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NorrisHopper30
11-28-2007, 05:22 PM
Johan Demands Changed?

In this post written at 11am today, I outlined the seven or so clubs with a shot at acquiring Twins ace Johan Santana. However the acquisition of Delmon Young, Brendan Harris, and Jason Pridie from the Rays changes everything.

First, the loss of Matt Garza lessens the chances of trading Santana at least a little bit. The Twins have pitching depth, but that'd be 40% of their 2007 rotation gone. It was probably always the case, but it's definite now that if the Twins trade Santana this winter they need a very good MLB-ready starter in return.

Second, the Twins no longer need any outfielders. Sure, they could add another center fielder to be safe or even move Michael Cuddyer back to third base. But in my mind third base becomes the primary need for the Twins.

So now Bill Smith should be looking for an elite young hurler and a similar young third baseman. The Yankees and Red Sox can't offer that. The Mets, Mariners, and Cubs don't have it either. The Angels might - Nick Adenhart and Brandon Wood. The Dodgers could pull it off too, with Andy LaRoche and Chad Billingsley. How about a wild card like the Reds? They've got Homer Bailey and Edwin Encarnacion. And I imagine the Twins would find a way to work Jay Bruce in if they could get him. -mlbtraderumors.com


Matt Clement to the Reds is a possibility I hadn't considered. Clement did pitch for Dusty Baker with the Cubs.-mlbtraderumors.com

NEW

While the Rangers have a touch of interest in Adam Dunn and Coco Crisp, they prefer the idea of acquiring a young bat. Names they like: Fernando Martinez, Carlos Gomez, Carlos Gonzalez, and Matt Kemp. Sullivan notes that the Rangers have talked to the Reds about Josh Hamilton.-mlbtraderumors.com

Thoughts?

AdamDunn
11-28-2007, 05:25 PM
Unless we sign him to 5 years $100 and we give them nothing more than Homer, Edwin, and Maloney or something of that nature. Bruce should be off limits and no two of the top four should go to them for Santana.

jmble
11-28-2007, 05:26 PM
I would hate to give up Bruce, but I am still a proponent of trading prospects (no matter how good) for one of the best starting pitcher in baseball right now. Especially when there is at least a possibility of contending this year.

I would definitely be willing to do Homer and EE on the condition we could work out some kind of deal with Santana.

I would try like crazy not to give up Bruce. I would rather throw in Hamilton and keep Bruce. (I know, completely the opposite of what I wrote above)

GoReds33
11-28-2007, 05:28 PM
Jay Bruce is way too good to give up for Santana. Granted Santana is a stud, but one year isn't enough. Bruce is sure to be a MLB star for years to come.

*BaseClogger*
11-28-2007, 06:09 PM
mlbtraderumors also mentioned that the Texas Rangers have been looking at Josh Hamilton. Who whould we want from them? I can already see Krivsky pulling a Hamilton for Padilla swap:rolleyes:

steig
11-28-2007, 06:17 PM
I'd rather trade for Haren than Santana. While I believe Santana is better, Haren is not far behind and his salary is still controlled by the club and arbitration.

Bip Roberts
11-28-2007, 06:18 PM
Santana only being 1 year and having his numbers going downhill dont interest me too much.

NorrisHopper30
11-28-2007, 06:37 PM
I'd rather trade for Haren than Santana. While I believe Santana is better, Haren is not far behind and his salary is still controlled by the club and arbitration.

I completely agree with you. You can't go wrong with Oakland pitching, and I think we would have to give up much less for Haren than Santana.

Bip Roberts
11-28-2007, 06:41 PM
Yea id rather trade for Haren, Bedard, or Kazmir, id probably even give up more to get thsoe guys than I would for Santana

redsfanmia
11-28-2007, 07:02 PM
You can't go wrong with Oakland pitching

Mark Mulder and Kirk Sarloos say hello.

Bip Roberts
11-28-2007, 07:03 PM
Sarloos was never good

NorrisHopper30
11-28-2007, 07:29 PM
Mark Mulder and Kirk Sarloos say hello.

Were they traded for or signed in FA?

Doro
11-28-2007, 07:38 PM
Jay Bruce is way too good to give up for Santana. Granted Santana is a stud, but one year isn't enough. Bruce is sure to be a MLB star for years to come.


