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View Full Version : What does Wayne Krivsky do next????



thatcoolguy_22
11-23-2007, 07:33 PM
With the recent signing (physical pending of course) of Fransisco Cordero WK and Bob have successfully proven to the majority of fans (mainly just us redzoners :cool:) that they are willing to do what is necessary to put a team on the field that is capable of winning... My question is what do you do next?


My plan of attack

1) To give err uhhh "trade" Mike Stanton and Gary Majewski to whoever decides they will give us either a PTBNL or cash considerations...

2) Find out what teams KGJ is willing to play for and package a deal. We need Jay Bruce roaming RF in 2007. I would trade Griff for another quality bullpen arm and an above average SS prospect (does anyone really think Janish is going to be a SS anytime soon for the Redlegs)

3) Find a way to get any of the following or, someone in their tier; Erik Bedard, Scott Kazmir, Joe Blanton, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholtz, Matt Garza, Ian Snell, Kevin Slowey etc etc... If I am going to make this sort of deal I can trade any of our big 4 (assuming not both Hamilton and Jay Bruce in the same package...)

4) Find out exactly how much Adam Dunn will want to sign an extension and plead with Bob Castellini to let me make it happen. (I believe it was reported we only spend 43% or so of revenues on team salary... there is room for more IMO)



That would leave us with an outfield with power bats in both corners and a rangy Hopper/Freel roaming center. power and average on both corner infield spots (also EE turned into quite the glove man down the stretch last year) and the middle infield is fabulous on D and BP is more than adequate on the basepaths and at the plate... Defensively we will be fine and offensively if everyone either plays to their standard or expectations we will be a force to reckon with. SPs will have another dominant member to tag along with Harang and Arroyo and have Belisle fill out the 4 with either Homer (if not traded) or Cueto (if he makes the club out of ST) in the number 5 spot missing starts occassionally.. The BP could very well be a point of strength for this team depending on how McBeth, Cout, Salmon, and Burton progress. Also Tyler Pelland has a legitimate shot at seeing a lot of time this year in the 6th and 7th... (On a side note Cordero converted 86% of his saves last year and if you would apply that to our team last year we would have been +19 saves, just saying... Also I know it doesn't work like that btw it just sounds pretty :thumbup:)


What is everyone elses plans and what do you guys think we will do next????

Bip Roberts
11-23-2007, 07:35 PM
I havent let the Cordero thing settle in yet so ill post later :o

GoReds33
11-23-2007, 07:36 PM
I havent let the Cordero thing settle in yet so ill post later :oI have to agree, though I do have one thought. Don't give up on Majewski just yet. He could be effective in the sixth or seventh next year.

Dracodave
11-23-2007, 07:40 PM
I think at this point if you are building towards pitching and you just showed your willing to pay.

Hatteberg+Freel+Whomever for Whatever pitching we can get.:beerme:

steig
11-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Next move is to free up space in the outfield for Bruce

fewfirstchoice
11-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Freel,Hatte,Janish,and Wood to Twins for Garza or Slowey either or.

This gives the Twins a CF in Freel,a DH/1B in Hatte,and a young pitcher in Wood to take the place of who the Reds receive sort of.Then throw in a young SS prospect and the deal should or could happen.

757690
11-23-2007, 08:00 PM
With the recent signing (physical pending of course) of Fransisco Cordero WK and Bob have successfully proven to the majority of fans (mainly just us redzoners :cool:) that they are willing to do what is necessary to put a team on the field that is capable of winning... My question is what do you do next?


My plan of attack

1) To give err uhhh "trade" Mike Stanton and Gary Majewski to whoever decides they will give us either a PTBNL or cash considerations...

2) Find out what teams KGJ is willing to play for and package a deal. We need Jay Bruce roaming RF in 2007. I would trade Griff for another quality bullpen arm and an above average SS prospect (does anyone really think Janish is going to be a SS anytime soon for the Redlegs)

3) Find a way to get any of the following or, someone in their tier; Erik Bedard, Scott Kazmir, Joe Blanton, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholtz, Matt Garza, Ian Snell, Kevin Slowey etc etc... If I am going to make this sort of deal I can trade any of our big 4 (assuming not both Hamilton and Jay Bruce in the same package...)

4) Find out exactly how much Adam Dunn will want to sign an extension and plead with Bob Castellini to let me make it happen. (I believe it was reported we only spend 43% or so of revenues on team salary... there is room for more IMO)



What is everyone elses plans and what do you guys think we will do next????

1) I doubt anyone will take Stanton, and Majewski is too young and cheap to give up on. But in terms of Stanton, one can dream.
2) KGjr is not going anywhere. He will veto any trade. Period. He had made that very clear. Otherwise, he would be the best lefthanded hitter to trade.
3) Yes, if the Reds can get Erik Bedard, Scott Kazmir, or Clay Bucholtz for Bruce or Hamilton + others, do it. The other pitchers you named do not merit either player, but possibly Votto + others.
4. Absolutely. KGjr will probably retire after 2009 if not 2008, so the Reds will a big bat like Dunn for those years and further.

I would sign a few FA pitchers coming off injuries to incentive loaded contracts. If one of them is able to come through, The Reds would be a the fav of the NLC title.

SoTxRedsFan
11-23-2007, 08:19 PM
Use the OF excess to try and get another bullpen arm. If there is some way we can get a top tier arm without giving up more than one of our big 4 propsects, I'd do it.

