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View Full Version : Redszone Community Prospect Vote: #9



dougdirt
11-27-2007, 11:22 AM
Vote for the player who you think is the Reds #9 prospect (the best prospect who is not yet on the list). We will go with this as far as you guys want to take it.

I will post a new list every 2 days with 10-15 options to vote on.

If you feel like making an argument on why a guy should be voted here, feel free to vote and state why you voted for that player.

If there is someone that is not currently listed as an option to vote on, vote for 'other' then just state who you want to vote for in the thread.

If there is anyone you would like to see as an option on the next poll, just say so and if they garner enough support, they will be placed on the next poll. Guys with the lowest amount of votes will usually be removed for the next few guys who were talked about in the previous thread.


Prospect 1 - Jay Bruce
Prospect 2 - Homer Bailey
Prospect 3 - Johnny Cueto
Prospect 4 - Joey Votto
Prospect 5 - Todd Frazier
Prospect 6 - Drew Stubbs
Prospect 7 - Matt Maloney
Prospect 8 - Josh Roenicke

Benihana
11-27-2007, 11:27 AM
where's the poll? and how far down are we going to go? 15?

dougdirt
11-27-2007, 11:29 AM
where's the poll? and how far down are we going to go? 15?

It actuallys posts the post then lets you make the poll. Making the poll takes an additional 5 minutes or so. We were planning on going at least 30 deep with the prospect list, someone suggested 40. I guess we will see how it goes and as long as there is interest still we will keep it going.

Kc61
11-27-2007, 11:37 AM
Now it gets interesting.

My next two guys are Mesoraco and Francisco.

Francisco hit .268 at A ball as a 19-20 year old. He had 25 homers and 90 RBI. He struck out a lot and had very few walks. If he improves his plate discipline just a tad, can you imagine what numbers he can put up? Could be awesome with a little improvement.

But I'm voting Mesoraco here because such a highly touted first draft choice deserves some mention in the top ten, even though his first few months didn't result in top numbers.

Go Devin.

Benihana
11-27-2007, 11:43 AM
It actuallys posts the post then lets you make the poll. Making the poll takes an additional 5 minutes or so. We were planning on going at least 30 deep with the prospect list, someone suggested 40. I guess we will see how it goes and as long as there is interest still we will keep it going.

Gotcha- thanks.

My next five looks like this:

Travis Wood
Daniel Dorn
Kyle Lotzkar
Devin Mesoraco
Juan Francisco

dougdirt
11-27-2007, 11:54 AM
Went with Travis Wood here.

Left Handed pitcher
Low 90's fastball
Best change up in the minor leagues
Developing curveball

Even in an injured year, his strikeout rate was still 10.5 per 9 innings. He is back and healthy now after pitching well in Fall Instructional League. Easy choice for me.

M2
11-27-2007, 12:07 PM
Went with Travis Wood here.

Left Handed pitcher
Low 90's fastball
Best change up in the minor leagues
Developing curveball

Even in an injured year, his strikeout rate was still 10.5 per 9 innings. He is back and healthy now after pitching well in Fall Instructional League. Easy choice for me.

He's my pick too. I'm a sucker for a southpaw with a great change.

Prf15
11-27-2007, 12:29 PM
Danny Dorn here. The guy looks to be the real deal, he hits for average, some pop and gets on base.

AmarilloRed
11-27-2007, 12:33 PM
I really thought Danny Dorn showed a lot last year.

Kc61
11-27-2007, 12:47 PM
I think Dorn can have a good career as a platoon outfielder. Guys like that can be very valuable if they can hit, and it seems like he can definitely hit. I have him in the 10-15 prospect range, which says a lot for the Reds system.

Prf15
11-27-2007, 01:02 PM
I think Dorn can have a good career as a platoon outfielder. Guys like that can be very valuable if they can hit, and it seems like he can definitely hit. I have him in the 10-15 prospect range, which says a lot for the Reds system.


If he keeps hitting he will be more than a platoon player.

dougdirt
11-27-2007, 01:06 PM
If he keeps hitting he will be more than a platoon player.

In Sarasota his OPS against lefties was .577 and in Chattanooga it was .650. He absolutely murders righties, but against lefties....

M2
11-27-2007, 01:20 PM
In Sarasota his OPS against lefties was .577 and in Chattanooga it was .650. He absolutely murders righties, but against lefties....