Jay Bruce is way too good to give up for the best pitcher in baseball? c'mon Bruce hasnt even played a major league game. Unless Bruce is gunna hit .360 with 50 Hrs every year this is next to a no brainer. Give them Bruce, Bailey, and EE for Santana in a heartbeat if we are willing to give him big time money to stick around for a few years. The Reds have NEVER had a pitcher at Santana's level........ this is the kinda pitcher we need to win. Imagine Santana to go along with Harang.

ED44
11-28-2007, 07:40 PM
For the money and talent that it would take to get Santana (they are asking for Ellsbury & Buchholz plus others from the Red Sox), I think it would be in the Reds best interest to look at Haren or Bedard. I really think we could get Bedard without having to give up Bailey or Cueto. The O's need hitting and we have some to spare. Getting an ace like Bedard while also keeping our best pitching prospects would be a major accomplishment for Wayne/Reds.

Bip Roberts
11-28-2007, 07:43 PM
Jay Bruce is way too good to give up for the best pitcher in baseball? c'mon Bruce hasnt even played a major league game. Unless Bruce is gunna hit .360 with 50 Hrs every year this is next to a no brainer. Give them Bruce, Bailey, and EE for Santana in a heartbeat if we are willing to give him big time money to stick around for a few years. The Reds have NEVER had a pitcher at Santana's level........ this is the kinda pitcher we need to win.

I dont like Santanas work load honestly, his numbers are kinda sliding and hes been a freaking work horse. I could see him falling off quickly in a couple years.

BEETTLEBUG
11-28-2007, 07:52 PM
ED44,
Would you rather Reds get Haren from A"s or Bedard from O"s

redsfanmia
11-28-2007, 07:59 PM
Were they traded for or signed in FA?

Mulder was traded and Sarloos signed as a FA. I just dont understand all the love for anything Oakland. How many WS appearances have a Billy Beane lead team had?

757690
11-28-2007, 08:19 PM
ED44,
Would you rather Reds get Haren from A"s or Bedard from O"s


Bedard. He worked with Mazzone, and nearly every pitcher who has come into their own after working with him, has stayed healthy and good.
A's pitchers seem to come back to earth after leaving there.

Redus
11-28-2007, 08:34 PM
Jay Bruce is way too good to give up for the best pitcher in baseball? c'mon Bruce hasnt even played a major league game. Unless Bruce is gunna hit .360 with 50 Hrs every year this is next to a no brainer. Give them Bruce, Bailey, and EE for Santana in a heartbeat if we are willing to give him big time money to stick around for a few years. The Reds have NEVER had a pitcher at Santana's level........ this is the kinda pitcher we need to win. Imagine Santana to go along with Harang.

Bruce, Bailey, and ED E? No Way!!!! Mario Soto says hi! He was that decades Santana.

hippie07
11-28-2007, 08:39 PM
Bailey and EdE, and others (not part of the big 4) I'd do, but only if we could have a contract negotiating window. I'd rather have Bedard or Kazmir (looks like Rays are building something though and probably won't part w/ him), but if the Reds get Santana - they better be ready to do what it takes to make a legitimate playoff push next year....

Doro
11-28-2007, 09:00 PM
Bruce, Bailey, and ED E? No Way!!!! Mario Soto says hi! He was that decades Santana.

Doro
11-28-2007, 09:01 PM
Bruce, Bailey, and ED E? No Way!!!! Mario Soto says hi! He was that decades Santana.

3 unproven players for a Cy Young type pitcher.....

Bip Roberts
11-28-2007, 09:23 PM
3 unproven players for a Cy Young type pitcher.....

That would be a chance I would be willing to take if we had a yankee like payroll

NorrisHopper30
11-28-2007, 09:54 PM
In my eyes we'd be trading 3-4 players that could each have solid futures for a Cy Young pitcher that imo has a great chance of throwing his arm out. He's thrown a ridiculous amount of innings the last 3 years.


As for the Bedard v Haren argument they are both pretty much equal pitchers but Bedard gets more K's - which I believe would make him a more effective pitcher than Haren at GABP.

Haren has had 3 years of 200+ innings and hasn't had any problems but Bedard seems to only throw 170-180 a year and could have injury problems which could give a good argument to Haren. Haren's Ks have gone up each year as well.

*BaseClogger*
11-28-2007, 09:57 PM
Mark Mulder and Kirk Sarloos say hello.

as does Barry Zito

EDIT: remember how hes was gonna dominate the NL becuase he was used to the AL?

