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View Full Version : Very disappointed in the Reds so far



fewfirstchoice
11-09-2007, 11:10 PM
Is it just me or does it seem like every team(including the Royals and Rays)have made noise this winter so far except the Reds.I mean yeah sure the Reds hired Dusty Baker but nothing on the player front so far.I mean not even a whisper of a trade rumor or a free agent signing.With all the players out there right now that could be had there should be some noise on the Reds front.Next is what I think the Reds should try to do this winter.

Firt off trade for M Cabrera from the MArlins.Sure he will cost a lot but this franchise needs a player like Miggy.He could be had for a hefty price but i think the Reds need to try and oull the trigger.Maybe send EE or Votto(there choice the one that stays plays first),Cueto,Burton,Belisle,and Stubbs to the Marlins for Miggy.This maybe enough to pry him away.If not you may have to offer some other package but I would try to get Miggy on the Reds team.

Next I would sign Gagne to a 2 year 10 million contract with a option for 2010 worth 9 mil.This would give the Reds a reliable closer who would go back to be a All Star closer in the NL.

Then I would trade for Jon Garland from the White Sox.Send them Wood,Valiha,(spelling not sure if this is correct)and either Hopper or Keppinger there choice.This would give Cincy a good #3 starter behind the big 2.

I would also sign Jon Leiber to a 2 year 8 mil. deal to be either the 4th or 5th starter.Either behind or in front of Baliey.HE would be a great guy to help teach Bailey and a great club house guy.We could get a slightly above 500 pitcher to fill in a hole with Leiber.

Then I sign David Riske to be in the bullpen and replace Burton.Probably around 10 mil for 3 years.Let him or Wethers be the setup man.He would be a great addition to the Reds pen.

Then I would (get ready this is a little out of left field) sign Paul Loduca to a 2 yr 8/10 mil. deal.The Reds need a good defensive catcher who can handle a bat.Sure he doesnt have the power Ross does but he is a better overall catcher>he is still worth 5 or 6 mil a year for what he does with the pitching staff and bat.

So lets look at what the lineup would be with these trades and signings.
1)LoDuca-C 4 mil.
2)Phillips-2B probably around 3 mil.
3)JR-RF 9Mil.
4)Miggy-3B 8 mil.
5)Dunn-LF 13 mil.
6)Hamilton-CF 1 mil.
7)Votto or EE- around 1 or 2 mil.
8)Gonzo-SS 4 mil.

SP
1)Harang- I think he is the 8 or 9 mil range next year.
2)Arroyo- hes around the same as Harang I think.
3)Jon Garland- The Reds pay around 5 mil. or his salary.
4)Bailey- 1mil. or so
5)Leiber- 4 mil.

BP
CL-Gagne 5 mil.
setup-Wethers- 3 mil.
setup- Riske- 3 mil.
Lefty-Stanton -2 mil.
lefty- Bray-1mil.
righty-magic man 1 mil.
righty- Macbeth 1 mil.

Bench
IN-Hatteberg
IN-Cantu
C-Valentin
OF-FA or MInor leauger
OF-same as above

Now that looks like a solid playoff contending 25 man roster if I do say so.So if Mr. Bob does raise the payroll like has been reported this roster could work out.Its around 85/87 mil.Now I know that its probably not going to raise that much but its fun to play with the Fa and trade possibiltys.But I thin if we some how get a lineup close to this the Reds will be in the playoffs next season.What do ya think.Thanks for reading.

Natty Redlocks
11-09-2007, 11:13 PM
Yeah, and how come they haven't signed A-Rod yet? What's the big holdup? Jeez.

*BaseClogger*
11-09-2007, 11:17 PM
A. Where is Jon Coutlangus?

B. Paul Lo Duca is NOT worth $4 million when we have David Ross for $2 million. Ross is better defensively and about the same offensively.

C. Instead of some of the prospects you mentioned, we should try to move Matt Maloney while his value is high, and because he doesn't fit in with GABP.

