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WMR
10-25-2007, 05:42 PM
Willie Anderson has been ruled out of Sunday's game. Who will start in his place?

CTA513
10-25-2007, 05:43 PM
Willie Anderson has been ruled out of Sunday's game. Who will start in his place?

Stacy Andrews will likely start at RT.

WMR
10-25-2007, 05:44 PM
Heya CTA: I saw the Bengals clips you posted on YouTube. Funny stuff!!

I especially liked the one with Chris Henry telling the ref to ummm... how to say it... "get out of his way?" :lol: :laugh:

Cedric
10-25-2007, 05:51 PM
I'll be there loud and proud. Hopefully I don't see what I saw that fateful night in 05. I was a little pickled and ready to pound on Joey Porter. And I would have won of course.

WMR
10-25-2007, 05:52 PM
I'll be there loud and proud. Hopefully I don't see what I saw that fateful night in 05. I was a little pickled and ready to pound on Joey Porter. And I would have won of course.

Nah, his 5 man entourage would have blindsided you while you had Joey in a headlock. That's how he rolls.

dabvu2498
10-25-2007, 06:01 PM
Nah, his 5 man entourage would have blindsided you while you had Joey in a headlock. That's how he rolls.

He's also got some mean dogs. My mini-horse told me so.

WMR
10-25-2007, 06:02 PM
He's also got some mean dogs. My mini-horse told me so.

Hahahahahahaha... that's GOOD. :lol: :laugh:

WMR
10-25-2007, 06:03 PM
:lol: "Mini Horse" :lol:

Degenerate39
10-25-2007, 06:55 PM
Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please let the Bengals win this game.

SunDeck
10-25-2007, 07:09 PM
Bengals 2, Steelers 79.

SunDeck
10-25-2007, 07:10 PM
No wait, their defense can't score a point, I'll make it 79-3 and give the credit to Shane Graham for kicking a 65 yard FG.

camisadelgolf
10-25-2007, 07:11 PM
Bengals 2, Steelers 79.

I think that's a pretty accurate tally of the penalty yardage. Let's make guesses on the final score now. The Bengals defense has been ice cold this year, so I'll say 49-20 after the Bengals allow some garbage points in the fourth quarter. The game won't even be close. The Steelers are the most overrated team in the NFL right now.

GoReds33
10-25-2007, 07:40 PM
I really think that we can beat the Steelers. Atleast we can focus on not letting Ben beat us, and put the pressure on their running game.

sonny
10-25-2007, 07:56 PM
We all seem to be forgetting that Willie Parker is out for this game too. I really think that we can beat the Steelers. Atleast we can focus on not letting Ben beat us, and put the pressure on their running game.

Toothlessburger is definitely their team chair. If he's having a bad game, everybody seems to suck. If he's on, everything seems to be clicking. Heres to Large Ben to have a bad one.:beerme:

deltachi8
10-25-2007, 07:57 PM
We all seem to be forgetting that Willie Parker is out for this game too. I really think that we can beat the Steelers. Atleast we can focus on not letting Ben beat us, and put the pressure on their running game.

Where are you getting that Parker is out?

GoReds33
10-25-2007, 08:01 PM
Where are you getting that Parker is out?My bad. I was mislead by the title of the Bengals blog on Cincinnati.com. I fixed it. Sorry fellas.:)

guttle11
10-25-2007, 08:22 PM
I think the biggest key to the game is the Steelers gameplan. If they come out and pound the ball with Parker and Davenport all day, the Bengals don't have a chance.

If they come out like they did against Denver, the Steelers don't have a chance.

Patrick Bateman
10-25-2007, 08:55 PM
I don't see any scenario in which we win this game.

I'm just hoping it's watchable.

WVRed
10-25-2007, 10:23 PM
Willie Parker will rush for 150+ yards. While I agree that the Steelers are overrated, the Bengals are much worse right now. Any team with a quality running back should run right over the Bengals.

Pittsburgh 35, Cincinnati 14

macro
10-26-2007, 12:41 AM
I mentioned this in Edskin's thread, but the Bengals are a streaky team, so they're now due their annual winning streak that gets them to .500 and gives the fanbase the false impression that it may be a playoff season. Watch them run off three wins in a row, including this Sunday against Pittsburgh, an overrated team.

TeamSelig
10-26-2007, 01:24 AM
Hmm... common knowlegde leads me to believe that there is no way we win this game. The whole "rivalry" thing might keep the game close, but I really don't see how we win this game.

camisadelgolf
10-26-2007, 05:37 AM
I'm sorry to break the news, but Roethlisberger is not a good quarterback. He's average at best. I'm over-simplifying, of course, but all the Bengals have to do is focus on the running game and let Roethlisberger lose the game for the Steelers. He always tries to do something he's incapable of (which is be good), and he's going to cost the Steelers the game.

WMR
10-26-2007, 06:19 AM
Carson has more talent and ability than Roethlisberger in his pinky toe.

GAC
10-26-2007, 10:48 AM
I'm sorry to break the news, but Roethlisberger is not a good quarterback. He's average at best. I'm over-simplifying, of course, but all the Bengals have to do is focus on the running game and let Roethlisberger lose the game for the Steelers. He always tries to do something he's incapable of (which is be good), and he's going to cost the Steelers the game.

The Bengals have tried that appraoch before with Ben... and lost. ;)

Granted - Roethlisberger didn't shine last year versus the Bengals; but prior to '06, he has had his way with them pretty much.

Here is a comparison between QB's in last years two meetings, which the teams split.....


C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT
Palmer 18/26 193 7.4 4 2
Roethlisberger 18/39 208 5.3 0 3

Palmer 20/38 251 6.6 2 0
Roethlisberger 19/28 280 10.0 1 1

Overall, since 2004, Ben is 4-2 vs the Bengals, and has never lost at Cincinnati, with a QB rating of 98.4 playing there.

And while I would like nothing more then to see the Bengals beat Pittsburgh, who leads our division...... Ben is not their problem. Ben doesn't have to be spectacular, just good enough.

Can the Bengals stop Willie Parker is the bigger issue. ;)

People talk about how miserable the Bengal's defense is, but they also need to take a good hard look at this offensive line. Palmer has been scrambling and running his butt off. Pitt is going to blitz him terribly I feel.

TeamSelig
10-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Ben is good at the short passes though, which is what seems to really hurt us.

macro
10-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Hmm... common knowlegde leads me to believe that there is no way we win this game. The whole "rivalry" thing might keep the game close, but I really don't see how we win this game.

I don't either, but I'm still picking the Bengals, based on history alone. Even in the darkest hours of this franchise's history, they've found ways to beat Pittsburgh.

In 1980, the 0-2 Bengals defeated the 2-0 Steelers. Three weeks later, they met again, this time with the Bengals 1-4 and the Steelers 4-1. Cincinnati won again. They were 2-0 vs Pittsburgh and 0-4 against the rest of the league, while the Steelers were 0-2 against the Bengals and 4-0 against the rest of the league. That Bengals team managed only six wins all season, but they were much better than their 6-10 record indicated, and proved it the next year by going to the Super Bowl.

More recently, in 1998, the Bengals went 3-13. Wanna guess who two of those three wins came against? Yep, the division rivals. They were 2-0 against Pittsburgh and 1-13 vs the rest of the teams on their schedule.

What does all of this ancient history have to do with this Sunday's game? Many would say "Absolutely nothing. The games are played, won, and lost on the field, not in some record book."

However, in my 30+ years of watching this league, I've learned that certain historical trends cannot be ignored, and people who give betting advice will agree. That's probably why the Bengals are only a 3-point underdog.

I'll admit that I cherry picked two specific seasons to make my point, but hopefully it illustrates that, no matter how bad the Bengals season goes, it doesn't necessarily carry over to the Pittsburgh game.

On the other hand, the Steelers have a history of winning at PBS, so maybe one cancels out the other.

:dunno: :D

SteelSD
10-26-2007, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry to break the news, but Roethlisberger is not a good quarterback. He's average at best. I'm over-simplifying, of course, but all the Bengals have to do is focus on the running game and let Roethlisberger lose the game for the Steelers. He always tries to do something he's incapable of (which is be good), and he's going to cost the Steelers the game.

You're not "breaking" any news. You're perpetuating a falsehood. Until his injury-plagued 2006 Roethisberger didn't find a way to cost the Steelers many games on his way to helping Pittsburgh grab their fifth Lombardi trophy.

Fast-forward to 2007:

Ben Roethisberger:

63.3% Completion Rate
7.9 YPA (NFL Rank- 7th)
13 TD (NFL Rank- 4th)/5 INT
39.8% First Down per Attempt (NFL Rank- 4th)
19.05% 20+ Yard pass per Completion (NFL Rank- 2nd)
101.1 QB Rating (NFL Rank- 5th)

Average at best? Give me a break. Only Tom Brady has thrown 13 or more TD passes with as few or fewer picks. Nearly 20% of his completions go for 20 or more yards, yet only five tosses have been intercepted. Yeah, he's sure been losing games left and right this year. Could the Steelers' offensive line pass block worth a crap, Pitt wins the Denver game last week. But they couldn't so they didn't. So it goes.

You might not want to believe it, but we're not talking about Kordell Stewart here. We're talking about a guy who has twice before been in the rarified air of top-five rated passers in the game (2004, 2005). While you're apparently surprised to see him there yet again, I'm not exactly sure why.

Patrick Bateman
10-26-2007, 02:28 PM
I hate Benny boy with a passion, but you can't dispute the numbers. He's good and should move the ball down the field at will against the Bengals.

guttle11
10-26-2007, 02:35 PM
The knock on Roethlisberger is that he is a "system" QB, and would struggle in a different system. I tend to believe that, but it's irrelevant. He doesn't play in another system. I'm not sure there's anyone in the NFL that could run that system any better. Their perfect match fell right into their lap.

Now I'm going to go puke.

NJReds
10-26-2007, 02:42 PM
The knock on Roethlisberger is that he is a "system" QB, and would struggle in a different system.

I remember hearing similar things about Joe Montana and Steve Young. QB's need good players around them to succeed. A coach and offensive coordinator worth his paycheck will find a way to maximize his QB's strengths.

traderumor
10-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Steel is Ben's Mighty Mouse.

camisadelgolf
10-26-2007, 04:59 PM
Ben Roethlisberger is the worst Ohioan in history, and I'll stand by that statement to my grave. His numbers look good now, but the more he plays, the more rapidly they'll go down.

Matt700wlw
10-26-2007, 05:09 PM
Ben Roethlisberger is the worst Ohioan in history, and I'll stand by that statement to my grave. His numbers look good now, but the more he plays, the more rapidly they'll go down.

