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View Full Version : Votto and Hamilton to be gone?



Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 11:57 AM
From what I hear in the offices.. Votto and Hamilton are being shopped hardcore for pitching..

If we trade votto and not dunn this year this team is dooming itself for another 10 years...

NorrisHopper30
11-02-2007, 11:58 AM
From what I hear in the offices..

Are you sitting next to Krivsky's office with your laptop or something?

Source?

Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 11:59 AM
It is a very reliable source.. I promise you.. he has never steered me wrong in the past.. not that they will be gone for sure.. but the reds are showing those cards in trade talks at this time...

It is someone who is not only close with personnel, it is also a person who is in the office more than you or I...

Stephenk29
11-02-2007, 12:12 PM
I can live with this if we get a stud in return. I just hope we don't trade both for some average middle relievers. Maybe I'm being to optimistic but hopefully Votto and Hamilton will get either a solid starter or a closer.

RedsFanWC
11-02-2007, 12:18 PM
Shopping Hamilton and Votto makes sense to me, of course I would prefer it would be Encarnacion and Hamilton, but thats just me. In order to truly upgrade the pitching staff and not just bring in stopgaps, reclamation projects, or flawed #4 starters the Reds have to trade young offensive talent.

The positions that they can trade and have a suitable replacement are in the outfield (Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Hopper, Bruce, Freel), first base (Hatteberg, Votto, Cantu) and IMO third base (EE, Keppinger, Cantu, Freel). I think Votto will be a better player than EE offensively and there is more organizational depth at 3B than at 1B (the 3B depth is at the lower levels though), but Votto is a lefty and that may be why the Reds are more willing to shop him around.

Obviously everyone here would rather trade an older veteran like Griffey, Gonzalez, or Hatteberg, but those players wont bring back significant improvement to the pitching staff.

Orenda
11-02-2007, 12:26 PM
I know a guy who knows a guy, and that guy....well he really knows somebody. Krivsky hasnt been known to let potential moves get leaked before they take place. Excuse me if I'm skeptical.

bounty37h
11-02-2007, 12:30 PM
I will be disapointed if they trade either for less then a bonafide stud caliber starter each, anything less, hang up the phone.

Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 12:34 PM
I know a guy who knows a guy, and that guy....well he really knows somebody. Krivsky hasnt been known to let potential moves get leaked before they take place. Excuse me if I'm skeptical.

Not a potential leak... of a sure trade.. just who they are shopping.. you are right in the past he hasnt told us how untradable Dunn is.. or how close Giff was to leaving last year.. you are right.. we are ALWAYS in the dark about everything they do....

bounty37h
11-02-2007, 12:40 PM
From what I hear in the offices.. Votto and Hamilton are being shopped hardcore for pitching..

If we trade votto and not dunn this year this team is dooming itself for another 10 years...

So, this office hearsay, and news onwho they are shopping to/for?

Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 12:42 PM
pitching.. pitching.. and probably a little pitching..

bounty37h
11-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Got that, think that would be obvious, any names?

Orenda
11-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Not a potential leak... of a sure trade.. just who they are shopping.. you are right in the past he hasnt told us how untradable Dunn is.. or how close Giff was to leaving last year.. you are right.. we are ALWAYS in the dark about everything they do....

Fair enough. But after hearing they picked up Hatteberg and Valentin's options and considering they already Cantu, not to mention Dusty will likely prefer the vets. Votto's status with the team would definetely be in question anyway. Just wondering what makes you close to the situation, other than what I just listed? I do agree with you though, if anyone should go it should be the vets.

Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 12:46 PM
no just that they are the cards on the table being potentially shopped right now.. at least that is what i am hearing.. I would also have to assume freel and EE will be tied in with talks as potential deal shifters...

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-02-2007, 12:47 PM
I once met a guy in Pittsburg who owned a small coffee shop downtown. He gave me a magic coffee cup that he claimed would tell me anything I wanted to know if I drank out of it at the stroke of midnight on November 1st on an odd numbered year. Well last night I tried it out and what do you know.....Nothing
Which is about what we all know about the Reds plans at this point. There will be alot of players dangled for pitching, you can choose any two players on this team and say that you hear that they are shopping them and how can you be wrong. We will never know what really goes on unless there are actual Reds employees on here but Im pretty sure that after what happened to a certain Reds catcher... this room is clear. So here you go, I hear from a source that the Reds are shopping Hatte, Ede, and Belisle for pitching. This is one source that for me has never been wrong...Common sense.

Ahhhorsepoo
11-02-2007, 12:54 PM
Well if you actually had heard that maybe that would be interesting.. not sure how much trade value those 3 would have as a group.. maybe you could get a Alex Gonzalez, or a #5 starter type.. but that trade would not get me excited.. Votto and Hamilton being shopped though = get me excited.. not to see them leave, but those 2 can actually bring something back.. please don't tell me that by knowing who we are potentially shopping doesn't help.. because I was just telling everyone on here, what i hear from a very reliable source..

AdamDunn
11-02-2007, 01:03 PM
if they trade those two, I'm going to be a WK hater. Stupidest move ever. Two young studs for a starting pitcher. Wayne is either 1) getting desperate to save his job or 2) extremely stupid.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-02-2007, 01:06 PM
Well if you actually had heard that maybe that would be interesting.. not sure how much trade value those 3 would have as a group.. maybe you could get a Alex Gonzalez, or a #5 starter type.. but that trade would not get me excited.. Votto and Hamilton being shopped though = get me excited.. not to see them leave, but those 2 can actually bring something back.. please don't tell me that by knowing who we are potentially shopping doesn't help.. because I was just telling everyone on here, what i hear from a very reliable source..
Just tossin some junk man, havin a not so ok day. I agree those two would be an interesting net return. I have posted recently about trading Hamilton, not so much Votto but I'm having second thoughts. These two are cheap, real cheap and they will be for some time now. Not to mention that they look like they will be stars in the future. I understand that this team needs pitching, but we are saying that partly because our offence is pretty good right now. If we start unloading these inexpensive prospects that are major league ready then we are going to run out of offensive production. I am starting to think that for a small market team the term "we need pitching" will be an every year event. The big teams like the yankees and Sox will buy up the free agents and teams like the reds will be stuck trying to trade off prospects that they desperately need budget wise to get major league ready pitching. This will always be this way until ownership decides to cough up some money and raise payroll for a couple years.

Hey Meat
11-02-2007, 01:09 PM
From what I hear in the offices.. Votto and Hamilton are being shopped hardcore for pitching..

If we trade votto and not dunn this year this team is dooming itself for another 10 years...

What? I sure hope not. I can't stand this anymore. I could see shopping Hamilton, but not Votto.

Jefferson24
11-02-2007, 01:09 PM
We dont even know for sure what we have with those two. They could turn out to be really special. It would be dumb to trade them away until we know what they are capable of. I'm sure we we will get less in return than what they are worth.

Natty Redlocks
11-02-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm inclined to believe you because

A. It makes sense. They know they need more pitching than guys like Freel and Hatteberg will get them. The two guys you mention should have a nice amount of value. Shopping Encarnacion makes little sense because his value is likely to increase and he'd be far more difficult to replace.

