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TC81190
10-14-2007, 04:11 PM
Down 20-7 in the 3rd! TO THE CHIEFS!

The point at which I stopped being sad about this ended about 2 to 3 weeks ago. Now...all I can do is well... :laugh:

goreds2
10-14-2007, 04:16 PM
At halftime today, Boomer E. said it would be a flag football game.

goreds2
10-14-2007, 05:02 PM
KC 27
Cin. 10

in the 4th qtr.

LawFive
10-14-2007, 06:51 PM
The Bengals have gone to the crapper, and the Reds have been there for a while. UC Football looks to have a good season, but prob still tough times for BB. It's gettin difficult to stay a sports fan in this town.

GoReds33
10-14-2007, 07:01 PM
The Bengals have gone to the crapper, and the Reds have been there for a while. UC Football looks to have a good season, but prob still tough times for BB. It's gettin difficult to stay a sports fan in this town.I think I will always be a sports fan. Maybe I will be a lifer Reds fan. I am not going to be one of those people who waits 60 years fof a world championship though. Throw me a bone here.:)

CTA513
10-14-2007, 07:09 PM
Keep playing like this and they can get a top 10 (possibly top 5) draft pick.

TC81190
10-14-2007, 08:09 PM
Keep playing like this and they can get a top 10 (possibly top 5) draft pick.

You could get one helluva corner that high in the draft.

Yachtzee
10-14-2007, 09:02 PM
You could get one helluva corner that high in the draft.

Or maybe they might learn that football games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage and draft players who can control it on offense AND defense. No more RBs and DBs.

KronoRed
10-14-2007, 09:03 PM
You could get one helluva corner that high in the draft.

Have to go WR or RB :cool:

CTA513
10-14-2007, 10:12 PM
You could get one helluva corner that high in the draft.

Im hoping if they get a good draft pick that they use it on the defensive line.

joshnky
10-14-2007, 10:16 PM
You could get one helluva corner that high in the draft.

A bad season that leads to an impact draft (maybe Glenn Dorsey?) could pay huge dividends the next few years.

Drafting top ten or five means you can draft one player from the top tier and one from the second tier at the top of the second round. Its a lot more difficult to draft in the second half of the round.

WMR
10-14-2007, 10:26 PM
Mmmmmm Glenn Dorsey :drool:

WVRed
10-14-2007, 10:36 PM
Mmmmmm Glenn Dorsey :drool:

As much as I would love to see Dorsey in Bengal stripes, I don't think it will happen unless the Bengals tank out. The rest of the schedule is going to be a lot easier.

While the Bengals need defense, another position that I think needs to be taken into account is running back. Rudi isn't getting any younger and is starting to become more injury prone, and Kenny Watson, Kenny Irons, and Chris Perry are not long term answers. If Darren McFadden or Steve Slaton slip, they should be considered.

WMR
10-14-2007, 10:46 PM
It would be an unpopular pick, sort of like Detroit drafting another WR in last year's draft, but McFadden would be an awesome addition.

Yachtzee
10-14-2007, 10:50 PM
As much as I would love to see Dorsey in Bengal stripes, I don't think it will happen unless the Bengals tank out. The rest of the schedule is going to be a lot easier.

While the Bengals need defense, another position that I think needs to be taken into account is running back. Rudi isn't getting any younger and is starting to become more injury prone, and Kenny Watson, Kenny Irons, and Chris Perry are not long term answers. If Darren McFadden or Steve Slaton slip, they should be considered.

I'd rather they save the RB pick for later in the draft. My feeling is that, with the current state of the Bengals, they really need to look for top players for the defensive front 7 or OL. They're losing the battle in the trenches and without good players there, they're not going to change. I'd rather see how Irons comes back and draft an RB in the lower rounds. A good RB can be found in the draft, but if his OL stinks, he's not going anywhere.

BoydsOfSummer
10-14-2007, 10:52 PM
:ughmamoru

joshnky
10-14-2007, 10:52 PM
As much as I would love to see Dorsey in Bengal stripes, I don't think it will happen unless the Bengals tank out. The rest of the schedule is going to be a lot easier.

While the Bengals need defense, another position that I think needs to be taken into account is running back. Rudi isn't getting any younger and is starting to become more injury prone, and Kenny Watson, Kenny Irons, and Chris Perry are not long term answers. If Darren McFadden or Steve Slaton slip, they should be considered.

Help me out... was Kenny Irons injury prone in college? I'd love to see McFadden or Slaten but next year the Bengals will just have to count on one of the big three staying healthy. Their biggest needs are at defense and tight end and there will be no excuse if they go another offseason without addressing them. Besides, Slaten has been extremely injury prone (and fumble prone) throughout his career.

macro
10-15-2007, 12:25 AM
Did anyone else see Chad jerk away from Marvin while he was trying to talk to him on the sidelines today? Look familiar?

WMR
10-15-2007, 12:28 AM
It could have been T.O. in Philly.

Chad's antics don't play very well when the team isn't winning.

macro
10-15-2007, 12:54 AM
Publicly chewing out your quarterback one week and then publicly disrespecting the head coach shouldn't play well anytime. I can tolerate his childish nonsense to a point, but when things aren't going well (which has been often these past two seasons -- they're 6-12 in their last 18), he really comes across as a cancer. I'm not part of the team, so I don't know, but I suspect he's been causing problems ever since his halftime blowup during the Pittsburgh playoff game loss.

Cedric
10-15-2007, 05:27 AM
Publicly chewing out your quarterback one week and then publicly disrespecting the head coach shouldn't play well anytime. I can tolerate his childish nonsense to a point, but when things aren't going well (which has been often these past two seasons -- they're 6-12 in their last 18), he really comes across as a cancer. I'm not part of the team, so I don't know, but I suspect he's been causing problems ever since his halftime blowup during the Pittsburgh playoff game loss.

His halftime blowup during the Pittsburgh game was dead on. He's incredibly passionate and smart. People don't realize how smart Chad is. TJ likewise. They both know that their window is closing and I honestly don't think they respect their leader. And should they? He hasn't earned it. I'm not 99% sure, I'm 100% he's lost the locker room. And Chad and TJ aren't the bad one's. Everyone is. Marvin is seen as an incompetent and four years of colossal blunders is part of that. The way he throws players under the bus is another.
I'm not gossiping. I just happen to be great friends with a recent, former player. It's uglier than it ever has been and it's not gonna end good at all.

