Reds hire Baker as new manager

[big boy]

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPT04/310110030/-1/NLETTER06

[GoReds33]

I am ready to revolt. If they hire him my madness might get up to where it was when we got Tony Womack.

[Degenerate39]

Lord please don't let him manage the Reds.

[jimbo]

RedsZone will have a meltdown if Baker is hired.

[Degenerate39]

RedsZone will have a meltdown if Baker is hired.

I might not come on the board for a while so I won't be suspended from the site again if Baker is hired.

[AccordinglyReds]

NO!!!!!!

[GoReds33]

I might not come on the board for a while so I won't be suspended from the site again if Baker is hired.I think I may do the same. If this happens I advised Bailey and Cueto not to show up next year. Maybe they can prolong their careers a little bit.:)

[Caveman Techie]

Aww come on whats wrong with having Dusty "pitch em till his arm falls off" Baker as the manager?

[markymark69]

This could be good. Lance McAlister wrote on his blog not long after Jerry Narron was fired and all the speculation started about who would get the full time gig that he would leave town if Baker got the job.

Let's see if Lance sticks to his guns.

[redsfanmia]

A good leader in the clubhouse and if he gets the job lets hope that he learned not to let young ptichers throw 140 pitches everytime out. I think the Reds could do alot worse that the Lizard.

[757690]

The only draw back to Dusty is that he blew out Woods and Prior's arms. To me that seems like a plus, since he is a very intelligent man, and I assume has learned from this.
That is what most posters don't understand, that managers can learn from their mistakes and get better.
Dusty was three time manager of the year, and he wins everywhere he goes.
C.Trent broke down the two most important skills a mangager must have, I agree with him.
1) manage the game, pitch by pitch
2) manage the players and the clubhouse.

Dusty gets and A in my book on both counts and probably an A+ on the second.
I would love to see him as the next Reds manager.

[OldRed1966]

I've heard Harang and Bailey are already calling Dr. James Andrews. :D

[jimbo]

The only draw back to Dusty is that he blew out Woods and Prior's arms.

I'm not a Baker fan either, but I think this argument, while valid, is debatable. How do we really know if how Dusty used Wood and Prior had anything to do with their injuries? How do we not know if they didn't already have arm problems (problems that had not yet surfaced) before Dusty got a hold of them? How do we know if Dusty had used them any differently if they still wouldn't have gotten injured? Did any of the young pitchers in San Francisco develop similar problems while Dusty was there?

I think it's become way too easy to jump all over Dusty when it comes to blaming him for the injuries to Wood and Prior because we really don't know for sure. I know this idea won't be popular here, but just looking at it from a different viewpoint. Discuss.

[Screwball]

The only draw back to Dusty is that he blew out Woods and Prior's arms. To me that seems like a plus, since he is a very intelligent man, and I assume has learned from this.
That is what most posters don't understand, that managers can learn from their mistakes and get better.
Dusty was three time manager of the year, and he wins everywhere he goes.
C.Trent broke down the two most important skills a mangager must have, I agree with him.
1) manage the game, pitch by pitch
2) manage the players and the clubhouse.

Dusty gets and A in my book on both counts and probably an A+ on the second.
I would love to see him as the next Reds manager.

Wood and Prior aren't the only two problems with Dusty as a manager. Jay Bruce posted this (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1473287#post1473287) in another thread, and I hope he doesn't mind if I post it here as it's very pertinent to the discussion:



Besides ruining the arms of promising pitchers, the other huge problem I have with Baker is that he doesn't value On-Base Percentage. This is a guy who wanted Cesar Izturis, Tony Womack, Ronny Cedeno and Neifi Perez on the roster at the same time!

"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage, clogging up the bases isn't that great to me". Baker said this after he was asked if he thought his team needed to walk more, since they had only a .318 OBP. This quote shows a complete lack of understanding for the game, and is proof that Baker should never go near a team as manager again.


Why would you want a manager whose philosophy on offense is "clogging up the bases isn't that great"?

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Big difference with Lou at the wheel this year for the Cub.

Dusty would never have used Ryan Theriot at short. Dusty would have found a way to keep Neffi Perez and other "over the hill never weres" in other positions. Dusty would not have had Fontenot on the roster. He would have kept Michael Barret and would have never found out about G. Soto behind the plate.

Do you want Dusty to be in charge of the great young players on the Reds? no way baby

Lou had the vision to experiment, unlike Dusty.

[757690]

Wood and Prior aren't the only two problems with Dusty as a manager. Jay Bruce posted this (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1473287#post1473287) in another thread, and I hope he doesn't mind if I post it here as it's very pertinent to the discussion:



Why would you want a manager whose philosophy on offense is "clogging up the bases isn't that great"?

Again, my point is that managers can learn. Everyone now understands the advantage of OBP is important. I think Dusty learned a lot in Chicago. Also, you can disect him all you want, but you can't argue against the fact that he wins.

[RedsFanWC]

Bob Brenly wins too and at least he's won a championship. If the Reds want to hire a proven winner Id take Brenly before Baker.

[steig]

Again, my point is that managers can learn. Everyone now understands the advantage of OBP is important. I think Dusty learned a lot in Chicago. Also, you can disect him all you want, but you can't argue against the fact that he wins.

How many World Series rings does he have as a manager?

[Screwball]

Again, my point is that managers can learn.

I guess, but you're pretty much asking him to change his fundamental philiosophy on how baseball works.

BTW, while he was doing all that winning - yet never once getting a ring - Wood and Prior, who were two of the most promising young pitchers of their generation, became afterthoughts. I just don't trust him managing Bailey and Cueto.

[The Cowboy]

Even if he sucks the Reds will finally get some attention with him at the helm. Because you know how much ESPN loves Dusty.

[WMR]

I never thought there could be something to make me give up rooting for the Reds, but if they hired Dusty... well, that might be the only decision that would make me re-think that stand long and hard...

[WMR]

I guess, but you're pretty much asking him to change his fundamental philiosophy on how baseball works.

BTW, while he was doing all that winning - yet never once getting a ring - Wood and Prior, who were two of the most promising young pitchers of their generation, became afterthoughts. I just don't trust him managing Bailey and Cueto.

I don't trust him managing the pitching staff of my softball team.

[gedred69]

Bob Brenly wins too and at least he's won a championship. If the Reds want to hire a proven winner Id take Brenly before Baker.

If Pete isn't considered, Brenly has my vote. He has expressed interest in the job, and he won a championship with nothing more than a decent team. I would think he can handle the all important task of controlling the clubhouse. I really can't see Baker as a Krivsky kind of guy. Rather polar opposite approaches, don't you think? Krivsky=cautious. Baker=run 'em till they drop.

[BLEEDS]

I've heard Harang and Bailey are already calling Dr. James Andrews. :D

Well my brother-in-law(to be in 1 week)'s brother did his internship with him a few years back, and now is like the 2nd best Doc at it in the country now, so I can maybe get them all a discount - if they will fly into Omaha and drive up to Sioux City... (or charter personal flights direct)

just let me know...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[WMR]

Don't forget Brenly batted the godawful Tony Womack lead-off for the better part of 2 seasons because he was "fast."

[Fullboat]

Dusty Baker Destroyer of all arms :scared:

[GoReds33]

Even if he sucks the Reds will finally get some attention with him at the helm. Because you know how much ESPN loves Dusty.If we have to sink that low to get attention than this organization is definitly going in the wrong direction.:)

[BEETTLEBUG]

Who did Dusty destroy in Frisco?

[Natty Redlocks]

If the Reds hire Dusty Baker, then I will finally know that there is indeed a God.

And I will know that God hates me and doesn't want me to watch baseball anymore.

[Blue]

I think its wrong to blame Dusty Baker for Mark Prior's arm injuries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Prior#Injuries

Preseason injuries, freak injuries, batting practice injuries. Not really much Dusty could do about that.

I also think Kerry Wood's injuries are mainly attributable to poor mechanics.

[757690]

I think its wrong to blame Dusty Baker for Mark Prior's arm injuries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Prior#Injuries

Preseason injuries, freak injuries, batting practice injuries. Not really much Dusty could do about that.

I also think Kerry Wood's injuries are mainly attributable to poor mechanics.

Wood had terrible mechanics from the beginning and everyone was waiting for his arm to self distruct. He basically had the same philosophy as Dibble, throw as hard as you can for as long as you can.
He had already had four years of overuse before Baker got there.

As for Prior, he was on a strict pitch count, and rarely pitched more than 100 pitches a game. He had a lot of innings because he threw a lot of strikes.

Basically Baker is being blamed for two pithers who got injured, that probably would have gotten injured regardless of who was managing, and there are no facts that show that he did anything wrong in their development.

[redsfan1966]

Bottom line..Baker doesnt impress me...I dont find his musings on ESPN to particularly intelligent or enlightning....I just hope the Reds havent painted themselves in a corner by announcing Dusty as a candidate and then scared of the heat they may get if they dont hire him...

[GoReds33]

Bottom line..Baker doesnt impress me...I dont find his musings on ESPN to particularly intelligent or enlightning....I just hope the Reds havent painted themselves in a corner by announcing Dusty as a candidate and then scared of the heat they may get if they dont hire him...That's gotta be better than the heat they will take if they do hire him.:)

[Screwball]

As for Prior, he was on a strict pitch count, and rarely pitched more than 100 pitches a game. He had a lot of innings because he threw a lot of strikes.


You sure about that?

From the ORG:


Mark Prior's pitch counts of 115+ in 2003 ...

May 12th: 124 pitches
May 28th: 123 pitches
June 3rd: 124 pitches
June 19th: 119 pitches
June 26th: 127 pitches
July 1st: 115 pitches
August 10th: 116 pitches
August 15th: 118 pitches
August 26th: 116 pitches
----------------------
September 1st: 131 pitches
September 6th: 129 pitches
September 16th: 124 pitches
September 21st: 131 pitches
September 27th: 133 pitches
October 3rd: 133 pitches
October 8th: 116 pitches
October 14th: 119 pitches

FTR, Mark Prior turned 23-years-old in September of 2003.

[redsfan1966]

True GoReds....but with all of the scrutiny major league franchises get in regard to minority hiring-I fear this could turn into a touchy subject....

[kyred14]

I can't think of anyone I would want less than Baker. I would rather have a Boone/Miley/Narron hybrid.

[757690]

You sure about that?

From the ORG:

But that means that he had less then 115 pitches in 13 of his starts that year. (just kidding).
Okay so I was way off on that one. Probably remembering another year.

Still my main point is that Baker is a very intelligent person, and smart people learn from their mistakes. I could be wrong, but I think this means he is more likely to baby young arms from now on.