ChatterRed
11-23-2007, 08:49 PM
1) To give err uhhh "trade" Mike Stanton and Gary Majewski to whoever decides they will give us either a PTBNL or cash considerations...

Good luck.



2) Find out what teams KGJ is willing to play for and package a deal. We need Jay Bruce roaming RF in 2007. I would trade Griff for another quality bullpen arm and an above average SS prospect (does anyone really think Janish is going to be a SS anytime soon for the Redlegs)

Again, good luck.



3) Find a way to get any of the following or, someone in their tier; Erik Bedard, Scott Kazmir, Joe Blanton, Jon Lester, Clay Bucholtz, Matt Garza, Ian Snell, Kevin Slowey etc etc... If I am going to make this sort of deal I can trade any of our big 4 (assuming not both Hamilton and Jay Bruce in the same package...)

I'd trade anyone but Harang, Arroyo, Burton, Bruce, and Phillips in any reasonable package to get either Peavy, Kazmir, or Bedard.



4) Find out exactly how much Adam Dunn will want to sign an extension and plead with Bob Castellini to let me make it happen. (I believe it was reported we only spend 43% or so of revenues on team salary... there is room for more IMO)


Because they were unable to trade Adam at the trading deadline last season, I assume there are no reasonable trading partners for Dunn, for reasonable return. So therefore, I am in favor of extending Dunn now. I honestly think he could put up some really good numbers next season as this offense continues to improve and the young guys continue to grow and mature around him.



That would leave us with an outfield with power bats in both corners and a rangy Hopper/Freel roaming center. power and average on both corner infield spots (also EE turned into quite the glove man down the stretch last year) and the middle infield is fabulous on D and BP is more than adequate on the basepaths and at the plate... Defensively we will be fine and offensively if everyone either plays to their standard or expectations we will be a force to reckon with. SPs will have another dominant member to tag along with Harang and Arroyo and have Belisle fill out the 4 with either Homer (if not traded) or Cueto (if he makes the club out of ST) in the number 5 spot missing starts occassionally.. The BP could very well be a point of strength for this team depending on how McBeth, Cout, Salmon, and Burton progress. Also Tyler Pelland has a legitimate shot at seeing a lot of time this year in the 6th and 7th... (On a side note Cordero converted 86% of his saves last year and if you would apply that to our team last year we would have been +19 saves, just saying... Also I know it doesn't work like that btw it just sounds pretty :thumbup:)


We need to unload Freel for peanuts.

Blue
11-23-2007, 08:49 PM
I probably wouldn't trade any of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, or Hamilton. Which means, I probably wouldn't make any big trades. They're too important for this team beyond 2008.

Try to ink Kerry Wood to a deal, scavange for a catcher. Go young in the starting rotation right out of Spring Training with Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney.

roby
11-23-2007, 08:57 PM
I have to agree, though I do have one thought. Don't give up on Majewski just yet. He could be effective in the sixth or seventh next year.

Yes, you have to give the other teams a fighting chance! :D

mlbfan30
11-23-2007, 09:08 PM
I agree with Blue. We have 2 of the best pitching prospects in baseball in Bailey and Cueto. Maloney has been very good at every level he pitched at. What's wrong with trusting out prospects?

gedred69
11-23-2007, 09:51 PM
I'd say you could trade Bruce or Hamilton,---not both--in a package, Freel or Hatteberg or Keppinger, for legitimate starter potential. (Hopefully not Bruce IMO). I see KG as the odd man out, but doubtful there are any takers he wouldn't veto, except for Seattle. What have they got to offer? I agree the Reds must make room for Bruce, maybe as soon as '08.

Redsfan08
11-23-2007, 09:52 PM
get Paul lo Duca

thatcoolguy_22
11-23-2007, 10:03 PM
I agree with Blue. We have 2 of the best pitching prospects in baseball in Bailey and Cueto. Maloney has been very good at every level he pitched at. What's wrong with trusting out prospects?

Do the names Gooky Dawkins, Justin Gillman, Chris Gruler, Ruben Mateo, Ty Howington or John Oliver mean anything to you? Does anyone remember a Yankees prospect name Brien Taylor??? exactly

.

*BaseClogger*
11-23-2007, 10:18 PM
1. extend dunn
2. move hatteberg for B catching or SS prospect
3. Trade Hamilton and Stubbs/Maloney to Pirates for Ian Snell

AmarilloRed
11-23-2007, 10:35 PM
First thing, he makes sure Cordero paases that physical. We don't want another Majewski situation where we get damaged goods.

StrikeIndicator
11-23-2007, 10:41 PM
First thing, he makes sure Cordero paases that physical. We don't want another Majewski situation where we get damaged goods.

Majewski will end up having his shoulder fixed sooner rather than later. They should have cut him when they filed the grievance with MLB. As for a prior poster saying he was "too young to give up on", my response is, "his rotator cuff and labrum are too shot to keep him on the roster.

AmarilloRed
11-23-2007, 10:46 PM
There is some talk about the Reds picking up a lefty bullpen arm in free agency. I would really be surprised if there was the money to do that, but maybe Bob Castellini has decided there will be as much money as he thinks he needs to make the Reds acontending club.

Will M
11-23-2007, 10:54 PM
1. Move Dunn or Griffey ( preferably Griffey ).
RF - Hamilton
CF - Bruce
LF - Dunn or Griffey

2. Call every team in baseball & try to move Stanton, Majik, Coffey & Freel. For anything.

3. Add Kerry Wood for the pen.

4. Sign Jon Lieber as a one year starter ( with Cueto & Maloney in AAA to start the year ).

757690
11-23-2007, 11:03 PM
Majewski will end up having his shoulder fixed sooner rather than later. They should have cut him when they filed the grievance with MLB. As for a prior poster saying he was "too young to give up on", my response is, "his rotator cuff and labrum are too shot to keep him on the roster.

