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View Full Version : The Tim Tebow Doesn't Deserve The Heisman Thread



MaineRed
11-17-2007, 03:52 PM
I'm all ears.

First QB in history to rush and pass for over 20 TDs in a season. 26 passing, 20 rushing. By comparison Vince Young went for 26-12 his final year. And Tebow has 2 games left.

I look around and see very few canidates. Darren McFadden maybe? Jason Whitlock says there are only 3 real candidates:

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/7449908?MSNHPHMA

Dixon seems to be out. I don't see how you can miss the last 3 games of the season and get the Heisman. The QBs at Mizzou, Daniels and the kid from Kansas have a shot but if one is to win they need to play two of their better games next week and in the Big 12 title game. And it will be tough to catch Tebow who has passing numbers that are on par with the two. The huge edge with the rushing TDs seems to give Tebow the edge.


Florida has 3 losses but is still number 12 in the BCS standings and did it against one of the tougher schedules in America. Tebow has had a couple of stinkers. Show me someone who hasn't.

KronoRed
11-17-2007, 03:55 PM
Sophomores don't win the Heisman and players from teams that are not in the NC hunt don't win the Heisman.

MaineRed
11-17-2007, 04:06 PM
Can you identify some of those players Krono? Players who are Heisman worthy and in the title hunt I mean.

MWM
11-17-2007, 04:13 PM
to me, Dennis Dixon has been the most outstanding player this year and deserves the Heisman. He's played the best in the biggest games. and even if he does miss the last 2 games, unless someone else steps up and earns it, I say it goes to him. Tebow is a good player, but I think he's a bit over-rated. I'm not one who puts too much emphasis on statistics when it comes to college football.

But I do place emphasis on performance in big games, and in the tougher games Florida has played this year, Tebow has been very average. A lot of his stats have been run up against the likes of Western Kentucky, Troy, and Florida Atlantic. Not to say they don't count, but when we're talking about the Heisman, I think big game performance is critical. And Dixon stepped up big in the biggest games they played this year.

If Kansas' QB steps up in the next few weeks, he should definitely be in the race.

WMR
11-17-2007, 04:14 PM
He's definitely missing the next 2 games. He has a torn ACL.

KronoRed
11-17-2007, 04:23 PM
But I do place emphasis on performance in big games, and in the tougher games Florida has played this year, Tebow has been very average.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183484
Going to have to disagree here, Florida's 3 defeats this year can be placed solely on a porous D, Tebow played very well in 2 of them, he was only average IMO in the Georgia game when he was playing with a bad shoulder, is that worse then Dixon missing games with an injury?

Anyway Tebow won't get it.

MaineRed
11-17-2007, 04:30 PM
Anyone who wins the Heisman is going to be able to say that a lot of his stats were run up against cupcakes. Just the way it is.

MWM
11-17-2007, 04:30 PM
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183484
Going to have to disagree here, Florida's 3 defeats this year can be placed solely on a porous D, Tebow played very well in 2 of them, he was only average IMO in the Georgia game when he was playing with a bad shoulder, is that worse then Dixon missing games with an injury?

Anyway Tebow won't get it.

I didn't say anything about placing blame for losses. But he didn't play especially well in several of the big conference games. He might not have played poorly, but he didn't put up Heisman type of performances in any big game this year, IMO. That's what I look for. Did that player really distinguish himself in important games against top opponents. Not once against one of the top 3 teams they played did he come out and dazzle you with his performance. And I've watched Tebow play several times this year and I don't think he's Heisman worthy. He's good, but not Heisman good. At least that's my opinion.

traderumor
11-17-2007, 04:39 PM
Like the National Championship Game will likely end up, this is a win by default type of year. The Heisman winner will win by default rather than by winning the award with a clearly outstanding season. Tebow would be the lamest candidate since Eric Crouch.

MWM
11-17-2007, 04:43 PM
For the record, only 1 of Tebow's running TDs this year have been more than 10 yards. The majority of them have been 3 yards or less. So I don't see the # of rushing TDs stat as anything showing some kind of outstanding performance. that just means they call his number down on the goal line instad of RBs.

I have nothing againt Tebow. I have no axe to grind and don't care either way about Florida or Tebow, so it's not like I've got some kind of bias here. But I do take issue when players benefit from a lot of hype. Tebow is really good, but he's been incredibly hyped since last year, so he's automatically going to be placed higher than he should be. It's not personal, but I just don't think he's been incredibly outstanding when I've watched him this year.

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 04:59 PM
He's good, but not Heisman good. At least that's my opinion.

Let's get this out of the way from the get-go. I have a bias. Everyone knows it.

Tebow didn't lose the LSU game. A late Kestahn Moore fumble tied that one up. As Krono mentioned, Florida's D collapsed down the stretch.

Tebow had 225 yards of offense and was responsible for 3 touchdowns.

He was good, but not great.

Auburn: Tebow didn't lose the Auburn game. Another stellar defensive performance turned in by the Florida D.

Tebow turned in 276 yards of total offense and contributed 2 TD's.

Georgia: 236 passing yards, -15 rushing. 3 touchdowns total.

Bad shoulder, Bad O-line. It was his worst game, no question. Florida's D, and Knowshon Moreno helped. (He's awesome by the way. If you haven't watched him play you should try to check him out some time.)

Tennessee: 360, 4 TD's

Good, not great numbers in the losses. The D struggled mightily in all of them.

The other SEC teams

Kentucky: 334 yards Offense, 5 TD's

Vandy: (Who, at the time, had one of the best D's in the SEC statistically believe it or not) 316, 5 TD's

South Carolina: 424, 7 TD's. They have a terrible Defense.

Ole Miss: 427, 4 TD's. Another bad D.


I'm not going to go into the other teams. I think everyone knows how good (or the opposite of good) they were.


If Tebow's not Heisman good, who is?

I think Dixon had it all tied up, but I don't know if you can give it to a guy that's going to miss his last three games.

Are Tebow's good but not great games worst than Dixon's missed games. I don't know.

I think it's Tebow's to lose right now, and it may be because of a fairly weak Heisman class, but I'm not going to blame Tebow for that. The guy's a TD machine that's built like a tank. He can throw it just as well as he can run it. Sophomore or not, I think the award's his right now.

Unless someone's got a better candidate for me? :confused:

MWM
11-17-2007, 05:13 PM
Why do people keep coming back to "he's not to blame" or "he didn't lose the game." No one has made such a claim. I certainly don't think Tebow is to blame for he Fl losses.

Again, you're coming back to statstics. I've watched Tebow play about 4 times this year and nothing about his performance in those games shouts, "what an outstanding player." # of TDs scored does nothing for me when a high percentage of them are from 3 yards an in.

It's really nothing personal. I've watched Dennis Dixon play, and he's been nothing short of outstanding. Look what happened when he left the game on Thursday. It's just my opinion. Others can disagree.

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 05:24 PM
The Mizzou QB's no joke either.

And I agree Dixon's outstanding, but can you give it to a guy that misses his last three games? The award was all his until the injury.

And I am impressed with TD's, I don't care where they're scored from. When a running back wins the Heisman does anyone say, "Yeah, but a lot of his touchdowns came from within 5 yards?"

I don't think Tebow needs to apologize for when they tell him to run. Should he request they hand off to fumble-prone Kestahn Moore?

Again, I think if Tebow wins it, it will be in large part to the weak Heisman class. He shouldn't apologize for that either.

WMR
11-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I think it should still go to Dixon. He was amazing this year.

MWM
11-17-2007, 05:44 PM
And I am impressed with TD's, I don't care where they're scored from. When a running back wins the Heisman does anyone say, "Yeah, but a lot of his touchdowns came from within 5 yards?"

If a big part of the case for that person's worthiness for the award is the number of TDs they score, then yes, I would bring it up. And for me, a 3 yard run is a 3 yard run. I don't sit back in awe by someone who plows it in from 3 yards out. Sure, it puts points on the board, but it's hardly something you watch and think the player doing it is something special. So you're correct, I don't see 3 yard TDs as a great accomplishment on the football field, regardless of whether it's Tim Tebow or my favorit player of all time.

When I watched Reggie Bush a couple of years, ago, I knew I was watching a special player. a few 3 yard TDs here and there would have made no difference. I'm more impressed by the 30 yard run that gets them to the 3 to begin with.


I don't think Tebow needs to apologize for when they tell him to run. Should he request they hand off to fumble-prone Kestahn Moore?

I knew what I said owuld be entirely misrepresented by our resident Gator fans. You're completely misrepresenting the points I was making. No one blaming Tebow for anything. No one is saying he's lost games. No is saying he should apologize short runs. He did what he needed to do. My point is simply that when these are the things that are brought forth for evidence of Heisman worthiness, I think the proper context needs to be discussed.

Dixon played in 10 games. He played in the Big House at Michigan. He played in a big game against Cal. He played against USC, and destroyed and undefeated Arizona State team. Missing the last 2 games of the year is a technicality and I don't think it diminishes his Heisman worthiness. I don't think missing a couple of games should propel someone whose accomplishments don't measure up ahead of him. If he missed half the season, that's another story.

MaineRed
11-17-2007, 07:02 PM
For the record, only 1 of Tebow's running TDs this year have been more than 10 yards. The majority of them have been 3 yards or less. So I don't see the # of rushing TDs stat as anything showing some kind of outstanding performance. that just means they call his number down on the goal line instad of RBs.


For the record, no SEC player and that includes running backs has rushed for as many TDs as Tebow has this year.

It is more than just calling his number. And about the only reason they are ever near the goal line is because of Tebow.

So MWM, you see only one Heisman candidate this year?

traderumor
11-17-2007, 07:24 PM
If a big part of the case for that person's worthiness for the award is the number of TDs they score, then yes, I would bring it up. And for me, a 3 yard run is a 3 yard run. I don't sit back in awe by someone who plows it in from 3 yards out. Sure, it puts points on the board, but it's hardly something you watch and think the player doing it is something special. So you're correct, I don't see 3 yard TDs as a great accomplishment on the football field, regardless of whether it's Tim Tebow or my favorit player of all time.

Great point. Made me think of giving Pete Johnson the two Heisman's instead of Archie.

MaineRed
11-17-2007, 07:29 PM
If scoring TDs from 3 yards out was THAT easy you would think someone in the history of the SEC would have done it before Tebow.

And you would think if his act is so pedestrian that someone in history would have done the 20/20 thing before.

Hardly something special? I couldn't disagree more. 46 TDs is darn impressive.

Puffy
11-17-2007, 07:48 PM
As much as I hate to say it, with Dixon now out, its Tebow's to lose. Maybe Daniel from Mizzou can make a late charge with great games against Kansas and then OU. Maybe Slaton goes hog wild against Cincy and then UConn.

But I think its Tebow. He's over-hyped, but he's perfect for Urban Meyer's offense.

traderumor
11-17-2007, 07:51 PM
If scoring TDs from 3 yards out was THAT easy you would think someone in the history of the SEC would have done it before Tebow.

And you would think if his act is so pedestrian that someone in history would have done the 20/20 thing before.

Hardly something special? I couldn't disagree more. 46 TDs is darn impressive.The point is that it is not a stat that says greatness if you understand why that occurred.

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 07:56 PM
Maybe we should discuss what it takes to win the Heisman.

I read "Heisman-worthiness" earlier, but to you, what is Heisman worthy?

What does the Heisman mean to you?

MaineRed
11-17-2007, 08:00 PM
So who has stats that say greatness? The ole eye test is fine but you can't think all these voters are watching McFadden, Daniels, Kansas, Dixon and all these other guys every week. They are going to go largely on numbers especially when the numbers are impressive, I don't care how you slice it. He has done two things that nobody has ever done. Think of all the great SEC running backs. None of them ever scored 20 rushing TDs. The fact that his number gets called doesn't hold water because it is nothing short of laughable to believe that guys like Hershel Walker and plenty of others weren't having their number called. When your passing stats are just as good as everyone else sans a few guys who are pure pocket passers it is hard for voters to ignore that.

I'm cool with hearing folks opinions but the thread was meant more towards what voters will think. I'm sure some voters will have the same feelings as some of the knocks thrown Tebow's way in this thread but you can't expect the majority of voters to look at Tebow's numbers and say they aren't exciting because of how they were gained.

I just can't believe this is so easy to do that nobody else has ever been in a situation where they could pull it off. Does anyone have an explanation for that?

Fil3232
11-17-2007, 08:06 PM
I agree with others who have said it's Tebow's to lose. For a true sophomore, he's not overhyped. He's legitimately one of the 5 best players in college football. Easy.

Dixon can't win it essentially missing three games.

The guy who has a shot is Todd Reesing from Kansas. If he plays well and Kansas runs the table through the Big 12, he has a legit claim. His stats thus far have been amassed against a pretty weak schedule, so it will be very interesting to watch he and the Jayhawks play Missouri (and then possibly Oklahoma).

If Todd Reesing wins it, would that be the most off the radar winner?