D. Most of those moves are best-case scenarios and therefore unrealistic...

kaldaniels
11-09-2007, 11:47 PM
Is it just me or does it seem like every team(including the Royals and Rays)have made noise this winter so far except the Reds.I mean yeah sure the Reds hired Dusty Baker but nothing on the player front so far.I mean not even a whisper of a trade rumor or a free agent signing.With all the players out there right now that could be had there should be some noise on the Reds front.Next is what I think the Reds should try to do this winter.

Firt off trade for M Cabrera from the MArlins.Sure he will cost a lot but this franchise needs a player like Miggy.He could be had for a hefty price but i think the Reds need to try and oull the trigger.Maybe send EE or Votto(there choice the one that stays plays first),Cueto,Burton,Belisle,and Stubbs to the Marlins for Miggy.This maybe enough to pry him away.If not you may have to offer some other package but I would try to get Miggy on the Reds team.

Next I would sign Gagne to a 2 year 10 million contract with a option for 2010 worth 9 mil.This would give the Reds a reliable closer who would go back to be a All Star closer in the NL.

Then I would trade for Jon Garland from the White Sox.Send them Wood,Valiha,(spelling not sure if this is correct)and either Hopper or Keppinger there choice.This would give Cincy a good #3 starter behind the big 2.

I would also sign Jon Leiber to a 2 year 8 mil. deal to be either the 4th or 5th starter.Either behind or in front of Baliey.HE would be a great guy to help teach Bailey and a great club house guy.We could get a slightly above 500 pitcher to fill in a hole with Leiber.

Then I sign David Riske to be in the bullpen and replace Burton.Probably around 10 mil for 3 years.Let him or Wethers be the setup man.He would be a great addition to the Reds pen.

Then I would (get ready this is a little out of left field) sign Paul Loduca to a 2 yr 8/10 mil. deal.The Reds need a good defensive catcher who can handle a bat.Sure he doesnt have the power Ross does but he is a better overall catcher>he is still worth 5 or 6 mil a year for what he does with the pitching staff and bat.

So lets look at what the lineup would be with these trades and signings.
1)LoDuca-C 4 mil.
2)Phillips-2B probably around 3 mil.
3)JR-RF 9Mil.
4)Miggy-3B 8 mil.
5)Dunn-LF 13 mil.
6)Hamilton-CF 1 mil.
7)Votto or EE- around 1 or 2 mil.
8)Gonzo-SS 4 mil.

SP
1)Harang- I think he is the 8 or 9 mil range next year.
2)Arroyo- hes around the same as Harang I think.
3)Jon Garland- The Reds pay around 5 mil. or his salary.
4)Bailey- 1mil. or so
5)Leiber- 4 mil.

BP
CL-Gagne 5 mil.
setup-Wethers- 3 mil.
setup- Riske- 3 mil.
Lefty-Stanton -2 mil.
lefty- Bray-1mil.
righty-magic man 1 mil.
righty- Macbeth 1 mil.

Bench
IN-Hatteberg
IN-Cantu
C-Valentin
OF-FA or MInor leauger
OF-same as above

Now that looks like a solid playoff contending 25 man roster if I do say so.So if Mr. Bob does raise the payroll like has been reported this roster could work out.Its around 85/87 mil.Now I know that its probably not going to raise that much but its fun to play with the Fa and trade possibiltys.But I thin if we some how get a lineup close to this the Reds will be in the playoffs next season.What do ya think.Thanks for reading.

I'm sorry...but those trade scenarios are absolutely absurd. Don't blast the Reds for not making a move then spout off your "Fantasyland Trades" that they should have made. By the way, I'm of the opinion of...if the right move isn't there you don't make a move just to make one. As much as some like to think...putting together a winning franchise can't be done in a week.

Chi-Town Red
11-10-2007, 12:03 AM
it's just you

AmarilloRed
11-10-2007, 12:05 AM
Let's wait until free agency actually becomes active on Monday and /or the Winter Meetings are over to blast the Reds for not doing anything.

