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View Full Version : Chad: I'm done celebrating TD's until the Bengals get back to .500



WMR
10-18-2007, 06:40 PM
I like hearing this out of Chad Johnson. Put the focus clearly back on righting this sinking ship.

Joseph
10-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Would be better if it was until they won a super bowl, but its a step in the right direction.

Hopefully he'd also done lamenting TDs that aren't his as well.

GoReds33
10-18-2007, 08:34 PM
I have no clue why he would celebrate in the first part of the season anyway. I really hope we may see a new side of Chad Johnson. Last year all that espn talked about was how Chad brought fun to the game, but how T.O. was a team distraction. I think they may have changed sides. T.O. seems to be well out of the spotlight this year, but Chad just can't stay out of it, even if it means his team losing games.

redsfanmia
10-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Chad must be tired of being footballs version of Stepit Fetchit.

Betterread
10-18-2007, 11:28 PM
Celebrating TDs? He has 28 TDs in the last 4 yrs. He should be grateful if he scores every other game, and he is in the prime of his career.
By comparison, Randy Moss has 32 TDs in the last 4 yrs, and he is on the downside of his career. When Randy Moss was in his prime he had 43 Tds in 3 yrs. Chad has 44 Tds in 7 yrs.
That is the difference in class.

GAC
10-18-2007, 11:50 PM
Thanks for letting us all know this breaking and very important news Chad. :rolleyes:

WMR
10-18-2007, 11:52 PM
Thanks for letting us all know this breaking and very important news Chad. :rolleyes:

:laugh:

Degenerate39
10-19-2007, 07:32 AM
No more chicken dances or river dances this year

HotCorner
10-19-2007, 09:49 AM
I have no clue why he would celebrate in the first part of the season anyway. I really hope we may see a new side of Chad Johnson. Last year all that espn talked about was how Chad brought fun to the game, but how T.O. was a team distraction. I think they may have changed sides. T.O. seems to be well out of the spotlight this year, but Chad just can't stay out of it, even if it means his team losing games.

Winning cures all!

HotCorner
10-19-2007, 09:51 AM
Celebrating TDs? He has 28 TDs in the last 4 yrs. He should be grateful if he scores every other game, and he is in the prime of his career.
By comparison, Randy Moss has 32 TDs in the last 4 yrs, and he is on the downside of his career. When Randy Moss was in his prime he had 43 Tds in 3 yrs. Chad has 44 Tds in 7 yrs.
That is the difference in class.

Are you imply that Randy Moss is classier than Chad? Or are you stating that Moss is in a different class than Chad for WR's?

RFS62
10-19-2007, 11:05 AM
So now he's a sad clown.

Still a clown, though.

http://volcanocom.com/redskelton-gallerycom/ushop/images/IT71_CVisioneerDocumentsSadWhtFCln.jpg

NorrisHopper30
10-19-2007, 11:14 AM
Celebrating TDs? He has 28 TDs in the last 4 yrs. He should be grateful if he scores every other game, and he is in the prime of his career.
By comparison, Randy Moss has 32 TDs in the last 4 yrs, and he is on the downside of his career. When Randy Moss was in his prime he had 43 Tds in 3 yrs. Chad has 44 Tds in 7 yrs.
That is the difference in class.

Moss was the only receiver on his team, while Chad shared TD's with Henry and Housh the past 4 years.

Who got more yards?

RedsManRick
10-19-2007, 01:10 PM
Moss was the only receiver on his team, while Chad shared TD's with Henry and Housh the past 4 years.

Who got more yards?

Jerry Porter, Nate Burleson, and Marcus Robinson weren't exactly scrubs. Who has Moss had throwing him the ball the last few years?

A breaking down Culpepper? Kerry Collins? Aaron Brooks? Not exactly Carson Palmer, eh?

durl
10-19-2007, 02:40 PM
Wow. How many times to your hear a player say that he'll not make a display? Johnson saying it is even more shocking.

Celebrations are a pretty controversial topic in sports. I wish there were less of them, actually. While watching a football game the other week, a defensive lineman made a tackle for a loss on 2nd Down and went about his celebration. On the next play (3rd and long), the defense gave up the first down. I thought that if he was going to celebrate, he should have waited until they finished the job!!

RedR8R
10-19-2007, 03:35 PM
This is the smartest thing that's come out of his pie hole in a long time. It's only funny if your winning and the Bungles haven't done any of that in a long time.

LoganBuck
10-19-2007, 05:23 PM
Moss was the only receiver on his team, while Chad shared TD's with Henry and Housh the past 4 years.

Who got more yards?

Cris Carter wasn't too bad either.

GAC
10-19-2007, 10:13 PM
Wow. How many times to your hear a player say that he'll not make a display? Johnson saying it is even more shocking.

Celebrations are a pretty controversial topic in sports. I wish there were less of them, actually. While watching a football game the other week, a defensive lineman made a tackle for a loss on 2nd Down and went about his celebration. On the next play (3rd and long), the defense gave up the first down. I thought that if he was going to celebrate, he should have waited until they finished the job!!

Exactly. I can understand the adrenalin rush that players have during the game. That, and the emotionalism, has been around a long time. Growing up I watched some of the biggest hitters in the game. From Butkus to Lambert. They did their job and didn't need to celebrate and call attention to themselves with these "It's all about me!" antics.

GoReds33
10-19-2007, 11:27 PM
Exactly. I can understand the adrenalin rush that players have during the game. That, and the emotionalism, has been around a long time. Growing up I watched some of the biggest hitters in the game. From Butkus to Lambert. They did their job and didn't need to celebrate and call attention to themselves with these "It's all about me!" antics.I really don't think it's about adrenalin. I think it has more to do with the persons attitude. Plain and simple, Chad has a me, me, me attitude. I usto pass it off, as most Bengal fans did, as being a player who just wanted to have fun, but he has lost all of my confidence. Why does it take antics to be the best? If Chad would shut his mouth for a while, his play would do all the talking.

Yachtzee
10-20-2007, 01:47 AM
I think Chad Johnson polarizes a lot of people outside the organization to the degree that they automatically look to him when the Bengals have issues. I don't think Chad's the real problem. I've heard that he's actually a good team guy and works hard with the other guys. Sometimes he gets a little distracted, but not to the degree that people want to make it out to be. To paraphrase Bobcat Goldthwait, blaming Chad Johnson for the Bengals' woes is like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger. He doesn't run the company. Now that he's gotten slapped upside the head in the press, he'll probably do what he always does and sit down with Carson to work on getting back on the same page.

I think the problem is that Marvin Lewis never really completed the job of weeding out the bad attitudes and I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the bad attitudes are ones who people actually believe to be the "right" kind of guys. For example, I've been skeptical of Big Willie since last year. Pro Bowl talent, but some of the things he says in the media just strike me as odd. There may be something to it when Corey Dillon called him out when he was leaving town. Rudi Johnson has raised red flags as well. TJ Houshmanzadeh is a hard worker, but he also has a mean streak that reminds me of Carl Pickens or Corey Dillon. If the team doesn't turn it around, I can see him becoming poisonous. Levi Jones, we've heard about. Justin Smith, I'm wondering about him too. Watch what these guys say and how they handle things in the next few weeks.

And if you want to see guys quit on plays, look no further than the defense. Seems like a lot of big plays have been given up because guys guess wrong and then give up on the play once they're out of position. The first and foremost problem with this team is that defense. They need to work on getting players on defense who will at least finish the play first. Then they need to work on them staying in position. It's like they've not progressed at all since Marvin took over.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:08 PM
Guess Chad changed his mind.

redsfanmia
11-25-2007, 03:13 PM
Guess Chad changed his mind.

Thats why the Bengals wont win until they get rid of him. Chad puts himself above the team.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:14 PM
Thats why the Bengals wont win until they get rid of him. Chad puts himself above the team.

Gave the Titans the ball at their own 45 yard line...

thanks Chad, really funny celebration. :rolleyes:

Degenerate39
11-25-2007, 03:18 PM
Gave the Titans the ball at their own 45 yard line...

thanks Chad, really funny celebration. :rolleyes:

What did he do

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:18 PM
How stupid is that ref... how can you be a referee in the NFL and EVER say something like, "Replay 3rd down" after there are off-setting dead ball personal fouls.

Just dumb.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:19 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Whoever is doing commentary just had the last part of his sentence broadcast over the air.

He said: "USC Thugs"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They came back, it looked like, early from the break. He was probably saying, "Lendale White is another one of those USC thugs." :laugh: :laugh:

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:20 PM
What did he do

Scored a touchdown and then jumped up on the camera stand and pretended like he was controlling the video camera

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:24 PM
Boomer Esiason calling Chad Johnson stupid and selfish.

Cowher agreeing.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:25 PM
Cowher: The Kid just doesn't get it.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:25 PM
Wow that celebration leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Perfect microcosm of the Bungles.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:26 PM
And did you see Marvin?

He laughed it off and slapped Chad on his rear-end.

I wish Marty Schottenheimer had been on the sidelines instead.

He'd have popped a blood vessel.

The Bengals are probably out of the playoffs and Chad is taking celebration penalties. Awesome.

Screwball
11-25-2007, 03:33 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the camera guy thing was pretty funny. Almost as funny as Buerlein getting caught talking about "USC thugs."

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:33 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the camera guy thing was pretty funny.

That's SO not the point.

Screwball
11-25-2007, 03:38 PM
That's SO not the point.

Sure it is. All this talk about getting penalized when they're out of the hunt is making a big fuss over nothing, if you ask me. If they were in the middle of a playoff hunt and he was getting penalized 15 yards, I'd be MUCH more outraged.

In fact, losing games is probably more beneficial than winning them. Not to say they should be trying to lose, but save the indignation for when this stuff actually matters.

RedFanAlways1966
11-25-2007, 03:39 PM
Not defending what Chad did (which was no big deal), but...

It is not a penalty to jump in the crowd (Lambeau Leap) and hang there for 10 seconds while fans pat you. However, jumping on a TV stand for 3 seconds gets a 15-yarder. What is the difference (other than about 7 seconds add'l celebration for the NON-penalty)? The NFL needs a REAL rule. Quit with the judgement crap. Call taunting the opponent.

WVRed
11-25-2007, 03:39 PM
That's SO not the point.

I'm sure Marvin was willing to take the penalty in order to get Chad's confidence up. He has been in a slump, but I do agree that when you are under .500, you don't need to be celebrating.

I seriously look for Chad to be dealt this offseason.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:41 PM
Sure it is. All this talk about getting penalized when they're out of the hunt is making a big fuss over nothing, if you ask me. If they were in the middle of a playoff hunt and he was getting penalized 15 yards, I'd be MUCH more outraged.

In fact, losing games is probably more beneficial than winning them. Not to say they should be trying to lose, but save the indignation for when this stuff actually matters.

It's about principles. Something the Bengal franchise hasn't had in a long time.

Wonder if the people who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on this team every year would be so 'c'est la vie' about taking boneheaded penalties just because the Bengals are "out of it."

You don't get "out of it" without losing games. You don't get "back into it" by allowing a me-first philosophy by your supposed team leaders.

Screwball
11-25-2007, 03:47 PM
Wonder if the people who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on this team every year would be so 'c'est la vie' about taking boneheaded penalties just because the Bengals are "out of it."


Don't know, but I really don't care either. They're entitled to their opinion. I found it funny, and entertaining in a season largely devoid of both. Figured I'd be in the minority on this, but I really don't see the need for the outrage this will surely spark.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:52 PM
Don't know, but I really don't care either. They're entitled to their opinion. I found it funny, and entertaining in a season largely devoid of both. Figured I'd be in the minority on this, but I really don't see the need for the outrage this will surely spark.

Yanno, in a vacuum, you're right, Screwball.

To me, it's just another example of why this team is the exact 180 degree opposite of a team like the Patriots.

Character matters in football, IMO. If everyone isn't clearly pulling in the same direction, you're never going to reach the highest levels of success.

WMR
11-25-2007, 03:55 PM
Kenny Watson > Rudi Johnson

Playadlc
11-25-2007, 03:57 PM
DeDe Dorsey > Rudi Johnson.

Fil3232
11-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Don't know, but I really don't care either. They're entitled to their opinion. I found it funny, and entertaining in a season largely devoid of both. Figured I'd be in the minority on this, but I really don't see the need for the outrage this will surely spark.

Agree with Screwball. Thought it was a funny celebration.

This team is dead not because of CJ's actions or attitude, but because the Defense is terrible and the FO is operating in a 1950's mold.

I say lighten up and enjoy watching one of the best receivers in the league do his thing.

Screwball
11-25-2007, 04:02 PM
Yanno, in a vacuum, you're right, Screwball.

To me, it's just another example of why this team is the exact 180 degree opposite of a team like the Patriots.

Character matters in football, IMO. If everyone isn't clearly pulling in the same direction, you're never going to reach the highest levels of success.

Fair enough, I can agree with this. I think you're more looking at Chad's antic as being emblematic of a much larger "ME-FIRST" attitude that plagues the Bengals, whereas I'm just not conerned about a 15 yard penalty in a game that doesn't matter.

While there has been lots of talk about problems with attitudes throughout the clubhouse, my guess is if we had more than 1 or 2 healthy LBers from week 1 and a secondary playing like they weren't allergic to footballs, we probably wouldn't hear too much about the problem that is Chad Johnson.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:03 PM
Fair enough, I can agree with this. I think you're more looking at Chad's antic as being emblematic of a much larger "ME-FIRST" attitude that plagues the Bengals, whereas I'm just not conerned about a 15 yard penalty in a game that doesn't matter.

While there has been lots of talk about problems with attitudes throughout the clubhouse, my guess is if we had more than 1 or 2 healthy LBers from week 1 and a secondary playing like they weren't allergic to footballs, we probably wouldn't hear too much about the problem that is Chad Johnson.

I agree with you.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:06 PM
Yeah and how funny was it hearing Buerlein talk about "USC THUGS" :lol: :lol: :lol:

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Interesting, Beuerlein is from Hollywood, CA and went to Notre Dame. :lol: Wonder why he doesn't like USC?

redsfanmia
11-25-2007, 04:10 PM
DeDe Dorsey > Rudi Johnson.

DeDe Dorsey would look great in Colts blue as a special teamer, Thanks Polian.

RedFanAlways1966
11-25-2007, 04:11 PM
I thought it was funny when the broadcast 1st came on it took Beuerlein 5 seconds to get "the Tennessee Titans" out of his mouth. It was like he forgot which teams were in the game he was about ready to work. His partner seemed to give him a funny look like "get with it, Steve".

Screwball
11-25-2007, 04:15 PM
Well, a rare bright spot in a lost season. Here are the 6-4 Titans getting spanked by the "Bungles" (hate it, hate it, hate it when Bengals fans use that word). Dead cat bounce?

Playadlc
11-25-2007, 04:21 PM
By the way, did anyone watching this game catch the CBS person say "just those USC thugs, man", when they came back from the commercial and he didn't realize he was on? It was on the heels of LenDale White's personal foul penalty.

Hilarious stuff.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:24 PM
By the way, did anyone watching this game catch the CBS person say "just those USC thugs, man", when they came back from the commercial and he didn't realize he was on? It was on the heels of LenDale White's personal foul penalty.

Hilarious stuff.

You haven't read the last two pages, have you?

:lol:

Playadlc
11-25-2007, 04:25 PM
You haven't read the last two pages, have you?

:lol:

That's embarrassing.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:28 PM
That's embarrassing.

;)

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:33 PM
I think this should be Rudi's last year on this team. He's just not getting the job done.

Playadlc
11-25-2007, 04:33 PM
Rudi is simply way too easy to tackle.

Watson and Dorsey are much better options.

guttle11
11-25-2007, 04:39 PM
This game is good for the soul.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:42 PM
Vince Young = Most Overrated Madden Cover-Boy Ever

OnBaseMachine
11-25-2007, 04:45 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Whoever is doing commentary just had the last part of his sentence broadcast over the air.

He said: "USC Thugs"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They came back, it looked like, early from the break. He was probably saying, "Lendale White is another one of those USC thugs." :laugh: :laugh:

Wow. Calling LenDale White a thug? What has LenDale White did to deserve being called a thug? What idiot announcer made that comment?

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:46 PM
Wow. Calling LenDale White a thug? What has LenDale White did to deserve being called a thug? What idiot announcer made that comment?

You haven't read the rest of this thread either! :laugh:

Steve Beuerlein.

OnBaseMachine
11-25-2007, 04:50 PM
You haven't read the rest of this thread either! :laugh:

Steve Beuerlein.

:p:

Hopefully LenDale clocks Beuerlein after the game so that he can give him a reason to call him a thug.

WMR
11-25-2007, 04:52 PM
Being from Hollywood and going to Notre Dame, it makes sense why he hates USC.