MWM
11-17-2007, 09:30 PM
When I think of Heisman, I think of Reggie Bush from two years ago. IMO, he would win the Heisman over anyone going back to Barry Sanders in 1988. Unfortunately, the Heisman has become more like an MVP trophy with the QBs from the top teams alwasy getting a lot of the votes. 6 of the last 7 have been QBs from either National Champion teams, or at least top 5 teams. When I think of Heisman I think of someone who consistently puts up rare performances in big games, or someone who's just so spectacular that they deserve regardless of who they play for. Carson Palmer in 2002 was just awesome. I watched him several times and it was clear we were watching someone extraordinary. The same for Bush. Danny Wuerffel in 1996 is another example. That guy would just shred defenses like few QBs I've ever seen.

Sure, not every year produces someone like that, but most years do. It's disappointing to me if it becomes about "player X scored a lot of TDs, so he must be in contention." The Heisman has alwasy been different, and that's what akes it special. Unfortunately, it's slowly becoming an MVP trophy. I fully admit it's just my subjective opinion, but from what I've seen of Tebow, I don't hold him in the same esteem as I do some of the other guys I've seen this year, regardless of how impressive his stats are. And yes, I do think accomplishments that are stat based should be contextualized. This isn't a personal thing with Tebow. He's got a great shot at the award next year.

Playing in 10 games is enough for the Heisman, IMO. What abou teams that only play 10 or 11 games. Should they not be considered in favor of guys who play in 12 or 13 games?

LoganBuck
11-17-2007, 09:57 PM
When I think of a Heisman trophy winner, I think of players who rise to the occasion, and on occasion will their teams to wins. They put up individual performances that make you say wow. Troy Smith, Charles Woodson, Eddie George, Danny Wuerffel, Carson Palmer, and Reggie Bush did things that made you say wow. Pat White, Dennis Dixon, and Todd Reesing are impressing me. However I am not sure that any of them have the wow factor. Tebow strikes me as a stat accumulator this season, a darn good player, but Heisman worthy? A QB needs to make a few exceptional performances in games against good opponents to win it. I haven't seen that individual performance from Tebow yet, to carry his team to a win. He sure tried against LSU, but he came up short.

MWM
11-17-2007, 10:27 PM
BTW, I'm not suggesting the way I look at the Heisman is the only right way. There's no one right or wrong answer. I can see the case ofr Tebow. I see it differently, but it's not like I don't think a good case can be made for him. It's all subjective and everyone looks for something differently.

MWM
11-17-2007, 11:27 PM
Speaking of next year's Heisman, it should be pretty good race between Tebow and Chris Wells, and maybe even Noel Devine at WVU. If McFadden comes back, he'll be right up there as well, but I worry his team won't be good enough for teams not to just line up to stop him. If Emmanuel Moody at USC is allowed to be the full time back next year, he'll be in the picture.

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 11:43 PM
If Emmanuel Moody at USC is allowed to be the full time back next year, he'll be in the picture.

Emmanuel Moody transferred to Florida. He'll be our starter next year.

Gonna be stacked.:beerme:

guttle11
11-17-2007, 11:45 PM
Speaking of next year's Heisman, it should be pretty good race between Tebow and Chris Wells, and maybe even Noel Devine at WVU. If McFadden comes back, he'll be right up there as well, but I worry his team won't be good enough for teams not to just line up to stop him. If Emmanuel Moody at USC is allowed to be the full time back next year, he'll be in the picture.

Knowshawn Moreno at Georgia and Juice Williams could be there as well.

As far as this year goes, if McFadden has a big game and Arkansas beats LSU next week, he will win. If he has a big game and they lose close, he'll be right near the top.

KronoRed
11-17-2007, 11:46 PM
Emmanuel Moody transferred to Florida. He'll be our starter next year.

Gonna be stacked.:beerme:

A real freaking running back.:D

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 11:50 PM
A real freaking running back.:D

Sweet Ciatrick Faison's Ghost! A real RB! 'Bout time.

MWM
11-17-2007, 11:53 PM
Well, Moody could hurt Tebow's chances as the two of them could split the vote. Hmmm, I was totally unaware he had transferred. I must have asleep at the wheel.

Gainesville Red
11-17-2007, 11:56 PM
Nah, we'll do the Leinart one year, Bush the next thing.:D

MWM
11-17-2007, 11:56 PM
Nah, we'll do the Leinart one year, Bush the next thing.:D

Could be. I'm not sure what their defense will be like, but that offense could be scary good.

Gainesville Red
11-18-2007, 12:10 AM
Could be. I'm not sure what their defense will be like, but that offense could be scary good.

Depends how long Harvin sticks around.

Defense should be coming around. They've been good and bad all year. Just really young. Lost all the major pieces in the draft last year.

But we'll see on the D.

Either way, you're right, O should be scary good. Gotta keep Tebow healthy. He takes a beating. A solid running back should help with that.

MaineRed
11-18-2007, 08:46 AM
Outside of Darren McFadden (IF, IF and IF) does anyone have any candidates who deserve this more than Tebow?

If you don't like Tebow that is fine but it would be helpful for such a discussion if there was actually SOMEBODY that you did like. There are a lot of comments from people who obviously don't miss any Florida possessions who just don't see Timmy T as Heisman worthy.

Who is? Not handing out the award is not an option.

WMR
11-18-2007, 09:00 AM
Dennis Dixon. Missing the last 3 games isn't a deal-breaker, IMO.

OnBaseMachine
11-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Speaking of next year's Heisman, it should be pretty good race between Tebow and Chris Wells, and maybe even Noel Devine at WVU. If McFadden comes back, he'll be right up there as well, but I worry his team won't be good enough for teams not to just line up to stop him. If Emmanuel Moody at USC is allowed to be the full time back next year, he'll be in the picture.

Moody transferred, but I don't see him as a Heisman back no matter who he plays for. Stafon Johnson from SC could be a Heisman back if he is the fulltime starter next year, which is doubtful considering the unreal depth at RB.

Desean Jackson and Jonathon Stewart could be candidates if they decide to return for their senior seasons. Noel Devine from West Virginia will be a candidate. Wells from OSU. And Tebow.

Gainesville Red
11-18-2007, 01:18 PM
Yeah, I don't see Moody as a candidate either. Honestly I don't see UF's O-Line as being that great next year. Certainly the weakest link on the O.

Devine's no joke, he's gonna be great.

BuckeyeRed27
11-18-2007, 01:25 PM
I still think Dixon should win it as well. In fact missing time in a way helps his case. It's kind of like when Steve Nash won the MVP a couple years ago. When he is out you see how much his team misses him.

Teabow certainly has the stats and could win it, but I think the losses will keep him from that.

None of the top teams have a top contender except for maybe Pat White. LSU has Dorsey but he isn't going to win it. Kansas and Missouri QBs have the problem of playing for Kansas and Missouri. Beanie Wells should be a contender for it but I guess he'll have to wait until next year. And no one at ASU is really up there.

Boston Red
11-18-2007, 06:20 PM
Pat White will be back next year, too.

Dixon has not shot this year. I agree that it's Tebow's to lose, but only because McFadden's Arkansas team isn't very good. If he goes for 300 in an upset of LSU, I'll switch to McFadden.

Hoosier Red
11-18-2007, 07:48 PM
I vote for doing away with the whole award.
It's all about hype and that's why Tebow would win over Chase Daniel regardless of whether he deserved it or not.
He was on the Heisman Watch list before the season and that's pretty well necessary to win the award.


It infuriates me that writers who vote on the award are too lazy to do their own research to find the best "player who isn't a lineman, doesn't play defense, and isn't a wide receiver or tight end."

Heard someone mention earlier this week that it's too bad there is no outstanding defensive player this year because this is the year that would be a great time to give it to a linebacker or defensive back.

FIRELEFT
11-18-2007, 08:29 PM
Mcfadden has over 200 yards rushing against LSU and it's a tight game,
He wins. if not its Tebow

Caveat Emperor
11-18-2007, 09:07 PM
Pat White will be back next year, too.

Eric Crouch v. 2.0? ;)

MaineRed
11-18-2007, 10:36 PM
Anyone who does any research is going to see that Tebow has put up numbers that are unmatched in the history of college football. I know many don't think that counts for anything but what else is this so called research that isn't being done going to turn up, that Tebow is a fraud or that he is overhyped?

Never understand why people take it out on kids or teams or whatever for being overhyped. People are doing it with the Celtics, want them to lose because people are hyping them. What are people supposed to do, write them off? And I've actually seen very little Tebow hype. Those people who had him in the mix early in the season have turned out to be, RIGHT! What is wrong with that?

jmcclain19
11-19-2007, 04:37 AM
Hesiman Award = Best QB or RB on a Nat'l Championship Contending Team that ESPN does the best job hyping.

It's pretty sad that we're all here arguing over this when automatically 20 other positions on the field don't qualify for "best overall player".

I've honestly lost interest in it the last couple of seasons - look how screwed up the process was.

Matt Ryan was touted all season as a Heisman candidate by ESPN - and his numbers certainly didn't come close to reflecting "best QB" let alone best player for the first two months of the season. Then he comes out on Thursday night against Va Tech and shines in the 4th Quarter and the network seemingly had a collective spasm trying to pat themselves on the back about how right they were.

Now Kansas is undefeated and you hear blowhards now pointing to Todd Reesing as a potential Hesiman candidate. He's a nice player and runs the offense well, but isn't even in the top 25% of players I would consider "best".

Glen Dorsey has been a freak this season - an absolute game changing beast that alters the game every moment he's on the field - yet not a peep about him being a candidate.

MaineRed
11-19-2007, 07:23 AM
Glen Dorsey has been a freak this season - an absolute game changing beast that alters the game every moment he's on the field - yet not a peep about him being a candidate.


Did you read the article I posted at the start of this thread?

Obviously not if you are saying, "not a peep about Dorsey".

bucksfan2
11-19-2007, 09:57 AM
Two things working against Tebow. One is that he is a soph and the second is that Florida has 3 losses.

I find it somewhat ironic that Tebow's 20 rushing and passing TDs are being promoted as a feat that is unheard of. Yet when a QB like Brennan puts up the numbers he does its because he is a system QB. IMO they are one in the same. The best player in the country this season was probably Dixon. He never should have stepped on the field against Arizona because of his knee and I don't know if you can take the Heisman away from him because he didn't play in 2 games.

This year there has been no player to separate himself from the pack. The best players in the country don't allow their team to lose 3 games. IMO if Tebow wins it it may be because of default. Kind of like the way the BCS championship game is shaping itself out to be.

Gainesville Red
11-19-2007, 10:11 AM
Two things working against Tebow. One is that he is a soph and the second is that Florida has 3 losses.


I'll take the 3 loss argument, but what diff. does it make if he's a sophomore?

Isn't it supposed to be the best in the country? (Not saying he is or isn't the best.)

bucksfan2
11-19-2007, 10:39 AM
I'll take the 3 loss argument, but what diff. does it make if he's a sophomore?

Isn't it supposed to be the best in the country? (Not saying he is or isn't the best.)

The Heisman voters don't like to give the tropyh to Sophomores. Whether it is right or not is besides the fact.

Roy Tucker
11-19-2007, 10:39 AM
As much as I hate to say it, with Dixon now out, its Tebow's to lose. Maybe Daniel from Mizzou can make a late charge with great games against Kansas and then OU. Maybe Slaton goes hog wild against Cincy and then UConn.

But I think its Tebow. He's over-hyped, but he's perfect for Urban Meyer's offense.

This is my take as well.

Tebow is a great talent and perfect for Urban Meyer's system (see Alex Smith). He's put up some great numbers, plays QB, plays for a big school, and is my bet to win.

If Dixon were to have played these last 3 games, I'd have picked him to win. He also puts up great numbers and, unlike Tebow, would scare the heck out of me as a defensive coordinator. But I think missing those last 3 games is a big strike against him (unfortunately).

dabvu2498
11-19-2007, 10:57 AM
If they were to win out and he were to play well in those games, how about Todd Reesing, QB, Kansas? 264 ypg, 63% completion, 30-4 TD-INT

WMR
11-19-2007, 11:00 AM
Dab were you cursing your coach on Saturday??? I really thought you guys would keep the pedal to the metal and beat UT.

dabvu2498
11-19-2007, 11:06 AM
Dab were you cursing your coach on Saturday??? I really thought you were would keep the pedal to the metal and beat UT.

Play-calling get a little conservative for you too, Wily? You'd think after 14 years of Vandy-fandom, I'd be used to that stuff by now, but that one stung. With the game Adams had to that point, I would've put it in his hand a few more times, sure.

The roughing the kicker penalty was really the downfall though. So... dumb...

WMR
11-19-2007, 11:12 AM
Play-calling get a little conservative for you too, Wily? You'd think after 14 years of Vandy-fandom, I'd be used to that stuff by now, but that one stung. With the game Adams had to that point, I would've put it in his hand a few more times, sure.

The roughing the kicker penalty was really the downfall though. So... dumb...

Oh yeah that was rough.

I was really pulling for you guys. Of course, I just about always root for Vandy whenever they're not playing UK, but especially against Tennessee.

I would consider it our win of the year if we could beat them this weekend. We haven't beaten them in like 20 years or something... maybe longer than that.

dabvu2498
11-19-2007, 11:29 AM
Oh yeah that was rough.