ChatterRed
11-10-2007, 12:41 AM
it's just you

My thoughts exactly. Are you sure you're not Jim Bowden?

fadetoblack2880
11-10-2007, 01:09 AM
Let's wait until free agency actually becomes active on Monday and /or the Winter Meetings are over to blast the Reds for not doing anything.

I agree. Those are excellent moves if you're playing a videogame. Not many teams have done much as of yet. What are we, two maybe three weeks into the offseason? I know the Reds didn't do much of anything last offseason, but we still have several months to go. Be patient and optimistic. The Dusty Baker hiring may turn out to be a bust, but it seems that what Mr. Castellini wants to do is win and if they decided to spend the amount of money they spent to get Baker, what's to say they won't do the same with free agents and trades.

hippie07
11-10-2007, 01:30 AM
I don't think we should have done anything yet, but I too wish we had heard some rumblings, whispers, or whimpers out of the Reds during the meetings. Instead of taking jabs at your ideas, I'd rather play along and play GM too, so I'll take my stab.
Trades I'd make
1. Miguel Cabrera: seems like they're wanting infielders & pitching - I'd offer Philips, EdE, Wood and/or Maloney, and Majewski (for what he's worth)
2. Bedard: I think I read something where they're looking for offense - I'd send Hamilton, Votto, and Cueto -- if they don't bite, then maybe Bruce instead of Hamilton
3. KGJ for a good MLB reliever and a prospect or two

Free Agents I'd Sign
1. Gagne (if we stay reasonable) OR Cordero (if we decide to spend a litte)
2. Reliever (don't know who's best to go after, but I'll take your word on Riske)
3. Low Risk Starter to compete for 5th Spot (Clement or Prior, for example, on an incentive type deal)

Finished Product
1)Freel/Hopper/Dickerson- CF
2)Keppinger - 2B
3)Hamilton/Bruce - RF
4)Cabrera- 3B
5)Dunn-LF
6)Hatteberg/Cantu -1B
7)Gonzo- SS
8)Ross/Valentin - C

SP
1)Harang
2)Bedard
3)Arroyo
4)Bailey
5)Belisle/Clement/Prior


BP
CL-Gagne/Cordero
setup-Weathers
setup-Burton
righty- Riske
Reliever acquired for KGJ
lefty- Bray
lefty- Coutlangus


Bench
IN-Hatteberg/Cantu
C-Valentin/Ross
OF-Hopper/Dickerson
OF/IN- Freel

I don't think this is too idealistic and keeps us young while not really raising payroll all that much (at least in the next couple years) and we get to keep at least one out of each of Hamilton/Bruce and Cueto/Bailey.

ChatterRed
11-10-2007, 01:38 AM
No way I trade Phillips or Bruce.

I'd love to have Cabrera, Bedard, and/or Kazmir. Not sure we have enough to trade for all 3 or even 2 of them. I'd trade Bailey, Hamilton, EE (for Cabrera), Cueto, Maloney in any type of packages we could to get 2 of those 3 players. I doubt it's possible.......but I think that is some pretty good return. I'd even consider trading Votto if I could get all 3 of them, which is a pipedream.

1B Hatteberg/Cantu/Keppinger
2B Phillips/Keppinger
SS Gonzalez/Keppinger
3B Cabrera/Keppinger/Cantu
LF Dunn
CF Bruce
RF Griffey

SP Harang
SP Bedard
SP Kazmir
SP Arroyo
SP Free Agent

RP Gagne
RP Burton
RP Weathers
etc., etc......
3 LH power hitters in your outfield, 2 RH power hitters in your infield. Obviously we've traded Votto, Hamilton and EE along with Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney to get those guys.

It shows that this team could be made to be competitive with the right trades and free agent signings. And we have the prospects to get it done, IMO.