Playadlc
11-25-2007, 04:52 PM
Anyone watching the Chiefs game?

Herm Edwards has to be drunk.

camisadelgolf
11-25-2007, 04:59 PM
Chad Johnson hasn't been the same past few weeks, and everyone said he needs to stop caring about what people say about him. He apparently stopped caring this week, and coincidentally or not, he caught three touchdowns, set a franchise record, and set a personal record. If he produces like he did this week, I can tolerate a 15-yard penalty at a non-crucial time every once in a while.

Also, feel free to say he's not a team player for getting the penalty called against him, but the morale he brought to the team afterward probably did more than enough to offset it.

guttle11
11-25-2007, 05:02 PM
What's lost in the Chad talk is the way the defense stepped up and kept Tennessee out of the endzone. This was total team domination. If Graham had made his bunny FG it would have been as close to perfect as this team could ever play.

But people, including a 1530 radio host I won't name, will talk about Chad being selfish.

redsfanmia
11-25-2007, 05:05 PM
Anyone watching the Chiefs game?

Herm Edwards has to be drunk.

You play to win the game.

Yachtzee
11-25-2007, 06:10 PM
What's lost in the Chad talk is the way the defense stepped up and kept Tennessee out of the endzone. This was total team domination. If Graham had made his bunny FG it would have been as close to perfect as this team could ever play.

But people, including a 1530 radio host I won't name, will talk about Chad being selfish.

Other than the 15 yard penalty, the only thing I don't like about Chad celebrating is that it gives fodder for those who wish to obfuscate the real problem troubling the Bengals. The Defense may have done a great job today, but there's no way they maintain that performance week-to-week. The lack of consistent play on defense has killed this team. When Marvin Lewis talks about selfish players, everyone looks at Chad, but I guarantee you Marvin includes a number of players of defense in that "selfish" category. Blaming Chad Johnson for this team's woes is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Red's pitching problems.

Screwball
11-25-2007, 06:23 PM
Blaming Chad Johnson for this team's woes is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Red's pitching problems.

Yeah, it's like saying your car is in the shop because your windshield wipers are leaving streaks, while making no mention of the blown transmission.

remdog
11-25-2007, 07:09 PM
Being from Hollywood and going to Notre Dame, it makes sense why he hates USC.

Sorry, I still don't get why he hates the University of South Carolina. :p:

Rem

dougdirt
11-25-2007, 07:32 PM
Yeah, it's like saying your car is in the shop because your windshield wipers are leaving streaks, while making no mention of the blown transmission.

You mean the two ARENT related to one another?

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 12:47 AM
For what it's worth:

"He deserved it," defensive captain John Thornton said, approving of Johnson's celebration. "He's been working hard. I told him to keep it up. I told him if he needs a penalty to get himself going, go ahead."

WMR
11-26-2007, 01:05 AM
For what it's worth:

"He deserved it," defensive captain John Thornton said, approving of Johnson's celebration. "He's been working hard. I told him to keep it up. I told him if he needs a penalty to get himself going, go ahead."

Exhibit zz of why the Bengals have no team leaders.

guttle11
11-26-2007, 01:14 AM
Chad is a team leader, regardless of what anyone thinks. The team responds to his play on the field, both good and bad.

I'm really starting to detest my fellow Bengals fans. Wake up and see things for what they are, not what we want them to be.

WMR
11-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Chad is a team leader, regardless of what anyone thinks. The team responds to his play on the field, both good and bad.

I'm really starting to detest my fellow Bengals fans. Wake up and see things for what they are, not what we want them to be.

The fact that Chad Johnson is considered a leader of this team is a big part of the problem.

Talent is lacking in other areas, but me-first football teams don't win Super Bowls. And that attitude starts at the top, with your "leaders."

Screwball
11-26-2007, 01:30 AM
I've always been under the impression Carson and Willie Anderson are the team leaders, and damn good ones at that.

guttle11
11-26-2007, 01:41 AM
The fact that Chad Johnson is considered a leader of this team is a big part of the problem.

Talent is lacking in other areas, but me-first football teams don't win Super Bowls. And that attitude starts at the top, with your "leaders."

That begs the questions: Are "me first" and "team leader" mutually exclusive?

I don't think so. Chad's a leader because he produces more than nearly every other player at his position. He's a leader because of how much opponents have to scheme to stop him. They don't do that for TJ and Henry, at least at nowhere near the same level. They do it for Chad. Why is that? Just because there's no "C" on his chest and he's not a rah rah cheerleader does not mean he's not a leader that guys on the team look up to.

It also begs another question: Is being "me first" a bad thing? To me, the answer is a resounding no. "Me first" does not mean "me only". Chad wants the ball thrown to him in big situations, heck, he needs it. Does he pout when it doesn't? Only when the play fails. If TJ scores a big TD who is usually the first guy there to give him props? Chad. Same goes with Henry and anyone else that scores. When the play doesn't work he's upset because he knows he would have made it. That's a good thing!

"Me first" guys are good. "Me only" guys are bad. I've seen no evidence of Chad being the latter. Does he sometimes get lost in a failure? Yeah, the Arizona fumble comes to mind, but he's hardly the only person to have that fault.

I'll never forget when 1530 radio guy got on Chad when he got tackled inside the 5 and was pouty. OF COURSE HE WAS! He wanted to put the ball in the endzone. You know, the thing that scores 6 points for the team. But no, the reaction is way more important than the intention.

WMR
11-26-2007, 01:41 AM
I've always been under the impression Carson and Willie Anderson are the team leaders, and damn good ones at that.

I would bet Carson is disgusted at Chad's behavior more often than not.

WMR
11-26-2007, 01:43 AM
Carson has talked about the selfishness on this team a few times.

He's just too classy of a guy to call guys out by name (not that I think Chad is the only guy he was referring to... one of many, more like)

Screwball
11-26-2007, 02:13 AM
Carson has talked about the selfishness on this team a few times.



I'd love to get the inside scoop from the locker room on stuff like this. If only Crunutte's blog was good for a little more than the most recent score of the game....

camisadelgolf
11-26-2007, 05:09 AM
. . . The Defense may have done a great job today, but there's no way they maintain that performance week-to-week. The lack of consistent play on defense has killed this team. When Marvin Lewis talks about selfish players, everyone looks at Chad, but I guarantee you Marvin includes a number of players of defense in that "selfish" category. Blaming Chad Johnson for this team's woes is like blaming Adam Dunn for the Red's pitching problems.

I agree with you on the selfishness thing. For example, almost every game, I notice Justin Smith unnecessarily make an effort to tackle a guy who is already being tackled and clearly going down. There's nothing wrong with that except Justin Smith pushes the guy forward, but if he had done nothing, the player would've fallen backwards, thus helping the Bengals by about two yards or so. Unfortunately, I think Justin Smith's bothered by the franchise tag thing, so he feels a need to get every half-tackle he can to make sure he gets paid top defensive end money.

As for the inconsistency on defense, I'll just say that youth and inconsistency are synonymous. Domata Peko, Robert Geathers, Johnathan Joseph, Leon Hall, Madieu Williams, and most of the linebackers are all very talented and young. In a couple years, assuming the Bengals can keep them all together, I think they can make a very good defensive unit. Until then, I expect some highs and (very) lows. I think the defense looks significantly better over the last few games than they did after the first week.

Johnny Footstool
11-26-2007, 11:50 AM
For all the talk about his selfishness and me-first attitude poisoning the clubhouse, how many times has Chad Johnson been arrested?

I agree with Yachtzee -- his celebrations are only bad because they give critics an easy scapegoat. The problems in the Bengals organization run much, much deeper than Chad Johnson's antics.

BTW - is it possible that a dead-in-the-water team like the Bengals might have actually fed off of Chad's energy and emotion yesterday?

savafan
11-26-2007, 11:59 AM
BTW - is it possible that a dead-in-the-water team like the Bengals might have actually fed off of Chad's energy and emotion yesterday?

Watching that game, I don't have a doubt that they did. :)

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 12:07 PM
For all the talk about his selfishness and me-first attitude poisoning the clubhouse, how many times has Chad Johnson been arrested?

I agree with Yachtzee -- his celebrations are only bad because they give critics an easy scapegoat. The problems in the Bengals organization run much, much deeper than Chad Johnson's antics.

BTW - is it possible that a dead-in-the-water team like the Bengals might have actually fed off of Chad's energy and emotion yesterday?

Good post. I agree.

bucksfan2
11-26-2007, 12:08 PM
Its amazing that the bengals won, played good D, Chad scored 3 TD's yet people still rip him because he celebrated in the end zone. Look I dont care what the does if he gets in the endzone. Its a heck of a lot better than Madieu celebrating after breaking up a pass when the bengals are down 15!

OesterPoster
11-26-2007, 01:07 PM
Its amazing that the bengals won, played good D, Chad scored 3 TD's yet people still rip him because he celebrated in the end zone. Look I dont care what the does if he gets in the endzone. Its a heck of a lot better than Madieu celebrating after breaking up a pass when the bengals are down 15!

Oh, how I long for the days of Artrell Hawkins celebrating a tackle after a 9 yard pass completion. :)

{well, not really}

WMR
11-26-2007, 01:18 PM
Leadership--or lack thereof--starts at the top in any organization.

My father owns his own business. He has told me several times that a leader sets the right example all the time, because every person "below you" is watching you intently and is going to take their cues on how to act/conduct business from the example you set.

Wonder why young guys like Madieu act like they just won the Super Bowl after breaking up a routine play while they're down 15? Same reason Dexter Jackson does it. Same reason Chad Johnson takes 15 yard penalties while the Bengals piss away another season. Marvin tolerates it. The Bengals continue to be an undisciplined joke. ::shrug::

Carson sets a good example, but again, you're never going to succeed in the NFL if everyone isn't clearly pulling in the same direction.

But, please, keep telling me about all the other "REAL PROBLEMS" the Bengals franchise has, and how they're going to fix those problems, when the attitude set by their "team leaders" continues--and WILL CONTINUE--to filter down to everyone else taking their cues from how these "Veterans" behave. ::shrug::

Johnny Footstool
11-26-2007, 01:26 PM
Leadership--or lack thereof--starts at the top in any organization.

My father owns his own business. He has told me several times that a leader sets the right example all the time, because every person "below you" is watching you intently and is going to take their cues on how to act/conduct business from the example you set.

Wonder why young guys like Madieu act like they just won the Super Bowl after breaking up a routine play while they're down 15? Same reason Dexter Jackson does it. Same reason Chad Johnson takes 15 yard penalties while the Bengals piss away another season. Marvin tolerates it. The Bengals continue to be an undisciplined joke. ::shrug::

Carson sets a good example, but again, you're never going to succeed in the NFL if everyone isn't clearly pulling in the same direction.

But, please, keep telling me about all the other "REAL PROBLEMS" the Bengals franchise has, and how they're going to fix those problems, when the attitude set by their "team leaders" continues--and WILL CONTINUE--to filter down to everyone else taking their cues from how these "Veterans" behave. ::shrug::

If leadership is the problem, then the cause is *Marvin Lewis*, not Chad Johnson or Madieu Williams or Chris Henry or any one else.

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 01:30 PM
Leadership--or lack thereof--starts at the top in any organization.

My father owns his own business. He has told me several times that a leader sets the right example all the time, because every person "below you" is watching you intently and is going to take their cues on how to act/conduct business from the example you set.

Wonder why young guys like Madieu act like they just won the Super Bowl after breaking up a routine play while they're down 15? Same reason Dexter Jackson does it. Same reason Chad Johnson takes 15 yard penalties while the Bengals piss away another season. Marvin tolerates it. The Bengals continue to be an undisciplined joke. ::shrug::

Carson sets a good example, but again, you're never going to succeed in the NFL if everyone isn't clearly pulling in the same direction.

But, please, keep telling me about all the other "REAL PROBLEMS" the Bengals franchise has, and how they're going to fix those problems, when the attitude set by their "team leaders" continues--and WILL CONTINUE--to filter down to everyone else taking their cues from how these "Veterans" behave. ::shrug::

The REAL problem is defense. Any coincidence that when they play well the team is successful?

And as far as Chad not being a leader, come on. Nobody, according to anybody associated with the team, outworks #85. His drive to be great should be all the leadership the rest of the team needs. If only they would all look up to him.

gonelong
11-26-2007, 02:28 PM
While in Army basic training we had a guy that was a bit slow in picking things up. As a result we were often in Georgia clay based on one of his transgressions.

After a few weeks of this the guy was taking some verbal abuse one day in the barracks. One of my bunkmates and I had decided that we had heard enough, we had gathereed a few guys together to walk down and intervene. No doubt a large brawl was going to be the end result of this.

About 1/2 way down to his bunk our DS walked in and stood behind a few of the guys that were harrassing him so we stopped in our tracks. DS asked the group why they were giving the guy all this grief. One guy piped up and said, "Well, the guy is stupid and were tired of him messing up and us paying for it."

What the DS said in return has stuck with me and always will. "How many of you have tried helping him out? That man is on your team and someday he may be the guy who has your back. It's not him that is failing, it's you."



You do everything you can to get yourself prepared, and then you do everything you can to help others prepare. A leader just doesn't make himself better, he makes the people around him better. He amplifies his greatness.



I watched the first Bengals Super Bowl appearence on Roller Skates, at the Skating rink on a 13" B&W TV with a fuzzy signal because my Mom wouldn't let me cancel a Skating Party I had planned on my Birthday.

Chad Johnson scored and then gave the weakest part of the team a 15 yard kick in the nads. Then he and the Head Coach had a little giggle about it.

I have followed the Bengals for nearly 30 seasons now, and I am beginning to consider what it would mean to turn in my Stripes.

GL

SeeinRed
11-26-2007, 02:38 PM
Wow. Calling LenDale White a thug? What has LenDale White did to deserve being called a thug? What idiot announcer made that comment?

FWIW, the slip up came right after White kneed Deltha in the helmet. The late hit was obvious, but it happens. I don't think it was any more malicious than normal. Hitting somebody in the head is childish. That is where I believe the comment came from. The comment was however uncalled for.

You must also remember that these announcers will interview the players leading up to the game. Maybe he displayed "thuggish" behavior during the interview. I don't know, just speculation. I don't know much about White's past.

Johnny Footstool
11-26-2007, 03:25 PM
Chad Johnson scored and then gave the weakest part of the team a 15 yard kick in the nads. Then he and the Head Coach had a little giggle about it.


You could also say that Chad Johnson scored, then put on a energetic display of emotion that inspired himself and his teammates to perform at a high level. That's how it appeared to me, and the results of the game seem to support that idea.

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 03:33 PM
It's almost seems like Johnson's TD celebrations have the same effect as a hockey fight. It's against the rules and penalizes the team a small amount, but it also gets them fired up and brings the play up a level. If jumping on a camera platform helped inspire a 35 point outburst it was more than worth the 15 yards.

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 03:33 PM
And let's not forget the utterly forgettable kick coverage unit of the Bengals. Whose to say that without Chad's penalty, the Titans wouldn't have had the ball at the 40 anyway.

In another shocker, the Cincinnati media blows up a non-story involving one of it's best, most talented athletes. Yawn.

SeeinRed
11-26-2007, 04:17 PM
I understand that winning cures all, but what I don't understand is how when the bengals are winning, its just Chad having fun, but when they are losing, it is Chad showing that he is a problem in the clubhouse. Its either one or the other. He is either a problem, or he is just having harmless fun. I think that vedict should go out the the players opinion, not the talking heads. Besides, how many time have the won a game that you can say they won despite Chad. You can't. Even if you take away the yards he "gives away" in penalties, he is still an elite reciever. Yeah, he hasn't had his best year, but that has to go in with a lack of a running game until recently. Its awfully hard to play a one dimensional game.

The Bengals season is a lot simplier to understand the Bengals' struggles when you take into account the injuries and suspensions on defense. This team was missing two huge cogs to a winning team. A running game, and an adequet defense. It found both against the Titans. Why does everybody want to blame Chad. He is the reason the offense is amoung the elite. He has nothing to do with how may yards the D gives up or the big plays the D gives up or stopping the run. Did he injure any of the LBs? Did he make Henry and Thurman act in a manner that would warrant suspensions by the NFL. No, he didn't. Chad is a scapegoat and so is Marvin. Marvin and Chad are the reasons, along with Palmer, that we believed this was a playoff caliber team.