I was really pulling for you guys. Of course, I just about always root for Vandy whenever they're not playing UK, but especially against Tennessee.

I would consider it our win of the year if we could beat them this weekend. We haven't beaten them in like 20 years or something... maybe longer than that.

22 straight losses to the Vawls for the Cats. Tennessee is very beatable. Ainge is not very good, but he's hard to pressure because he never takes more than a 3 step drop. UT's defense has come around some. With the way Woodson has been playing... ehhhhhh...

MaineRed
11-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Who are some sophomores who should have won the award but didn't because they were sophomores? Can anyone name an example or two?


I find it somewhat ironic that Tebow's 20 rushing and passing TDs are being promoted as a feat that is unheard of. Yet when a QB like Brennan puts up the numbers he does its because he is a system QB. IMO they are one in the same. The best player in the country this season was probably Dixon. He never should have stepped on the field against Arizona because of his knee and I don't know if you can take the Heisman away from him because he didn't play in 2 games.

Trust me, if Tim Tebow was the QB at Hawaii, I wouldn't be pumping him for the Heisman. Hawaii is not Florida. Brennan is playing Fresno, Idaho, Nevada, San Jose State, Utah State and UNLV among other cupcakes. It is a different world than the SEC, Big Ten, Pac 10, Big East, Big 12 or ACC. Its not about being a system QB. Peyton Manning is a system QB. He can't run the wishbone, the spread, the option or the run and shoot. If a coach asked him to they would be insane and Manning would look like a fool. It isn't about that. Nobody has said that in this thread and that is because nobody looks at Brennan as a serious candidate. He numbers are largely affected by who he is playing week after week after week. He is not playing Tennessee, LSU, Georgia, Auburn, Kentucky and Florida State.

Though there is precedent for a Brennan to win. Look at Andre Ware and Ty Detmer.

Now the 3 loss argument. Maybe that matters but don't people see Darren McFadden on the list of Heisman contenders? His team has been irrelevant all season.

I think eliminating guys because of the number of loses is lame. If Dixon had been able to play against Arizona and played well, but they still lost, people would still be using him as the reason Tebow shouldn't win, and him being eliminated from title contention would be no issue.

dabvu2498
11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Trust me, if Tim Tebow was the QB at Hawaii, I wouldn't be pumping him for the Heisman. Hawaii is not Florida. Brennan is playing Fresno, Idaho, Nevada, San Jose State, Utah State and UNLV among other cupcakes.

According the the Friday night ESPN broadcast via the Sagarin ratings, Hawaii has played the easiest schedule in 1-A football. #119 of 119.

MaineRed
11-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Right, at some point level of competition needs to come into play. Same thing with the conversation on how deserving Hawaii is of a BCS berth. And few teams have played the schedule of Florida. Sagarin has them as 9th in SOS.

bucksfan2
11-19-2007, 01:56 PM
Who are some sophomores who should have won the award but didn't because they were sophomores? Can anyone name an example or two?

There are people who though Adrian Peterson should have won the Heisman after his freshman season. The Heisman trophy winners are a group of people who value tradition. I don't think they want another 2 time heisman winner. That does work against Tebow. Whether people are willing to admit that or not Tebow being a soph doesn't help his cause.

LoganBuck
11-19-2007, 02:40 PM
There are people who though Adrian Peterson should have won the Heisman after his freshman season. The Heisman trophy winners are a group of people who value tradition. I don't think they want another 2 time heisman winner. That does work against Tebow. Whether people are willing to admit that or not Tebow being a soph doesn't help his cause.

If they are going to give it to an underclassmen that player needs to be truely exceptional. Think Reggie Bush, Maurice Clarret, Adrian Peterson good. Clarret may have had a shot at it had he not gotten hurt that season.

KronoRed
11-19-2007, 02:42 PM
Rex Grossman in 2001 should have won the award, some voters completely left him off their ballot and when asked why said they thought he would get another shot (because he was a sophomore) and one who couldn't stand Spurrier and didn't want to vote for his player.

Funny enough while watching 2 games on Saturday night I heard in both (Bob Davie in one, I forget the other guy) how Tim Tebow was good but he'll have more opportunities later on and that that Heisman should be for upper class-men.

PU.

dabvu2498
11-19-2007, 03:25 PM
UGa fans will tell you Herschel should have won 3.

Gainesville Red
11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
I was also going to say Peterson.

Another example (and I'm going to get hammered for going UF again) is Grossman.

2001: 259-395 for 3896 yards, 34 touchdowns, 12 interceptions

I remember voters saying Grossman would have other chances, he's still got two years of eligibility.

Voters didn't know that the head ball coach would be departing for D.C. and Ron Zook would be replacing him. He also had a tremendous stable of recievers. Gaffney, Caldwell and Taylor Jacobs were the best trio of receivers on the same field. With Zook's arrival, Caldwell and Gaffney took their ball to play elsewhere.

If a guy deserves it as a Sophomore, give it to him. (Not saying Tebow def. deserves it, just saying I don't care about what year of school a player is in. Never know what's going to happen in the future.)

Gainesville Red
11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
UGa fans will tell you Herschel should have won 3.

And they may be right.

Puffy
11-19-2007, 05:19 PM
Bo Jackson could have won in his sophomore year when he had 1,400+ yards and a 7.7 ypc average. Though the winner was Rozier, who was awesome that year.

Marshall Faulk broke every Freshman rushing record in the NCAA's his fresh year.

Rickey Williams had a huge Sophomore year at Texas. Ron Dayne was huge his first two years at Wisconsin.

MaineRed
11-19-2007, 07:29 PM
I had forgotten about Grossman. He should have got it that year. But ihe did get second and it was very close. Is there really proof other than a voter or two (it is refereced in the link I posted below) that the "voters" were biased against he sophomore? Obviously there is some speculation.

Lets look at that year as an example. If there was no Eric Crouch that season, what would voters have done?

Grossman lost in the 4th closest voting ever so he had A LOT of support. That means there are plenty of voters who will in fact vote for a sophomore. Look how close Grossman came to winning. But what if there was no Crouch? Would voters who had Ken Dorsey 3rd behind Grossman have put him first just because he wasn't a sophomore?

Also came across this interesting comment from Rex at the time:


With the number of college stars who depart early for the NFL these days and the lack of a true standout this college season, it's too bad the electorate couldn't put aside its bias against underclassmen.

To the end, Grossman refused to criticize voters.

"I think so much attention was brought to the fact that I was a sophomore, it probably gave me a few votes here and there," he said. "So it probably all evened out."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/2001/heisman/news/2001/12/08/closer_look/

MWM
11-19-2007, 08:35 PM
Agree Grossman should have won in 2001. IIRC, he threw something like 4 INTs in one of the big gamea and that's what some people used as their reasoning for not voting for him. And while i look at performance in big games, one game should never keep someone from the Heisman.

I also hate the fact that record plays a role. That's silly in college footbal, IMO. The fact that Florida has lost 3 games should not be considered when evaluating his Heisman worthiness. It's never been an MVP award, and it would terrible in my mind for it to become just another MVP award. It should go to the most outstanding player, the way it was intended to.

I also hate that more defensive players aren't in the mix, because some of them are incrdibly outstanding and affect that game just as much as some of the offensive players. It's almost become exclusively a QB award. Heck, in 2001 Julius Peppers might have been the most outstanding player. He was at the very least more outstanding than Crouch, IMO. Dorsey's injuries this year has kept him from dominating in some games, but he should get some consideration.

Danny Serafini
11-20-2007, 02:07 PM
When I was in high school one of the other teams in our league had a RB who was putting up crazy numbers, breaking all sorts of records. He wound up being named All-State, those were the kinds of numbers he was putting up. They were our homecoming opponent (brilliant scheduling, I know) so I went to the game and got to see this star play. Seeing him play he was, shall we say, modestly talented. There wasn't anything special about him. But when you run formations with nine offensive linemen it's hard not to gain a bundle of yards. (That's not an exaggeration either. They simply gave four of the linemen jersey numbers in the 80s and called them tight ends.) The really frustrating part though was that when they lined up in a standard formation their QB was just good enough that you had to respect the pass, which opened up more lanes for him to run through. He wasn't a great player, but he had some skills and a scheme built to use them, and it racked up crazy numbers without crazy talent.

Tebow gives me the same feeling as that team. This isn't to say he's no good, he obviously has some talent. But he's not a star QB, he's a runner with enough arm to keep a defense honest. There's value in that, and it's allowed him to put up some crazy numbers because Florida plays off of that. But in terms of pure QB play, he's not on the same level of Dennis Dixon. Running is good, but you've got to be able to throw the ball, and Dixon is just better.

dabvu2498
11-20-2007, 02:16 PM
Dennis Dixon:
67.7 completion %
20-4 TD-INT
8.41 yards/attempt
161.19 rating

Tim Tebow:
68.5 completion %
26-6 TD-INT
9.93 yards/attempt
177.47 rating

WMR
11-20-2007, 02:27 PM
Dennis Dixon:
67.7 completion %
20-4 TD-INT
8.41 yards/attempt
161.19 rating

Tim Tebow:
68.5 completion %
26-6 TD-INT
9.93 yards/attempt
177.47 rating

What's their respective winning % in games that they started and finished this season?

dabvu2498
11-20-2007, 02:41 PM
What's their respective winning % in games that they started and finished this season?

And what would that have to do with who the "most outstanding college football player" of the year is?

;)

WMR
11-20-2007, 02:43 PM
And what would that have to do with who the "most outstanding college football player" of the year is?

;)

Hauling his team on his back and getting the "W."

:p:

bucksfan2
11-20-2007, 03:05 PM
I think one of the most important Heisman stat for a QB is the W-L total. How many touches to RB's have inside the 5 yard line for Florida compared to Oregon?

MaineRed
11-20-2007, 03:13 PM
It is pure myth that Tebow can't and doesn't throw the ball.

Close to 3,000 yards. He has 40 less yards than the Kansas QB in 71 less attempts. Colt Brennan has thrown for a little more than 300 yards than Tebow with 80 more passes. S

Tebow is 20th in the NCAA in yards. Dennis Dixon is 58th. Tebow has more TDs, a better rating and a better completion %.

A runner with a good arm? He probably has one of the best arms in college football. Dennis Dixon is the runner who just happen to pass.

registerthis
11-20-2007, 03:36 PM
How about they give it to no one?

MaineRed
11-20-2007, 03:50 PM
I think one of the most important Heisman stat for a QB is the W-L total. How many touches to RB's have inside the 5 yard line for Florida compared to Oregon?

What difference does it make? Are you suggesting Dennis Dixon would have been the second guy in the history of college football to rush for 20 and pass for 20 if he got more chances? Its just that easy?

Tebow is the only guy to EVER do it and you guys make it sound like anyone could do it with the carries. Why did Meyer use Tebow last year if Chris Leak could of just done the same thing?

I don't get the undermining of such a record. Nobody in history has ever done it and Tebow isn't the first player to get the majority of goal line carries for his team.

Gainesville Red
11-20-2007, 04:56 PM
The idea that Tebow can throw the ball "just well enough" is a misconception.

His passer efficiency #'s are second in the nation to Sam Bradford, and he's not behind by much. He'll end the season with over 3000 passing yards.

If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Tebow is the all-time Florida High School record holder for passing yards. I know it's not college numbers, but think of all the QB's to come out of Florida. Think about it, the state puts a lot of high school kids into D-1 football every year.

Fil3232
11-20-2007, 07:57 PM
How about some love for Michael Crabtree? He has to fight the 'system' label, but from all accounts I've read, he is absolutely legit. He is putting up stupid numbers this year.

MaineRed
11-20-2007, 08:11 PM
I actually had Crabtree pretty high on my list early in the season and was trying to get him some love. Then he had a stretch of only one TD in four games and had his two worst games of the season in terms of yards. The second half of his season was about a B- after his A+ start.

His numbers are pretty numbing. He'll likely go over 2,000 yards with the bowl game and he has 21 TDs. But only 4 in his last 6 games. He had 17 TDs after the first 6 games. He sort of slowed once teams started to realize they had to stop him.

I think he'll end up on some ballots but be fortunate to get to NY as a finalist.

WMR
11-23-2007, 07:35 PM
Darren McFadden, COME ON DOWNNNNnnnn!!

Gainesville Red
11-23-2007, 07:40 PM
He's damn good. Willed his team to win. What's amazing about McFadden is the absolute lack of anyone on the roster after he and Felix Jones.

OnBaseMachine
11-23-2007, 07:41 PM
I thought Dixon should have won it before he got injured, now I think McFadden should be a lock for it.

Gainesville Red
11-23-2007, 07:44 PM
I'm not going to say anything is a lock during this college football season. What a beautiful mess it's been.

MWM
11-23-2007, 07:47 PM
I'd still vote Dixon. McFadden wouldn't be a bad choice either. He's one helluva football player.

Danny Serafini
11-23-2007, 09:01 PM
If that wasn't a statement game I don't know what is.

WVRed
11-23-2007, 10:02 PM
I'd say McFadden helped his chances tonight.

4 TD's against the number one team in the nation.

Screwball
11-23-2007, 10:07 PM
Darren McFadden, COME ON DOWNNNNnnnn!!