Yes, but he dates Natalie Gulbis and we don't.


Now, I really don't like him!!

SunDeck
10-26-2007, 05:41 PM
I don't know if I could date someone who out drives me.



Then again, that would have severely limited my options.

Redhook
10-26-2007, 06:17 PM
Yes, but he dates Natalie Gulbis and we don't.


He used to date Gulbis 2 years ago. He broke it off sometime late summer 2005. She actually found out he broke up with her watching ESPN. Real classy Ben. I got the inside scoop on all this since I caddied on the LPGA Tour in 2005. Natalie is actually very nice, one of the nicest girls out there.

I have a hard time with Big Ben since I went to Miami U. I used to root for him like crazy. Now, I hope he loses every game. Amazingly, my hatred for the Steelers easily outweighs the ties I have with him at Miami.

As for this game, I just hope the Bengals show and don't panic so it's a reasonably close game. The only chance they have of winning is they have to be +3 or more in the turnover department. Just like last year in Pittsburgh, the Steelers were turning it over right and left. Something similar to that will be needed for the Bengals to pull off the monumental upset.

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 09:48 AM
I don't know if I could date someone as ugly as Natalie Gulbis. Her body is hot but she is freaky looking when you look at her face. And could she wear any more make-up? She might hit a long way as well but her swing is horrible. Worst one on the LPGA tour.

Don't get the "Ben is a system QB" comments. So isn't Carson Palmer. Could Palmer run the wishbone? What about the triple option? What about the run and shoot?

Just what are the systems that Ben would struggle with in the NFL? Give him some decent options to throw the ball to and protect him and he'll succeed.

It goes without saying if he was on a worse team his numbers might not be as good. But trade Cincy's recievers out for the Jaguars and how good is Carson Palmer?

Dom Heffner
10-27-2007, 11:20 AM
But trade Cincy's recievers out for the Jaguars and how good is Carson Palmer?

Or put Big Ben on the Bengals and watch their receiving numbers not be as good.

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 12:21 PM
Well you Bengal fans can be happy today. Your team sucks but your QB is better than the QB on the Steelers.

Congrats.

guttle11
10-27-2007, 12:22 PM
Well you Bengal fans can be happy today. Your team sucks but your QB is better than the QB on the Steelers.

Congrats.

:rolleyes:

GoReds33
10-27-2007, 12:40 PM
Well you Bengal fans can be happy today. Your team sucks but your QB is better than the QB on the Steelers.

Congrats.First off, our team doesn't suck. I would put our offense against any in the NFL. Second our defense is still young. In a couple years, with some luck, this defense could be pretty good. I really hope that they can win some more games, and keep their momentum.:)

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 02:27 PM
Your offense has scored 113 less points than the Patriots this season. That 113 points is more than 7 teams have scored.

The Bengals are haning with the Bills, Jets, 49ers and Vikings in the standings. If it walks like a duck ......

Been hearing the defense will be pretty good eventually argument since Marvin arrived. The Bengals are 10-12 in their last 22 games. What momentum is it that you are speaking of?

GAC
10-27-2007, 04:08 PM
Must be nice to climb that mountain just so you can stand and pee on others. :lol:

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 04:54 PM
What mountain would that be GAC?

Just reacting to the "peeing" on Big Ben.

GoReds33
10-27-2007, 05:00 PM
Your offense has scored 113 less points than the Patriots this season. That 113 points is more than 7 teams have scored.

The Bengals are haning with the Bills, Jets, 49ers and Vikings in the standings. If it walks like a duck ......

Been hearing the defense will be pretty good eventually argument since Marvin arrived. The Bengals are 10-12 in their last 22 games. What momentum is it that you are speaking of?The offense isn't scoring much because the defense can't stop anybody. The defense will give up 80 yard drives that eat up the time on the clock, which makes it nearly impossible for the offense to put up the same numbers as teams with good defenses.

The momentum I speak of was last week. We finally got that win we needed. All the players said that they just needed to win one game. They need to seize that momentum right now. I don't think it would be tough at all for this team to reach .500, or above. Take a look at their remaining schedule. The following are games I view as must win games:

Buffalo
Arizona
Tennessee
St. Louis
San Francisco
Cleveland
Miami

If my math is right, that would make us 9 and 7, which would set us up for the postseason.

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 06:04 PM
There is no denying that the offense is good. Very good in fact. But I can't help the fact that another team out there has scored over 100 more points.

If the defense is THAT bad that they solely responsible for a differential that big then they surely are bad enough to make the team as a whole stink. And I would think if you can point to the D as the reason the offense can't score as much as New England that you would realize it is going to take more than luck to fix it.

Getting back to Big Ben, Palmer has him trumped in one category this year, passing yards and Carson has thrown 60 more passes.

More talent in his pinky toe than Big Ben? What gives that impression? Is it Big Ben's better stats or his Super Bowl ring?

Dom Heffner
10-27-2007, 06:51 PM
Is it Big Ben's better stats or his Super Bowl ring?


Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring. He must be better then Carson Palmer, too.

Degenerate39
10-27-2007, 06:57 PM
Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring. He must be better then Carson Palmer, too.

:laugh:

WMR
10-27-2007, 07:14 PM
Well you Bengal fans can be happy today. Your team sucks but your QB is better than the QB on the Steelers.

Congrats.

http://www.christithomas.com/images/troll.jpg

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 07:33 PM
Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring. He must be better then Carson Palmer, too.

Well if Dilfer had the same number of TDs, less picks, better rating, higher completion % and won more ball games, then yes, he would be having a better season.

Do you Bengal fans really think you'd be jealous of the Steelers if Palmer played over there while Ben was your QB and had won you a Super Bowl while Pitt was struggling along at 2-4? Do you think you would sit quietly when people said Big Ben was a system QB and that Palmer had more talent in his pinky than Big Ben?

I doubt it.

Why don't you go make your sig a little longer Wily Mo Doesn't Play Here Anymore?

Redsfaithful
10-27-2007, 07:55 PM
http://www.christithomas.com/images/troll.jpg

No freaking doubt. Glad to see someone call him on it.

MaineRed
10-27-2007, 08:07 PM
It is amazing the direction threads get taken in when people challenge some of the ridiculous things said on this board.

If you don't roll with the Bengals and Bearcats, don't share your opinion as it isn't welcome.

Redsfaithful
10-27-2007, 08:09 PM
It is amazing the direction threads get taken in when people challenge some of the ridiculous things said on this board.

If you don't roll with the Bengals and Bearcats, don't share your opinion as it isn't welcome.

I don't see anyone calling Steel a troll even though he's the biggest Steelers fan on the board (that I know of), wonder why that might be?

GAC
10-27-2007, 08:30 PM
I don't think, nor am I calling you, a troll Maine - just think you're laying it on kind of thick, and doing more then just "sharing your opinion" (Hey Bengal fans - your team sucks!), for a guy who doesn't even have a dog in this fight (rivalry) being from Maine and a Patriot's fan, and just because a couple of Bengal fans don't care for the Steeler's QB. You do understand that this is a divisional rivalry and that there is no love lost between the fans of these two teams don't you?

So why do you care, or should it bother you, that Bengal and Steeler fans go after each other just prior to their game?

CTA513
10-27-2007, 08:36 PM
Its always going to be Carson vs Ben, but the big difference between the two teams are the defenses.

MWM
10-27-2007, 09:06 PM
Is someone honestly making the argument that Ben Roesthlisberger is a better QB than Carson Palmer? Seriously?

GAC
10-27-2007, 09:27 PM
Is someone honestly making the argument that Ben Roesthlisberger is a better QB than Carson Palmer? Seriously?

Haven't seen anyone on this thread make that contention.

BuckWoody
10-27-2007, 09:45 PM
The Bengals will win tomorrow, I have inside information.

My oldest daughter's soccer team won two games today to make it to the finals of their SAY tournament tomorrow. That game is at 2:45 meaning that we'll miss the football game, one of only a handful that we've missed in the last 15 years or so.

With my mojo at it's usual low, it only follows that tomorrow will be the Bengals' breakthrough home win against the hated steelers. :(

I'm happy for my little girl, though. She is excited. :thumbup:

I'll DVR the game and watch it after the soccer game...in case you were really worried about me. ;)

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

MWM
10-27-2007, 09:47 PM
The Bengals are going to lose by 30+ points. It will be ugly from the kick-off on.

WMR
10-27-2007, 09:51 PM
The Bengals will win tomorrow, I have inside information.

My oldest daughter's soccer team won two games today to make it to the finals of their SAY tournament tomorrow. That game is at 2:45 meaning that we'll miss the football game, one of only a handful that we've missed in the last 15 years or so.

With my mojo at it's usual low, it only follows that tomorrow will be the Bengals' breakthrough home win against the hated steelers. :(

I'm happy for my little girl, though. She is excited. :thumbup:

I'll DVR the game and watch it after the soccer game...in case you were really worried about me. ;)

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

:lol:

Good thing I've got my bookie on speed dial!! ;) :laugh:

What is "SAY"? How old is your daughter and what position does she play?

paintmered
10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
What is "SAY"? How old is your daughter and what position does she play?

Soccer Association for Youth.

WMR
10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
Soccer Association for Youth.

Oh cool, thanks Paint.

GAC
10-27-2007, 10:10 PM
The Bengals will win tomorrow, I have inside information.

My oldest daughter's soccer team won two games today to make it to the finals of their SAY tournament tomorrow. That game is at 2:45 meaning that we'll miss the football game, one of only a handful that we've missed in the last 15 years or so.

With my mojo at it's usual low, it only follows that tomorrow will be the Bengals' breakthrough home win against the hated steelers. :(

I'm happy for my little girl, though. She is excited. :thumbup:

I'll DVR the game and watch it after the soccer game...in case you were really worried about me. ;)

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

Good luck to your daughter BW. Your daugther's soccer game is more important. Been there, done that - and I don't regret it a bit.

GAC
10-27-2007, 10:12 PM
Soccer Association for Youth.

I thought it was the Soccer Association of Yemens. :lol:

WMR
10-27-2007, 10:46 PM
Why don't you go make your sig a little longer Wily Mo Doesn't Play Here Anymore?

:lol: :dancingco:dancingco :lol:

Give me a good quote and I'll add yours!

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 02:03 AM
Is someone honestly making the argument that Ben Roesthlisberger is a better QB than Carson Palmer? Seriously?