Basically a Brad Hawpe type of player, with the obvious caveat that it's a long way from being that type of player in the minors to being Brad Hawpe in the majors.

RedsManRick
11-27-2007, 01:49 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it fairly common for young lefty sluggers to struggle against lefties early in their careers? That said, even if continues to struggle, we're looking at a guy who absolutely destroys righties. The name that came to mind for me was Trot Nixon. I just don't see how any of the guys who has yet to have sustained success can be ranked above him.

I like Travis Wood too, but a solid year in A Ball followed by an injury ridden poor year in the FSL doesn't knock my socks off.

Prf15
11-27-2007, 01:52 PM
In Sarasota his OPS against lefties was .577 and in Chattanooga it was .650. He absolutely murders righties, but against lefties....

I guess I should look at splits more.:all_cohol

Kc61
11-27-2007, 01:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it fairly common for young lefty sluggers to struggle against lefties early in their careers? That said, even if continues to struggle, we're looking at a guy who absolutely destroys righties. The name that came to mind for me was Trot Nixon. I just don't see how any of the guys who has yet to have sustained success can be ranked above him.

I like Travis Wood too, but a solid year in A Ball followed by an injury ridden poor year in the FSL doesn't knock my socks off.


It's also common for young lefty sluggers never to be able to hit lefty pitching very well. That's ok, some guys just need a platoon. Scott Hatteberg platoons and Dorn would be very successful if he develops into another Hatteberg type, and I have high hopes that he can, perhaps with more power and (likely) lower OBP.

As for sustained success, at some point you have to go with the scouts. If I were a GM, I'd never trade a Mesoraco for some of the "sustained success" guys in the system. His upside is too great. I agree that pure, raw ability -- without the good numbers -- shouldn't rank in the top five, but at choice nine. . . .

RedsManRick
11-27-2007, 02:05 PM
For full disclosure on Dorn in 2007:



A+ AB AVG OBP SLG OPS BABIP
vs. LH 87 0.207 0.290 0.287 0.577 0.246
vs. RH 250 760.304 0.381 0.512 0.893 0.348

AA
vs. LH 10 0.100 0.250 0.400 0.650 0.000
vs. RH 80 0.338 0.443 0.700 1.143 0.370

That zero BABIP in AA vs. LH is because his only hit was a homer.

Benihana
11-27-2007, 02:06 PM
As for sustained success, at some point you have to go with the scouts. If I were a GM, I'd never trade a Mesoraco for some of the "sustained success" guys in the system. His upside is too great. I agree that pure, raw ability -- without the good numbers -- shouldn't rank in the top five, but at choice nine. . . .

You do have a point there. I don't believe I would trade Mesoraco for Dorn or Roenicke at this point, despite having those two ranked higher. However, it is tough for me to award a guy who has never played a game above rookie ball, let alone been successful in rookie ball, Top 10 status- especially in a "deep" system.

This is the main reason why I believe in only ranking prospects who have played in A ball or higher. The others I like to group in a category called "Too early to tell" or "Keep an eye on"

M2
11-27-2007, 05:33 PM
This is the main reason why I believe in only ranking prospects who have played in A ball or higher. The others I like to group in a category called "Too early to tell" or "Keep an eye on"

That's my general take too. Also, I find it fairly impossible to make a case for Mesoraco over Lotzkar at this moment. That could change next year, but Lotzkar stepped into pro ball and showed something. Mesoraco didn't.

Highlifeman21
11-27-2007, 05:47 PM
At this point, it's academic or arguing semantics how you wanna rank our prospects.

It was probably a moot point after #4.

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2007, 06:11 PM
Travis Wood.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2007, 06:19 PM
I just don't get why people continue to overlook Viola, am I missing something? The only reasonable knock I could possibly come up with is he is 24 yrs old. The only other thing is that he isn't doing well in the AFL currently, but the guy had already pitched 82.1 Innings out of the pen this season prior to the AFL. And as far as the AFL goes he has had 3 bad appearances the other 6 he was near flawless, 4 of those 6 flawless outings have all been his most recent 4 outings which suggest he has worked out whatever problems he was having when he 1st got there.

His lines are quite impressive as well coupled with some buzz I had heard earlier in the season (someone here who attended a game) about scouts in the stands were lifting their radar guns every time he threw a pitch. No one else just Viola. And from all reports it wasn't to see if he could get it above 90, but likely to dbl check how far above 90 he was tossing it at. That's pure speculation on my part but if he has these #'s I highly doubt he is tossing soft stuff up there.