"We got dat wood!"

MWM
11-24-2007, 12:18 AM
I've gotta tell you, I've been watching Hawaii tonight and Colt Brennan is really impressing in a big way. I hear all of this "system QB" stuff, but from what I've seen tonight, he's legitimately a great QB. He's incredibly accurate, has a ton of zip on the ball, does a good job of improvising once a play breaks down, and is fairly mobile. If he doesn't get any consideration at all this year, the voters ought to just put it into the voting requirements that the Heisman winner has to come from one of the BCS conferences.

guttle11
11-24-2007, 12:30 AM
Brennan is not a serious candidate for the Heisman. He's missed all or parts of three games (which is what cost Dixon the award) and he's played against the worst rated schedule in all of FBS.

There's only two real choices this year, Tebow and McFadden. I think McFadden won the award today. He had a great game on a big stage, and lead his team to victory over the #1 team on the road. That's what the Heisman should be all about.

MWM
11-24-2007, 12:33 AM
I'd vote for Brennen. Not over Dixon, but I'd still vote for him. He's an outstanding player, regardless of that stuff. And that's what this award is about.

I hope they go to a BCS bowl so he can show the rest of the country that he can do it against better competition. After watching Hawaii's offense tonight, I'm certain there are alot of D-coordinators from big programs who want no part of preparing to face them. They can score on anyone.

WMR
11-24-2007, 12:38 AM
I think Brennan has earned a trip to NYC, but definitely not the award.

Just a trip to NYC is an unbelievable honor for a school like Hawaii, esp. considering the schedule that they play.

guttle11
11-24-2007, 12:41 AM
I'm not saying he isn't a great player, just that I can't take stats against the worst schedule in the country all that seriously. That doesn't show me that he's worthy of being called the best player in the country, it shows me he's better than some pretty bad teams.

It's not his fault, though. It's the system. He plays who the schedule says he plays and he excels. He's had a great career and ought to get a fair shot to play on Sundays. But there's just not enough of a resume for me to call him the best in the country.

I too hope he gets a chance to show what he and his team can do in a BCS game because of the schedule. It's not fair to him that we really don't know how good he is.

OnBaseMachine
11-24-2007, 01:06 AM
I'd vote for Brennen. Not over Dixon, but I'd still vote for him. He's an outstanding player, regardless of that stuff. And that's what this award is about.

I hope they go to a BCS bowl so he can show the rest of the country that he can do it against better competition. After watching Hawaii's offense tonight, I'm certain there are alot of D-coordinators from big programs who want no part of preparing to face them. They can score on anyone.

Me. I think Hawaii could beat a lot of BCS teams this year. I can't really fault them for their schedule because a lot of teams won't play them. Michigan State paid them 250,000 to back out of their game this year. Texas turned them down also. But they are making an effort to improve their schedule. Next year they open at Florida and also play Oregon State, Washington State, and Cincinnati. They also will host USC in 2010.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 01:08 AM
I'm glad for McFadden's and Arkansas' sake that he rebounded so well from the way he started. 3 fumbles in the first 5:00. (ARK recovered two of them.)

He's fun to watch. That Wildcat formation they employ is tough to stop when he and Felix Jones are on. Either of them can explode from any direction.

Makes you wonder how a school like Arkansas got both of them. Were they not highly touted out of high school?

OnBaseMachine
11-24-2007, 01:14 AM
I'm glad for McFadden's and Arkansas' sake that he rebounded so well from the way he started. 3 fumbles in the first 5:00. (ARK recovered two of them.)

He's fun to watch. That Wildcat formation they employ is tough to stop when he and Felix Jones are on. Either of them can explode from any direction.

Makes you wonder how a school like Arkansas got both of them. Were they not highly touted out of high school?

Darren McFadden was a 4* recruit and the 9th best RB in his class while Felix Jones was a 3* and the number 61 RB in the class.

Fil3232
11-24-2007, 01:49 AM
You know the WAC, including Hawaii and Boise State have beaten a combined 0 BCS schools this year. It's ridiculous. Hawaii and Brennan get fat playing the easiest schedule in the country, then win 1 home game against an equally artificially inflated team and all of a sudden Brennan deserves a Heisman and Hawaii should be playing in a BCS game. Laughable.

Caveat Emperor
11-24-2007, 02:52 AM
You know the WAC, including Hawaii and Boise State have beaten a combined 0 BCS schools this year. It's ridiculous. Hawaii and Brennan get fat playing the easiest schedule in the country, then win 1 home game against an equally artificially inflated team and all of a sudden Brennan deserves a Heisman and Hawaii should be playing in a BCS game. Laughable.

This gets back into the debate from last year Re: Boise State and a national championship.

Answer me this question -- how can Hawaii force a team from a better conference to take a game against them? If they're OK with loading their schedule with cupcakes, that's one thing -- but if they're out there legitimately trying to beef their schedule and getting turned down by the big boys, thats a completely different story.

The BCS schools hold all the keys to the kingdom, and if they want to exclude a program like Hawaii or Boise State, they can. There is really no incentive to ever schedule a good mid-major like them -- if they beat them, its considered a game that a BCS school "should win" and earns them no points, and if they lose to them, its a "coach-killing" loss.

Until conferences are forced to take all comers who want to compete at a higher level or the NCAA sets schedules nationally, the SOS argument will always ring slightly hollow with me. It is what it is, don't punish a team for something it can't completely control.

FIRELEFT
11-24-2007, 11:20 AM
He's damn good. Willed his team to win. What's amazing about McFadden is the absolute lack of anyone on the roster after he and Felix Jones.
Patton Hills will be playing on Sunday's

WVRed
11-24-2007, 12:43 PM
He's damn good. Willed his team to win. What's amazing about McFadden is the absolute lack of anyone on the roster after he and Felix Jones.

Houston Nutt may be one of the most underappreciated coaches in the league working with the talent he has to work with. He is crucified because he cannot win with McFadden and Jones and the whole instance with Mustain and Damian Williams, but the guy gets the most out of all of his talent.

Marcus Monk and Casey Dick were not highly recruited out of high school, yet they are the starting wideout and QB and two of the best players not named McFadden and Jones.

Doesn't help that Nutt has two players who can make the Wild Hogs Formation successful. Anybody else and it would never work.

McFadden is the only player in this years draft that if he is on the board when the Bengals pick, I hope they take him.

Danny Serafini
11-24-2007, 01:48 PM
The problem with Hawaii isn't so much the lack of big names, but the small names they scheduled. They reached into the dregs of I-AA and pulled out Northern Colorado and Charleston Southern. There's no excuse for Hawaii to be scheduling teams like that, and that's why they're taking flack. I understand they're not getting the big boys out there, but they could've brought in a school from the MAC or Sun Belt and at least played someone legit.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 05:45 PM
Posted it in the wrong thread initially.

Tebow TD Count: 2

One on a 20-yard run that followed a 15-yard run.

One on a 50 yard bomb.


It's a shame Kentucky-Tennesse turned into such an overtime barn-burner. Half the country's not watching.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 06:07 PM
Tebow TD Tracker: 3

This of the passing variety.

MWM
11-24-2007, 07:08 PM
Watching Oregon play without Dixon is just more confirmation to me why he should get the trophy. They're a miserable team without him, and possibly the best team in the country with him.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 07:12 PM
Tebow Tracker: 4

6 yd-rush.


And I'm glad MWM doesn't have a Heisman vote.

Caveat Emperor
11-24-2007, 07:44 PM
And I'm glad MWM doesn't have a Heisman vote.

He makes a really valid point -- Dixon was a special player. He won't win, but he should have had he stayed healthy.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 07:49 PM
He makes a really valid point -- Dixon was a special player. He won't win, but he should have had he stayed healthy.

I agree he makes a valid point. Dixon's a special player.

I bleed orange and blue, I'm glad he doesn't have a vote.

At this point I think it's Tebow and McFadden. Stay tuned.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 07:56 PM
One on a 50 yard bomb.



For accuracy's sake, it was 32 yards.

I apologize for being six Red Stripes deep.

OnBaseMachine
11-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Colt Brennan should get an invite. Kid is a great, great QB.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 08:00 PM
Colt Brennan should get an invite. Kid is a great, great QB.

And I'll not disagree with you.

Here's to hoping he gets a fair shot in the NFL. :beerme:

WMR
11-24-2007, 08:05 PM
And I'll not disagree with you.

Here's to hoping he gets a fair shot in the NFL. :beerme:

The Giants need a quarterback.

Gainesville Red
11-24-2007, 08:07 PM
Tebow TD tracker: 5

31 yd Pass to Bubba Caldwell, who picked up the personal foul after promising the Independent Florida Alligator (student newspaper) that he would throw the ball into the stands if he caught a TD in his final game in the swamp.

OnBaseMachine
11-24-2007, 08:25 PM
I think it would be a travesty if Eric Stevenson didn't receive an invite to the Heisman presentation.

MWM
11-24-2007, 10:52 PM
Tebow Tracker: 4

6 yd-rush.


And I'm glad MWM doesn't have a Heisman vote.

Yes, but I'm also not a partisan, either. My opinion on the matter is free from personal bias.

MWM
11-24-2007, 11:02 PM
Ya' know, for me it all boils down to the fact that I'm not enamored at all by the TD stat. It really doesn't mean that much. I view that stat much like I do RBI totals in baseball. It's a team driven stat, but TDs are even moreso the case.

I really don't have anything against Tebow. But I ask myself the question of would I still feel the same about a player if he had 7 TD runs instead of over 20. And I think had Tebow had identical stats as far as yardage goes, but wasn't the guy they called on at the goal line, he'd still be in the conversation but I don't think many would consider him a front runner. Most of his "candidacy" is based on one single statistic, and that's the number of rusing TDs. It's not not the throwing TDs, because other QBs have that as well. So what has made the difference, as far as I can tell, is simply the rushing TDs. And that's not something I put a lot of credence in. I view it very similarily as I did Jerome Bettis the last couple of years in the NFL. He'd have a few hundred yards rushing, but he'd be in the top 10 in TDs. It wasn't because he was doing anything special, it was because he had the ability to plunge it in from a couple of yards.

IMO, if a candidate is truly worthy of the Heisman, he'd still be worthy if you took his TD runs from a few yards out. If you think Tebow is deserving evenn without his few yard rushing TDs, then by all means, you should continue to promote the guy. But if you say that he's not without those TDs, then I'd suggest he's not really Heisman caliber. If the difference is simply a handful of plunges from a few yards out, then that REALLY marginalizes the trophy, IMO. Tebow is a great player and is going to get better. I'm really not trying to take anything away from him. But when the only thing I hear when people refer to him as the Heisman front runner is his TDs, I don't take it quite so seriously. But that's just me. I can think if a single Heisman winner who's accomplishments were based on TDs scored. Yardage is much more important to me.

I still say give it to Dixon. So he missed a couple of games. He still played in 10 of them. His accomplishments in those 10 games are enough for me.

dabvu2498
11-25-2007, 12:22 AM
Yardage is much more important to me.


It's not as if his only carries were goalline situations though.

181 carries 749 yards 4.1 ypc

OnBaseMachine
11-25-2007, 12:23 AM
I think it would be a travesty if Eric Stevenson didn't receive an invite to the Heisman presentation.

You guys ruined it. You were supposed to ask who in the hell is Eric Stevenson? Well, he's my QB for USC in the year 2010 on my USC dynasty on college football 2008 for XBOX 360. He's thrown for 4000 yards and 40 TD's and led me to the Fiesta Bowl NC over Texas. :D

MWM
11-25-2007, 12:41 AM
It's not as if his only carries were goalline situations though.

181 carries 749 yards 4.1 ypc

I knew that and that's quite an accomplishment. My point is that all I'm hearing when people are talking Tebow for Heisman is the 20 TDs both rushing and passing. If people are going to make the case that he should be the Heisman winner, then they should make the case beyond the TDs, because without the 3 yard plunges, he's still have a handful of rushing TDs, but would he still be considered the front runner? (and an aside, there are 95 RBs in the nation with YPC greater than 5 yards per carry. 4.1 YPC isn't anything to write home about.)

Chase Daniel at Missouri has 720 more rush yards and if you combine passing and rushing, he still has 223 more total yards. The difference between the two is the TDs. Daniel has 30 passing to Tebows' 26, with 9 INTs compared to 6 for Tebow. So if we're going on stats, looks like the rushing TDs is what distinguishes the two.

And before Dixon got hurt, he had similar passing yardage with 20 TDs and 4 INTs, and he also had 583 rushing yards and 9 TDs (most of which were also short plunges, with the exception of one 80 yard run and on 32 yard run). The difference is, at the goal line he was handing the ball off most of the time.

MWM
11-25-2007, 01:04 AM
If TDs are important, why aren't we talking at all about Graham Harell from Texas Tech? He has 45 passing TDs and 4 rushing. That's a total of 49. He also has 5,300 passing yards, and completes 73% of his passes. If we're talking purely statistics, his are as impressive as anyone's, including Tebow's. And they do play in a BCS conference, so it's not like he's doing it against nothing but WAC opponents.