All along, we knew the only thing that would keep this team out of the playoffs was possibly the Defense. That is exactly what happened. The defense failed and this team has proven that you go nowhere when you have tons of injuries and no defense. The offensive woes are described by the lack of a running game due to injuries at RB, and the O-line. That forced a more passing oriented attack which was eventually one dimensional and there was a huge hole at the #3 reciever. Cover Chad and TJ, and you could shut down the offense. Add in the pressure of having to win shootouts and you have a recipe for disaster. Again, none of this has to do with Chads TD celebrations. If anything, by criticizing him, I believe he lost the part of the game that made him better than anybody else. The fun. He succeeds because he has fun. He works harder than most players at being the best, and that is well documented. Chad, IMO is exactly the type of player that this team needs right now. The type that won't settle until he is the best. If everybody worked as hard as Chad at just being the best at their respective positions, you'd be looking at a different team. Chad is a leader by example in working to become the best, and having fun. He may not be a vocal, no nonsense, keep everybody in line leader like some want, but I don't think he has to be. That is what they got Dexter Jackson for. Thay is what Marvin is there for. That is why Carson is there. Chad's position isn't one of a leader. Chad's position is one of results, which he delivers every year. If he wants to celebrate while putting up HOF type numbers while in Cincy, then I say let him. You can't call Chad the problem. The problem is that people would rather blame Chad than face the fact that this team was more unlucky than anything. When the Difference between a sub .500 club and a Playoff contender is so slim that a couple of unlucky plays can make a difference, then losing so many players to injury is just crippling. Especially when the players you lose are part of a defense that was not that good to begin with.

joshnky
11-26-2007, 04:36 PM
I understand that winning cures all, but what I don't understand is how when the bengals are winning, its just Chad having fun, but when they are losing, it is Chad showing that he is a problem in the clubhouse.

This is the real hypocrisy of the situation. In 2005 the national media and fan base loved his "Who Can Stop 85?" list and his celebrations. In my opinion, his "games" were viewed as nothing but fun and as an energizer for the team. Now the Bengals are losing and yesterday everyone ripped Chad Johnson.

I, too, have become tired of his act but its not the touchdown celebrations but the lack of celebrations (and touchdowns) that are the issue with me. This year he has taken the criticism to heart and has seemed excessively moody which has led to mistakes and blow ups.

IMO, every team has players like Chad that are both selfish and great. When you win all is great but when you lose it falls apart quickly.

Johnny Footstool
11-26-2007, 04:40 PM
It's almost seems like Johnson's TD celebrations have the same effect as a hockey fight. It's against the rules and penalizes the team a small amount, but it also gets them fired up and brings the play up a level. If jumping on a camera platform helped inspire a 35 point outburst it was more than worth the 15 yards.

I don't think they always work that way, but I think this particular celebration did. The team was mired in a miserable slump and needed something to fire them up. Mission accomplished.

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 04:51 PM
And Chad is on pace, statistically, to have his most productive season yet in terms of catches and yards. It's not as if his production has dropped and he is acting like a clown. He is as good as ever, it's just the defense can't stop anybody.

bucksfan2
11-26-2007, 05:30 PM
It seemed to me that even though Chad got a 15 yard penality for his celebration that it did more good than bad. It looked like it ignited the bengals and they looked like they were having fun again. They beat the heck out of a playoff conteneing team and looked good in doing so. This was the team a lot of us expected this year. If Chad can ignite the team like that the good for him. 3 TD's, a win, and one 15 yard peanality, I will take that any day of the week.

gonelong
11-26-2007, 07:57 PM
You could also say that Chad Johnson scored, then put on a energetic display of emotion that inspired himself and his teammates to perform at a high level. That's how it appeared to me, and the results of the game seem to support that idea.

I like Chad Johnson, he is a very special football player. He does things that few other receivers in the league can. I think his intentions are good, but his delivery is lacking when it comes to his celebrations.

Walking over to a camera and "filiming" the crowd inspired himself and his teammates to perform at a high level? If that has even a smidgen of truth to it this team is far worse off than I give it credit for.

Personally I think quite alot of the team is tired of the shtick.

GL

GAC
11-26-2007, 10:21 PM
For what it's worth:

"He deserved it," defensive captain John Thornton said, approving of Johnson's celebration. "He's been working hard. I told him to keep it up. I told him if he needs a penalty to get himself going, go ahead."

When I read this yesterday, and how other players knew ahead of time about this camera incident and supported it, it simply made me laugh while shaking my head.

He needs a penalty to "get himself going"?

What's he going to need next week?.... and the week after?

Talk about placating (enabling) a player.

I agree with what former Bengal Boomer Esiason stated yesterday during halftime.... He needs to stop it. He is being selfish, and it's not helping his team out one bit. Your team is 3-7, chances of the playoffs are slim, you haven't had a TD catch since September, and when you finally score a TD you pull a stunt like this that costs your team a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty?

It's stupid.

He's starting to remind me of that manic-depressive character, up one minute, down the next, that Baby Face Nelson character Michael Badalucco played in O Brother Where Art Thou?

He's gonna crash and burn at some point IMO.

No, Chad Johnson is not the reason they Bengals are having a lousy year. His talent is not an issue or in question here. It never has been. But his antics certainly aren't helping matters any.

This team does lack leadership IMO, and if one wants to lay that at the feet of Lewis then I won't argue with you.

bucksfan2
11-27-2007, 10:11 AM
When I read this yesterday, and how other players knew ahead of time about this camera incident and supported it, it simply made me laugh while shaking my head.

He needs a penalty to "get himself going"?

What's he going to need next week?.... and the week after?

Talk about placating (enabling) a player.

I agree with what former Bengal Boomer Esiason stated yesterday during halftime.... He needs to stop it. He is being selfish, and it's not helping his team out one bit. Your team is 3-7, chances of the playoffs are slim, you haven't had a TD catch since September, and when you finally score a TD you pull a stunt like this that costs your team a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty?

It's stupid.

He's starting to remind me of that manic-depressive character, up one minute, down the next, that Baby Face Nelson character Michael Badalucco played in O Brother Where Art Thou?

He's gonna crash and burn at some point IMO.

No, Chad Johnson is not the reason they Bengals are having a lousy year. His talent is not an issue or in question here. It never has been. But his antics certainly aren't helping matters any.

This team does lack leadership IMO, and if one wants to lay that at the feet of Lewis then I won't argue with you.

Completly disagree with you. Football players feed off emotion whether you like that or not. As for chad being manic-depressive I also disagree. He has been in a slump for a while now and across all of sports I have never seen a happy athlete when they are in a slump. It takes all kinds of things to bust out of a slump, if Chad's 15 yard penality busted him out of his slump I would say it was well worth it. If Chad's 15 yard penality ignited the team, I would say its well worth it.

Johnny Footstool
11-27-2007, 11:16 AM
I like Chad Johnson, he is a very special football player. He does things that few other receivers in the league can. I think his intentions are good, but his delivery is lacking when it comes to his celebrations.

Walking over to a camera and "filiming" the crowd inspired himself and his teammates to perform at a high level? If that has even a smidgen of truth to it this team is far worse off than I give it credit for.

Personally I think quite alot of the team is tired of the shtick.

GL

Actually, I believe scoring the touchdown and celebrating it like he used to announced that he was "back", as it were. You don't think that injected some much-needed emotion into the team?

And it doesn't sound like his teammates are all that tired of it when his defensive captain tells him to go ahead and do it.

BuckWoody
11-27-2007, 11:52 AM
I'm sure there are those who will not agree but I think you can equate it to a basketball coach purposely getting a technical foul in order to fire up the team. You can look at it in a vacuum and say that the coach cost his team a possession and some foul shots or you can look at the big picture and see that it may have lit a fire under his team.

I kind of an old guy and would certainly rather, in a perfect world, have Chad score and hand the ball to the official like he'd "been there before" but that's not how he plays the game. He uses the celebrations to fire himself up and motivate himself and his teammates. He certainly fires up the home crowd when he does it.

traderumor
11-27-2007, 04:16 PM
Is what Chad does any different than the hot dogging Pete Rose did? Pete ran to first on a walk to fire himself up and to give an example of playing hard at all times. He used to spike the ball on the turf as he passed by the pitching mound if he caught the final out of an inning. All of this was showboating and the rest of the league hated him--but the rest of the league also respected him because they knew he was a great player. And I suspect if he was a bad player, the showboating would have been noticed less, as it would with Chad.

And if these talented guys like to do such things and are instrumental in their team winning with their play, then I really do not get the complaining about a little hot dogging that has a minimum, if any negative impact on their team (I suppose someone who wants the spotlight is probably envious of Chad on the team), and may even at times light a fire under them.

gonelong
11-27-2007, 06:06 PM
Is what Chad does any different than the hot dogging Pete Rose did? Pete ran to first on a walk to fire himself up and to give an example of playing hard at all times. He used to spike the ball on the turf as he passed by the pitching mound if he caught the final out of an inning. All of this was showboating and the rest of the league hated him--but the rest of the league also respected him because they knew he was a great player. And I suspect if he was a bad player, the showboating would have been noticed less, as it would with Chad.

In my defense my Mom brought home a Pete Rose shirt in my size when I was about 7 or 8. I refused to wear it. Morgan, Bench, Concepcion, or Perez would have been great.

Pete showboating didn't add any outs or start the next guy off with an 0-1 count.


And if these talented guys like to do such things and are instrumental in their team winning with their play, then I really do not get the complaining about a little hot dogging that has a minimum, if any negative impact on their team (I suppose someone who wants the spotlight is probably envious of Chad on the team), and may even at times light a fire under them.

He can dance all he wants on the sideline and I'll laugh right along with everyone else. I personally draw the line when he gets 15 Yd penalties.

GL

GAC
11-27-2007, 10:06 PM
Completly disagree with you. Football players feed off emotion whether you like that or not.

Sure football players feed off of emotion. What Chad is doing has nothing to do with "feeding" off his emotion as much as it's feeding his self-serving ego.

How many times this year, and last, have we all witnessed this guy, on the field, throw temper tantrums, pout, and get in confrontations with his head coach, QB, and other players on the sideline? Explain to me how that fires up, motivates, your team?

If I allow my emotions to control/rule me to the point that it's a distraction to others, while making me out to be a horse's ass, is that a good thing?

No one, including me, denies this guy's talent. But I follow the Bengals pretty avidly also. And there is no way anyone is gonna convince me that this guy is not being a distraction and at times a "headache" for this head coach and various members of this team. Maybe they won't publically come out and say that; but when I hear Lewis and various other Bengal players, during interviews, allude to selfish play/attitudes, I think everyone knows who is being alluded to.


If Chad's 15 yard penality ignited the team, I would say its well worth it.

If it takes a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty to "ignite" your team, then I'd say your team has far worse problems. And I think that is an insult to the abilities/talent that is on this team.... that you need a penalty to somehow fire your team up and possible get it back on course.

What are some of you going to think if, at some point, a Johnson 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty doesn't work out to the Bengals' advantage and ends up costing them? Are you still going to defend him?

I guarantee you that Lewis wasn't happy with the penalty.

And let me ask one further question.... looking at all the antics that Chad has done - which don't win ballgames by the way - have they overall helped/effected the team in a positive way, or effected them more in a negative way? Explain.

I just simply find it funny how many Bengal fans are defending this guy's action because he is one of your own. Yet when it comes to other team's players, such as a Joey Porter, T.O., and many other flamboyant, self-serving, and downright egotistical players, you've had no problem in the past in lambasting them, deploring their actions, and labeling them as such.

But not Chad Johnson. He's just misunderstood. What he is doing is simply "having fun" and "entertaining."

I know, as Bengal fans, you can't stand the Browns; but to show that I'm not simply picking on Chad, or the fact he is a Bengal, let me relate a similar situation that happened last season with Braylon Edwards. I wish I could find the article/link, because I would post it.

My disgust has everything to do with a player's actions/behavior, and has nothing to do with Chad Johnson personally. But I want to show my objectivity, and that my position on this is consistent. I don't care who it is, or what team he plays for.

Edwards came back in '06 after being injured the previous year. And he came out on fire. But he was also costing the team with his excessive celebrations after making catches, and was nailed several times, in very critical situations/drives with 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalties. I know of two games in particular where he killed scoring drives because of his antics.

What happened? The head coach, as well as several of the veteran players, cornered him in the locker room and basically came down on him, told him that he, as well as this team as a whole, are in no position to be celebrating anything, that it's hurting the team, and causing one huge distraction. Stop it! And the message was received. I've seen the change in Edwards.

All I'm saying is that Chad is one talented athlete. He doesn't need to "express his emotions" in the antics we've witnessed in order to stay on top of his game, or to motivate this team.

The Bengals are a talented team. I'm just as perplexed as to what has been going on with them this year as everyone else. Their defense is bad (but the Brown's is worse). Maybe it is a culmination of all the "distractions" that have gone on since last year with various player troubles and losing key guys. I don't know. It ain't all Chad Johnson, but IMO he ain't helping matters.

And maybe it is, as some have already alluded to, a leadership problem, and that does come back to Marvin Lewis.

guttle11
11-27-2007, 10:15 PM
If it takes a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty to "ignite" your team, then I'd say your team has far worse problems. And I think that is an insult to the abilities/talent that is on this team.... that you need a penalty to somehow fire your team up and possible get it back on course.

It's not the actual penalty, though. It's the act itself. It loosened the team up. It let them see that, even though we're not winning a lot, it's ok to have fun out there. They did, and they played much better.

I saw a player on the Vikings mention that the fans care more about the results than the players, and I think that's pretty much spot on. Not in a "winning isn't important" way, but in a "this is a game" way. Losing isn't that big of a deal, but to a lot of fans, it is. They pay their money (in a lot of cases more than they can afford) and many want blood when they don't get the result they desire (we're all guilty of it from time to time at varying degrees). The players go home to their families.

GAC
11-27-2007, 10:26 PM
It's not the actual penalty, though. It's the act itself. It loosened the team up. It let them see that, even though we're not winning a lot, it's ok to have fun out there. They did, and they played much better.

I saw a player on the Vikings mention that the fans care more about the results than the players, and I think that's pretty much spot on. Not in a "winning isn't important" way, but in a "this is a game" way. Losing isn't that big of a deal, but to a lot of fans, it is. They pay their money (in a lot of cases more than they can afford) and many want blood when they don't get the result they desire (we're all guilty of it from time to time at varying degrees). The players go home to their families.

I understand where you're coming from guttle. So what is "PT Barnum" going to do this week vs Pittsburgh to ignite this team if their play isn't up to par?

How many other teams around the NFL are condoning or following this type of behavior in order to keep their teams fired up and give them a chance of winning?

I personally think the Bengals can win despite his antics. I just think it's an insult to the team as a whole to insinuate that this team needs this in order to motivate them on a week-to-week basis.

If I was Palmer, T.J, Justin Smith, and the other Bengal players, I'd feel downright slighted to hear fans say "Thank God for Chad's endzone antics! It's what's keeping this team motivated, and giving us a chance to win." It's all about Chad.

guttle11
11-27-2007, 10:33 PM
I understand where you're coming from guttle. So what is "PT Barnum" going to do this week vs Pittsburgh to ignite this team if their play isn't up to par?

How many other teams around the NFL are condoning or following this type of behavior in order to keep their teams fired up and give them a chance of winning?

I personally think the Bengals can win despite his antics. I just think it's an insult to the team as a whole to insinuate that this team needs this in order to motivate them on a week-to-week basis.

If I was Palmer, T.J, Justin Smith, and the other Bengal players, I'd feel downright slighted to hear fans say "Thank God for Chad's endzone antics! It's what's keeping this team motivated, and giving us a chance to win." It's all about Chad.

I didn't say it was the best possible way to do motivate, I just said it did.

traderumor
11-27-2007, 10:57 PM
I just simply find it funny how many Bengal fans are defending this guy's action because he is one of your own. Yet when it comes to other team's players, such as a Joey Porter, T.O., and many other flamboyant, self-serving, and downright egotistical players, you've had no problem in the past in lambasting them, deploring their actions, and labeling them as such.

But not Chad Johnson. He's just misunderstood. What he is doing is simply "having fun" and "entertaining."There is simply a difference between Joey Porter doing the muscle thing and TO's "it is ALL about me" and Chad playfully dancing in the end zone. It has nothing to do with being "one of ours," GAC.

Yachtzee
11-27-2007, 11:23 PM
There is simply a difference between Joey Porter doing the muscle thing and TO's "it is ALL about me" and Chad playfully dancing in the end zone. It has nothing to do with being "one of ours," GAC.

From all I've heard, Chad works hard in practice, communicates with his QB and other receivers, and studies game film all the time. Not quite the same thing as TO calling out his QB in the press and sitting out practices, riding the stationary bike and wearing a Tour De France cycling jersey for a gaggle of reporters while the rest of the team is trying to get its work done. GAC, like many other people, doesn't like Chad's celebrations because they find them to be unseemly. Fair enough. Whether it's a distraction or not seems to be conjecture coming from those outside the club, not within the club itself. It's easy to point the finger at Chad when the coach mentions selfish players. He does dumb stuff like the TD celebrations and not coming through on promised give aways at a comedy club. But when it comes to play on the field, he's not the real problem. Even when he's off his game, he still draws double teams and opens things up for other receivers. He works hard and he wants the ball every play. So does TJ. Good for them.