In response to those who ask how many rings he has. Who are we, the Yankees? Do we have to win the World Series next year in order for it to be a success? We haven't had a winning season since 1999. Let's start with that. Dusty wins Period.

I will add that if I thought Torre would come to the Reds, I would take him over Dusty in a heart beat. But I'd rather bet on Ryan Jorganson winning the NL MVP next year.

[Screwball]

But that means that he had less then 115 pitches in 13 of his starts that year. (just kidding).
Okay so I was way off on that one. Probably remembering another year.

Still my main point is that Baker is a very intelligent person, and smart people learn from their mistakes. I could be wrong, but I think this means he is more likely to baby young arms from now on.

In response to those who ask how many rings he has. Who are we, the Yankees? Do we have to win the World Series next year in order for it to be a success? We haven't had a winning season since 1999. Let's start with that. Dusty wins Period.

I will add that if I thought Torre would come to the Reds, I would take him over Dusty in a heart beat. But I'd rather bet on Ryan Jorganson winning the NL MVP next year.

Fair enough. FWIW, I don't think Castellini and Krivsky are stupid as well. If they do hire DB, I'm sure there will have been a long discussion re: Wood and Prior, and there were assurances that he wouldn't ride the (few) promising young arms the same as he did in Chicago.

[Bigredfan#1]

Wood had terrible mechanics from the beginning and everyone was waiting for his arm to self distruct. He basically had the same philosophy as Dibble, throw as hard as you can for as long as you can.
He had already had four years of overuse before Baker got there.

As for Prior, he was on a strict pitch count, and rarely pitched more than 100 pitches a game. He had a lot of innings because he threw a lot of strikes.

Basically Baker is being blamed for two pithers who got injured, that probably would have gotten injured regardless of who was managing, and there are no facts that show that he did anything wrong in their development.

I think if you weent back and looked at Prior's pitch count I think you would find that he pitched far more than 100 pitches a game. I have him in a fantasy league and I remember him pitching far more than an average of 100 per game! I definitely do not want Baker!!!

[Jack Burton]

While Baker isn't at the top of the list, he would be an upgrade.

[markymark69]

Serious post this time. Wood had arm problems long before Dusty arrived in Chicago. Wood pitched the most innings ever in his career in 2002 the year before Dusty came to Chicago.

So to use Wood in this argument I don't believe is fair.

As far as using them alot, the Cubs were in a pennant race and they were two best pitchers he had, you have got to ride your horses.

As far as Baker overusing Harang. He has pitched over 200 innings for the past two years, why because he is our horse and you've got to ride him.

Even if it were true that Wood and Prior's injuries can be laid at the feet of Baker, we're talking about two pitchers in a 11-plus year managerial career.

Two pitchers again were the anchors of a staff that was trying to get to the post-season. Any of other manager's that we want for the job would most likely do the same thing if it means getting the chance to play in October.

Every candidate will have flaws. The minuses that are being thrown out here in Baker's case are IMO not very strong.

They could do alot worse IMO. I still like Macha myself, but I would take Baker.

I'm a true Reds Fan through thick or thin. Some who are threatening to give up on the Reds if Baker gets the job, can you say the same thing?

[jnwohio]

Perhaps we all need to stop, take a step back and exhale slowly.

What do we know that we did not know previously? Baker's been talked to by the Reds. They have talked to at least one minority candidate (since Dusty is pretty much universally known, that is actually a very redundant statement). Finally this source with the team says they are "getting close" to making a hire.

Seems to me nobody but John Fay is saying that hire is likely to be Dusty Baker. Trent is working his blog today; and, he has said nothing on this. Dusty is a national figure but I don't see any of the usual national eagle eyes rushing to break this story.

For those who don't follow John's blog regularly, he first wrote maybe a month ago that Dusty Baker was a name he had heard mentioned for the Reds job (presumably by an insider or someone who convinced John the info was coming from the inside). From time to time since John has repeated Baker as a "name" candidate who seemed to have favored status on the inside. I have yet to find anybody else who has put Dusty forward in such a way.


I think Mr. Fay's statements today could well come from the fact he was told by a source he believes that the Reds were getting close to making their hire; and because he believes the hire will be a "name" person, John looked around at the field and decided the only name available in the immediate future was Baker (since eveybody else is involved in the Yankees/ Cardinals saga). However in a response further on down in the blog thread, Mr. Fay even says he "does not believe it (hiring Dusty) is a done deal". So for all we know, they could be close to hiring someone else.

[jmac]

I can't think of anyone I would want less than Baker. I would rather have a Boone/Miley/Narron hybrid.
Dont understand reasoning like this. I mean a "boone" over Dusty ?

[mroby85]

Dusty Baker is a 3 time manager of the year, and I for one, think he would be a solid choice. I'm not completely sold on him, but i'm not going to say i'd hate it either. At least it's a manager thats done something.

[Screwball]

Trent (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/) just posted this about an hour ago:



Like everyone else, my sources have told me Dusty Baker interviewed for the Reds' manager position and has been in Sarasota in recent days.

One source who didn't tell me that was Baker's agent, Greg Genske, who told me he wasn't commenting on anything and when I asked a follow-up question, hung up on me.

Pete Mackanin said he doesn't know much more than his golf game stinks. He's not talked to anyone.

Wayne Krivsky hasn't returned my calls, and tonight the call went straight to voice mail.


It could be nothing. But all signs point to Dusty Baker as the next manager of the Reds.

[jimbo]

Don't forget Brenly batted the godawful Tony Womack lead-off for the better part of 2 seasons because he was "fast."

And didn't he win a World Series during that time?

[TheWalls]

As an Illinois resident who had to endure Baker bumbling the Cubs, may I simply add NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

[Natty Redlocks]

Serious post this time. Wood had arm problems long before Dusty arrived in Chicago. Wood pitched the most innings ever in his career in 2002 the year before Dusty came to Chicago.

So to use Wood in this argument I don't believe is fair.

As far as using them alot, the Cubs were in a pennant race and they were two best pitchers he had, you have got to ride your horses.

As far as Baker overusing Harang. He has pitched over 200 innings for the past two years, why because he is our horse and you've got to ride him.

Even if it were true that Wood and Prior's injuries can be laid at the feet of Baker, we're talking about two pitchers in a 11-plus year managerial career.

Two pitchers again were the anchors of a staff that was trying to get to the post-season. Any of other manager's that we want for the job would most likely do the same thing if it means getting the chance to play in October.

Every candidate will have flaws. The minuses that are being thrown out here in Baker's case are IMO not very strong.

They could do alot worse IMO. I still like Macha myself, but I would take Baker.

I'm a true Reds Fan through thick or thin. Some who are threatening to give up on the Reds if Baker gets the job, can you say the same thing?

It's true you can't really blame Baker for Kerry Wood. He gets lumped in with Mark Prior even though the circumstances were completely different. But a 22 year old should never lead the entire major leagues in pitches thrown, as Prior did in 03 under Baker. It happened because the Cubs were in a pennant race and had a mediocre bullpen. The point is that every manager has his strengths and weaknesses. If there's anything the Reds need their next manager to do well, it's handle pitchers and manage the bullpen. Baker's most glaring weaknesses.

LaTroy Hawkins was run out of Chicago on a rail because Baker is the only person in the entire world who to this day doesn't understand that Hawkins can't close games. When Hawkins' 9th inning struggles became too much to ignore Baker went to Chad Fox, who blew out his arm, ending his career, trying to blow away a hitter (I think this was against the Reds, actually). It was reportedly Jim Hendry who finally forced him to use Dempster in the role. Dempster was Hendry's choice from the start, but Baker insisted on Hawkins, even though most people blame Hawkins for the Cubs blowing the Wild Card lead the last two weeks of 04. In fact, if there was one thing Cub fans could console themselves with after that, it was that at least they knew Hawkins wouldn't be the closer next year. But the arrogant learning disabled Dusty Baker knew better. I'm getting pretty irritated just thinking about it; I won't even go into the Corey Patterson fiasco, except to say that if there's another thing the Reds need their next manager to do well, it's handle talented young players. Oops again.

I don't usually do this sort of thing, but I may have to make a few mental notes of which posters here are in favor of Dusty Baker, because my only entertainment the next year will be watching them turn on him as they realize the horrible thing that's happened. OH GOD PLEASE NO.

[durl]

I have to admit that the thought of having Baker as manager does NOT impress me.

[GoReds33]

Imagine the chants from the Cubs fans every time we play them.

[jmac]

I am sure this has been covered but I havent had time to read all the managerial posts.
Why would the reds hire "Baker" now instead of waiting to see how the chips play out with Torre?
I mean the one article sounded like the reds were close to hiring a manager yet reports I heard say NY may decide by friday so why not wait a couple of more days.
"If" Torre goes, does anyone think Lou will be sorry he took cubbies.

[GoReds33]

I am sure this has been covered but I havent had time to read all the managerial posts.
Why would the reds hire "Baker" now instead of waiting to see how the chips play out with Torre?
I mean the one article sounded like the reds were close to hiring a manager yet reports I heard say NY may decide by friday so why not wait a couple of more days.
"If" Torre goes, does anyone think Lou will be sorry he took cubbies.I don't know. Lou is a very good manager, but who is to say the Yankees would go after him? I think they would rather have another very professional manager. I'm not saying that Lou is not a professional, I'm just saying that he doesn't fit the Yankee persona. Besides, he has a very good team in Chicago, and he got them to expand their payroll. He'll be just fine in Chicago.:)

[jmac]

I don't know. Lou is a very good manager, but who is to say the Yankees would go after him? I think they would rather have another very professional manager. I'm not saying that Lou is not a professional, I'm just saying that he doesn't fit the Yankee persona. Besides, he has a very good team in Chicago, and he got them to expand their payroll. He'll be just fine in Chicago.:)

I wasnt saying Lou would be the man only that he took himself out of the running.
Sorta like last year when Petrino left for Atl and then shortly thereafter, the Cowboys and Chargers jobs came open.

[AmarilloRed]

I heard that on ESPN that Torre still wanted to manage the Yankees. That was the reason he had not quit to manage somewhere else. Torre is waiting to see if the Yankees will keep him, and I doubt he would want to manage anywhere else.

[GoReds33]

I wasnt saying Lou would be the man only that he took himself out of the running.
Sorta like last year when Petrino left for Atl and then shortly thereafter, the Cowboys and Chargers jobs came open.I know. I was just pointing out that he would have some good competition for the job, and that he has it good in Chicago.:)

[Blue]

And didn't he win a World Series during that time?

Yeah, and so did Tony Womack. And I don't want him on the team either.