Some are mad at Chad for being frustrated? Some are mad at TJ for being frustrated? Oh is that laughable to me. I think my post below will prove that. I weave in and out of thoughts, so I apologize in advance. But I think it's a sad portrait of a man in WAY over his head.
`I would laugh at Marvin if I was Chad. He's proven with his actions that he is not competent or worthy of this job. I've said that since it became apparent his draft picks and free agent decisions have been consistently wrong. I have questioned almost every draft/free agent decision since the minute Chris Perry had his name called. Since that moment this franchise has been completely ran into the ground and only Carson, TJ, and Chad are keeping us from 2001. I'm almost reminded of the heyday of Harold Green, Jeff Blake, and Carl Pickens. Honestly Chad and TJ should be doing whatever they can to get out of here. Their window is shrinking everyday and the team they play for is ran by an arrogant coach who deflects blame on everyone but himself. From the outside he looks like the exact opposite of what a leader should be like. His draft picks alone show that he has no idea how to build a winning team. Football is the ultimate team sport. Yes you must have talent, but without a fundamental feeling of a true family you can never accomplish tasks when they get the most difficult. Anyone remember halftime after Carson got his knee broken? That alone shows you that Marvin had no control or total respect from his players. You can see from his media interviews and his shameful blaming of everyone but himself that he has no idea how to build a team. Bill Belichick has earned the right to be short and sweet with the media. The fans those papers work for should obviously just trust in his work. Almost weekly Marvin owes us more than we get. And with the way he drafts criminals and players with shaky pasts he should be going out of his way to prove himself to us. I've never seen someone ride the wave of a 11-5 fluke(Kyle Orton/NFC north/ season so much

Sadly football is nothing like baseball. There is that gigantic gray area. We all know who is good in baseball. Football? We have to rely on reputation or the words of others unless we watch film like a loser. I do. What happens with college players and NFL players? The typical fan looks at end of year stats like sacks and tries to somehow correlate that to the worth of a player. Football doesn't work that way. Not even a little bit. There are players in this league that are a dime a dozen yet they are rewarded with superstar money. Rudi Johnson? Who couldn't run behind Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, and Eric Steinbach? NEVER pay big money for a RB unless they have home run potential. The signing of Rudi Johnson was just miserable. Steinbach or Rudi? Hmm seems easy right? Not with this staff.

What about the Offense? Do people ever blame the offense? They should. It's an inefficient offense. The vertical passing game of the past is no more. Even the Colts are using the dink and dunk to destroy teams. The Bengals? I can't remember us using that play right in front of the MIKE linebacker. How many times have the Bengals been 2nd and 4 or 2nd and 3 and blown it because of being so predictable? One yard up the middle and then a fifteen yard post into double coverage that gets tipped. Maintaining the clock and controlling the game is what wins in football. Not the run and gun style. The Rams won one super bowl that way and that was because they were lucky enough to control the clock with Faulk and they had a great defense. If the Bengals want to compete in the near future they MUST focus on being more efficient on offense and cutting Rudi Johnson.

I was on record stating how bad this team would be. It's not gonna get better anytime soon. They have no character or class and that stems from their arrogant, rude head coach. Sadly he will be around for a long, long time. If Bruce Coslet had to basically resign than we better get used to Marvin and his arrogant, idiotic draft picks every year. I truly feel this team has the least talent of any team in the NFL on defense. I said that before the year and nothing has changed my mind.

Leon Hall couldn't run with Dwayne Jarrett or get within five yards of Ted Ginn. I think that should raise a little bit of a red flag.

His drafting history is overall so bad if I posted it I think it would stink through your individual computer screen. The only picks he has hit with are the three obvious top players on the board (Carson, Joseph, Steinbach) no coach would have passed on those players when they fell. Steinbach was a shock. The other "good" picks were just a desperate coach risking his team and the arrests/suspensions prove that failure. Nobody else was gonna draft Henry, Nicholson, or Thurman that high. Oh well, here it goes.

03- The pre arrogant draft. Marvin goes with the character guys or the obvious choices. The only questionable pick is Washington because of his neck injury. But Marvin hadn't been treated like a god yet. He probably trusted his scouts and stayed within the framework more in this draft. Is it shocking to me that this was his only truly good draft? No, because he had obvious picks at every slot. Without Marvin having the luck of Carson graduating I would suggest he would have already been ran out of town. Not just disliked by a growing margin every week.

2003
1 Carson Palmer USC
2 Eric Steinbach Iowa
3 Kelley Washington Tennessee
4 Dennis Weathersby Oregon State
4 Jeremi Johnson Western Kentucky
5 Khalid Abdullah Mars Hill
6 Langston Moore South Carolina
7 Scott Kooistra North Carolina State
7 Elton Patterson Central Florida


2004
1 Chris Perry Michigan - Arrogant pick. Riding high on his 8-8 record Marvin tries to Belichick the draft. He drafts an injury prone RB with an attitude problem history at Michigan. Perry has about as much guts as the cowardly lion.
2 Keiwan Ratliff Florida - Keiwan Ratliff- Arrogant pick. Absolutely not enough speed to compete in the NFL. Marvin felt and said that his coaching of technique would be enough. Sure. Keiwan also is a sidebar to another of my rants about the poor coaching of the Bengals. Does special teams matter in football? I love Jim Tressel and I'm sure some of you know that. But does he have it wrong in treating special teams as 1/3 of a football game? Why is special teams so important? Field position. Did Keiwan flip the field one time for this team in three years? People used to openly laugh before he caught the ball knowing he would run backwards for three yards and try and get the corner. Usually the long snapper would run him down for a three yard gain. It became funny to me. Now what about our KOS? Is Shayne Graham cutting it? Is allowing the opposing team to receive the ball on at least the 30 yard line a viable option? I dunno, it seems like common sense that the closer you let the other team get to your goal line, the easier it is to score. But year after year we get to watch the opposing team start at the 35 and with our defense that might as well be the 50. In my old school football views, field position and the overall kicking game is more important than the 53 man. I don't care about lack of depth. I would either not pay for Shayne Graham or I would go with a 52 man roster. Basically I wouldn't go with Shayne Graham.
2 Madieu Williams Maryland - Sorta hit here. Overrated player also though.
3 Caleb Miller Arkansas- Another arrogant pick. Player that wasn't even considered a top five pick. Complete bust in the NFL and arguably one of the worst players in the league.
3 Landon Johnson Purdue- Decent player. Not bad for 3rd round pick. Nothing spectacular
4 Matthias Askew Michigan State - Surprise. Bad attitude and drugs.
5 Robert Geathers Georgia - completely overrated player. Marvin agrees to pay him 5.3 million a year later for no reason. Picks up 4 garbage sacks in one game and therefore gets a reputation as an every down player. He's not, never will be. The average fan trusts Marvin and thinks Geathers is honestly good. Sadly not true. I'll give Marvin credit though. This is obviously a good pick if you have enough common sense to not let his rare shining moments blind you from his true abilities.
4 Stacy Andrews Mississippi- He's horrible. Watch the game today?
5 Maurice Mann Nevada - 5th round pick that literally was never heard from. NEVER.
6 Greg Brooks Southern Mississippi
7 Casey Bramlet Wyoming