The real problem on this team is and has been the lack of leadership and consistent play on defense. Players are constantly freelancing and getting out of position, and make weak attempt at tackles, all of which result in big gains for the other team. This style of defense has been endemic with the Bengals since the days when Greg Myers was playing safety and making sissy arm tackles.

I would argue that the poor play on offense this season is just as attributable to players on the offensive side of the ball pressing in an attempt to score TDs every drive because they don't trust the defense to back them up. Maybe Chad's TD celebration fired everyone up, maybe it didn't. Maybe the defense stepped up its game and let the offense relax and play the game its own way.

If the Bengals trade Chad Johnson, I doubt it will make any difference whatsoever in the W-L column, and is just as likely to hurt the Bengals as it is to help. The only way to win consistently is to improve the defense by getting strong leadership and good talent. You can't put the entire responsibility for winning football games on the shoulders of Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson, and TJ Houshmanzadeh.

MaineRed
11-27-2007, 11:33 PM
I think it is safe to say that TO and Romo have a much better relationship than Chad and Palmer.

It is Johnson and Palmer who argue on the sidelines. And if TO is such a distraction, why is Dallas 10-1? They are probably 4-7 without him.

TO is the one who is misunderstood. TO is the one who has the media breathing down his throat all the time, reporting that he tried to kill himself, etc, etc. Chad just gets laughed at and has funny features done on him. Rarely is he the center of a national media blitz, usually just blurbs here and there.

TO wins everywhere he goes. Chad has spent most of his career patting himself on the back while playing for mediocre teams. You can blame the D for the Bengals ills but you can't blame TO for those of the Cowboys as they really only have one, the Patriots happened to be on their schedule.

Yachtzee
11-27-2007, 11:45 PM
I think it is safe to say that TO and Romo have a much better relationship than Chad and Palmer.

It is Johnson and Palmer who argue on the sidelines. And if TO is such a distraction, why is Dallas 10-1? They are probably 4-7 without him.

TO is the one who is misunderstood. TO is the one who has the media breathing down his throat all the time, reporting that he tried to kill himself, etc, etc. Chad just gets laughed at and has funny features done on him. Rarely is he the center of a national media blitz, usually just blurbs here and there.

TO wins everywhere he goes. Chad has spent most of his career patting himself on the back while playing for mediocre teams. You can blame the D for the Bengals ills but you can't blame TO for those of the Cowboys as they really only have one, the Patriots happened to be on their schedule.

I would say that TO is quiet because the Cowboys are winning. Maybe he learned to keep his trap shut after the debacles in Philly and his first year in Dallas. Somehow I think that, if they were not winning, he'd be pulling his same old dog and pony show. In the past, it's been TO calling the pressers, often with Drew Rosenhaus at his side, to make stupid comments. So don't try to play it off as TO is misunderstood. I think TO has made sure everyone understands TO loud and clear. TO doesn't win. One man does not win football games. He's been on some good teams that won. Of course when those teams then crashed and burned, he seemed to be up front with a can of gasoline and a book of matches.

MaineRed
11-27-2007, 11:57 PM
I'd love to see how Chad and Drew Bledsoe would get along.

And Philly hardly crashed and burned. They went to the Super Bowl. San Fran didn't crash and burn until after TO was gone. And Dallas isn't crashing and burning now that they have an actual NFL QB.

TO isn't perfect but as far as distrations to the other 52 players I think you will find as much support for TO in the Dallas locker room as you would for Chad in the Bengals.

Going back to Philly I think there were a lot of things that were not reported. I don't think Donovan McNabb is the saint he is made out to be.

WVRed
11-28-2007, 12:13 AM
I'd love to see how Chad and Drew Bledsoe would get along.

And Philly hardly crashed and burned. They went to the Super Bowl. San Fran didn't crash and burn until after TO was gone. And Dallas isn't crashing and burning now that they have an actual NFL QB.

TO isn't perfect but as far as distrations to the other 52 players I think you will find as much support for TO in the Dallas locker room as you would for Chad in the Bengals.

Going back to Philly I think there were a lot of things that were not reported. I don't think Donovan McNabb is the saint he is made out to be.

Philly crashed and burned the following year, but I agree with your assessment of Donovan McNabb. Not to mention I think he will be out of Philadelphia this year and probably in Minnesota next.

Same with Chad Johnson, I look for him to be out of Cincinnati and probably in an Atlanta Falcons uniform next year.

MaineRed
11-28-2007, 12:17 AM
Teams crash and burn left and right the year after making the Super Bowl. Look at the Bears this year.

But yet if TO was on the Bears he would be the reason for the collapse.

Chip R
11-28-2007, 12:42 AM
Pete showboating didn't add any outs or start the next guy off with an 0-1 count.


No, but running a single into an out at second or a double into an out at 3rd is just as bad. Sliding headfirst into an out when sliding feet first would make you avoid the tag is not good either. Or diving for a ball and missing it when you could have caught it standing up.

Perhaps those things aren't showboating along the lines of a touchdown celebration. Maybe Pete did that stuff because he was showboating or maybe it was just misguided zeal.

Redsfaithful
11-28-2007, 05:17 AM
The Bengals have a top 5 offense. That the offense is even getting discussed in Cincinnati is so typical. Chad Johnson celebrating = Adam Dunn walking out to left field instead of running.

Playadlc
11-28-2007, 06:45 AM
The Bengals have a top 5 offense. That the offense is even getting discussed in Cincinnati is so typical. Chad Johnson celebrating = Adam Dunn walking out to left field instead of running.

Completely agree. I also love to read posts about the so called selfishness of certain Bengals players coming from fans of our rivals.

RFS62
11-28-2007, 08:35 AM
Wow. Not being a Bengals fan, this is about as easy a call as they come.

He's a clown. A talented clown, but a clown, nonetheless.

Some people like clowns.

MaineRed
11-28-2007, 08:37 AM
Completely agree. I also love to read posts about the so called selfishness of certain Bengals players coming from fans of our rivals.

Right, because no Bengal fan would ever say anything about someone from another team.

Patriot fans love reading the jealous takes that are found here.

Jet fans love being lumped into a group of scum by Bengal fans.

Pittsburgh fans love reading about Big Ben having less talent than that of Carson Palmer's pinky toe. They also love harsh critism of their team winning games played at the bottom of a lake.

Redskin fans enjoy reading what a thug Sean Taylor is as he lay dying.

Brown fans loved hearing from Bengal fans how bad their team was early this season.

How dare anyone who doesn't wear black and orange underroos say anything about the mighty Bengals.

Yachtzee
11-28-2007, 09:06 AM
Right, because no Bengal fan would ever say anything about someone from another team.

Patriot fans love reading the jealous takes that are found here.

Jet fans love being lumped into a group of scum by Bengal fans.

Pittsburgh fans love reading about Big Ben having less talent than that of Carson Palmer's pinky toe. They also love harsh critism of their team winning games played at the bottom of a lake.

Redskin fans enjoy reading what a thug Sean Taylor is as he lay dying.

Brown fans loved hearing from Bengal fans how bad their team was early this season.

How dare anyone who doesn't wear black and orange underroos say anything about the mighty Bengals.

And some people like to come in to every thread and take a big whiz all over it by taking cheap shots at the poster rather than discussing the content of the post.

traderumor
11-28-2007, 09:52 AM
nm.

TeamSelig
11-28-2007, 10:39 AM
That's MaineRed for ya.

This topic is really starting to get old. Chad Johnson and Carson Palmer have a fine relationship... most QB/WRs have arguments, thats just the way things go.

Chad is also no where near the reason why we suck. We suck because we have no defense, and if you can't realize that then you don't need to even be on this thread. We also suck because our coaches are a bunch of tards.

MaineRed
11-28-2007, 02:21 PM
And some people like to come in to every thread and take a big whiz all over it by taking cheap shots at the poster rather than discussing the content of the post.

Whatever.

I challenge you to read the last page of this thread and tell me I wasn't discussing the content of the post.

I think it was you who brought up TO. I responded about TO and Chad. I continued to talk football, about the Eagles, about TO, about Chad.

Then someone comes in and suggest that non Bengal fans should pretty much keep their mouths shut when it comes to Chad. There are a number of people here who want to be able to dish it out but have SERIOUS issues taking it back. You guys love free speech when you agree with the take but want to censor anyone who disagrees.

But it is me who wants to take cheap shots at posters? And I suppose TeamSelig's dig at me was a compliment?

Yachtzee
11-28-2007, 03:32 PM
Whatever.

I challenge you to read the last page of this thread and tell me I wasn't discussing the content of the post.

I think it was you who brought up TO. I responded about TO and Chad. I continued to talk football, about the Eagles, about TO, about Chad.

Then someone comes in and suggest that non Bengal fans should pretty much keep their mouths shut when it comes to Chad. There are a number of people here who want to be able to dish it out but have SERIOUS issues taking it back. You guys love free speech when you agree with the take but want to censor anyone who disagrees.

But it is me who wants to take cheap shots at posters? And I suppose TeamSelig's dig at me was a compliment?

I'm not going to get into a "he said this" and "you said that" and blah blah blah contest. All I know is that political discussions on this board got banned because people couldn't refrain from discussing other posters rather than the topic at hand. Too often folks resorted to remarks about the views of others in a manner that was snide and dismissive. This thread is taking that turn.

TeamSelig
11-28-2007, 05:36 PM
We just get tired of a certain poster coming into every thread and throwing around insults and making a huge argument out of every single topic. I think you just get a kick out of bothering people and starting a ruckass in every thread.

MaineRed
11-28-2007, 06:20 PM
The only problem is I didn't throw around any insults. I responded to some comments about Terrell Owens and was discussing football.

I did respond to a poster who seemed to imply that only Bengal fans are allowed to comment on Chad Johnson but I really don't think I dropped any insults. I was sarcastic and I think it was warranted. Bengal fans have no problem commenting on the things I mentioned in that post but when it comes to the Bengals unless you can see Paul Brown stadium from your bedroom you have no business having a take. Unless it is positive of course.

BTW, you should go look up "every" in the dictionary. Outside of the football threads I rarely post in a topic and I would bet my house that I am not doing the things you claim in EVERY thread. You want to put your beer helmet on the line in that bet?

Your exaggerations get just as tiring.

GAC
11-28-2007, 08:32 PM
No, but running a single into an out at second or a double into an out at 3rd is just as bad. Sliding headfirst into an out when sliding feet first would make you avoid the tag is not good either. Or diving for a ball and missing it when you could have caught it standing up.

Perhaps those things aren't showboating along the lines of a touchdown celebration. Maybe Pete did that stuff because he was showboating or maybe it was just misguided zeal.

I don't think Pete did any of those things because of showboating. I respectfully think that anyone who feels that doesn't know anything about the competitive and driven nature of Pete. And man was he competitive. The guy hated to lose. Call it a excessive compulsive behavior, or even an addiction.

Now was he also arrogant and bull-headed? Or was it simply confidence? I guess it all depends on how people look at it. Either way, that same driven character that brought him huge success on the field, left to his downfall off the field.

But I don't think Pete played the way he did to showboat.

He ran to 1B on walks because Pete was always looking to gain an advantage. Pete didn't have that "natural ability" like say a Eric Davis. He was always studying, looking at ways to gain the upper hand. Again - that was just his competitive nature.

GAC
11-28-2007, 09:23 PM
There is simply a difference between Joey Porter doing the muscle thing and TO's "it is ALL about me" and Chad playfully dancing in the end zone. It has nothing to do with being "one of ours," GAC.

Respectfully tr (and you know I am sincere in that aspect), Chad's antics are "playful", while Porter's and T.O.'s action are "it's all about me"?

You're saying there is no "me, me" aspect that motivates Chad's behavior? When the guy runs over to the sideline and puts on a jacket that says "Future H.O.F" on it? Or when he puts so much pre-planning into these celebrations knowing full well it is going to draw his team an unsportsmanlike penalty that coming Sunday, and yet doesn't seem to care?

When Marvin Lewis ripped the team for being selfish after its 34-13 Monday night home loss to New England, in a following interview Johnson states "My take on the word selfish? If you don't have any selfishness about you, you're not going to win at what you do."

I've never laid the blame for Cincy's dismal season on Chad's shoulders. If I believe that football is a team sport (and I do), that it takes all 11 guys on that field to succeed/win, then the losing has to also be laid on those same 11 guys.

I have never denied that Chad isn't a passionate guy. I understand the guy wants to win and win bad. I've simply stated he allows those emotions to run amok/control him, to the point where it's not only been a distraction, but it has also affected his play/performance on that field.

Even Dave Lapham has came down on him for that.

Here's one thing that gets me about Johnson.....

He's definitely good. So good that opposing defenses plan accordingly and double team the guy which is what defenses do when you have a play maker like that. He then gets frustrated because he's not getting the ball. And that has led to confrontations with his QB, head coach, and other players on that field, sidelines, and in the locker room.

And I don't see how people can simply dismiss that as being Chad showing his competitive "side", and that it's not a problem?

And if the guy wants the spotlight, then he has to take the criticism that also comes with it. And he doesn't seem to take that too well either.

If I had the choice, I'd take T.J. over Chad simply because I think T.J. is more of a team player. Chad seems to only be a team player when things are going his way. That is just my take.


From all I've heard, Chad works hard in practice, communicates with his QB and other receivers, and studies game film all the time.

No one, including myself denies that. But work ethic is a separate issue IMHO.


Whether it's a distraction or not seems to be conjecture coming from those outside the club, not within the club itself. It's easy to point the finger at Chad when the coach mentions selfish players.

The fact that the head coach, as well as certain players via various interviews, have alluded to this selfishness, gives evidence that it's also coming from inside the club. And they never mentioned any particular player's names either. Yet Chad felt obligated to give an interview directly afterwards because he felt it was singling him out Guilty conscience? ;)

Yachtzee
11-28-2007, 11:59 PM
The fact that the head coach, as well as certain players via various interviews, have alluded to this selfishness, gives evidence that it's also coming from inside the club. And they never mentioned any particular player's names either. Yet Chad felt obligated to give an interview directly afterwards because he felt it was singling him out Guilty conscience? ;)

TJ has also talked about the selfishness issue in a way that sounded like he felt it was directed at him too. So is he guilty too? I think the selfish charge was directed at several players. But it's the media that has directed it solely at one player, which is unfair. Selfishness isn't limited to one player on that team.

GAC, I would love for Chad Johnson to be a humble lunch-pail type guy who does his job without the shenanigans and lets his performance do the talking. But he's not that guy, just as Adam Dunn is never going to be a gold-glove left fielder who strikes out less that 50 times in a season. He's a passionate guy. He wants to win and he wants to put up big numbers doing it. I have no problem with those two facts. I don't like seeing him get upset and have words with Carson Palmer, but I don't know about their personal relationship, so I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that a heated argument between the two on the sideline for one game is tearing the team apart. I'm not going to say that Chad turning away from Marvin during a game is a sign that Chad doesn't respect Marvin. We don't see Chad and Carson and Marvin on a daily basis, so unless someone with a close relationship to them says there's a problem, I'm not inclined to think there is.

After living through the era when team cancers like Carl Pickens and Corey Dillon were spewing venom in the locker room and on the practice field, Chad Johnson's antics are hardly worth mentioning. The reason I get annoyed with it is because it causes people to lose focus of the real problem with the team. There is a serious lack of leadership and team play on the defensive side of the ball. I can only hope that Marvin's "selfish" comment was directed at certain members of the defense, because it's clear that a number of them haven't been playing their assignments this season and instead have been freelancing in an attempt to make the big play. They try to make their living off causing turnovers, when they should be focusing on their assignments. For example, how many times this season have we seen the pass rushers try to beat the tackles on the outside, leaving a huge gap in the middle of the pocket for the QB to step up into or run for the first down? How many times have DBs left their coverage assignment thinking they had help elsewhere because they thought they could jump an underneath route? How many times have LBs bit on the play fake, leaving the Tight End wide open over the middle?

To use a baseball analogy, it's like when a light hitting center fielder or second baseman with speed has a good year with HRs, then the next season all he does is try to hit more HRs. He forgets about doing what he needs to do, get on base, and swings for the fences every time up. I think what the Bengals really need is a player on defense who can knock some heads together in the defensive huddle and make sure guys are focusing on their assignments and not on trying to make the big play. Do your job and the big plays come. The defense has real problems with guys not doing their jobs and it's not something that I think Chad Johnson has anything to do with.

As a player, Chad Johnson brings way more to the table than he takes off of it. I can't say the same about a lot of Bengals players.

Chip R
11-29-2007, 12:20 PM
I don't think Pete did any of those things because of showboating. I respectfully think that anyone who feels that doesn't know anything about the competitive and driven nature of Pete. And man was he competitive. The guy hated to lose. Call it a excessive compulsive behavior, or even an addiction.