B. I've always liked the username, "Ahhhorsepoo".

C. I want something big to happen, and Ryan Freel for Will Ohman would not be something big.

Hey Meat
11-02-2007, 01:10 PM
From what I hear in the offices.. Votto and Hamilton are being shopped hardcore for pitching..

If we trade votto and not dunn this year this team is dooming itself for another 10 years...

The more I think about, If this happens, Wayne must go.

Screwball
11-02-2007, 01:11 PM
if they trade those two, I'm going to be a WK hater. Stupidest move ever. Two young studs for a starting pitcher. Wayne is either 1) getting desperate to save his job or 2) extremely stupid.

:confused: Desperate or extremely stupid? First off, he's not saying they both will be traded for the same pitcher. Just that their names are mentioned as trade bait. Second, of course nobody wants to see Hamilton or Votto go, but the Reds need pitching. Good, established MLB pitching. I mean did you see the bullpen last year. Or 3/5 of the rotation?

Bottom line is, you have to deal value to get value. Another team isn't going to give up a top shelf pitcher for Ryan Freel or Alex Gonzalez. In order to trade for an area of weakness (pitching), we'd have to trade from an area of talent surplus (OFers - Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Bruce, etc., 1B - Hatt, Cantu (kinda), Votto).

It's not "desperate" or "extremely stupid" - it's just how baseball works.

jmac
11-02-2007, 01:20 PM
I really would hate to see Votto trade as he seems like someone who can be counted on to play 150 games + a season. (and produce).However "if" the right deal was there , I would rather see 90+wins.

Mutaman
11-02-2007, 01:25 PM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?

Jim
11-02-2007, 01:26 PM
Considering the depth we have at many of these positions, we NEED to make some solid trades for pitching. Aside for Bruce, I'm cool with trading anyone for good pitching (Bruce's ceiling is too high to chuck him now!)

Jim
11-02-2007, 01:27 PM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?

Nice! Great trade IMO, especially if Kennedy is included.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-02-2007, 01:28 PM
I could only stomach a Votto trade if the plan is to go with Dunn at first base in the very near future. I think we can get by with Hatte or Cantu but honestly when Bruce is ready to play then Dunn or Griffey will need to move to first. We all know it won't be Griffey. As far as Dunn's D at first goes he will need to work hard to get to a respectable level, but if Big poppy can play first and win a world series I would hope Dunner could handle the switch.

stevekun
11-02-2007, 01:31 PM
I don't buy it...don't believe it

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-02-2007, 01:35 PM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?
How is everyone getting these friends in the front office, where do I sign up? I hope this deal is for real. Makes me wish that the old rep system was still in place because this guy would get creamed if this is made up.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-02-2007, 01:37 PM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go? If true though this would be huge. Think about it.
The question would be is Jaba a starter or a closer?

rotnoid
11-02-2007, 01:51 PM
How is everyone getting these friends in the front office, where do I sign up? I hope this deal is for real. Makes me wish that the old rep system was still in place because this guy would get creamed if this is made up.

I think you're missing the sarcasm.

To the point of the thread though, shopping Hamilton and Votto makes perfect sense. Dusty is known to prefer vets over young guys. And... Do we know for sure either of them are going to pan out? There are already pretty solid major leaguers playing their positions and the ceiling is still high enough that they can be traded to a small market team with a pitcher with or about to get a big contract. These are the kind of moves it is time to start making. Can't shop in the bargain basement forever, there are only so many BP types to be found. Eventually, you have to put the coupons away and fork over the cash for known commodities.

muethibp
11-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Not surprising at all. Look, as someone noted already, it takes trading talent to get talent back. You don't get to add up all of our spare parts (ever notice how few of the actual deals out there are 4 for 1 like always seems to be suggested around here) - Freel, Hatteberg, and Edwin do not add up to a front line pitcher, no matter how many times it is suggested.

I understand you don't want to see Votto go to another team and achieve the success we all think he will realize as a Red. But do you think the Red Sox are all that pissed about trading a ridiculous talent like Hanley Ramirez? Of course not, they got back in the trade exactly what they needed and now they have another world title. If the Reds have an opportunity to move high ceiling position players for high talent or high ceiling pitchers, they obviously should do it.

Plus, Hamilton is still essentially an unknown commodity.

bounty37h
11-02-2007, 03:05 PM
I think you're missing the sarcasm.

To the point of the thread though, shopping Hamilton and Votto makes perfect sense. Dusty is known to prefer vets over young guys. And... Do we know for sure either of them are going to pan out? There are already pretty solid major leaguers playing their positions and the ceiling is still high enough that they can be traded to a small market team with a pitcher with or about to get a big contract. These are the kind of moves it is time to start making. Can't shop in the bargain basement forever, there are only so many BP types to be found. Eventually, you have to put the coupons away and fork over the cash for known commodities.

Seems your the one who missed the sarcasm on this post, I really dont think he as wondering where he could go find a friend in the FO :) I think from what we have seen of Hami, and from watching him here in NC for years, he is the real deal, a commodity we got a good break on

BLEEDS
11-02-2007, 03:25 PM
Well, I don't know about you guys, but I am DEFINITELY NOT on the "trade Votto" bandwagon.

All this talk about how the FO didn't think he could make it in the bigs, was pretty much disproved with his call-up.

Unless the FO still shares their AAAA thought on Votto, and think that showing was an aberration, I think it's a BAD move.

Giving up a 25-30+ HR guy at 1b, who by all accounts also takes a lot of walks, who makes less than $500K for probably the next 5 years, is NOT a way to win games.

You need a MONSTER at 1b - and not a two-headed slow veteran type.

I would trade Hamilton first, only because I am not sold on his durability, and we can get other guys to play the OF, including Votto.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Degenerate39
11-02-2007, 05:02 PM
Another Keymastur?

HokieRed
11-02-2007, 05:22 PM
No surprise in this to me. If you were another team with a pitcher and talking to the Reds, who would you be asking about? Assuming Bruce is off the table, Hamilton, Votto, and EE are the players with the most value. It also fits right in with Baker, who's a veterans guy. And if there's a sense that Dunn might be able to be signed long term, they may be talking to him about a position change to first base--which, if possible, may cover that position for the next five years at least. Then say we sign Hunter, spending 15 million on a lot more predictable commodity than we're likely to get by spending the same amount on pitching. For Hamilton and Votto, we get a promising starter and a reliever or, perhaps, a catching upgrade instead of the reliever. Your lineup looks like this:
1. Keppinger, SS
2. Encarnacion, 3B
3. Griffey, LF
4. Dunn, 1B
5. Phillips, 2B
6. Hunter, CF
7. Bruce, RF
8. Barrett, C (acquired as free agent, after trades of Hatteberg, Ross, Valentin)
9. Harang, Arroyo, #3 starter acquired for Hamilton, Bailey, Belisle (until Cueto or Maloney)

GoReds33
11-02-2007, 05:26 PM
They wouldn't have picked up Hatteberg's option if he wasn't going to get any playing time. Maybe Votto could be traded. I don't see Hatteberg being here past next year, but in that time we could fine a decent replacment. For a good pitcher we wouldn't be losing too much.