2005
1 David Pollack Georgia - Very short arms. Tweener. Absolutely not a 1st round pick.
2 Odell Thurman Georgia - Surprise again. Bad attitude, terrible teammate, convict. Even when he played he played without discipline and disregarded the little things. Something Marvin Lewis doesn't realize. The guys with criminal histories and/or a history of getting kicked off their team probably aren't what you want to build a team around.
3 Chris Henry West Virginia - I don't need to say a word. He's the definition of why Marvin Lewis has no idea how to build a team.
4 Eric Ghiaciuc Central Michigan - 4th round. Really small and really bad. But it's not like Marvin ever hits with his drafts.
5 Adam Kieft Central Michigan
6 Tab Perry UCLA - Nice pick. Probably from Simmons. He's a very good coach no matter what crap talent he gets.
7 Jonathan Fanene Utah

2006
1 Johnathan Joseph South Carolina - Obvious pick. Good pick. Still surprised that a defensive "guru" wouldn't realize that 4 Deion Sanders would be worthless without a halfway decent push up the middle or pass rush off the edge. Oh well.
2 Andrew Whitworth Louisiana State - Another cap pick. Let's draft Whitworth and let Steinbach walk because we don't want to pay guards big money. We would rather pay short armed defensive ends that pad their stats week one against a drunk Damon Huard. He wasn't expecting to play. Half of the sacks Geathers and Smith get are coverage sacks against the Kyle Orton/Damon Huard/Charlie Frye's of the world. It's just sad that our coaches can't realize this like the average fan can. Steinbach then goes to Cleveland and is having a pro bowl year. He would easily be the best lineman on the team and his pulling guard capabilities were a huge part of our team. Whitworth or Andrews gonna pull for you now? I'm sure glad we resigned Willie over Steinbach. That's a smart move.

3 Frostee Rucker USC -Another player with sexual assault charge. Honestly nobody had him higher than 5th on any board. I would think a rape charge wouldn't move you up two rounds. Oh well, he's a Marvin guy and that's all we need to know. He's a 3rd round pick that has played in exactly two NFL games.
4 Domata Peko Michigan State - Nice pick. 5% landing percentage isn't bad is it?
5 A.J. Nicholson Florida State - Another guy with criminal past. Scout.com message boards and every Florida State fan knew about his sexual assault past. Rumors were also already out there about him being involved with a robbery of a TEAMMATE with Fred Rouse. Is this how you build a team? I honestly think this is when I realized we hired the absolute worst person for the overall task of winning a title and building a team we could all be proud of.
6 Reggie McNeal Texas A&M - Attitude problems in college. Well documented. Proceeded to always be in the center of Chris Henry or Odell Thurman's arrests
7 Ethan Kilmer Penn State
7 Bennie Brazell Louisiana State

2007
1 Leon Hall Michigan - Uh. I guess if you think the draft was weak you go Hall. Myself? I watch film and realize he doesn't have NFL closing speed. Another point? Without a pass rush he doesn't have the ability to succeed in the NFL. Hell, only Deion can work without a pass rush. Will be shocked if this turns out to be a good pick. Geoff Hobson and Marvin just love his attitude and work ethic. I guess they had to choir boy after years of embarrassing them self. Again, if Dwayne Jarrett runs by you easily that means you aren't a top pick. Michigan has a miserable secondary and rarely do their db's progress once on campus. Mundy, Shazor, Brown, Harrison and about ten others come to mind. I'm damn glad of that usually, not here though. Maybe Michigan just doesn't evaluate talent like they should and neither do the Bengals. That would explain why Ohio State turns 2 and 3 * Db's into top NFL picks. Hell, they can turn a career WR into one in about six weeks (Gamble). Sorry for going off subject, I just love talking about the coaching difference at OSU and Michigan. I digress.