If we're going to award the Heisman because his TDs accumulated are so impressive, we better be consistent and start talking about Harrell. He has more yards and TDs than anyone in the country.

Caulcrick from Michigan State averages only 3.9 yards per carry and has only 813 rushing yards this season. But he has 21 TDs, 3rd most in the nation, and most in any major conference. I bring that up only to show that it's possible to accumulate rushing TDs without being a great runner.

Hey, I'm open minded about this. As I've said already, this isn't an MWM against Tebow thing. So if someone wants to convince me that's he the clear choice for Heisman without mentioning his rushing TDs, then go ahead. I'll listen and I'll be open. But if you can't do it without mentioning over a dozen less than 5 yard plunges into the endzone when most other teams are just giving it to the RB (that's why it's not been done before. not because it's such an impressive feat), then I'd suggest you really don't have a great case. There's got to be more to it than that. Go ahead and make the case for why he deserves it over the likes of Chase Daniel or Darren McFadden.

Blimpie
11-25-2007, 10:27 AM
The Giants need a quarterback.Jared Lorenzen just dropped his Big Brutus sandwich.

WMR
11-25-2007, 02:10 PM
Jared Lorenzen just dropped his Big Brutus sandwich.

C'mon, I said QUARTERBACK, not BACK-UP QUARTERBACK. :lol:

MaineRed
11-25-2007, 03:28 PM
A number of quick points;

First of all what happened to the "3 losses kill Tebow" argument when it comes to McFadden? I haven't seen ONE person say that about McFadden. But nearly everyone was saying it about Tebow.

Arkansas obvioulsy has a good offensive line. I keep reading how they have nobody else. They just beat LSU, they've got more than 2 players.

If you want to talk about Graham Harrell, go for it. But Tebow has more TDs (total) than the kid who throws it on EVERY down. And Tebow has played a much tougher schedule in a much tougher league with a HUGE target on his (their) back as national champs. There is nothing to be "consistent" about if you have the kid with the most TDs of anyone at the top of the list. You are really reaching the farther we get into this MWM.
MWM, I don't even know how to respond to the comment that TDs aren't imporant. So I won't. But I love how you tell people they can make the case, just don't mention the SEC record rushing TDs. It laughable. It is like saying make a case for A-Rod as the MVP but don't bring up his stats. I'm glad your thoughts are posted, otherwise I wouldn't be able to convince anyone that someone actually said that.

I think people are overvaluing Dennis Dixon. Oregon also lost their back-up QB in the game yesterday and were down to a true frosh (IIRC). Plus the back-up was a kid named LEAF. I think it is safe to say that Oregon hasn't been chasing blue chip QBs the last couple of years with Dixon at the helm. What team could do ANYTHING with a 3rd string freshman QB? I bet Florida would have lost to FSU last night if they had to go 3 deep at QB. This is the LAST reason Dixon should win the award. Did you guys really expect Oregon to keep sailing with the back-up to Ryan Leaf's brother at QB?

As for last week against Arizona, Oregon wasn't going to stop Arizona from scoring with or without Dixon.

OnBaseMachine
11-25-2007, 03:38 PM
As for last week against Arizona, Oregon wasn't going to stop Arizona from scoring with or without Dixon.

Oregon would have won that game by 10+ points with Dixon. Seven of those points scored by Arizona were off a Brady Leaf interception return for a TD. He also threw a critical INT late in the 4th quarter to put the game away.

MaineRed
11-25-2007, 04:04 PM
Sort of how Dixon threw 2 INTs in the loss to Cal?

And given that Arizona is ahead of Cal in the Pac 10 standings and the fact the game was in Tucson, I'm not sure how you can say Oregon WOULD have won by 10+ points or how you can imply that Dixon was some lock to not throw an INT.

The fact that Dennis Dixon is better than Brady Leaf is not a surprise.

OnBaseMachine
11-25-2007, 04:07 PM
Sort of how Dixon threw 2 INTs in the loss to Cal?

And given that Arizona is ahead of Cal in the Pac 10 standings and the fact the game was in Tucson, I'm not sure how you can say Oregon WOULD have won by 10+ points or how you can imply that Dixon was some lock to not throw an INT.

The fact that Dennis Dixon is better than Brady Leaf is not a surprise.

Well, Oregon moved the ball all over Arizona when Dixon was in the game.

And what the hell does Dixon throwing two INT against Cal have to do with the Arizona game? What the hell? I'm scratching my head on that one.

Gainesville Red
11-25-2007, 04:22 PM
Looks like Tebow played the 2nd half last night with a broken right hand. (Obviously, he's left handed.)

MaineRed
11-25-2007, 04:53 PM
Well, Oregon moved the ball all over Arizona when Dixon was in the game.

And what the hell does Dixon throwing two INT against Cal have to do with the Arizona game? What the hell? I'm scratching my head on that one.

Dixon got hurt in the first quarter and left that game with no more than an 11-8 lead.

It is also a myth that Oregon didn't move the ball when Dixon left. They had over 200 yards rushing even when you take away the 40 yard TD run Dixon had. The back-up QB threw for 163 yards in a little more than 3 quarters.

BTW, INTs per throw for the Arizona game:

Dixon 1 in 8
Leaf 1 in 23

My point on the Cal game was that even Dixon can throw key interceptions in losses. You are playing it off as fact that Arizona would have lost because Leaf threw some key pick. Dixon could have done the same thing, just as he did against Cal when they lost. Dixon is a heckuva a player and perhaps the Heisman front runner without the injury but the kid can and did make the occasional mistake and it is no surefire fact that he was going to play some perfect game against Arizona.

Danny Serafini
11-25-2007, 11:44 PM
First of all what happened to the "3 losses kill Tebow" argument when it comes to McFadden? I haven't seen ONE person say that about McFadden. But nearly everyone was saying it about Tebow.

QBs have always been judged more on wins and losses than any other position. They're in control, so they get the credit when the team wins and the blame when the team loses. That's just a simple fact of life. And with Tebow running the show Florida has lost three games.

MaineRed
11-25-2007, 11:55 PM
You go ahead and call it a fact of life. If you can't look at football as a team sport I don't really know what to say.

What I see is people making up these rules and facts as they go along to fit their story. People were saying you couldn't be in the Heisman race if your team wasn't in the title picture. But now that McFadden would make for a good pick it is only QBs who fall under this fact of life.

For the record Tebow had 8 TDs and 2 INTs in the 3 Florida losses. What a choker.

BTW, can you find one person giving Arkansas QB Casey Dick credit for their 8 wins or even the one win over LSU? It shouldn't be a problem given that fact of life that QBs get the credit for wins and blame for losses.

All I see is people handing the award to McFadden. Shouldn't the credit be going to the QB? Or does this fact of life only apply to Tim Tebow after losses?

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 10:36 AM
You are really blinded by Tebow lust if you think he's the first QB to be judged by wins and losses. Are QBs 100% responsible for a team's win or loss? No, of course not. But there's an old cliche: the QB gets too much credit for the win and too much blame for the loss. RB has always been a numbers position, and QB is as much team play as numbers when it comes to Heisman voting. Do you really think Gino Torretta, Eric Crouch or Jason White won Heismans because they were such fabulous players? They were good QBs on great teams. QBs win Heismans because they're running the show for top-ranked teams. Don't think won-loss record matters to a Heisman voter? Then tell me the last QB to lose three games before the end of balloting and still win the Heisman.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 12:00 PM
Never said he was the first. Just that you are being selective. It is OK for people to say that Arkansas beat LSU, "without a QB" (long way from crediting him with the win) but with Tebow ALL QBs are judged by W-L record. Except Casey Dick I guess.

BTW, when I post, I am posting my feelings, not the feelings of voters who I don't know. Maybe they will fail to vote for Tebow. All I know is how I feel. I don't need voters to validate my opinion, it doesn't change it. To me the discussion of what voters will do is quite different than what they should do.

What they will do doesn't have anything to do with anyone's opinion on who SHOULD win. I'm not here to talk about what the voters will think. There is no doubt in the past they have favored guys from the top teams. But I don't think it is just QBs. How many RBs have won it with four losses? I don't have all the teams records in front of me but I'm pretty sure Ron Dayne, Rashan Salam, Ricky Williams, Eddie George and Reggie Bush all had less than four losses. Those are all the RBs in the last 20 years to have won the award. It works both ways.

bucksfan2
11-26-2007, 12:09 PM
There is little doubt in my mind after watching Arkansas beat LSU that McFadden is the best player in the country. He beat the so called best defesne by doing everything for the offense. I don't know if he was given the call on whether to hand the ball off or not but what he did playing QB was amazing.

As for QB's they do get more credit for when they win and more blame for when they lose. But on offense the ball is in their hands every down. Tebow did have a heck of a season but he did have 3 losses. His TD/INT numbers were good but did he make the big throws? Did he rally his team from behind? Did he make the proper callls? There is a lot more involved than just the TD/INT ratio when debating whether a QB had a good game or not.

WMR
11-26-2007, 12:30 PM
Looks like Tebow played the 2nd half last night with a broken right hand. (Obviously, he's left handed.)

Uh-oh, is this another one of those "BLOODY SOCK" situations developing?

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 12:33 PM
Darren McFadden is the best pro prospect (along with Glenn Dorsey) in college football this year.

Tim Tebow has had the most outstanding college football season this year. It's not even really close.

The Heisman should be Tebow's 10 out of 10 times.

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 01:28 PM
Never said he was the first. Just that you are being selective. It is OK for people to say that Arkansas beat LSU, "without a QB" (long way from crediting him with the win) but with Tebow ALL QBs are judged by W-L record. Except Casey Dick I guess.

BTW, when I post, I am posting my feelings, not the feelings of voters who I don't know. Maybe they will fail to vote for Tebow. All I know is how I feel. I don't need voters to validate my opinion, it doesn't change it. To me the discussion of what voters will do is quite different than what they should do.

What they will do doesn't have anything to do with anyone's opinion on who SHOULD win. I'm not here to talk about what the voters will think. There is no doubt in the past they have favored guys from the top teams. But I don't think it is just QBs. How many RBs have won it with four losses? I don't have all the teams records in front of me but I'm pretty sure Ron Dayne, Rashan Salam, Ricky Williams, Eddie George and Reggie Bush all had less than four losses. Those are all the RBs in the last 20 years to have won the award. It works both ways.

I'm being selective? You're the one who's taking what I wrote and twisting it all around to try and support your candidate. I wrote that "QB is as much team play as numbers" when it comes to voting and determining a QB's worth. You then try and take that and turn it into Casey Dick is a star because his team won, conveniently ignoring the part about numbers. Here's what I wrote: "Are QBs 100% responsible for a team's win or loss? No, of course not." Trying to turn this into a solely won/loss argument, which you are trying to do, doesn't fly, because I never made that statement. QBs are judged on a combination of team play and numbers. Tebow has very nice numbers, but the team play is lacking.

That's cool that you feel Tebow is the best player (though you seem to be taking this personally for some reason). My feeling is that he doesn't pass the eyeball test. Dixon and McFadden are just better players. Dixon made all the players around him better. McFadden is just a supreme talent. And while his Tebow's numbers are impressive, I'm not going to give him a bunch of bonus points for functioning as the team's goal line back instead of handing the ball off. Goal line backs aren't stars, they're guys like Zack Crockett and Leroy Hoard. Obviously they can't throw like Tebow, just saying two yard TD runs don't excite me. It feels like a stat inflater to build hype, like when Charles Woodson won the award as a supposed two-way player because he ran four pass routes a game, or when Ohio St. started tracking "pancakes" as a stat to try and attach a number to Orlando Pace and hype his candidacy.

As far as the RBs you posted, you're actually helping me prove my point. Yes, they played on very good teams, but it didn't matter. Salaam put up ridiculous numbers. George and Bush were simply the best players those years. Williams and Dayne both broke the career rushing record, their teams could've gone 1-10 those years and they still would've won the award. There's no RB on the list that got the award based as much on team play as individual. You can't say that about the QBs.

This isn't to disparage Tebow. He's a very good player. He's just not the best player in the country.

Chip R
11-26-2007, 01:58 PM
The problem with Hawaii isn't so much the lack of big names, but the small names they scheduled. They reached into the dregs of I-AA and pulled out Northern Colorado and Charleston Southern. There's no excuse for Hawaii to be scheduling teams like that, and that's why they're taking flack. I understand they're not getting the big boys out there, but they could've brought in a school from the MAC or Sun Belt and at least played someone legit.


It isn't cheap flying 100 plus people out to Honolulu. I don't know what kind of a guarantee they are giving these teams but it may not be worth it to go out there and play on their field with their refs. Of course it's not like it isn't a beautiful place for a road game. And maybe the bigger schools want to play Hawaii but Hawaii doesn't want to go on the road to play those games. I'm sure it's just as expensive to fly out of Honolulu as it is to fly in. Perhaps a USC can do it but someone like Illinois doesn't want to go all the way out there and maybe Hawaii doesn't want to come to Champaign. I hate to defend them because a friend of mine is a big time Hawaii fan and I like to make fun of their schedule, lack of road games and their officials but they have unique problems.