Like GAC, I haven't seen that either. I really like Carson Palmer. To me, having Roethlisberger and Palmer in the same division is like getting to see Bradshaw and Staubach go at it at least twice a year. Or maybe Elway and Marino. Sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually looked at Brett Favre's 1993 results. So let's compare Ben's 2006 with Favre's 1993:

Brett Favre 1993:

318 Comp/522 Attempts
60.9 Comp%
6.3 YPA
19 TD/24 INT

Ben Roethlisberger 2006:

280 Comp/469 Attempts
59.7 Comp%
7.5 YPA
18 TD/23 INT

Now, before anyone (not talking to you, MWM) jumps to the wrong conclusion, I am not trying to say that Brett Favre is a Roethlisberger comp for a career or that Ben is an eventual Hall of Famer like Favre. Maybe he's more like Steve McNair minus the rushing yardage and better size and "in-pocket" escape ability. But I tire of the consistent calls that Roethisberger is only a "system" QB or a "game manager" or a guy who only throws short passes almost as much as I tire of spelling his name. If that's all the guy did then he wouldn't have ranked 4th and 1st in the NFL respectively in Adjusted Yards per Pass in 2004 and 2005. He's likely to be called on for that kind of yardage efficiency again because Willie Parker is a "boom-or-bust" RB; as likely to take a 3-yard loss as he is to bust a 10+-yard gain. The Steelers see a LOT of 3rd-and-longs.

Ben and Favre are cut from the same cloth, even if they finish their careers with different results. Both are gamers. Both are risk-takers. Both think they can do something special at any moment and at times, to their detriment, they mess up because of it. And I'm actually enthused this season that, excepting one ill-fated decision in this year's Arizona game, Ben has figured out how to either eat the ball or throw it away.

I would never diss Carson Palmer. Super QB. I've seen him do spectacular things a bunch, mostly because of Pitt/Bengals games and because I've had Chad Palmer on my FFB teams quite a bit in prior years. I would love to have that guy on my team. But I often wonder how often folks actually see Roethlisberger play to where they understand some of the fantastic things he's able to do with the football in his hands; and through ages where, historically, almost every other QB is in an apprenticeship in order to learn their craft.

Yeah, his battered body had a forgettable 2006 campaign. But at this point in the season, his QB rating (101.1) is above 98.0 for the third time in four years while he's on pace to throw significantly more TD passes with a much lower INT rate than last season.

It disappoints me that, to some, the matchup we'll see tomorrow from opposing QB's will be awesome versus "average at best". To me, what we're likely to see is a couple of warriors in Carson and Ben doing what warriors do. That excites me to no end.

Good luck, Bengals fans. You're going to need it, as are we on the Steelers' side of the fence.

camisadelgolf
10-28-2007, 08:31 AM
I don't think MaineRed is being unreasonable. He's a Steelers fan, so naturally, he gets defensive when people say negative things about the ugliest people in the world.

http://frankthetank.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/fifthbenpicture.jpg

I'd post pictures of the Steel Curtain, but it'd probably scare people away from Redszone forever. I'd post pictures of actual Steelers fans, too, but I just ate and don't feel like cleaning out a keyboard. Now back to football . . .

Yeah, the Steelers defense is so dominant. How did they manage to have the league's best defense after facing the dominant forces of the 49ers, Bills, and Cardinals? I'd bet they'll look dominant against the Bengals, too. LOL. Until the game starts, I'm just going to imagine how much better the Bengals' defense would look if they had faced J.P. Losman (76.8), Alex Smith (65.7), and Matt Leinart (71.2) instead of Tom Brady (91.8), Damon Huard (83.6), and Chad Pennington (89.3). After that, I'll imagine what the Bengals' record would be if they had been playing half the season with more than two linebackers. That's the beautiful thing about football. Thanks to injuries, teams like the Steelers have a chance to beat teams like the Bengals. The Bengals are without their best player (Willie Anderson), Rudi Johnson, and all of their starting linebackers, but the Bengals will still find a way to win because they are better than the Steelers.

Were the Steelers better than the Bengals in the past? Until 2005, yes. Are the Steelers better than the Bengals now? Not really--the record says so, but that's deceiving. Will the Steelers ever be better than the Bengals again? Probably not.

The Steelers are going down, and after next week, the Bengals will be back in first place. 12-4. WHO DEY!

BuckWoody
10-28-2007, 11:41 AM
:lol:

Good thing I've got my bookie on speed dial!! ;) :laugh:

What is "SAY"? How old is your daughter and what position does she play?
It's third and fourth graders, my daughter is in the third grade. They don't have any set positions at this level, at least not on this team. She played two quarters on the front line and two back on defense in both games yesterday. She's down at the training table right now throwing back Red Bulls and Snickers.

Oh yeah, Go Bengals!!

Chip R
10-28-2007, 12:54 PM
She's down at the training table right now throwing back Red Bulls and Snickers.



Breakfast of champions. ;)

deltachi8
10-28-2007, 01:15 PM
Good luck Bengals fans, it should be an entertaining game.

Joseph
10-28-2007, 02:33 PM
Good luck Bengals fans, it should be an entertaining game.

You really think that? I don't see it being remotely entertaining, the Bengals are terrible and stand very very little chance.

Yes, I'm a Bengals fan.

MWM
10-28-2007, 02:44 PM
LOL. The Steelers are going to score at least 40 points today. I can't watch the Bengals any more. It's too hard to watch a defense THIS bad. They should be embarassed.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 02:52 PM
LOL. The Steelers are going to score at least 40 points today. I can't watch the Bengals any more. It's too hard to watch a defense THIS bad. They should be embarassed.

Sad, but true. Cannot cover, cannot pressure the QB. Same ol', same ol'. Obviously management is not embarrassed b/c it is the same thing every year. They also like to play with 10 men on the field (1st PITT TD). Inept on the field and on the sideline.

MWM
10-28-2007, 02:56 PM
Yep. I've always been a HUGE fan of Marvin Lewis, but something has changed this year. Any amount of watching this team clearly shows that they are very poorly coached.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 03:01 PM
Go for it. Your defense will not keep you in it, so you have to play for 7 points!!

MWM
10-28-2007, 03:05 PM
Marvin just doesn't get it. The defense hasn't even pretended like they were going to stop their offense. So he decides to kick a field goal from the 2 yard line. Just silly.

Yachtzee
10-28-2007, 03:08 PM
I hate being a Bengals fan. Have some guts and go for it. It's this mincing, fraidy-cat style of play calling, that gets them in trouble. With the great big nothing of a defense they have, the offense has to play every game like they have to score TDs every drive. Field goals will not do it.

dougdirt
10-28-2007, 03:08 PM
No, its not the play calling that gets them in trouble, its the defenses inability to cover a reciever, or tackle a QB for a sack or a RB when they hit them.

MWM
10-28-2007, 03:10 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!!!


The good news is that I made sure I started both Big Ben and Willie Parker today in my fantasy league. I figured I would put up big points.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:16 PM
I hate being a Bengals fan. Have some guts and go for it. It's this mincing, fraidy-cat style of play calling, that gets them in trouble. With the great big nothing of a defense they have, the offense has to play every game like they have to score TDs every drive. Field goals will not do it.

"fraidy-cat" :lol: :laugh:

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:17 PM
No, its not the play calling that gets them in trouble, its the defenses inability to cover a reciever, or tackle a QB for a sack or a RB when they hit them.

Maybe they need to go practice with Ohio State and do some tackling drills???

Yachtzee
10-28-2007, 03:20 PM
No, its not the play calling that gets them in trouble, its the defenses inability to cover a reciever, or tackle a QB for a sack or a RB when they hit them.

That is true. I guess I should have said that the Offense needs to be more aggressive when they can't count on the D to stop anything. Now the Steelers can pretty much sit back and expect pass-pass-pass. They don't need to worry about the run anymore. If I were the Bengals, I wouldn't punt on the opponent's side of the field on fourth and 2 or less. Go for it because you need TDs.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:21 PM
That is true. I guess I should have said that the Offense needs to be more aggressive when they can't count on the D to stop anything. Now the Steelers can pretty much sit back and expect pass-pass-pass. They don't need to worry about the run anymore. If I were the Bengals, I wouldn't punt on the opponent's side of the field on fourth and 2 or less. Go for it because you need TDs.

You've got to go for the gusto in that situation.

It just makes Marvin look weak... like he has no clue what this team is really about. GO FOR IT!

dougdirt
10-28-2007, 03:22 PM
I still cant believe the calls in this game. False start on the Steelers, not called. Dropped pass is reviewed, called a catch when it clearly wasnt. Intentional grounding not called because apparently a reciever was in the first row of the stands for the ball.

I call these Steeler/Patriot rules, becuase the refs and the NFL want these teams to be successful and make sure it happens as much as possible.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:22 PM
I hear booing.

Screwball
10-28-2007, 03:27 PM
I'd like to see the stats on the Bengals inability to stop opposing offenses on 3rd downs. They've got to be one of, if not the, worst in the league. So demoralizing... :bang:

cincy jacket
10-28-2007, 03:30 PM
I still cant believe the calls in this game. False start on the Steelers, not called. Dropped pass is reviewed, called a catch when it clearly wasnt. Intentional grounding not called because apparently a reciever was in the first row of the stands for the ball.

I call these Steeler/Patriot rules, becuase the refs and the NFL want these teams to be successful and make sure it happens as much as possible.

That pass to Holmes where it was reviewed should have never happened anyway, the play clock had already hit 0 but a flag was never thrown.

MWM
10-28-2007, 03:33 PM
I'd like to see the stats on the Bengals inability to stop opposing offenses on 3rd downs. They've got to be one of, if not the, worst in the league. So demoralizing... :bang:


I'd go a step further and say in league history. I'm being completely serious when I say this is one of the worst defenses I have ever seen in the NFL.

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 03:36 PM
I still cant believe the calls in this game. False start on the Steelers, not called. Dropped pass is reviewed, called a catch when it clearly wasnt. Intentional grounding not called because apparently a reciever was in the first row of the stands for the ball.

I call these Steeler/Patriot rules, becuase the refs and the NFL want these teams to be successful and make sure it happens as much as possible.

Yeah. That Polamalu INT that was incorrectly ruled an incompletion was really helpful against Indy in the 2005 playoffs. The NFL wants the Steelers to win every game. That's why the Steelers have received more than a couple official letters of apology from the league over the last few years for officiating errors that resulted in dramatic negative impact to them.

I know you're grumpy about how this game is unfolding (it ain't over by any means though), but get a grip.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:39 PM
Yeah. That Polamalu INT that was incorrectly ruled an incompletion was really helpful against Indy in the 2005 playoffs. The NFL wants the Steelers to win every game. That's why the Steelers have received more than a couple official letters of apology from the league over the last few years for officiating errors that resulted in dramatic negative impact to them.

I know you're grumpy about how this game is unfolding (it ain't over by any means though), but get a grip.