His arm is healthy, and he threw in the mid 90's all season. It was not his arm that was the problem. He was making bad pitches. That is fixable.

mroby85
11-24-2007, 12:03 AM
I would sign Kerry Wood, and try to get a starter to go between harang and arroyo, and it's a great offseason, i'd say its already a good one though, getting baker and cordero.

ChatterRed
11-24-2007, 12:07 AM
Someone is going to seriously overpay for Kerry Wood. He seems to be a very hot commodity right now.

VI_RedsFan
11-24-2007, 12:56 AM
If there is any money left, we need to see if we can nab Kerry Wood at 2 years $10 million. Adding Cordero is huge for the 'pen, but Wood would put the icing on the cake. Next we need to give Dunn and extension, something along the lines of 4 years $60-70 million. Then we trade Hamilton either to the Pirates for Ian Snell or to the Twins for Matt Garza. Finally get rid of some dead weight contracts in Freel, Stanton, and Coffey.
Go into the season with a roster looking like this:

Hopper (I'm sure he can handle CF until Bruce is ready in June/July)
Encarnacion
Griffey
Dunn
Phillips
Votto
Gonzalez
Ross

Hatteberg
Keppinger
Cantu
Valentin
Dickerson

Harang
Arroyo
Snell/Garza
Belisle
Bailey

???
???
Bray
Wood
Burton
Weathers
Cordero

AmarilloRed
11-24-2007, 01:23 AM
We have a lot of position players as trade bait. I could see Hamilton being moved for a starting pitcher(maybe a #3), with some additional prospects. I would not be disappointed if the Reds could get Snell or Garza in that trade. We need to consider how much starting pitching we actually need. We have 3 starting pitchers in Harang, Arroyo, and Belisle; and Cueto and Maloney ready to come up at about mid-season. I think Belisle could develop into a good#3 or #4 starter in time, and Bailey may do better next year with Cordero in the pen. I think a trade for one good starting pitcher would be enough.

hippie07
11-24-2007, 01:28 AM
I think WK next move is to sign Dunn to a LTC, because if this is possible then it sets up how he plans the rest of the team..... He then needs to noise it abroad that we're open to trading prospects for pitching and see where the best deals lie. I say we make a couple small moves to improve SP... Call me crazy, but I have faith that WK can pull off another (Pena for Arroyo) type deal, but we don't press the issue.. I don't trade Hamilton unless I'm BLOWN AWAY.. I'm not even sure Snell does it, though it's a possibility. I'd rather trade Votto & EdE for somone and save Hamilton... I think he has Mega-Star written all over him.

Votto, Stubbs, Freel, and $$$ for Snell??
Hatteberg, Maloney, Wood for Garza or Slowey...
Lower-level 'spects for Ervin Santana

I would think along the above lines and then wait to shop in the 09 FA market, to more definitely solidify the rotation.

fewfirstchoice
11-24-2007, 01:52 AM
Thats a little steep for Snell there isnt it.I would say snell could be had for 2 good prospects/players.Hamilton/Stubbs/Votto and a Maloney/Wood/Belisle type guy would get it done.Probably then same for Garza or Slowey,maybe a low minor league prospect like Janish may also have to be included but it would work.
For Santana hes a guy alot of people dont want,but I would take a chance on him.I could se the Reds and Halos do a Freel and Keppinger for Santana type deal.The Halos are going to trade and get Cabrera and will have to use Kendrick and some more young talent to get him.So guys like Freel and Keppinger will be very useful for them after they trade away alot for Cabrera.
I would like to see a deal for Garza and Santana happen.this would give Cincy a great rotation.
1)Harang
2)Arroyo
3)Garza
4)Santana
5)Bailey
That would be the best rotation in the Central easy.Then with Cordero in the pen I could see alot of wins come the Reds way.

Stephenk29
11-24-2007, 05:30 AM
there are a lot of dreamers on these boards haha. But i will agree, getting Cordero is very exciting.

patience is a virtue my friends.

AmarilloRed
11-24-2007, 09:46 AM
From there, Heyman lists the teams we've all heard a thousand times as suitors for Santana: Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers. And he also lists their trade chips, which we've also heard plenty of times before.

My take is that the Twins won't accept anything less than two elite prospects and another one or two slightly lesser, but still high-profile talents. The teams with the best hitters might win out, since the Twins are stocked with pitching.

We simply are not one of the teams that could land Santana. He will go to a team with a really big market who can afford him, and has enough elite and high-profile position prospects. I think it is more likely that Krivsky manages to pull a trade for a Snell or a Garza starting pitcher.

Will M
11-24-2007, 11:30 AM
Trading Hamilton for Snell ( or Garza or other #3 SP ) theoretically helps this year. Bruce takes Hamilton's place in CF and the rotation is Harang-Arroyo-Snell-Belisle-Bailey.

HOWEVER:

1. griffey is a DH. an of defense of Dunn-Bruce-Griffey is AWFUL.
We need an of defense of Dunn/Griffey-Bruce-Hamilton.

2. What do we do in 2009? Griffey is gone very soon. And we could have Cueto and Maloney ready for the bigs. Then we are looking for another outfielder and could have 7 starters.

