any further, and declined to say name names as far as outside candidates.

The Reds have spoken to at least one minority candidate, as is mandated by Major League Baseball.

If the Reds go outside for the hire, it's likely to be someone with major league experience. The club is known to have interest in Joe Girardi and Bob Brenly.

Girardi's agent, Steve Mandrell, would not comment Wednesday. Brenly confirmed his interest in the job in September.

The big-name minority candidate who's available is Dusty Baker, the former Chicago Cub and San Francisco Giant manager. Baker is working as an analyst for ESPN. His agent, Greg Genske, did not return a call Wednesday.

-Fay


Dusty Baker: Lord help us all :explode:

Unassisted
10-10-2007, 07:10 PM
Knowing that the commissioner's office puts a lid on hiring announcements until after the WS, we shouldn't be sitting around with bated breath waiting for any news on this.

Maybe we can all hope that with the demands of his ESPN analysis gig, Dusty will be far too busy to interview? ;)

Chip R
10-10-2007, 07:46 PM
Knowing that the commissioner's office puts a lid on hiring announcements until after the WS, we shouldn't be sitting around with bated breath waiting for any news on this.


You're right. I don't know what the punishment is for teams who jump the gun on these announcements but if I were running a team, I'd say screw that and hire someone ASAP. If they fined the team, I'd pay it.



Maybe we can all hope that with the demands of his ESPN analysis gig, Dusty will be far too busy to interview? ;)

We can only hope. But I think Big Dust is through now and Joe Morgan's taking over since I heard them sign off the other night coming home from work. I don't know if he's doing any in studio work for ESPN TV though. So there's that.

Cedric
10-10-2007, 08:05 PM
Hopefully Dusty has learned his lessons if he get's the gig. I didn't have a major problem with the other aspects of his work. The pitching part is big enough for me to hope the Reds stay FAR away. But he can lead a team. Maybe all the heat he takes for Prior, Wood, and others would change him. Who knows?

Sea Ray
10-10-2007, 08:20 PM
Knowing that the commissioner's office puts a lid on hiring announcements until after the WS, we shouldn't be sitting around with bated breath waiting for any news on this.

Maybe we can all hope that with the demands of his ESPN analysis gig, Dusty will be far too busy to interview? ;)


The after the WS thing isn't that big a deal anymore. With the post season going 'till November and the realization that you can't keep a lid on these things, they do accept and acknowledge that hirings will be announced while baseball is still being played. They do prefer you pick an off day.

redsmetz
10-10-2007, 08:37 PM
The after the WS thing isn't that big a deal anymore. With the post season going 'till November and the realization that you can't keep a lid on these things, they do accept and acknowledge that hirings will be announced while baseball is still being played. They do prefer you pick an off day.

That's what I was thinking. It seems to me several moves were announced last year.

NJReds
10-11-2007, 10:23 AM
Has Bobby Valentine's name surfaced yet? I wouldn't mind seeing him lead the Reds next year.

Puffy
10-11-2007, 10:56 AM
Brenly - yuck.
Baker - yuck.

Ugh.

Unassisted
10-11-2007, 11:09 AM
Has Bobby Valentine's name surfaced yet? I wouldn't mind seeing him lead the Reds next year.He's managing a team in Japan. The Japanese baseball season appears to be still underway (http://www.japanesebaseball.com/index.jsp).

If he's under contract to the team there, would the Reds have to pay millions to his current team for the rights to negotiate? If so, then no thanks.

Roy Tucker
10-11-2007, 11:16 AM
I guess this is how Krivsky plays the press, but when the Reds say "we have no schedule", that's a lot of bunk.

What they mean is "we have a schedule, but we aren't going to tell you anything". If they don't have a prioritized list of candidates, potential timelines for them, and the likelihood of each of those timelines playing out all plotted, then they are bozos.

WK and BCast just play their cards extremely close to the vest.

Chip R
10-11-2007, 11:26 AM
Brenly - yuck.
Baker - yuck.

Ugh.


We could get Joe Randa back for you.

KronoRed
10-11-2007, 02:16 PM
Brenly - yuck.
Baker - yuck.

Ugh.

Girardi - yuck.

Unassisted
10-11-2007, 03:14 PM
nm, this (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/710110399/1062/SPT) was the same article as the OP.

Danny Serafini
10-11-2007, 03:38 PM
Lets just hope this (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110030/-1/NLETTER06) is nothing more than idle speculation, because the thought of Dusty Baker coming to town scares me.

BRM
10-11-2007, 03:40 PM
Lets just hope this (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110030/-1/NLETTER06) is nothing more than idle speculation, because the thought of Dusty Baker coming to town scares me.

Probably scares Harang and Arroyo as well.

RedsFan75
10-11-2007, 03:43 PM
Lets just hope this (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110030/-1/NLETTER06) is nothing more than idle speculation, because the thought of Dusty Baker coming to town scares me.

Me Too.

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 03:44 PM
If Baker is hired, I say we start a "save Homer Bailey('s arm)" protest and raise a ruckus.

Roy Tucker
10-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Lets just hope this (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110030/-1/NLETTER06) is nothing more than idle speculation, because the thought of Dusty Baker coming to town scares me.

Holy cats. :eek:

Jeez oh Pete. Gah.

Wheelhouse
10-11-2007, 03:49 PM
No way is Baker being hired. It's just asking to lose 100 games. Why would the Reds hire a manager the Cubs recently fired because of a 66-96 record?

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 03:55 PM
I have this sneaking suspicion that the only skill of some major league managers is the ability to convince upper management that they are the right man for the job.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:04 PM
I'm going to buy tissues and ice packs tonight just in case....


..and I may pick up an apartment guide...

redsfan30
10-11-2007, 04:08 PM
Wow.

Not sure what to think about this...

guttle11
10-11-2007, 04:09 PM
No.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:12 PM
An ego enabler, who can't handle a pitching staff, who likes veterans over young players, and arguably wrecked the career of 2 of the most promisiing young pitchers in recent years...

Am I missing something?



The only thing that looks good is his managerial record - has only finished below second place 4 times...the fourth being his last stint as a manager....has been to a world series, and has a .527 winnig percentage.



Not enough good to outweigh the bad for me....

redsfan30
10-11-2007, 04:13 PM
Good lord, this board will go into meltdown.....

bucksfan2
10-11-2007, 04:15 PM
I never understoond the lure of Dusty Baker. He was good with SF but how much of that can you contribute to having two year in year out MVP candidates in Kent and Bonds. Then he went to chicago and killed the pitching staff. I just dont see how Baker and Krivsky would get along considering Krivsky likes to baby his prospects while Baker abuses his.

redsfan30
10-11-2007, 04:18 PM
Would this be a precursor to trading off young guys like Votto, Encarnacion and others?

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:21 PM
Would this be a precursor to trading off young guys like Votto, Encarnacion and others?

If that's the case, Krivsky better watch his back....he won't survive the season....and neither will his pitching staff

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:24 PM
I'm about to jump on the "Bring Back Mackanin" bandwagon if this is the only other alternative...

dougdirt
10-11-2007, 04:26 PM
I'm about to jump on the "Bring Back Mackanin" bandwagon if this is the only other alternative...

Me and you both. I seriously will buy FireDustyBaker.com the night he is hired, if he is hired as the Reds manager.

pahster
10-11-2007, 04:27 PM
Baker... :barf:

Heath
10-11-2007, 04:31 PM
Found in another thread.........


I swear, if it's Dusty Baker I'll start taking hostages.

I'm thinking about applying as the job of "Wingman".

RedsFan75
10-11-2007, 04:31 PM
That might be the one thing that would cause me to watch other teams.

Heath
10-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Scratch your head at this combo

Dusty Baker - Reds Manager
Dave Duncan - Reds Pitching Coach.


:dunno:

RichRed
10-11-2007, 04:39 PM
The guy thinks high OBP means "clogging up the bases."

No freaking thanks.

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2007, 04:39 PM
Please tell me it is not Baker. We might as well get Homer Bailey ready for the disabled list if Baker is hired.

RFS62
10-11-2007, 04:44 PM
Dusty Baker is a great hitting instructor.

Dusty Baker is a killer of pitching staffs.

Just say no.

Roy Tucker
10-11-2007, 04:44 PM
Hopefully, this is just Scoop adding two and two and getting five.

His connecting-the-dots can sometimes be a little off.

Heath
10-11-2007, 04:46 PM
Hopefully, this is just Scoop adding two and two and getting five.

His connecting-the-dots can sometimes be a little off.


The voice of reason speaks. John Fay's not the greatest forecaster.

Still scary, nonetheless.

*however, I can see the spin now-proven winner, knows how to play the game, been in the world series, owns 12,000 toothpicks

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:48 PM
*however, I can see the spin now-proven winner, knows how to play the game, been in the world series, owns 12,000 toothpicks


I already supplied the good....it's not enough for me :)

Always Red
10-11-2007, 04:49 PM
Dusty Baker is a great hitting instructor.

Dusty Baker is a killer of pitching staffs.

Just say no.

That thud I just heard was Aaron Harang's arm falling off in sheer terror of what the future might hold... :eek:

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:50 PM
There's no saying that Dusty coudn't win me over...because anybody can...

However, if Dusty is still Dusty, I don't see how it'd be possible....



Ok, winning may do it....but again, if Dusty is still Dusty, how is that possible?

wheels
10-11-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm used to disliking Reds managers, but this is taking it to a whole new level.

Unassisted
10-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Hopefully, this is just Scoop adding two and two and getting five.

His connecting-the-dots can sometimes be a little off.That's along the lines of what I thought, too. Just because this is the only interview a reporter finds out about doesn't mean it's the only interview that's being conducted.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 04:53 PM
That's along the lines of what I thought, too. Just because this is the only interview a reporter finds out about doesn't mean it's the only interview that's being conducted.

True..but it's the first real sign of an acual living, breathing human being in consideration...instead of just "GM speak"

Hopefully, it's nothing more than fufilling the requirements of Major League Baseball in interviewing minority candidates.

However, if there really wasn't interest in Dusty, why would you bring in a guy of his name calibre as your minority candidate?

westofyou
10-11-2007, 04:55 PM
Dusty Baker is too much of grandstander and excuse maker for my taste, not to mention his tendency to manage like he's in Dodger Stadium in the 70's. The only thing that he sells that others don't is his ability to handle larger then life characters, well in a year (or less) the Reds won't need to worry about that.

They'll always have to worry about arms in that park, thus just walk away from the long shot who has no chance of saving those same arms.

Johnny Footstool
10-11-2007, 04:56 PM
I'd be more concerned for Bailey and Cueto than Harang. Arroyo has also shown a propensity to wear down with overuse.

But I think this is just idle speculation, anyway.

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2007, 04:57 PM
This is from another article about Baker from the Chicago Tribune last weekend:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-071006mcgrathbrite,1,3508199.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines


Baker and his family recently left their longtime suburban San Francisco home and moved into a home they built northeast of Sacramento. Now 58, he hasn't ruled out a return to baseball, but he's enjoying his ESPN duties and will work as a "Baseball Tonight" studio panelist during the league championship series and the World Series.

"Life is good," Baker said. "I'm doing fine."


Hopefully Baker stays happy and stays where he is at ESPN.

redsmetz
10-11-2007, 04:58 PM
Out of curiousity, what do folks think of his record in San Francisco with their pitching staff? He seems to have had some success and I understand that could just be the difference in the park (Candlestick was fairly 'pitcher friendly', no?). Is it possible that he just happened to have some of the most fragile arms ever in Prior and Wood?