Number_Fourteen
11-28-2007, 10:01 PM
The Reds have NEVER had a pitcher at Santana's level.

Tom Terrific says, "hi" :wave:

ED44
11-28-2007, 11:20 PM
Beettlebug,

I prefer Bedard. Bedard would give us a lefty in the rotation that we could put in between Harang and Arroyo. However, if we got either I would be absolutely thrilled.

*BaseClogger*
11-28-2007, 11:21 PM
I prefer Bedard. Bedard would give us a lefty in the rotation that we could put in between Harang and Arroyo. However, if we got either I would be absolutely thrilled.

his strikeouts would help too

roby
11-29-2007, 12:55 AM
his strikeouts would help too

How about adam Dunn and a prospect or two for Bedard?

ChatterRed
11-29-2007, 12:57 AM
I don't want Santana either. Financially it is suicide for the Reds. There are far too many other young quality pitchers out there that won't be getting big contracts for another 3 years or so that the Reds could make a trade for and that is smart for a small market club.

BLEEDS
11-29-2007, 02:09 AM
A's pitchers seem to come back to earth after leaving there.

Yeah, whatever happened to that Aaron Harang fellow?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

fewfirstchoice
11-29-2007, 03:21 AM
Baileyor Cueto,EE,Maloney,Janish,Hopper,and Coffey or Magic Man for Santana and Rincon.

Keppinger can play 3B while Santana can anchor the front of the Reds rotation with Harang.Rincon can give the bulpen a little more depth.

ChatterRed
11-29-2007, 12:45 PM
Baileyor Cueto,EE,Maloney,Janish,Hopper,and Coffey or Magic Man for Santana and Rincon.

Keppinger can play 3B while Santana can anchor the front of the Reds rotation with Harang.Rincon can give the bulpen a little more depth.


........why not throw in Bailey, Votto, Hamilton and Bruce to completely bleed our farm system and future? :thumbdown

You're not going to get Santana without any of the four players I mentioned being part of the trade. And if you get him, it's for one season because the Reds ain't paying him $126 million.

Caveman Techie
11-29-2007, 01:59 PM
........why not throw in Bailey, Votto, Hamilton and Bruce to completely bleed our farm system and future? :thumbdown

You're not going to get Santana without any of the four players I mentioned being part of the trade. And if you get him, it's for one season because the Reds ain't paying him $126 million.

While I agree with the sentiment of not giving up top prospects for a one-year rental if the Reds could negotiate an extension with Santana I'd be willing ot give up any two "top prospects" in our system for him.

As for the Reds not paying for Santana. I don't know how true that statement is now, two weeks ago we all would have said the Reds wouldn't pay $46 million for a closer.

ChatterRed
11-29-2007, 02:07 PM
$20 plus million for a starter?

We have to pay Harang here soon.

Z-Fly
11-29-2007, 02:09 PM
Yeah, whatever happened to that Aaron Harang fellow?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Im pretty sure he didn't pitch in oakland for any extended period of time. I think he came up for a cup of coffee or two.


Kirk S. was traded for not signed as a free agent.

hippie07
11-29-2007, 06:18 PM
Mlbtraderumors.com again ..... rumor that won't die .. the "mystery team" in on Cordero ended up being the Reds.. hopefully we're just questioning ... and not seriously planning on giving up all that talent.


Is there an unmentioned Mystery Team in on Johan Santana? Stark's sources suggest the Mariners, but those guys must not read Jon Heyman's column. I'll go with the Reds as my guess on the Mystery Team, if there is one.

hippie07
11-29-2007, 06:41 PM
Looking at all the known players and their offers for Santana... its seems as if the Twins are looking for 1 top outfield prospect and 1 top pitching prospect (amongst lesser 'spects).

If the Reds are in the game: they're likely offering Hamilton and Bailey ...
Whether or not you think they should do it .. what do you think of the offer - compare the other teams offers here:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/27/santana.tradetalks/index.html

I think Hamilton is arguably better than any the position players mentioned (at least I'd rather have him) - but I don't know how Bailey compares to the pitchers... he's not as far along as the others ... what are your thoughts?

NorrisHopper30
11-29-2007, 07:34 PM
UPDATE


ESPN's Jayson Stark always cranks out a bunch of new rumors when he writes a column. This week is no exception.