Combined 2007 #'s A,A+,AA
82.1 IP
55 Hits
5 HR's
94 K's
30 BB's
1.42 ERA
1.03 WHIP

10.4 K's Per Nine
3/1 K/BB Ratio

And he is LH??? Sounds like for whatever reason (not enough fan exposure?) he isn't getting his due, especially if his pen-mate Roenicke just went ahead of him.

GoReds33
11-27-2007, 06:27 PM
I went with Waring. He has such good power, I couldn't overlook him. A close second would be Wood on my list. Thank God Roenicke finally won.

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2007, 06:57 PM
MR, I'm probably the biggest Pedro Viola fan on here. Check my post history, I've been a fan of his since very early in the season. IIRC, I even mentioned off season that Viola could be someone to watch for this year. With that said, I just think some of the others are better prospects. Viola will probably be my number ten or eleven guy.

HBP
11-27-2007, 08:00 PM
Went with Mesoraco because of his high ceiling, but believe Rosales or Waring could also take it.

mth123
11-27-2007, 08:37 PM
I went way against the board here and voted for Adam Rosales. It was very close between he and Dorn for me, but Rosales likely role of multi-position super-sub makes the pop in his bat very valuable. Dorn may actually be a better hitter overall but at a corner OF spot he may struggle to actually crack a line-up. The bar is set much higher for corner OF.

I like Wood but want to see if his slight build 6'0" and 165 LBS can hold up. These guys are starting to get a little interchangeable and rankings are probably more a matter of what each poster tends to focus on versus actual talent difference. I do think that Wood may have the best upside of anyone left.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2007, 09:19 PM
MR, I'm probably the biggest Pedro Viola fan on here. Check my post history, I've been a fan of his since very early in the season. IIRC, I even mentioned off season that Viola could be someone to watch for this year. With that said, I just think some of the others are better prospects. Viola will probably be my number ten or eleven guy.

So you just think he has a lower ceiling? Or is it more along the lines of him having a lesser impact because he will be a bullpen arm?

OnBaseMachine
11-27-2007, 10:06 PM
So you just think he has a lower ceiling? Or is it more along the lines of him having a lesser impact because he will be a bullpen arm?

I think he has fine major league career ahead of him. In fact, I've compared him in the past to Damaso Marte, who happens to be a very good lefty for the Pirates. On MY top ten list, Viola would rank behind Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Votto, Frazier, Roenicke, and Wood, but ahead of Stubbs, Pelland, and Dorn.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2007, 10:30 PM
I think he has fine major league career ahead of him. In fact, I've compared him in the past to Damaso Marte, who happens to be a very good lefty for the Pirates. On MY top ten list, Viola would rank behind Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Votto, Frazier, Roenicke, and Wood, but ahead of Stubbs, Pelland, and Dorn.

I can see that. Wood I have always liked but with the issues he has had semi-recently I have backed off just a tad and w/ Viola having zipped right up to AA and still being dominant I just felt that he has a slight edge on Wood. And I think he has more polish and he's 1 yr younger than Roenicke with better #'s accross the board at nearly all levels. Roenicke may be a slightly better prospect for us with his penchant for getting GB's but Viola may be the better pro regardless of where he plays.

My top ten-ish in order would be:

Bruce
Bailey
Votto (ever so slightly over Cueto, in fact I'm waffling as I type)
Cueto
Stubbs
Frazier
Viola
Wood
Roenicke
Pelland
Dorn/Rosales

*BaseClogger*
11-27-2007, 10:34 PM
I just don't get why people continue to overlook Viola, am I missing something? The only reasonable knock I could possibly come up with is he is 24 yrs old. The only other thing is that he isn't doing well in the AFL currently, but the guy had already pitched 82.1 Innings out of the pen this season prior to the AFL. And as far as the AFL goes he has had 3 bad appearances the other 6 he was near flawless, 4 of those 6 flawless outings have all been his most recent 4 outings which suggest he has worked out whatever problems he was having when he 1st got there.

His lines are quite impressive as well coupled with some buzz I had heard earlier in the season (someone here who attended a game) about scouts in the stands were lifting their radar guns every time he threw a pitch. No one else just Viola. And from all reports it wasn't to see if he could get it above 90, but likely to dbl check how far above 90 he was tossing it at. That's pure speculation on my part but if he has these #'s I highly doubt he is tossing soft stuff up there.