Screwball
11-02-2007, 06:05 PM
Not surprising at all. Look, as someone noted already, it takes trading talent to get talent back. You don't get to add up all of our spare parts (ever notice how few of the actual deals out there are 4 for 1 like always seems to be suggested around here) - Freel, Hatteberg, and Edwin do not add up to a front line pitcher, no matter how many times it is suggested.

I understand you don't want to see Votto go to another team and achieve the success we all think he will realize as a Red. But do you think the Red Sox are all that pissed about trading a ridiculous talent like Hanley Ramirez? Of course not, they got back in the trade exactly what they needed and now they have another world title. If the Reds have an opportunity to move high ceiling position players for high talent or high ceiling pitchers, they obviously should do it.

Plus, Hamilton is still essentially an unknown commodity.

Great post. I was about to mention the Han-Ram for Beckett trade, but you beat me to it. :thumbdown (;))

The only thing I really disagree on, though, is that Hamilton is an unknown commodity. IMO, I think he is a known commodity - .900+ OPS player with solid outfield defense. Plus, his games missed this year can be attributable to a multitude of factors other than the dreaded "injury risk": Narron simply wasn't going to start him over Dunn, Freel, or Griffey in the beginning of the season; he had gastroenteritis (sp?) - an illness, not an injury; and this past year was his first season of playing baseball after a ridiculous 4 year layoff. That's going to take its toll on anybody's body. I really don't think it's something that'll linger as he continues on with his career.

UPRedsFan
11-02-2007, 06:10 PM
It makes all the sense in the world to trade at least one of Votto/Hamilton. There are at least one too many left handed sluggers on the team. Where do you play Griffey, Dunn, Hamilton, Votto and Bruce? Griffey has little value, I'm sensing they want to keep Dunn long term - bird in the hand, Bruce is too valuable right now. So it's Votto and Hamilton - Whichever one fetches the best starting pitcher is what WK has to do. No brainer.

jmac
11-02-2007, 06:25 PM
The only thing I really disagree on, though, is that Hamilton is an unknown commodity. IMO, I think he is a known commodity - .900+ OPS player with solid outfield defense. Plus, his games missed this year can be attributable to a multitude of factors other than the dreaded "injury risk": Narron simply wasn't going to start him over Dunn, Freel, or Griffey in the beginning of the season; he had gastroenteritis (sp?) - an illness, not an injury; and this past year was his first season of playing baseball after a ridiculous 4 year layoff. That's going to take its toll on anybody's body. I really don't think it's something that'll linger as he continues on with his career.

Hamilton had a rash of injuries starting out for the Rays. They said, it was like anything that could happen to him, did. For that reason plus his injuries last season, I am skeptical of his durability.
Plus with Bruce on the way and Dunn possibly inked to longer deal, Votto and Hamilton would make us extreme lefty vulnerable.

jmac
11-02-2007, 06:28 PM
It makes all the sense in the world to trade at least one of Votto/Hamilton. There are at least one too many left handed sluggers on the team. Where do you play Griffey, Dunn, Hamilton, Votto and Bruce? Griffey has little value, I'm sensing they want to keep Dunn long term - bird in the hand, Bruce is too valuable right now. So it's Votto and Hamilton - Whichever one fetches the best starting pitcher is what WK has to do. No brainer.

Basically the lefty thing is what I was saying but your response posted before mine. I am very slow at typing.:)

AmarilloRed
11-02-2007, 11:10 PM
The only way we trade Votto/Hamilton together should be if we get a bonafide #1 ace starter. I seriously hope this is just bad office gossip, however. I think both players could be stars with the Reds for a long time.

steig
11-03-2007, 12:01 AM
I'd prefer not to part with Hamilton. I just think he has way to much upside at this point. Let's package Dunn and Votto and see what we can get for that.

roby
11-03-2007, 01:04 AM
The only way we trade Votto/Hamilton together should be if we get a bonafide #1 ace starter. I seriously hope this is just bad office gossip, however. I think both players could be stars with the Reds for a long time.

I agree. I think it would be a big mistake to part with these two guys. They are going to be mashers for a long time. I know we need pitching...and I want the reds to shore up this area of the team. I do think, however, that bailey and Cueto are both ready to begin to put things together THIS YEAR. I am not as sure about Belisle as some of you are. I know he has great stuff, but I am not convinced about his heart and his "pitching intelligence". Maybe a couple of free againt signings would be enough to strengthen the pitching staff...IF we hold on to Votto, Hamilton, Bruce (I think he's ready, too), Encarnacion, and Philips. Let's not be too quick to trade away our future when we can add through free agency.

RedsFanWC
11-03-2007, 01:25 AM
Who would you add through free agency? Nobody is out there, you cant have your cake and eat it too, you have to trade offense for pitching othewise you have what the reds have had since 2000 and that is a lot of offense and very little pitching

WMR
11-03-2007, 01:35 AM
The more I think about, If this happens, Wayne must go.

Don't know how you can possibly posit that without even knowing the potential return. Considering our available talent throughout the system, we would be trading from a strength to bolster a weakness.

WMR
11-03-2007, 01:37 AM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?

Seriously?

Wow, that would be sweet.

Sounds a little--A LOT?--too good to be true, though.

WMR
11-03-2007, 01:40 AM
They wouldn't have picked up Hatteberg's option if he wasn't going to get any playing time. Maybe Votto could be traded. I don't see Hatteberg being here past next year, but in that time we could fine a decent replacment. For a good pitcher we wouldn't be losing too much.

They were always going to pick up Hatteberg's option. He is considered to be VERY attractive trade-bait in a number of situations should the Reds decide he does not factor into their 25 man roster plans for this upcoming season.

Even if they decided to keep him a left-handed pinch-hitting specialist, he would SERIOUSLY bolster our bench from what it was this past season.

NOT picking up his option, no matter what they ultimately do with him, would have been a huge blunder.

Stephenk29
11-03-2007, 05:24 AM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?

hahahaha

roby
11-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Who would you add through free agency? Nobody is out there, you cant have your cake and eat it too, you have to trade offense for pitching othewise you have what the reds have had since 2000 and that is a lot of offense and very little pitching

IF I'm right, and that's a big IF, about Bailey and Cueto being ready to start contributing (and I think they both have awesome talent), then a free agent like Carlos Silva..or even Tom Glavine or Curt Schilling would pretty much put the starting rotation in good order. Adding a Cordero to the bullpen would be about enough there as well. Mr. C. said that he would be adding to the payroll, so this might be doable. (Also, you have Griffey, Gonzalez, Hatteburg, and even Dunn as trade bait to add additional help.) I just wouldn't go crazy trading our young talent. The Reds should horde it and enjoy it.

HokieRed
11-03-2007, 02:40 PM
Question: if we can sign Adam Dunn longer term (5 years, plus or minus), do you want him in LF? Is a position shift for Dunn to 1B inevitable? How you answer that question may have a lot to do with whether Votto or Hamilton, or both, go.