RFS62
10-11-2007, 04:58 PM
One thing we know, he wouldn't be cheap. And if they're willing to consider paying his going rate, maybe it's not just lip service that they're considering big name managers.

dougdirt
10-11-2007, 05:02 PM
But how many 'big name' managers are actually good managers?

westofyou
10-11-2007, 05:03 PM
Out of curiousity, what do folks think of his record in San Francisco with their pitching staff? He seems to have had some success and I understand that could just be the difference in the park (Candlestick was fairly 'pitcher friendly', no?). Is it possible that he just happened to have some of the most fragile arms ever in Prior and Wood?

My opinion of Dusty is based solely on SF, he inherited some good hurlers from Craig and company and had a strong BP. They went out and got him Schmidt... who might be experiencing some of the Karma in volve din pitching for Dusty as we type.


SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS
CAREER
AN FRANCISCO GIANTS
CAREER
1993-2002

INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria

ERA ERA IP
1 Robb Nen 2.43 378.1
2 Mike Jackson 2.48 119.2
3 Tim Worrell 2.87 150.1
4 Felix Rodriguez 3.00 297.1
5 Bill Swift 3.00 342
6 Rod Beck 3.19 318.2
7 Jason Schmidt 3.43 251.2
8 Chad Zerbe 3.46 101.1
9 John Burkett 3.64 391
10 John Johnstone 3.68 222.1
11 Trevor Wilson 3.74 192.2
12 Bud Black 3.89 148
13 Mark Dewey 3.91 115
14 Rich Rodriguez 3.98 187.2
15 Russ Ortiz 4.01 924.2
16 Mark Portugal 4.03 241.1
17 Kirk Rueter 4.08 1169.1
18 Shawn Estes 4.25 990
19 Jeff Brantley 4.28 113.2
20 Julian Tavarez 4.34 228.1
21 Mark Leiter 4.38 331
22 Orel Hershiser 4.41 202
23 Livan Hernandez 4.44 746.1
24 Dave Burba 4.44 212.2
25 Ryan Jensen 4.46 214
26 William Van Landingham 4.54 477.1
27 Allen Watson 4.61 185.2
28 Joe Nathan 4.61 187.1
29 Aaron Fultz 4.66 181.2
30 Osvaldo Fernandez 4.70 228

dougdirt
10-11-2007, 05:05 PM
http://www.firedustybaker.com/nucleus/media/2/20050509-dusty.JPG

Courtesy of firedustybaker.com

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 05:08 PM
Perhaps RZ should fire up the "emails to the front office" campagin in a preemptive protest against Baker? Why wait till he is hired to go sub-critical tatical nuke?

Some well thought out, and well written emails/letters/phone calls might perk up some ears at the Reds FO if they are serriously considering Baker.

lollipopcurve
10-11-2007, 05:15 PM
The importance of pitch limits has become more evident over time. I figure Baker would get it by now.

Big name, good track record. Folks clamoring for that kind of thing should like the choice, I figure.

I'd be on the fence. I like him as a guy who commands respect, but I don't know that he'd handle the young guys well, and the Reds are going to be relying on youth a lot over the next few years.

redsmetz
10-11-2007, 05:17 PM
My opinion of Dusty is based solely on SF, he inherited some good hurlers from Craig and company and had a strong BP. They went out and got him Schmidt... who might be experiencing some of the Karma in volve din pitching for Dusty as we type.


SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS
CAREER
AN FRANCISCO GIANTS
CAREER
1993-2002

INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria

ERA ERA IP
1 Robb Nen 2.43 378.1
2 Mike Jackson 2.48 119.2
3 Tim Worrell 2.87 150.1
4 Felix Rodriguez 3.00 297.1
5 Bill Swift 3.00 342
6 Rod Beck 3.19 318.2
7 Jason Schmidt 3.43 251.2
8 Chad Zerbe 3.46 101.1
9 John Burkett 3.64 391
10 John Johnstone 3.68 222.1
11 Trevor Wilson 3.74 192.2
12 Bud Black 3.89 148
13 Mark Dewey 3.91 115
14 Rich Rodriguez 3.98 187.2
15 Russ Ortiz 4.01 924.2
16 Mark Portugal 4.03 241.1
17 Kirk Rueter 4.08 1169.1
18 Shawn Estes 4.25 990
19 Jeff Brantley 4.28 113.2
20 Julian Tavarez 4.34 228.1
21 Mark Leiter 4.38 331
22 Orel Hershiser 4.41 202
23 Livan Hernandez 4.44 746.1
24 Dave Burba 4.44 212.2
25 Ryan Jensen 4.46 214
26 William Van Landingham 4.54 477.1
27 Allen Watson 4.61 185.2
28 Joe Nathan 4.61 187.1
29 Aaron Fultz 4.66 181.2
30 Osvaldo Fernandez 4.70 228



It must be late in the day and I'm being thick, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the point of the chart - many of the ERA's seem reasonable and only Krueter pitched a ton (I'm guessing he was there the entire tenure).

westofyou
10-11-2007, 05:21 PM
Well, it's pretty relief pitcher heavy with most of the other guys fitting the same pattern, soft stuff and fly balls.. which is great in the Bay Area, especially at Candlestick. But I think his leaning on the BP was his saving grace in SF, and most of the starters were products of the Craig regime, hence why so many burned out to (forkball)

However Dusty and the Giants had their best years in ERA In Pac Bell and with the Craig leftovers.


SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS
SEASON
1993-2002


ERA YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Giants 2002 0.56 3.55 4.11
2 Giants 2000 0.42 4.21 4.64
3 Giants 1993 0.42 3.63 4.05
4 Giants 1994 0.23 3.99 4.22
5 Giants 2001 0.17 4.19 4.36
6 Giants 1998 0.05 4.19 4.24
7 Giants 1999 -.14 4.71 4.57
8 Giants 1997 -.22 4.43 4.21
9 Giants 1996 -.50 4.72 4.22
10 Giants 1995 -.68 4.86 4.18

KronoRed
10-11-2007, 05:28 PM
I'd rather have Bob Boone back

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 05:31 PM
I like that Dusty gets his players to hate the rest of MLB. That wouldn't be such a bad thing to have around. Still, why waste money on such an insignificant piece of the puzzle.

Unassisted
10-11-2007, 05:34 PM
However, if there really wasn't interest in Dusty, why would you bring in a guy of his name calibre as your minority candidate?

Maybe he applied for the job? With his experience and slightly over .500 record, it would be tough to justify not interviewing him when Bud's office called the Reds to ask "Why didn't you...?"

Obviously, a lot of people are fearing the fire from the smoke that John Fay saw. I'm content to believe it was just the smoke from Dusty's cigar. The smoke cleared when he stubbed it out in the CVG airport ashtray and flew back home.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 05:41 PM
Maybe he applied for the job? With his experience and slightly over .500 record, it would be tough to justify not interviewing him when Bud's office called the Reds to ask "Why didn't you...?"

Obviously, a lot of people are fearing the fire from the smoke that John Fay saw. I'm content to believe it was just the smoke from Dusty's cigar. The smoke cleared when he stubbed it out in the CVG airport ashtray and flew back home.

Hopefully it is just smoke....I think the reason I'm worried, because this isn't the first time I've heard his name mentioned by people with a foot in the door ...off the record (I think I made reference to it in the final game thread, whether I should have or not is another story :)). When I heard it then, I shook my head in fear.

....This is the first of it being made public as far as I know.

Chip R
10-11-2007, 05:45 PM
I'd be less worried if "Scoop" McCoy wrote the story.

M2
10-11-2007, 06:00 PM
Put me down as pro-Dusty. Do I think he'd do a good job with the Reds? Not really, but probably only someone who can be successfully non-standard would be able to spur the team to a winning record. Yet the main reason why I'm pro-Dusty is because the complaining about him around here would be spectacular.

Strikes Out Looking
10-11-2007, 06:03 PM
Put me down as pro-Dusty. Do I think he'd do a good job with the Reds? Not really, but probably only someone who can be successfully non-standard would be able to spur the team to a winning record. Yet the main reason why I'm pro-Dusty is because the complaining about him around here would be spectacular.

I wouldn't be around here complaining, I would switch my interest to another team until he's gone. It would be too much like sitting in a hospital waiting for someone to die.

M2
10-11-2007, 06:06 PM
I wouldn't be around here complaining, I would switch my interest to another team until he's gone. It would be too much like sitting in a hospital waiting for someone to die.

And how would that different from the past seven seasons? Face it, we're hospice fans.

RFS62
10-11-2007, 06:06 PM
...the complaining about him around here would be spectacular.


Boy, howdy.

But it just occurred to me... we could go around shrieking "Leave Dusty ALONE!!!!!"

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 06:07 PM
New items would become available at the Reds gift shop...

Sweat bands and toothpick holders

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 06:08 PM
Someone put the life-squad in NJ on stand-by. Edabbs might hemmorage.

:)

westofyou
10-11-2007, 06:11 PM
I wouldn't be around here complaining, I would switch my interest to another team until he's gone. It would be too much like sitting in a hospital waiting for someone to die.
Easier said then done.

It's the Reds, not your underpants.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 06:12 PM
Easier said then done.

It's the Reds, not your underpants.

Who says he switches those?





;)

Strikes Out Looking
10-11-2007, 06:15 PM
Easier said then done.

It's the Reds, not your underpants.

The past few years have possibly made it easier. I'm just hoping they don't do such a stupid, stupid thing.

By the way, I like to go commando. :D

M2
10-11-2007, 06:18 PM
The past few years have possibly made it easier. I'm just hoping they don't do such a stupid, stupid thing.

After the well-meaning anachronism of Jerry Narron, the impotent bravado of Bob Boone and the gross incompetence of Dave Miley, I'm impressed that you can still be offended.

My view is if I survived Miley, then Schottzie III could manage the team and I'd be able to survive it.

Heath
10-11-2007, 06:18 PM
The past few years have possibly made it easier. I'm just hoping they don't do such a stupid, stupid thing.

By the way, I like to go commando. :D

We like traffic at RZ here and that's NOT the way to do it.

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 06:20 PM
It's the Reds, not your underpants.

Change your underpants....hummm...interesting concept. When did this 'changing' business start?

Marc D
10-11-2007, 06:36 PM
I could never bring myself to root for another team but if they hired Baker I would honestly have to emotionally distance myself from this trainwreck of a franchise. It would be the point of no return for me as far as losing what little faith I have in yet another FO.

MartyFan
10-11-2007, 06:50 PM
Baker is supposedly the front runner now. (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7323872)

redsmetz
10-11-2007, 06:52 PM
For me, they're the Reds. They're my team, they're who I root for. If it's Baker, fine. The world will go on. There's no other team for me to root for. I do not want my Grandma coming back to haunt me!

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 06:56 PM
Dusty Baker is a full-blown idiot.

If Dusty Baker is hired, then it will become clear that both Bob Castellini and Wayne Krivsky are also full-blown idiots. It's likely that at least three of Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto will be heading over to the Prior/Wood Fate Path. The best way to ensure that a lousy pitching staff remains lousy is to hire an incompetent idiot who doesn't know how to take care of a pitching staff.

Hello DL visits and a consistent high team ERA.

gm
10-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Next Red's manager...Tony LaRussa or Dusty Baker?

Let's see, would I prefer death by lethal injection or carbon monoxide poisoning?