Now was he also arrogant and bull-headed? Or was it simply confidence? I guess it all depends on how people look at it. Either way, that same driven character that brought him huge success on the field, left to his downfall off the field.

But I don't think Pete played the way he did to showboat.

He ran to 1B on walks because Pete was always looking to gain an advantage. Pete didn't have that "natural ability" like say a Eric Davis. He was always studying, looking at ways to gain the upper hand. Again - that was just his competitive nature.

Perhaps he didn't. But we don't know that for sure. I'm sure no one was as cognizant of his image as Pete was. He knew his batting average after every at bat, etc. But don't you think there might have been a time or two where he was showing some false hustle? Maybe he tried to dive for a catch instead of catching it in the air ala Jim Edmonds. 9 out of 10 times when he was stretching a single into a double he may have been doing it to get that extra base but maybe that 10th time he was doing it to make himself look good. I don't disagree that he hated to lose. I'm sure Chad Johnson hates to lose too and he's as competitive as the next guy. But since Chad has all that natural talent he's not perceived the same way as Rose was and is.

Redsfaithful
11-29-2007, 01:32 PM
TJ has also talked about the selfishness issue in a way that sounded like he felt it was directed at him too.

It was definitely about TJ too, you just have to connect the dots. A lot of players complained about play calling earlier this year, and TJ was mentioned specifically by Marvin as being a player who did that.

But to the media it's all about Chad.

If the defense was just average the Bengals would be a playoff team every year, and I actually think they will more than likely be a lot better next year. The health issues they have suffered through this season have been abnormal.

CrackerJack
11-29-2007, 01:57 PM
When Chad jumps into the "Dawg Pound" after a Td early in a game and incites the other team and their fans, he's being selfish and stupid. They lost that game.

When Chad pulls out a "HOF" jacket, he's being selfish and ignorant, that was just embarrassing, no one does that.

When Chad drops an easy pass on 3rd down late in the Buffalo game that would've been a huge play downfield, he can't back up his talk and silliness with action. They went on to lose that game and as a result, at that point, their playoff hopes. Thanks Chad.

When Chad fumbles because he refuses to carry the ball properly in or near the red zone in a close game and takes away points from his team, he can't back it up - he contributes directly to losing winnable games that cost them the post season.

Where was Chad the last six weeks? His #'s stunk, and he didn't make plays or take advantage of opportunities again and again.

He is a big reason why they won't be in the post season again this year.

This is why he deserves to be criticized.

Marvin let's Chad get away with whatever he wants, that's just the way it is. And Marvin can thank Chad for contributing to his rapid decline as an NFL head coach.

One great game and all is forgotten in Cincy it seems. Women and kids will put on their Chad jersies next home game, just waiting for Chad's next "act."

Whatever. He's a great WR, but he's a head case who has become nothing more than a big choker in meaningful games against tough competition.

The Bengals' don't "need" him, any talented #1 type WR would put up great #'s, and probably more consistently, in this offense with a top 5 QB.

Allllll that said, he involved his teammates last week on his 2 following TD's and sought out his QB and lineman - THAT is what we need to see more of. God forbid the guy actually "gets it" some day.

deltachi8
11-29-2007, 02:35 PM
I don't think Pete did any of those things because of showboating. I respectfully think that anyone who feels that doesn't know anything about the competitive and driven nature of Pete. And man was he competitive. The guy hated to lose. Call it a excessive compulsive behavior, or even an addiction.

.

I'd hate to lose too if I had ten large riding on the game. ;)

The Bengals problems, IMHO, have not changed in the past few years - and they don't reside on the offensive side of the ball. They simply don't stop the run and the efforts they have made to address that have been either poor or misguided.

I don't think the "character" issues have helped any, but not hurt as much as some believe either.

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 03:08 PM
I've never put anyone on ignore before, but you are probably the most annoying poster I have ever came across. You can strive on controversy and heated arguments, but I am done with you completely.
-------------------------

As for the other Chad haters, name ONE thing that he has done that directly damages the teams morale.

We cannot go by what we think might be happening in the lockerroom. I need some real evidence that proves he has caused all of these "problems" with his teammates. Since people are basing what they see as facts, I'll go ahead and say that from watching the games, he seems to be well liked by his teammates and in fact one of the leaders of the team. I think he inspires others, and keeps the games fun - thus raising team morale and chemistry.

And just becase he drops a pass he hurts the team? Everyone drops passes. It happens. No one is perfect, and just because he talks trash (mostly in a joking manner) or celebrates creatively, does not mean that he has to be perfect. Thats ridiculous. What about when he dives across the mid-field allowing himself to be vulnerable to that cheap shot? He could have been paralyzed. He is constantly hustling, diving, fighting for extra yards - he plays hard, he tries hard, and that is what the other players see. They laugh at his jokes, but his play speaks for himself. Also, his #'s aren't going to be good when our offense has NO running game. No one has really had that great of numbers. We have sucked this year, and it is no secret. You can't put a whole organization failing on one of our best players.

Don't blame us for wondering why other teams fans are criticizing our team and using psychoanalysis to determine why Chad is such a horrible player.

WMR
11-29-2007, 03:14 PM
The only thing Chad hurt in that Buffalo game was his pride.

Chip R
11-29-2007, 03:27 PM
This is why he deserves to be criticized.


Criticism is fine. If someone drops a ball or runs the wrong route or screws up, they deserve criticism. But let's not make one person to be the sole problem. Did anyone ever think that TJ's having a career season because of Chad?

Because Chad doesn't fit the profile of the Cincinnati fan's idea of a player, he gets the large amount of the blame when the team goes south. It's happened many times before. Chad's no Jerry Rice but he's not the person to blame for the Bengals losing.

BuckWoody
11-29-2007, 04:34 PM
Before we go too much further, I'd like to point out that Chad is not having a terrible year. He is currently 4th in the NFL in yards receiving, 5th in receptions, and among receivers having 30+ receptions he's 2nd in percentage of catches for 1st downs...and he has 32 more catches than the guy in front (Santonio Holmes).

Say what you want about his personality and his antics, but to question his production is pure silliness. I get to see him live a lot more than most on here and there is ALWAYS help over the top with Chad. I'd assume that goes a long way in helping TJ have the great year he is having...but what do I know?

The Bengals' #1 problem coming into this year was a mediocre defense. Then a lot of guys on that mediocre defense got hurt, compounding the problem. Next would be the lunkhead brothers, Odell Thurman and Chris Henry missing time because of their stupid actions. Next would probably be the injuries they've had on offense (Willie, Levi, Chris Perry, Kenny Irons, Tab Perry, etc.). There are other things too; Marvin's brain cramps on game day, special teams shortcomings, ugly uniforms......whatever else you want to throw in there. Chad Johnson dancing in the endzone and acting the fool to the media rates so far down the list that it barely warrants mention outside of those media types and forum posters who don't take the time to fully understand the situation.

Just my two cents. :dunno:

Screwball
11-29-2007, 04:46 PM
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but it looked to me that Chad pointed the camera towards the sidelines, at his own teammates. After his 2nd touchdown, he sought out the O-Linemen to celebrate with them. And after his 3rd TD, he simply celebrated with his WRs and Carson. Maybe what Chad did was an effort to recognize and applaud his teammates, yet simply backfired - at least according to the 'talking heads'. Maybe, just maybe, he isn't as selfish as much of the media would have you believe.

BRM
11-29-2007, 05:18 PM
Wow. Not being a Bengals fan, this is about as easy a call as they come.

He's a clown. A talented clown, but a clown, nonetheless.

Some people like clowns.

This pretty much sums up my feelings about Chad Johnson.

SeeinRed
11-29-2007, 05:25 PM
He may be a clown, but he is a clown very few teams would turn down the chance to have him on their team IMO. That says everything you need to know about what kind of problem he is. He is the type of person you either love or hate, but you can't deny his talent.

BRM
11-29-2007, 05:28 PM
That's because more teams than not will take talent regardless of attitude or personality in pro sports. Teams in the NFL will welcome Mike Vick back with open arms after his prison sentence is complete, as long as he can still run. Talent will always rule the day in sports.

SeeinRed
11-29-2007, 05:58 PM
That's because more teams than not will take talent regardless of attitude or personality in pro sports. Teams in the NFL will welcome Mike Vick back with open arms after his prison sentence is complete, as long as he can still run. Talent will always rule the day in sports.

Which you could say is because they don't cause the big problems that some would like you to think. Talent gets results, wether the talent is a terrible team mate or not, which nobody has ever said that Chad was. Chad is selfish, yes, but not detremental to this team. The fact remains that you cannot attribute any of the failures of this team directly on Chad or his selfish attitude. You can attribute it, however, to injuries and suspensions and a terrible defense along with a weak running game. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even the stats will support that fact.

This topic gets tiring. You are either on one side of the fence or the other, and you aren't going to change no matter what happens. I believe that this is an argument that can't be resolved. You either hate him, or love him and there is no in between. There are no stats to show who was a good team mate or who caused losses because they were a terrible team mate. Can anybody tell me how many points Chad has cost the team this year because he is selfish? Even if you could, would it outweigh the positives Chad brings to the table.

In 2004, the media loved the guy and said he wasn't a problem. Now, he is selfish, stupid, and other s words I'm sure. The difference? W's. His celebrations are no worse now than before. I'm sure he was just as vocal, even though he and Carson did not get into as many arguments, but that too has to do with frustration of losing. Why isn't Carson just as much to blame for those arguments? We don't know for sure who made the mistakes, just some people don't like Chad. It is, as some say, the relationship between Chad and Carson that is in question here. Two make a relationship. In any relationship I've been involved in, when there was trouble it wasn't just a one way street.

I just have a problem understanding the hostility towards Chad over this season. The Bengals are set on a few positions. Those happen to be at QB and the 1 and 2 WR along with maybe a couple others. The problems lie elsewhere.

BRM
11-29-2007, 06:12 PM
You won't hear me claim Chad is the reason for the Bengal's struggles. He certainly isn't. All I'll say is I'm glad he's a Bengal. Of course that's because I'm a Colts fan. :)

SeeinRed
11-29-2007, 06:18 PM
You won't hear me claim Chad is the reason for the Bengal's struggles. He certainly isn't. All I'll say is I'm glad he's a Bengal. Of course that's because I'm a Colts fan. :)

:bowrofl:

I didn't mean to aim that in anybody's direction in particular. Its just a theme that has be at the head of this whole debate. My apologies if you took it that way. I get a little carried away with my rants. I had forgotten I used your post as a quote.

GAC
11-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Don't blame us for wondering why other teams fans are criticizing our team and using psychoanalysis to determine why Chad is such a horrible player.

You never cease to amaze with your exaggerations. Psychoanalysis? No one said he was a horrible player. He's just a head case. Very talented. Just a head case. :lol:

Just like many enjoy Chad's antics, many also see them as selfish and a distraction to the team.

And you keep throwing that "other team's fans" reasoning out there and it just doesn't wash. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Bengal. I could care less whose uniform he's wearing. If he was pulling these shenanigans as a Brown, my position wouldn't change. I just don't care for what I perceive to be selfish and showboating players who seem to like to draw attention to themselves. It reeks of ego. And I bet if he wore a Steeler or Brown uniform you wouldn't be defending him; but would be leveling some of the same accusations you trying to lambaste others for holding. ;)

And it's just not other team's fans who are being critical of Chad. In fact, some even contend that this is all the fault of the local media. They are somehow to blame for all these hits that Chad's image is taking. Why isn't Chad ever responsible? Funny how Chad has no problem utilizing that same media to draw attention to himself - that's fine, that's acceptable - but when that media doesn't always go his way, or is ever critical, then they are to blame for how the fans perceive him.

How can one crave to be in the spotlight and not understand that there is good and bad when you're standing under those lights?

GAC
11-29-2007, 07:21 PM
Perhaps he didn't. But we don't know that for sure. I'm sure no one was as cognizant of his image as Pete was. He knew his batting average after every at bat, etc. But don't you think there might have been a time or two where he was showing some false hustle? Maybe he tried to dive for a catch instead of catching it in the air ala Jim Edmonds. 9 out of 10 times when he was stretching a single into a double he may have been doing it to get that extra base but maybe that 10th time he was doing it to make himself look good. I don't disagree that he hated to lose. I'm sure Chad Johnson hates to lose too and he's as competitive as the next guy. But since Chad has all that natural talent he's not perceived the same way as Rose was and is.

IMO, Chad and Pete did have one thing in common - egos. But growing up watching Pete I don't think he was guilty of showboating. Possible? Sure. But he was no Chad Johnson. I never saw Pete wearing a "Bet I'm a Shoe-in for the HOF" jacket in the dugout. :lol:

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 07:36 PM
Exaggerations? I was making fun of people who are trying to say that he is hurting the team chemistry, but have nothing to back that up with aside from "analyzing" his celebrations.

It all boils down to people having nothing to talk about. Chad Johnson is a top receiver in all of the NFL. While a poster above might not want him on their team, any coach/gm/owner/etc. in the NFL would want him on their team. We are a bad team with very few bright spots, and he happens to be one of them. Sorry you guys don't see it that way. This situation is exactly like Adam Dunn's. People want to hate him, but you won't find a statistic or situation where he has hurt his team.

Adam Dunn strikes out too much, and Chad Johnson talks too much. I love them both, if i'm exaggerating or not.

MaineRed
11-29-2007, 07:43 PM
You never cease to amaze with your exaggerations.

And you keep throwing that "other team's fans" reasoning out there and it just doesn't wash. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Bengal. I could care less whose uniform he's wearing. If he was pulling these shenanigans as a Brown, my position wouldn't change. I just don't care for what I perceive to be selfish and showboating players who seem to like to draw attention to themselves. It reeks of ego. And I bet if he wore a Steeler or Brown uniform you wouldn't be defending him; but would be leveling some of the same accusations you trying to lambaste others for holding.

That is TeamSelig for you.

Criticize one of his teams and you are only doing so because you don't like the team.

But when you try to defend your own team against his baseless comments he'll claim you are just being a homer.

Screwball
11-29-2007, 07:45 PM
Chad Johnson: the Adam Dunn of the Bengals? :eek:

SeeinRed
11-29-2007, 08:53 PM
Chad Johnson: the Adam Dunn of the Bengals? :eek:

Touchdowns are rally killers and he sucks on defense. We need to trade him for anything that resembles scrappy.:cool:

GAC
11-29-2007, 09:05 PM
Exaggerations? I was making fun of people who are trying to say that he is hurting the team chemistry, but have nothing to back that up with aside from "analyzing" his celebrations.

Look. Neither you or I know if it's hurting team chemistry or not. I admit it's subjective. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. And no one who disagrees with Johnson's behavior has stated it's the reason why the Bengals are 4-7. Show me where it has been stated? Blame can be aimed in many other areas that is for sure.

I personally could care less if he wants to wear a Mohawk haircut, walk around with his Ocho Cinco or Future HOF jackets on, or his excessive antics after a TD catch.

I never said those particular types of behavior was bad for the team. I just stated, IMHO, that it shows him to be an egotistical player, and yes, at times, a distraction that this team doesn't need right now. That's all. It is not a reflection on his work ethic or talent.

And again - it's not just other team's fans who have been saying that. Do you ever listen to Dave Lapham? What did you think of Boomer's comments at halftime this past weekend over the camera stunt? Both have been pretty harsh/critical.

But you're in denial if you think, and this even goes back to last year and the locker room confrontation after the Pittsburgh loss, to the confrontations he has had this year on the playing field/sidelines with Palmer and Lewis, that it's not having any type of adverse effect. I don't care what you believe, but that "meltdown" in the locker room at halftime was all about Chad upset because he wasn't getting the ball enough. And in that New England game Palmer was running down the field ready to confront Chad. The only thing that stopped him was one of his own lineman grabbing him.

When Chad wore the Ocho Cinco label over the back of his jersey, who went over, while on the sidelines, and ripped it off, while not looking to pleased about it? Carson Palmer.


Chad Johnson is a top receiver in all of the NFL. While a poster above might not want him on their team, any coach/gm/owner/etc. in the NFL would want him on their team. We are a bad team with very few bright spots, and he happens to be one of them. Sorry you guys don't see it that way. This situation is exactly like Adam Dunn's. People want to hate him, but you won't find a statistic or situation where he has hurt his team. Adam Dunn strikes out too much, and Chad Johnson talks too much. I love them both, if i'm exaggerating or not.

Who is debating statistics? T.O. and Keyshawn are/were top receivers in the NFL also, while being complete horse's patoots. Again - if CJ was wearing any other uniform you'd probably be saying the same things many others are.

Have you ever seen the Keyshawn interview of Chad on ESPN NFL Countdown? Quite tense. I will say that I thought it was pretty hypocritical of Keyshawn, being the maverick that he was, to call Chad out and even say he was being a distraction and hurting the team. But Chad responds that he acts the ways he does because that is how KJ used to be.