Bigredfan#1
11-03-2007, 02:58 PM
IF I'm right, and that's a big IF, about Bailey and Cueto being ready to start contributing (and I think they both have awesome talent), then a free agent like Carlos Silva..or even Tom Glavine or Curt Schilling would pretty much put the starting rotation in good order. Adding a Cordero to the bullpen would be about enough there as well. Mr. C. said that he would be adding to the payroll, so this might be doable. (Also, you have Griffey, Gonzalez, Hatteburg, and even Dunn as trade bait to add additional help.) I just wouldn't go crazy trading our young talent. The Reds should horde it and enjoy it.

I agree, think it is a big mistake to rid ourselves of our young talent!

roby
11-03-2007, 04:21 PM
Question: if we can sign Adam Dunn longer term (5 years, plus or minus), do you want him in LF? Is a position shift for Dunn to 1B inevitable? How you answer that question may have a lot to do with whether Votto or Hamilton, or both, go.

Personally, I'd rather have Votto at first than Dunn. And I'd rather have Hamilton in left than Dunn. (With Hopper filling in at times for Hamilton). When it comes to moving Dunn to first I believe that ship has sailed. He doesn't want to do it and I doubt that he'll give it his best effort.

SMcGavin
11-03-2007, 04:35 PM
:confused: Desperate or extremely stupid? First off, he's not saying they both will be traded for the same pitcher. Just that their names are mentioned as trade bait. Second, of course nobody wants to see Hamilton or Votto go, but the Reds need pitching. Good, established MLB pitching. I mean did you see the bullpen last year. Or 3/5 of the rotation?

Bottom line is, you have to deal value to get value. Another team isn't going to give up a top shelf pitcher for Ryan Freel or Alex Gonzalez. In order to trade for an area of weakness (pitching), we'd have to trade from an area of talent surplus (OFers - Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Bruce, etc., 1B - Hatt, Cantu (kinda), Votto).

It's not "desperate" or "extremely stupid" - it's just how baseball works.

Pretty much my thoughts too. Wayne isn't gonna deal these guys for riff-raff, if Votto or Hamilton goes we're gonna be getting a good pitcher back. Think of it this way - which of these three is the biggest dropoff?

Hamilton replaced with Bruce
Votto replaced with Hatteberg/Cantu
Arroyo-type pitcher replaced with Elizardo Ramirez

If Wayne can get an Arroyo-type for Hamilton or Votto, I think the Reds get better next season. Now I'd be hesitant because Votto and Hamilton will be such cheap production for the next few seasons, but I certainly consider a trade for pitching talent. So you at least keep that option over. If you sit around this offseason and say "Votto and Hamilton are good players and I won't consider trading them", then don't complain if we watch 90 more losses next year when half of our pitching staff is pure crap. And if that happens, don't give me this "Krivsky should have traded Freel and Stanton for (insert good pitcher here)".

David Cubbedge
11-03-2007, 04:39 PM
Personally, I'd rather have Votto at first than Dunn. And I'd rather have Hamilton in left than Dunn. (With Hopper filling in at times for Hamilton). When it comes to moving Dunn to first I believe that ship has sailed. He doesn't want to do it and I doubt that he'll give it his best effort.

Hell, he doesn't give LF his best effort. Although he did do a better job this season as he suggested he would in the spring.

I agree with you though roby. I fear the commitment made to Dunn may end up being our loss for Hamilton or Votto. We have been begging for young talent to come through for quite a while. Right now, we all of a sudden have a surplus of young talent and the direction has changed. We have a new manager who will be giving us heart attacks all season long when starting Hatteberg over Votto. Because of the commitments made to Baker and Dunn, Votto is definitely all but out of here.

I truly think he will be the next big time 1B in baseball, but I would still be ok with trading him if it meant he were a piece for someone like Bedard. My only concern is whether Krivsky sees the true value in Votto and Hamilton as he needs to put them on the same pedistal as he has put Dunn on in the trade market. Ask for the world Krivsky and consider nothing less.

TC81190
11-03-2007, 04:46 PM
My cousin's cousin's uncle's dog says you're wrong.

Votto, maybe, Hamilton, absolutely not.

INRedsFan
11-03-2007, 11:47 PM
if they trade those two, I'm going to be a WK hater. Stupidest move ever. Two young studs for a starting pitcher. Wayne is either 1) getting desperate to save his job or 2) extremely stupid.

Anybody can guess as to what is going to happen. In baseball today, there are no sure things up until the trade deadlines. Players are very mobile.

I agree that shopping Votto and Hamilton.....two gloves and bats.....is not a good thing. We do need pitching. But what pitching is out there for with teams that are willing to give the pitchers up and want these players?

INRedsFan
11-03-2007, 11:53 PM
How is everyone getting these friends in the front office, where do I sign up? I hope this deal is for real. Makes me wish that the old rep system was still in place because this guy would get creamed if this is made up.

I'd say that ahhhorsepoo and mutaman are sure candidates for the ORG with their inside information and contacts!

redsfan1966
11-04-2007, 12:02 AM
I am disappointed with how the whole Josh Hamilton story played out....after all the hype and good vibes to start the season--it ended with nagging and odd injuries and now possible trade bait. If he is moved, I hope he doesnt crumble with his support system possibly eroded.

AmarilloRed
11-04-2007, 12:49 AM
Is there anyone on the Reds current roster who is untouchable? In other words, when we talk about potential trades and who is safe at certain positions, are there any "for sures" on this team? As I try to play "What will the lineup look like in 2008?", I wanted to see if there are any 99% sure things. To put it a different way, who is in play and who is not?
-- Jeff S., Windsor, Calif.

In this day and age, especially with a wheeler-dealer like Wayne Krivsky as Reds general manager, "untouchable" is a risky word. Almost any player without a no-trade clause can be moved at any time. Now that Dusty Baker is on board, he might have some influence that could add to or subtract from a so-called list of guys that wouldn't get dealt under any circumstance.

These are the players I would put on that "untouchable" list:

Second baseman Brandon Phillips: A 30-30 player that plays great defense and is about to enter the prime years of his career? He's first-year arbitration eligible and should be signed to a multi-year deal.

Right-hander Aaron Harang: A 16-game winner the last two seasons and one of the league's most consistent pitchers since 2005. He's the ace and is going nowhere.

Right-hander Bronson Arroyo: Like Harang, Arroyo is durable and can be counted on for 200 innings. For a team that desperately needs better pitching, you don't move one of your inning-eaters.

Outfielder Josh Hamilton: Yes, he has a checkered past and was injury-prone this year. Other teams would probably make offers. But he might be the cheapest five-tool player in the league and was one of Krivsky's better coups this season. The Reds have two more seasons until he's even arbitration eligible, which is a lot of time to get healthy and produce big numbers for near the minimum salary. Keep him.

Right-hander Homer Bailey, first baseman Joey Votto, outfielder Jay Bruce: Future centerpieces of the team.