Tom Servo
10-11-2007, 07:19 PM
Next Red's manager...Tony LaRussa or Dusty Baker?

Let's see, would I prefer death by lethal injection or carbon monoxide poisoning?
I'd take LaRussa every day of the week. I am just terrified of what Dusty could do to our pitching staff.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 07:23 PM
I'd take LaRussa every day of the week. I am just terrified of what Dusty could do to our pitching staff.

What pitching staff?

Hey maybe he could get some of these turdlatherers the Reds call pitchers to get ugly on the inside part of the plate every now and again.

There's been something a tad effete or at the very least somewhat DC Talk about this organization since Davey Johnson left. I wouldn't mind putting a little Satan back in the mix.

Always Red
10-11-2007, 07:25 PM
Sounds like it's going to be Baker; I'd give him a chance because he's the Red's manager, and well....I'm a Red's fan, for better or worse.

There will be scores of folks here, of course, charting pitch counts and Pitching Abuse Points (with good reason). For the record, in 2007, Harang and Arroyo finished 5th and 6th, respectively. Can Baker protect these guys better than Narron/Mack did?

Baker tends to be well liked by his team and gets along with everyone, which is a good thing. Also, just from reading, he seems to know what he's doing with the bullpen, which is something which has been kind of a sore spot around these parts lately.

OK, I'm rationalizing. Dusty Baker doesn't excite me, in the least. But what they've been doing lately hasn't worked, so what the heck. He'll probably only be here two years or so, anyway; Dusty is a west coast guy.

I definitely do not like the fact that the Reds busted Mackanin down to scout salary immediately after the season ended. That's bush, and an indication that maybe Castellini is cut from a similar cloth (and grew up in the same place as )...gasp.....Marge Schott.

ps- Cyc, I love the new avatar: pray tell, who is this??

pss- all scouts do is watch baseball games anyway, right???

redsfan4445
10-11-2007, 07:26 PM
will Dusty ask BOB to sign Barry Bonds?? hehe

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:26 PM
Sometimes you just have that feeling that something is going to happen...

Well, I have that feeling today.


I had that feeling the day Kearns and Lopez got traded...I didn't know it would be them, but I had that feeling that something quite significant was going to go down that day

I had that feeling on Narron's final day as manager...his final trot to the mound was going to be his last....


I had that feeling when I got a hold of the "LaRue traded" rumor that I put on here before it was official...I jumped the gun on posting that, but it worked out....something told me it was legit.


Oh, crap.

MartyFan
10-11-2007, 07:26 PM
FCB, I am with you. This team needs some attitude...I don't like Dusty at all but I agree this team needs some "courage" from time to time.

Bronson Arroyo is a step in the right direction as is Brandon Phillips, who called out Pujols this year...though I would have liked to have seen him throw the ball right through his late sliding helmet instead.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:30 PM
Dusty with Bailey and, most likely at some point, Cueto scares me, if he's indeed the guy

Maybe he'll prove he can handle them and that Prior and Wood didn't stand a chance anyway.


That's what worries me about him...not his attitude or anything like that...a little attitude is good.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 07:31 PM
Dusty with Bailey and Cueto scares me.

Maybe he'll prove he can handle them and that Prior and Wood didn't stand a chance anyway.

Believing that Bailey and Cueto are the Reds' saviors scares me.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:35 PM
Believing that Bailey and Cueto are the Reds' saviors scares me.

You've made that very clear...we don't need another thread about it.

If he gets them on the operating table and ruins they're arm, it won't matter anyway.

M2
10-11-2007, 07:36 PM
Dusty with Bailey and, most likely at some point, Cueto scares me, if he's indeed the guy

If he's willing to let them take the mound (Dusty doesn't like kid pitchers), then he'd surely kill them. Cueto throws a lot of strikes, so perhaps he could survive.

My guess is Dusty's request would be trade the kids and get me some adults.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 07:36 PM
You've made that very clear...we don't need another thread about it.

I don't plan on it. (Though it doesn't make it any less true).

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 07:37 PM
My guess is Dusty's request would be, trade the kids and get me some adults.

Yay.

Win now. Tomorrow's for suckers.

redsmetz
10-11-2007, 07:37 PM
Folks, it's just a baseball game. Many of you are acting like this is the end of the world. There are far more serious things in life to worry about than whether Dusty Baker manages a ball club.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:37 PM
(Though it doesn't make it any less true).

Since you dislike them, I feel much better about them panning out.

We'll leave it at that.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:38 PM
Folks, it's just a baseball game. Many of you are acting like this is the end of the world. There are far more serious things in life to worry about than whether Dusty Baker manages a ball club.

I plan on worrying about them later :D

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 07:39 PM
If he gets them on the operating table and ruins they're arm, it won't matter anyway.

It'll certainly give folks a handy excuse when they flop. Though I'm guessing Cueto's headed to the pen, where he'll be safe from Dusty.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:39 PM
Who were Dusty's pitching coaches in Chicago and SF?

Just out of curiosity....this could be important information :)

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:40 PM
He most likely had less to do with Prior and Wood's arm problems than it's percieved, but it's not percieved how hard he worked them.

CrackerJack
10-11-2007, 07:49 PM
By the way, I like to go commando. :D

too...much...information...

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 07:51 PM
He most likely had less to do with Prior and Wood's arm problems than it's percieved, but it's not percieved how hard he worked them.

Mark Prior's pitch counts of 115+ in 2003 ...

May 12th: 124 pitches
May 28th: 123 pitches
June 3rd: 124 pitches
June 19th: 119 pitches
June 26th: 127 pitches
July 1st: 115 pitches
August 10th: 116 pitches
August 15th: 118 pitches
August 26th: 116 pitches
----------------------
September 1st: 131 pitches
September 6th: 129 pitches
September 16th: 124 pitches
September 21st: 131 pitches
September 27th: 133 pitches
October 3rd: 133 pitches
October 8th: 116 pitches
October 14th: 119 pitches

FTR, Mark Prior turned 23-years-old in September of 2003.

Tom Servo
10-11-2007, 07:54 PM
Who were Dusty's pitching coaches in Chicago and SF?

Just out of curiosity....this could be important information :)
I may be mistaken but wasn't our very own Dick Pole a pitching coach with SF in the 90's and a bench coach with Dusty's Cubs?

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 07:55 PM
I think you may be right....

Heath
10-11-2007, 08:02 PM
I may be mistaken but wasn't our very own Dick Pole a pitching coach with SF in the 90's and a bench coach with Dusty's Cubs?

From Trent's Blog -


Tuesday, November 07, 2006
Pole named pitching coach

Veteran big-league pitching coach Dick Pole will take charge of the Reds' hurlers next season. Pole, 56, has ample experience in the role, previously serving as pitching coach for the Cubs (1989-91), Giants (1993-97), Angels (1999), Indians (2000-01) and Expos (2002). Pole was Dusty Baker's bench coach in Chicago the last four seasons.

Give Mr. Servo a prize

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 08:05 PM
ps- Cyc, I love the new avatar: pray tell, who is this??

Rachelle Leah

She's a model and mostly now does work for the UFC ... former ring girl, now hosts UFC All Access when it airs. She was in Maxim awhile back at some point too.

I have no idea if she knows what baseball is, but if she does she'd probably say no to Dusty Baker too.

KronoRed
10-11-2007, 08:20 PM
Yay.

Win now. Tomorrow's for suckers.

Or more likely lose with old guys instead of young.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 08:29 PM
Or more likely lose with old guys instead of young.

I gave up seriously caring about this team a couple of seasons ago. They're fun, but they're a diversion, and becoming moreso with each passing season.

The talk on this board is way more interesting than the team itself. If Dusty "wrecks" the team it's not like it will be anything we haven't seen--it'll just smell a little different.

Always Red
10-11-2007, 08:45 PM
Mark Prior's pitch counts of 115+ in 2003 ...

May 12th: 124 pitches
May 28th: 123 pitches
June 3rd: 124 pitches
June 19th: 119 pitches
June 26th: 127 pitches
July 1st: 115 pitches
August 10th: 116 pitches
August 15th: 118 pitches
August 26th: 116 pitches
----------------------
September 1st: 131 pitches
September 6th: 129 pitches
September 16th: 124 pitches
September 21st: 131 pitches
September 27th: 133 pitches
October 3rd: 133 pitches
October 8th: 116 pitches
October 14th: 119 pitches

FTR, Mark Prior turned 23-years-old in September of 2003.


Yes, 2003 was a bad year for Dusty, as far as handling his Sp's anyway.

Kerry Wood was #2 in PAP points, Mark Prior was #4 and the new kid, Carlos Zambrano was #11.

But the good news (for Reds fans, anyway) is that 2003 was, by far, Dusty's worst year in handling pitching, at least as far as PAP points goes.

I looked back on his years as manager, from '93-02 with SF, and then '03-'06 with the Cubs.

Dusty's first 6 years he had exactly 0 (zero) SP's in the top 10 of PAP (pitcher abuse points).

*then it started (SP's in the top 10 of PAP):

'99- Russ Ortiz
'00- Livan (to be fair, every year Livan pitches, he appears in the top 10 of PAP points)
'01- Livan
'02- Livan, Ortiz
'03- Wood, Prior, and Zambrano (11th)
'04- Zambrano
'05- Zambrano, Prior
'06- Zambrano


To be complete, and fair, the same pitchers show up every single year on the PAP points. Most of them are seldom injured, and have pitched for years and years. These guys are workhorses. Names like, Schilling, Clemons, Johnson, Martinez (until of late), Harang, Livan, Schmidt, Halladay and Zambrano.

Also of note- only one single time has Kerry Wood appeared in the top 10 of most abused pitchers (2003), and only twice has Prior (2003, 2005). Zambrano has appeared on the list every single year since 2003 (no matter who is managing him). I would term Zambrano (and Harang along with him) a HORSE. Some guys can throw a lot of pitches, and some guys cannot. Good for Lou, holding Zambrano to a lower pitch count in the playoffs, since he was planning on using him on short rest.

Here's a question- Is it up to the manager to decide which SP's throw more pitches than others, or is it the responsibility of someone else to decide that?? in other words, is Dusty Baker responsible for 2003, and the ruination of Kerry Woods and Mark Prior? or are they just fragile arms? (which does indeed happen).

I'm sure if Baker interviewed here, this was all discussed in detail. I'm going to assume that Kriv and his staff know more about baseball than I do. :)

Raisor
10-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Good news

I got to have pie with my dinner. I heart pie.

Bad news

Dusty Baker makes me itch.

jojo
10-11-2007, 08:56 PM
It'll certainly give folks a handy excuse when they flop. Though I'm guessing Cueto's headed to the pen, where he'll be safe from Dusty.

I'm drooling over the thought of Cueto in the pen.

Highlifeman21
10-11-2007, 08:57 PM
In terms of handling SP pitch counts, going from Jerry Narron to Dusty Baker is the epitome of going from bad to worse.

In terms of making lineups, Dusty Baker is on par, if not also worse than Jerry Narron.

Dusty Baker would be, at best, a lateral move from Jerry Narron.

Lateral moves are the last thing this team needs.

jojo
10-11-2007, 09:08 PM
In terms of handling SP pitch counts, going from Jerry Narron to Dusty Baker is the epitome of going from bad to worse.

In terms of making lineups, Dusty Baker is on par, if not also worse than Jerry Narron.

Dusty Baker would be, at best, a lateral move from Jerry Narron.

Lateral moves are the last thing this team needs.