:lol: C'mon steel, we're Bengals fans, we're allowed to be grumpy. :laugh:

I'm really getting to the point where the Bengals losing doesn't get me too upset any more... they're just too sorry.

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 03:42 PM
:lol: C'mon steel, we're Bengals fans, we're allowed to be grumpy. :laugh:

I'm really getting to the point where the Bengals losing doesn't get me too upset any more... they're just too sorry.

I know, bud. But this game isn't over. The Steelers have been having some problems getting pressure on the QB and Palmer is a fine QB with a solid receiving corps. Last week, Pitt was down 21-7 at halftime and still came back to tie Denver before losing a heartbreaker. The Bengals were down 20-10 prior to dramatically outscoring the Jets in the 2nd half.

Color me still very nervous.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:44 PM
I know, bud. But this game isn't over. The Steelers have been having some problems getting pressure on the QB and Palmer is a fine QB with a solid receiving corps. Last week, Pitt was down 21-7 at halftime and still came back to tie Denver before losing a heartbreaker. The Bengals were down 20-10 prior to dramatically outscoring the Jets in the 2nd half.

Color me still very nervous.

:lol:

As Roethlisburger runs for a first down on 3rd down. Maddening.

dougdirt
10-28-2007, 03:46 PM
Yeah. That Polamalu INT that was incorrectly ruled an incompletion was really helpful against Indy in the 2005 playoffs. The NFL wants the Steelers to win every game. That's why the Steelers have received more than a couple official letters of apology from the league over the last few years for officiating errors that resulted in dramatic negative impact to them.

I know you're grumpy about how this game is unfolding (it ain't over by any means though), but get a grip.

And by the same token Matt Hasselbeck was flagged for blocking below the waist while making a tackle two weeks later in the super bowl. And yes, I do think the NFL wants the Steelers to win every week. They are one of the most popular teams in the league, and its very good if they are successful.

Yachtzee
10-28-2007, 03:46 PM
This game is so thrilling, I've got to go to the grocery store and do my weekly shopping to contain myself. :rolleyes:

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 03:46 PM
:lol:

As Roethlisburger runs for a first down on 3rd down. Maddening.

Yeah, those 3rd down conversions are frustrating. I know. Denver converted a bunch on 3rd-and-long against Pitt last week.

But look on the bright side. Instead, we could be watching the field goal-fest between Tenn and Oakland. Root canal football that is.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:48 PM
Yeah, those 3rd down conversions are frustrating. I know. Denver converted a bunch on 3rd-and-long against Pitt last week.

But look on the bright side. Instead, we could be watching the field goal-fest between Tenn and Oakland. Root canal football that is.

Field-goals are our preferred method of scoring points. Because, you know, our defense is so tough.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:48 PM
One word for what the Steelers offense is doing to our defense: Emasculation.

KronoRed
10-28-2007, 03:49 PM
I want to see these teams do this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3083220&categoryId=2564308

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 03:50 PM
Amazing what happens when you pressure a QB!

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:53 PM
I want to see these teams do this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3083220&categoryId=2564308

That's awesome!

Maybe that's the "secret weapon play" Marvin has steadfastly refused to discuss.

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 03:53 PM
And by the same token Matt Hasselbeck was flagged for blocking below the waist while making a tackle two weeks later in the super bowl. And yes, I do think the NFL wants the Steelers to win every week. They are one of the most popular teams in the league, and its very good if they are successful.

Over the years, we've see a ref screw up an overtime coin toss on Thanksgiving in Detroit. We've seen a Tennessee kicker obviously flop after missing a field goal in order to draw a flag to get a second try. I've seen time run out when a ref should have stopped after a sack at the end of a game to deny Pitt a chance for a winning field goal. And I've seen an INT that wasn't to allow Indianapolis back into a game when they were getting hammered.

If the zebras have been Pittsburgh's friends over the years, they sure don't need any enemies.

WMR
10-28-2007, 03:54 PM
Man Kenny Watson has sure made the most of his opportunity.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 04:06 PM
Does CBS have cameras on just one side of the field? On the latest review of Chad's catch and on Santonio's catch earlier, we never got to see the catch form the other side. Hopefully the referee gets to see both angles. If not, then the review process has a major flaw.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:10 PM
TJ Houshyodaddy!!

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:11 PM
TJ likes playing the Steelers.

dougdirt
10-28-2007, 04:18 PM
How do you miss that holding call on the guy holding the jersey of Justin Smith? Oh, because the Steelers did it. Got it. Glad I figured that out.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 04:26 PM
Nice job by the Bengals glorious D of stepping up and holding them to a FG and letting them eat 5:00 off the clock. :thumbdown

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:28 PM
Nice job by the Bengals glorious D of stepping up and holding them to a FG and letting them eat 5:00 off the clock. :thumbdown

Make it 6:47! Dang.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 04:29 PM
Make it 6:47! Dang.

UGH! :D

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:31 PM
UGH! :D

How large do those 4 "lost points" loom now?

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:33 PM
We should not be running the ball!! NEED TWO SCORES WITH 4 MINUTES LEFT!!

C'mon Bratkowski!

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 04:33 PM
How large do those 4 "lost points" loom now?

Yep. Marvin has confidence in that defense. He also likes to run the ball when down 11 points and less than 4:00 left. Good gains on the run, but the clock is a bigger enemy at this point.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:34 PM
Crap. @#$%

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 04:35 PM
Watson fumble... game over. Although he looked down to me on the one replay before the all important CBS commercial.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:35 PM
Watson fumble... game over. Although he looked down to me on the one replay before the all important CBS commercial.

Marvin will challenge the spot of the ball on the recovered fumble. :lol:

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Dang. Ball-game.

CrackerJack
10-28-2007, 04:39 PM
Why are they running the ball there?

The Bengals have once again become predictably bad and boring.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Why are they running the ball there?

The Bengals have once again become predictably bad and boring.

C'mon Glenn Dorsey... can I get a Glenn Dorsey please?

We're working on our draft position.

Joseph
10-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Terrible football team in all facets of the game.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:42 PM
Marvin's press conference: "Everyone needs to do their job...blah blah blah... kicking the field goal was the right decision blah blah blah... can't answer that, you wouldn't understand blah blah blah"

GoReds33
10-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Worst called, and worst officiated game ever.

TC81190
10-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Worst called, and worst officiated game ever.

Agreed, but the Bengals definitely didn't put themselves in a position to win either.

There's going to be something missing this holiday season for me. The past couple of years, a contending Bengals team has been a great Christmas present for me, but eh, what can you do about it?

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:50 PM
Arghhhhh, I hate losing to the bleeping Steelers.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:50 PM
How many consecutive losses is that to Pittsburgh at PBS? :eek:

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 04:53 PM
Well, overall, that was an entertaining game. I expected more of an offensive barrage in the 2nd half from the Bengals. I was also quite surprised that instead of putting the game in Palmer's hands, the Bengals decided to hand it off to Watson.

Thanks for the chat and good luck next week.

GoReds33
10-28-2007, 04:55 PM
That game was atleast better than it was supposed to be. I though we would have a shot, but they gave it away at the end. My vote goes for Kenny Watson to be the full time starter. He's got fresher legs, and good speed.

TC81190
10-28-2007, 04:57 PM
That game was atleast better than it was supposed to be. I though we would have a shot, but they gave it away at the end. My vote goes for Kenny Watson to be the full time starter. He's got fresher legs, and good speed.

Yeah, and maybe, just maybe, Rudi can be dealt for some defensive depth this offseason. I would try shipping him to the Pack.

WMR
10-28-2007, 04:57 PM
Well, overall, that was an entertaining game. I expected more of an offensive barrage in the 2nd half from the Bengals. I was also quite surprised that instead of putting the game in Palmer's hands, the Bengals decided to hand it off to Watson.

Thanks for the chat and good luck next week.

You're a class act, Steel. Deltachi too. (How weird that the only two classy Pittsburgh fans in the entire world post on this board?? ;))

You guys are good. 3rd best team in the AFC, IMO.

Screwball
10-28-2007, 04:59 PM
Well, overall, that was a maddeningly frustrating game.

There. Fixed it for ya.;)

WMR
10-28-2007, 05:01 PM
Yeah, and maybe, just maybe, Rudi can be dealt for some defensive depth this offseason. I would try shipping him to the Pack.

RB's just bring so little in trade... what could Rudi bring back? A 3rd rounder?

TC81190
10-28-2007, 05:03 PM
RB's just bring so little in trade... what could Rudi bring back? A 3rd rounder?

I'd try to see if they wouldn't trade some of their in-house defensive depth. Their ground attack is really killing them now, and it's wearing on Favre.

Bip Roberts
10-28-2007, 05:04 PM
http://i23.tinypic.com/id6amw.jpg

traderumor
10-28-2007, 05:15 PM
Yep. I've always been a HUGE fan of Marvin Lewis, but something has changed this year. Any amount of watching this team clearly shows that they are very poorly coached.Talent, or lack of, is the problem. Do you think Leon Hall is being taught (or failed to address such things) to bite on a pump fake, to get turned around twice in the space of a few plays?

I think the biggest admittance is probably that Marvin's strength is not talent evaluation. Let him get back to coaching alone and you probably start to see some changes. I'm in the boat with those who say the Bengals need a GM type position. Let Marvin coach and be involved less with being a jack of all trades and master of none.

Redsfaithful
10-28-2007, 05:35 PM
Talent, or lack of, is the problem. Do you think Leon Hall is being taught (or failed to address such things) to bite on a pump fake, to get turned around twice in the space of a few plays?

It doesn't even matter that Hall got destroyed on that play. The Bengals were playing 10 on 11 when the Steelers scored that touchdown. It's ridiculous.

I'm not on the fire Marvin Lewis bandwagon, probably won't ever be honestly because I am stupidly loyal sometimes, but the coaching staff should really be embarrassed.

dsmith421
10-28-2007, 06:26 PM
Leon Hall...hilarious.

It's not even a question at this stage whether he has first-round ability. I'm starting to question whether he even knows how to play the game of football.

dsmith421
10-28-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm really getting to the point where the Bengals losing doesn't get me too upset any more... they're just too sorry.

This is a quote from Joe Posnanski's (KC Star, ex-Cincy Post) blog:


I had this discussion with an NFL insider recently:

Him: The great thing about the NFL is that, because thereís so much money, and the salary cap is in place, if you want to win, you will win sooner or later. Itís not like other leagues. Baseball, the NBA, you need a lot of commitment, but you also need luck. The NFL is all about motivation. The only teams that will keep losing are the teams that are not trying.
Me: Interesting.
Him: So, that means you can cross off Cincinnati.

guttle11
10-28-2007, 07:41 PM
Redzone play was the difference. Steelers got TDs in the first half, and the Bengals got FGs. Not going to come back from a double digit deficit against Pittsburgh.