Outfielder Ken Griffey Jr.: A 10-5 player (At least 10 years in Majors, the last five with one team), which provides him with no-trade protection. Therefore, it'd be up to him if he wanted to go, if the Reds had a match with another team.

This is something we should all remember when discussing players who are out there available for trades. All teams have a core set of players who will be with the team under all circumstances. Votto and Hamiltton are attractive trade bait because they are both young,talented, and will be cheap for a long time. The same factors also contribute to it being very unlikely the Reds would be willing to trade either of them without getting an outstanding return, such as a Eric Bedard. There will be lots of talk this off-season about potential trades with the FA market so weak, but I seriously doubt the Reds are actively seeking to trade either of these players unless they are simply overwhelmed with a trade offer.

Mutaman
11-04-2007, 01:37 AM
If true though this would be huge. Think about it.
The question would be is Jaba a starter or a closer?

My friend in the front office tells me that in fact the Reds have discovered that Jaba is a terrific natural hitter. If they can swing the trade they intend to play him at first base. It will be like when the Yankees traded for Ruth and converted him from a pitcher to an outfielder. And my friend is never wrong.

Stephenk29
11-04-2007, 01:55 AM
My friend in the front office tells me that in fact the Reds have discovered that Jaba is a terrific natural hitter. If they can swing the trade they intend to play him at first base. It will be like when the Yankees traded for Ruth and converted him from a pitcher to an outfielder. And my friend is never wrong.

maybe now they will get it

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-04-2007, 12:29 PM
I'd say that ahhhorsepoo and mutaman are sure candidates for the ORG with their inside information and contacts!
If any of it had some merit then maybe, souds like y are just tossing things against the wall and hoping to get lucky.:rolleyes:

Degenerate39
11-04-2007, 12:36 PM
I'd say that ahhhorsepoo and mutaman are sure candidates for the ORG with their inside information and contacts!

That didn't help Keymastur get into the ORG

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-04-2007, 12:38 PM
That didn't help Keymastur get into the ORGI thought it did.

Degenerate39
11-04-2007, 12:50 PM
I thought it did.

I don't believe he ever got in. He went AWOL anywho

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-04-2007, 12:52 PM
I don't believe he ever got in. He went AWOL anywhofor some reason I remember thinking it was lame to let him in, but maybe he wasn't

Krawhitham
11-04-2007, 02:41 PM
Given a full season with the same PA as BP, Hamilton numbers would look like this.
108 Runs
181 Hits
35 Doubles
98 RBI
40 HR
69 BB
135 K

Most of Hamilton's injuries were BS, the team wanted to make sure he was not over worked in his 1st season back in 4 years

The wrist injury could not have been that bad because they waited till after the all star game to even look at it, and you can not tell me if any other player but him had the stomach bug they would had been put on the DL.

Hamilton puts up very good numbers, he is very cheap, he knows how to field his position, and he has a riffle for an arm.

Trade Dunn for pitching and use Bruce, Hamilton, & Jr in the outfield

gedred69
11-04-2007, 06:11 PM
I have a friend in the office who says Voto and Hamilton are about to be traded for Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. This guy has never been wrong in the past. The deal is imminent. In fact they may throw in Ian Kennedy. Still think WK must go?

As much as I would hate to lose Hamilton and Votto, IF, this trade could be made I'd have to say, done. Hamilton's place would be taken by Bruce, and Hamilton may well be fragile anyway. (Don't forget injuries and subsequent idle time led him down the wrong road). Hatteberg is here for another year, and Cantu looks to be interesting. What I fail to see is the Yanks parting with these guys. Lack of clutch pitching has been their downfall of late. Signing the aged Clemons showed they were desperate for a stopper. Riveira is on the backside of his career. If there is any chance this is for real, take the deal. The Reds have a lot of promising prospects who should fill the loss in time.

dsmith421
11-04-2007, 07:55 PM
When it comes to moving Dunn to first I believe that ship has sailed. He doesn't want to do it

Eminently possible.


and I doubt that he'll give it his best effort.

What an absolute pile of crap.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-05-2007, 12:35 AM
I don't believe he ever got in. He went AWOL anywho
awol, more like suspended for drug use and released I believe. Wouldn't it be a riot if there was no drug suspension and he was actually let go for leaking info on this site. lol

757690
11-05-2007, 03:47 AM
I have a feeling that WK will trade either Hamilton or Votto, depending on the deal, but not both. Trading one makes sense, considering how many left handed hitters they have, and with Bruce on his way. Can't trade Dunn or Griffey for contract reasons, so Votto or Hamiton make sense. I much prefer trading Votto since Hamilton is a much better overall talent than Votto. I see Votto being a Casey with more power, and Hamilton reminds me of Mantle.

This reminds me of a problem the Cardinals had in the early 80's. They had Leon Durham in the minors and Keith Hernandez already at first. Their GM at the time didn't want to trade Durham for a closer, even though that was what the Cards desperately needed at the time. He was fired, Whitey Herzog took his place, and immediately traded Durham to the Cubs for Bruce Sutter. They won the World Series the next year.

Also I remember Reds fans not wanting to trade Wily Mo, and not only did the Reds get Arroyo out of it, they still have too many hitters. One great hitter is much easier to replace and less important to a team winning than one great pitcher.

ChatterRed
11-05-2007, 11:36 AM
I said a month ago that Hamilton was our best trade bait. The Reds should be calling me any minute for more advice. ;)

ChatterRed
11-05-2007, 11:43 AM
22 year old - Chamberlain Stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8084

21 year old - Hughes stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7913

bounty37h
11-05-2007, 02:33 PM
No surprise in this to me. If you were another team with a pitcher and talking to the Reds, who would you be asking about? Assuming Bruce is off the table, Hamilton, Votto, and EE are the players with the most value. It also fits right in with Baker, who's a veterans guy. And if there's a sense that Dunn might be able to be signed long term, they may be talking to him about a position change to first base--which, if possible, may cover that position for the next five years at least. Then say we sign Hunter, spending 15 million on a lot more predictable commodity than we're likely to get by spending the same amount on pitching. For Hamilton and Votto, we get a promising starter and a reliever or, perhaps, a catching upgrade instead of the reliever. Your lineup looks like this:
1. Keppinger, SS
2. Encarnacion, 3B
3. Griffey, LF
4. Dunn, 1B
5. Phillips, 2B
6. Hunter, CF
7. Bruce, RF
8. Barrett, C (acquired as free agent, after trades of Hatteberg, Ross, Valentin)
9. Harang, Arroyo, #3 starter acquired for Hamilton, Bailey, Belisle (until Cueto or Maloney)

I certainly dont want no stinkin Barret cathching on this team!

Will M
11-05-2007, 04:11 PM
I have a feeling that WK will trade either Hamilton or Votto, depending on the deal, but not both. Trading one makes sense, considering how many left handed hitters they have, and with Bruce on his way. Can't trade Dunn or Griffey for contract reasons, so Votto or Hamiton make sense. I much prefer trading Votto since Hamilton is a much better overall talent than Votto. I see Votto being a Casey with more power, and Hamilton reminds me of Mantle.