Combined 2007 #'s A,A+,AA
82.1 IP
55 Hits
5 HR's
94 K's
30 BB's
1.42 ERA
1.03 WHIP

10.4 K's Per Nine
3/1 K/BB Ratio

And he is LH??? Sounds like for whatever reason (not enough fan exposure?) he isn't getting his due, especially if his pen-mate Roenicke just went ahead of him.

Well, as you alluded a 24 year-old *RELIEF PITCHER* that started the season in A ball is a bad start. Couple that with too many walks and it should be obvious he isn't a top ten prospect in a deep farm system...

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2007, 10:42 PM
Well, as you alluded a 24 year-old that started the season in A ball is a bad start. Couple that with too many walks and it should be obvious he isn't a top ten prospect in a deep farm system...

Well I will assume you didn't vote for Roenicke then because there is virtually no difference. I understand Roenicke was converted to pitching not long ago however Viola only has 2 pro seasons under his belt as well. And as far as walks go Roenicke walks more guys than does Viola.

*BaseClogger*
11-27-2007, 11:01 PM
Well I will assume you didn't vote for Roenicke then because there is virtually no difference. I understand Roenicke was converted to pitching not long ago however Viola only has 2 pro seasons under his belt as well. And as far as walks go Roenicke walks more guys than does Viola.

No.

I continue to vote for Travis Wood. As I added in an edit to my last post, I don't think you can be a top prospect at relief pitcher unless you completely overwhelm (total package). Any weakness at all to me means that as a relief pitcher you're not a top prospect. I know you are going to point out that Travis Wood also has control problems, so just call me a sucker for a left-handed STARTER with the stuff he has...

Ron Madden
11-28-2007, 04:19 AM
Going out on a limb again but I still like Sam LeCure.

camisadelgolf
11-28-2007, 04:33 AM
I just don't get why people continue to overlook Viola, am I missing something?

I like Roenicke and Viola pretty much equally; however, I did pretty much everything I could to see that Roenicke didn't get voted as high he was. They're the two best relief pitching prospects in the system, in my opinion, but 60 innings per year with a 2.50 ERA isn't nearly as helpful as, say, 550 at-bats per year with an .850 OPS or 200 innings per year with a 3.50 ERA.

Mario-Rijo
11-28-2007, 01:43 PM
I like Roenicke and Viola pretty much equally; however, I did pretty much everything I could to see that Roenicke didn't get voted as high he was. They're the two best relief pitching prospects in the system, in my opinion, but 60 innings per year with a 2.50 ERA isn't nearly as helpful as, say, 550 at-bats per year with an .850 OPS or 200 innings per year with a 3.50 ERA.

Certainly I get that end of it. However I am just not as convinced on Dorn, Wood or even Roenicke reaching the bigs and doing those things you said above more than I am Viola. I mean for example Dorn right now seems to be projecting to be a LF who is the RHP hitting part of a platoon. If that's the case he's not going to help us much or anytime soon what with having Dunn out there. Sure he could come off the bench but if that were too happen where do we get more than say 150 PA's for him. Wood has to shake that injury bug just to move forward and Roenicke at times seems to resemble Luke Hudson, Viola has had a some BB's himself but it's not at that rate.


But I guess that's just my opinion so there it is.

Redman15
11-28-2007, 03:33 PM
These guy's have Roenicke 5th and Viola 10th. Heres the link.
http://www.getsportsinfo.com/index.asp?page=baseball/featurearticles/reds/112807

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 03:40 PM
These guy's have Roenicke 5th and Viola 10th. Heres the link.
http://www.getsportsinfo.com/index.asp?page=baseball/featurearticles/reds/112807

I sent a long email to them. Lots of inaccurate information in that article.....

Brad Salmon is the Reds #4 pitching prospect.... that is all you need to know about that list.

AdamDunn
11-28-2007, 06:19 PM
Went with Travis Wood here.

Left Handed pitcher
Low 90's fastball
Best change up in the minor leagues
Developing curveball

Even in an injured year, his strikeout rate was still 10.5 per 9 innings. He is back and healthy now after pitching well in Fall Instructional League. Easy choice for me.