[Degenerate39]

Manager stuff

Like everyone else, my sources have told me Dusty Baker interviewed for the Reds' manager position and has been in Sarasota in recent days.

One source who didn't tell me that was Baker's agent, Greg Genske, who told me he wasn't commenting on anything and when I asked a follow-up question, hung up on me.

Pete Mackanin said he doesn't know much more than his golf game stinks. He's not talked to anyone.

Wayne Krivsky hasn't returned my calls, and tonight the call went straight to voice mail.

From C. Trent's blog

[robmadden1]

I find that very rude for Wyane not to return Pete's calls.

[Hey Meat]

I am ready to revolt. If they hire him my madness might get up to where it was when we got Tony Womack.
I agree. I dislike both of those cats. I was at the game in 04 when Womack got pissed and broke his bat on homeplate after striking out subsequently getting tossed. I yelled fire Dusty at Wrigley last September. I will lose it if Dusty gets the Reds job.

[Jr's Boy]

If Dusty's the best they can do,then just keep Mack.

[Screwball]

I find that very rude for Wyane not to return Pete's calls.

I think CTR meant that as meaning Krivsky hasn't returned any of Trent's calls.

[Degenerate39]

Reds close to hiring Dusty Baker?
Friday, Oct 12, 2007 11:58 am EDT

The Cincinnati Reds may be getting close to naming a manager, sources with the team say. One candidate who has recently emerged is Dusty Baker, the former skipper of the Chicago Cubs and San Francisco Giants.

The Reds are known to have interviewed Baker. The team has spoken to at least one minority candidate, as is mandated by Major League Baseball. If hired, Baker would be the first African-American manager in Reds history.

Source: Cincinnati Enquirer

This one's from Yahoo

[markymark69]

It's true you can't really blame Baker for Kerry Wood. He gets lumped in with Mark Prior even though the circumstances were completely different. But a 22 year old should never lead the entire major leagues in pitches thrown, as Prior did in 03 under Baker. It happened because the Cubs were in a pennant race and had a mediocre bullpen. The point is that every manager has his strengths and weaknesses. If there's anything the Reds need their next manager to do well, it's handle pitchers and manage the bullpen. Baker's most glaring weaknesses.

LaTroy Hawkins was run out of Chicago on a rail because Baker is the only person in the entire world who to this day doesn't understand that Hawkins can't close games. When Hawkins' 9th inning struggles became too much to ignore Baker went to Chad Fox, who blew out his arm, ending his career, trying to blow away a hitter (I think this was against the Reds, actually). It was reportedly Jim Hendry who finally forced him to use Dempster in the role. Dempster was Hendry's choice from the start, but Baker insisted on Hawkins, even though most people blame Hawkins for the Cubs blowing the Wild Card lead the last two weeks of 04. In fact, if there was one thing Cub fans could console themselves with after that, it was that at least they knew Hawkins wouldn't be the closer next year. But the arrogant learning disabled Dusty Baker knew better. I'm getting pretty irritated just thinking about it; I won't even go into the Corey Patterson fiasco, except to say that if there's another thing the Reds need their next manager to do well, it's handle talented young players. Oops again.

I don't usually do this sort of thing, but I may have to make a few mental notes of which posters here are in favor of Dusty Baker, because my only entertainment the next year will be watching them turn on him as they realize the horrible thing that's happened. OH GOD PLEASE NO.


To say that I am in favor of Baker is a bit of stretch. As I stated I prefer Ken Macha. My point was that I would accept Baker as manager if he his hired, because I'm a Reds fan and he would be man appointed to lead my favorite team. Also, to lump Wood's arm problems in with Prior's and the blame laid on Baker is unfair.

I was just trying point out that two pitchers (actually one) having arm problems during Baker's time as Manager, allegedly from overuse is not necessarily a good reason to be against him as skipper.

Also, there are good points on Baker's resume. A .527 winning pct. 8 of his 14 seasons he finished 1st or 2nd (how many Reds manager's can we say that about?) and he doesn't throw his players under the bus. That last point may not mean much to us, but to the players I think that would mean a lot.

I'm fully aware of the flaws, but LaRussa, Torre, Girardi, Mackanin, etc., etc., all have flaws.

The Reds could do worse than Baker, but I agree they can do much better. But are those better choices, realistic choices?

As a Reds fan, whether, it's Baker, Mackanin, Torre, Macha, Valentine, or Billy Hatcher I hope they win as much as possible. If Baker produces the same results he has produced in the past I would definitely take it.

[Natty Redlocks]

To say that I am in favor of Baker is a bit of stretch. As I stated I prefer Ken Macha. My point was that I would accept Baker as manager if he his hired, because I'm a Reds fan and he would be man appointed to lead my favorite team. Also, to lump Wood's arm problems in with Prior's and the blame laid on Baker is unfair.

I was just trying point out that two pitchers (actually one) having arm problems during Baker's time as Manager, allegedly from overuse is not necessarily a good reason to be against him as skipper.

Also, there are good points on Baker's resume. A .527 winning pct. 8 of his 14 seasons he finished 1st or 2nd (how many Reds manager's can we say that about?) and he doesn't throw his players under the bus. That last point may not mean much to us, but to the players I think that would mean a lot.

I'm fully aware of the flaws, but LaRussa, Torre, Girardi, Mackanin, etc., etc., all have flaws.

The Reds could do worse than Baker, but I agree they can do much better. But are those better choices, realistic choices?

As a Reds fan, whether, it's Baker, Mackanin, Torre, Macha, Valentine, or Billy Hatcher I hope they win as much as possible. If Baker produces the same results he has produced in the past I would definitely take it.

Of course all managers have flaws. My entire point (which I'll try to be less rambling about) is that Baker's flaws would be particularly disastrous for the Reds. They do have some talented arms in the organization, but their pitching staff--the bullpen in particular -- is a bit of a mess. What they need is someone who's really good with pitchers to maximize their talents and establish proper roles. They also have some very good young bats, and what they need is someone who is very good at nurturing young players.

Although Dusty Baker does do some things well --particularly when you give him a roster full of talented veterans who already know their roles -- his weaknesses are with the pitching staff and the younger players. It's like he was handpicked to be the worst possible candidate for this particular organization.

[Slyder]

As an Illinois resident who had to endure Baker bumbling the Cubs, may I simply add NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

So I take it you liked Dusty? :thumbup:

Anywho... Please no Dusty, he's not quite the statue Jerry was in the dugout but he's far from a firey personality. I want someone with the fire in the belly or willing to get creative to try to win (like Sweet Lou and the Flubs).

[AmarilloRed]

More time means more choices
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM



The Reds aren't saying anything about their managerial search.

So we're left to interpret their actions to figure out what's going on behind the walls of 100 Main Street.

For example, when the Reds didn't make it official with interim manager Pete Mackanin before the season ended, it was a clue they would look outside the organization.


The team has talked to at least one outside candidate, Dusty Baker. If Baker or another manager isn't named soon, it's a signal the Reds will wait to see if other candidates become available.

Two accomplished managers could come into play soon: Joe Torre of the New York Yankees and Tony La Russa of the St. Louis Cardinals. If the Reds want to take a shot at either, it makes sense to wait.

Of the three teams that have openings - Pittsburgh and Kansas City are the other two - the Reds seemingly have the most attractive situation. The picture gets muddier if La Russa replaces Torre in New York and the St. Louis job opens up.

It's clear the Reds have more than a cursory interest in Baker. He was at the Reds' facility in Sarasota, Fla., last week and has talked to Bob Castellini, the team's chief executive officer, several times.

But it's not necessarily a slam dunk that Baker will take the job if it's offered. He lives in California, and he has young children.

But he has told people close to him that he'd like to manage again, and he prefers the National League.

Baker's final season as a manager was his worst. He went 66-96 with the Chicago Cubs in 2006. He might want to show he's more like the manager who did so well in San Francisco, where he worked from 1993 through 2002 before leaving for Chicago.

Baker, 58, took the Giants to the World Series in 2002, and they finished in first place twice and second five times in his 10 years there. His teams won at least 90 games five times in his eight full seasons as Giants manager.

Former Red Rich Aurilia played for Baker during his San Francisco stint and is a huge fan.

"Anybody who gets him is lucky," Aurilia said of Baker.

Baker is known as a player's manager.

"Having Dusty is like having another player," Aurilia said. "He'd go out and play if he could. He's great to play for. He's a player's guy."

Is Baker the kind of guy the Reds are looking for?

We might know the answer to that soon.

Let's have Dusty go back to SF and he can get re-acquainted with Rich Aurilia. We don't want him here.

[Chip R]

ESPN has just reported that Dusty Baker has accepted the Reds offer to be their new manager.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3062658

[OesterPoster]

If true, then Wayne and Bob...I fart in your general direction. :(

[Hey Meat]

Not buying the misinformation. No Way.

[Chip R]

Not buying the misinformation. No Way.


Fine. Don't believe me.

[kaldaniels]

I saw it on the ticker on ESPN as well...the groan coming out of my body at the time was an unnatural, never to be heard again noise.

[mroby85]

it's true, they were reporting it on espn news. personally i could think of worse guys to manage this team, but time will tell i guess.

it's reported on there as a 3 year deal.

[captainmorgan07]

this is a very intersting move atleast baker has experince and has taken a team to the world series. he has to manage the pitching staff better than he did in chitown.

[mroby85]

i would think they'd say something to him about being strict on pitch counts considering the way they pampered bailey this season.

[howyoufreelin]

Well, he's an upgrade at least. Though that's not saying much. I'm going to save judgement on this move. I am not overly impressed, but I'm not greatly disapointed either. He's been to the WS, 3x NL Manager of the Year, he's got some credentials. Maybe this will turn out to be a good move. Time will be the judge for me.

[ChatterRed]

If true, then Wayne and Bob...I fart in your general direction. :(


.....you English peoples types.

Classic.

I guess we could do worse. I was against it at first, but if they lay down the law on pitch counts, and Dusty adheres to the rules, then we could do alot worse. And if they aren't able to trade Junior, Dusty can probably handle Junior better than most other managers because he played in the same era as Griffey Senior and they know eachother's families well........not to fail to mention they are the same race.

I'm more open to this than I was at first.

[hebroncougar]

Worst. Move. Ever.

[steig]

Well, he's an upgrade at least. Though that's not saying much. I'm going to save judgement on this move. I am not overly impressed, but I'm not greatly disapointed either. He's been to the WS, 3x NL Manager of the Year, he's got some credentials. Maybe this will turn out to be a good move. Time will be the judge for me.