I especially liked the review of the Holmes catch. It's in his left arm, hits the ground, he rolls around and it's in his right arm. How can you say the ground didn't effect the ball? Ugh. But alas, the defense still gave up a TD instead of a FG.

Leon Hall was left on an island in the first half. He's a rookie, he can't handle that. He should only be a nickel guy. Joseph and O'Neal should be on the field every down.

GAC
10-28-2007, 10:04 PM
Well, overall, that was an entertaining game. I expected more of an offensive barrage in the 2nd half from the Bengals. I was also quite surprised that instead of putting the game in Palmer's hands, the Bengals decided to hand it off to Watson.

Yeah, that really surprised the heck out of me. Terrible clock management by the Bengals IMO.

And someone help me out, but prior to their last TD I thought the announcer stated that the Bengals had been down in the redzone 6 times, and yet only came away with one TD and a FG. Is that correct?

Roethlisberger is not a pretty QB to watch. He was 19-of-26 for 230 yards with one costly mistake where he tried to force the ball (which is typical sometimes of Ben), but a QB Rating of 109.5. But what is also typical of Ben is that he doesn't get flustered when there is a pass rush. He uses his legs - though he reminds me, at times, of Kosar when trying to scramble - yet does show poise looking down field, and is able to put the ball in spots where ONLY his receivers can catch them.

RedFanAlways1966
10-28-2007, 10:13 PM
GAC, from memory I think the only time the Bengals did not score when in the red zone was at the end when Watson fumbled. It was their only turnover, Graham did not miss a FG and the Bengals did not miss on a 4th down.

Regarding Ben's rating... all QB's have a great rating when playing the Bengals defense. Surely you remember (you Dawg) Derrick Anderson's 1st NFL win as a starter. :)

SteelSD
10-28-2007, 11:55 PM
Yeah, that really surprised the heck out of me. Terrible clock management by the Bengals IMO.

The long Bengals' 3rd quarter drive that resulted in a 4th quarter TD really hurt Cinci's chances because it took about 8 minutes off the clock. I don't know what Lewis and co. were thinking with the conservative play calling on that drive. Grabbing a TD there is fine because it produces a one-TD gap (with a 2-point conversion). That's great if you have a defense that can produce consistent stops, but that's certainly not the Cinci D. The other killer was the quick TD Cinci allowed Pitt to score at the end of the first half.


And someone help me out, but prior to their last TD I thought the announcer stated that the Bengals had been down in the redzone 6 times, and yet only came away with one TD and a FG. Is that correct?

Nah. The announcer was wrong. The "red zone" reaches by Cinci produced one TD, two Field Goals, and a fumble.


Roethlisberger is not a pretty QB to watch. He was 19-of-26 for 230 yards with one costly mistake where he tried to force the ball (which is typical sometimes of Ben), but a QB Rating of 109.5. But what is also typical of Ben is that he doesn't get flustered when there is a pass rush. He uses his legs - though he reminds me, at times, of Kosar when trying to scramble - yet does show poise looking down field, and is able to put the ball in spots where ONLY his receivers can catch them.

And considering Pittsburgh's issues on the offensive line at Tackle, there's almost always a pass rush. As I said prior to the game in this thread, Roethisberger is one of those guys who thinks he can work miracles. That leads to some plays like the bad INT he threw deep in the Cinci end. But even with that and the costly opponent end zone INT in the Arizona game, he's done a much better job this season of knowing when to hold and when to fold. On the flip side, he's produced some solid plays with defensive players on his back or at his ankles even when he's not able to avoid the rush. Gotta' take the bad with the good.

And as I also stated earlier, I'm tired of folks who act as is Roethisberger acts as a dink-and-dunk "game manager". Of his 19 completions today, over half were for 10 yards or more. Over 20% of those completions were for 19 or more yards. I don't think, given equal circumstances, that Ben is better than Carson. But today he was.

And congrats to your Browns for sending St. Louis to their well-deserved 8th loss. Derek Anderson has done a fine job and Braylon Edwards has developed into a super weapon as a wideout and Kellen Winslow is taking things to the next level.

Playadlc
10-29-2007, 03:20 AM
This is what pisses me off about Marvin Lewis:

"In hindsight, we should have gone for it rather than take the points," Lewis said. "I didn't anticipate them driving down the field and getting a touchdown before halftime"

I mean, seriously, are you joking here?

Also, Marvin lost all of his challenges again today. Can someone tell me the last time Marvin won a challenge?

WMR
10-29-2007, 04:24 AM
This is what pisses me off about Marvin Lewis:

"In hindsight, we should have gone for it rather than take the points," Lewis said. "I didn't anticipate them driving down the field and getting a touchdown before halftime"

I mean, seriously, are you joking here?

Also, Marvin lost all of his challenges again today. Can someone tell me the last time Marvin won a challenge?

:bang:

:rant:

:bang:

:rant:

BuckWoody
10-29-2007, 10:17 AM
Is there a more frustrating team in the NFL to root for than the Bengals? In all of sports for that matter... They are undisciplined, poorly coached, unlucky, unable to overcome adversity, and show little strength of will or character. Did I get it all? They are the absolute antithesis of the steelers on all those counts.....man, I hate those guys. ;)

At least I didn't have to sit through this one in person.

traderumor
10-29-2007, 02:22 PM
Is there a more frustrating team in the NFL to root for than the Bengals? In all of sports for that matter... They are undisciplined, poorly coached, unlucky, unable to overcome adversity, and show little strength of will or character. Did I get it all? They are the absolute antithesis of the steelers on all those counts.....man, I hate those guys. ;)

At least I didn't have to sit through this one in person.
You forgot headhunting dbacks that don't get called for forearm shivers to the head made right in front of the ref in that analysis. We don't have any of those, Pittsburgh does, at least two of 'em ;)

OldRightHander
10-29-2007, 04:16 PM
You forgot headhunting dbacks that don't get called for forearm shivers to the head made right in front of the ref in that analysis. We don't have any of those, Pittsburgh does, at least two of 'em ;)

There were quite a few things not called in that game. Not that the Bengals played well enough to win, but it would be nice to only have to beat the other team.

Anyway, maybe my memory is hazy here and maybe it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, but I could swear the play clock had hit zero before the snap on that long pass play early in the game, the one where the replay showed it might not have been a catch and Marvin lost the challenge. Then you have intentional grounding not being called when Ben heaved the ball into the stands. Receiver in the vicinity my foot. He was clearly throwing that away to avoid the sack. I know the Bengals put up a lackluster performance and all, but they weren't the only ones on the field who were performing poorly.

BuckWoody
10-29-2007, 04:49 PM
There were quite a few things not called in that game. Not that the Bengals played well enough to win, but it would be nice to only have to beat the other team.

Anyway, maybe my memory is hazy here and maybe it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, but I could swear the play clock had hit zero before the snap on that long pass play early in the game, the one where the replay showed it might not have been a catch and Marvin lost the challenge. Then you have intentional grounding not being called when Ben heaved the ball into the stands. Receiver in the vicinity my foot. He was clearly throwing that away to avoid the sack. I know the Bengals put up a lackluster performance and all, but they weren't the only ones on the field who were performing poorly.
You're right. The play clock expired a tick before the completed pass that bounced off the turf. The no call on the intentional grounding was pretty questionable as was the late no-call when Justin Smith got held so he wouldn't sack Ben. TJ took a nice shot to the head after an overthrown ball sailed over everybody. The officials didn't have a very good day but even so, if they had called all those plays the Bengals way I'm confident the boys would have buckled down and found another way to lose. Bad officiating didn't cost them the game, but it was a nice little cherry on top of our poop sundae.

WMR
10-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Bad officiating didn't cost them the game, but it was a nice little cherry on top of our poop sundae.

That's poetic. :lol:

sonny
10-29-2007, 08:30 PM
This is the first time I have actually thought that it is time for Marvin to go. That 4th and 1 was the summarization of his entire coaching tenure. He fell a little short on 3rd down, got his 1st string O out on the field, called timeout, didn't trust his players, marched the FG unit out there and (perhaps worst of all) had MORE faith in his defense to prevent a score.

His message was clear, play to not lose. Take gambles with players with character issues but don't take the right risks on the field. It's like he's sending a message to the troubled youth on his team. Marvin, this is football, not a life skills class.

Yachtzee
10-29-2007, 09:19 PM
Sounds like Marvin is definitely losing the team.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/oh/story/sports/pro/bengals/2007/10/29/ddn102907arch.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=25

WMR
10-29-2007, 09:30 PM
Sounds like Marvin is definitely losing the team.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/oh/story/sports/pro/bengals/2007/10/29/ddn102907arch.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=25

Marvin's decision was bone-headed.

Is there a locker-room in the NFL that could be "easier to lose" than the one in Cincinnati?

GAC
10-29-2007, 10:34 PM
And as I also stated earlier, I'm tired of folks who act as is Roethisberger acts as a dink-and-dunk "game manager". Of his 19 completions today, over half were for 10 yards or more. Over 20% of those completions were for 19 or more yards. I don't think, given equal circumstances, that Ben is better than Carson. But today he was.

Here is Ben's career numbers vs the Bengals and Browns....


CMP% YPA YDS TD RAT
vs Bengals 66.7 7.9 377.2 2.5 91.7
vs Browns 60.7 8.9 312.2 2.2 99.7

And those overall numbers were really dragged down by his injury-riddled '06 season too. When he was healthy, his QB rating would be over 100.

The guy is doing something right.


And congrats to your Browns for sending St. Louis to their well-deserved 8th loss. Derek Anderson has done a fine job and Braylon Edwards has developed into a super weapon as a wideout and Kellen Winslow is taking things to the next level.

We're improving, but still have a long ways to go. They have not "arrived".....

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=7607

I have said for the last couple of years that the Browns have talent up there; but as long as your offensive line stinks, then that talent is rendered void. The "heart" of your team flows through that offensive line. You put Manning or Brady behind previous Brown's offensive lines and they'd look pretty mediocre IMO, regardless of their talent. That has been the BIGGEST problem with this Browns team.

And they have fixed that this year. Rookie Thomas and Steinbach, as well as others, have given Anderson the protection he needs, time for receivers to run their routes and plays to form and not having to consistently break routes and try and come back and "save" the QB. The running has improved; but Lewis is not the answer. It could be better IMO.