3. IMO it makes more sense for the Reds to find a stop gap starter for 2008 rather than trade Hamilton for a starter.

ChatterRed
11-24-2007, 11:39 AM
If the asking price for Bedard, Kazmir, and Peavy is too high.......the Reds could always go to those same teams second best starting pitcher and try and pry them away with a Hamilton plus offer. All stats listed are for 2007. Keep in mind, the goal is a #2 or #3 starter. Some of these guys are clearly #2's and some are #3's. What I like about most of them is that their numbers are already decent and their still young.

Such as instead of Baltimore's Bedard, ask about 28 year old Jeremy Guthrie (7-5, 175 IP, 165 Hits allowed, 123 K's, 3.70 era, 1.21 WHIP, .249 BAA).

Or instead of Kazmir from the Rays, ask about 26 year old James Shields (12-8, 215 IP, 202 Hits, 184 K's, 3.85 era, 1.11 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or instead of Peavy from the Padres, ask about 28 year old Chris Young (9-8, 173 IP, 118 Hits, 167 K's, 3.12 era, 1.10 WHIP, .192 BAA).

Or go to KC who needs everything to turn their team around and try and pry one of their 3 starters away - 29 year old Gil Meche (9-13, 216 IP, 218 Hits, 156 K's, 3.67 era, 1.30 WHIP, .263 BAA) or 24 year old Zach Greinke (7-7, 122 IP, 122 Hits, 3.69 era, 1.30 WHIP, .265 BAA) or 26 year old Brian Bannister (14-10, 203 IP, 190 Hits, 96 K's, 3.95 era, 1.26 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or go to last place finishers San Francisco and try and pry 23 year old Matt Cain away (7-16, 200 IP, 173 Hits, 163 K's, 3.65 era, 1.26 WHIP, .235 BAA).

I could go on and on. But their are alot of #1 or #2 starters on bad teams that my be swapped for less of a blockbuster deal where we don't have to give up everything to get them.

Just my opinion. Solidying the middle of the starting rotation and then allowing our young guys to fill the last 2 slots, would help tremendously.

hippie07
11-24-2007, 12:10 PM
^ Good Point... I think "Hamilton +" lands a Bedard/Kazmir type though, if that doesn't happen... You hold onto Hamilton. Buy a stop-gap and then buy a longer-term fix in 2009 (Derek Lowe) and see what happens w/ Belisle/Bailey/Cueto...

hippie07
11-24-2007, 01:02 PM
If the asking price for Bedard, Kazmir, and Peavy is too high.......the Reds could always go to those same teams second best starting pitcher and try and pry them away with a Hamilton plus offer. All stats listed are for 2007. Keep in mind, the goal is a #2 or #3 starter. Some of these guys are clearly #2's and some are #3's. What I like about most of them is that their numbers are already decent and their still young.

Such as instead of Baltimore's Bedard, ask about 28 year old Jeremy Guthrie (7-5, 175 IP, 165 Hits allowed, 123 K's, 3.70 era, 1.21 WHIP, .249 BAA).

Or instead of Kazmir from the Rays, ask about 26 year old James Shields (12-8, 215 IP, 202 Hits, 184 K's, 3.85 era, 1.11 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or instead of Peavy from the Padres, ask about 28 year old Chris Young (9-8, 173 IP, 118 Hits, 167 K's, 3.12 era, 1.10 WHIP, .192 BAA).

Or go to KC who needs everything to turn their team around and try and pry one of their 3 starters away - 29 year old Gil Meche (9-13, 216 IP, 218 Hits, 156 K's, 3.67 era, 1.30 WHIP, .263 BAA) or 24 year old Zach Greinke (7-7, 122 IP, 122 Hits, 3.69 era, 1.30 WHIP, .265 BAA) or 26 year old Brian Bannister (14-10, 203 IP, 190 Hits, 96 K's, 3.95 era, 1.26 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or go to last place finishers San Francisco and try and pry 23 year old Matt Cain away (7-16, 200 IP, 173 Hits, 163 K's, 3.65 era, 1.26 WHIP, .235 BAA).

I could go on and on. But their are alot of #1 or #2 starters on bad teams that my be swapped for less of a blockbuster deal where we don't have to give up everything to get them.

Just my opinion. Solidying the middle of the starting rotation and then allowing our young guys to fill the last 2 slots, would help tremendously.

I know I've already commented on this, but I think it's worth another, because its a brilliant post. Some mornings I wake up w/ a terrible dread that I'm going to turn on the computer and learn that WK has traded Hamilton for a middle reliever or something equally awful.... but other mornings, like today, I wake up thinking that WK is totally going to pull off another "Pena for Arroyo" type deal and these #2/#3 guys are exactly the type that we might score. Could we land one of these guys for a deal centering around Votto or around EdE... ?

ChatterRed
11-24-2007, 01:20 PM
I know I've already commented on this, but I think it's worth another, because its a brilliant post. Some mornings I wake up w/ a terrible dread that I'm going to turn on the computer and learn that WK has traded Hamilton for a middle reliever or something equally awful.... but other mornings, like today, I wake up thinking that WK is totally going to pull off another "Pena for Arroyo" type deal and these #2/#3 guys are exactly the type that we might score. Could we land one of these guys for a deal centering around Votto or around EdE... ?