And the Dunn analogy is a terrible one. Sure, there are those out there that don't care for Dunn because they say he strikes out too much, doesn't hit in the clutch, or whatever. Again - we're not talking about performance/talent; but character/behavior. Dunn isn't out there on that field trying to draw attention to himself and carrying an attitude of "it's all about me."

Chip R
11-29-2007, 09:22 PM
IMO, Chad and Pete did have one thing in common - egos. But growing up watching Pete I don't think he was guilty of showboating. Possible? Sure. But he was no Chad Johnson. I never saw Pete wearing a "Bet I'm a Shoe-in for the HOF" jacket in the dugout. :lol:

You're blinder than I thought you were. Running to 1st base on a walk isn't showboating? Spiking the ball in the turf after the third out isn't showboating? I admit, it's not quite as demonstrative as what Chad does but it's still showboating. And Pete was never shy about telling people how good he was. You've probably heard the story about how he was on a plane and they were having problems and he turned to a teammate sitting next to him and told him that if the plane goes down, he's got a lifetime .300 batting average. another quote from Pete was, "I should have the record for the most records."

GAC
11-29-2007, 09:40 PM
You're blinder than I thought you were. Running to 1st base on a walk isn't showboating?

Not IMO, and when the objective was to possibly catch the other team "napping" and add an extra base. I'm not saying it was a great strategy, or one that was very successful; but I don't see that particularly as showboating.


Spiking the ball in the turf after the third out isn't showboating? I admit, it's not quite as demonstrative as what Chad does but it's still showboating. And Pete was never shy about telling people how good he was. You've probably heard the story about how he was on a plane and they were having problems and he turned to a teammate sitting next to him and told him that if the plane goes down, he's got a lifetime .300 batting average. another quote from Pete was, "I should have the record for the most records."

That gets back to what I stated earlier about ego (arrogance). You'll never hear me deny that Pete wasn't an arrogant SOB. I just don't see that on the same level of behavior as what we're seeing with Chad, in reference to excessive celebrations.

I have no problem with athletes celebrating. For example....

Carlton Fisk watching and waving the ball fair during the '75 WS instead of running to 1B..... Kirk Gibson's pumping his fist rounding 2B after hitting the PH home run, or Clemens when he records the last out and seals a victory.

Were those guys showboating? Maybe. Some may see it that way. To me that is more adrenalin, getting caught up in the moment, as compared to some scripted "performance" that is being planned prior to the event even happening (i.e. TD), and sometimes involving props. It's the overboard/excessive aspect that I disagree with.

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 09:49 PM
Look. Neither you or I know if it's hurting team chemistry or not. I admit it's subjective. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. And no one who disagrees with Johnson's behavior has stated it's the reason why the Bengals are 4-7. Show me where it has been stated? Blame can be aimed in many other areas that is for sure.

I personally could care less if he wants to wear a Mohawk haircut, walk around with his Ocho Cinco or Future HOF jackets on, or his excessive antics after a TD catch.

I never said those particular types of behavior was bad for the team. I just stated, IMHO, that it shows him to be an egotistical player, and yes, at times, a distraction that this team doesn't need right now. That's all. It is not a reflection on his work ethic or talent.

And again - it's not just other team's fans who have been saying that. Do you ever listen to Dave Lapham? What did you think of Boomer's comments at halftime this past weekend over the camera stunt? Both have been pretty harsh/critical.

But you're in denial if you think, and this even goes back to last year and the locker room confrontation after the Pittsburgh loss, to the confrontations he has had this year on the playing field/sidelines with Palmer and Lewis, that it's not having any type of adverse effect. I don't care what you believe, but that "meltdown" in the locker room at halftime was all about Chad upset because he wasn't getting the ball enough. And in that New England game Palmer was running down the field ready to confront Chad. The only thing that stopped him was one of his own lineman grabbing him.

When Chad wore the Ocho Cinco label over the back of his jersey, who went over, while on the sidelines, and ripped it off, while not looking to pleased about it? Carson Palmer.



Who is debating statistics? T.O. and Keyshawn are/were top receivers in the NFL also, while being complete horse's patoots. Again - if CJ was wearing any other uniform you'd probably be saying the same things many others are.

Have you ever seen the Keyshawn interview of Chad on ESPN NFL Countdown? Quite tense. I will say that I thought it was pretty hypocritical of Keyshawn, being the maverick that he was, to call Chad out and even say he was being a distraction and hurting the team. But Chad responds that he acts the ways he does because that is how KJ used to be.

And the Dunn analogy is a terrible one. Sure, there are those out there that don't care for Dunn because they say he strikes out too much, doesn't hit in the clutch, or whatever. Again - we're not talking about performance/talent; but character/behavior. Dunn isn't out there on that field trying to draw attention to himself and carrying an attitude of "it's all about me."

I'm not really understanding where you are coming from. You have stated that:

1) He has good work ethic & talent
2) He is not bad for the team
3) Statistically, he is good

So what is the problem with him then?

- Ocho Cinco started to help support spanish heritage month, and I don't believe Carson was mad at all, that clothing 'rip off' was as staged as Janet & Justin.

- The "meltdown" was never proven to be anything more then a rumor as far as I knew.

- Keyshawn is an idiot, and that cannot be argued.

As for the Dunn analogy, I think it fits perfectly. They are both good players where fans (team or not) search for their weaknesses, find one that is irrelevent and go to town on them. "Experts" are constantly looking for ways to put down the top players. Just like Peyton Manning couldn't win a superbowl. It's a tiring way to get ratings. But since you turned it into character issues, you could find similarities in the fact that people dog on Dunn for being fat and lazy. Can you not?

It's really not that big of a deal, I just think people are being a bit harsh on the best receiver we have had in my lifetime.

MaineRed
11-29-2007, 09:54 PM
So if there was no Chad Johnson it would be unfair to criticize Darnay Scott?

KronoRed
11-29-2007, 10:08 PM
Touchdowns are rally killers and he sucks on defense. We need to trade him for anything that resembles scrappy.:cool:

Steve Tasker = Ryan Freel?

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 10:20 PM
So if there was no Chad Johnson it would be unfair to criticize Darnay Scott?

Great point, MaineRed.

Yachtzee
11-29-2007, 10:32 PM
So if there was no Chad Johnson it would be unfair to criticize Darnay Scott?

Darnay Scott was never that great. A good player for a few seasons, but couldn't hold Chad or TJ's jock, and probably not Chris Henry's either.

MaineRed
11-29-2007, 11:02 PM
Carl Pickens?

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 11:06 PM
Eddie Brown?

GAC
11-29-2007, 11:09 PM
I'm not really understanding where you are coming from. You have stated that:

1) He has good work ethic & talent
2) He is not bad for the team
3) Statistically, he is good

So what is the problem with him then?

It's the over-the-top and excessive celebrations that he choreographs after a TD catch. Their sole intent is to draw attention solely to himself - "look at me".

Chad Johnson wouldn't be jack, or be in the position he is now (one of the best WRs in the NFL) if he didn't have Palmer, or any good QB, back there throwing him the ball... or other solid receivers drawing coverage away from him, or an O-line protecting that QB and allowing him the time to run the route.

There are many other factors in that game, during those plays, that help make that happen.

Secondly - it's when those game time situations aren't going his way, he gets frustrated, and allows his emotions to run amok/get the best of him to the point he not only takes himself out of his game, but his "passion" motivates him into confrontations with other players, whether it's Carson or the head coach. And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, one could easily see they were unnecessary and unwanted distractions that a QB, head coach, and team as a whole, don't need to be facing during game time.


- Ocho Cinco started to help support spanish heritage month

Fine. Do it at a more appropriate time. Many different ways/avenues in which to do it. It was a violation of NFL rules, and cost him $5000. Rules are rules. And whether it's wearing that sign on his back or getting your team a 15 yd unsportsmanlike penalty because of these endzone shows, Chad did it intentionally knowing he was breaking the rules, was probably going to get fined, or that his team was going to get penalized. And he doesn't care. Why? IMHO, because it's all about him.


and I don't believe Carson was mad at all, that clothing 'rip off' was as staged as Janet & Justin.

Didn't look staged to me. Not by the expression on Palmer's face when he went over and jerked it off.


- The "meltdown" was never proven to be anything more then a rumor as far as I knew.

No. The rumor was that there was a physical confrontation in the locker room between CJ and Lewis and Jackson (receivers coach). That aspect was unfounded, and a majority agree that it never happened. But there was a verbal confrontation in that locker room that got pretty heated, and CJ was at the center of it. And their voices were heard and recognized by every media person standing outside that closed locker room door, as well as Dave Lapham who talked about it in length on WLW the next day. I was listening to it.


- Keyshawn is an idiot, and that cannot be argued.

Agreed. But Chad has stated he idolized and wanted to be the type of player that guys like Keyshawn, T.O., and Moss are/were.


But since you turned it into character issues

Turned it into? It's always been an issue of character (behavior) and nothing else. You're ignoring, or enabling the behavior, simply because he's talented. Separate issues with me. So then how can you criticize other team's "flamboyant" and egotistical players who also demonstrate talent/athletic ability?


you could find similarities in the fact that people dog on Dunn for being fat and lazy. Can you not?

No. One's physical characteristics has nothing to do with the way a player acts/behaves on that playing field or in front of the fans/media. And I'm again referring to excessive celebrations intended solely for self promotion. I don't understand why you can't see the difference?



It's really not that big of a deal, I just think people are being a bit harsh on the best receiver we have had in my lifetime.

No, it's not a big deal. And talking about it on a sports forum doesn't make it one either. Just another way of passing the time. ;)

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 11:13 PM
Would any WR be worth anything with a bad QB? That is a given.

WMR
11-29-2007, 11:19 PM
Great points, GAC.

You say you can't quantify a negative attitude on a team's psyche...

wonder what the effect of Chad's hissy fit was during the halftime playoff loss to the Steelers two years ago. You can say none just as easily as I can say a bunch.

WMR
11-29-2007, 11:22 PM
Oh yeah, another thing, don't act like it's only fans of other teams getting tired of Chad's schtick. Me and oneupper--and others--are as big a Bengals fans as anyone else.

There's plenty of blame to go around with these CLOWNS, as Roy Tucker so adeptly labeled them, and Chad's actions, IN MY OPINION, represent everything that is wrong with the "LEADERSHIP" of this team. Chad Johnson is the perfect microcosm of why the Bengals are the Bungles and why the Patriots are Super Bowl Champions.

TeamSelig
11-29-2007, 11:26 PM
Yeah, but you are just frustrated because we are horrible. Not because of Chad.

Yachtzee
11-30-2007, 01:23 AM
Oh yeah, another thing, don't act like it's only fans of other teams getting tired of Chad's schtick. Me and oneupper--and others--are as big a Bengals fans as anyone else.

There's plenty of blame to go around with these CLOWNS, as Roy Tucker so adeptly labeled them, and Chad's actions, IN MY OPINION, represent everything that is wrong with the "LEADERSHIP" of this team. Chad Johnson is the perfect microcosm of why the Bengals are the Bungles and why the Patriots are Super Bowl Champions.

Somehow, I suspect Chad would be welcome on the Patriots. While I do think leadership is lacking, I think that if the mighty Bellicheck were running the Bengals, he'd focus on fixing the problems on defense before concerning himself with Chad. From what I gather, he'd probable leave it to the other players on the team to rein in Chad's antics.

Yachtzee
11-30-2007, 01:25 AM
Would any WR be worth anything with a bad QB? That is a given.

Chad seemed to do well with Kitna before Palmer came along. While Kitna is no Scott Mitchell or Gus Frerotte, he's no Carson Palmer either.

WMR
11-30-2007, 01:28 AM
Somehow, I suspect Chad would be welcome on the Patriots. While I do think leadership is lacking, I think that if the mighty Bellicheck were running the Bengals, he'd focus on fixing the problems on defense before concerning himself with Chad. From what I gather, he'd probable leave it to the other players on the team to rein in Chad's antics.

That's exactly what I was implying in my post.

Yachtzee
11-30-2007, 01:38 AM
That's exactly what I was implying in my post.

Fair enough. The thing is, a lot of the stuff that Chad does is secondary to performance on the field. He has his antics, but he still produces on the field. On the other hand, there are plenty of other players on the team whose performance on the field indicates a lack of leadership and I find that more disconcerting. It confounds me when I see Bengals commentators praise a special teamer like Ethan Kilmer (the classic Ryan Freel type - good in his role but not an every down player), while dogging Chad. Yet who has been more vital in Bengals wins? Or how about that "high-motor" Justin Smith? Yeah, he has a high motor, but he always seems to be motoring right past the QB as the tackle just guides him outside and around. There are more players to be held accountable than just Chad and I feel many are far more responsible for the current situation than Chad.

WMR
11-30-2007, 01:59 AM
I agree with everything you say, Yacht.

GAC
11-30-2007, 06:00 AM
Would any WR be worth anything with a bad QB? That is a given.

Yes, it is a given. And does that receiver have the right, or would he come off looking like a self-serving jerk, when seen on camera giving his QB hell, and then continuing to bend his ear on the sidelines, for either throwing an errant pass/INT?

Carson Palmer is one of the best young QBs in the NFL. But when a QB throws an INT he feels like crap and knows he let his team down. He wants to collect himself and try to put it behind him. The last thing he needs is to have one of his receivers, I don't care how passionate he may be, giving him a hard time.

Do I think there is discord between Palmer and Johnson's relationship? No. I think Palmer realizes that Chad is Chad and there ain't much he can do about it, so he tries to make the best of it and keep it on a professional level. But I think if Carson could speak his heart he'd wish Chad would learn to keep his emotions in check at times and tone it down.

You would think that after a guy has, on several occasions, had to come back and apologize because he allowed his emotions to get the best of him - and to his credit, Chad has done this - a "little light" would go off inside his head telling him to quit wearing his emotions on his sleeve.

If I was an opposing coach/defense, and knowing how volatile Johnson is, I'd do everything I could get to frustrate this guy and get him emotionally worked up. Because it would not only take him out of his game; but turns him into a ticking time bomb on that sidelines.

GAC
11-30-2007, 07:35 AM
Fair enough. The thing is, a lot of the stuff that Chad does is secondary to performance on the field. He has his antics, but he still produces on the field. On the other hand, there are plenty of other players on the team whose performance on the field indicates a lack of leadership and I find that more disconcerting. It confounds me when I see Bengals commentators praise a special teamer like Ethan Kilmer (the classic Ryan Freel type - good in his role but not an every down player), while dogging Chad. Yet who has been more vital in Bengals wins? Or how about that "high-motor" Justin Smith? Yeah, he has a high motor, but he always seems to be motoring right past the QB as the tackle just guides him outside and around. There are more players to be held accountable than just Chad and I feel many are far more responsible for the current situation than Chad.

You're absolutely right Yachtzee. And I agree with you on the aspect of commentators (the Freel analogy) praising hustle while ignoring performance. Very good. But on a different note too - those players aren't trying to draw attention to themselves and have this desire to be in the spotlight. A "spotlight" that has two heads to it.

Anyone who states that the Bengal's woes this year can be laid on the shoulders of Chad Johnson are blindly ignorant and simply looking for a scapegoat for a team that came into '08 with high expectations. Johnson is one very talented receiver. The guy is 4th in the NFL in receiving yards. In fact, he's on pace to surpass his finest year (2005). He has led the AFC in receiving yardage the last 4 years.

And you are right about the leadership. Again a separate issue, as performance is. Is a lack of leadership the root cause why Chad gets away with some of his antics? Would true leadership on this team endure Chad's behavior, try to put it in check, and possibly heighten any friction that may exist, causing Chad to want to exit Cincy?

I understand's Chad's passion/competitive nature. What I don't believe is that he needs these antics to somehow "feed" his emotions and raise his game performance to that high level (like a drug). I think he is selling his own talent/natural ability short. He was aggressively recruited at the college level by Erickson (Oregon State), and was instrumental in their 11-1 season and Feista Bowl victory over Notre Dame. Did he need such antics then? Obviously not since the NCAA would not allow it at the college level.

RFS62
11-30-2007, 08:55 AM
All the Bengal fans taking up for Binky reminds me of Reds fans who used to take up for Marge.

Chip R
11-30-2007, 09:21 AM
All the Bengal fans taking up for Binky reminds me of Reds fans who used to take up for Marge.


Yeah, cause it's exactly the same thing. :rolleyes:

RFS62
11-30-2007, 09:40 AM
Yeah, cause it's exactly the same thing. :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was the same thing. It reminds me that people tend to defend their players even when they don't like what they're doing.

Kind of like if someone from CardinalsZone came over here and called you an eyerolling twit. We'd take up for you.... 'cause you're OUR eyerolling twit, dammit.