Seriously, from a marketing standpoint Dusty makes a lot of sense..."everybody" loves a big name heading their team...

However, from the standpoint of where this team is (essentially about to undertake a youth movement as 5 members of their likely '08 lineup, 60% of their rotation and practically their whole pen wouldn't even be arb eligible) I neither understand why Dusty would want to come here nor why the Reds would think he's their guy...

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 09:10 PM
Unless now the young guys are the trading chips for the old farts team that Dusty likes to have...


:yikes:

Raisor
10-11-2007, 09:14 PM
A Dusty Baker run team would be a boon to Castro fans, I bet.

I would imagine that Baker has some serious man-love for Juan.

fearofpopvol1
10-11-2007, 09:19 PM
For those originally not in favor of bringing Pete back, how you feeling now??

wheels
10-11-2007, 09:22 PM
A Dusty Baker run team would be a boon to Castro fans, I bet.

I would imagine that Baker has some serious man-love for Juan.

I didn't even want to think about that one.

Thanks alot, Daddy.

Team Clark
10-11-2007, 09:31 PM
News travels quick around here.. LOL! I have a STRONG feeling it's going to be Dusty barring a Major Wally Backman episode. I heard from a few folks that Fay has been on the radio and making comments to other media sources that Dusty is a done deal and they will announce when MLB lets them.

I like the idea myself. I know he gets tagged a lot for ruining some arms but I don't completely buy into that. Hopefully Dick Pole can reign him in if it does become a problem.

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 09:37 PM
News travels quick around here.. LOL! I have a STRONG feeling it's going to be Dusty barring a Major Wally Backman episode. I heard from a few folks that Fay has been on the radio and making comments to other media sources that Dusty is a done deal and they will announce when MLB lets them.

I like the idea myself. I know he gets tagged a lot for ruining some arms but I don't completely buy into that. Hopefully Dick Pole can reign him in if it does become a problem.

Well, let's move past the pitching issue and discuss his Joe Morgan like understand of any analytical concepts. This is going to be a really rough off-season if it starts this way...

This would be a clear sign that we have management not interested in joining the 21st century of business practice. I know fandom is somewhat arbitrary based on where you grow up and what team you first root for. I've maintained my fandom despite moving away from Ohio at age 8. But this might be the straw that breaks my fandom's back.

Heath
10-11-2007, 09:43 PM
News travels quick around here.. LOL! I have a STRONG feeling it's going to be Dusty barring a Major Wally Backman episode. I heard from a few folks that Fay has been on the radio and making comments to other media sources that Dusty is a done deal and they will announce when MLB lets them.

I like the idea myself. I know he gets tagged a lot for ruining some arms but I don't completely buy into that. Hopefully Dick Pole can reign him in if it does become a problem.

I hope John Fay gets wrong on this so bad, he'll have to leave town.

I don't get a guy who builds a nice house in Sacramento, CA thinking that he has to have a managerial job in Cincinnati.

If there's good news, Baker likes the mashers. This'll probably get Dunn's option picked up.

Heath
10-11-2007, 09:44 PM
Well, let's move past the pitching issue and discuss his Joe Morgan like understand of any analytical concepts. This is going to be a really rough off-season if it starts this way...

This would be a clear sign that we have management not interested in joining the 21st century of business practice. I know fandom is somewhat arbitrary based on where you grow up and what team you first root for. I've maintained my fandom despite moving away from Ohio at age 8. But this might be the straw that breaks my fandom's back.

There have been worse managers in Cincinnati history and a lot of us around here worry more about the "Cincinnati" on the chest, than the guy who signs the lineup card. Maybe he'll channel his inner Pat Moran or Bill McKechnie.

I feel for the older Reds fan who jeered this guy while wearing Dodger Blue in the '70's. Now they'll have to like him.

OnBaseMachine
10-11-2007, 09:44 PM
What in the hell have I did to the Reds to deserve this constant torture?

RedsBaron
10-11-2007, 09:45 PM
Baker is supposedly the front runner now. (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7323872)

:scared::runaway::runawaycr:barf::yikes::all_cohol :eek::cry::help::explode:
Just when you thought it could not get worse.....

paintmered
10-11-2007, 09:45 PM
I will seriously question my lifelong commitment to being a Reds fan if Dusty Baker dons with wishbone-C.

The thought of Dusty managing the Reds makes me cringe more than Panic at the Disco.

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 09:45 PM
If there's good news, Baker likes the mashers. This'll probably get Dunn's option picked up.

He also likes putting fast scrappy guys at the top of the lineup and sacrificing them over when they do manage to get on base...in the top of the first inning....

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 09:50 PM
He also likes putting fast scrappy guys at the top of the lineup and sacrificing them over when they do manage to get on base...in the top of the first inning....

He's not an OBP guy....so I hear.



Folks won't like that :D

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 09:53 PM
Let me get this straight: you've sat through Bowden, O'Brien, and now Krivsky--but it's Dusty Baker who'd get you to jump ship?

Weak.

Heath
10-11-2007, 09:53 PM
He also likes putting fast scrappy guys at the top of the lineup and sacrificing them over when they do manage to get on base...in the top of the first inning....

I forgot about that part. Pitchers and mashers I knew.

I forgot his man-love for Juan Pierre.

Thanks RMR.

corkedbat
10-11-2007, 09:53 PM
I've been a faithful Reds fan for over 40 years. I've been the through the best and the worst of season's and never waivered, but if they name Dusty Baker as manager I may have found my breaking point. I can't imagine a worse candidate! Blech!

Keep Mack..Bring back Narron..Miley... give Hatcher or Oester a sot! Fine! Just for the love of everything holy! NOT DUSTY BAKER!

Team Clark
10-11-2007, 09:54 PM
I hope John Fay gets wrong on this so bad, he'll have to leave town.

Why would this be any different from all the rest of the garbage he has written??? I mean REALLY?? The truth is the Enquirer has Fay because writers do not want to come here. The paper is in flux and the Reds PR dept is difficult to work with. That torture is almost as Bad as having Narron in the dugout.

Look at how much trouble the Red are having filling simple Player Development roles. We're not talking about Senior level positions here... There is still a lot of issues going on behind closed doors. As a fan I am concerned on a lot of levels.

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Well, let's move past the pitching issue and discuss his Joe Morgan like understand of any analytical concepts. This is going to be a really rough off-season if it starts this way...

This would be a clear sign that we have management not interested in joining the 21st century of business practice. I know fandom is somewhat arbitrary based on where you grow up and what team you first root for. I've maintained my fandom despite moving away from Ohio at age 8. But this might be the straw that breaks my fandom's back.

At least we'll know the secret meaning to The Power of Tradition ... which is nothing more than a fancy way of saying Living in the Past.

KronoRed
10-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Let me get this straight: you've sat through Bowden, O'Brien, and now Krivsky--but it's Dusty Baker who'd get you to jump ship?

Weak.

There is bad and then there is toxic.

Dusty Baker is toxic.

Team Clark
10-11-2007, 09:56 PM
At least we'll know the secret meaning to The Power of Tradition ... which is nothing more than a fancy way of saying Living in the Past.

If it's Ok with you I would like to copy that for my signature....:D

KronoRed
10-11-2007, 09:56 PM
He's not an OBP guy....so I hear.



Folks won't like that :D

Yeah folks who like getting people on base and scoring runs :cool:

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 09:59 PM
There is bad and then there is toxic.

Dusty Baker is toxic.

I really don't see it that way.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2007, 10:11 PM
Take it for what it's worth, from Lance's blog...

Bob Brenly is not a candidate for the job. The Reds would have to move off their "extremley short list" for his name to become a factor. Joe Girardi is not interested in the job. All signs point to Dusty Baker.



Before you rip his sources....remember who had the Thom Brennaman and Jeff Brantley news well in advance :)

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 10:15 PM
Let me get this straight: you've sat through Bowden, O'Brien, and now Krivsky--but it's Dusty Baker who'd get you to jump ship?

Weak.

I'm not going to jump ship and not be a Reds fan, but I somewhat understand the sentiment of those who may be hanging on by a few fingers. Eventually it gets to the point that the stupid crap piles up so high that some people just simply stop caring.

To me, the hiring of Dusty Baker would be yet another fresh symbol that this is an organization that just plain out doesn't get it. There's been a lengthy [and pretty good, I might add] discussion in another thread about the Yankees, market size, payrolls, smart organizations, bad organizations, etc. RMR made a point in that thread that if you don't spend a ton of money and you're stupid, then you have little to no chance to succeed in baseball, and that's a point I very much agree with.

We already know that the Reds won't shake the barrel with a large payroll. Of course, they can elect to not hire Baker and remain to be a farce; that's always a viable option too. But if this team hired Baker, it'd just throw another plainly visible nail in the coffin that the Reds' organization continues to be one of the most incompetent organizations in all of baseball. And if this organization continues to be just that, then it's just simply not going to start winning anytime soon.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 10:18 PM
If it's one guy that I don't want, it's that pud Girardi--he seems way more interested in showing people who's boss as opposed to managing personalities.

Dusty seems to work with personalities, if nothing else. And like I said, I like that he places a chip on each player's shoulder. That's admirable. I despise pleasantness.

Cyclone792
10-11-2007, 10:18 PM
If it's Ok with you I would like to copy that for my signature....:D

Go for it, TC.

Just know that if the Reds do eventually hire Baker, I'm sure I'll be able to provide you with a whole bunch of worthy signature quotables.

Mario-Rijo
10-11-2007, 10:20 PM
Take it for what it's worth, from Lance's blog...

Bob Brenly is not a candidate for the job. The Reds would have to move off their "extremley short list" for his name to become a factor. Joe Girardi is not interested in the job. All signs point to Dusty Baker.



Before you rip his sources....remember who had the Thom Brennaman and Jeff Brantley news well in advance :)


Well, they are just listening to the fans pleas for a "Big Name". I guess some shouldn't have ever broached that idea with the powers that be.

Mackanin is the man for the job IMO, at least based on what we seem to have as alternatives. I would have rather had only Davey Johnson, again based on what we had/have to choose from. Heck I think I'd rather have Jim Tracy than Dusty Baker right about now. But since we are tossing around so many ex-dodgers how about this one. Orel Hershiser??? Now this guy could help our pitching staff!

Falls City Beer
10-11-2007, 10:22 PM
I'm not going to jump ship and not be a Reds fan, but I somewhat understand the sentiment of those who may be hanging on by a few fingers. Eventually it gets to the point that the stupid crap piles up so high that some people just simply stop caring.

To me, the hiring of Dusty Baker would be yet another fresh symbol that this is an organization that just plain out doesn't get it. There's been a lengthy [and pretty good, I might add] discussion in another thread about the Yankees, market size, payrolls, smart organizations, bad organizations, etc. RMR made a point in that thread that if you don't spend a ton of money and you're stupid, then you have little to no chance to succeed in baseball, and that's a point I very much agree with.

We already know that the Reds won't shake the barrel with a large payroll. Of course, they can elect to not hire Baker and remain to be a farce; that's always a viable option too. But if this team hired Baker, it'd just throw another plainly visible nail in the coffin that the Reds' organization continues to be one of the most incompetent organizations in all of baseball. And if this organization continues to be just that, then it's just simply not going to start winning anytime soon.

I guess. If last offseason didn't turn people's agnosticism to plum atheism, then nothing will, in my opinion.

My last straw broke a long time ago. I watch because it's baseball at this point.