Thanks. :thumbup:

Strider
11-24-2007, 01:22 PM
To the question...a RH bat & a starter

*BaseClogger*
11-24-2007, 02:34 PM
If they want to deal James Shields, I'd do it in a heatbeat... I don't think we can afford to pick up Gill Meche though...

thatcoolguy_22
11-24-2007, 03:29 PM
If the asking price for Bedard, Kazmir, and Peavy is too high.......the Reds could always go to those same teams second best starting pitcher and try and pry them away with a Hamilton plus offer. All stats listed are for 2007. Keep in mind, the goal is a #2 or #3 starter. Some of these guys are clearly #2's and some are #3's. What I like about most of them is that their numbers are already decent and their still young.

Such as instead of Baltimore's Bedard, ask about 28 year old Jeremy Guthrie (7-5, 175 IP, 165 Hits allowed, 123 K's, 3.70 era, 1.21 WHIP, .249 BAA).

Or instead of Kazmir from the Rays, ask about 26 year old James Shields (12-8, 215 IP, 202 Hits, 184 K's, 3.85 era, 1.11 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or instead of Peavy from the Padres, ask about 28 year old Chris Young (9-8, 173 IP, 118 Hits, 167 K's, 3.12 era, 1.10 WHIP, .192 BAA).

Or go to KC who needs everything to turn their team around and try and pry one of their 3 starters away - 29 year old Gil Meche (9-13, 216 IP, 218 Hits, 156 K's, 3.67 era, 1.30 WHIP, .263 BAA) or 24 year old Zach Greinke (7-7, 122 IP, 122 Hits, 3.69 era, 1.30 WHIP, .265 BAA) or 26 year old Brian Bannister (14-10, 203 IP, 190 Hits, 96 K's, 3.95 era, 1.26 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or go to last place finishers San Francisco and try and pry 23 year old Matt Cain away (7-16, 200 IP, 173 Hits, 163 K's, 3.65 era, 1.26 WHIP, .235 BAA).

I could go on and on. But their are alot of #1 or #2 starters on bad teams that my be swapped for less of a blockbuster deal where we don't have to give up everything to get them.

Just my opinion. Solidying the middle of the starting rotation and then allowing our young guys to fill the last 2 slots, would help tremendously.

Great post :thumbup:


I agree with the basic concept however if we are to part with one of the big 4 or Hamilton I would like to have better than a 10million per year gil meche... It shouldn't be trading just for pure numbers. Potential, contract, and age should be key factors...

I would love to see the redlegs pick up Guthrie or Greinke. I think to get Greinke we could package together a few of our "B" prospects. Maybe a Lotzkar, Frazier, and a Maloney. I know that deal is wishful thinking but remove a Lotzkar or Frazier and add in a Jorge Cantu or Ryan Freel... It is just a jumping off point but it could be worked IMO.

Hey Meat
11-24-2007, 09:01 PM
get Paul lo Duca
I don't believe the hype on LoDuca

757690
11-25-2007, 12:26 AM
The thing about acquiring Santana is that any new team will have to pay him at least a 6 year $150M contract to keep him, according to Buster Olney. He gets $13.5M next year, so I really can't see the Reds willing to take on that much money for that many years, even for Santana.

*BaseClogger*
11-25-2007, 12:55 AM
The thing about acquiring Santana is that any new team will have to pay him at least a 6 year $150M contract to keep him, according to Buster Olney. He gets $13.5M next year, so I really can't see the Reds willing to take on that much money for that many years, even for Santana.

exactly why I would rather have Ian Snell. Cheap for severall more years and a much lower asking price...

kaldaniels
11-25-2007, 01:40 AM
From there, Heyman lists the teams we've all heard a thousand times as suitors for Santana: Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers. And he also lists their trade chips, which we've also heard plenty of times before.

My take is that the Twins won't accept anything less than two elite prospects and another one or two slightly lesser, but still high-profile talents. The teams with the best hitters might win out, since the Twins are stocked with pitching.

We simply are not one of the teams that could land Santana. He will go to a team with a really big market who can afford him, and has enough elite and high-profile position prospects. I think it is more likely that Krivsky manages to pull a trade for a Snell or a Garza starting pitcher.

I think we were talkin Ervin...

AmarilloRed
11-25-2007, 01:44 AM
We try and pick up a good starting pitcher, preferably by trade.

Bip Roberts
11-25-2007, 02:00 AM
Id like Willis but too hell with what hes going to require in a trade.

I just like his approach to the game and from all accounts hes a great club house guy.

ChatterRed
11-25-2007, 02:41 AM
I just think there are alot of #2's out there that could be had for the right reasonable price if Hamilton is included in the deal.

redsfanmia
11-25-2007, 03:07 PM
If the asking price for Bedard, Kazmir, and Peavy is too high.......the Reds could always go to those same teams second best starting pitcher and try and pry them away with a Hamilton plus offer. All stats listed are for 2007. Keep in mind, the goal is a #2 or #3 starter. Some of these guys are clearly #2's and some are #3's. What I like about most of them is that their numbers are already decent and their still young.

Such as instead of Baltimore's Bedard, ask about 28 year old Jeremy Guthrie (7-5, 175 IP, 165 Hits allowed, 123 K's, 3.70 era, 1.21 WHIP, .249 BAA).

Or instead of Kazmir from the Rays, ask about 26 year old James Shields (12-8, 215 IP, 202 Hits, 184 K's, 3.85 era, 1.11 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or instead of Peavy from the Padres, ask about 28 year old Chris Young (9-8, 173 IP, 118 Hits, 167 K's, 3.12 era, 1.10 WHIP, .192 BAA).