I'm going to try and go into this with the same attitude as yourself, however, I believe the Baker lost the world series for the giants by greatly mismanaging game 6 of the series.

[IrishDavidKY]

This is VERY bad news and far from moving forward. It will be interesting to hear if anyone else was interviewed.

[757690]

Oh crap. The Reds are now going to be managed by a three time manager of the year winner, who has won over 1600 games and has won at least 88 games 8 out of 14 years as manager. Man, that sucks! Why didn't they hire Vern Rapp???

I wonder what will happen to these fans that say they are going to leave if the Reds become a contending team and make the Playoffs with Baker as manager.

Did any of these fans threaten to leave when Dan O'Brien was hired? That made much less sense, and was much more a sign that the Reds were not commited to winning.

Oh well, I guess some fans only will root the Reds as long as they are losing.

[Jerry Narron]

Another terrible move. Next, Wayne won't make any moves to better the club this offseason. He didn't make any last season and it ended up costing me my job. I wish I could take Wayne's dingalingaling and rip it right off.

[Redus]

He wasnt who I wanted but hey I like it. He does have some credentials and I think he'll get the players attention and respect. He's the best we've had in a while now...probably since Lou anyway. I also hope they didnt jump the gun but maybe we should consider the quick hire as thats who they wanted and commend them for their decisiveness.

[IrishDavidKY]

What concerns me about Baker is:

1. His ability to handle a pitching staff.
2. Seems to only win with a veteran staff
3. Believes that a veteran has "earned" the spot to play and many times will play the veteran over the younger players.

I'm not saying the guy doesn't have credentials, but I just don't think this is a good fit for the Reds.

[gomuskies]

i hate to say this and it will probably get me kicked off the board but oh well, boone narron and mack, nothing sexy there but as bad as it got NONE where ever hated with the same guile as dusty, the guy has a career winning percentage over 525 and immediatly brings a scense of legitamacy to the clubhouse that there hasn't been since...trader jack? davey j...i digress ...why all the hate for dusty...this is still cincy, who did u think we were going to get...consider me tickled that it is not jim tracy, and if there was one "big" name i didn't want it was larussa...i just fear that the real backlash is racially driven by a reds fan base comprised largely of a bunch of red necks, cincinnati home of the minority coach, who would have thunk it...if we were willing to sit throiugh the last ten years of absolute bone heads are u really willing to jump now? and over what? a manager that has been in the game for almost 2 decades and has won more games than he lost...go reds and i hope what i've implied isn't true...come on reds fans

[foxfire123]

So much for Castellini's promises to field a winner.

*sigh...*

Foxfire

[Tom B]

Just when you think it cant get any worse...

What was the freaking rush??? Somehow I knew they were going to hire him... We got the Romeo Crennel of baseball, the winner of the most blanks looks of stupidity on his face during the course of a game, just great!

[newm77]

I've been a Reds fan since I was a kid in the early 1970's, but this does it. I'm finished. Adios.

[gedred69]

I was born into the 3rd generation of a family that lived for the first pitch of Opening Day as it used to be, in Cincinnati. Following the Reds is all that mattered in baseball in my early years until I turned 7 and could play myself. (No T-ball back then). I remember as a 5th grader, TVs were brought into our classrooms so we could watch the amazing Reds tank in the '61 World Series. As I grew older, my interest wasn't always so keen but I still hoped every Spring that it was the beginning of a magical run to the World Series for the Reds. For the last 35 years I have been a loyal and devoted fan, and once I could afford it, buying partial season tickets for quite a while now. Hoping to see my Reds in the Series again. I will remain such a fan, but my heart is heavy today. Baker is a manager for, at best a veteran team, not a team with so much young promise. I hope he proves that image wrong, but I will be watching out of the corner of my eye, instead of full view. "Baseball can break your heart, can't it?". (quote from Emmy Lou Harris)

[The Cowboy]

im goin out on a limb and be different from everyone and say that he will lead us t the playoffs and im bein serious.

[gomuskies]

August 13 2008
"Dusty reborn ahead rascal Reds charge"

[Natty Redlocks]

Well, he's an upgrade at least. Though that's not saying much. I'm going to save judgement on this move. I am not overly impressed, but I'm not greatly disapointed either. He's been to the WS, 3x NL Manager of the Year, he's got some credentials. Maybe this will turn out to be a good move. Time will be the judge for me.

When Baker was managing the Cubs, I reserved judgment. By the time he left, I hated him so much I'd started rooting for the Reds. I'm seriously done with baseball. I'm going to go have a life now. Thank you Reds. You guys enjoy it as much as you can. Keep cloggin them bases boys.

[mroby85]

just gotta wait and see, i don't see how this move is any worse than interim managers. this guy is a proven winner in my opinion.

[SMcGavin]

Dusty Baker is going to hate Adam Dunn (as a player). Some of Dusty's comments on the subject of walks ("clogging the bases" as he calls it) make me very scared about the direction he will take our offense. And then there's the well-known issue of his running pitchers into the ground, just as we have two homegrown top prospects nearing the big leagues. It seems most of the guys who play for Dusty like him. That is the only positive I see. I am really unhappy with this move. I would have much rather brought back Mackanin.

[Blue]

I think the criticism with regard to overruse of pitchers and his preference for veterans is overrated.

Wood had arm problems before Dusty came (TJ surgery in '99) and Prior has only been injured once in a non-freak play during the regular season (the rest of his injuries occurred during Spring Training).

As for his preference for veteran players, I'm not sure he has had much young talent to work with, so his use of veterans was out of necessity. I could be wrong about that, as I haven't looked back to be sure, but I'm not thinking of any young player that he wrongfully held back.

The concerning thing to me is that we will turn to small ball, and his comments about walks are not encouraging. But, its not difficult to change your mind about something like that. If the Reds have reason to believe that he no longer discourages walks, I think its a really good hire.

[Blue]

Interesting tidbit from Wikipedia:


[Dick] Pole returned to his roots as pitching coach for the Pawtucket Red Sox in 1992, then spent 1993-1997 on the coaching staff of the San Francisco Giants, under Dusty Baker.

[Degenerate39]

Mack isn't looking so bad now

[Jay Bruce]

This is the worst I've felt about the Reds since the infamous trade, and even that was defensible to a point at the time (and has worked out since). Dusty Baker is probably the worst possible choice the Reds could have made, for reasons spouted by me and many others enough times already. Hopefully, this inexplicably works out in the end, but for the first time since Krivsky became GM, I can find no possible defense for his addition to the ballclub.

[Mutaman]

I've been a Reds fan since I was a kid in the early 1970's, but this does it. I'm finished. Adios.

Gee, and I was really looking forward to your second post. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Marge'sMullet]

I like how everyone is against it. Which means it's probably a good thing then.

[Maldez]

The hysteria here is really amusing. You'd have thought the Reds just hired some wino off the streets. I trust Wayne Krivsky's judgment, and if he wants to do something so reckless as to hire a former three-time Manager of the Year to lead the Reds I'm just going to assume he has his reasons.

[Degenerate39]

Baker is the first African American manager in Reds history

[Screwball]

Wow.

Well at least a manager (or head coach, if u will) means FAR less in baseball than it does in pretty much any other organized sport. Let's just hope that Dusty has a good rapport with the players, and doesn't cause anybody's arm to freakin' break.

[Degenerate39]

Wow.

Well at least a manager (or head coach, if u will) means FAR less in baseball than it does in pretty much any other organized sport. Let's just hope that Dusty has a good rapport with the players, and doesn't cause anybody's arm to freakin' break.

Except Mike Stanton then he won't have to pitch any more :thumbup:

[Bearhawkeye]

Not buying the misinformation. No Way.

War's over Meat. Wormer dropped the big one.

[donnelly_31]

The guy has a winning record as a manager and has been the nl manager of the year multiple times. That is more than you can say about any manager around here for some time. Judging the Reds performance this century I think the guy deserves a shot before everyone calls this a terrible hire.

[BEETTLEBUG]

He needed to bring Dusty Tails Aka Heather Locklear as his Bench Coach to make it more easier to watch.

[fadetoblack2880]

The guy has a winning record as a manager and has been the nl manager of the year multiple times. That is more than you can say about any manager around here for some time. Judging the Reds performance this century I think the guy deserves a shot before everyone calls this a terrible hire.

Couldn't be any worse than Boone, Miley, or Narron. I really thought Mackanin would get the job though. I guess I thought wrong. Oh well...

[Keystone12]

I declare today to be a day of mourning.

[DannyB]

While I dont agree with the choice,I am glad they got it over with.

[AmarilloRed]

This is not going to be a good move by the Reds. It does not seem like there was a true managerial search conducted, and I think MLB should conduct a thorough investigation into whether the Reds even interviewed anyone else. The best thing I can say about Dusty is that he is a 3 time Manager of the Year, and that he does well with veteran clubs. He is not a good fit that I have seen with young clubs, and Wayne and Bob are going to have a lot to explain. He is now the Reds manager for the next 3 years, and I suppose we as fans have 2 choices.We can either accept it, or we can switch allegiances to another team.

[BurgervilleBuck]

Well, this is going to be interesting, to say the least. I'll hold my opinion until mid-July 2008.

[Wallyposter]

My first take on this was, Oh NO! First we had to endure the invasion of the cubbie fans into Great American Ball Park (aka Wrigley Field South), then we have endure the cubbie's cast-off manager. How much of this cubbie stuff can we take?

However, since calming down, I am willing to take a wait and see attitude, which is all we can do now. We do have a bright future with our young players (Hamilton, Keppinger, Hopper, Votto, Bruce, Bailey and Cueto). We can only hope that the pure talent of these guys will force Dusty to play with the hand he is dealt rather than rely on the Old Veterans as he has in the past. I'm hoping for the best.

[Old NDN]

Well, at least we don't have to listen to him on ESPN anymore!

[Cigar2]

:eek: Is all I have say. Now we've got the Lizard has manger. Pray for Homer and the other pitcher's.

[stevekun]

I think he has learned his lesson about the pitchers...he is not that dumb...though I wanted others for the job, I now will back Baker...he is our guy and he is proven. He has a better record than any other manager we have had in years.

[will5979]

This is great! Maybe this is the start of trend by the front office for nexy year, first a proven manager, next a proven pitcher, hitter, catcher, etc. Forget these Narrons, Boones, and Petes. And forget these has beens, never-will-bes, and wannabes, now bring in some proven MLB stars!

Open the checkbook Wayne!!!

[goreds2]

I wish we would have waited on the status of Joe Torre.