MWM
10-11-2007, 10:22 PM
To me, the hiring of Dusty Baker would be yet another fresh symbol that this is an organization that just plain out doesn't get it.

Sums up my feelings perfectly. I'd still be as big a fan as I am now, but it would be a huge downer that the new regime doesn't have a clue. And that's incredibly disheartening considering how new they are and that they aren't going away any time soon.

Mario-Rijo
10-11-2007, 10:23 PM
Go for it, TC.

Just know that if the Reds do eventually hire Baker, I'm sure I'll be able to provide you with a whole bunch of worthy signature quotables.

One good thing is that most everyone on this site finally agrees on 1 thing! Dusty can hang his hat somewhere other than Cincy next year and beyond!!! Let's just hope this FO is using the Baker thing as a marketing ploy to make a Mack re-signing seem more palatable for those not enamored with him.

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Dusty Baker does many stupid things during a baseball game. He bunts too much, he overworks his bullpens, his lineups are often oddball, he seems to have a preference for "proven" veteran players over young guys who might actually be able to play well. But Dusty also has two Manager of the Year awards, given for seasons where his team seemed to outperform expectations in a huge way. Coincidence? Mere chance? Perhaps. But it's possible that opposed to all the negative stuff Dusty does with strategy, tactics, or lineup construction is one huge positive that more than overcomes anything else you can say about him: he commands the respect of his players. Maybe they play better for Dusty than they would for other managers. How do we quantify that? How important is it that Dusty gets the best possible season out of guys like Rey Sanchez, when Rey Sanchez isn't much good to begin with? That's pretty hard to say, but Baker's success with two different Giants' teams tells me that he is doing something right, and it doesn't seem to have much to do with knowing when to bunt.

From a BP article in 1998 evaluating managers....

paintmered
10-11-2007, 10:35 PM
Let's just hope this FO is using the Baker thing as a marketing ploy to make a Mack re-signing seem more palatable for those not enamored with him.

It's working.

osuceltic
10-11-2007, 10:37 PM
Baker wouldn't have been my first choice, but I have no problem with it. His record speaks for itself. He has won with some pretty average teams over the years. He commands the respect of his players. He cares about winning the game, something that sometimes gets lost in all the talk of development on this board. Yes, sometimes that means a Rich Aurilia ahead of an Edwin Encarnacion -- and that's OK sometimes.

Now, there are very real concerns about the way he handles a pitching staff. But most of it is due to Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. Prior has been labeled a china doll for quite a while, and Wood was pegged as an injury risk from the day he entered the big leagues. Maybe, just maybe, Dusty Baker isn't the reason they got hurt. Maybe they just got hurt. He didn't destroy pitching staffs in San Francisco.

I just don't understand the wailing and moaning over this move. The guy is a winner and brings some legitimacy to this team that is sorely lacking. You hire a Dusty Baker and you're making a statement that you're not the Pirates or the Royals. That's important.

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 10:40 PM
(Jose) Macias is exactly the type of player Dusty Baker has a history of preferring: veterans who bring nothing to the table and could be replaced by a rookie in half a second. Baker does have a reputation of getting the most out of guys like this, and to his credit, he hasn't actually used Macias a whole lot this year. The switch-hitter has logged just 140 plate appearances, and while that's arguably 140 too many, his .210 EqA hasn't hurt the Cubs as much as it could have. Despite an atrocious batting line, it's only cumulatively added up to a -3.1 VORP, which is right around replacement level.

From article on BP, 9/9/05 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4424)

paintmered
10-11-2007, 10:40 PM
Dusty Baker is a situation that you thought couldn't get any worse but does.

M2
10-11-2007, 10:42 PM
The one probable upside about Baker is that if the Reds hired, it would be an undeniable signal that they were planning to go for it.

Are they positioned to go for it? Can Krivsky deliver the pitching upgrades? Will Castellini open up the corporate wallet? Can Baker make strange, but effective moves with this club?

The answer might be no to all of those. Baker wouldn't be my pick, but if the Reds put him in charge I'll admire the bravery of it.

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 10:44 PM
The move is another step in the steady aging process the Cubs have undergone since Dusty Baker arrived 15 months ago. Bobby Hill lost the second-base job that was to be his to Mark Grudzielanek and was traded; Hee Seop Choi lost his first-base job to Eric Karros and was traded. Now Maddux replaces Cruz. Only Corey Patterson has been able to establish himself under Baker, and his 2003 season was cut short by an knee injury before he had a chance to fall out of favor. The Cubs may win a championship, but there's no question that Baker's impact has shortened their timeframe for doing so. I'll stand by what I wrote after last year's NLCS: the Cubs will never again be so close to a World Series under Baker.

From article on BP - 2.20.04 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2582)

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 10:57 PM
I guess. If last offseason didn't turn people's agnosticism to plum atheism, then nothing will, in my opinion.

My last straw broke a long time ago. I watch because it's baseball at this point.

There's inaction which can leave you spinning your wheels and then there's gross stupidity. Like Morgan as announcer, Baker doesn't just not do good, he's does bad.

If Baker has a strength, it's his ability to keep the clubhouse functioning with a bunch of big egos around. With Junior on the way out, this is a team with no significant veteran presence and a lot of young guys who will need to be given the opportunity to succeed. Baker is quite possibly the worst choice of all the possible candidates.

The idea that somehow avoiding clubhouse discord supercedes bad baseball is like saying Dusty Baker is a guy you want around if you want to lose and be happy about it.

Ltlabner
10-11-2007, 11:12 PM
"I put Tony [Womack] at the top because Juan [Pierre] was having trouble getting on base. … Juan's a leadoff man, but Tony's a leadoff man, too. It's kind of a double leadoff man.

"Tony Womack's done pretty (darn) good, too, since he’s been here. … Not everybody wants power. I thought we wanted small ball for a while.

"I love power. I love power and small ball. I like the option. It is a valid argument, but at the same time, some of my better defenses were with Womack out there, too, and speed. I'll try to use them all if I can."

Dusty Baker quote in BP story - 8.10.06 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5409)

guttle11
10-11-2007, 11:12 PM
I would rather listen to Fall Out Boy 162 days a year than Dusty Baker manage the Reds.

paintmered
10-11-2007, 11:15 PM
In case any of you still don't know what I think about Dusty Baker,

http://theducks.org/pictures/do-not-want-dog.jpg

Team Clark
10-11-2007, 11:31 PM
Go for it, TC.

Just know that if the Reds do eventually hire Baker, I'm sure I'll be able to provide you with a whole bunch of worthy signature quotables.

Good times!! Thank you! :D

redsfan30
10-11-2007, 11:33 PM
This from Trent's blog:


Thursday, October 11, 2007
Manager stuff

Like everyone else, my sources have told me Dusty Baker interviewed for the Reds' manager position and has been in Sarasota in recent days.

One source who didn't tell me that was Baker's agent, Greg Genske, who told me he wasn't commenting on anything and when I asked a follow-up question, hung up on me.

Pete Mackanin said he doesn't know much more than his golf game stinks. He's not talked to anyone.

Wayne Krivsky hasn't returned my calls, and tonight the call went straight to voice mail.

Sounds immenent to me.

Team Clark
10-11-2007, 11:38 PM
This from Trent's blog:



Sounds immenent to me.

Sounds like it has happened more so than imminent. :laugh:

RedsManRick
10-11-2007, 11:41 PM
Over/under on words before Krivsky says that Baker "knows how win" or that he gets his guys to "play the game the right way"?

I'm setting it at 20 words in to the presser.

Roy Tucker
10-11-2007, 11:56 PM
If all the rumors are true, I can't say I'm too keen on Dusty being the new manager, but I'm not going to slit my wrists or anything.

Come spring, he'll be our guy and let's hope he can find some good mojo somewhere. Not that anyone cares, but he'll get a fair shake from me. It's either that or whine for months on end.

redsfan4445
10-12-2007, 12:27 AM
Ken Rosenthal is also reporting this:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7323872

BAKER interviews with Reds
"Former San Francisco Giants and Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker has interviewed with the Cincinnati Reds for their vacant manager position and could be emerging as the leading contender for the job, major league sources tell FOXSports.com.

Baker's discussions with the Reds were also reported on the Web site for the Cincinnati Enquirer.

The Reds have been seeking a high-profile manager to replace Jerry Narron, who was fired by the team in mid-season. However, interim manager Pete Mackanin is still considered to be a candidate for the vacancy.

Baker is a three-time NL Manager of the Year and took both his previous teams to the brink of titles, leading the Giants to the World Series in 2002 and the Cubs to the NLCS in 2003.

Baker currently serves as an analyst for ESPN, having been fired in Chicago after going 66-96 during the 2006 season."

M2
10-12-2007, 12:51 AM
The move is another step in the steady aging process the Cubs have undergone since Dusty Baker arrived 15 months ago. Bobby Hill lost the second-base job that was to be his to Mark Grudzielanek and was traded; Hee Seop Choi lost his first-base job to Eric Karros and was traded. Now Maddux replaces Cruz. Only Corey Patterson has been able to establish himself under Baker, and his 2003 season was cut short by an knee injury before he had a chance to fall out of favor. The Cubs may win a championship, but there's no question that Baker's impact has shortened their timeframe for doing so. I'll stand by what I wrote after last year's NLCS: the Cubs will never again be so close to a World Series under Baker.

Frankly, canning Hill, Choi, Cruz and eventually Patterson turned out to be a generally correct set of decisions.

Reds Nd2
10-12-2007, 01:12 AM
When future baseball archeologists find this stratum in Reds history, I want it noted for the record. My opinion is that Dusty Baker may be the second worse choice that the team has for hiring a field manager. Joe Girardi being the worst. It really doesn't matter much to me what the current thought might be of the pitchers in the Reds organization, I don't want either of those two guys anywhere close to them.

BoydsOfSummer
10-12-2007, 01:18 AM
Here is a poll. Looks likw we aren't alone.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110040/1071/rss08

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 01:19 AM
I just don't understand the wailing and moaning over this move. The guy is a winner and brings some legitimacy to this team that is sorely lacking. You hire a Dusty Baker and you're making a statement that you're not the Pirates or the Royals. That's important.

His more recent record with the cubs speaks more then his Giant years, the cubs got steadily worse.

A winner? not in my opinion, a winner has rings.

pahster
10-12-2007, 01:23 AM
Here is a poll. Looks likw we aren't alone.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110040/1071/rss08

While I'm in no way a Dusty booster, the results of this poll are hardly scientific.

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 01:25 AM
While I'm in no way a Dusty booster, the results of this poll are hardly scientific.

It is funny though, enquirer polls this year included results saying the Reds needed to bench Dunn, start Hopper, trade EE and call up Bailey. :eek:

Reds Nd2
10-12-2007, 01:29 AM
Frankly, canning Hill, Choi, Cruz and eventually Patterson turned out to be a generally correct set of decisions.
Yep, but neither Mark Grudzielaneck, nor Eric Karros were that great a shake for the Cubs either. Do you really want to trust Dusty Baker's hand when it comes to Votto, Encarnacion, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, etc.?

Cedric
10-12-2007, 01:46 AM
His more recent record with the cubs speaks more then his Giant years, the cubs got steadily worse.

A winner? not in my opinion, a winner has rings.

Billy Beane isn't a winner? Bobby Cox is just BARELY a winner?

Dusty has won at two different places. The Prior/Wood stuff is overdone in my opinion. It's more about the organizational attitude that allows pitch counts like that to happen. Krivsky was schooled under Terry Ryan. He isn't going to allow any manager to threaten young arms.