Or go to KC who needs everything to turn their team around and try and pry one of their 3 starters away - 29 year old Gil Meche (9-13, 216 IP, 218 Hits, 156 K's, 3.67 era, 1.30 WHIP, .263 BAA) or 24 year old Zach Greinke (7-7, 122 IP, 122 Hits, 3.69 era, 1.30 WHIP, .265 BAA) or 26 year old Brian Bannister (14-10, 203 IP, 190 Hits, 96 K's, 3.95 era, 1.26 WHIP, .247 BAA).

Or go to last place finishers San Francisco and try and pry 23 year old Matt Cain away (7-16, 200 IP, 173 Hits, 163 K's, 3.65 era, 1.26 WHIP, .235 BAA).

I could go on and on. But their are alot of #1 or #2 starters on bad teams that my be swapped for less of a blockbuster deal where we don't have to give up everything to get them.

Just my opinion. Solidying the middle of the starting rotation and then allowing our young guys to fill the last 2 slots, would help tremendously.

Why would lost place teams want to trade their best young and cheap pitchers? The Rays are talking about Kazmir because they dont want to pay him. I think the Reds should maybe go after a guy like Scott Olsen from the Marlins, I think Hamilton would be enough to pry him away. The guy is a talent and has burned some bridges in Florida and is ripe for a new start and I think could flourish here.

Krawhitham
11-25-2007, 03:28 PM
What does Wayne Krivsky do next

Trade Hamilton & Phillips for a couple below par middle relievers

757690
11-25-2007, 04:18 PM
Why would lost place teams want to trade their best young and cheap pitchers? The Rays are talking about Kazmir because they dont want to pay him. I think the Reds should maybe go after a guy like Scott Olsen from the Marlins, I think Hamilton would be enough to pry him away. The guy is a talent and has burned some bridges in Florida and is ripe for a new start and I think could flourish here.

Olsen would be a nice pick-up, but only because The Reds would not have to give up much to get him.

I am not even sure the Reds should include Hamilton in a deal for any pitcher, even Santana or Bedard. There is no justification for trading him for a unknown like Olsen.

Yes, Olsen had a great arm (and close to a 6 ERA), but so do dozens of other young, unproven prospects. The Rays would not even trade Joey Gathright for Olsen in 2006. If Olsen is available, I am sure the Marlins would take Freel for him in a heartbeat.

DannyB
11-25-2007, 08:16 PM
Next thing?
The 40 man is already full.

757690
11-25-2007, 08:46 PM
Next thing?
The 40 man is already full.

That is temporary. Someone has to go to make room for Cordero. Probably Buck Coats, or a trade.
The fact that they are waiting so long to have Cordero take his physical suggests that they are working on a trade. Hoping it's Stanton, but probably either Freel or Hatteberg for prospects.
Slight chance it's a big one, like Votto and a reliever for a #3 starter.

*BaseClogger*
11-25-2007, 11:47 PM
Buck Coats... ha!

Hopefully we can acquire a decent catching prospect...

AmarilloRed
11-26-2007, 12:07 AM
I believe the physical is scheduled for next Thursday.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
11-26-2007, 12:24 AM
I don't believe the hype on LoDucaThere is hype on LoDuca?

*BaseClogger*
11-26-2007, 12:31 AM
There is hype on LoDuca?

As hard as it is to beleive, some think very highly of Pauly Big Nuts...

AmarilloRed
11-26-2007, 12:55 AM
One thing he needs to determine is if he can get Adam Dunn signed to a LTC. It may be harder with the Torii Hunter signing.

*BaseClogger*
11-26-2007, 01:00 AM
One thing he needs to determine is if he can get Adam Dunn signed to a LTC. It may be harder with the Torii Hunter signing.

Amarillo, what do you think Dunn is worth? I say no more than $15 million per year...

BEETTLEBUG
11-26-2007, 01:22 AM
Why on Laduca do you like him for the REDS ?

AmarilloRed
11-26-2007, 12:00 PM
Amarillo, what do you think Dunn is worth? I say no more than $15 million per year...

Hard to say. Torii got 18 million, but he hit for a higher BA and plays better defense. Adam is 5 years younger, though, and that will be a factor. I am sure the Reds will mention his mediocre defense and low BA during negotiations, and they could get him for 14-16 million if he hasn't already decided to enter free agency.

mound_patrol
11-26-2007, 12:32 PM
What Krivsky will do and what I think he should do is probably different. It seems like the Reds front office is in "Win Now" mode and will try to add some kind of starter from either free agency of trade. If we go trade I'd target Bedard from the O's because they want hitting prospects in return. I'm much more inclined to give up Hamilton and Votto then I am Bailey and Cueto. If Krivsky decides to add a starter through free agency that scares me. I really hope they don't sign Silva. Instead I say go after a Matt Clement or Randy Wolf type player. Give them one year with maybe an option year with more gauranteed money then what the others are offering. I believe that's the smarter option because if they pan out they can let us win now while letting Cueto and Maloney continue to develop and improve. If they don't pan out then hopefully one of those two will be able to step in shortly. Signing a guy like Silva for 4 years only blocks our prospects in my opinion

Krawhitham
11-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Well he is not going to sign Kerry Wood next


According to ESPN Radio 1000, the Cubs have signed Kerry Wood to a one-year contract worth $4 million.

David Cubbedge
11-26-2007, 08:01 PM
Here is what will happen next:

The Reds will trade Josh Hamilton and Johnny Cueto to the Twins for Matt Garza during the Winter Meetings.

Would you guys like this deal?