[Betterread]

I'm surprised at the direction that the Reds are going with this hiring decision. I thought they would have gone with a manager with experience with young players. I am pleased that they made a choice early in the offseason and that they didn't go with the cheapest choice.
Baker has a (deserved?/undeserved?) reputation for overworking young pitchers and making some dubious choices for bullpen roles.
On the other hand, I perceive him as a great motivator and a guy who has brought teams to the postseason, which is definitely going to help this team.
I think that Baker prefers managing to broadcast work and he will be very motivated in 2008. I hope he is the manager that can turn the Reds into a winner.

[Degenerate39]

I really hope Dusty learned his lesson with young pitchers and what not

[WMR]

War's over Meat. Wormer dropped the big one.

Awesome first post!!!

Don't wait so long to make your second!

[WMR]

I think this is a horrible move.

Dusty Baker's track record is one of a horrible manager who ruins pitchers and does a poor job with in-game management. Let's hope he has changed.

[Hey Meat]

I think this is a horrible move.

Dusty Baker's track record is one of a horrible manager who ruins pitchers and does a poor job with in-game management. Let's hope he has changed.

This an awful move. Dusty is not the right man for the Reds. Bob and Wayne disappoint me again.

[Degenerate39]

I'm trying to stay optimistic about this move I really hope it works out

[Degenerate39]

Only time will tell if Baker's right choice
BY JOHN FAY

Imagine if 37 years ago, the fact that general manager Bob Howsam was zeroing in on George "Sparky" Anderson as the club's new manager had gotten out.

Fans would have gone nuts. They would have filled up Internet message boards and talk radio with harangues against the hire. If there had been an Internet and talk radio, of course.

There wasn't in those days, so Anderson's hire wasn't roundly ripped until it actually happened.


We all know how that turned out.

Now, it's semi-official that Dusty Baker is going to be the Reds' next manager. An official announcement is expected Monday.

And we'll see how that turns out.

When Baker's name got out, people were tripping all over themselves to say he was not the guy.

I'm not going to endorse anyone's candidacy. But I'll say this: Baker's overall record is very good.

He managed 14 years in the National League. Ten of those 14 years, his team had a better record than the Reds. His teams won 88 games or more in eight of his 12 non-strike seasons.

Does that mean he's the perfect candidate?

No.

The questions about how he handled Mark Prior and Kerry Wood are legitimate.

You would hope Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky got Baker's explanation on that topic.

But the bottom line is we won't know if Baker is the right guy until he's on the job, managing games.

If he wins, he's the right choice. If he doesn't, he's the wrong choice.

My blog has been full of suggestions on whom the Reds should hire. People want Joe Girardi. People want Bob Brenly. People want Kirk Gibson. People want Joe Torre. People want Tony La Russa. People want Pete Mackanin.

The Reds are sensitive to what the fans want. But they decided they wanted Baker.

They looked at Girardi. But all those things that got him fired in Florida kept it from going further.

Brenly was interested. But things never got far for some reason. Torre and La Russa are still employed by other clubs.

Gibson, the bench coach for Arizona, and others might have been on the list.

But CEO Castellini and Krivsky chose Baker.

The Reds said as little as possible on this.

Other than denying a report that he had offered former Cardinals GM Walt Jocketty a job, Castellini has said nothing for nearly two weeks.

Ultimately, the decision came down to whom Castellini wanted. Krivsky might have made a recommendation.

But Castellini had the final say, particularly since the Reds are likely to give Baker a three-year deal and Krivsky has only a year remaining on his contract.

Did the club make the right choice? We'll know only in retrospect.

I was in college during Sparky's great years.

I knew so much more then.

I was convinced anyone could win with the talent he had.

When the Reds fired him after a 92-win season in 1978, I thought the Big Red Machine would roll on.

It didn't quite happen that way. In the 29 seasons since Anderson was fired, the Reds have gotten to 92 wins once.

So Sparky was a pretty good choice in 1970.

Will Baker be the right choice in 2007? We'll know in 2010 or so.

But in the meantime, feel free to e-mail me and make your feeling known on what your choice would have been.

Faye has a point

[WMR]

Faye has a point

That article has a point?!

I don't think it says a damn thing except "I don't know and neither can you."

[Degenerate39]

That article has a point?!

I don't think it says a damn thing except "I don't know and neither can you."

Exactly, I wasn't too happy when I heard it at first but what the hell why not give him a shot. Could he be any worse than Narron?

[WMR]

And yeah, I think even Dave Miley could have won 90+ games with the BRM.

[WMR]

Exactly

While disregarding the mountain of empirical evidence pointing out HOW and WHY he is an awful manager?

[WMR]

Exactly, I wasn't too happy when I heard it at first but what the hell why not give him a shot. Could he be any worse than Narron?

haha, can you set the bar any lower than that?

Dusty Baker isn't fit to carry Davy Johnson's jock strap.

[Ludwig Reds Fan]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cubs/2003-07-07-baker_x.htm

Lets not forget the occasional racist remark too...

"What I meant is that blacks and Latins take the heat better than most whites, and whites take the cold better than most blacks and Latins. That's it, pure and simple. Nothing deeper than that."

Harry Edwards, a sports sociologist who served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley for 30 years, called the comments "unfortunate and not totally informed..."

So apparently its not just when he is talking baseball that his comments are unfortunate and not totally informed.

I can't believe they hired Jimmy the Greek...oops, I mean Dusty Baker.

[GoReds33]

The worst move in franchise history. I just can't believe they would be that dumb, not to wait and see what would be out there after the postseason. I really hope this doesn't blow up in their face.

[BEETTLEBUG]

I what to say that I'm not for sure of this move when it happens tomorrow if so be it but we are Adults most of us but we act like babies. This move might not be liked by most of us but I bet in word only that you will go out and Break your neck to get Opening Day tickets that will Sellout in less than Hour.

[jimbo]

I like how everyone is against it. Which means it's probably a good thing then.

I was thinking the same thing. Whenever the majority in RedsZone is against something, it usually ends up working out. Never seems to fail.

Baker wasn't my first choice and I have my reservations, but he is the Reds manager and there is nothing we can do about. I try and look at the positives and his career numbers as a manager speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned. I always find it kind of funny to hear how a manager is an awful manager, yet he is a 3-time manager of the year and has went to the playoffs multiple times.

And I for one think he is a better choice than Mackanin. This organization needed fresh blood, not another hire from within. I could never understand the love for Pete. While I had nothing against him, I saw nothing that impressed me. The team may have improved slightly after he came aboard, but that is pretty normal whenever a new manager comes into a losing situation. The Reds were playing so bad at the time, they were bound to improve.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

what will Marty say to Dusty when Dusty calls the press box to complain about the way he is picking on his players? Or when Dusty has his players call the booth?

[ThirdBaseCoach]

After watching Dusty's four year slide downhill here in Chicago, I feel sorry for you Reds fans. You got what you hoped for - a big name who will undoubtedly drive this team further into oblivion. Dusty could not win with a far better team in Chicago.

Look out young arms!

[BEETTLEBUG]

I heard Marty already gave his dilike about the hiring and it is not really offical yet.

[Degenerate39]

After watching Dusty's four year slide downhill here in Chicago, I feel sorry for you Reds fans. You got what you hoped for - a big name who will undoubtedly drive this team further into oblivion. Dusty could not win with a far better team in Chicago.

Look out young arms!

So I take it your not a Reds fan

[Mutaman]

The worst move in franchise history. .


Oh I don't know. Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas was pretty bad. How about giving Trevor Hoffman up in the expansion draft? I'm sure there's a few more.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

So I take it your not a Reds fan

It matters not whether I am a Reds fan. Dusty belongs nowhere near a major league team. I wouldn't even wish him on Pittsburgh.

[Mutaman]

[QUOTE=Ludwig Reds Fan;1480611][url]

Harry Edwards, a sports sociologist who served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley for 30 years, called the comments "unfortunate and not totally informed..."[/b]

QUOTE]



This may mark the first and only time Harry Edwards was quoted on Redzone as support for anything.

[Degenerate39]

It's official

From the Reds:



CINCINNATI - At a press conference at noon tomorrow at Great American Ball Park, Cincinnati Reds president and chief executive officer Bob Castellini and executive vice president and general manager Wayne Krivsky will introduce Dusty Baker as field manager.

Baker, 58, has agreed to a 3-year contract through the 2010 season. He becomes the 60th field manager in club history, the 50th skipper since 1900 and the first hired outside the organization since Lou Piniella in 1990.

In 2007 the fifth-place Reds went 72-90 under managers Jerry Narron (31-51) and Pete Mackanin (41-39). Mackanin replaced Narron on July 1.

Baker has been named National League Manager of the Year 3 times by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (1993, 1997, 2000), twice by The Sporting News (1997, 2000) and once by The Associated Press (1993). His teams finished first or second 9 times and won at least 90 games in a season 5 times.

In 14 seasons as a Major League manager he has produced a 1,162-1,041 record (.527), including 840-715 (.540) in 10 years with the San Francisco Giants (1993-2002) and 322-326 (.497) in 4 campaigns with the Chicago Cubs (2003-06). His 1,162 career victories tie Lou Boudreau for 38th on the all-time list, and his .527 career winning percentage also ranks 38th all-time.

Baker skippered his team into the playoffs 4 times, into the National League Championship Series twice and in 2002 guided the Giants to the NL pennant. In 2003 and 2004, he led the Cubs to consecutive winning seasons for the first time since 1971-72. His 1998 Giants club lost to the Cubs in a tiebreaker, and in 1993 the Giants won 103 games but finished second in the West Division to the Atlanta Braves, who won 104.

Baker has been to the playoffs 9 times overall during his baseball career, including 4 times as a manager, 4 times as a player and once as a coach. As an outfielder he helped the Los Angeles Dodgers win the 1981 World Series title. He has participated in 5 World Series overall, including 3 as a player (1977, 1978, 1981), as manager in 2002 and as a coach in 1989.

In 19 seasons and 2,039 games as a player (1968-86) Baker hit .278 with 242 HR and 1,013 RBI for the Braves, Dodgers, Giants and Oakland Athletics. He was an All-Star twice (1981, 1982), won a pair of Silver Slugger Awards (1980, 1981) and earned a Rawlings Gold Glove Award (1981).

From Trent

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Anyone want to guess at what time in the presser Wayne starts to cry?

How about a poll, or an over/under for the time of his first blubbering?

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Let's start the counter right now on the number of times DB says "dude" or "man" when adressing someone.

We heard it too many times in Chicago for four years. It'll drive you crazy.