Krawhitham
11-10-2007, 02:34 AM
Cabrera is horrible at 3rd and will come in 20 pounds heavier next season

pitching, pitching, pitching is all they need and maybe just relief pitching at that. I would like to see Dunn traded so Bruce can play, but Dunn can not be traded until June

fewfirstchoice
11-10-2007, 02:51 AM
Why is everyone such jerks on the computer.I made a post and ask for thoughts,not smart a$% responses.It was a actual post,looking for actual responses.For everyone who gave a answer that was resonable thanks.For the rest,thanks you also.I can tell you all need a little love to be sent your way.But to be real why do posters on sites like this and others always attack each other.I just dont get it.I have been posting for years on Reds and UK BB sites and have seen this happen all the time,I just dont understand it.If it makes you feel big well more power to ya.But I just think these boards would be a mush better place to converse if all this attacking other posters post crap would stop.If you disagree say it in a respectful manner not all this bull crap you guys do it with.
I guess it part of the up bringing of a person.The new generation is a step behind the others in morals and how to treat other humans kindly.Well back to Reds baseball.I thin the moves would help and I believe LoDuca is worth 4mil.a year.Alos I stated above that the moves I posted above were probably not going to happen.I was just having fun yoiu guess need to try it sometime thanks.

mlbfan30
11-10-2007, 02:58 AM
having a ton of pitching doesn't help
having great pitching helps
The Reds could use some pitching, but not average guys like they seem to always get. There is no SP in free agency that's worth it, and only a couple relievers that are worth it.
That means a trade is the only way to actually improve our pitching enough to make a real difference, and that means going after guys like Santana/Bedard/Kazmir/Peavy... etc who are dominate.
Every team "has" pitching but the quality is what matters, not quantity.
Cabrera isn't worth it because of the prospects and cost it would need to obtain him.... what's better? Giving up Bailey/EE/Hamilton for 2 years of Cabrera at 15+M or getting Arod for 30M? Is Bailey/EE/Hamilton worth more 15M? that's an easy answer

mlbfan30
11-10-2007, 03:09 AM
As for Lo Duca.... it makes no sense....
Ross makes 2.5M next year and he doesn't really have any trade value because of how bad he did offensivley.
Lo Duca would make 4M? so that's 6.5M for Catcher..... the starter Duca and backup Ross
Lo Duca had an OPS+ of 80 last year and has OPS+ of 99 in his career. He is basically an average hitter at best who is also 36 for 2008.
Ross had an OPS+ of 68 last year, and 130 in 2006. His BABIP suggests he was very unlucky. I'm not saying he was good, but comparative to Lo Duca he isn't 1.5M worse.
Ross+ Duca is not worth 6.5M no matter what.
Lo Duca and a 500k backup might be alright, but there is no way we can just trade away Ross, and there is no backup ready for MLB in the minors

tripleaaaron
11-10-2007, 04:14 AM
I would absolutely not pull the trigger on that miggy trade I'd rather have BP and EdE than Miggy alone, especially since acquiring his salary (in relation to the two aboves combined salaries) would mean less money to shore up our area of need, Pitching. Also giving up two solid prospects of obvious said need would only put us further in the hole. We tried the "spend all of our money on offense" tactic once before, and we are still waiting for the club to turn around. Pitching gets us to the playoffs, and furthermore, wins championships.

Redhook
11-10-2007, 09:28 AM
I've been disappointed with the Reds for years now. However, I'm not disappointed so far this off season. I didn't expect them to do anything yet.

I do anticipate/hope the Reds make one big trade for a very good starting pitcher. I don't think Wayne has it in him to make more than one big trade. Plus, there might not be enough chips to trade for 2 big names.

Trading for Cabrera doesn't make much sense to me. We need to spend the big money on pitching, not hitting. Plus, we have a pretty good lineup and a poor man's Cabrera already (EE).

If I'm Wayne, I target Bedard. I'd offer Hamilton or Votto and Bailey or Cueto. Their choice. I'd throw in an extra minor leaguer if they wanted too. Would that be enough? I'm not sure, but I think it'd be close. The Reds would certainly be giving up a lot, but I believe it'd be worth it.

If that trade happened, I wouldn't anticipate another happening except maybe JR. being traded. It's time for him to go.