This reminds me of a problem the Cardinals had in the early 80's. They had Leon Durham in the minors and Keith Hernandez already at first. Their GM at the time didn't want to trade Durham for a closer, even though that was what the Cards desperately needed at the time. He was fired, Whitey Herzog took his place, and immediately traded Durham to the Cubs for Bruce Sutter. They won the World Series the next year.

Also I remember Reds fans not wanting to trade Wily Mo, and not only did the Reds get Arroyo out of it, they still have too many hitters. One great hitter is much easier to replace and less important to a team winning than one great pitcher.

agree BUT we have a DH in LF and a DH in RF.
getting rid of one of these and replacing them with Bruce would improve the defense a lot.

Will M
11-05-2007, 04:13 PM
p.s. IF we can't/won't trade Junior then our best play might be Dunn to 1B with an OF of Jr in left, Bruce in center and Hamilton in right. Votto goes for a good pitcher.

BLEEDS
11-05-2007, 07:02 PM
Personally, I'd rather have Votto at first than Dunn. And I'd rather have Hamilton in left than Dunn. (With Hopper filling in at times for Hamilton).

and who plays Center? (don't say Ryan Freel).

PEACE

-BLEEDS

roby
11-05-2007, 07:27 PM
and who plays Center? (don't say Ryan Freel).

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Jay Bruce...ready and waiting! :thumbup:

Degenerate39
11-05-2007, 07:28 PM
awol, more like suspended for drug use and released I believe. Wouldn't it be a riot if there was no drug suspension and he was actually let go for leaking info on this site. lol

I know he was suspended for drugs I meant he went awol from Redszone.

Vada Pinson Fan
11-05-2007, 07:36 PM
The more I think about, If this happens, Wayne must go.


I agree! I would not trade Votto, period! The Brewers didn't trade their young nucleus and the Reds shouldn't either. With that said- I wouldn't be surprised to see Krivsky make this offer to the Giants: Joey Votto and Josh Hamilton to San Francisco for Barry Zito and cash.

Now if the Reds GM could acquire the Phillies Cole Hammels, I would try to trade the likes of Josh Hamilton, Scott Hatteberg and Matt Maloney to get Hammels. I think this is doable. Maloney looks to be very, very promising and scary good!

*BaseClogger*
11-05-2007, 08:00 PM
I agree! I would not trade Votto, period! The Brewers didn't trade their young nucleus and the Reds shouldn't either. With that said- I wouldn't be surprised to see Krivsky make this offer to the Giants: Joey Votto and Josh Hamilton to San Francisco for Barry Zito and cash.

Now if the Reds GM could acquire the Phillies Cole Hammels, I would try to trade the likes of Josh Hamilton, Scott Hatteberg and Matt Maloney to get Hammels. I think this is doable. Maloney looks to be very, very promising and scary good!


A. Did you not learn anything from the Eric Milton experience? Soft tossing flyball lefties don't fit in GABP... terrible idea...

B. Who said Cole Hamels is available? Be realistic please...

Jay Bruce
11-05-2007, 08:36 PM
I agree! I would not trade Votto, period! The Brewers didn't trade their young nucleus and the Reds shouldn't either. With that said- I wouldn't be surprised to see Krivsky make this offer to the Giants: Joey Votto and Josh Hamilton to San Francisco for Barry Zito and cash.

Now if the Reds GM could acquire the Phillies Cole Hammels, I would try to trade the likes of Josh Hamilton, Scott Hatteberg and Matt Maloney to get Hammels. I think this is doable. Maloney looks to be very, very promising and scary good!

Say what you want about Krivsky, but he hasn't shown a willingness to make a potentially devastating move like acquiring Zito for Votto and Hamilton. First of all, he hasn't had a DIPS ERA lower than 4.52 since 2004. Second of all, he is making 116 million over the next six years. The contract was bad when it was signed, and certainly doesn't look any better. If Krivsky is going to offer Votto and Hamilton to the Giants, Lincecum or Cain better be coming back.

Vada Pinson Fan
11-05-2007, 09:16 PM
A. Did you not learn anything from the Eric Milton experience? Soft tossing flyball lefties don't fit in GABP... terrible idea...

B. Who said Cole Hamels is available? Be realistic please...

BaseClogger- You totally missed the point. I was not saying getting Zito would be a good thing. Quite the contrary- I was implying Wane Krivsky would. Here is what I wrote- "With that said- I wouldn't be surprised to see Krivsky make this offer to the Giants: Joey Votto and Josh Hamilton to San Francisco for Barry Zito and cash. "


How can you compare Eric Milton to Barry Zito? C'mon, man...

Hey, Tom Seaver was traded. So was a great number of other Hall of Fame pitchers. If you think Cole Hammels can't be traded, (Narrow-minded) I would't want you to be a timid not take a chance General Manager of a team I care about.

Thanks for your post man! I hope you enjoyed mine as well!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan:beerme:

AmarilloRed
11-05-2007, 09:48 PM
I really would be surprised if Krivsky made a major trade that gave up a lot of young talent. The last time he had a major trade was "The Trade". Ever since then he seems to go for low risk- high potential moves that won't hurt the team much. It is very tempting to trade our young nucleus to improve the team, but we have to make sure that won't hurt our team in the future.

redsupport
11-05-2007, 09:52 PM
trade hamilton, he has not proven he can perform consistently, now is the apogee for Hamilton

gedred69
11-05-2007, 11:32 PM
trade hamilton, he has not proven he can perform consistently, now is the apogee for Hamilton

Reluctantly, VERY reluctantly, I agree. There are a lot of teams who could use him, and have something the Reds could use in return. WK's old team will most assuredly lose Hunter, and I would want Neshek in return, now that they've re-signed Nathan. Or maybe, Texas? Give us CJ Wilson. Here's a guy that the Rangers said, "Anybody is available,---except Wilson". (And another two I don't remember). Any other ideas?

gedred69
11-05-2007, 11:55 PM
trade hamilton, he has not proven he can perform consistently, now is the apogee for Hamilton

Reluctantly, VERY reluctantly, I agree. There are a lot of teams who could use him, and have something the Reds could use in return. WK's old team will most assuredly lose Hunter, and I would want Neshek in return, now that they've re-signed Nathan. Or maybe, Texas? Give us CJ Wilson. Here's a guy that the Rangers said, "Anybody is available,---except Wilson". (And another two I don't remember). Any other ideas?

*BaseClogger*
11-06-2007, 12:26 AM
BaseClogger- You totally missed the point. I was not saying getting Zito would be a good thing. Quite the contrary- I was implying Wane Krivsky would. Here is what I wrote- "With that said- I wouldn't be surprised to see Krivsky make this offer to the Giants: Joey Votto and Josh Hamilton to San Francisco for Barry Zito and cash. "


How can you compare Eric Milton to Barry Zito? C'mon, man...

Hey, Tom Seaver was traded. So was a great number of other Hall of Fame pitchers. If you think Cole Hammels can't be traded, (Narrow-minded) I would't want you to be a timid not take a chance General Manager of a team I care about.