I heard his mid 90's fastball is back!!! per BA

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 06:24 PM
I heard his mid 90's fastball is back!!! per BA

Link me.... I haven't seen that. I saw where they said his fastball was back to where it was, but it didn't specify speeds. I have to assume they meant in the 90-93 range where he was at.

OnBaseMachine
11-28-2007, 06:39 PM
Link me.... I haven't seen that. I saw where they said his fastball was back to where it was, but it didn't specify speeds. I have to assume they meant in the 90-93 range where he was at.

I read that too fast. I thought it said lick me.

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 06:43 PM
I read that too fast. I thought it said lick me.

Head out of the gutter my friend.... :D

Superdude
11-28-2007, 07:44 PM
I heard his mid 90's fastball is back!!! per BA

Was this when they saw him last season? That's good to hear. His stuff is still good even when he's throwing 88-90MPH, but I was getting a little worried he was falling into the crafty soft tosser category.

gedred69
11-28-2007, 08:03 PM
I voted for Dorn-----again, he should be moved up a few notches!!!

Mario-Rijo
11-28-2007, 08:14 PM
I sent a long email to them. Lots of inaccurate information in that article.....

Brad Salmon is the Reds #4 pitching prospect.... that is all you need to know about that list.

No question those guys are way off in terms of assessing alot of the players in this organization big leaguers included. I read an article there last week or so that the guy said we should cut Matt Belisle. :bash:

AdamDunn
11-28-2007, 08:23 PM
Link me.... I haven't seen that. I saw where they said his fastball was back to where it was, but it didn't specify speeds. I have to assume they meant in the 90-93 range where he was at.

well then... that screws what I said. I heard it via OBM.


Good news from the chat is that Travis Wood had a good instructional league showing and his velocity is back to where it was before.

M2
11-28-2007, 09:14 PM
I sent a long email to them. Lots of inaccurate information in that article.....

Brad Salmon is the Reds #4 pitching prospect.... that is all you need to know about that list.

Now be kind. I've seen Miguel Perez listed as the Reds #4 prospect before. :devil:

Good people can make mistakes.

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 09:21 PM
Now be kind. I've seen Miguel Perez listed as the Reds #4 prospect before. :devil:

Good people can make mistakes.

Miguel Perez wasn't a 28 year old reliever in AAA either.... I still like me some Miguel Perez though.

M2
11-28-2007, 09:35 PM
Miguel Perez wasn't a 28 year old reliever in AAA either.... I still like me some Miguel Perez though.

Miguel may yet be a 28-year-old reliever in AAA.

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 09:37 PM
Miguel may yet be a 28-year-old reliver in AAA.

Touche.

But I doubt it.

Kc61
11-28-2007, 09:55 PM
Isn't this poll over yet? I'm anxious for the Dorn/Mesoraco square off to complete the top ten. I'm going for Devin with the high ceiling.

*BaseClogger*
11-28-2007, 10:11 PM
Yeah I feel bad for Carlos Fisher so lets move on to 10 so I can vote for him!

dougdirt
11-28-2007, 10:15 PM
Isn't this poll over yet? I'm anxious for the Dorn/Mesoraco square off to complete the top ten. I'm going for Devin with the high ceiling.

Tomorrow morning a new one goes up.

camisadelgolf
11-29-2007, 03:14 AM
Brad Salmon doesn't even qualify as a rookie anymore, iirc.

camisadelgolf
11-29-2007, 03:20 AM
Certainly I get that end of it. However I am just not as convinced on Dorn, Wood or even Roenicke reaching the bigs and doing those things you said above more than I am Viola. I mean for example Dorn right now seems to be projecting to be a LF who is the RHP hitting part of a platoon. If that's the case he's not going to help us much or anytime soon what with having Dunn out there. Sure he could come off the bench but if that were too happen where do we get more than say 150 PA's for him. Wood has to shake that injury bug just to move forward and Roenicke at times seems to resemble Luke Hudson, Viola has had a some BB's himself but it's not at that rate.


But I guess that's just my opinion so there it is.

I weigh the likelihood of a player reaching his ceiling in how I rate prospects. Juan Francisco is obviously one of the most physically gifted prospects the Reds have, but I really doubt he'll get over his lack of plate discipline, and therefore, I would barely rate him in my top 25. I think Travis Wood is a higher ceiling than Matt Maloney, but as a prospect, I'd put Maloney slightly ahead of Wood right now. If Wood has a successful 2008, depending on how successful it is, I think he could shoot into the Reds' top five prospects.