AmarilloRed
11-10-2007, 09:56 AM
It has been suggested that the Orioles have enough starters and are looking for everyday position players. Two or three major-league ready position players should land us Bedard.

NorrisHopper30
11-10-2007, 09:59 AM
Am I the only one here that would hate to see Lo Duca in a Red's uni? He does nothing defensively and only hits for average offensively and he'd definitely want some $$$

AmarilloRed
11-10-2007, 10:11 AM
As for free agents, teams can begin talking money with free agents other than their own next week. Wayne Krivsky said the Reds had contacted some free agents already.

I see their greatest need as a veteran starter. But beyond Carlos Silva, I don't see a lot of guys I'd throw money at. Silva's not Cy Young, but his numbers -- 13-14, 4.19 ERA -- are about as good as it gets on this year's list.

Josh Fogg (10-9, 4.94 ERA) and Livan Hernandez (11-11, 4.93) might be worth a look. You could hope Jeff Weaver (7-13, 6.20), Matt Clement (5-5, 6.61) or Jon Lieber (3-6, 4.73) have a comeback year.

But a trade may be the best route for finding a starter.

posted by John Fay at 3:59 PM

It seems newsworthy that Wayne Krivsky has talked to several free agents already, so I thought I would mention it here.

fadetoblack2880
11-10-2007, 10:13 AM
Am I the only one here that would hate to see Lo Duca in a Red's uni? He does nothing defensively and only hits for average offensively and he'd definitely want some $$$

I don't see a need for Lo Duca. He really doesn't bring much more to Cincinnati other than a higher salary.

mroby85
11-10-2007, 10:25 AM
A. Where is Jon Coutlangus?

B. Paul Lo Duca is NOT worth $4 million when we have David Ross for 2 million. Ross is better defensively and about the same offensively.

C. Instead of some of the prospects you mentioned, we should try to move Matt Maloney while his value is high, and because he doesn't fit in with GABP.

D. Most of those moves are best-case scenarios and therefore unrealistic...


Paul Lo Duca hit about 70 points higher than david ross, and i would consider that to be substantially better offensively. I haven't heard a lot about his defense, but i don't think he's considered one of the worst in the league. he also hit 318 two seasons ago, and is a career .288 hitter. Personally i wouldn't find it to be a bad signing. You can't put the two salaries of him and ross together simply because you made a mistake signing ross, and say that it's 6.5 in your catcher slot. It is 6.5 to your catchers, but if you made such a bad signing as they did with ross, it needs to be fixed.

kaldaniels
11-10-2007, 10:51 AM
Why is everyone such jerks on the computer.I made a post and ask for thoughts,not smart a$% responses.It was a actual post,looking for actual responses.For everyone who gave a answer that was resonable thanks.For the rest,thanks you also.I can tell you all need a little love to be sent your way.But to be real why do posters on sites like this and others always attack each other.I just dont get it.I have been posting for years on Reds and UK BB sites and have seen this happen all the time,I just dont understand it.If it makes you feel big well more power to ya.But I just think these boards would be a mush better place to converse if all this attacking other posters post crap would stop.If you disagree say it in a respectful manner not all this bull crap you guys do it with.
I guess it part of the up bringing of a person.The new generation is a step behind the others in morals and how to treat other humans kindly.Well back to Reds baseball.I thin the moves would help and I believe LoDuca is worth 4mil.a year.Alos I stated above that the moves I posted above were probably not going to happen.I was just having fun yoiu guess need to try it sometime thanks.

I'll tell you why I strongly object to your post. Because you entitled your post "Very disappointed in the Reds". When I hear the words disappointed I take it as "the Reds have let you down". If you had started a thread entitled "My plan for the Reds"...I would have read what you had to say and move on. However, I see the title of the thread that you wrote I went to take a look...and you know the rest. You headline your post for all the world to see that you are unhappy with the Reds lack of deals/tranactions at the winter meetings and frankly, I was just sticking up for the front office in this case. I am just being straight with you...I took the title of your thread as a shot at the team.

hippie07
11-10-2007, 11:23 AM
AmarilloRed - thanks for your post - it's nice to hear a rumbling that Wayne is in fact in contact w/ some FAs - hopefully that's an indication of what I hoped might be the case, which is that Wayne is sticking his hands in alot of cookie jars, but the media is either not catching wind of it, or doesn't really care. Hopefullly, that's why we've not heard alot from mlbtraderumors and other sites about the Reds.... I dunno though.