And I've never seen a manager blamed for pitching injuries than Dusty Baker. Why is that? There is nothing more than random correlation in my opinion. Everyone knows how risky young arms are anyway.

One more thing. Anyone seen Kerry Wood and Mark Prior lately? They are completely different looking than in the past. Not saying they 'roided themself into injuries. Wouldn't be shocked though.

M2
10-12-2007, 02:19 AM
Yep, but neither Mark Grudzielaneck, nor Eric Karros were that great a shake for the Cubs either. Do you really want to trust Dusty Baker's hand when it comes to Votto, Encarnacion, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, etc.?

No, like I said, he wouldn't be my choice. Of course, I'd question how many of those kids will actually play for the Reds if Dusty is the manager. Expect the youth movement to be minimized if he's at the helm. His arrival would portend an entirely different gameplan for this organization. It would be all about winning now.

I've been saying for years that this franchise needs to make a serious commitment in a single direction - load up or rebuild. If the club hires Baker then it would seem that load up is the choice.

MartyFan
10-12-2007, 02:28 AM
There have been worse managers in Cincinnati history and a lot of us around here worry more about the "Cincinnati" on the chest, than the guy who signs the lineup card. Maybe he'll channel his inner Pat Moran or Bill McKechnie.

I feel for the older Reds fan who jeered this guy while wearing Dodger Blue in the '70's. Now they'll have to like him.

Yes, us old timers will have to put to rest our intense hatred...rivalries were not the same back then as they are now...even though I hated the dodgers with every fiber of my being, I was always excited to see their players in reserve roles on the A.S. team.

Steve Garvey had a huge fan following in the region during that time as did Yeager and even Ron Cey.

Finally, I think if Reds Fans can allow Lou Pinella into our hearts, Dusty Baker has a shot as well.

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 03:02 AM
Billy Beane isn't a winner? Bobby Cox is just BARELY a winner?

Dusty has won at two different places.

Actually his record in Chicago was under .500, so it's just one place, if the definition is an above .500 record.

Also Beane is a GM not a manager, and I'm not that huge a fan of his..sorry :)

I just hope the Reds don't pay very much for Baker

Outshined_One
10-12-2007, 04:00 AM
Speaking as a Cubs fan, you want absolutely no part of Dusty Baker as a manager. If he gets the job, here's what you can expect...

-First and foremost, he runs an incredibly veteran-friendly clubhouse. Some people think he's good for team chemistry. He lets the veterans go about their business and do what they want. Some guys naturally police and lead, while others go about their business.

Here's the problem, though. There's no accountability among veterans. Guys would lash out at the media and fans whenever the team was struggling, blaming them for whatever was ailing the team. Moises Alou and Kent Mercker reportedly once called the WGN TV booth during a broadcast and ripped Steve Stone and Chip Caray for pointing out problems with the team. Certain players and Dusty himself would come out and claim that race was behind a number of criticisms.

It's one thing when a team is defending itself against unwarranted criticism. It's another thing when there's no accountability. Speaking of which...

-Prepare for the excuses. Some personal favorites...

"We could have contended if we didn't have certain guys injured."
"Sometimes you have to tip your cap to the opposing team."
"If we had gotten a few lucky bounces, the game would have turned out differently."

You won't hear Dusty criticize his veterans in public. He won't call them out. He won't bench them unless faced with enormous pressure.

-Conversely, rookies and young players will be buried. Unless a guy is clearly head and heels above everyone else, Dusty will almost always favor the veteran. He seemed to do this particularly with position players, but he occasionally did it to pitchers. I can run off a list of scrubs Dusty would trot out in favor of promising rookies day after day. Moreover, these guys will be publicly called out and ripped. Corey Patterson had it pretty hard for baserunning blunders while Moises Alou would get off scot-free.

-Moreover, there will be inexplicable lineup moves. If you have terrible veteran bench players, Dusty will find a way to use them and use them often. He will hit them at the top of the order. Off the top of my head, Dusty has given significant playing time to such luminaries as Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, Lenny Harris, Damian Jackson, Tom Goodwin, Jose Hernandez, Rey Ordonez, Enrique Wilson, John Mabry, and Tony Womack. There are others, but these are the worst of the bunch. None of these players at the points they were at in their careers should have been starting, much less leading off. I mean...there are some metrics which claim Neifi Perez is the worst everyday hitter of this generation. Yet..."Neifi saved us!" was an infamous Dustyism from 2004 when Nomar went down, Neifi filled in for him, and the Cubs still missed the playoffs. I might never understand Dusty's love for Neifi.

-On the baseball field, prepare yourself for some incredibly aggressive hitting. If you hate walks, you'll love Dusty Baker. "It's called hitting, not walking," is another infamous Dustyism.

-Also, prepare yourself for more strikeouts and swinging at terrible pitches. There will be times where you will bash your head against the wall because certain hitters will make the same mistakes over and over and over again without correcting it (pulling outside pitches, swinging at face-high fastballs, whatever). Junkball lefties will make you want to jump off a tall building whenever you face them.

-Dusty will irrationally play traditional matchups. Mike Remlinger, a lefty who could only get right handed hitters out, was used as a LOOGY. Remember when Mr. Burns pulled Darryl Strawberry in favor of Homer Simpson in the softball episode of The Simpsons to play the matchup despite the fact that Strawberry hit a ton of HRs that day? There will be PH moves that will remind you of that.

-On a final note, Dusty is one of the absolute managers of pitchers I have ever seen in my life. I don't care what your opinion is on either of them, but I will go to my grave convinced that Dusty Baker was the one who ruined the arms of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood due to horrific overuse and an absolutely stubborn refusal to change any problems they had with their mechanics. I'm dead serious when I say you should be concerned for Homer Bailey and any other young pitcher if Dusty signs on.

Whatever your opinion of pitch counts may be, you have to at least acknowledge there is a such thing as abusing pitchers. Bringing a guy back early from taking a line drive off his arm and having him pitch extended outings would qualify. Having your star pitcher pitch in a game the day before he is to have shoulder surgery would qualify.

It's not just the starters, either. Does Robb Nen ring any bells? The same guy who was clearly injured and had lost his stuff during the Giants' WS run, but kept on being trotted out there, day after day, only to have his career end because of that abuse? How about Chad Fox, who was put on the shelf for good because Dusty, despite knowing Fox was an injury waiting to happen, decided to pitch Fox on back to back days, including a 25 pitch third of an inning which resulted in Fox's career-ending injury?

Dusty Baker was a horrible, horrible, horrible manager. Stay away at all costs.

Ron Madden
10-12-2007, 05:07 AM
If all the rumors are true, I can't say I'm too keen on Dusty being the new manager, but I'm not going to slit my wrists or anything.

Come spring, he'll be our guy and let's hope he can find some good mojo somewhere. Not that anyone cares, but he'll get a fair shake from me. It's either that or whine for months on end.

That pretty well sums up my feelings Roy.

When we come right down to it, there isn't a whole lot of difference between Narron, Baker, Brenley, LaRussa or Tracey.

To even be consiidered as a candidate to Manage a MLB Club
you must be a student of the "Old School". A MLB Manager should be able to turn a deaf ear to New Ideas and give'em the cold shoulder.

First and foremost you must always manage by "The BOOK".

Ron Madden
10-12-2007, 05:16 AM
Yes, us old timers will have to put to rest our intense hatred...rivalries were not the same back then as they are now...even though I hated the dodgers with every fiber of my being, I was always excited to see their players in reserve roles on the A.S. team.

Steve Garvey had a huge fan following in the region during that time as did Yeager and even Ron Cey.

Finally, I think if Reds Fans can allow Lou Pinella into our hearts, Dusty Baker has a shot as well.


I hated the Dodgers. (still do) I never met a Reds Fan who even liked Garvey,Yeager or Ron Cey. ;)

redsmetz
10-12-2007, 06:40 AM
No, like I said, he wouldn't be my choice. Of course, I'd question how many of those kids will actually play for the Reds if Dusty is the manager. Expect the youth movement to be minimized if he's at the helm. His arrival would portend an entirely different gameplan for this organization. It would be all about winning now.

I've been saying for years that this franchise needs to make a serious commitment in a single direction - load up or rebuild. If the club hires Baker then it would seem that load up is the choice.

I'm not sure I'm buying that. I just spent a little bit of time looking at the Giants rosters through Baker's years there. There were young players who came up with him and did alright. Aurelia, Bill Mueller, Shawn Estes, Russ Ortiz to name a few.

Even the players we consider aged, weren't all that old when they played for him (still in their late 20's, early 30's) - e.g. Barry Bonds.

I remember when Baker left the Giants and went to the Cubs, he was considered a decent manager. I'm not going to do handstands over Baker, but everyone's been clamoring for a "big name" and he meets that criterion. They'll still be my team. I'll hope for the best. I just think folks are freaking out way too much - it's just a game.

jojo
10-12-2007, 07:09 AM
Personally, I don't care about big names. I'd truthfully like to see how it would be to go one season without even knowing the name of the guy managing my favorite teams.... :cool:

redsmetz
10-12-2007, 07:17 AM
Personally, I don't care about big names. I'd truthfully like to see how it would be to go one season without even knowing the name of the guy managing my favorite teams.... :cool:

Well I was fine after a month or so that Pete Mackanin would be just fine. Maybe the Reds are using Fay as a tool to make Mackanin more palatable. I've not been enamored of the big name notion. It's interesting that the four managers remaining in the playoffs; two are in their first gig, the other two are just in their second.

RedsBaron
10-12-2007, 07:46 AM
I could not care less whether or not the Reds get a "big name" manager. I do care about the Reds getting a good manager. Dusty Baker is a "big name" manager, but he is not a good manager.
The Cincinnati Reds are giving the appearance of being the most brain dead organization in professional sports.

Ltlabner
10-12-2007, 08:19 AM
So is RZ saying no to Dusty? Wasn't getting a real clear read on it.....

:laugh:

Kc61
10-12-2007, 09:02 AM
These reports of Baker being hired are just speculation. The Reds may well be conducting interviews down in Sarasota and all we know is that Baker was in that process.

I have heard Cub fans criticize his managing and the posts on this thread would concern any Reds fan.

I'm not very concerned about his field managing tendencies. The Reds have been so far away from true contention in recent years that lineup construction, even pitching moves, are secondary.

There is only one question for me -- will the new manager know talent and be strong enough to insist on it. Will he go to Krivsky and tell him that pitcher x won't cut it and can't be on the team, contract or no contract. Will he tell Krivsky that he can't win without x new hard throwing relievers. Will he tell Krivsky that player x is not important and the team is best off moving him for pitching or a less expensive alternative.

Believe me, I'd rather see Joe Torre or the next Sparky Anderson, guys who have it all. But right now, I'm less concerned with in-game strategy or even clubhouse manner. I want somebody who will insist on a higher talent level.

lollipopcurve
10-12-2007, 09:26 AM
It's surprising that a guy with the track record Baker has -- multiple trips to the postseason, a trip to the Series, a few manager of the year awards, a winning % well over .500 -- could be so easily dismissed as a terrible manager. Sure, he made some mistakes and closed his time with the Cubs on a bad note. But look at all the numbers, folks. This guy has been a winner more often than not.

And he doesn't impress me as the kind of guy who would come off the left coast for suffering Cincinnati in order to rest on his laurels. I think this is a manager with something to prove, and, assuming he's coming here, he's willing to take on a challenge in order to prove it. I like the way that sets up. My concern is whether he'd have the patience to let the excellent young players develop -- I'd hope Krivsky could impress on him the importance of that....