Thanks for your post man! I hope you enjoyed mine as well!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan:beerme:

Well, in that case, we outta go out and trade for Jake Peavy and Brandon Webb too!

You are correct, I did misinterperate your comment... but, what MAJOR mistakes has WK made that lead you to believe he would go out and trade for a Barry Zito? Oh, and go back and look at Eric Milton's stats before Cincy and they are very similar to Zito's (other than his Cy Young abberation). You have to account for the parks they pitched in and the fact that Milton has had some injuries...

*edit* Tom Seaver was not traded in his prime either...

AmarilloRed
11-06-2007, 02:16 AM
The only problem with trading Votto and Hamilton is there is not comparable production at their position if they are traded. We have Hatteberg and Cantu if Votto is traded. Hatteberg is nearing the end, and Cantu did well but may not be a starter. Hamilton is the only Reds starting outfielder who is guaranteed to be here in 2009. This is Dunn's final year, and next year is Griffey's option year. Neither of them could be on the Reds in 2009. I would like to see us get starting pitching as much as anyone, but I don't want to weaken our team by trading pivotal players.

ChatterRed
11-06-2007, 08:55 AM
Other than maybe the Kearns/Lopez trade, Krivsky has shown he can get something for almost nothing. Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Hamilton, etc...........

I don't see Wayne giving up the house for anything. I do see Hamilton and Votto on the block.........but only for the right deal that is more favorable for the Reds. I'm sure the mandate the Reds have out in trying to trade those two is "Wow us!".

AmarilloRed
11-06-2007, 12:25 PM
The only way those two are traded is if we get a guaranteed ace starting pitcher back as part of a huge trade. I think we might see those two traded as part of a deal for Eric Bedard.

Vada Pinson Fan
11-06-2007, 06:56 PM
Say what you want about Krivsky, but he hasn't shown a willingness to make a potentially devastating move like acquiring Zito for Votto and Hamilton. First of all, he hasn't had a DIPS ERA lower than 4.52 since 2004. Second of all, he is making 116 million over the next six years. The contract was bad when it was signed, and certainly doesn't look any better. If Krivsky is going to offer Votto and Hamilton to the Giants, Lincecum or Cain better be coming back.

Jay Bruce- Again- I said "I wouldn't be surpriised" if Krivsky made a trade for Zito AND CASH. Which meant the Giants would have to substantially cover their horrible contractual mistake they made to Zito in any deal with the Reds. Zito was a stud with the A's and Baseclogger compares him to Eric Milton! Unbelievable. Before you react to a post make sure you understand what the author is stating. I don't want Zito either! But Maybe Krivsky does considering the pitchers he brings in. If they (the pitchers) were good at any point in their career's- it seems Wayne Krivsky will go after them.

I disagree about... "Krivsky..hasn't shown a willingness to make a potentially devastating move like acquiring Zito for Votto and Hamilton." Please understand: I don't want Krivsky to make a deal like that either, and I don't want Joey Votto traded PERIOD(!), but gauging some of his moves it appears to be gold or fools gold with his GM transactions!

I strongly believe to this day that the Reds (Krivsky) could have received much more in return in the trade that sent Kearns, Felipe Lopez and Ryan Wagner (all of these Reds players were former #1 draft choices- Kearns and Wagner #1 by the Reds and Lopez #1 by Toronto) to Jim Bowden and the Nationals for a devastatingly bad player named Royce Clayton,along with the oft-injured Gary Majewski, a second baseman-Brendan Harris- whom the Reds never gave a chance to and was claimed by Tampa Bay, an oft-injured Bill Bray (Bray- the only saving-grace in the deal to this point), and another pitcher-Daryl Thompson- that is currently in the Reds minor league system. If you remember Tony La Russa openly criticized this trade and inwardly had to be laughing and thanking Krivsky for making such a boneheaded trade.

Add to that the devastation- WK is causing because of poor payroll decisions. Hal McCoy wrote on July 12th, 2007 http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2007/07/11/ddn071207reds.html
the Reds at that time will owe Jerry Narron more than $900,000 for the remainder of this year and his 2008 contract. Other devastating moves by Krivsky include Stanton's two year contract for a horrible 2007 season and looks like more to follow in 2008 unless Castellini eats that contract too. Add to that the plethora of over the hill relief pitchers Krivsky signed with little to no benefit, trading Jason LaRue and then having to pay his salary to KC for two years only to wind up signing Chad Moeller and I think Krivsky released and re-signed this guy two or three times before FINALLY cutting ties with Moeller. The list goes on.

Here is a great account by a Reds insider (Larry Barton)
http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2006/12/04/ddn120506reds.html
on why Barton left the Reds. A very worthwhile read and a statement listed in the article that has Barton allegedly quoting Krivsky who said I'm not worried about next year. The quote "I told him I didn't like the deal and asked who was going to play shortstop next year, and he told me, 'I'm not worried about next year.' "
Barton said when the Reds were ready to acquire pitcher Eddie Guardado from Seattle, a scout told him Guardado had a bad arm that could blow any time, "But Wayne said he had talked to his agent and was told Guardado just had a bad back and his arm was OK."
Krivsky made the deal, and Guardado underwent Tommy John ligament transplant surgery in his elbow Sept. 8, 2006.

So Jay Bruce, what do you think now? I was happy when Castellini hired Wayne Krivsky Feb. 8th, 2006 but Krivsky has made devastating moves to the Reds in my opinion. Not to mention some of the long time scouts that have left under Krivsky's watch. In fairness Krivsky has done very well with the acquisitions of Brandon Phillips, Josh Hamilton, Arroyo and Burton.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas Jay.

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan

Jay Bruce
11-06-2007, 07:28 PM
Jay Bruce- Again- I said "I wouldn't be surpriised" if Krivsky made a trade for Zito AND CASH. Which meant the Giants would have to substantially cover their horrible contractual mistake they made to Zito in any deal with the Reds. Zito was a stud with the A's and Baseclogger compares him to Eric Milton! Unbelievable. Before you react to a post make sure you understand what the author is stating. I don't want Zito either! But Maybe Krivsky does considering the pitchers he brings in. If they (the pitchers) were good at any point in their career's- it seems Wayne Krivsky will go after them.

I disagree about... "Krivsky..hasn't shown a willingness to make a potentially devastating move like acquiring Zito for Votto and Hamilton." Please understand: I don't want Krivsky to make a deal like that either, and I don't want Joey Votto traded PERIOD(!), but gauging some of his moves it appears to be gold or fools gold with his GM transactions!

I strongly believe to this day that the Reds (Krivsky) could have received much more in return in the trade that sent Kearns, Felipe Lopez and Ryan Wagner (all of these Reds players were former #1 draft choices- Kearns and Wagner #1 by the Reds and Lopez #1 by Toronto) to Jim Bowden and the Nationals for a devastatingly bad player named Royce Clayton,along with the oft-injured Gary Majewski, a second baseman-Brendan Harris- whom the Reds never gave a chance to and was claimed by Tampa Bay, an oft-injured Bill Bray (Bray- the only saving-grace in the deal to this point), and another pitcher-Daryl Thompson- that is currently in the Reds minor league system. If you remember Tony La Russa openly criticized this trade and inwardly had to be laughing and thanking Krivsky for making such a boneheaded trade.