[Jack Burton]

Even though it seems a bit rushed, I am ok with the decision. What it proves to me is that the team is willing to spend money to get a proven guy in here to win. I'm gonna be positive on this, Reds make the playoff's in 2008, at worst we should contend.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

Even though it seems a bit rushed, I am ok with the decision. What it proves to me is that the team is willing to spend money to get a proven guy in here to win. I'm gonna be positive on this, Reds make the playoff's in 2008, at worst we should contend.

Were you paying attention when DB managed the Cub? If so, you have no reason to be positive.

[Degenerate39]

Reds go outside organization for first time in 18 years with Dusty Baker's hiring

By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer
October 14, 2007

CINCINNATI (AP) -- By hiring Dusty Baker as their next manager, the Cincinnati Reds have made a pronounced change in philosophy, turning to an outsider to run the team for the first time in 18 years.

The last time they did it, they won a championship.

The Reds confirmed on Sunday that Baker will become their next manager. Baker, who has a three-year deal, will be introduced at a news conference Monday in Cincinnati.

The move got the players' attention. Instead of promoting from within, the Reds went for someone with no ties to the organization. During his 14 seasons as manager, the 58-year-old Baker led San Francisco to the World Series and the Chicago Cubs to the playoffs.

"Since I've been here, we haven't had the big-name manager," said right-hander Aaron Harang, who has been with the Reds for the last five years.

They haven't had a winning season over that span, either.

The last time the Reds hired a manager with no ties to the organization was 1990, when Lou Piniella took over and led the team to a World Series championship. Every manager since has either come from the minors, the coaching staff or from a scouting/advisory role.

Baker replaces interim manager Pete Mackanin, who was considered for the full-time job. Mackanin was the team's advance scout when Jerry Narron was fired in July, and led the Reds to a 41-39 record the rest of the way.

"I'm very disappointed with the news, but I only wish the best for the Reds and the future," Mackanin said by phone. "Dusty certainly has a winning record, and I hope that the players respond to him."

Baker has a history of handling superstars. He managed Barry Bonds in San Francisco and Sammy Sosa in Chicago. He'll be united with Ken Griffey Jr. in Cincinnati.

Mackanin might stay with the team in some capacity and still hopes to manage someday.

"It's a bit of a surprise, but I wasn't overwhelmed by it," Mackanin said. "Obviously they felt they went the way they needed to go. I'm fine with it. I understand. It just isn't my time. Hopefully down the road, my time will come and I'll have an opportunity."

Baker was fired by the Cubs after they finished an NL-worst 66-96 in 2006. Baker worked in television for a year while waiting for a chance to get back to managing. The Reds were coming off their seventh straight losing season -- their longest slump since 1945-55 -- and looking for someone with a record of winning.

"He has an established track record, a winning track record," Harang said by phone from his home in San Diego. "He knows how to help teams win and to get them in a winning state of mind. I think he's definitely going to get a change of attitude and get the players to play for him."

Baker managed the Giants for 10 years, leading them to the World Series in 2002. He left San Francisco after a falling out with ownership and went to the Cubs, guiding them to the NL championship series in his first season.

That first season in Chicago was the high point. Injuries depleted the starting rotation, and the organization decided to change directions after that last-place finish in 2006.

[gedred69]

After watching Dusty's four year slide downhill here in Chicago, I feel sorry for you Reds fans. You got what you hoped for - a big name who will undoubtedly drive this team further into oblivion. Dusty could not win with a far better team in Chicago.

Look out young arms!

Great. Now we endure smug Cubs fans on Redszone, and by the way, (read the threads Cubby), it certainly wasn't what most of us hoped for. That not withstanding, Baker is not a fit for a team whose light at the end of the tunnel is its young talent. I'd be surprised to see him handle them appropriately. His sucessful years were with teams that had a lot of veterans.

[IowaRed]

From Stormy over on the ORG-sums up my feelings except that in addition I really disliked Baker as a Dodger player and as a Cub manager. I was shocked and extremely disappointed that this is the route the Reds front office decided was best for the club.

"First time since I adopted the Reds at 5 years of age that I've been tempted to temporarily turn my back on the franchise. How utterly, and totally, disheartening. This is a telltale that BCast likes to make an indiscriminate splash, not based on merit but upon name recognition. No wonder we shell out for past their prime vets with name recognition, over more talented, less expensive alternatives.

Cleveland might be headed to the World Series with youngsters, and a guy named Wedge as their head coach. We need innovation in the F.O. and amidst the scouting ranks, not a splashy manager and an antiquated F.O. philosophy.

My optimism for this team steadily heading in the right direction the past 3-4 months is utterly dashed, and I'm guessing we'll now hit rock bottom before ever rebounding. I'm sorry in advance for Harang and Arroyo (thanks for the good years), and for Bailey's imminent demise."

[Mutaman]

[QUOTE=IowaRed;1480749]
My optimism for this team steadily heading in the right direction the past 3-4 months is utterly dashed, QUOTE]

Winning 72 games in the worst division in baseball certainly gives one grounds for optimism. And now we've hired a guy about whom the big knock seems to be that he could only win one division title with that storied organization, the Cubs. Calm down.

[jnwohio]

I guess Mr Castellini wanted a "big name" and this one was the biggest he could get. Hiring him now instead of after all the other situations played out protects his "big name" status since the liklihood is that no way was Gerardi or LaRussa (let alone Torre) ever going to come to Cincy under the current conditions even if they were available.

That's one way of looking at it. Of course if you go back to John Fay's blog he said well before the end of the season, perhaps even in late August that he had heard Dusty was the hot name for the position; and Matt700WLW over on the ORG was posting well back that Dusty was big in the mix. So there are two guys with sources who were on to this early which means maybe Dusty was the man they wanted (or knew they could get) all along.

For now I am skeptical. Dusty had a successfull managerial record up until his flameout in Chicago; but I don't see his demostrated skill set matching up with what the Reds would seem to need right now in a manager. I will be listening tomorrow to the conference to see if I hear anything which makes me feel better about this hire. It will be interesting also to see if Walt Jocketty is also behind the curtain or sitting at the table.

[GoReds33]

Were you paying attention when DB managed the Cub? If so, you have no reason to be positive.I watched a lot of games when Dusty was in Chicago. I think that the pressure got to him. I don't know how much he learned from that experience, but whatever he did learn, I hope it helps. He does give this team some name recognition. Atleast I have heard of him. Honestly, who had heard of some of our last managers before they got here?:)

[ThirdBaseCoach]

I watched a lot of games when Dusty was in Chicago. I think that the pressure got to him. I don't know how much he learned from that experience, but whatever he did learn, I hope it helps. He does give this team some name recognition. Atleast I have heard of him. Honestly, who had heard of some of our last managers before they got here?:)

The pressure got to him? doh!

What do you know about Eric Wedge? How about Bob Melvin? Clint Hurdle? big names? hmmmmmmm

[GoReds33]

The pressure got to him? doh!

What do you know about Eric Wedge? How about Bob Melvin? Clint Hurdle? big names? hmmmmmmmI don't exactly get what you are trying to say here. The pressure did get to him. I know a little bit about those guys. Atleast I have heard of them.:)

[ThirdBaseCoach]

I don't exactly get what you are trying to say here. The pressure did get to him. I know a little bit about those guys. Atleast I have heard of them.:)

THE PRESSURE GOT TO HIM? what, are you kidding? good luck with Dusty, dude.

[IowaRed]

[QUOTE=IowaRed;1480749]
My optimism for this team steadily heading in the right direction the past 3-4 months is utterly dashed, QUOTE]

Winning 72 games in the worst division in baseball certainly gives one grounds for optimism. And now we've hired a guy about whom the big knock seems to be that he could only win one division title with that storied organization, the Cubs. Calm down.

Winning 72 games has NOTHING to do with my optimism. My optimism has more to do with the Reds cutting ties with Ellison (et al), the play of EE, Phillips, Dunn, Harang, Burton, the hope the Reds would be picking up Dunn's option and hiring a manager that had a track record of dealing with and developing young players.

[AmarilloRed]

There is no way of telling what Baker told Reds management about some of his past managing moves, including blowing out Wood's and Prior's arms. I hope he has learned players need to take walks, to not overwork starting pitchers, and to treat young prospects with the same respect he gives veterans. He has shown an ability to take teams to the playoffs and I hope he can do that in Cincinnati. I am willing to give him a chance, but he needs to show all Reds fans that he has learned from his past mistakes. If he has and can bring winning back to the Reds, we should all be willing to give him a se chance.

[Blue]

Someone please tell me why this is wrong:


I think the criticism with regard to overruse of pitchers and his preference for veterans is overrated.

Wood had arm problems before Dusty came (TJ surgery in '99) and Prior has only been injured once in a non-freak play during the regular season (the rest of his injuries occurred during Spring Training).

As for his preference for veteran players, I'm not sure he has had much young talent to work with, so his use of veterans was out of necessity. I could be wrong about that, as I haven't looked back to be sure, but I'm not thinking of any young player that he wrongfully held back.

The concerning thing to me is that we will turn to small ball, and his comments about walks are not encouraging. But, its not difficult to change your mind about something like that. If the Reds have reason to believe that he no longer discourages walks, I think its a really good hire.

[TinaMarie]

~~~ Dusty isnt even cute ~~~

~~~ Ugh ~~~

[Degenerate39]

From Trent


Dusty reax

The Reds sent this from Dusty's agent, my ol' pal Greg Genske: "Dusty is extremely excited to join the Cincinnati Reds with its rich history—and looks forward to helping re-establish the legacy of the Big Red Machine."


Aaron Harang: "I think he’s going to be a good addition to our team. He’s got a track record, he knows how to win. I think he’s going to demand quality play from his players. He’s not going to be the type of guy who is not afraid of benching a guy for not hustling."


Bronson Arroyo: "To get it out of the way quick is great, instead of dragging it out and going through five or six interviews and waiting until the last minute to make a decision. It’s good for the organization to get going in the right direction."


Marty Brennaman: "I don’t think you can deny his track record. I was even surprised at it after I looked at it. If you want to talk about a guy with 9 winning seasons."


Rich Aurilia: "I think it’s great, he’s the type of guy players want to play for it’s like having another guy on the team. He'd love to play. He'd like to put the uniform on. I think it’s a great hire, he's a great character guy and a great communicator. He treats everyone the same. I think he’ll enjoy the ownership group and they’re going in the right direction."


Kent Mercker: "I think it’s a great hire. Being the prognosticator I am, if they’re going to make a change, I thought Dusty would be a great candidate. He brings instant street credibility. It’s a name everyone has heard of. As a player, he’s played in the World Series, he can relate to players, because he was a player. The one thing I got from him, he knew every one of his players, he knew their wives names, he knew what they liked to eat. He took the time to get to know the 25 guys he was going to battle with."