2 Kenny Irons Auburn - Another injury prone RB. Do you draft that in the 2nd round when you did NOTHING in the off season to enhance your defense? Of course not. Why did the Bengals then? Because Marvin is arrogant and actually believed he could turn water into wine. Not surprisingly he was sadly mistaken and we know the story on Irons. Arrogance is a big theme with Marvin Lewis. It's my reasoning for his failure as an NFL coach. The only reason I could have even thought this move was halfway decent was if Rudi Johnson is getting cut next year. Now you can't cut Rudi unless you trust Watson and DeDe Dorsey. I would prefer that until Irons/Perry gets healthy. Paying big money for a RB in the NFL is just plain idiotic unless it's the absolute top tier home run hitter. 3.8 yards with no receiving skills is about as pointless as it comes for that kind of cash. Hopefully the Bengals take the cap hit this year and avoid the bigger hit in 09 or pay him until 2010.
4 Marvin White TCU - Nobody had him going this high. Marvin loved how he hit though. He's now behind a 7th rounder that couldn't play on Notre Dame's defense. Is that scary for a 4th rounder or what? But he sure can hit hard. I guess if this 1963 we might be onto something. In 2007 you better be able to cover in space or you will get picked apart into shreds. Destroyed. Watch his NFL.com draft tape and you can tell he's either a tiny linebacker or out of the NFL in 3 years. I'm voting he goes the Maurice Mann route. Marvin who?
5 Jeff Rowe Nevada - good teams find depth here. good teams don't waste a 5th round pick on someone that literally should never play a snap. Do the Bengals have the talent and depth level to draft Jeff Rowe in the 5th round? Of course not. It's just the way of Marvin. Doesn't make a damn bit of sense. But I think I'm somewhat proving the guy makes little sense most of the time. If he was a Reds gm or manager he would be roundly disliked. He's just lucky we made the playoffs and the fans here have no expectations.
6 Dan Santucci Notre Dame
7 Chinedum Ndukwe Notre Dame- The fact that he is on the roster and playing should be the ultimate sign in the talent level of this franchise. My friends that root for Notre Dame claim he is one of the worst 2 year starters in the history of the program. He got benched his senior year at times. He is 200 lbs and can't cover in space nor tackle. I really have no clue what he does but take up one of the minimum 11 players we need. I guess that's why he is out there. I've talked to someone that used to play a HUGE part in the UC football program and then later was at Notre Dame during Ndukwes time there. He told me at Mulligans some time ago that he couldn't believe Ndukwe got drafted. Said he thought he wouldn't get drafted in a 14 round draft.


I'm a bitter fan, not angry or trying to be mean spirited though. I'm just like many on the ORG about Dusty Baker. This team is in shambles and it will be for the recent future because of Marvin Lewis. People complain about injuries to me and all I do is smile and just say "ok".
Did Artrell Hawkins keep the Patriots from being seconds away from the Super Bowl? This is the NFL. EVERY team is decimated with injuries. The Bengals just draft so incredibly bad that they have no room for error and no depth. Free agency has been an utter disaster in the depth department also.
I'll just go over a few off the top of my head that are laughable and generic. I know that I hated almost every one of these moves at the time they occurred. I knew every player signed and Geoff Hobson wasn't going to fool me.

Dexter Jackson- Terrible in space and possibly could outrun Reggie Kelly. Doesn't wrap on tackles and usually talks trash when we are down big. At least he tries to be a leader or get fired up. I'll give him an A for effort also. I'm just sorry that I couldn't care less about effort at the professional level.

Edge Hartwell- Seriously. Why did we even waste the time? Proof Marvin was desperate and knew that his "execution" mantra was bs. The Bengals don't have any defensive talent. Being in the right spot and execution is part of being a talented player Marvin.

Antonio Chatman- Horrendous. Marvin gushed about his amazing return skills when he's clearly not even average. He had one lucky punt return and again that stat blinded Marvin. I seriously doubt he remembers that the Punter out kicked his coverage and Chatman had the best wall I've ever seen. I'm a UC grad, I remember on Sunday ticket. That was back when that Packers were about as talented as the Bengals are now. Other than that 85 yard run Chatman has never had a return longer than 37. He's had 6 catches in two years and about 8 drops. But Marvin loved him.

Sam Adams- That worked out about as well as Napoleon's invasion of Russia.

Kim Herring- Seeing the Raven pattern? I guess Marvin forgot that these guys were either grossly overweight or just products of a system. Kim Herring wasn't even good in Baltimore. That says about all you need to know.


Nate Webster- Surprise again. Ex Miami and Marvin talks about Ray Lewis. I will admit that injuries really derailed Nate. He looked abysmal before them though. He's still hanging around somewhere though in the NFL. Not bad by the usual Marvin standard.

Nick Luchey- Changed his name. Wasn't good under either name.

Anthony Mitchell- Just another terrible safety along the Dexter Jackson line. He actually shouldn't be called terrible. He made one or two plays.

Kevin Hardy- Slower than Sam Adams is now. He really was.

Carl Powell- Not a bad pickup. Decent depth. But an ex Redskins player. Sorta like the Wayne and Twins fetish. To me it's somewhat a sign of weakness in evaluation and not just saying you have familiarity. But that's just me.

John Thornton- Somewhat the epitome of this franchise. A player that should never be a 3 down player. Is it any surprise the Bengals get gashed no matter who teams with Thornton? He sounds like a great guy, but he is an absolute failure at controlling the line of scrimmage or getting any penetration. Justin Smith and Robert Geathers deserve the same kind of blame for this. I can count on one hand the times they have disrupted the rhythm of the opposing teams running game. What have the Bengals done with this quartet of lineman though? They have extended them all and tried to fool fans into thinking that the secondary is the problem. I just don't know if Marvin Lewis is truly this inflexible and incompetent? Or is he just arrogant and not willing to change?


Tory James- No argument here. Though he was afraid of contact he was a great signing and gave me some faith in Marvin right away. Stinks though. By the playoff year I already knew Marvin was the wrong guy. I still enjoyed the ride and just prayed he would hire Wade Phillips or someone that would switch to the 3-4. He got even more arrogant and that was the end of any hope with Marvin. He's proven to be a horrible leader for more than arrogance alone. Though that is key. Arrogance makes you inflexible, arrogance makes you lazy. The fact of the matter is that we have a man with sub par evaluating skills who is running this franchise. And because of Carson and the fluke of 05 we are stuck with little hope. Marvin himself needs a miracle.

Patrick Johnson- Another Raven who wasn't any good.

Some of this can be blamed on Mike Brown turning Cincinnati into NFL Siberia. I'd say he deserves most of the blame for the free agency part. But Marvin was the one that publicly was adamant about not overpaying just because we had a history of being terrible. He didn't wanna mess up the future. Like imagine what would have happened if we would have went for broke at the beginning? We might not have all the talent we have now and the great depth/roster structure.

Cedric
10-15-2007, 05:50 AM
Or maybe they might learn that football games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage and draft players who can control it on offense AND defense. No more RBs and DBs.

What a novel idea! Who would have thunk it? Would you waste precious salary cap money on a position where Artrell Hawkins can almost get to the super bowl?

I'm not being a snob, but yes I am. I don't think football fans have half the true knowledge of the sport as baseball fans do. Why is that? I think a little part of that is in my post above. There is a HUGE gray area in football and I even believe announcers/so called experts are utterly clueless.