Add to that the devastation- WK is causing because of poor payroll decisions. Hal McCoy wrote on July 12th, 2007 http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2007/07/11/ddn071207reds.html
the Reds at that time will owe Jerry Narron more than $900,000 for the remainder of this year and his 2008 contract. Other devastating moves by Krivsky include Stanton's two year contract for a horrible 2007 season and looks like more to follow in 2008 unless Castellini eats that contract too. Add to that the plethora of over the hill relief pitchers Krivsky signed with little to no benefit, trading Jason LaRue and then having to pay his salary to KC for two years only to wind up signing Chad Moeller and I think Krivsky released and re-signed this guy two or three times before FINALLY cutting ties with Moeller. The list goes on.

Here is a great account by a Reds insider (Larry Barton)
http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2006/12/04/ddn120506reds.html
on why Barton left the Reds. A very worthwhile read and a statement listed in the article that has Barton allegedly quoting Krivsky who said I'm not worried about next year. The quote "I told him I didn't like the deal and asked who was going to play shortstop next year, and he told me, 'I'm not worried about next year.' "
Barton said when the Reds were ready to acquire pitcher Eddie Guardado from Seattle, a scout told him Guardado had a bad arm that could blow any time, "But Wayne said he had talked to his agent and was told Guardado just had a bad back and his arm was OK."
Krivsky made the deal, and Guardado underwent Tommy John ligament transplant surgery in his elbow Sept. 8, 2006.

So Jay Bruce, what do you think now? I was happy when Castellini hired Wayne Krivsky Feb. 8th, 2006 but Krivsky has made devastating moves to the Reds in my opinion. Not to mention some of the long time scouts that have left under Krivsky's watch. In fairness Krivsky has done very well with the acquisitions of Brandon Phillips, Josh Hamilton, Arroyo and Burton.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas Jay.

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan

I knew exactly what you were saying, I simply don't agree with your assessment.

Do I think the Reds should have gotten more for Kearns/ Lopez? Sure, but as I have stated ad nauseum, that is because I never thought Majewski was a worthwhile asset. Kearns and Lopez were the right players to trade, since they were getting too expensive for their talents, and weren't long for the team beacuse of it.

Since signing the likes of Stanton in the offseason, it seems that Krivsky has looked more closely into getting pitchers that have a chance to miss bats or get a lot of groundballs, as the Burton, McBeth etc acquisitions attest to. Zito is nothing spectacular in the strikeout department, and is not one to induce a lot of groundballs. Therefore, I don't believe that Krivsky would have a lot of interest in Zito, even at a heavily reduced price, if it takes a Hamilton and Votto to do it.

In addition, the Stanton and LaRue deals weren't good, but they were not devastating. Signing mediocre players like this to short term deals at low money may not be bright, but don't hinder thew franchise any longer than one or two years. Besides, the point of the Stanton deal was to give some of the relievers in the minors more time to develop, as Krivsky didn't think some of them were ready. With Zito, we would be badly overpaying a mediocre pitcher for 6 years, even with this cash you say the Giants would give us.


This opinion may change it Krivsky does something idiotic like sign Carlos Silva, Livan Hernandez or Scott Linebrink to big deals, but even then, it would only be money. In your scenario, we are paying obscene money, and giving up extremely marketable assets. Krivsky has shown no inkling to trade the good young talent in an idiotic trade. In conclusion, he made made some good deals and some bad, but none of his bad deals have been of the devastating nature like you suggest.

Vada Pinson Fan
11-06-2007, 07:29 PM
You are correct, I did misinterperate your comment... but, what MAJOR mistakes has WK made that lead you to believe he would go out and trade for a Barry Zito? Oh, and go back and look at Eric Milton's stats before Cincy and they are very similar to Zito's (other than his Cy Young abberation). You have to account for the parks they pitched in and the fact that Milton has had some injuries...

*edit* Tom Seaver was not traded in his prime either...

Exactly my point- Eric Milton was never a Cy Young award winner. As you mentioned Zito was and may be again. But Milton will never be. I think we can agree on this.

You said Tom Seaver was not traded in his prime either...
When the Reds (Bob Howsam) acquired him, Seaver was still in his prime- Seaver was R.O.Y. in 1967 and he pitched for the Reds beginning in 1977. Seaver finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting in 1981 to Valenzuela. Seaver was 14-3 in '77 for the Reds and 20-6 overall that year. 1978 saw Tom go 16-14, 1979- 16-6, 1980- 10-8, and in 1981 Seaver was 14-2. I think that was indicative Seaver was still in his prime.

So you wanted a pitcher you think who was traded in his prime-( because you think Cole Hammels can't be?) How about Josh Beckett!!! I would've bet you wouldn't have thought he was tradeable either but he was!!!

Thanks for rereading my post BaseClogger, I appreciate that!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan

Vada Pinson Fan
11-06-2007, 07:44 PM
Jay Bruce- Again, I don't want a trade like that to happen but with Krivsky; stay tuned. I feel this way because he didn't listen to Larry Barton, et al, in the Kearns trade as well as in the Guardado trade. Sounds like you didn't read the articles in the links I posted in my comments. Please do. The cash I'm suggesting is just like the way Texas paid Millions to the Yankees to trade for ARod. I think the Giants realize they made a huge mistake investing millions in Zito, so far.

Let's just stay tuned to Wayne Krivsky's dealings and rejoice or have our jawbone's drop.

At this point, let's agree to disagree.

Thanks to you and BaseClogger. The exchange was fun!!!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan

*BaseClogger*
11-06-2007, 11:22 PM
Exactly my point- Eric Milton was never a Cy Young award winner. As you mentioned Zito was and may be again. But Milton will never be. I think we can agree on this.

You said Tom Seaver was not traded in his prime either...
When the Reds (Bob Howsam) acquired him, Seaver was still in his prime- Seaver was R.O.Y. in 1967 and he pitched for the Reds beginning in 1977. Seaver finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting in 1981 to Valenzuela. Seaver was 14-3 in '77 for the Reds and 20-6 overall that year. 1978 saw Tom go 16-14, 1979- 16-6, 1980- 10-8, and in 1981 Seaver was 14-2. I think that was indicative Seaver was still in his prime.

So you wanted a pitcher you think who was traded in his prime-( because you think Cole Hammels can't be?) How about Josh Beckett!!! I would've bet you wouldn't have thought he was tradeable either but he was!!!

Thanks for rereading my post BaseClogger, I appreciate that!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan

No, Zito will never again win a Cy Young. At this point, outside of injuries, Eric Milton is essentially the same pitcher as Barry Zito...

Tom Seaver's stats pre-1977:
IP K ERA
2718.3 2334 2.47

post-1977:
IP K ERA
2064.3 1306 3.37

Josh Beckett is an excellent example however, except that the Phillies don't firesale every five years...