Bottom line -- you have to respect the kind of success Baker has had.

Strikes Out Looking
10-12-2007, 09:29 AM
It's surprising that a guy with the track record Baker has -- multiple trips to the postseason, a trip to the Series, a few manager of the year awards, a winning % well over .500 -- could be so easily dismissed as a terrible manager. Sure, he made some mistakes and closed his time with the Cubs on a bad note. But look at all the numbers, folks. This guy has been a winner more often than not.

And he doesn't impress me as the kind of guy who would come off the left coast for suffering Cincinnati in order to rest on his laurels. I think this is a manager with something to prove, and, assuming he's coming here, he's willing to take on a challenge in order to prove it. I like the way that sets up. My concern is whether he'd have the patience to let the excellent young players develop -- I'd hope Krivsky could impress on him the importance of that....

Bottom line -- you have to respect the kind of success Baker has had.

I think he's being dismissed as a terrible manager for this team that the Reds are trying to become. The Reds are trying to build a team with a solid pitching staff with young arms. Based on Baker's past record with young arms, many, including me, do not think he is a good fit, unless you have stock in Kremchek's practice.

bucksfan2
10-12-2007, 09:34 AM
To be honest I am not too keen of Baker being the reds manager but.....
-He was considered one of the best when the Cubs signed him after the Giants let him go for salary reasons
-He didn't wreck the arm of Wood. Has anyone seen his delivery motion along with his reliance on the slider. Baker wrecked Wood's arm just as McKeon wrecked Williamson's arm.
-I see WK as a GM similar to Epstein in saying when enough is enough for the pitchers.
-Do we really want to bring back another interm manager? At least hearing of a managerial serach is refreshing to me.
-Has anyone watched any of the playoffs with Chip Carey announcing. He is brutally bad.

redsmetz
10-12-2007, 09:41 AM
I think he's being dismissed as a terrible manager for this team that the Reds are trying to become. The Reds are trying to build a team with a solid pitching staff with young arms. Based on Baker's past record with young arms, many, including me, do not think he is a good fit, unless you have stock in Kremchek's practice.

I again have been looking at who Baker had with the Giants and there were plenty of young pitchers who came up under him some of whom proved to be decent pitchers in their careers.

One who got his start with Dusty Baker was Jeff Brantley. We then acquired Brantley from the Giants. Anyone recall what Brantley has said about Baker this year?

Again though, I ask folks to name other pitchers who were ruined by Baker. I'm not saying there aren't, but I don't know them off the top of my head. It may well be that Baker's pitcher use hastened what was inevitable with Prior and Wood and now he carries this rep as a destroyer of pitchers.

M2
10-12-2007, 10:38 AM
I'm not sure I'm buying that. I just spent a little bit of time looking at the Giants rosters through Baker's years there. There were young players who came up with him and did alright. Aurelia, Bill Mueller, Shawn Estes, Russ Ortiz to name a few.

Even the players we consider aged, weren't all that old when they played for him (still in their late 20's, early 30's) - e.g. Barry Bonds.

I remember when Baker left the Giants and went to the Cubs, he was considered a decent manager. I'm not going to do handstands over Baker, but everyone's been clamoring for a "big name" and he meets that criterion. They'll still be my team. I'll hope for the best. I just think folks are freaking out way too much - it's just a game.

I didn't say he wouldn't use any youngsters, but he's not going to lead a youth movement. In particular, expect some veteran arms for the rotation if Baker gets the gig. BTW, in the short-term, I'm totally for that.

Kc61
10-12-2007, 10:54 AM
I think he's being dismissed as a terrible manager for this team that the Reds are trying to become. The Reds are trying to build a team with a solid pitching staff with young arms. Based on Baker's past record with young arms, many, including me, do not think he is a good fit, unless you have stock in Kremchek's practice.

With due respect to the Reds, they aren't trying that hard to build a team with young arms or they would trade name players for great young arms. They don't have that many great young arms. Two or three, some maybes, and some kids who just left high school.

Pro sports today is a short-term business. You can't look too far ahead because players move. The Reds can't say they are building for 2010 -- they can't predict where many of their key players will be then. Not sure when the Harang/Arroyo deals end, but can anyone predict if they will be healthy and helping the Reds that far ahead?

At some point you have to try and win or you are forever engaged in rebuilding. It becomes circular -- the Pirates develop Barry Bonds so he can be great for the Giants. The Marlins develop Josh Beckett so he can help the Red Sox. Yes, Beckett helped the Marlins win -- but only when they spent and went for it.

If Baker means that ownership is really going to try and win in the next year or two, that's fine with me, I don't care whether that is consistent with any current philosophy. As long as they follow through on the player side with good acquisitions.

As a Reds fan, I want the team in the Reds unis to win. Whether they are young pitchers or good veterans doesn't concern me. Just don't give me second and third tier talent.

westofyou
10-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Dusty as a manager was famous for leaving little tokens of interest or friendship at his players locker.. IE say Robb Nenn liked Metallica, Dusty would leave tickets and a backstage pass to see them for Rob.

Being an outfielder he has an outfielders approach to pitching, which often means he only understands how to hit it and the rest is a mystery to him. For a team with big names and vets he's a better fit. But for a team that is transcending hopefully beyond a historic dip I don't see him as a good fit. He's not an Earl Weaver, nor is he he a Booby Cox... he's more like a Lasorda, a cheerleader and a guy who will want to lean on sure things and a set lineup, often despite the results

LincolnparkRed
10-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Two Words: Neifi Perez

I don't mean playing once in a while, I mean everyday, if you didn't like the veteran scrappiness this year (Stanton, Conine) just wait til Dusty has his say in personnel moves.

lollipopcurve
10-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Two Words: Neifi Perez

I don't mean playing once in a while, I mean everyday, if you didn't like the veteran scrappiness this year (Stanton, Conine) just wait til Dusty has his say in personnel moves.

I'm sure if you look at the record of any manager whose tenure exceeded 10 years that you'd find he relied on some unproductive players somewhere along the way. Sometimes the roster is thin. If Perez had been blocking some young SS now playing productively for the Cubs or some other team, then you'd have a gripe, but I don't think that was the case. If you want to say he ruined the career of the one and only Ronny Cedeno, that's OK, too, but that's not going to convince me Baker is wholly incapable of identifying promising young talent.

The guy's had a year off. Time to reflect on the past and past mistakes. I doubt he'll be the same manager he was.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2007, 11:35 AM
I'll be happy if the Reds' front office loads up the roster with the profile of a team that Dusty can manage. Baker is like Lou Piniella, you bring him in to push a veteran team up over the edge into the playoffs. I'm all for the playoffs. 1995 is a long time ago.

But Baker managing the roster that was the Reds at the end of 2007 seems a mismatch.

M2
10-12-2007, 11:41 AM
I'll be happy if the Reds' front office loads up the roster with the profile of a team that Dusty can manage. Baker is like Lou Piniella, you bring him in to push a veteran team up over the edge into the playoffs. I'm all for the playoffs. 1995 is a long time ago.

But Baker managing the roster that was the Reds at the end of 2007 seems a mismatch.

Totally agreed. Baker needs to be the first step, not the last.

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 11:44 AM
But Baker managing the roster that was the Reds at the end of 2007 seems a mismatch.


A trainwreck, indeed. I imagine Dusty will let them know this in the interview.

RedsManRick
10-12-2007, 11:45 AM
.

NJReds
10-12-2007, 11:59 AM
.I'm sure if you look at the record of any manager whose tenure exceeded 10 years that you'd find he relied on some unproductive players somewhere along the way.

That's one reason I refuse to go crazy about this report. It's also the reason that whomever is selected to be the next Reds manager will be torn to shreds on this board.

Unassisted
10-12-2007, 12:29 PM
Now that Doc (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071012/COL03/710120421/-1/CINCI) and Trent (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/2007/10/manager-stuff.asp) are saying that Dusty is the front-runner, I'm more likely to believe it. I hope that another candidate name or two leaks out before the search is over, because I'd hate to think that Dusty was the best option available to the Reds.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 12:36 PM
Sounds like it has happened more so than imminent. :laugh:

That's probably more like it.

Got the "not ready to announce anything at this time" answer from the Reds PR department


Similar to the "Cannot confirm or deny" answer I've gotten before.....like the LaRue trade before it was...."official"

MartyFan
10-12-2007, 12:45 PM
I hated the Dodgers. (still do) I never met a Reds Fan who even liked Garvey,Yeager or Ron Cey. ;)

It was late...I was being sarcastic and I guess with being so tired I didn't correctly communicate that.

I hate any team in any combination of Blue and any other color.

Go REDS!!!

Go BUCKS!!!

Screw the blue!

edabbs44
10-12-2007, 02:05 PM
Someone put the life-squad in NJ on stand-by. Edabbs might hemmorage.

:)

The hiring of Dusty will mean 3 things:

1) The probability of arm injuries to the Reds pitching staff will go through the roof

2) All of a sudden, the sign above the pro-Krivsky side of the board will read "Vacancy"

3) My new signature will read "Bandwagon's full, please catch another", courtesy of Fall Out Boy.

PS: I cannot stand Dusty Baker. This is not good. Not good at all. It doesn't even matter who the manager is. The roster is still looking like swiss cheese. Fix the roster first.

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 02:20 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.

MartyFan
10-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.

I was pondering the exact same thing...I agree.

Team Clark
10-12-2007, 02:24 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.

I was wondering that myself last evening. Dusty doesn't really seem to be the type of person Krivsky could be chummy with. Maybe Castellini is tired of having front office executives quit and constant chirping in the FO that there are problems. Maybe Bob thinks it's time to take this bull by the horns. If so, that is unfortunate. Might as well let John Allen run the team again.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 02:25 PM
Might as well let John Allen run the team again.

He made for some good radio bashing!

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 02:27 PM
Might as well let John Allen run the team again.

RedRead would be pleased :D

Team Clark
10-12-2007, 02:27 PM
He made for some good radio bashing!

Good times! :thumbup:

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 02:30 PM
I think we had folders of John Allen quotes....folders!



Probably still do somewhere, on some hard drive

Chip R
10-12-2007, 02:32 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.


Could be. But I think if Bob would go after anyone it would be LaRussa unless he told Bob flat out he didn't want the gig.

Team Clark
10-12-2007, 02:34 PM
I think we had folders of John Allen quotes....folders!



Probably still do somewhere, on some hard drive

Ohhh the torture of having to listen those. "This is not a firesale"...

pahster
10-12-2007, 02:40 PM
3) My new signature will read "Bandwagon's full, please catch another", courtesy of Fall Out Boy.


Fallout Boy? Please, no...

Unassisted
10-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.Now you're making me wonder if Dusty's name come up during Adam's September lunch with Bob. :D

M2
10-12-2007, 04:25 PM
Baker just doesn't seem like someone Krivsky would choose, if this comes to pass I'd think it has Bob's fingerprints all over it.

I don't know about that. How long will Krivsky keep his job if the Reds don't put a winner on the field?

Krivsky's never said he was rebuilding, in fact he's said quite the opposite. I know a lot folks around here, myself included, have wanted him to rebuild. We've looked at the current state of the franchise and what it has in the minors and figured that a rebuild should be undertaken. Yet that's just fans projecting their wishes onto the franchise.