People gave Anderson a hard time - and I'm not saying the guy is a Namath - but if one looks at his numbers while playing in the PAC-10, he was impressive. Last year was his rookie year. He got a total of three starts.... vs Pittsburgh, Ravens, and Tampa. Three teams known for their defense, and yet he performed admirably with the exception of the last game vs T.B. where he stunk it up pretty good. But again - he was a rookie with very little experience, and it showed with some bad decisions and interceptions. I don't know what people were expecting? But they have put an offensive line in front of him, as well as a good receiveing corp in Edwards, Winslow, and Jurevicius, and he's performing well. His INT's are way down as he is not being rushed and is able to make better decisions with the ball.

And Anderson is not the future; but I am glad he is making the best of it. I didn't want to see Quinn thrown in there in any way; but to sit back this year and watch and learn.

But from the defensive end - the Browns suck. Bengal fans complain about their defense (and rightly so)? Ours is ranked worse. Here we have two head coaches in Lewis and Crennel who have very similar defensive backgrounds/resumes, and yet they can't rectify their respective team's defensive woes? It makes me wonder that maybe these guys didn't have as much of an impact on those former team's defenses as one might think. I don't know.

I'd love to have a Justin Smith on my team. That kid is all over the place.

Cedric
10-30-2007, 12:05 AM
They didn't evaluate the talent on those teams. They had amazing evaluators in Newsome and Belichick doing the evaluating.

I could write another rant about Marvin right now. Just not worth it. These quote alone speaks enough for me.

" "It's tough enough when you have 11 guys, but when you have 10 guys, that makes it even harder," said free safety Madieu Williams. "They were catching us in substitutions like that the whole game. It's pretty much a chess match."
And Marvin/Chuck are utterly clueless.


"But Lewis said since the 11th guy was a defensive lineman, it had no affect on the play."

That quote from Bengals.com might be the single dumbest quote I've ever read about sports. I mean that and I'm not being dramatic. Think about that theory from an NFL head coach. It's mind boggling how bad this man manages his team.

guttle11
10-30-2007, 12:16 AM
On Sunday evening Marvin would have gone for the TD, but on Monday he stood by the FG decision.

I'd pay top dollar to see him ordering dinner at a restaurant. It might take an hour.

Reds Fanatic
10-30-2007, 01:05 AM
They didn't evaluate the talent on those teams. They had amazing evaluators in Newsome and Belichick doing the evaluating.

I could write another rant about Marvin right now. Just not worth it. These quote alone speaks enough for me.

" "It's tough enough when you have 11 guys, but when you have 10 guys, that makes it even harder," said free safety Madieu Williams. "They were catching us in substitutions like that the whole game. It's pretty much a chess match."
And Marvin/Chuck are utterly clueless.


"But Lewis said since the 11th guy was a defensive lineman, it had no affect on the play."

That quote from Bengals.com might be the single dumbest quote I've ever read about sports. I mean that and I'm not being dramatic. Think about that theory from an NFL head coach. It's mind boggling how bad this man manages his team.

That quote is amazing. A defensive lineman has no affect on the play. I wonder if Marvin has ever thought of a pass rush. I know our lineman stink but other teams do use their lineman to put pressure on the quaterback occasionally. Who knows it may even have an affect on a play every now and then.

The truly sad thing is knowing how the Bengals ownership operates no matter what happens this year I expect no changes in the staff. It will take a good 5 years of doing nothing before someone wakes up and realizes we have to start over again.

camisadelgolf
10-30-2007, 05:40 AM
Sounds like Marvin is definitely losing the team.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/oh/story/sports/pro/bengals/2007/10/29/ddn102907arch.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=25

I skimmed the article, so maybe I missed something, but it looked like Houshmandzadeh was who they quoted when they said it looked like Marvin Lewis was losing the team. If you saw T.J. Houshmandzadeh's quote on bengals.com, you know that he is not one of the people Lewis supposedly lost. In 2002, if the Bengals were 2-5, I would've been pleasantly surprised.

Yachtzee
10-30-2007, 09:52 AM
I skimmed the article, so maybe I missed something, but it looked like Houshmandzadeh was who they quoted when they said it looked like Marvin Lewis was losing the team. If you saw T.J. Houshmandzadeh's quote on bengals.com, you know that he is not one of the people Lewis supposedly lost. In 2002, if the Bengals were 2-5, I would've been pleasantly surprised.

Carson had a quote in there that could be construed as a veiled indictment of Marvin Lewis, and veiled is probably the only way you'll get a quote from Carson that questions Marvin. Indictment of the offense or indictment of play calling, it could have been taken either way. While it wasn't a quote, the reporter conveyed the reaction of other linemen when Levi Jones said it was the right decision. Everything I've heard from Marvin the past two days seems more like CYA for a poorly coached game. Not going for it, not having enough guys on the field and poor challenges are all coaches' decisions. Couple that with some of the quotes that no longer seem to unequivocally support Lewis and you have to wonder whether players have lost confidence in the coaching staff.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-30-2007, 10:21 AM
Seriously. It's like a broken record.

The guy is in over his head and it's time to move on.

With that said, I'm sure he'll be around for another three years. Then they'll start putting it all together that he's clueless. Maybe running in place on treadmills is a Cincinnati thing, I don't know.

The local media really needs to call out Mr. Condescending for his weekly brain cramps and put pressure on ownership to make a move. And I'm sure that will beg the question, "Well, if they fire Marvin, who do you think they can replace him with". Frankly, I don't care. I'll take my chances that they stumble onto someone that's not as clueless.

Never has a blind squirrel gotten so much run for one found nut (2005).

flyer85
10-30-2007, 02:26 PM
personnel decisions have been puzzling, especially along the O-Line where they re-upped an aging Anderson and a not all that good Jones and let the best guy(Steinbach) walk away.

WMR
10-30-2007, 02:32 PM
personnel decisions have been puzzling, especially along the O-Line where they re-upped an aging Anderson and a not all that good Jones and let the best guy(Steinbach) walk away.

Marvin evaluates talent like he utilizes his challenges. :laugh:

GAC
10-31-2007, 10:34 PM
Is there a more frustrating team in the NFL to root for than the Bengals? In all of sports for that matter... They are undisciplined, poorly coached, unlucky, unable to overcome adversity, and show little strength of will or character. Did I get it all? They are the absolute antithesis of the steelers on all those counts.....man, I hate those guys. ;)

At least I didn't have to sit through this one in person.

You hit on a key word (above). This has been suggested before, but when the Bengals were winning (or on the rise) it wasn't considered much of a problem. Then you start seeing problems with players, starting with Thurman, Henry, and then a few others, and they've headed down that slippery slope IMO.

A coach has to HAVE control.

traderumor
11-01-2007, 07:31 PM
I really try to be impressed by the folks piling on Marvin in a tough season...critics crawl out of the woodwork in a losing season.

The FG at the end of the first half was not such a cut and dried decision, and honestly, being a veteran around here, he would be just as big an idiot if he goes for it there and doesn't get anything. And the D letting them go back down the field...explain how going for it exactly would have changed that--momentum?

WMR
11-01-2007, 07:35 PM
I really try to be impressed by the folks piling on Marvin in a tough season...critics crawl out of the woodwork in a losing season.

The FG at the end of the first half was not such a cut and dried decision, and honestly, being a veteran around here, he would be just as big an idiot if he goes for it there and doesn't get anything. And the D letting them go back down the field...explain how going for it exactly would have changed that--momentum?

That decision demoralized the entire team, stadium, and fanbase.

Honestly, I would not have criticized Marvin had they gone for it there, ran a HB dive, and somehow were turned back. I would respect Marvin for his guts and his belief in his supposedly vaunted offense. I think his team and the majority of fans would feel likewise.

WMR
11-01-2007, 07:37 PM
Folks have been "piling on Marvin" since he wasted that time-out trying to ice the Pittsburgh kicker on a 30 yard chip-shot.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-01-2007, 07:43 PM
I really try to be impressed by the folks piling on Marvin in a tough season...critics crawl out of the woodwork in a losing season.

The FG at the end of the first half was not such a cut and dried decision, and honestly, being a veteran around here, he would be just as big an idiot if he goes for it there and doesn't get anything. And the D letting them go back down the field...explain how going for it exactly would have changed that--momentum?

I criticized Marvin before the season as well.

remdog
11-01-2007, 08:46 PM
The FG at the end of the first half was not such a cut and dried decision, and honestly, being a veteran around here, he would be just as big an idiot if he goes for it there and doesn't get anything. And the D letting them go back down the field...explain how going for it exactly would have changed that--momentum?

First of all, it wasn't an all or nothing situation----the Bengals may not have gotten the touchdown but still may have made the first down, thereby giving them four more shots at it and eating up the clock.

Secondly, even if the Bengals had been stopped the Stealers would have had the ball at the two. In that situation, having to drive 98 yards and in the shadow of their own goal posts, many, if not most teams take a conservative approach initially and that would likely eat up far more time than making the field goal and then kicking off to Pittsburgh. As it was, the field goal didn't eat any time and the ensuing kick-off gave up a third of the field in about 10 seconds.

All in all, not a good trade off in that situation, IMO.

Rem

WMR
11-01-2007, 08:50 PM
First of all, it wasn't an all or nothing situation----the Bengals may not have gotten the touchdown but still may have made the first down, thereby giving them four more shots at it and eating up the clock.

Secondly, even if the Bengals had been stopped the Stealers would have had the ball at the two. In that situation, having to drive 98 yards and in the shadow of their own goal posts, many, if not most teams take a conservative approach initially and that would likely eat up far more time than making the field goal and then kicking off to Pittsburgh. As it was, the field goal didn't eat any time and the ensuing kick-off gave up a third of the field in about 10 seconds.

All in all, not a good trade off in that situation, IMO.

Rem

Speaking of which, what is the opponent's average starting position when the Bengals kick the ball off to them? It feels like it's about the 39 or so.

remdog
11-01-2007, 09:07 PM
According to an article in Wednesday's Enquirer "Opponents' average field position starts at about the 31-yard line."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20071031/SPT02/710310315/

Rem

GAC
11-01-2007, 09:09 PM
Sometimes it seems the Bengals go into a prevent offense.

I really think the loss of Henry really hurt this offense far worse then some may want to realize. And I think one could go further and say the same for Thurman and Pollack on the defensive side.

RedFanAlways1966
11-01-2007, 09:10 PM
According to an article in Wednesday's Enquirer "Opponents' average field position starts at about the 31-yard line."

We must remember this includes all the times Kyle Larson punts from around midfield and we all groan as another punt flies into the endzone for a touchback at the 20. Coffin corner? Not!

Drives me crazy. :runaway:

Screwball
11-01-2007, 09:13 PM
Speaking of which, what is the opponent's average starting position when the Bengals kick the ball off to them? It feels like it's about the 39 or so.