I've been screaming for three years that David Carr was terrible, not the Texans pass blocking. Who took the blame though? The line. Why? Because in football fans/announcers/experts just look at stats and it's the ultimate team game. There are correlating factors that never seem to be considered. David Carr made his line terrible because he couldn't get through his progressions fast enough and he played like the average Jeff Tedford Qb. But god I heard that Matt Schaub was gonna get murdered this year every second. He has a little, but overall he's made a huge difference on the team.

TJ is sorta the same type thing. I don't think people remember when TJ was HATED by Cincy fans. I mean hated. He caught punts at the 3, just did absolutely stupid stuff. As soon as Carson came along and we actually had an accurate Qb TJ got good. That is what happened. TJ just at 25 suddenly learned how to play. It had nothing to do with a Qb knowing what he is doing.

I'm ranting tonight. I apologize. I'm just so frustrated with the Bengals and the Reds tonight. At least the Reds have young talent and seemingly are willing to gamble on a big name manager. I'm just glad I'm a lifelong Buckeye fan with ties to the University. Without that I would probably do nothing but watch the Coca Cola championship final on DVR anytime I watch tv l :)

macro
10-15-2007, 09:44 AM
Outstanding posts, Cedric, and thanks for taking the time to share all of that. Like I said, my perspective is from the outside looking in, so I'll readily defer to someone who knows more. I think you'll agree, though, that it would be natural for the typical fan to tune in on Sunday, see Chad chewing someone, and make a surface judgement of the situation.

Your posts need to be heard on some of the Bengals boards. There are plenty of critics on the two I read, especially given the 1-4 start, but there is still that core that is still in line for more Kool-Aid and will defend the organization to the bitter end.

BUTLER REDSFAN
10-15-2007, 12:22 PM
I stopped watching after the Cleveland game...it's better on my blood pressure..however i will turn the radio on and listen for about 5 minutes just to get a feel to see how its going...i listened on the radio for about 10 minutes yesterday..as i turned the radio on KC had just scored,3 minutes later Carson fumbled, 5 minutes later he threw an interception...listened long enough to hear the bye hadn't helped any at all...another 3-13 season in the works....ended up watching The Odd Couple on TCM

flyer85
10-15-2007, 01:56 PM
wow, much angst in Bengal land. Winning is about acquiring talent through the draft. It is why Pittsburgh and Baltimore just tend to reload. They have front offices in place that can find the guys to play in their systems.

CTA513
10-15-2007, 02:47 PM
wow, much angst in Bengal land. Winning is about acquiring talent through the draft. It is why Pittsburgh and Baltimore just tend to reload. They have front offices in place that can find the guys to play in their systems.




:thumbup:

Javy Pornstache
10-15-2007, 03:34 PM
Ced, you're absolutely 100% on the mark. That's all I got to say.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-15-2007, 04:03 PM
Great post Ced!

I have been making similar points about Marvin, but not nearly as perfect as you just did. Great work.

Marvin is in way over his head.

Matt700wlw
10-15-2007, 05:30 PM
My Sundays may become more productive...I refuse to let this team ruin my winter.

Matt700wlw
10-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Great post Ced!

I have been making similar points about Marvin, but not nearly as perfect as you just did. Great work.

Marvin is in way over his head.

I think anybody who works for Mike Brown is in over their head...


He's the only constant since 1991.....the first year of the debacle they've become.

RedsFan75
10-15-2007, 05:39 PM
My Sundays may become more productive...I refuse to let this team ruin my winter.

Same here. I didn't watch yesterday, and had a great day.

WMR
10-15-2007, 07:29 PM
Cedric, that was some wild, stream-of-consciousness stuff... a really good read and I think your take is spot-on, unfortunately.

WVRed
10-15-2007, 11:20 PM
Cedric, as much as we disagree about UC, we certainly agree on the Bengals.:thumbup:

I will say one thing about the Chris Perry pick though, even though it has been picked apart by every Bengals fan alive. In 2005, Perry led the entire NFL in receptions by a running back., which isn't bad when you consider that he only played second fiddle to Rudi. He provided a nice change of pace back and to the passing attack on third down. I think the pick could have been used a lot better, most notably on Chris Gamble, who I thought at the time was very raw and would have taken a lot longer to develop.

I have a feeling that if things continue the way they are going this season, Marvin will finally take action and will bench Chad for the remainder of the season, especially if he has another blowup. If he does, the fallout could be very taxing for the team and the future of the Bengals.

macro
10-16-2007, 02:09 AM
Same here. I didn't watch yesterday, and had a great day.

I DVR'ed it and forwarded through most of it after-the-fact. I've become numb to the whole situation, and the loss didn't distract me one bit. I doubt I even record or otherwise pay attention to this Sunday's Jets game.

Cedric
10-16-2007, 03:14 AM
Cedric, that was some wild, stream-of-consciousness stuff... a really good read and I think your take is spot-on, unfortunately.

I'm not the best with grammar. I just write what I think and hope it makes sense.

Redsfaithful
10-16-2007, 03:23 PM
Cedric, really interesting stuff. Would love to hear more if you've got it, although that was pretty comprehensive.

GAC
10-16-2007, 10:21 PM
Overall good post Cedric, but I do have to disagree with you on a couple points....

#1 - I don't care who you are, or how "passionate" one may be - there are alot of passionate players in sports - no player should be allowed to get away with publically dressing down and humiliating your QB, head coach, or any player. There's a time and place for it, and it's not on that playing field.

And lets look at those situations this year where Johnson has gone off. Is it always someone else's fault? Can't some of it be laid at the feet of Johnson? I've listened to both Brad Johansen and Dave Lapham state that Chad is guilty of not finishing routes, that even as a receiver he has to learn to switch roles and play defender, and that he gets frustrated and gives up on plays. The ball didn't get to him, maybe it results in an INT. It's always someone else's fault? From Johnson's actions it appears that way.

He can't let that passion take him out of his game and effect others in a negative way.

As for Marvin, I agree with what Johansen said yesterday on WLW..... Marvin is guilty of always trying to put a positive spin on what is going on this year. For instance in the Sunday loss to K.C., Marvin states they outscored them in the second half. Big deal! He also stated you can't keep using injuries as an excuse. Every team has injuries.