FIRELEFT
11-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Darren McFadden is the best pro prospect (along with Glenn Dorsey) in college football this year.

Tim Tebow has had the most outstanding college football season this year. It's not even really close.

The Heisman should be Tebow's 10 out of 10 times.
I'm McFadden all the way.
However, if Tebow get's it no problem.
You can not say it's not close it is.
I think Tebow will win and I will not have a problem but it will and should be close

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 02:13 PM
It can't cost any more than flying in Charleston Southern. No doubt Hawaii has unique challenges thanks to their location, but it doesn't excuse some of this scheduling. I'd imagine a typical MAC or Sun Belt school has a bigger athletic budget than Charleston Southern and could handle any cost overruns easier. And scheduling Northern Colorado was just trying to schedule as easy an opponent as possible to put up some gaudy numbers, that program has been a total train wreck since moving to D-I. I can't excuse them for that.

Up until a few years ago the NCAA gave out an enticement to get teams to travel to Hawaii. If you played a nonconference game at Hawaii you were allowed to play 12 games instead of 11, the extra game being a home game that would produce more than enough revenue to cover what you lost on the trip to Hawaii. Now that everyone plays 12 that is gone, and I don't know if the NCAA has come up with anything to replace that.

Fil3232
11-26-2007, 02:20 PM
IMO, here is a good take on the situation:

http://cfn.scout.com/2/705298.html

bucksfan2
11-26-2007, 02:21 PM
It isn't cheap flying 100 plus people out to Honolulu. I don't know what kind of a guarantee they are giving these teams but it may not be worth it to go out there and play on their field with their refs. Of course it's not like it isn't a beautiful place for a road game. And maybe the bigger schools want to play Hawaii but Hawaii doesn't want to go on the road to play those games. I'm sure it's just as expensive to fly out of Honolulu as it is to fly in. Perhaps a USC can do it but someone like Illinois doesn't want to go all the way out there and maybe Hawaii doesn't want to come to Champaign. I hate to defend them because a friend of mine is a big time Hawaii fan and I like to make fun of their schedule, lack of road games and their officials but they have unique problems.

I heard somewhere that Hawaii tried to schedule the big boys this season. They tried to schedule USC but USC wanted nothing of it. What BCS team would want to schedule Hawaii? I mean it is really a lose lose game for the BCS school because Hawaii had a good team this year.

Caveat Emperor
11-26-2007, 02:21 PM
It isn't cheap flying 100 plus people out to Honolulu. I don't know what kind of a guarantee they are giving these teams but it may not be worth it to go out there and play on their field with their refs.

Also have to factor in the tremendous homefield advantage gained when a EST or CST team has their internal clock thown off 5/6 hours by the time change.

Not a lot of teams with bowl or title hopes are eager to kick a game off at midnight local time.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 03:34 PM
USC played AT Hawaii a couple of years ago and beat them 63-17. They also played in LA two years before that and USC won 61-32. USC, a team that has gone on the road to play Auburn, Nebraska, Arkansas and Hawaii the last couple of years is the last team scared of Hawaii.

It was Michigan State who pulled out this year at the last minute, not USC. Not like a win over the Spartans would prove anything.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 03:45 PM
Danny, Tebow has over 800 yards on the season and an average of over 4 yards per carry. Just like when you tried to claim that he can't throw the ball you are wrong when you imply that he is a Leroy Hoard clone, goal line back.

I really don't get why being a freight train while being able to play QB has to be a critism? You treat it like some joke that Florida gives the ball to someone who has the ability to get into the endzone more than anyone in SEC history. I really don't get why that is being held against him?

Defenses know it is coming and they still get bowled over. 22 times.

The other thing I would say about Tebow and the 3 losses is that what other QB in his first year has ever posted the kind of numbers Tebow is while playing for a defending national champion? What Darren McFadden has done this year will be done by someone else next year. What Tebow has done is unmatched and won't be done next year, unless he is the one to do it.

joshnky
11-26-2007, 05:00 PM
What Darren McFadden has done this year will be done by someone else next year. What Tebow has done is unmatched and won't be done next year, unless he is the one to do it.

Vince Young passed for nearly identical numbers and ran for 200 more yards in 40 less carries. 10 fewer rushing TDs but Texas didn't use him as the primary goal-line ball carrier.
McFadden's numbers will be matched again but not every year and seldom in such a high profile situation as his domination of the vaunted LSU D.

I think Tebow is great as well as McFadden. I really don't care who wins the award but I think it will go to McFadden because he delivered a great final game against LSU that will stick in the minds of the voters.

Danny Serafini
11-26-2007, 05:05 PM
It's not a criticism that he can run, there's definite value in that. I'm just don't find him to be as great a runner as you do. Four yards a carry isn't spectacular for a running QB. Let's compare him to Dixon. Dixon is averaging 1.3 more yards per carry. Tebow's longest carry is 25 yards, Dixon has four carries longer than that (80, 50, 39, 32). Dixon has scored more TDs from outside the 10 yard line than Tebow, despite having 13 fewer total. Dixon is a more dangerous runner. Tebow really is more of a short yardage guy. He's not Zack Crockett, but he's not a true breakaway threat either. If you look solely at the 22 TDs, yes that is a very impressive number. But if you look at him all around, he's very good, but not great, at least in my eyes.

OnBaseMachine
11-26-2007, 06:27 PM
I heard somewhere that Hawaii tried to schedule the big boys this season. They tried to schedule USC but USC wanted nothing of it. What BCS team would want to schedule Hawaii? I mean it is really a lose lose game for the BCS school because Hawaii had a good team this year.

USC's schedule was full. Michigan State and Texas backed out on them though.

USC has played a home and home with Hawaii in the last five years and have another scheduled with them in 2010.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 08:45 PM
I don't get the argument AGAINST Tebow that he is his teams goal line back. To me that should be a feather in his cap, not some strike against him.

Vince Young wasn't his teams goal line back because Mack Brown didn't want to get him killed. Meyer doesn't have the same worry because Tebow can take the beating and keep on ticking.

This is why I am so impressed with the rushing TDs. Yes, he is his teams short yardage back but that is because he is capable of it while these other guys mentioned, Dixon, Young, etc, aren't. They would get beat up and their coaches know it. Every coach in the world would love to have a Tebow (in that situation). Why hand the ball off when you have a QB who can pound it in? You don't have to waste time handing it off, there are no problems with the exchange and all that good stuff. I really don't know why it is a critism and I seriously doubt the take would be the same around here if Tim Tebow was a Buckeye and he rung up 51 TDs in the weaker Big Ten.

He can't match the last game McFadden had but for anyone who thinks the season McFadden had is something special, consider:

Ray Rice: 1,612 yards, 17 TD, 5.1 ypc
McFadden: 1,725 yards, 15 TD, 5.7 ypc

And while many want to bring Colt Brennan into the race how about these rushing numbers:

Player A: 2,164 yards, 25 TDs
Player B: 2,127 yards, 23 TDs

Let me guess, they didn't play anyone so they are unworthy? If the records I am looking at are correct, 2,000 yards has only been accomplished 10 times in history. Both of these players have gone against tougher schedules than Brennan and what they have done is more rare than that of the Hawaii QB.

Starting to sound like the award is for the best late season performance on TV.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Here is the take of thebiglead.com


Here’s how our ballot would look with one week left in the regular season:

Tim Tebow, Florida - He’s rushed and passed for at least one score in every game this season. The numbers are staggering: 3,132 yards passing, 29 TDs/6 INTs, 22 rushing TDs. We doubted him for the first half of the season, but then he was tremendous in three consecutive road games against ranked teams. Even though the Gators went 1-2, the defense is what lost those games, because Tebow threw 7 TDs, just one pick, and ran for four TDs. Can’t penalize the guy for not having a D.
Darren McFadden, Arkansas - Too late, buddy. Blame the coach, the offensive scheme, having to share the ball with Felix Jones, whatever. Three games under 100 yards and four games without a score crippled his campaign. The performance against LSU was incredible, though. And yes, he’s the best all-around talent in college football. We really hope he doesn’t go to Atlanta in the draft.
Chase Daniel, Missouri - He’s got moxie, and we like that. Remember how Brad Smith (now doing it all for the Jets) was supposed to be a Heisman candidate? Didn’t happen. Which makes Daniel’s quest all the more fun. Hasn’t had a terrible game this season, with the exception of at Oklahoma, when he tossed two picks and just one score. If he beats Oklahoma and his numbers rock …
Colt Brennan, Hawaii - The bad: two weeks ago at Nevada, Brennan’s backup throws for 386 yards and two scores and the Warriors beat Nevada. The good: last weekend against unbeaten Boise State, Brennan throws for 495 yards and five scores. Can anyone succeed in the system? Yes. Did Brennan put up better stats last year? Yes. So why does he get the nod over Matt Ryan and Andre Woodson? When it’s a tossup, we look to the won/loss record.
Dennis Dixon, Oregon - Cannot penalize a great season because of an unfortunate, late-season injury. But please, none of the, ‘he’s better than Chase and Colt because Oregon got waxed twice without him!’ It doesn’t work like that.

We blindly anticipate the voters will go this way: McFadden, Tebow, Daniel, Dixon, Pat White. This is based on absolutely nothing. It is just a dimestore guess, like those you will read at SI and ESPN this week.

The Big Lead is a really good sports blog, maybe the best on the net.

joshnky
11-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Vince Young wasn't his teams goal line back because Mack Brown didn't want to get him killed. Meyer doesn't have the same worry because Tebow can take the beating and keep on ticking.

Yeah, Tebow can take a beating. Its not like he'll break his hand or something. Oh wait...

The reason Tebow is the goal line back and Vince Young wasn't is because Vince Young had Cedric Benson (2004), Jamaal Charles, and Selvin Young while Tebow doesn't have a RB to carry that load. To say the reason Tebow gets the goal line carries is because of his endurance is ridiculous. He gets those carries because there is no one else.

Once again, I have nothing against Tebow or him winning the Heisman but some of your arguments are very flawed.

MaineRed
11-26-2007, 10:12 PM
The reason McFadden had to play QB for Arkansas is because the QB there sucks. So what?

Nobody else has ever run for 22 TDs in the SEC and that includes running backs. I refuse to believe that Tebow is the first QB in history to play for a team with a weak running back situation and that is THE reason for the TDs. But that is the impliction that is passed around here.

No goal line back has ever scored 22 TDs but people play off the record as a result of Tebow acting as his teams goal line back. It makes NO sense and it amazes me that people continue to bring it up. It would be like Darren McFadden breaking the SEC record for passing TDs but me dismissing it because, "he is acting as the Arkansas QB since they have no one else". Wouldn't that be a moronic argument? Exactly.


Yeah, Tebow can take a beating. Its not like he'll break his hand or something. Oh wait...

The same broken hand you didn't hear about until AFTER the game. That is the definition of taking a beating and keep on ticking. Same thing with his shoulder injury. Guys like Vince Young would be over on the sidelines crying with both injuries. He certainly wouldn't be on the field running it up the gut for another score.

I concede that Vince Young had better teammates but that isn't the reason he never ran the ball into the endzone 22 times.

Highlifeman21
12-01-2007, 09:35 AM
Here's some food for thought.

Assuming Tim Tebow wins the Heisman this year, he could join a certain Buckeye as a repeat winner next year.

He's just that good.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Lou Holtz and Mark May, two guys who can't agree on anything say it is clear who the Heisman winner should be. Tebow.

May said the reason why is the unprecedented 51 TDs that he scored playing in the SEC.

Danny Serafini
12-01-2007, 12:23 PM
Tim Brown, someone who's won a Heisman and has a vote, didn't put Tebow on his ballot. I think the only consensus this year is that there's no consensus.

Gainesville Red
12-01-2007, 12:36 PM
Tim Brown, someone who's won a Heisman and has a vote, didn't put Tebow on his ballot.

Brown's the most outspoken I've heard about absolutley not voting for a sophomore, no matter what.

I also heard him on the radio saying that he plans on voting for "Daniel" McFadden.

So there's how closely he's holding his finger to the pulse of college football.

Danny Serafini
12-01-2007, 02:14 PM
The interview I heard he never mentioned Tebow being a sophomore. Wasn't a factor.

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 03:07 PM
Tim Brown is a moron. Anyone who has ever listened to him could tell you that.

There is a reason he and the likes of Eddie George work for Fox Sports Net talking about fantasy football.

The show they do is just dreadful.

Gainesville Red
12-01-2007, 06:18 PM
The interview I heard he never mentioned Tebow being a sophomore. Wasn't a factor.

Did he say why?

MWM
12-01-2007, 06:53 PM
He sounded like an idiot. He said wins and losses are more important for QBs than for other positions. The sophomore and wins and losses arguments are weak, IMO. It should all be about how outstanding the player has been.

Gainesville Red
12-01-2007, 07:03 PM
I know he said wins and losses are important for a qb, but still, someone should remind him what the ND record was the year he won it. (8-4)

MaineRed
12-01-2007, 09:58 PM
Looks like Tebow played the 2nd half last night with a broken right hand. (Obviously, he's left handed.)

Not sure what the specific injury was but Pat White did something to his non throwing hand tonight against Pitt and to this point has not been able to continue.