Johnny Cueto is one heck of a commodity and really showed his greatness the last few years. I believe that Garza is the better pitcher right now, but Cueto has made steps toward that same elite status. In a deal like this, are we essentially trading one pitcher for another and throwing in a possible +.900 OPS outfielder?

Where I make the connection:

Obviously the Reds and Twins have had recent history in dealing with one another. The Twinkies need a center fielder in the worst way and Hamilton should be the cheapest and absolute best option out there. This is a classic find for the Twins if they do so. With Kevin Slowey and Francisco Liriano breaking into the rotation and the possibility to use Cueto by midseason, would Garza be missed that much? Especially when they get a really high ceiling outfielder to boost their offense?

I, for one, will hate this trade if it goes down. But I really think Hamilton is likely gone and will be packaged with a prospect for us to take on a SP. Garza is the type of pitcher likely targeted as well as he comes dirt cheap and has massive potential.

I usually don't throw these out there too often, but I see something similar to this being a possibility. We might as well get used to this deal proposal and hope it doesn't become anything worse.

Thoughts?

Bip Roberts
11-26-2007, 08:43 PM
Hamilton and Cueto for Garza not a chance in hell i would be ok with that.

757690
11-26-2007, 09:22 PM
I wouldn't trade either one straight up for Garza.
Anyway, moot point. I was wrong, the Twins will not sign Santana, but trade him. That means they are not listening to offers on any of their other pitchers.

BTW, with all this talk about acquiring Garza or Snell, or Olsen, why would the Reds want more unproven talent when they already have Bailey and Cueto? Either acquire a real proven #1, just because it is so hard to get one, or some inning eaters for the back of the rotation without giving up much. The Reds already have enough guys in between that.

AmarilloRed
11-26-2007, 10:12 PM
I think a Hamilton for Garza trade could be accepted. There is no way I could ever see Wayne trading both Hamilton and Cueto for Garza. As far as I know, Garza is still on the trading block. I would appreciate any information to the contrary.

757690
11-26-2007, 10:27 PM
From MLB.com Hot Stove Report

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071126&content_id=2307264&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Twins: If Santana indeed is expected to be pitching elsewhere next season, it may be time to throw some dirt on a rumor "that won't die," according to the St. Paul Pioneer Press -- Matt Garza to Tampa Bay for outfielder Delmon Young. The Twins wouldn't be looking to move any other starting pitchers -- even for a runner-up in the 2007 American League Rookie of the Year voting.

hippie07
11-26-2007, 10:59 PM
I think a Hamilton for Garza trade could be accepted. There is no way I could ever see Wayne trading both Hamilton and Cueto for Garza. As far as I know, Garza is still on the trading block. I would appreciate any information to the contrary.

"the next Mickey Mantle" for a #3 pitcher (prospect) ... I can't stomach it ... I hope WK has his sights set higher in exchange for Hamilton (or keeping him would be fine too)

*BaseClogger*
11-26-2007, 11:14 PM
I wouldn't trade either one straight up for Garza.
Anyway, moot point. I was wrong, the Twins will not sign Santana, but trade him. That means they are not listening to offers on any of their other pitchers.

BTW, with all this talk about acquiring Garza or Snell, or Olsen, why would the Reds want more unproven talent when they already have Bailey and Cueto? Either acquire a real proven #1, just because it is so hard to get one, or some inning eaters for the back of the rotation without giving up much. The Reds already have enough guys in between that.

ugh, Ian Snell is not unproven, and I am tired of him being lumped in the same class as Matt Garza... Snell is also an innings eater by the way, with 208 innings last year in 32 starts (6.5 innings per start)...

Degenerate39
11-26-2007, 11:15 PM
"the next Mickey Mantle" for a #3 pitcher (prospect) ... I can't stomach it ... I hope WK has his sights set higher in exchange for Hamilton (or keeping him would be fine too)

I've never heard Hamilton being compared to Mickey Mantle before. Pretty bold statement right there. In Mantle's career he had health problems but he was still a great player. Hamilton might go down the same path but I don't think he'd put up as good of numbers as Mickey did.

gedred69
11-26-2007, 11:19 PM
"the next Mickey Mantle" for a #3 pitcher (prospect) ... I can't stomach it ... I hope WK has his sights set higher in exchange for Hamilton (or keeping him would be fine too)

Yep. I give this guy up only for return value, and that's the way it is supposed to work. I got something you need, you got something I need. The Reds have some throw-ins that could be deal closers, but unless they get return value, Hamilton starts in CF, 3/31/08. Reds brought him this far, no need to give him up for a song and a dance. It was a roll of the dice that shows extreme promise. I don't care about injuries or fragility. The Reds are the organization that showcased his ability to be something special,----in the Big Leagues. They deserve something of equal value in return if they trade him, like a true #2-3 pitcher.

757690
11-26-2007, 11:45 PM
ugh, Ian Snell is not unproven, and I am tired of him being lumped in the same class as Matt Garza... Snell is also an innings eater by the way, with 208 innings last year in 32 starts (6.5 innings per start)...

I'll give you that. He is better than Garza, and he has gotten better every year. Still not in Bedard's, Kazmir's or Santana's class yet, though.
He's also a flyball pitcher who gives up his share of homers.
Still, if he can be had without giving up one of the big four, he would be a nice addition.