Hasn't it been leveled at Marvin that he is not a very good disciplinarian or exercising the type of control any team needs in that clubhouse? Very indecisive. I'm not going to speculate because I'm not in that clubhouse. But that "lack" may be why guys like Johnson are getting away with some of their antics.

I think Johnson is a very talented receiver. But what some deem as passion, I see as emotionalism that is getting the best of him and is affecting this team. Does he think he is the only one on that team that has the "passion" to want to win and hates losing. I don't believe that, regardless of the hard times they are going through right now.

joshnky
10-16-2007, 10:36 PM
In thinking back to 2005, I've been wondering why we've taken a step back. This is my analysis of the situation:

1) The offense has stumbled without Chris Perry and Henry. I know there have been difficulties along the OLine and with Rudi but I really feel like Perry and Henry are the missing link. Hopefully, they can turn things around for the Bengals with Perry back (hopefully) and Henry back in two weeks.

2) The defense hid behind turnovers. 2005 didn't feature a great defense but a unit that gave up yards while forcing an obscene amount of turnovers. We were also much deeper at LB that year.

3) The lack of progress for Palmer. This may be controversial but it seems to me that Palmer has failed to take that next step to the top tier of NFL QBs who refuse to lose regardless of the circumstances. Maybe its coaching, injuries, or luck but Brady and Peyton have won though it all while Palmer has "struggled" with adversity. Granted he is still a top 5 QB this year but I can't see where he has improved much from the 2005 campaign.

4) The spate of injuries has depleted the depth and really taken a toll on special teams. The Bengals continued to carry Tab Perry and Kilmer on the active roster hoping they would get healthy before ending there seasons today.

I don't know but it seems like the Bengals were basically the same .500 team in 2005 just with better look than they're having now (injuries, turnovers). Maybe its coaching, drafts, the Browns, or whatever else you want to complain about but it seems like a "lucky" season in 2005 set the bar high for subsequent years and the Bengals remain the same .500 team.

I hate to say it but it may take a dismantling of the offense to rebuild the defense and get the team over the hump.

hebroncougar
10-16-2007, 11:01 PM
In thinking back to 2005, I've been wondering why we've taken a step back. This is my analysis of the situation:

1) The offense has stumbled without Chris Perry and Henry. I know there have been difficulties along the OLine and with Rudi but I really feel like Perry and Henry are the missing link. Hopefully, they can turn things around for the Bengals with Perry back (hopefully) and Henry back in two weeks.

2) The defense hid behind turnovers. 2005 didn't feature a great defense but a unit that gave up yards while forcing an obscene amount of turnovers. We were also much deeper at LB that year.

3) The lack of progress for Palmer. This may be controversial but it seems to me that Palmer has failed to take that next step to the top tier of NFL QBs who refuse to lose regardless of the circumstances. Maybe its coaching, injuries, or luck but Brady and Peyton have won though it all while Palmer has "struggled" with adversity. Granted he is still a top 5 QB this year but I can't see where he has improved much from the 2005 campaign.

4) The spate of injuries has depleted the depth and really taken a toll on special teams. The Bengals continued to carry Tab Perry and Kilmer on the active roster hoping they would get healthy before ending there seasons today.

I don't know but it seems like the Bengals were basically the same .500 team in 2005 just with better look than they're having now (injuries, turnovers). Maybe its coaching, drafts, the Browns, or whatever else you want to complain about but it seems like a "lucky" season in 2005 set the bar high for subsequent years and the Bengals remain the same .500 team.

I hate to say it but it may take a dismantling of the offense to rebuild the defense and get the team over the hump.

IMO, your #1 and #3 are directly related to the offensive line falling apart. Again, IMO, it all leads back to not resigning Eric Steinbach. Last year he was a trooper, filling in at C, and T. This year, the offensve line is lost without him. But we've got Justin Smith, and his "good motor". :rolleyes:

traderumor
10-17-2007, 06:03 PM
Gee, what an unpredictable pattern--losing year, coach is an idiot.

Ced, with all due respect, if I had a shekel for every "I know a recent former..." Name dropping, even without a name, is always in poor taste as support to lend credibility for one's own personal opinions.

Casey
10-17-2007, 06:34 PM
It has been painful to watch them this year (brings back horrible memories), but I'm still a fan and will always be a fan, just like with the Reds. I've been with them for too long to give up now.

Cedric
10-18-2007, 12:31 AM
Well I'm not really worried about taste. I'm worried about putting out info and allowing the reader to choose to believe it or not.

By the way, the coach isn't just the coach on this one. He makes EVERY decision for this team on the football field. Not comparable to people randomly blaming managers for all losses.

It's his players and it's his coaching. If the team isn't progressing who do you blame? Do you blame the players for their lack of talent and depth? I don't get who else there is to blame but him. He has failed this organization, IMO.

Cedric
10-18-2007, 12:34 AM
Gee, what an unpredictable pattern--losing year, coach is an idiot.

Ced, with all due respect, if I had a shekel for every "I know a recent former..." Name dropping, even without a name, is always in poor taste as support to lend credibility for one's own personal opinions.

And personally I think it's in worst taste to totally disregard my post because of the "losing year, coach is an idiot." line.

But I dunno, maybe you got some points to refute what I'm saying instead of just assuming I'm being irrational and a follower.

sonny
10-18-2007, 03:58 AM
Well I'm not really worried about taste. I'm worried about putting out info and allowing the reader to choose to believe it or not.

By the way, the coach isn't just the coach on this one. He makes EVERY decision for this team on the football field. Not comparable to people randomly blaming managers for all losses.

It's his players and it's his coaching. If the team isn't progressing who do you blame? Do you blame the players for their lack of talent and depth? I don't get who else there is to blame but him. He has failed this organization, IMO.

Agreed. Keeping Keiwan Ratliff for as long as he did really makes me question his talent evaluation skills. And that's not even mentioning his judge of character. While I don't forget the pitts that was the 90's, the current regime doesn't look all that much better right now. And theres so much more talent.

traderumor
10-18-2007, 09:46 AM
And personally I think it's in worst taste to totally disregard my post because of the "losing year, coach is an idiot." line.