This goes back to my point of why nobody has ever rushed for 20TDs while also throwing for 20. They just can't do it. Tebow can and did. Guys like Pat White are in danger of getting broken on every play. I really don't think Urban Meyer waste too much time worrying about the bruising Tebow getting hurt (even though he did).

This is why people shouldn't undermine the 20 rushing TDs no matter how short the runs were. I've seen Pat White listed as a Heisman candidate and if WVU gets upset with him on the sideline he'll probably get at least half of the Dennis Dixon sympathy vote.

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 04:16 PM
My Heisman ballot would look like this:

1. Colt Brennan
2. Darren McFadden
3. Dennis Dixon
4. Chase Daniel
5. Sam Bradford
6. Kevin Smith

Gainesville Red
12-02-2007, 05:41 PM
Tebow doesn't even get into your top 6?

Wow.

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 05:44 PM
Brennan, Bradford, and Daniel all had higher completion % and threw for more yards. Sorry, the Jerome Bettis-esque TD runs don't impress me too much.

KronoRed
12-02-2007, 06:06 PM
Tebow doesn't even get into your top 6?

Wow.

Didn't you know nothing in the SEC is as good as the WAC ;)

WMR
12-02-2007, 06:11 PM
My Heisman ballot would look like this:

1. Colt Brennan
2. Darren McFadden
3. Dennis Dixon
4. Chase Daniel
5. Sam Bradford
6. Kevin Smith

Bias much?? :lol:

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 06:12 PM
Bias much?? :lol:

No. I think those guys are better than Tim Tebow. If I were biased then why would I have Darren McFadden in my top two.

WMR
12-02-2007, 06:31 PM
No. I think those guys are better than Tim Tebow. If I were biased then why would I have Darren McFadden in my top two.

I dunno.... I mean, BELIEVE ME, OBM, I hate Florida more than ANYBODY. And even I am forced to concede that at the very least the kid has earned a trip to NYC. AND I HATE *HATE* SAYING THAT.

MWM
12-02-2007, 06:38 PM
Mine would go like this:

1 - Dixon
2 - McFadden
3 - Brennan
4 - Tebow
5 - Graham Harrell
6 - Chase Daniel

For the life of me, I can't understand why, if TDs are so important, no one even mentions Graham Harrell. He completed 73% of his passes, threw for 5,300 yards, and 45 TDs. And he did it in the Big 12, so it's not like he's played the same schedule as Hawaii.

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 06:42 PM
Mine would go like this:

1 - Dixon
2 - McFadden
3 - Brennan
4 - Tebow
5 - Graham Harrell
6 - Chase Daniel

For the life of me, I can't understand why, if TDs are so important, no one even mentions Graham Harrell. He completed 73% of his passes, threw for 5,300 yards, and 45 TDs. And he did it in the Big 12, so it's not like he's played the same schedule as Hawaii.

Graham Harrell. Dang I completely forgot all about him. I would place him right behind Dixon and in front of Bradford and Daniel. People don't mention Harrell because they say TTU throws the ball 60 times a game, but I don't see how that's any different than Tebow running the ball everytime they get inside the 5.

MWM
12-02-2007, 06:43 PM
People don't mention Harrell because they say TTU throws the ball 60 times a game, but I don't see how that's any different than Tebow running the ball everytime they get inside the 5.

That's kind of my point. If he's a product of the system, you have to use that same criteria to evaluate everyone in the mix. And with his 4 rushing TDs, that makes him with 49 total.

MaineRed
12-02-2007, 06:44 PM
I can't believe it has to be explained to someone that TDs ARE important or that 51 is more than 45 or that a SOS of 9 is much better than a SOS of 74.

I don't think anyone here thinks Harrell deserves the trophy so that is why nobody has brought him up. It wasn't until now that people started posting their top 6.

Harrell has great numbers but his team was irrelevant this season and lost four games against a very average schedule.

MaineRed
12-02-2007, 06:54 PM
That's kind of my point. If he's a product of the system, you have to use that same criteria to evaluate everyone in the mix.

Guys have thrown for 45 TDs before. Nobody has put up 51 in the SEC and nobody has done the 20/20 thing.

It ain't the system, it is Tebow. I really don't know why you can't see that. I go back to Pat White. Better runner than Tebow but he is a tin can compared to the tank that is Tebow. That is why Tebow can find the endzone while White is on the sidelines crying about his boo boo.

If it was the system, Meyer would have just used Chris Leak to run the ball into the endzone 20 times last year instead of calling on Tebow from time to time.

And you don't think with a second 1,000 yard rusher and no QB that McFadden was in a rushing system?

Highlifeman21
12-02-2007, 06:59 PM
Tebow
McFadden
Brennan

That's my Top 3.

MWM
12-02-2007, 06:59 PM
In the 5 games against Oklahoma State, Texas A&M, Missouri, Texas, and Oklahoma, Harrell threw for over 2,300 yards and 16 TDs. The guy can sling it and 49 TDs on the year is impressive. He at least deserves to be in the conversation.

MaineRed
12-02-2007, 10:10 PM
June Jones just took some unneccessary shots at Tim Tebow on ESPN.

He said Tebow couldn't run the Hawaii system and when asked why, he said accuracy.

Tebow is 8th in the country in compeltion %.

Hate to say it coach but if that is all you got, right back at you. If the so called Florida system is one that calls for the QB to score 20 rushing TDs, Brennan couldn't do it either.

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 10:44 PM
I knew there was a reason I was a huge fan of June Jones.:D He just beat down Tim Tebow on live TV. I gotta agree, Colt Brennan will have a better NFL career.

MWM
12-02-2007, 10:57 PM
That was pretty bush league by Jones. Totally not cool.

OnBaseMachine
12-02-2007, 11:15 PM
All kidding aside, despite being a June Jones fan, I don't think he should have said that on live TV, though I do agree with him. That's something he should have probably kept to himself and I'm sure he'll agree after he thinks about it more.

KronoRed
12-03-2007, 12:03 AM
I wonder what people would think if Urban Meyer said that?

Tebow is a system QB? so what is Brennan then?

You stay classy June Jones

Caveat Emperor
12-03-2007, 12:08 AM
My ballot would go:

Tebow
Brennan
McFadden
Dixon
Daniel

And you know what? I'm so sick of canned soundbites from coaches that I enjoy when one says what is on his mind. More power to June Jones -- I don't agree with him, but props to him for having the stones to say something interesting.

MaineRed
12-03-2007, 09:04 AM
Lets also be clear, if June Jones coached at Texas Tech, Harrell and Michael Crabtree would be the ones he is hyping. Good for him for hyping his player but no reason to drag Tebow into it. Totally bush league. Tebow goes out and scores 51 TDs and he had to listen to that crap?

Like Krono said, what would we be saying this morning here at SEC Central if Urban Meyer had said that? Perhaps OBM would like to answer that question?

It really is time for folks to start being objective. This SEC crap and not putting Tebow on your ballot is nothing but a ploy to draw a reaction and I'm not sure why the mods can't see it. Little jokes and ribbing comments are fine. But constantly ragging on Tebow and the SEC just because you are upset over some percieved bias is ridiculous.

Just more proof that posters feel that verbally attacking whatever, is fine. So long as the person on the recieving end is someone they don't like. But turn it around and look out!

Danny Serafini
12-03-2007, 12:35 PM
You really take this way too personally. People would only leave Tebow off a ballot to annoy you? Come on. Nobody's allowed to think he's not one of the three best players in the country? People have different opinions.

MaineRed
12-03-2007, 01:15 PM
You really take this way too personally. People would only leave Tebow off a ballot to annoy you? Come on. Nobody's allowed to think he's not one of the three best players in the country? People have different opinions.

Danny, a certain poster has been going out of his way to make baiting comments about the SEC. When called it on by a couple of people he responded by telling them to check their PMs. Hmmm, wonder what that was all about. Then he shows up in this thread and fills out his "ballot". People can have their own opinions and I have been happy to discuss those opinions with anyone. Just not someone who is only sharing those "opinions" to annoy me.

And he didn't say he wasn't one of his top 3. He listed 6 players and Tebow wasnt one of them. And he is the same guy running around calling the SEC th SUC. To me that is more that just "having an opinion."

How about if start calling the Big Ten the little 11? And how about if I go around all the college football threads and keep calling it that for no good reason? Over and over and over and over and over?

Danny Serafini
12-03-2007, 02:37 PM
Fair enough. I haven't read every college football post from the last few days, they're all starting to blend together.

Highlifeman21
12-03-2007, 02:45 PM
I know some people don't like Colin Cowherd, but he made a decent point during his show today.

Pat White and Chase Daniel only hurt their Heisman stock this weekend. Whatever their place on respective voters' lists, they had no place to go but down.

Tebow put together an impressive body of work this season.

MaineRed
12-03-2007, 02:50 PM
This is from, http://thebiglead.com/?p=3813


Nothing this weekend moved us to change the way we’d vote for the winner, but we do have a new No. 2 and a new No. 3 as well. Maybe we’re just on an anti-BCS kick, or Banksy being in New York has seeped into our subconscious and turned us anti-establishment. But we’re sorry, people, when the Heisman folks ask for the most outstanding player in the country this season, we think of one word: Consistency. Darren McFadden didn’t eclipse 100 yards in three games, and didn’t score in four others. Glenn Dorsey missed too much time with injuries. Pat White happened to get hurt in the two games WVU lost. Dennis Dixon’s torn ACL cost him his campaign. Whatever.

Our vote

1) Tim Tebow, QB, Florida. Most consistent QB in the country, and performed well in four games against ranked opponents.

2) Colt Brennan, QB, Hawaii. Yes he operates in a system designed for big numbers, but the Warriors went unbeaten and Saturday’s awesome showing against Washington (42-for-50, 442 yards, five TDs) is what we were looking for out of Chase Daniel in his big spot.

3) Kevin Smith, RB, Central Florida. F it. He was outstanding this year for the C-USA school, rushing for a ridiculous 2,448 yards and 29 TDs. In one game against a ranked opponent (Texas), UCF lost 35-32, but Smith rushed for 149 yards and two scores. It’s not like these guys were pushovers … Smith’s incredible year spurned the Knights to the Conference USA Championship. Is McFadden a better pro prospect? Yup. But who had the better season? Tebow performed well against every SEC opponent … can’t say the same for McFadden.

What we think will happen
1) Tebow

2) Darren McFadden, RB, Arkansas

3) Colt Brennan, QB, Hawaii.

4) Chase Daniel, QB, Missouri

5) Dennis Dixon, QB, Oregon

BRM
12-03-2007, 03:06 PM
I've read all the reasons and I understand them but I have a really hard time not giving the award to Tebow. 51 TDs in the SEC is unbelievable. I don't care how he got them, it's impressive. Just MHO.

OnBaseMachine
12-03-2007, 05:50 PM
You really take this way too personally. People would only leave Tebow off a ballot to annoy you? Come on. Nobody's allowed to think he's not one of the three best players in the country? People have different opinions.

Good post.

Roy Tucker
12-11-2007, 01:21 PM
Tebow has a believer in Jerry Jones.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/SPORTS/712110342/1002/SPORTS



Cowboys owner thinks Tebow ready for NFL

BY DAVID JONES
FLORIDA TODAY

NFL-caliber? Florida quarterback Tim Tebow has the tools to be an NFL player, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones says. AP

NEW YORK - Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones loves to watch tape of college football games with his scouts, and sometimes he'll even flip on a good one when he's just curious to see a certain player.

Florida's Tim Tebow, who became the first sophomore to win the Heisman Trophy on Saturday night, is one of those players who makes him stop, sit down and pay attention. It could be two more years before Tebow ever steps on an NFL field -- he's repeatedly said this week his plans are to stay at UF for his senior season in 2009 -- but Jones is convinced the Gators' quarterback has something special.

"I watch him a lot," Jones said last Thursday at the Home Dept Awards show in Lake Buena Vista, where Tebow won the Davey O'Brien and Maxwell awards for best college quarterback and overall player. "I watch a lot of the Southeastern Conference games, I watch a lot of college football on a tape basis that we do with our scouts and I watch a lot of it just watching the ballgames. I don't know that I've seen anybody who has the combination skills that he does and the size.

"I've seen him make game-winning decisions, I've seen him come back from adversity. Those are the kinds of things at that position you just don't know what you've got until they've stunk it up and lost one about 30-something points and has everybody talking about them and nobody talking to them in the huddle, and then come on back and have a good game. That's when you know you've got a good quarterback."

Jones is among those, however, who doesn't feel Tebow can run with the football in the NFL like he did this season on the college level, with over 800 yards and tying an NCAA record for quarterbacks with 22 rushing touchdowns.

"I think you can't move around and run continually in the NFL this day and time," Jones said. "You've got to get rid of the ball. That's asking a lot from the quarterback. We all thought (Michael) Vick with his inordinate skills could hold up, but you'd see Vick get hurt. Anybody carrying that football in the NFL is going to get hurt."

Jones, however, does compare Tebow to another NFL quarterback.