I don't think Cabrera is a must have, but I would like to see the Reds land an excellent RH bat this offseason, though. [Not a Conine type but an excellent RH bat] Any ideas who they should go after either in FA or in trade?

That being said, It's no secret that pitching is our top priority. However, that's why I'm so confused by all the resistance to trading Bruce. Yes, there's no doubt he's going to be a star.. the next KGJ, or whatever, and there's no doubt it will hurt like hades when he's ripping the cover off the ball for some other team .... but think of the return we could get for him. I mean, we already have enough LH outfielders for the next couple years, but Bruce could possibly land us a pitcher that could put us over the top. My suggestion is Bruce + a pitching prospect (Maloney?) could land us Kazmir or a comparable pitcher in a Hanley for Beckett type deal.

Then we go after one of the big guys Bedard/Santana/Peavey and look what we have left to offer for them (Hamilton, Cueto, Bailey, Votto, EdE, Stubbs, Wood, etc). I'd say Cueto, Bailey, and Votto or EdE gets it done for almost any of them.

The result would be that we lose none of our starting position players (with the possible exception of EdE) and we gain the best starting rotation in all of baseball:

Bedard/Santana/Peavey
Harang
Kazmir
Arroyo
???????

I dont think we should trade both Hamilton and Bruce this offseason because when Griff leaves I'd like to see one of them take over right field - but it doesn't bother me at all to lose both Cueto and Bailey when we're getting great pitching in return.

Couple this w/ some FA bullpen acquisitions and I don't know, we could be talking about a playoff caliber team THIS year, even w/o a RH bat, but add that bat and I think we're golden!!!

durl
11-10-2007, 01:07 PM
It's my opinion that the Reds don't need to trade for position players unless they would end up being used in another trade for pitching. The Reds have a good core of young, inexpensive talent at the plate.

Pitching is what the Reds need. Every trade or acquisition needs to be done with the aim of improving the pitching staff.

gedred69
11-10-2007, 01:29 PM
Am I the only one here that would hate to see Lo Duca in a Red's uni? He does nothing defensively and only hits for average offensively and he'd definitely want some $$$

I for one, agree. Too bad Ross can't hit like Valentin, or Valentin catch like Ross.

Doro
11-10-2007, 03:17 PM
ha this isnt a baseball sim.... its not that easy

Vada Pinson Fan
11-10-2007, 08:01 PM
If you guys have been reading several websites lately, the writers are saying that teams aren't willing to trade their young, inexpensive talent. For payroll challenged teams, which would seem to include the Reds, trades for major league pitching must be acquired from the 5 year players up to the veterans on the Reds.

I just don't mortgage the future of the Reds by trading Votto, Bruce, Bailey or Cueto and probably not Matt Maloney. Reds fans have never responded the way Cubs and Cardinals fans have (looking just at this division) in terms of almost season-long sellouts and 3,000,000+ home attendance. The Big Red Machine era produced under 2,700,000 fans each and every year of their existence.

This is part of the reason (current attendance comparisons) Castellini and company cannot afford to bring in Miguel Cabrera, et al, with the veterans we already have on the payroll starting with Dunn's $13mil. on down. For this reason I'd be shocked to see a big bat come to Cincinnati via trade or otherwise this off-season. If it does happen- Castellini wants to win badly and is making a statement!

If the Reds (Krivsky) can acquire a top starter (Bedard, Kazmir,Santana-I know I'm dreaming concerning Santana as a Red) and a top closer, I would be thrilled going into 2008!

Best Wishes,
Vada Pinson Fan