But I dunno, maybe you got some points to refute what I'm saying instead of just assuming I'm being irrational and a follower.No, I disregarded your post when you prefaced it with "I know a recent former player." Plus, you also stated you were angry at the Bengals and Reds in the same post. So why sift through a lengthy post written by someone name-dropping and admittedly angry, which often leads to a skewed perspective in the here and now?

BuckeyeRedleg
10-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Read the entirety of the post. Skewed perspective? Hardly. You picked one part of the post and passed judgment on the rest. Is your beef really that he "name dropped" or it is that he called out a coach and an organization that has made many questionable moves? Your first line was how predictable it is that someone would call out a coach when the coach is losing. You then called him out for name dropping. Then you mention that you didn't bother reading the entire post, but of course, you felt compelled to slam it anyway. So what is it that really bothers you?

Is it that you don't like members of this board using their mind to form an opinion about how someone is doing their job?

I got more out of his one post, than I do out of hundreds I've sifted through on this site, but that doesn't mean I've felt the urge to call out the hundreds that I thought were uninformed or without substance.

I'm sure you know, but this is a "sports" message board where it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable for a fan or observer of sports to critique the moves (right or wrong) made by a sports organization, especially when it is done in such detail as in this post by Cedric. What this board isn't, is a "critiquing other's posts" message board. It would be nice if you could just contribute to the discussion, whether you agree or disagree with the topic at hand, without critiquing the way the message was conveyed.

Talk about a predictable pattern.

forfreelin04
10-18-2007, 12:35 PM
No, I disregarded your post when you prefaced it with "I know a recent former player." Plus, you also stated you were angry at the Bengals and Reds in the same post. So why sift through a lengthy post written by someone name-dropping and admittedly angry, which often leads to a skewed perspective in the here and now?

TradeRumor. I disagree. When I read Cedric's post earlier this week, I totally forgot about the name dropping the minute I read it. The rest of his history gathering insightful post was backed up with Marvin's faulty drafts. This bulk of his post had little to nothing to do with his former player reference. If you past it up, than you missed a great read. I even forwarded it to my father who has questioned Marvin's tactics well before this year's breakdown. What does ripping another poster down for his opinions accomplish for you? Why not refute his comment with evidence? We would expect the same when talking about the Reds.

traderumor
10-18-2007, 02:13 PM
TradeRumor. I disagree. When I read Cedric's post earlier this week, I totally forgot about the name dropping the minute I read it. The rest of his history gathering insightful post was backed up with Marvin's faulty drafts. This bulk of his post had little to nothing to do with his former player reference. If you past it up, than you missed a great read. I even forwarded it to my father who has questioned Marvin's tactics well before this year's breakdown. What does ripping another poster down for his opinions accomplish for you? Why not refute his comment with evidence? We would expect the same when talking about the Reds.I guessed I missed a great read, then. No one is trying to squash anyone from stating an opinion, but to try to give that opinion weight by saying "I know people" is personally objectionable. In other words, my right to state an opinion.

forfreelin04
10-18-2007, 02:32 PM
In response to Cedric's noteworthy post and others of similar value, I offer these reasons for the Bengals demise. Albeit, we could be singing a different tune by Week 12. The Bengals schedule is soft and a nice win at home versus the struggling Jets can be just what the doctor ordered. This team seems to respond best to momentum in either direction. Just like in a single football game, momentum rules. One big play or one big call (penalty or in favor of) can change the tide and outcome of the game. The Bengals seems to respond best or worse to the same mentality. This inability to have short term memories has contributed to the Bengals weary season. The only difference this year is the fact the momentum has been on the losing side at the beginning of the year. Say what you want, about the win on Monday Night. They easily could have lost that game. That being said, the Bengals will come up with a win on Sunday and run a stretch of 3 to 4 wins. Leaving them at 4-4 or 5-4. However, by the end of the year they will fall short at 8-8 again. Leaving people wondering what might have been during the games at Cleveland and Seattle. I don't categorize the KC game as being so because I never felt the Bengals had a legitamate chance at winning.

That being said, why can't the Bengals get it together? I think these three factors contribute to the downslide or perhaps inevitable downslide of the Bengals.

First
-Marvin Lewis is a bad evaluator of talent. Cedric hit this spot on and so did another poster. Eric Steinbach was due for big money he most assuredly should have received. Willie Anderson is and was on his last leg. Willie has been a staple of this franchise long before Palmer, but he is well on his way to fading fast. Steinbach, no doubt, was on the rise. But, instead of signing him to a long term deal they decided to pump the money into the likes of Geathers and Smith. As you can no doubt see in Cleveland, Steinbach is paying off. On the Bengals side, we have yet another faulty defense that cannot get a pass rush, and even if it does it is more than likely a coverage sack. Smith is a big game player. Look no farther than his performance last year at KC and at Denver. However, he is inconsistent and the money could have been spent on Steinbach. If the plan was to build a defense through the draft, the bulk of the money should have been spent to shore up the offense. Marvin declined to reason as such and spent on defense. This reasoning was much aligned with the signings of Kendrick Allen and Ed Hartwell, but then Marvin decides to cut ties with them right before the season starts? Unless, they were a problem in the locker room, I do think a couple veterans, at least for insurance purposes, could have made an impact. But, no Marvin goes with green NFL players instead. Which of course brings us to my second point.

2. Injuries.

People are pointing the finger at Chris Henry absence as a plausible reason for why the Bengals have struggled on offense. I do think it plays a role in allowing the Cover 2 to cause more problems, but I have seen Carson cut through it time and time again this year; enough to know he can handle the load without Henry. Look no farther, than the 4 or 5 play TD at KC to Housh in the first quarter for an example of that.

The problem to me is the injuries and suspensions on defense, specifically at linebacker. I feel we are receiving the brunt of the loss of David Pollack and Odell Thurman. Thurman was a high motor guy... albeit made some poor decisions in his rookie year, but someone who could fly around the football field and make high impact plays. Marvin acted like Thurman was an afterthought, but in all honesty I feel he was counting on him at least as a reliable backup the rest of the year. Our linebacker core, being so depleted would provide evidence for that notion. Which brings me to David Pollack, who will probably never return to football and even if he does, will probably never surface as the impact player he was supposed to be. Pollack would have provided an option for pass rush, and also had the speed to cover, and was a great wrap tackler. Between Thurman and Pollack, that is where Marvin thought he would make his impact on defense. It has not worked out that way, and what is left is scant at best even with the injuries. Now, I lay most of the blame for the defense on Chuck B because he continually is embarassed literally and figuratively at least three to four times a year by someone. He has a knack for making even the least capable Qb's look good.