AmarilloRed
11-27-2007, 12:39 AM
From MLB.com Hot Stove Report

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071126&content_id=2307264&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Twins: If Santana indeed is expected to be pitching elsewhere next season, it may be time to throw some dirt on a rumor "that won't die," according to the St. Paul Pioneer Press -- Matt Garza to Tampa Bay for outfielder Delmon Young. The Twins wouldn't be looking to move any other starting pitchers -- even for a runner-up in the 2007 American League Rookie of the Year voting.

Good information. It does leave the door open in the case that Santana is not traded; even though that seems a remote possibility with the large gulf that exists between Santana and the Twins in negotiations.

Handofdeath
11-27-2007, 03:21 AM
I would offer the Royals Josh Hamilton and see if I could get Greinke. The Royals are DYING for an OF with power, although they prefer a right handed bat. The Reds need a good starter in the worst way. Both players come with significant risks but both have significant talent as well. It just makes sense for both teams.

redsfanmia
11-27-2007, 03:15 PM
"the next Mickey Mantle" for a #3 pitcher (prospect) ... I can't stomach it ... I hope WK has his sights set higher in exchange for Hamilton (or keeping him would be fine too)

The only thing Hamilton and Mantle have in common is they are/were addicts.

mound_patrol
11-27-2007, 03:24 PM
The only thing Hamilton and Mantle have in common is they are/were addicts.

Yeah, Mantle would have been the greatest player in baseball history had he been able to stay healthy. Hamilton has some great potential but lets not go overboard.

hippie07
11-27-2007, 03:38 PM
Well - I'm not the 1st one to make that comparison..I've read it several times in several places .. but really it's just in light spirit.

I do feel, however, that Josh Hamilton has as much potential to be a superstar than Bailey or Bruce ... I'm not so sure why everyone says "Bruce is untouchable" but Hamilton is not ... it's evidently the drug issue, because the injury issue is not a valid one considering the man had set on his bum for 4 years (or whatever) and then tried to play a whole year's worth of baseball.. I'll give him another year before I say he's injury-prone... it's not like the guy is Freel or something and is diving into walls.. I think that "injury-prone" isn't fair. So, the real issue is .. will he relapse into drug use... I think those chances are slim.. the kid seems devoted and has everything to lose plus he's drug tested like what was it 3 times a week, so there would be immediate consequences if he did use ... so, I don't thinks that a legitimate concern either. Josh Hamilton is "the natural" and I will sweat him putting up huge numbers for other teams much more than I would seeing Bailey do it.

I agree w/ an earlier poster - I'm glued to the TV when Josh comes to bat. He's amazing.

redsfanmia
11-27-2007, 05:45 PM
Yeah, Mantle would have been the greatest player in baseball history had he been able to stay healthy. Hamilton has some great potential but lets not go overboard.

And if he didnt drink to excess.

757690
11-27-2007, 06:38 PM
I've never heard Hamilton being compared to Mickey Mantle before. Pretty bold statement right there. In Mantle's career he had health problems but he was still a great player. Hamilton might go down the same path but I don't think he'd put up as good of numbers as Mickey did.

He reminds me of Mantle with his swing, it's kinda spooky how similar they are. He also has the same mix of speed and power that Mantle had.
Who knows if he will put numbers like Mickey Mantle or Mickey Brantley, but I don't think the comparisons are out of line at all.

roby
11-27-2007, 07:53 PM
Well - I'm not the 1st one to make that comparison..I've read it several times in several places .. but really it's just in light spirit.

I do feel, however, that Josh Hamilton has as much potential to be a superstar than Bailey or Bruce ... I'm not so sure why everyone says "Bruce is untouchable" but Hamilton is not ... it's evidently the drug issue, because the injury issue is not a valid one considering the man had set on his bum for 4 years (or whatever) and then tried to play a whole year's worth of baseball.. I'll give him another year before I say he's injury-prone... it's not like the guy is Freel or something and is diving into walls.. I think that "injury-prone" isn't fair. So, the real issue is .. will he relapse into drug use... I think those chances are slim.. the kid seems devoted and has everything to lose plus he's drug tested like what was it 3 times a week, so there would be immediate consequences if he did use ... so, I don't thinks that a legitimate concern either. Josh Hamilton is "the natural" and I will sweat him putting up huge numbers for other teams much more than I would seeing Bailey do it.

I agree w/ an earlier poster - I'm glued to the TV when Josh comes to bat. He's amazing.

The hippie has picked up on something here that I wish other people would consider. Hamilton was on the DL last year because of laying out of baseball for years (it's a long, gruelling season!), and because of flukey illnesses that had nothing to do with physical injuries. It is way too soon to conclude that he is "injury prone." And my opinion is, it is way too soon to trade him...unless you are completely bowled over by an offer that is too good to be true.

757690
11-27-2007, 08:19 PM
If Hamilton is traded, even for a top of the line starting pitcher, I think it will be remembered along with the Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas and the Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio trades.

In both those cases, the pitcher received was a top of the line starter. Broglio had won 20 games, and Pappas had averaged 14 wins over his first 8 full seasons. But all anyone remembers is what Robinson and Brock did with their new clubs.

mound_patrol
11-27-2007, 10:29 PM
If Hamilton is traded, even for a top of the line starting pitcher, I think it will be remembered along with the Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas and the Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio trades.

In both those cases, the pitcher received was a top of the line starter. Broglio had won 20 games, and Pappas had averaged 14 wins over his first 8 full seasons. But all anyone remembers is what Robinson and Brock did with their new clubs.

That may be so, but we are trying to win. And what this team needs more than anything is pitching. So if you get an ace of the staff then you have to do the trade. We have other guys that can step in if Hamilton is gone, but we are lacking severly in the pitching area.