Pete Mackanin: "Today I’m just digesting the news, trying to figure out what the plan is. I think I’m just going to start calling other teams and try to get a job. There may or may not be something for me in the organization. It’s probably unlikely as a coach, but I don’t think that’s been ruled out. I’m just going to start making phone calls."


Jeff Brantley: "I think it’s awesome. I think the Reds will benefit greatly by having Dusty at the wheel. I know there are naysayers, but I’ve played for him. I know what it’s like to play for a young manager, I know what it’s like to play for a guy who has played a long time. Dusty’s very good. He’s about winning. The one thing I’ve always loved about Dusty is he’s a guy who gets guys to play their best."

"He knows how to teach you how to hit, too. You can bet your bottom dollar that there won’t be any slumps swinging the bat."

"Everyone’s knock on Dusty is not understanding pitchers, but the thing about it is he does understand. But when you have your main pitcher is basically hurting himself, which was Prior and you have another guy with the worst mechanics in the game in Kerry Wood. Those guys were going to get hurt, no matter who was manager. He just ended up getting kicked in the teeth for it."

[redsfan1966]

Ok, let me first admit and reiterate that I am against the hiring of Dusty as Red's manager. I have found nothing he has stated on ESPN to be particularly enlightning. Ludwig Reds Fan brought up something I had forgotten with his comments about Latin players. Plus, the points brought up earlier about possible run-ins with Marty, Thom and Jeff in the booth is very valid. The Lizard got Chip Caray and Steve Stone run in Chi-town. (Wait, maybe that wasnt such a bad thing). Plus, why the rush?? I would have loved to seen how things would have turned out with LaRussa in St. Louis. However, I am not ready to turn my back on my team, leave town or jump off a bridge. I am willing to see how things turn out. If Dusty should be able to turn around our "Power of Mediocrity"; I will gladly be the first to admit I was wrong.

See ya at Redsfest!

[Degenerate39]

I don't think this one's been posted yet


In defense of Dusty
Brantley, players like Reds' choice of Baker
BY JOHN FAY


Dusty Baker, who will be announced Monday as the 60th field manager in Reds history, is known as a players’ manager.

Just ask Reds radio announcer Jeff Brantley, who played for Baker in 1993.

“I love Dusty,” Brantley said Sunday. “I’d play for Dusty anytime.”

Baker will formally be announced Monday at noon and has a three-year contract with the team through the 2010 season.

The choice has already drawn criticism from some Reds fans. Almost as soon as Baker emerged as the leading candidate for the job last week, message boards and sports talk show phone lines lit up with unhappy fans.

Much of the criticism centers on how Baker handles pitchers. Critics say he ignores pitch counts and tends to leave pitchers in games too long.

Brantley, who played for Baker in San Francisco, knows all about the raps on the man he considers a good friend. He has a different perception of Baker.

“He took the blame for the injuries to (Cubs star pitchers) Kerry Wood and Mark Prior,” Brantley said. “I don’t think that was his fault. I never had a problem with the way Dusty handled me when I pitched for him.”

Baker, who played for 19 seasons with the Braves, Dodgers, Giants and Athletics, has established a solid track record as a manager.

He’s been named the National League manager of the year three times by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America and has taken his teams to the playoffs four times.

His Giants made the World Series in 2002, where they lost in seven games to the Anaheim Angels.

Baker left San Francisco for the Chicago Cubs after the 2002 season. He guided the Cubs to within five outs of a World Series appearance in 2003, and his club won 89 games in 2004.

But the Cubs slipped to 79-83 in 2005, and 66-96 in 2006, and Baker was fired.

Brantley said Baker took the hit for a weak Cubs bullpen.

“Dusty had a terrible bullpen those years,” Brantley said. “He took the fall for that.”

Current Reds ace Aaron Harang, who went 16-6 in 2007, has heard the knocks on Baker and isn’t worried.

“It’s not a concern for me,” Harang said. “I’ll tell (current Reds pitching coach Dick Pole) how I feel. I’ll tell them whether I can go another inning or not. It’s all about communication.”

Harang heard the news about Baker while watching the American League Championship Series.

“From what I’ve heard, guys really like playing for him,” Harang said. “He has a good reputation as a manager.”

Part of that reputation comes from Baker’s ability to manage personalities. In San Francisco, he kept the team together despite the ego of slugger Barry Bonds. He did the same with the Cubs, where Sammy Sosa ruled the clubhouse.

“He had two of the most high-profile players ever to play the game when they were going through rocky times,” Brantley said. “I’m talking about (Barry) Bonds and (Sammy) Sosa. Dusty handled them both well.

“That’s the key. It ain’t going to be the pitching staff. It’s going to be about how he handles (Ken Griffey Jr.).”

Rich Aurilia, the former Red who played for Baker in San Francisco, doesn’t think Baker will have problems in Cincinnati.

“Dusty knows how to get the most out of guys,” Aurilia said. “He’s like having another player. He’d go out and play if he could.”

Aurilia said Baker still calls him and asks how he’s doing.

“Dusty gets to know you off the field,” Aurilia said. “A lot of managers don’t do that.”

Ken Griffey Sr. is a friend of Baker’s. They got to know each other from playing against one another.

“He’ll do an excellent job,” Griffey said. “He’s patient. He understands players from playing for 20 years. He lets players play.”

Another criticism of Baker is that he has a thin skin and doesn’t like to be second-guessed. Whether that’s valid doesn’t matter to Marty Brennaman, the lead radio announcer for the Reds who is not one to keep his opinions private.

Brennaman said he’ll continue to ask the tough questions.

“Most pregame shows tell you nothing because the questions are softballs,” Brennaman said. “If he does something that backfires the night before, I’m going to ask him about it. I’ve done that with all the mangers.

“If he bristles at that, then somebody else is going to be doing the show.”

Brennaman’s partner, Brantley, said that Baker has the ability to learn from his mistakes.

“Dusty’s a very intelligent baseball person,” Brantley said. “He knows his strengths and weaknesses.”

[kyred14]

Inept organization. At least I have Kentucky football.

[kaldaniels]

What ever happened to the "no major MLB announcements until after the World Series" rule....?????

[SMcGavin]

Here are the pitch counts for Mark Prior's last ten starts of 2003 (the last three are from the playoffs):

116
131
129
110
124
131
133
133
116
119

Prior was 23 years old in 2003. That's an average of 124 pitches per start. Eek.

[AmarilloRed]

The concerns about keeping pitchers in with high pitch counts and relying too much on veterans are valid ones. I have heard he is a player's manager, and I have hopes he will treat all his players the same. Blue made some excellent points, but Baker will need to show in 2008 that the fears fans have are groundless, and that he has learned from his past mistakes. If he can do that , and bring winning baseball back to Cincinnati, most of us should support him as manager

[jimbo]

Here are the pitch counts for Mark Prior's last ten starts of 2003 (the last three are from the playoffs):

116
131
129
110
124
131
133
133
116
119

Prior was 23 years old in 2003. That's an average of 124 pitches per start. Eek.

This is from mth123 over in the ORG:


Prior threw 129 Innings at U.S.C. at age 19, followed by 138 Innings at age 20. In his first year in the Cub's organization he threw 167 and 2/3 innings at three levels at age 21. At age 22 he threw 211 and 1/3 innings and then the problems appeared. The progression doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. I'd have probably backed off by 15 innings or so in 2003, but the Cubs were in a race and can see how it happened.

Prior was throwing a lot of innings back in his college years and through the minor leagues. If he was abused as many claim, then there are a lot of coaches at fault besides just Baker.

For anyone who hasn't checked them out, there are some great discussions going on in the ORG about the Baker hiring. Excellent reading.

[757690]

"Originally Posted by Blue
I think the criticism with regard to overruse of pitchers and his preference for veterans is overrated.

Wood had arm problems before Dusty came (TJ surgery in '99) and Prior has only been injured once in a non-freak play during the regular season (the rest of his injuries occurred during Spring Training).

As for his preference for veteran players, I'm not sure he has had much young talent to work with, so his use of veterans was out of necessity. I could be wrong about that, as I haven't looked back to be sure, but I'm not thinking of any young player that he wrongfully held back.

The concerning thing to me is that we will turn to small ball, and his comments about walks are not encouraging. But, its not difficult to change your mind about something like that. If the Reds have reason to believe that he no longer discourages walks, I think its a really good hire."


Someone please tell me why this is wrong:

The fact that no one has posted a response says it all.

[WMR]

"Originally Posted by Blue
I think the criticism with regard to overruse of pitchers and his preference for veterans is overrated.

Wood had arm problems before Dusty came (TJ surgery in '99) and Prior has only been injured once in a non-freak play during the regular season (the rest of his injuries occurred during Spring Training).

As for his preference for veteran players, I'm not sure he has had much young talent to work with, so his use of veterans was out of necessity. I could be wrong about that, as I haven't looked back to be sure, but I'm not thinking of any young player that he wrongfully held back.

The concerning thing to me is that we will turn to small ball, and his comments about walks are not encouraging. But, its not difficult to change your mind about something like that. If the Reds have reason to believe that he no longer discourages walks, I think its a really good hire."



The fact that no one has posted a response says it all.

Two words: Pitch Count.

[WMR]

Check my third sig... I don't see Dusty going "back to school" a la Rodney Dangerfield.

He's as old school as old school gets.

[757690]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cubs/2003-07-07-baker_x.htm

Lets not forget the occasional racist remark too...

"What I meant is that blacks and Latins take the heat better than most whites, and whites take the cold better than most blacks and Latins. That's it, pure and simple. Nothing deeper than that."

Harry Edwards, a sports sociologist who served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley for 30 years, called the comments "unfortunate and not totally informed..."

So apparently its not just when he is talking baseball that his comments are unfortunate and not totally informed.

I can't believe they hired Jimmy the Greek...oops, I mean Dusty Baker.

Hate to get into a heated discussion about this on this board, but Bakers silly comment that black and hispanic players are better suited for the heat than white players is not racist. He was dumb to make them, but they are not racist.
The only reason why they appear racist is because we live in an overly racially sensitive society. It is impossible to make any statement about race without people calling it racist.
Dusty was just pointing out that most blacks and most hispanics grew up in a area with a hot climate. That is true, as a generalization. He also added that Blacks were brought over here as slaves because they could handle the heat better. This is indisputable. Slave traders specifically targeted Africa because it's climate was simliar to that of the South.
Now I have heard numerous broadcasters and players make similar remarks about hispanics and not a peep was ever made.
(Things like Pedro pitches better in the summer because he grew up in the Dominican or Bartolo is not a good cold weather pitcher because he is not used to it etc).
No one seems to think that those comments are racist, so why the fervor over Dusty's comments?