:p:

BuckWoody
11-30-2007, 10:02 AM
All the Bengal fans taking up for Binky reminds me of Reds fans who used to take up for Marge.
Nick Saban would be proud of that one. :thumbup:

Wow, this thread is really starting to go downhill fast. :( We need another week of football so we can flush this last one out of our systems. :)

Roy Tucker
11-30-2007, 10:14 AM
I don't think Chad's antics help the team. They may not hurt the team either, but I don't think they help.

But I do think Chad's antics help Chad. I find it interesting that his mid-season slump was after a very good series of opening games where he got criticized for his extra-curriculars. He shut those down, but his game slumped as well. I think he needs that stuff to get himself pumped up. That's just how he is wired.

If he needs a role model, all he has to do is look at TJ. There is a pro's pro.

Redsfaithful
12-01-2007, 06:16 AM
All the Bengal fans taking up for Binky reminds me of Reds fans who used to take up for Marge.

Chad Johnson = a racist old lady that kept Hitler memorabilia in her house? That's what celebrating touchdowns equates to in your mind?

I just don't think it's the issue. 100% of what anyone knows about the Bengals comes from the media, and it seems pretty obvious to me that the media has a bias with Chad Johnson. There's no story if his celebrations really don't bother his teammates, so Mark Curnutte gets some cryptic quotes from Willie Anderson or somebody and all of a sudden the clubhouse is in turmoil.

Yeah Carson and Chad screamed at each other on the field. It was because Chad ran a wrong route, which he admitted later. Carson was reigning him in right there, but instead of Carson getting credit for leadership, it's just one more example of Chad being a distraction and what is wrong with this team?

Offense: 5th in the NFL
Defense: 28th in the NFL

But that's not as fun to talk about. Just like it's not as much fun to talk about Reds relief pitching as it is to talk about Adam Dunn striking out or being "lazy".

The Bengals offense can play with just about anyone, it's the defense that is the problem. Chad Johnson will still be here the next time the Bengals make the playoffs, and everyone will love him again when that happens.

traderumor
12-01-2007, 07:30 AM
Chad seemed to do well with Kitna before Palmer came along. While Kitna is no Scott Mitchell or Gus Frerotte, he's no Carson Palmer either.I want Kitna to retire and come back to be Carson's QB coach. His best year was when Kitna was on the sideline and in his ear both in practice and on the sidelines. Of course, they had a stronger offensive line and a good running game to help out too, but I think that Kitna was a part of Carson's great first year as full-time QB.

traderumor
12-01-2007, 07:37 AM
Oh yeah, another thing, don't act like it's only fans of other teams getting tired of Chad's schtick. Me and oneupper--and others--are as big a Bengals fans as anyone else.

There's plenty of blame to go around with these CLOWNS, as Roy Tucker so adeptly labeled them, and Chad's actions, IN MY OPINION, represent everything that is wrong with the "LEADERSHIP" of this team. Chad Johnson is the perfect microcosm of why the Bengals are the Bungles and why the Patriots are Super Bowl Champions.Chad is not a leader on this team, nor does he have to be. The Bengals problem is lack of talent on D, you fix that, people stop talking about "leadership" and "they're not the Patriots." The Patriots have talent on both sides of the ball. You don't blow people out in the NFL with "leadership", whatever that means. IN MY OPINION, intangibles are highly overrated.

I would compare Chad to KGJ, who are stars with immense talent who sincerely want to win but are more apt to clown around and not take anything too seriously and say what's on their mind than be coaches in the huddle or on the field. And I want guys like that on my team. A whole team of them? No, but I also am not going to push them to be my leaders, I'm gonna ask them to win games for me with big plays in big situations. Both are capable of that and that is their role on the team.

BTW, Willie Anderson is a player who should be respected for his play, but he is a bit of a whiner. Complains about stuff but never seems to have any solutions or take care of problems.

WMR
12-01-2007, 08:26 AM
Somehow, I suspect Chad would be welcome on the Patriots. While I do think leadership is lacking, I think that if the mighty Bellicheck were running the Bengals, he'd focus on fixing the problems on defense before concerning himself with Chad. From what I gather, he'd probable leave it to the other players on the team to rein in Chad's antics.

Quote again, for truth.

WMR
12-01-2007, 08:30 AM
IN MY OPINION, character matters in the NFL, especially in regards to teams adopting a team-first philosophy over the individual, me-first antics of a player such as Chad Johnson.

i.e. The Patriots.

GAC
12-01-2007, 08:55 AM
100% of what anyone knows about the Bengals comes from the media

Respectfully that just is not true. I don't care if one is a Bengal fan or not - opinions, for the most part, are formed by observation. Watching/listening to the games, as well as the actions of the players. Yes, there is some media influence, but not 100%.

And just like a majority of Red fans are able to reason for themselves that the media is wrong when they talk about Dunn striking out too much, they also know that the Bengal's problems can't be solely laid at Chad's feet. I have never said they were.

In the case of Chad, he's an emotional player who craves the spotlight/attention. They want to be seen and incite reactions. Therefore, they need the media, whether it's those cameramen, announcers, ESPN, or print media. What good is wearing props and doing endzone acts if no one is going to witness them?


and it seems pretty obvious to me that the media has a bias with Chad Johnson.

Why? Why would the media, especially the local Cincy media, need to go after Chad? What does it benefit? I'm not saying that the media has always been fair/objective with Chad, but again, when he goes out of his way to draw attention to himself, and no one can deny that he loves the flamboyant, then he has to learn to take the good with the bad. It can't always go his way. And he has done things where he does deserve criticism IMHO.

Not the TD celebrations so much; but situations as seen below....


Yeah Carson and Chad screamed at each other on the field. It was because Chad ran a wrong route, which he admitted later. Carson was reigning him in right there, but instead of Carson getting credit for leadership, it's just one more example of Chad being a distraction and what is wrong with this team?

You obviously didn't watch the same game that many others watched. But the only one who got "reigned in" was a hot Carson who, when sprinting down the field to obviously confront Chad, was prevented from doing so because he was grabbed by one of his own players to hold him back.

Now why would one of your own players grab you, with the objective to restrain you, if he didn't think that it was about to possibly turn into an ugly situation between your QB and highly emotional WR?

As I stated earlier - I felt sorry for Carson. And yes, I do think it shows Chad's selfish side. Why? Your QB throws an INT, and the last thing any QB needs at that moment is for his WR to continually be confronting him over on the sidelines faulting the QB. Even if the QB was at fault, and it happens every Sunday, you don't compound his "misery" after an INT by doing what he did on the sidelines. You're right, Chad later on came back and apologized and said he ran the wrong route.

And that gets back to a point some have made earlier - maybe try to think before you act, and quit wearing your emotions on your sleeve when it's not going to benefit anyone, and possibly cause trouble. And to say that that particular situation wasn't a distraction is not dealing in reality IMHO.


Offense: 5th in the NFL
Defense: 28th in the NFL

But that's not as fun to talk about. Just like it's not as much fun to talk about Reds relief pitching as it is to talk about Adam Dunn striking out or being "lazy".

The Bengals offense can play with just about anyone, it's the defense that is the problem.

Yes the defense is terrible. And every Sunday on the Bengal game threads, and the week following, this defense is consistently talked about.

Again - no one who disagrees with CJ's antics, has stated that they were the sole cause of the Bengal's woes this season. This keeps being brought up and no one is saying that on here to the best of my knowledge. Fingers can be pointed in many areas on this team, and people have said that.

Roy puts it most aptly.....


I don't think Chad's antics help the team. They may not hurt the team either, but I don't think they help.

Finally - It was Chad Johnson who felt he needed to make an announcement that he wouldn't celebrate touchdowns until the team reached .500.

So besides his possible character flaws, the guy doesn't know math. :D

bucksfan2
12-01-2007, 10:22 AM
Why? Why would the media, especially the local Cincy media, need to go after Chad? What does it benefit? I'm not saying that the media has always been fair/objective with Chad, but again, when he goes out of his way to draw attention to himself, and no one can deny that he loves the flamboyant, then he has to learn to take the good with the bad. It can't always go his way. And he has done things where he does deserve criticism IMHO.


The local media is horrible in this city. And the media does have a bias in this city because a guy like Chad and Marvin are more likely to go to a national guy than a local guy. I have seen multiple interviews with Chad one ESPN but the local guys get nothing.

As for respect, I am sure he is one of the most respected players on the bengals. Football is not a 3 hour sport. What you do behind the scenes, what you do away from the cameras is where you gain respect.

RFS62
12-01-2007, 10:32 AM
Chad Johnson = a racist old lady that kept Hitler memorabilia in her house? That's what celebrating touchdowns equates to in your mind?


That's a pretty ridiculous twisting of what I said.

Maybe I didn't say it well enough.

You tend to take up for your own people, even when you may not be happy with what they're doing.

Agree, disagree... whatever. But save that Hitler memorabilia drama.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-01-2007, 10:49 AM
Back in highschool if a player would have been flagged for doing the kind of stupid things Chad does we would have all whized in the soap dishes and splashed him in the face when he was showering.

westofyou
12-01-2007, 11:02 AM
Chad Johnson = a racist old lady that kept Hitler memorabilia in her house? That's what celebrating touchdowns equates to in your mind?

Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

:laugh:

All fans of NFL football defend their clowns and slam the other teams clowns, day in and day out.

They're all clowns from where I sit, I see more moronic antics in 10 minutes of football (from both sides of the ball) then I do in a whole season of baseball. They're all too proud of doing what they are paid for and they all think they that they have a little Catskill Entertainer in them.

I find it a turn off, they're all a bunch of fools in my book.

WMR
12-01-2007, 11:06 AM
Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

:laugh:

All fans of NFL football defend their clowns and slam the other teams clowns, day in and day out.

They're all clowns from where I sit, I see more moronic antics in 10 minutes of football (from both sides of the ball) then I do in a whole season of baseball. They're all too proud of doing what they are paid for and they all think they that they have a little Catskill Entertainer in them.

I find it a turn off, they're all a bunch of fools in my book.

Guess you've never seen Carson Palmer, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Cris Collinsworth... and a few hundred other NFL athletes I could name.

Pretty weak generalization.

westofyou
12-01-2007, 11:13 AM
Guess you've never seen Carson Palmer, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Cris Collinsworth... and a few hundred other NFL athletes I could name.

Pretty weak generalization.

Weak?

I've seen Charlie Joiner, Charlie Sanders, Isaac Curtis, John Stallworth, Lance Alworth, Bob Hayes, Fred Biletnikoff, Harold Jackson, Lynn Swan, etc... I think I have a broad view of the increase in celebrations within the league.

Shoot, it's happened in Basketball and Baseball too, not hockey though, you'd get knocked on your rear if you played the crowd like it was all about your magic.

SeeinRed
12-01-2007, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure how this love/hate Chad thread is still going. Its one of those topics that has been beat to death. The way I look at it is this, you can hate Chad and what he does all you want, but his results are not debatable. I think I saw that somebody wrote he was having a bad season. I just had to look at that and shake my head. He may not be in the endzone as much as some like, but his yards are still there. He is #4 in recieving yards, #5 in yards per game, and tied with a lump of recievers for 14th with 6 TD's. If I was a betting man, I'd put money on him finishing higher in TD's by the end of the year. If thats what happens in a down year for Chad, then you have to admidt that he is a special player. It isn't that he can't back up the talking, its that people don't like the talking or the show boating. I'm willing to bet that if he was just another run of the mill reciever, you wouldn't hear the talk or see the celebrations. He is a special player. If you don't like him, do like I do to Shakira, Fergie, and Beyonce videos, mute the TV. Now, I know its not that easy, but if he gets under your skin, just ignore the guy. I don't like the constant showboating. I hate when people have to draw attention to themselves. But thats Chad, and if you want his talent, you have to take his personality.

This thread has been interesting so far, but I don't know how you can argue over wether you should love him or hate him. Thats a personal decision, and once it is made it is very hard to change it. He puts up results, the Bengals failure has nothing to do with Chad, and yes he does showboat. None of that is questionable IMO. Should the Bengals trade him? Maybe that is debatable, but who will pick up the slack? They have no impact recievers in waiting IMHO. How do you replace Chad's numbers? Trading him for the sake of trading him makes no sense what so ever.

Again, if I were a betting man, I'd put a lot of money on Chad not being traded and I'd already be trying to decide what to do with my winnings. It just doesn't make any sense other than in the sports writers heads who want to create a buzz. When was the last time an player of Chad's caliber was traded just because he was thought to be selfish? He is locked up at under market value at that. I have yet to see one good argument for why he should be traded. Personality isn't a good enough reason IMHO.

SeeinRed
12-01-2007, 12:39 PM
All fans of NFL football defend their clowns and slam the other teams clowns, day in and day out.


The players being clowns isn't as weak as this generalization. I don't like slamming anybody in the NFL. TO isn't even worth slamming in my book, and he is on the top of almost everyone's list. I just don't think that you can slam a player for being a clown in a league that enables players to act like clowns. The stage these players play on every sunday is huge. They are very talented, but some feel it necessary to "entertain." Thats fine, and some people even like it. It doesn't take away from the parts of the game that I like IMO. I like the intensity. I like the strategy. I don't like the showboating, but its part of the game. No game is perfect, but that shouldn't keep me from enjoying it.

westofyou
12-01-2007, 01:04 PM
The players being clowns isn't as weak as this generalization. I don't like slamming anybody in the NFL. TO isn't even worth slamming in my book, and he is on the top of almost everyone's list. I just don't think that you can slam a player for being a clown in a league that enables players to act like clowns. The stage these players play on every sunday is huge. They are very talented, but some feel it necessary to "entertain." Thats fine, and some people even like it. It doesn't take away from the parts of the game that I like IMO. I like the intensity. I like the strategy. I don't like the showboating, but its part of the game. No game is perfect, but that shouldn't keep me from enjoying it.

It's not a generalization, I think everyone sees their team in a different light then they see their opponents, thus they give more slack to their colors and more crap to the others. It's the nature of the beast, we all do it to some extent. Whether defending the antics of the celebration or the skill set of the guys doing the celebration.

SeeinRed
12-01-2007, 01:07 PM
It's not a generalization, I think everyone sees their team in a different light then they see their opponents, thus they give more slack to their colors and more crap to the others. It's the nature of the beast, we all do it to some extent. Whether defending the antics of the celebration or the skill set of the guys doing the celebration.

Sorry, misunderstanding. I took it as a dig at NFL fans since you specifically said "All fans of NFL football." It happens in every sport, you are right.

TeamSelig
12-01-2007, 02:26 PM
The reason hockey players don't celebrate is because there are no fans to celebrate and show off to!

Just messin WOY

TeamSelig
12-01-2007, 02:31 PM
Also, why does anyone care if Chad Johnson is in fact the root of all evil? Just curious. Be happy that your team can beat ours with Ocho Cinco ruining everything for us.

Nice Marge reference too.

wheels
12-01-2007, 04:21 PM
It's not a generalization, I think everyone sees their team in a different light then they see their opponents, thus they give more slack to their colors and more crap to the others. It's the nature of the beast, we all do it to some extent. Whether defending the antics of the celebration or the skill set of the guys doing the celebration.

I do agree with you to an extent.

It does make me think about something, though.

You compared Football to Hockey, and Baseball. Both have games that are played more than once per week.

In the NFL, a game is worth more. It's the punctuation of a grueling week of practice, and especially in Chad's case all night film prep. and the like. The guy absolutely lives the game Monday through Saturday. The same can be said for a good majority of NFL players. Not mention the immense physical trauma they will endure later in life.

Like most of the greats, he works harder than most anyone on the team. There have been stories about Chad calling Marvin at 2:30 a.m., not to get bailed out of jail, but to ask about certain coverages, etc. He sleeps in a cot at the stadium some nights.

These stories aren't hard to find, but they do go largely ignored by the Sunday morning pundits. The worst thing someone can say about him off the field is that he eats too much fast food.

Sunday is playtime for the average NFL player. Is it any wonder that we see numerous guys blowing off steam? They aren't all of the so called "thug" variety, either.

Don't get me wrong. Hockey players work their tails off, and I respect that game because of the toughness it requires, but big plays happen more often for them, as well as in Baseball. Games are part of the grind, not the escape from it. Living in a Hockey town, I see what these guys do when they aren't playing. It ranges from Tyler Wright walking around with his kids, to Rusty Klesla doing something I'd rather leave to the imagination. Everyone blows off steam in their own way, and I pay it no mind.

As an aside, what would become of Chris Henry if he were mandated to live with Chad Johnson during the season? Does anyone think we wouldn't see a different person?