Krivsky probably knows he needs to win now, so perhaps if he snags a guy who has won (like Baker) and convinces Castellini to pony up for what that manager says he needs, then he can save his bacon. Once again, this doesn't strike me as a great idea, but I think it does match up with Krivsky's personal interests - old school manager who'll want to win a division from the jump.

BTW, if this goes down, then get ready for the club to make a major play for Carlos Silva.

BRM
10-12-2007, 04:27 PM
BTW, if this goes down, then get ready for the club to make a major play for Carlos Silva.

You're just full of wonderful news today, aren't you?

lollipopcurve
10-12-2007, 04:33 PM
BTW, if this goes down, then get ready for the club to make a major play for Carlos Silva.

Hallelujah!

Give the gold to Silva.

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 04:36 PM
Hallelujah!

Give the gold to Silva.

I would have no problem picking up Silva. But I can pretty much guarantee that some other team will one-up the Reds' offer. Cincy would have to get pretty creative to reel him in.

Wheelhouse
10-12-2007, 04:36 PM
You're just full of wonderful news today, aren't you?
Silva was 11th in MLB in groundball outs. He's worth a look.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 04:38 PM
Silva was 11th in MLB in groundball outs. He's worth a look.

Groundballs are good...

jojo
10-12-2007, 04:43 PM
There are plenty of guys without big names in baseball that could successfully skipper a team. I really think getting a guy like Baker would have more to do with branding than a commitment to winning.

RedsManRick
10-12-2007, 04:47 PM
Groundballs are good...

Strikeouts are better....

MartyFan
10-12-2007, 04:51 PM
Strikeouts are better....

Says Adam Dunn...OK, I am joking!

M2
10-12-2007, 04:53 PM
There are plenty of guys without big names in baseball that could successfully skipper a team. I really think getting a guy like Baker would have more to do with branding than a commitment to winning.

Well, "commitment to winning" is a loose term. I do think Baker would come in demanding the team spend the money it takes to give him what he thinks he needs to win. That doesn't make him right. The Cubs gave him what he wanted and it turned to mush.

So it might wind up being more fluff (marketing) than substance (wins), but I'm reasonably sure Baker, Krivsky and Castellini would formulate a plan that they thought would bring about immediate success. It's possible to have the commitment and not the results.

KronoRed
10-12-2007, 05:04 PM
BTW, if this goes down, then get ready for the club to make a major play for Carlos Silva.

Wonderful, 10million + for 5 years.

BRM
10-12-2007, 05:13 PM
Strikeouts are better....

Yes they are. Matt Morris was right behind Carlos on the groundball outs list. Do we want him too?

To be fair, I wouldn't mind Silva as long as the money is right, which it probably won't be. I'd hate to see the Reds throw so much money at him that it prevented them from spending money elsewhere.

M2
10-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Yes they are. Matt Morris was right behind Carlos on the groundball outs list. Do we want him too?

You know, Matt Morris was another guy that came to mind as a potential target if Baker gets the gig.

And, no, I wouldn't want him, but I figure the club wouldn't be after a lot of guys I would want.

flyer85
10-12-2007, 05:30 PM
Groundballs are good...if you have guys that can field 'em.

BRM
10-12-2007, 05:31 PM
if you have guys that can field 'em.

The Reds infield defense is better now than in past years.

BRM
10-12-2007, 05:32 PM
You know, Matt Morris was another guy that came to mind as a potential target if Baker gets the gig.

And, no, I wouldn't want him, but I figure the club wouldn't be after a lot of guys I would want.

Do you think Baker would have that much control over player acquisitions? Would Wayne give him that much say?

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 05:32 PM
if you have guys that can field 'em.

The Reds tied some franchise record or broke a franchise record for fewest errors soemthing or other this season.


Odd, considering how much the defense was lacking...

BRM
10-12-2007, 05:33 PM
The tied some record or broke a record for fewest errors soemthing or other this season.


Odd.

A team record, yes. They are still a bit range-challenged overall but they are making the routine plays more often now. They were still midde of the pack in team fielding percentage.

edabbs44
10-12-2007, 05:35 PM
Silva was 11th in MLB in groundball outs. He's worth a look.

Silva let up 38 HRs in 2005.

Keep looking.

Ltlabner
10-12-2007, 05:36 PM
The hiring of Dusty will mean 3 things:

1) The probability of arm injuries to the Reds pitching staff will go through the roof

2) All of a sudden, the sign above the pro-Krivsky side of the board will read "Vacancy"

3) My new signature will read "Bandwagon's full, please catch another", courtesy of Fall Out Boy.

PS: I cannot stand Dusty Baker. This is not good. Not good at all. It doesn't even matter who the manager is. The roster is still looking like swiss cheese. Fix the roster first.


I think we've actually found a subject we can agree on. :)

Cyclone792
10-12-2007, 05:39 PM
Groundballs are good...

Don't worry, Kirk Saarloos has a higher ground ball percentage than Carlos Silva. Saarloos also has a higher strikeout rate too.

If the Reds pony up the cash to Silva, it'll be Eric Milton, version 2.0.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 05:40 PM
Don't worry, Kirk Saarloos has a higher ground ball percentage than Carlos Silva. Saarloos also has a higher strikeout rate too.

If the Reds pony up the cash to Silva, it'll be Eric Milton, version 2.0.


Well, when you put it that way......:alien:

flyer85
10-12-2007, 05:52 PM
The Reds infield defense is better now than in past years.which is faint praise. The team DER is still very low, better to focus on guys who allow fewer balls in play.

Cyclone792
10-12-2007, 06:02 PM
Well, when you put it that way......:alien:

Silva's a product of the Metrodump and not much more. If you're serious about Carlos Silva, then you better want to know what he does on the road, and you'll also want to know how the Metrodump's run index (park factor) compares to GABP's run index.

It ain't pretty.

Metrodump Silva: 3.88 ERA, 4.22 DIPS ERA, .746 OPS against
Away Silva: 4.93 ERA, 4.71 DIPS ERA, .849 OPS against

The Metrodump's park factor since 2005 is 0.95 whereas Great American's park factor since 2005 is 1.13.

I don't even want to imagine what's likely to happen to Carlos Silva if he pitched half his games in Great American, especially with that lackluster strikeout rate and our below average defense mixed in.

Nugget
10-12-2007, 06:34 PM
I've got a question about this and there is no delicate way to put it.

In the official release first quoted in the thread it says that the REDS would comply with MLB's minority policy and be interviewing such candidates - is Dusty Baker a minority candidate for the REDS to interview just to comply with MLB's policy?

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 06:36 PM
I've got a question about this and there is no delicate way to put it.

In the official release first quoted in the thread it says that the REDS would comply with MLB's minority policy and be interviewing such candidates - is Dusty Baker a minority candidate for the REDS to interview just to comply with MLB's policy?

That's what we're all hoping...but I think it's more than that.

I think it's going to be a history making move...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 06:41 PM
This may not be over yet...

No news

The Reds did not name Dusty Baker -- or Dusty Rhodes for that matter -- as manager Friday. Baker's apparently on his way to Bristol to some studio work for ESPN this weekend.

The fact the Reds haven't made a move on the manager could mean they're going to see what shakes out with Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa. Either would be a long shot, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Some of the people I talked to think there could be an unknown candidate. Possible. But I'd be shocked if the Reds would hire someone without a long big league resume -- unless that person is Pete Mackanin.

- Fay

RFS62
10-12-2007, 06:42 PM
That's what we're all hoping...but I think it's more than that.

I think it's going to be a history making move...



I assume by "history making" you're referring to the largest number of internet nerds in history to jump off the Roebling Bridge at once?

Matt700wlw
10-12-2007, 06:43 PM
I assume by "history making" you're referring to the largest number of internet nerds in history to jump off the Roebling Bridge at once?

Ok...2 historical moments. :D


If Dusty's the guy...he'd be the first African American manager in franchise history

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 06:45 PM
I think Baker just might be a crazy enough solution to work; you treat cancer with radiation; and bipolar disorder with lithium.

He just might be the right shock to the system to deliver the Reds from this torpor.

Tom Servo
10-12-2007, 07:07 PM
This may not be over yet...
The Reds did not name Dusty Baker -- or Dusty Rhodes for that matter - Fay
http://www.comecorrect.net/img/DustRhodes.jpg
"That Juan Castro fella is startin today because he's funky like a monkey, Tony!"

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 07:09 PM
http://www.comecorrect.net/img/DustRhodes.jpg
"That Juan Castro fella is startin today because he's funky like a monkey, Tony!"

I'll give a cyber-nickel if you can tell me the name of Dusty Rhodes's girlfriend from his WWF stint back in the eighties.

redsfan4445
10-12-2007, 07:19 PM
maybe if Dusty is hired, this is a sign the wallets will open... nice to dream!!

Tom Servo
10-12-2007, 07:28 PM
I'll give a cyber-nickel if you can tell me the name of Dusty Rhodes's girlfriend from his WWF stint back in the eighties.
I've fairly well recovered from my addiction to wrestling, but I still do remember that it was Sapphire.

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 07:36 PM
I've fairly well recovered from my addiction to wrestling, but I still do remember that it was Sapphire.

Thweet Thapphire, beby!

wheels
10-12-2007, 07:50 PM
You guys beat me to it.

I do the best Dusty Rhodes imitation this side of Dusty Rhodes. I've got the pipes for it.

Falls City Beer
10-12-2007, 07:52 PM
You guys beat me to it.

I do the best Dusty Rhodes imitation this side of Dusty Rhodes. I've got the pipes for it.

Flip, flop, fly, bebby!

jojo
10-12-2007, 08:10 PM
Don't worry, Kirk Saarloos has a higher ground ball percentage than Carlos Silva. Saarloos also has a higher strikeout rate too.

If the Reds pony up the cash to Silva, it'll be Eric Milton, version 2.0.

One dramatic difference though is that Saarloos walks almost twice as many guys as Silva does...

Raisor
10-12-2007, 09:01 PM
I'd buy season tickets, even while living here in Atlanta, if the Reds hired Dusty Rhodes.

edabbs44
10-12-2007, 09:09 PM
There are a few other Dustys I would rather have managing this team.

http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225221765549d00cd97031c0c4cd5-pi

http://www.45-rpm.org.uk/dird/BE12572.jpg

Highlifeman21
10-12-2007, 10:13 PM
Silva was 11th in MLB in groundball outs. He's worth a look.

He's not worth a look based on the size of the contract he'll get in FA.

You thought we burned a huge pile o cash on Eric Milton? The pile we burn on Carlos Silva will have a similar smell.

Caveat Emperor
10-12-2007, 11:02 PM
It's not enough that this team kicks me in the boys 162 days a year, they have to go and intrude upon my pain-free offseason as well...

I guess I'd have to laugh if Dusty Baker got hired. Really, it would be the perfect storm of awful, and you have to respect when the absolute worst possible outcome actually occurs.

guttle11
10-12-2007, 11:10 PM
I'd buy season tickets, even while living here in Atlanta, if the Reds hired Dusty Rhodes.

That would be great, right up until the World Series parade and celebration when Dusty turns heel and awards the title to the American League team, drawing a level of heat that Hogan himself couldn't embellish.

Ron Madden
10-13-2007, 04:51 AM
I guess I'd have to laugh if Dusty Baker got hired. Really, it would be the perfect storm of awful, and you have to respect when the absolute worst possible outcome actually occurs.

Naming Dusty Baker as Manager would only be par for the course.

I assure you I would not laugh but I could see why others would.. and should. ;)