[WMR]

I think b/c Dusty has played the race card in the past, people are highly critical/aware of anything he says in regards to race.

[Moosie52]

Dusty Baker. Oh well, it's not like the Reds were going anywhere anyway.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

.....Hate to get into a heated discussion about this on this board, but Bakers silly comment that black and hispanic players are better suited for the heat than white players is not racist. He was dumb to make them, but they are not racist.....


Dusty makes a lot of dumb statements, dude. You will hear plenty of them over the next three years, man.

[Slyder]

what will Marty say to Dusty when Dusty calls the press box to complain about the way he is picking on his players? Or when Dusty has his players call the booth?

You mean like "Adam from Milwaukee" :thumbup:.

Anyways I'm not the biggest fan of Dusty but the way Wayne has been in the time he's been here with the young pitchers I'm sure, short anyone possibly throwing a no hitter, Wayne will have the reigns to set limits on who throws more than they should (including Harang and Arroyo).

[stevekun]

Dusty makes a lot of dumb statements, dude. You will hear plenty of them over the next three years, man.

We are used to that...some Reds fans do the same

[Natty Redlocks]

Hi Dusty, 'tis of thee
King of Stupidity
Of thee I sing
Man who made Cubs fans cry
And killed that Prior guy
Reds fans, do not blink an eye
Let's see dumb things

[IowaRed]

Hi Dusty, 'tis of thee
King of Stupidity
Of thee I sing
Man who made Cubs fans cry
And killed that Prior guy
Reds fans, do not blink an eye
Let's see dumb things

Natty, you are still the king

[TheWalls]

So I take it you liked Dusty? :thumbup:

Anywho... Please no Dusty, he's not quite the statue Jerry was in the dugout but he's far from a firey personality. I want someone with the fire in the belly or willing to get creative to try to win (like Sweet Lou and the Flubs).

We now have a manager with the same weaknesses as the team: inability to manage a pitching staff, lacak of emphasis on defense and awful situational hitting.

[SMcGavin]

"Originally Posted by Blue
I think the criticism with regard to overruse of pitchers and his preference for veterans is overrated.

Wood had arm problems before Dusty came (TJ surgery in '99) and Prior has only been injured once in a non-freak play during the regular season (the rest of his injuries occurred during Spring Training).

As for his preference for veteran players, I'm not sure he has had much young talent to work with, so his use of veterans was out of necessity. I could be wrong about that, as I haven't looked back to be sure, but I'm not thinking of any young player that he wrongfully held back.

The concerning thing to me is that we will turn to small ball, and his comments about walks are not encouraging. But, its not difficult to change your mind about something like that. If the Reds have reason to believe that he no longer discourages walks, I think its a really good hire."

The fact that no one has posted a response says it all.

Is that supposed to be a supportive post of Baker? You basically said:
1. It wasn't his fault Prior and Wood got hurt (I disagree here but this is still the best of your points)
2. You admit that Dusty has played lots of vets in the past, but say he might start playing youngsters once he has some talented ones. So in your best case scenario, he is neutral towards young players.
3. You admit that Dusty discourages walks, but you think the Reds can get him to change his mind.

Why don't we just hire someone who:
1. Has no track record of injured young pitchers.
2. Has experience handling young players.
3. Has not made past statements that display a total lack of knowing how to produce runs.

What I got out of your post was that if Dusty changes a lot of his prior philosphies, he might be a good hire. I think it's unlikely, but if it happens, I would agree with you. But doesn't it make more sense to hire a guy who already has the three things I listed? Your optimism is commendable, but I just don't see it.

[SMcGavin]

Dusty makes a lot of dumb statements, dude. You will hear plenty of them over the next three years, man.

Well played, man.

In this instance I don't have a problem with what Dusty said. It would be pretty silly to call it "racist". It was still a stupid thing to say, since he should have anticipated the media overblowing things as they typically do. But it doesn't make him a bad guy.

[Degenerate39]

Brennaman: Baker a solid choice
Broadcaster says team 'committed to getting this thing right'
BY SHANNON RUSSEL

The Reds’ move to bring in a big-name manager shows the country that the organization is committed to producing a winning product.

That’s veteran broadcaster Thom Brennaman’s take on new Reds manager Dusty Baker.

Brennaman spent years with the Arizona Diamondbacks and Chicago Cubs and continues to do major league postseason telecasts for FOX. He shared his views on the national impact of Baker’s hiring before Wayne Krivsky and Bob Castellini introduced the manager at today’s press conference in Great American Ball Park.

“He was a great player. He’s been a very, very successful manager. Has he won the World Series? No. Has he gotten to the World Series? Yeah,” Brennaman said. “I saw him a lot in my 11 years in Arizona when he was managing the Giants. The job he did there was second to none of anybody in all of baseball. I think it sends a great signal to all of baseball that the Reds are committed to getting this thing right.”

Brennaman has known Baker for years and describes him as an ideal mix between a successful leader and a player’s coach.

He brushed off popular criticisms – that Baker has mishandled pitchers, particularly Cubs hurlers Kerry Wood and Mark Prior – and called such comments “unfair.”

“To begin with, they had injury problems before Dusty got there. The second part of it is you really can’t have it both ways. In Chicago they haven’t been to a World Series since 1945. And he was trying to ride those horses as hard as he could to get them to a World Series in 2003,” Brennaman said.

“Would he do it differently now? Perhaps. But I don’t think it’s a fair indictment on him that he can’t handle the pitchers as it pertains to Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.”

Brennaman said Baker was the most accomplished manager available. The bottom line, he said, is that Baker is a great fit for the Reds.

“As far as length of time and success, Dusty was the best guy for the job,” Brennaman said.

BAKER FAN: Chuck Harmon, the first African-American to play for the Reds in 1954, couldn’t have been happier with the Reds’ managerial selection.

Decked out in a red jacket with a Reds hat and cane, Harmon was among those who applauded Baker upon his introduction. Baker is the Reds’ first African-American manager.

When asked about Cincinnati progress in race relations, Baker said: “Hopefully there will come a time when you no longer look at me as an African-American manager or leader. You look at me as a man and a leader that’s going to lead your team regardless of who I am.”

Harmon said Baker can’t worry about what people think of him, or he’ll “end up in the grave still worrying about” himself.

“For every person that doesn’t like you, there are 10 or more that do,” Harmon said.

MACKANIN: Krivsky said former interim manager Pete Mackanin was a serious contender for the position, and there will be a place in the Reds organization if Mackanin “thinks it’s the best place for him.”

Mackanin has said he wants to pursue a big-league coaching job, but is open to returning as part of Baker’s staff. Baker said today he hasn’t discussed personnel issues yet.

LEWIS’ TAKE: Bengals coach Marvin Lewis said he has yet to meet Dusty Baker, introduced earlier today as Reds manager, but added that he is "flattered" that Cincinnati has two African-American head coaches.

"It’s not a black thing nor a white thing," Lewis said. "Let’s win a lot of football and baseball games."Lewis referred to Baker as "accomplished" and said that he knew the Reds ownership, the Castellini family, is happy to have Baker in the fold and wants to win badly.

--Mark Curnutte

[WMR]

Yeah Marvin, feel free to start winning all those football games any time you please.

[AmarilloRed]

There is a very good thread on the ORG about Dusty's history with all the pitchers he has handled in the past. It is clear from that thread that he has always had high pitch counts with all the pitchers he has managed, and I would not expect that to change with the Reds. I fear that Arroyo, Harang, Bailey , and Cueto might suffer damage to their arms if there is not someone present who can curtail Dusty's excesses. Read that thread on the ORG, and you will see that there are plenty of starters who have had high pitch counts with Baker, not just Wood and Prior. The thread is called Dusty Baker's Pitch Count History. Pitch counts alone may not cause arm injuries, but they surely don't help.

[jimbo]

It is clear from that thread that he has always had high pitch counts with all the pitchers he has managed, and I would not expect that to change with the Reds. I fear that Arroyo, Harang, Bailey , and Cueto might suffer damage to their arms if there is not someone present who can curtail Dusty's excesses.

It is still a very debatable subject. IMO, if a pitcher's arm it going to break down, it's going to break down no matter how many pitches he throws per game. If there are physical flaws or he has poor mechanics, he is eventually going to face injuries no matter how many precautions you take.

There is no way there is "clear" evidence that would 100% prove that what happened with Prior and Wood is Baker's fault.

[AmarilloRed]

The problem is that he has a history of doing it with all the SP he has managed, not just Wood and Prior. It is a very debatable subject though, and I expect we will continue to debate it for some time to come.

[jimbo]

The problem is that he has a history of doing it with all the SP he has managed, not just Wood and Prior.

True, but the main criticism is that he is at fault for what happened to Prior and Wood. I don't remember any of his other starters having injury problems as Prior and Wood did. It's basically just speculation, although the argument is valid.


It is a very debatable subject though, and I expect we will continue to debate it for some time to come.

I have absolutely no doubt about that.

[SMcGavin]

It is still a very debatable subject. IMO, if a pitcher's arm it going to break down, it's going to break down no matter how many pitches he throws per game. If there are physical flaws or he has poor mechanics, he is eventually going to face injuries no matter how many precautions you take.

There is no way there is "clear" evidence that would 100% prove that what happened with Prior and Wood is Baker's fault.

Right, you can't prove 100% that it was Baker's fault. You can prove that those two guys threw a whole lot of pitches though, and neither's career has been the same since. I know, correlation does not equal causation, but I think it is difficult to make the case that Baker had nothing to do with those injuries. The truth is probably somewhere in between full responsibility and no responsibility.

I would be more willing to give him a pass for those injuries if I hadn't seen Prior's pitch counts for 2003. They are mind-boggling. We think of Harang as a horse who throws a lot of pitches, but he's never really been close to what happened to Prior that year.

[757690]

Actually, the pitch count stats on the pitchers that Baker had, show that pitch counts are over-rated. Two of the pitchers with high pitch counts burned out (Wood, Prior), two didn't (Zambrano, L. Hernandez). All four of the the ones with lower pitch counts burned out, although some burned out later than others.
These facts are that Baker uses some pitcher longer than others, and has no problem running up the pitch counts on some young pitchers.
However, these facts also show that a certain percentage of pitchers are going to blow out their arms, no matter how you handle them.
I have a feeling that a larger sample will show different results, but the facts presented on the ORG do not prove that Baker ruins arms.

[ThirdBaseCoach]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariottiweb/603136,mariotti101407.article

have a look