I think it's more like the 30 or 31. But yeah, they basically employ the swiss cheese coverage strategy on kickoffs. Punts too for that matter.

remdog
11-01-2007, 09:25 PM
We must remember this includes all the times Kyle Larson punts from around midfield and we all groan as another punt flies into the endzone for a touchback at the 20. Coffin corner? Not!

Drives me crazy. :runaway:

The quote from the Enquirer was from a section of the article where they were discussing kickoffs. Punting was seperate so I tend to think that the 31 yardline figure is solely related to kickoffs.

Rem

RedFanAlways1966
11-01-2007, 09:38 PM
The quote from the Enquirer was from a section of the article where they were discussing kickoffs. Punting was seperate so I tend to think that the 31 yardline figure is solely related to kickoffs.

Rem

Okay, I stand corrected! I, like the others, am surprised by that. As sad as it sounds... I am usually happy if the kickoff return is stopped before the 40 yard line. :)

remdog
11-01-2007, 10:09 PM
Well, it's not all good ;)----the same article points out that the Bengals kickoff return teams' average starting point is the 26.5 yardline so the Bengals are losing about 5 yards for every kickoff exchange, on average. :(

Rem

traderumor
11-02-2007, 11:04 AM
That decision demoralized the entire team, stadium, and fanbase.

Honestly, I would not have criticized Marvin had they gone for it there, ran a HB dive, and somehow were turned back. I would respect Marvin for his guts and his belief in his supposedly vaunted offense. I think his team and the majority of fans would feel likewise.Uh-huh, why would you say anything different? 35+ years of experience with fandom and 5 years of experience with this board tell me otherwise. Monday Morning QBing has been around as long as there have been fans of football, and its fun and all, but some folks seem to take their decision making ability way too seriously. Now, with message boards like this, we have every day personnel experts too, who can put together sports franchises better than the best of the best, not to mention, "I've said they suck since day 1." It is always easy to be a critic from the sideline, much less to do others' jobs better if given the opportunity. Which is the rub isn't it, most can sit and say "I could do better" knowing they will most likely never have to prove it.

Ok, rant over, all can resume telling us how it should be done.

Cedric
11-02-2007, 12:41 PM
Uh-huh, why would you say anything different? 35+ years of experience with fandom and 5 years of experience with this board tell me otherwise. Monday Morning QBing has been around as long as there have been fans of football, and its fun and all, but some folks seem to take their decision making ability way too seriously. Now, with message boards like this, we have every day personnel experts too, who can put together sports franchises better than the best of the best, not to mention, "I've said they suck since day 1." It is always easy to be a critic from the sideline, much less to do others' jobs better if given the opportunity. Which is the rub isn't it, most can sit and say "I could do better" knowing they will most likely never have to prove it.

Ok, rant over, all can resume telling us how it should be done.

That's not the rub. Why have a sports website if you can't debate certain decisions about an organization? Was I supposed to support Bruce Coslet or Dave Shula simply because they coached in the NFL?

Some people on here coach at the high school level and probably could coach at higher levels if they had luck or family ties. I've followed the sport since basically my birth. I think I have a right to debate Marvin and his consistent mismanagement of the draft and decisions with the clock. And I debate issues as they approach, not after. I don't know how you could judge when I or others debate Marvin and his decisions. Usually his are so obviously wrong that I'm yelling from the stands before the next play is even ran. Nobody here is saying they would be a perfect coach.

I never said I'm right or forced my opinion on others. I throw it out there and see what others think. And honestly I could do a better job with clock management than Marvin could. Dave Shula wasn't as bad as him on that.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Uh-huh, why would you say anything different? 35+ years of experience with fandom and 5 years of experience with this board tell me otherwise. Monday Morning QBing has been around as long as there have been fans of football, and its fun and all, but some folks seem to take their decision making ability way too seriously. Now, with message boards like this, we have every day personnel experts too, who can put together sports franchises better than the best of the best, not to mention, "I've said they suck since day 1." It is always easy to be a critic from the sideline, much less to do others' jobs better if given the opportunity. Which is the rub isn't it, most can sit and say "I could do better" knowing they will most likely never have to prove it.

Ok, rant over, all can resume telling us how it should be done.



And you continue telling us how it should be done on a message board.

I don't see anything wrong with what WillyMo said and I would be shocked if 90% of the entire Bungle fanbase felt the same way. It was a gutless call. And I don't need to be an NFL coach to feel that way.

Some of us here like to rant about the sport itself. Some of us here like to rant about the people ranting. Wild wacky stuff these internet boards are. People with opinions. Hmmm.

traderumor
11-02-2007, 04:34 PM
And you continue telling us how it should be done on a message board.

I don't see anything wrong with what WillyMo said and I would be shocked if 90% of the entire Bungle fanbase felt the same way. It was a gutless call. And I don't need to be an NFL coach to feel that way.

Some of us here like to rant about the sport itself. Some of us here like to rant about the people ranting. Wild wacky stuff these internet boards are. People with opinions. Hmmm.

Yes, people have opinions. Not all opinions are equally valid, regardless of the subject, and the medium that they are expressed. The rant has nothing to do with the subject of how a message board should run, it just humors me to watch all the folks act as if being an NFL football coach is a result of luck and family connections, as Ced put it, and that the hundreds of decisions made by folks in these types of jobs are as plain as the nose on their face.

Why, apparently its so easy, even a caveman could do it. It just gets tiresome to see coaches and front office people get thrown under the bus by folks wearing shirts with someone else's name and number on them when adversity hits an organization that was headed in the right direction.

Of course, there are probably a few posts a minute going up all over the country that say Jim Tressel doesn't know what he's doing...and you betcha the first time a mediocre or losing season comes along, the masses will be proclaiming him idiot of the year.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-02-2007, 06:26 PM
There are many on this board that did not think this organization was heading in the right direction and made such comments about Marvin's apparent weaknesses before the season even started, so I think it's a little unfair of you to take the position of "the complainers come out only when the poor coach and organization is facing adversity."

I think there are bad "head" coaches out there that stumble into blind luck and land a head coaching job only to hang around a few years until they are exposed. That's right, I said it. There are coaches out there that are not cut out to be head coaches for whatever reason. Marvin Lewis appears to be one of these guys. I say that as an opinion. Why? Because, based on my observation of the past few years, Marvin Lewis is utterly clueless as a head coach. That doesn't mean he wasn't decent as a position coach or D-coordinator, but as a HEAD coach, he is in way over his head. I don't need to be an ex-NFL head coach, the league commissioner, or to have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night to make such a claim. It is that obvious to me.

One last thing. Marvin Lewis and Jim Tressel are about as far apart as they come. Calling Tressel an idiot after one bad year would not be in the same universe as calling Marvin an idiot. I understand you are trying to make a point, but I think you have stretched it a bit.

WMR
11-02-2007, 09:11 PM
There are coaches out there that are not cut out to be head coaches for whatever reason. Marvin Lewis appears to be one of these guys. I say that as an opinion. Why? Because, based on my observation of the past few years, Marvin Lewis is utterly clueless as a head coach. That doesn't mean he wasn't decent as a position coach or D-coordinator, but as a HEAD coach, he is in way over his head.

PAGING Dick LeBeau, PAGING Dick LeBeau, Mr. LeBeau, please pick up the white courtesy phone.

traderumor
11-02-2007, 10:08 PM
PAGING Dick LeBeau, PAGING Dick LeBeau, Mr. LeBeau, please pick up the white courtesy phone.Yea, LeBeau and Marvin have very similar records, right?

BTW, Buckeye Redleg, I also did not think the Bengals did anything to improve themselves in the offseason and have also questioned Marvin's current approach. But I am not willing to totally dismiss the job he did to bring this franchise out of the dark ages because of a downturn. Perhaps he has hit a ceiling, but am not willing to turn a bump in the road into the bus running over the man. Of course, I also recommend keeping stocks for the long haul instead of always trying to make a quick buck, so maybe that has something to do with our totally different outlooks on the job someone is doing over a period of time.

WMR
11-02-2007, 10:14 PM
Are you talking as head coaches?

Let's compare the team talent-level and penny-pinching nature of lil Mikey during their respective durations at the helm.

WMR
11-02-2007, 10:18 PM
(And yes, Marvin inherited the majority of this franchise's current "best players." And, as others have said, drafting Carson was a no-brainer.)

I'm not one who hates everything that Marvin has done.

He DID do an admirable job of dragging this franchise out of the dark ages, although I also feel that a BUNCH of credit must go to Mike Brown for finally running the team like the billion dollar franchise that it is and not some Mom & Pop Store. That being said, however, it is becoming more and more apparent to myself--and others--that Marvin may have taken this team as far as he can. No shame in that. Look at Tony Dungy at Tampa Bay.

Marvin makes usually at least ONE tactical error per game... and you don't gotta be Vince Lombardi to recognize his gaffes. Gaffes that should not be acceptable, IMO, from a head coach in the National Football League.

traderumor
11-02-2007, 10:22 PM
Of course, that is what you were talking about. LeBeau suffered through a 2-14 season that netted Palmer, so his tenure wasn't completely unprofitable. But considering the Bengals have been in position to make the playoffs each of his years as coach, say what you want about two chokes that kept them out in '04 and '06, but they were in position. No coach other than PB and Wicky Wacky have had the team this consistent. So just keep on running the guy out of town, I'm sure Mikey will give you someone more to your liking, just like he has in the past.

BTW, every professional has weaknesses and crossroads in their careers. Most just aren't doing it on sidelines with thousands of pundits ready to deadpan every wrong move, and give no credit for the good things.

WMR
11-02-2007, 10:25 PM
Would you rather have Marty Schottenheimer as a head coach or Marvin Lewis?

The franchise is stagnating.

I'm happy for what has been done in the past, but it doesn't mean that we, the fans who put our hard-earned dollars into supporting this team, shouldn't expect forward momentum to continue.

traderumor
11-02-2007, 10:31 PM
(And yes, Marvin inherited the majority of this franchise's current "best players." And, as others have said, drafting Carson was a no-brainer.)

I'm not one who hates everything that Marvin has done.

He DID do an admirable job of dragging this franchise out of the dark ages, although I also feel that a BUNCH of credit must go to Mike Brown for finally running the team like the billion dollar franchise that it is and not some Mom & Pop Store. That being said, however, it is becoming more and more apparent to myself--and others--that Marvin may have taken this team as far as he can. No shame in that. Look at Tony Dungy at Tampa Bay.

Marvin makes usually at least ONE tactical error per game... and you don't gotta be Vince Lombardi to recognize his gaffes. Gaffes that should not be acceptable, IMO, from a head coach in the National Football League.