That's a leader to me. Celebrations or not.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 04:37 PM
If what Chad does is "part of the game" how come Wes Welker doesn't act like that?

blumj
12-01-2007, 05:13 PM
If what Chad does is "part of the game" how come Wes Welker doesn't act like that?
Because he doesn't want to, it's not his personality. Plenty of players on good teams do, though. How come no one ever makes such a big deal over it when defensive players act like jackasses over every little tackle?

GAC
12-01-2007, 05:41 PM
How come no one ever makes such a big deal over it when defensive players act like jackasses over every little tackle?

They do. I've stated before that my position is pretty "old school" in that I can't stand the excessive showboating and selfish "me" attitude that has invaded the NFL. No player is an "island" as far as I'm concerned.

I think most fans don't like it.

Do a forum search. You'll find at least four threads alone, started by Bengal fans, on Joey Porter. And they have started numerous threads on other team's players, involving personal behavior/character, that they have found to be objectionable or disagree with.

And again it should be noted that it was a Bengal fan who started this thread on CJ. So it's not like some other team fan is trying to start this controversy.

blumj
12-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Yet don't talk about one of their own in Chad Johnson?
Aren't they? No one being critical of him here is a Bengals fan?

Chip R
12-01-2007, 05:55 PM
You tend to take up for your own people, even when you may not be happy with what they're doing.


I'm defending the guy and I'm not a Bengals fan.

When the local teams here do poorly, the superstars get the blame. It's happened for decades. Chad's an easy target because he's so flamboyant and Cincinnati isn't.

GAC
12-01-2007, 06:00 PM
When the local teams here do poorly, the superstars get the blame.

But this criticism of Chad just didn't start this year and with the Bengals losing. Sure, some in the media may be trying to make him the scapegoat; but a majority of objective fans can see right through that. His behavior was being criticised/scrutinized when they were winning too.

Chip R
12-01-2007, 06:07 PM
But this criticism of Chad just didn't start this year and with the Bengals losing. Sure, some in the media may be trying to make him the scapegoat; but a majority of objective fans can see right through that. His behavior was being criticised/scrutinized when they were winning too.


No, it wasn't. Everybody thought he was cool and funny and great until the team didn't take the next step after that 12-4 year. Sure, some said that they didn't care for the end zone celebrations but nobody called him selfish and a cancer.

GAC
12-01-2007, 06:08 PM
Aren't they? No one being critical of him here is a Bengals fan?

Sorry. I didn't mean to edit my post before you had a chance to respond; but sure, many Bengal fans disagree with Chad's behavior. But when a Bengal fan(s) comes on here and says it's basically no concern, nor the business of, other team fans to be commenting on this situation, when they themselves post threads and make comments on the behavior of other team players, then I find that somewhat hypocritical.

With me, it's not about the fact that it involves a Bengal player. It could be any player.

GAC
12-01-2007, 06:14 PM
No, it wasn't. Everybody thought he was cool and funny and great until the team didn't take the next step after that 12-4 year. Sure, some said that they didn't care for the end zone celebrations but nobody called him selfish and a cancer.

So which is it? :lol:

I don't think the cancer accusations came down till this season, and in large part in thanks to the media; but last year a lot were commenting on Chad, and while recognizing his talent, accused him of being selfish. I don't know where you've been, but this has been talked about and debated for the last year or two in many circles.

And IMHO, Chad thrives on that.

Chip R
12-01-2007, 06:24 PM
So which is it? :lol:

I don't think the cancer accusations came down till this season, and in large part in thanks to the media; but last year a lot were commenting on Chad, and while recognizing his talent, accused him of being selfish. I don't know where you've been, but this has been talked about and debated for the last year or two in many circles.

And IMHO, Chad thrives on that.


I don't think anyone thrives on being called a cancer and blamed for losing.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 06:27 PM
But when a Bengal fan(s) comes on here and says it's basically no concern, nor the business of, other team fans to be commenting on this situation, when they themsleves post threads and make comments on the behavior of other team players, then I find that somewhat hypocritical.


Couldn't agree more. There are folks who want to have it both ways. They don't want to hear a bad word about guys like Chad but as you say feel it neccessary to jump on anyone who so much as blinks when they should be doing something else.

Everyone is an expert on all teams but when it comes to THEIR team only they are allowed to comment. I understand if some Cub fan was here bashing the Reds but this isn't BengalZone or Buckeye Zone.

camisadelgolf
12-01-2007, 06:55 PM
True or false: Chad Johnson has helped the team more than he has hurt it.

Well, seeing as how he's led the AFC in receiving yards the past few years (and is barely in second place this year), I'd say his performance on the field isn't hurting the Bengals too much. Granted, he's had some drops (some at key times), but he's also had some amazing catches (also, some at key times). Not only that but he draws double- and triple-teams, which free up the other receivers. And how many penalties has he received from his celebrations? Well, there was the one against Tennessee. The Bengals squeaked that one out 35-6, but that was probably luck since Chad Johnson is such a cancer.

As far his personality goes, you don't hear about anyone on the team disliking him. You hear some stories about people disliking players like Odell Thurman and Chris Henry, but I've heard nothing but good things about Chad Johnson from Bengals players. I think the most negative thing I've heard about him in his recent memory from someone on the Bengals is that he needs to work on his downfield blocking (which he's improved on quite a bit this year).

How does he hurt the team's reputation? Well, the Bengals' reputation has basically revolved around Chris Henry, Odell Thurman, Reggie McNeal, Johnathan Joseph, Frostee Rucker, Eric Steinbach, A.J. Nicholson, Matthias Askew, etc. Meanwhile, Chad Johnson hasn't been arrested.

Chad Johnson's jersey sells very well. He gets the Bengals tons of publicity they wouldn't normally have. He isn't over-paid. He gets the job done on the field. Occasionally, he might 'blow up' or show an attitude, but he does it because he cares.

Is Chad Johnson selfish? Well, yeah, maybe a little, but when has it actually hurt the team? When the Bengals win, you don't hear him complain about not getting the ball, but if they lose, you might hear him grumble a bit, but that's only because he feels like he can help the team when he has the ball.

What it all boils down to is that some people, especially in a city like Cincinnati, hate the flamboyancy that Chad Johnson displays, and not only that, people, in general, love to complain. Johnson isn't a problem unless you want to see him that way. The truth is, the Bengals haven't been winning because of the defense.

GAC
12-01-2007, 06:59 PM
I don't think anyone thrives on being called a cancer and blamed for losing.

And I've stated consistently on here that I disagree with that assertion. Causing disruptions at times is not the same as being a cancer IMO. But I just think his flamboyant behavior is the root cause for a lot of the accusations/characterizations that many throw at him. Some, I think, is justified. Some is not. I separate the wheat from the chaff.

I just think he is, at times, his own worst enemy.

Chip R
12-01-2007, 07:42 PM
And I've stated consistently on here that I disagree with that assertion. Causing disruptions at times is not the same as being a cancer IMO. But I just think his flamboyant behavior is the root cause for a lot of the accusations/characterizations that many throw at him. Some, I think, is justified. Some is not. I separate the wheat from the chaff.

I just think he is, at times, his own worst enemy.


You and RFS are just grumpy cause these guys don't wear leather helmets anymore. ;)

Not everybody can be like Marvin Harrison and hand the ball off to the official when they score. Just like everybody can't be Chad Johnson and break out a routine when they score. Sure he gets upset when he doesn't get the ball. That's not always necessarily a good thing but I think he honestly believes that the more he gets the ball, the better the team will do. Does he get upset at times? Of course. Happens to the best of them. I've seen Dan Marino chew out receivers for not running he right routes or some transgression. Nobody ever said that Marino was the reason the Dolphins lost. Football is an emotional game played by a lot of high strung guys. Tempers run high. Sometimes guys get upset at their teammates. A lot of times it's out in front of the cameras and the whole world to see. What we don't see or hear about are any apologies that are made in private. If you want to talk about disruptions, talk about the guys who keep getting arrested, not about someone who is an upstanding citizen who works hard on the field and in practice who always wants to get better.

GAC
12-01-2007, 07:56 PM
A lot of times it's out in front of the cameras and the whole world to see. What we don't see or hear about are any apologies that are made in private.

And the fact that it's in front of the cameras is why a player should use better discretion. It's funny - Chad wants the cameras to catch him when he's wearing his props or doing his celebration; but not when he's showing selfish behavior or having a verbal confrontaion with his QB, head coach, or other players, that some how should be overlooked or not discussed.


If you want to talk about disruptions, talk about the guys who keep getting arrested, not about someone who is an upstanding citizen who works hard on the field and in practice who always wants to get better.

The fact that CJ hasn't been arrested has nothing to do with the fact that his behavior, at times, hasn't been a disruption, or that he can be an egotistical and selfish player.

We can name an awful lot of players who act like jerks because of their "me" attitude, yet never have been arrested. And they are still jerks. ;)

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 09:13 PM
I never understood why everyone thinks someone getting arrested, especially a lesser player is some big "disruption". If someone I work with gets arrested on their free time, the last thing I am is disrupted.

I'm more disrupted when they are walking around during work telling me and the rest of the world how frigging great they are. I work with someone like that and I'd like to punch him, no matter how well he happens to do his job. And everyone else I know would like to punch him as well. If he got arrested, I wouldn't care.

Screwball
12-01-2007, 09:24 PM
I never understood why everyone thinks someone getting arrested, especially a lesser player is some big "disruption". If someone I work with gets arrested on their free time, the last thing I am is disrupted.

I'm more disrupted when they are walking around during work telling me and the rest of the world how frigging great they are. I work with someone like that and I'd like to punch him, no matter how well he happens to do his job. And everyone else I know would like to punch him as well. If he got arrested, I wouldn't care.

I know what you're saying, but I think the disruption has more to do with the media scrutiny and pressures they face subsequent to the arrest, rather than the arrest itself.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 09:28 PM
I think all that is overblow once the game starts.

These guys aren't football robots. They have real lives, real pressures besides football. They don't need an idiot 3rd string WR to distract them. The media is going to have something to ask them. If it isn't the guy being arrested it is the fight Carson and Chad had on the sidelines or something else. The guy being arrested actually keeps guys like Chad Johnson from being the disruption.

When it comes to disruptions, Chad is a giant wine stain. A guy being arrested is like pouring grape juice on the stain to cover it up.

Chip R
12-01-2007, 09:29 PM
I never understood why everyone thinks someone getting arrested, especially a lesser player is some big "disruption". If someone I work with gets arrested on their free time, the last thing I am is disrupted.



If they are getting suspended because of it then, yeah, it's a distraction.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 09:42 PM
I would call getting suspended, letting your team down or weakening your team but I wouldn't really call it a distraction. Chad and Carson don't spend 3 hours on Sunday thinking about Chris Henry.

Is it a distraction if the media brings it up? Yeah, to the media. It distracts them from asking about something else. It distracts them from Chad Johnson's antics. On the Bengals, guys like Chris Henry and Odell Thurman and Ickey Woods help Chad instead of distracting him.

If the Bengals didn't have guys getting arrested, Chad would be a much bigger "distraction".

Screwball
12-01-2007, 09:59 PM
I don't think anybody's claiming Chad and Carson are sitting there on 3rd and 7 wondering about Chris Henry's record. However, if it negatively affects the team's preparation prior to Sunday or perhaps even begins to divide the locker room, then it becomes a distraction.

Perhaps all the arrests last year weren't a distraction. I wasn't in the locker room, I don't know. But to act as though it absolutely has no negative effect is being a little naive, IMHO.

Yachtzee
12-01-2007, 10:00 PM
If they are getting suspended because of it then, yeah, it's a distraction.

Especially if it's a Thurman or a Henry, both of whom figured prominently in the team's game plan when they were suspended.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 10:48 PM
So you don't think Chad Johnson's behavior is capable of dividing the locker room?

I don't see how a suspenion on the surface is any different than a guy getting hurt. Neither is what I would call a distraction. If Carson Palmer got hurt to start the year, nobody would claim, "boy, this is going to be a tough distraction to overcome." And nobody would call it a distraction if Carson Palmer got caught with a trunk full of meth and got suspended for the season. Someone not playing isn't a distraction per se, it is just a loss.

Screwball
12-01-2007, 11:22 PM
So you don't think Chad Johnson's behavior is capable of dividing the locker room?


Is it capable of dividing the locker room? I think so. Is it? Depends on whose quote you go by. Personally, I don't think it is but I have no way of knowing for sure one way or the other.

My point earlier in the thread is that this latest camera incident is not that big of a deal at this point in a lost season. I also believe that while Chad Johnson's occasional perceived attitude problems are an issue, it pales in comparison to the players and coaches on the defensive side of the ball.

Lastly, I think that the 10 arrests in such a short time last year really messed with the cohesiveness of the team. They seemed to lack focus in big moments, and lost games they really shouldn't have lost. I think a lack of focus was evident, and that was a direct result of dealing with distractions throughout the season.

deltachi8
12-02-2007, 12:00 PM
I never understood why everyone thinks someone getting arrested, especially a lesser player is some big "disruption". If someone I work with gets arrested on their free time, the last thing I am is disrupted.



And how many reporters ask you about your co-worker who was arrested? How many stories in the papers, talk shows, blogs, smoke signals are produced about it?

When they are high profile players, as Chip pointed out - ones that are counted on in your game plan - you bet it is a distraction.

MaineRed
12-02-2007, 01:46 PM
So the reports and the blog articles and all that go away when people don't get arrested?

Playing the "reporters are asking questions card" means that the Patriots are distracted by the spygate scandal and the questions about them running up the score and the undefeated record.

This is the big time, the questions, the pressures are going to be there no matter what. A guy on the Bengals getting arrested is just a big as a distraction to the media as it keeps them off the back of Chad. When things are calm on the legal front the talk is all about Chad.

I concede suspensions and the such hurt the team. I just question all this "distraction" talk. Teams are only distracted when they are losing.

camisadelgolf
12-02-2007, 02:15 PM
So the reports and the blog articles and all that go away when people don't get arrested?

Playing the "reporters are asking questions card" means that the Patriots are distracted by the spygate scandal and the questions about them running up the score and the undefeated record.

This is the big time, the questions, the pressures are going to be there no matter what. A guy on the Bengals getting arrested is just a big as a distraction to the media as it keeps them off the back of Chad. When things are calm on the legal front the talk is all about Chad.

I concede suspensions and the such hurt the team. I just question all this "distraction" talk. Teams are only distracted when they are losing.

I agree with you to an extent. I don't think these things are nearly the distraction the media makes them out to be, but I do, on the other hand, think it is some distraction--just not enough to make the difference of six wins/losses or anything like that.

TeamSelig
12-02-2007, 04:19 PM
Couldn't agree more. There are folks who want to have it both ways. They don't want to hear a bad word about guys like Chad but as you say feel it neccessary to jump on anyone who so much as blinks when they should be doing something else.

Everyone is an expert on all teams but when it comes to THEIR team only they are allowed to comment. I understand if some Cub fan was here bashing the Reds but this isn't BengalZone or Buckeye Zone.

I understand that, but some of you guys are really getting into it, and I'm just wondering what you want us (Johnson fans) to say?

Redsfaithful
12-02-2007, 05:42 PM
That's a pretty ridiculous twisting of what I said.

Maybe I didn't say it well enough.

You tend to take up for your own people, even when you may not be happy with what they're doing.

Agree, disagree... whatever. But save that Hitler memorabilia drama.

I just think it's pretty ridiculous to compare people defending Chad to fans defending Marge back in the day. Of course people are homers, that's not exactly anything new, but defending someone who repeatedly made racist remarks just isn't the same as defending someone who celebrates after scoring touchdowns. It's a bizarre comparison.

GAC
12-04-2007, 08:07 AM
I just think it's pretty ridiculous to compare people defending Chad to fans defending Marge back in the day. Of course people are homers, that's not exactly anything new, but defending someone who repeatedly made racist remarks just isn't the same as defending someone who celebrates after scoring touchdowns. It's a bizarre comparison.

Was the "whole" of Marge's persona defined by racist remarks? No. At least it shouldn't be. Yet you seem to think so.

And I say that as one who was no huge fan of hers. But I am not from Cincy, so I didn't completely understand the "affection" many in that local community had for her. And that may be IT. She was not only a very prominent business person in Cincy, but also the owner of the Reds. She had her problems with her peers in the business industry, in which a majority were males. She definitely was a character. But she was also very involved (and close) with the community and it's people. She loved them, and they loved her, warts and all, and regardless of her outspoken and blunt nature.

She was the last person to bring the city a World Series.

And all those variables influenced many within that local community to blindly accept her, and at times, defend her, while seemingly overlooking those many flaws.

No one, including rfs, is saying that her character flaws pr personality are comparable to, or on the same level, as those of Chad Johnson. That is not the issue at all.

Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else, think of Marge (and Chad) they have brought positive things to the community (fans). No one has denied that. And that causes many of those people, at times, to put on "blinders" when that individual's behavior may prove to be an embarrassment.