"As far as a guy who puts a lot of pressure on everybody running the ball, that can get the ball to (receivers), I would say a contemporary example would be Vince Young," Jones said.

While Tebow realizes the Heisman can change a person's image forever, he confessed prior to the ceremony on Saturday night that he wants to be known 20 or 30 years from now more for the kind of person he is. He uses 1996 Heisman winner Danny Wuerffel of Florida as an example of someone who is remembered just as much for the good things he still does with Desire Street Ministries and his religious convictions.

"I think, definitely, that will last a lot longer than 20-20 (touchdowns passing and rushing) or something like that," he said. "You want people to remember you for the way you won it. I don't think anybody besides (the media) remember how many touchdowns (Wuerffel) scored, but everybody remembers how he put his hands together and prayed, and always being humble and always with the utmost integrity and everything like that."

Wuerffel used to cup his hands and say a prayer of thanks after each touchdown pass at Florida. Tebow has done the same but has been careful in his public display.

"I have done it a few times, but I didn't do it a lot because that was Danny's thing," Tebow said. "That was kind of special for Danny. I still do it to give thanks and everything, but, I don't have to show it exactly like that."

Down the road, when his football playing days are over, he likely will copy Wuerffel in another way. Tebow's father, Bob, is a missionary in the Phillipines. Tim Tebow is seriously considering taking over his father's work some day.

"There's no doubt about it." Tebow said, of likely going into missionary work. "Hopefully he'll be doing it for awhile. But definitely (he may follow his father)."

Tebow has visited the Phillipines several times with his father and has spoken to groups and individuals there. He won't be able to go this summer, but said he's trying to work out a visit in the spring.

"I hate leaving," Tebow said. "It's a great place. I love it. We have a great relationship. One of the kids is actually named after me, so we're really close. Just all their stories are unbelievable. They'll write cards and stuff like that."

Tebow said the kids there, "know I'm a football player and they know it's really cool and stuff like that, but they don't obviously know everything."

pedro
01-02-2008, 02:55 PM
After watching the game yesterday I'm blown away that this guy won the Heisman. Granted it was teh first time I've seen him all year and his stats are impressive but jeez, he was a big ball of stink yesterday.

Caveat Emperor
01-02-2008, 03:31 PM
After watching the game yesterday I'm blown away that this guy won the Heisman. Granted it was teh first time I've seen him all year and his stats are impressive but jeez, he was a big ball of stink yesterday.

Word is that he received some advice on how to play like a Heisman Winner from Troy Smith. ;)

bucksfan2
01-02-2008, 04:03 PM
After watching the game yesterday I'm blown away that this guy won the Heisman. Granted it was teh first time I've seen him all year and his stats are impressive but jeez, he was a big ball of stink yesterday.

I really was disappointed with Tebow yesterday. Granted I didn't watch a whole lot of Florida's games this past season but he did nothing to impress me. He can't throw the ball down the field. It seemed like to me that most of his passing yards were short passes that a WR or RB made a move and took the ball down field.

RedsManRick
01-02-2008, 04:18 PM
It's almost becoming a routine. QB with accurate arm and good legs behind an NFL caliber line racks up a ton yards both passing and running. He gets a ton of acclaim. He then goes to the NFL and faces DE's as fast as most LB's he faced in college and LB's as fast as most CB's. They shut down his running game and suddenly you've got a guy with an immature decision making process (used to just running for it) who can't throw a ball reliably over 20 yards and he struggles big time.

The variation in line quality in college ball makes certain skill players much more useful than they'll be in the pro's.

IslandRed
01-02-2008, 04:26 PM
I really was disappointed with Tebow yesterday. Granted I didn't watch a whole lot of Florida's games this past season but he did nothing to impress me. He can't throw the ball down the field. It seemed like to me that most of his passing yards were short passes that a WR or RB made a move and took the ball down field.

That's just UF's offense. They do a lot of dink-dink-catch-run stuff, along with taking some shots deep, and not a whole lot in the midrange. My team has unfortunate firsthand knowledge that he can throw the deep ball. Maybe he just had a Heisman Jinx day?

But I don't think anyone would argue Tebow is the best passer in college football. His value is in his combination of passing and running, and it sounded like Michigan did a good job against his running and also got a good pass rush. Harvin tore 'em up, but you can't stop everything.

WMR
01-02-2008, 04:27 PM
The best passer in college football is Andre' Woodson.

BRM
01-02-2008, 04:31 PM
The best passer in college football is Andre' Woodson.

That would make him the first QB taken in the draft most likely. I have my doubts that he will be.

Highlifeman21
01-02-2008, 04:35 PM
The best passer in college football is Andre' Woodson.

After keeping tabs on the top 5 QBs that are draft eligible, Woodson's stock has done nothing but fall.

The most recent top 5 QB by MKJr has them as follows:

Matt Ryan
Brian Brohm
Joe Flacco
Colt Brennan
Andre' Woodson

Having seen too much of Matt Ryan and Brian Brohm this year, I would easily put Brohm above Ryan without hesitation. Matt Ryan does nothing to impress me and might have a NFL strength arm, but I think he greatly lacks accuracy, and makes poor decisions.

I admittedly know nothing about Flacco, and my bias towards Colt Brennan makes me think that yesterday's game was an outlier for him. I would rank them:

Brohm
Brennan
Woodson
Ryan

and remove Flacco, since I know nothing about him.

Woodson quite possibly might have the most potential and athletic ability, but he's far from a finished/polished QB. For my money, Brohm is the QB most ready to take starter snaps next year, followed by Brennan.

WMR
01-02-2008, 04:36 PM
Notice I said "passer" not "most NFL ready QB." Andre' Woodson broke Danny Wuerrfel's SEC record of TD passes on his way to throwing 40 (FORTY!!).

BRM
01-02-2008, 04:37 PM
Most of the mock drafts I've seen have Ryan and Brohm going ahead of Woodson. All 3 are first rounders though in nearly every mock draft I've taken the time to look at.

WMR
01-02-2008, 04:37 PM
I would take Woodson over Brennan six days a week and twice on sundays. Brennan will be lucky to get drafted in the 2nd round after his performance against Georgia yesterday.

WMR
01-02-2008, 04:38 PM
I've seen several that predict Woodson going after Brohm but ahead of Ryan. That's how I think it will shake out.

GAC
01-02-2008, 04:41 PM
After watching the game yesterday I'm blown away that this guy won the Heisman. Granted it was teh first time I've seen him all year and his stats are impressive but jeez, he was a big ball of stink yesterday.


He was; but I give a lot of credit to Michigan too. Someone lit a fire under them boys.

And over the last few weeks I've heard a lot of talk about Hawaii's Colt Brennan and how good he is. Georgia (who I picked) put a whippin' on them boys. ;)

Caveat Emperor
01-02-2008, 05:41 PM
I would take Woodson over Brennan six days a week and twice on sundays. Brennan will be lucky to get drafted in the 2nd round after his performance against Georgia yesterday.

I don't know it hurt his status that much.

Hawaii might've been better off starting a couple extra wideouts and benching both their tackles. The instant pressure Georgia got off the ends all night was disgusting. Peyton Manning would've looked helpless behind that line.

TC81190
01-02-2008, 05:48 PM
Is Dixon draft eligible? I'm almost certain he is...but...I like him as a QB.

Colt Brennan, I find highly overrated.

OnBaseMachine
01-02-2008, 06:51 PM
I don't see Dixon having success in the NFL.

I like Brohm and Colt Brennan as the top two QB's along with Ryan.

TC81190
01-02-2008, 06:54 PM
I don't see Dixon having success in the NFL.

I like Brohm and Colt Brennan as the top two QB's along with Ryan.

Really? I liked his throwing motion for some reason, I don't know. Just seemed solid to me.

I like Brohm and Ryan, Colt Brennan has a weak arm IMO. He might be Chad Pennington II.

As far as underclassmen go, I like Juice Williams. I don't like Tebow for NFL success, though. I think he'll end up like Vince Young did this year.

OnBaseMachine
01-02-2008, 07:26 PM
Juice Williams? Really. He's not even a good college QB IMO.

TC81190
01-02-2008, 07:27 PM
Juice Williams? Really. He's not even a good college QB IMO.

I could be wrong...but I think he could develop into something good.

GAC
01-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Without looking up the final statistics, but I knew it was so during most of the regular season, Juice was the lowest rated QB in the Big Ten as far as passing efficiency, yardage, completions, etc.

He was Troy Smith lite.

MWM
01-02-2008, 09:02 PM
I tend to never read too much into a single game. I think the Michigan game exposed some of his deficiencies, but I also think it's fair to say that he just had an off game. He's much better QB than he showed, much like Colt Brennan is better than he showed against Georgia.

joshnky
01-02-2008, 09:29 PM
The best passer in college football is Andre' Woodson.

I hope you're not serious. Woodson is good but is far from a polished passer. He played well in a passing heavy offense predicated on short slants and screens with occasional shots down the field.

To prove my point, this year Woodson averaged 7.2 ypa and a 144.5 rating. Brohm averaged 8.5 ypa and a 152.4 rating.

Woodson is a great QB and certainly one of the top three passers. He has a build that the NFL scouts love but has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long and has thrived as a "system" QB at UK.

KronoRed
01-02-2008, 09:51 PM
Notice I said "passer" not "most NFL ready QB." Andre' Woodson broke Danny Wuerrfel's SEC record of TD passes on his way to throwing 40 (FORTY!!).

To be fair, back then bowl games didn't count in the stats, if they did Danny would have had 43

He's a good QB though:D

KronoRed
01-02-2008, 09:52 PM
Tebow looked average yesterday but a lot of it goes back to Florida's lack of a true RB, Michigan just came every play with their only goal being to go after him, still he led Florida to 35 points, and most of the time that's enough to get a win.

MWM
01-02-2008, 10:18 PM
Tebow looked average yesterday but a lot of it goes back to Florida's lack of a true RB, Michigan just came every play with their only goal being to go after him, still he led Florida to 35 points, and most of the time that's enough to get a win.

I'd say the 35 points were as much about Harvin as anything else. Tebow was only 17-33 (barely 50%) for 154 yards. And I know a couple of the big pass plays, like the second TD, was him taking a snap and throwing it stright out to Caldwell who did the rest.

I know he's much better than he showed yesterday, but there's no way around the fact that he just didn't play well yesterday.

pedro
01-03-2008, 01:11 AM
I'd say the 35 points were as much about Harvin as anything else. Tebow was only 17-33 (barely 50%) for 154 yards. And I know a couple of the big pass plays, like the second TD, was him taking a snap and throwing it stright out to Caldwell who did the rest.

I know he's much better than he showed yesterday, but there's no way around the fact that he just didn't play well yesterday.

Honestly, I'm not sure why Florida didn't run the option every play, it was the only thing that worked for them.

Highlifeman21
01-03-2008, 07:55 AM
I've seen several that predict Woodson going after Brohm but ahead of Ryan. That's how I think it will shake out.

From what I've seen of Woodson, he looks to be a smaller, better throwing, more accurate JaMarcus Russell, minus a little arm strength. His mechanics looks to be better than Russell's, but he does have less strength, but makes up for it by actually being able to hit his receivers with precision.

As for Matt Ryan, he's just the product of the NE media hype. He'll play at the next level, don't get me wrong, but I just don't see him being an immediate starter. I see him more as a journeyman back-up.

I still think Woodson has the most upside of all the QBs already eligible for the draft.

And as for Colt Brennan? Well, that Sugar Bowl still stings a lil bit. Reminds me of all the reference they make to a bad Sugar Bowl performance in the movie The Replacements with Keanu Reeves' character.

Highlifeman21
01-03-2008, 07:57 AM
I could be wrong...but I think he could develop into something good.

Sure, at a different skill position in the NFL.

Juice Williams won't play at the next level as a QB.

HB, WR, DB, S maybe. But not QB.

bucksfan2
01-03-2008, 08:44 AM
I'd say the 35 points were as much about Harvin as anything else. Tebow was only 17-33 (barely 50%) for 154 yards. And I know a couple of the big pass plays, like the second TD, was him taking a snap and throwing it stright out to Caldwell who did the rest.

I know he's much better than he showed yesterday, but there's no way around the fact that he just didn't play well yesterday.

What stuck me was more of what he couldn't do than what he did do. UM did get after Tebow and Tebow did play a pretty poor game. But he couldn't stretch the field deep and when he threw the ball over 15 yards it looked like a flying duck rather than a football. He looked like a good downhill runner but didn't look like a scrambler. I give UM credit because they played good aggressive football and their good tackleing DB's did just that.

As for the QB debate don't discount Brennan too much. He just has that "it" factor with QB's. He may not be the strongest, tallest, biggest arm, or fastest but he gets the job done. Woodson looked very good from time to time but tended to make bad decesions. Ryan has the QB look but can he put it all together?

joshnky
01-03-2008, 11:22 AM
He may not be the strongest, tallest, biggest arm, or fastest but he gets the job done.

He gets the job done in college but that hasn't always transferred well to the NFL. He reminds me of the Texas Tech QBs in terms of huge numbers without the measurable skills that make a great NFL QB. I may be wrong but it seems like the system and the schedule had more to do with Brennan's numbers than he did.