And what was Tony Dungy truly capable of? I made this point in other Bengals threads--the Bengals fire Marvin, another organization will very possibly reap the fruits of his OJT. Sort of like the Browns and Bellechick, the Bucs and Dungy. Why shouldn't the Bengals reap the benefits of someone overcoming a learning curve? There's that short-term vs. long-term outlook rearing its ugly head again.

And honestly, do you really believe that a reasonable standard for an NFL coach is zero "technical" gaffes every game? Again, hundreds of decisions to make in any given game...maybe if we were talking about brain surgery...more decisions in a game than most of us make on our jobs in a month.

WMR
11-02-2007, 10:34 PM
I think your argument is valid, TR. But I think that the other side of the coin concerning this situation is just as legitimate, and my feelings towards Marvin and what the next step the Bengals franchise should take are unchanged.

The window for success in the NFL is such a fleeting thing... I've seen enough egregious mistakes from Marvin the past few seasons to decide, in my mind at least, that the momentum Marvin brought to this franchise, while invaluable, has ceased to make him irreplaceable.

RedFanAlways1966
11-02-2007, 11:02 PM
I made this point in other Bengals threads--the Bengals fire Marvin, another organization will very possibly reap the fruits of his OJT. Why shouldn't the Bengals reap the benefits of someone overcoming a learning curve? There's that short-term vs. long-term outlook rearing its ugly head again.


And I guess the same could be said for Dave Miley, Jerry Narron or Pete Mackanin as MLB managers. I think Marvin has had more learning curve time as an NFL head coach than any of these three were given as managers. As in most pro sports it tends be a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately job.

Marvin has been there since what, 2003? Have we seen an "average" defense in 5 years? How long does a defensive guru get to overcome the "learning curve" of putting together an at least average defense? I don't like to blame a coach for injuries, but as far as I remember Pollack is the only one to be lost. Thurman? Perhaps Marvin was fooled by the character issue. I can believe it b/c he seems to get fooled a lot by this. Defensive line and backfield flat out stink. I doubt a healthy Pollack changes that. Marvin is supposed to know defense. He has long passed the learning curve of knowing NFL defenses.

I am sure a lot of good defensive players can be named that could have been drafted by the Bengals while Marvin had the chance. The Bengals get the likes of Thurman, Joseph, Rucker and Hall. Perhaps Joseph and Hall can be good, but hardly anyone can cover an NFL wideout forever. And without a pass rush they are asked to do this. And the Bengals decide to put the franchise tag on their their supposed pash rush specialist... Justin Smith. Ugh! Another bad defensive (and $$$) move IMO.

traderumor
11-03-2007, 12:47 AM
And I guess the same could be said for Dave Miley, Jerry Narron or Pete Mackanin as MLB managers. I think Marvin has had more learning curve time as an NFL head coach than any of these three were given as managers. As in most pro sports it tends be a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately job.

Marvin has been there since what, 2003? Have we seen an "average" defense in 5 years? How long does a defensive guru get to overcome the "learning curve" of putting together an at least average defense? I don't like to blame a coach for injuries, but as far as I remember Pollack is the only one to be lost. Thurman? Perhaps Marvin was fooled by the character issue. I can believe it b/c he seems to get fooled a lot by this. Defensive line and backfield flat out stink. I doubt a healthy Pollack changes that. Marvin is supposed to know defense. He has long passed the learning curve of knowing NFL defenses.

I am sure a lot of good defensive players can be named that could have been drafted by the Bengals while Marvin had the chance. The Bengals get the likes of Thurman, Joseph, Rucker and Hall. Perhaps Joseph and Hall can be good, but hardly anyone can cover an NFL wideout forever. And without a pass rush they are asked to do this. And the Bengals decide to put the franchise tag on their their supposed pash rush specialist... Justin Smith. Ugh! Another bad defensive (and $$$) move IMO.

And none of those had even a modest amount of success, without even mentioning the total incomparability of a major league manager to an NFL head coach.

As for the assistant on one side of the ball or the other becoming a head coach and his team not getting it on that side of the ball, again there are examples and apparently it is more complex than "if successful assistant on one side of the ball becomes head coach, his team should be strong on that side of the ball" since there are current examples where the exact thing has happened to Billick and Dungy that is happening to Marvin, just to give two obvious examples.

I would leave it at as an overall blind spot in talent evaluation on either side of the ball. Marvin probably needs a front office football guy to take that load off and either take over the D coordinating himself or get a new assistant. But I think it is simplistic to assume that if you hire a defensive assistant that your team will necessarily have strong defenses.

macro
11-03-2007, 12:51 AM
But considering the Bengals have been in position to make the playoffs each of his years as coach, say what you want about two chokes that kept them out in '04 and '06, but they were in position.

Yes, but how many of the 32 teams are mathematically alive heading into the last weekend of the season? Twelve actually make it every year, and I'd dare say that over half of the teams in the league usually have a shot. So I'm not all that impressed over their near misses.

Fact is, he's managed one winning season in five tries (counting this year). If we're satisfied with that, our standards are way too low. Replace Carson Palmer with Jon Kitna or Jeff Blake and Lewis' records are no better (or at least not much better) than Shula's, Coslett's, or Lebeau's.

WMR
11-03-2007, 01:47 AM
Would you rather have Marty Schottenheimer as a head coach or Marvin Lewis?

tr, who would you choose if given the chance to pick between these two?

Would anyone here choose Marvin?

traderumor
11-03-2007, 09:16 AM
Yes, but how many of the 32 teams are mathematically alive heading into the last weekend of the season? Twelve actually make it every year, and I'd dare say that over half of the teams in the league usually have a shot. So I'm not all that impressed over their near misses.

Fact is, he's managed one winning season in five tries (counting this year). If we're satisfied with that, our standards are way too low. Replace Carson Palmer with Jon Kitna or Jeff Blake and Lewis' records are no better (or at least not much better) than Shula's, Coslett's, or Lebeau's.Ok, replace Tom Brady with any of those average NFL QBs and I imagine New England has a different history, sort of like when Drew Bledsoe was leading the charge. If there is one thing that puts a feather in Marvin's hat, it is his predraft recruiting and subsequent year on the sideline handling of Carson. And the standards are not too low, the program was simply that messed up. While folks talk about how easy it is to turn things around in the NFL, there sure are a lot of teams struggling to right long histories of losing, like in St. Louis/Arizona, Detroit, Houston, and continued down cycles to irrelevance in Oakland, Tennessee, Buffalo and Cleveland. Yet it's all so easy and our expectations are just too low.

traderumor
11-03-2007, 09:20 AM
tr, who would you choose if given the chance to pick between these two?

Would anyone here choose Marvin?

Since when did Schottenheimer become such a genius. Because of last season at San Diego? Do you not remember the Eli Manning situation?

BTW, as much as I despise such questions, Schottenheimer is not one of my favorites, so Marvin would win by default. What's next, asking me who I'd take out between Becky and Susie?

macro
11-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Ok, replace Tom Brady with any of those average NFL QBs and I imagine New England has a different history, sort of like when Drew Bledsoe was leading the charge. If there is one thing that puts a feather in Marvin's hat, it is his predraft recruiting and subsequent year on the sideline handling of Carson. And the standards are not too low, the program was simply that messed up. While folks talk about how easy it is to turn things around in the NFL, there sure are a lot of teams struggling to right long histories of losing, like in St. Louis/Arizona, Detroit, Houston, and continued down cycles to irrelevance in Oakland, Tennessee, Buffalo and Cleveland. Yet it's all so easy and our expectations are just too low.

I'll give you the point about the QB, but I'll stick by my point about the lack of progress for the franchise. They'll enter their sixth season under Lewis next year with only one winning season under their belts. He's had long enough, and they seem to be regressing.

If we are to use those seven franchises as examples of how things can be, then we can use the other 24 franchises as examples of how things could be better. Again, we should expect more, and most NFL cities do.

traderumor
11-04-2007, 06:32 PM
I'll give you the point about the QB, but I'll stick by my point about the lack of progress for the franchise. They'll enter their sixth season under Lewis next year with only one winning season under their belts. He's had long enough, and they seem to be regressing.

If we are to use those seven franchises as examples of how things can be, then we can use the other 24 franchises as examples of how things could be better. Again, we should expect more, and most NFL cities do.Fair enough, but I really just think it is too easy to point fingers at Marvin as clueless. He has made some bad moves, he has made some good moves. The imbalance in the criticisms is what gets me defensive. And it isn't really having too low of expecations that gives rise to my way of thinking, it is trying to be fair in my expectations and not just take the easy route--"losing season, coach sucks, get a new one, same ole Bungles" and all the other cliches.

macro
11-04-2007, 11:45 PM
Fair enough, but I really just think it is too easy to point fingers at Marvin as clueless. He has made some bad moves, he has made some good moves. The imbalance in the criticisms is what gets me defensive. And it isn't really having too low of expecations that gives rise to my way of thinking, it is trying to be fair in my expectations and not just take the easy route--"losing season, coach sucks, get a new one, same ole Bungles" and all the other cliches.

While I am firmly in the camp that believes that Lewis is in over his head, I also realize that it won't matter who the coach is as long as the Browns are in charge. I read today that soP said in recent days that he will not hire an actual GM and he, his daughter, and her husband will continue to ruin things. (No, that's not a typo.) So, while I have lost faith in Marvin, I realize that replacing him won't change things as long as things continue to be mismanaged at the top.

EDIT: Just read the Bengals-Bills thread and realized that others are saying likewise.

Cedric
11-05-2007, 12:44 AM
While I am firmly in the camp that believes that Lewis is in over his head, I also realize that it won't matter who the coach is as long as the Browns are in charge. I read today that soP said in recent days that he will not hire an actual GM and he, his daughter, and her husband will continue to ruin things. (No, that's not a typo.) So, while I have lost faith in Marvin, I realize that replacing him won't change things as long as things continue to be mismanaged at the top.

EDIT: Just read the Bengals-Bills thread and realized that others are saying likewise.

It's not rocket science, I agree. ZERO accountability from Mike Brown and that starts from the top and reaches the last player. Remember when Canute Curtis was always going to make the team before each season? It's just like that now but in other ways. We have a man clearly in over his head and Mike Brown won't realize that until it's WAY too late.

WMR
12-02-2007, 09:36 PM
7-0 GOOD GUYS

C'mon Bengals, beat those Squealers

WMR
12-02-2007, 09:56 PM
WAY TO BLOW HIM UP RASHAD JEANTY

Nice defense from the Bengals so far. ::KNOCK WOOD::