3rd and final point- Trade Chad Johnson

Bare with me now, I'm not saying do that now. But, I felt he would have been valuable trade commodity this off season or the middle of last season. The only reason I would have not done so was because of Henry's career jeopardy. I truly feel we could lose some WR's and pick up where we left off. Carson is a Qb in the Manning, Brady mold, just without the rings. He has a rocket arm, capable of carrying the team on his back, and his accuracy can be scary good at times. In other words, I think Chad Johnson needs Carson more than Carson needs Chad. I say trade Chad instead of T.J. for two reasons. T.J. is more reliable and his usually very consistent throughout the year. Also, Chad can be the face of virtually any franchise he is traded too. I look at teams like SF, the Jets, Arizona, and Minnesota has franchises lacking a face to go with the team. Chad brings more than just numbers he brings in revenue. He could be traded for some ding ding ding DEFENSE!! Or at least a couple first rounders and an intregal defensive player. By doing this, Marvin frees up money to be spent other places. I look at Johnson as being the Edgerin James in Indy. Something that might put us over the top.

WMR
10-18-2007, 02:37 PM
The only bad thing about trading such talented players in the NFL is that you almost never receive comparable value in return. What would Chad Johnson bring in return? A 3rd round pick? Hopefully a 2nd? I don't think he would bring a first round draft pick, let alone two of them. It would free up cash to spend in other places, but trying to build this defense through free agency isn't the way to achieve success, IMO.

Plus, then all of a sudden, our WR corps has gone from a position of strength to a position of being average at best, below-average at worst.

Cedric
10-18-2007, 06:08 PM
I guessed I missed a great read, then. No one is trying to squash anyone from stating an opinion, but to try to give that opinion weight by saying "I know people" is personally objectionable. In other words, my right to state an opinion.

That was a VERY small part of my points. And I'm angry at the Reds and Bengals for runing such inept franchises. That doesn't mean I'm gonna make up stuff. I pointed out reasons this franchise is failing and most of it had nothing to do with "name dropping." If it's that big of a deal I'll say the name and possibly get him pissed off if somehow he reads/hears this. Sometimes you just gotta trust someone. Guess I don't have your trust.

WMR
10-18-2007, 06:12 PM
That was a VERY small part of my points. And I'm angry at the Reds and Bengals for runing such inept franchises. That doesn't mean I'm gonna make up stuff. I pointed out reasons this franchise is failing and most of it had nothing to do with "name dropping." If it's that big of a deal I'll say the name and possibly get him pissed off if somehow he reads/hears this. Sometimes you just gotta trust someone. Guess I don't have your trust.

I trust you, Cedric.

I just don't trust your judgment when it comes to college football. ;)

traderumor
10-18-2007, 06:50 PM
That was a VERY small part of my points. And I'm angry at the Reds and Bengals for runing such inept franchises. That doesn't mean I'm gonna make up stuff. I pointed out reasons this franchise is failing and most of it had nothing to do with "name dropping." If it's that big of a deal I'll say the name and possibly get him pissed off if somehow he reads/hears this. Sometimes you just gotta trust someone. Guess I don't have your trust.Personal pet peeve. Just shoulda kept my mouth shut and moved on, sorry that you are offended.

As for my position on the Bengals, I have been on record that this year smelled bad from the outset since we made no improvement on D, and injuries have made them horrible. I have also stated that this a soul-searching year for Marvin, to step back and see what, within his control, went wrong with the D and how to fix it. So far, he has seemed reluctant to admit failure and thus does not make wholesale changes. However, I do not have an overall negative opinion of Marvin because he has shown overall competence.

Cedric
10-18-2007, 08:07 PM
I trust you, Cedric.

I just don't trust your judgment when it comes to college football. ;)

Well you root for Kentucky. I don't trust you or like you.

jk :)

Cedric
10-18-2007, 08:08 PM
Personal pet peeve. Just shoulda kept my mouth shut and moved on, sorry that you are offended.

As for my position on the Bengals, I have been on record that this year smelled bad from the outset since we made no improvement on D, and injuries have made them horrible. I have also stated that this a soul-searching year for Marvin, to step back and see what, within his control, went wrong with the D and how to fix it. So far, he has seemed reluctant to admit failure and thus does not make wholesale changes. However, I do not have an overall negative opinion of Marvin because he has shown overall competence.

Not offended. I do understand your stance. Just surprised that would make you not read my post and give it a shot. No biggie.

WMR
10-18-2007, 10:05 PM
Well you root for Kentucky. I don't trust you or like you.

jk :)

:laugh:

That's understandable!! ;)

traderumor
10-19-2007, 10:02 AM
Well you root for Kentucky. I don't trust you or like you.

jk :)I acquired a new fondness for UK after their upset propelled the Buckeyes into the top spot. I also woke up this morning to see the BCS lovechild, USF, bit the dust early. What a crazy year. I say the Buckeyes will lose one or both of Penn State and Michigan road games, which will eliminate them and bring the one loss LSU, Oklahoma, USC, etc (you know, the class above all the rest ;) ).

Oops, this is a Bengals thread, they do still have a season to play.

Cedric
10-19-2007, 03:25 PM
I acquired a new fondness for UK after their upset propelled the Buckeyes into the top spot. I also woke up this morning to see the BCS lovechild, USF, bit the dust early. What a crazy year. I say the Buckeyes will lose one or both of Penn State and Michigan road games, which will eliminate them and bring the one loss LSU, Oklahoma, USC, etc (you know, the class above all the rest ;) ).

Oops, this is a Bengals thread, they do still have a season to play.

No way Traderumor. This Buckeye team will not get beat by Anthony Morelli. Put that on record.

Michigan? Again, don't see an innaccurate Qb like Chad Henne beating Ohio State. But Mike Hart is one tough SOB.