* Jose Reyes: going nowhere.
* Probably since they hope to include him in a Johan Santana deal, the Red Sox won't trade Coco Crisp until that situation is resolved. The Rangers liked Crisp, but are considering interesting alternatives: Rocco Baldelli, Jim Edmonds, and Juan Pierre. If only Ned Colletti could get someone to take his Pierre contract. Then he could sign another one almost equally as bad. Then he could trade Aaron Rowand a year from now and repeat the process.
* The Braves also liked Crisp, so they'll move on for now. Stark speculates a stopgap like Dave Roberts could work.
* More speculation: Andruw Jones as a darkhorse signing for the Royals. I guess that would push David DeJesus out of center field.
* Is there an unmentioned Mystery Team in on Johan Santana? Stark's sources suggest the Mariners, but those guys must not read Jon Heyman's column. I'll go with the Reds as my guess on the Mystery Team, if there is one.
* Speaking of guesses, Stark surmises that the Padres and Mets could be interested in Jose Guillen, aside from the Royals.
* More rumblings that Vicente Padilla could be traded this winter. Funny quote about how Padilla doesn't have baggage - he has luggage. In fact his luggage cannot be carried, rather it requires a mid-sized cart.

- mlbtraderumors

The last time they mentioned a "mystery team" on this site it was in reference to a team that offered Cordero a 4 year contract. Wayne sure does like to keep things quiet. I'd think we'd try harder to get Haren, Blanton, or Bedard especially because of Johan's contract, but this is still exciting.

*BaseClogger*
11-29-2007, 07:56 PM
Upon further ponderation, I would do a Hamilton + Bailey + Maloney for Santana, even if it is a one year rental. I think that would make us a serious WS contender...

hippie07
11-30-2007, 12:43 AM
Some others are saying that it may be EdE, Hamilton, Bailey... w/o EdE we have no RH bat to speak of... ouch!

shredda2000
11-30-2007, 01:01 AM
Some others are saying that it may be EdE, Hamilton, Bailey... w/o EdE we have no RH bat to speak of... ouch!

Brandon Phillips says hello! :wave:

757690
11-30-2007, 01:08 AM
It only makes sense to acquire Santana and then sign him long term. Actually, his salary will be a big bullet for Cast to take this year, but starting next year, the Reds have a lot payroll flexablity.
Personally, I think the Red Sox or Yankees will get him. But if the Reds were to get him, this would be like when the Red Sox got Pedro in the 90's. It turned them into a championship team almost overnight. He would be worth the price in both prospects and money.

mroby85
11-30-2007, 02:04 AM
I agree with 757690 without a doubt! This team would be a force to be reckoned with. Can you imagine a shortened playoff series going against Harang, Santana, and Arroyo? Lights Out!

757690
11-30-2007, 02:49 AM
I do want to add that I agree with BaseClogger, in that if Santana lead the Reds to the World Series, it would be worth giving up any prospects, even if he left after one year.

mroby85
11-30-2007, 03:05 AM
if they trade for santana they need to lock him up, otherwise it would be a waste, imo.

Blue
11-30-2007, 04:47 AM
It only makes sense to acquire Santana and then sign him long term. Actually, his salary will be a big bullet for Cast to take this year, but starting next year, the Reds have a lot payroll flexablity.

The only problem with this is that when you trade away your major league ready prospects you shoot your payroll flexibility in the foot.

hippie07
11-30-2007, 12:30 PM
If we do land Santana (big "if", huh?) Are there benefits that we'll have in negotiating w/ him for a long term contract that other teams won't have ... like, will we get to speak w/ him exclusively for a while? I'm just not clear on how that works...

I think if we have some sort of advantage over other teams then it might well be possible for us to sign Santana to a deal. WK has shown good contract negotiating skills (I think someone pointed out that he negotiated Santana's other contract w/ the Twins)... If so, I think we would be "trading away our top talent" for more than just a year of a superstar pitcher, we'd be getting a special "window" in which to sign him to be a part of our team for a much longer time frame.

BEETTLEBUG
11-30-2007, 01:17 PM
I think you get 72 hour window.

AmarilloRed
11-30-2007, 01:43 PM
Mariners among Santana pursuers

By Geoff Baker

Seattle Times staff reporter


Minnesota Twins ace Johan Santana is one of several players the Mariners have inquired about heading into next week's baseball winter meetings.

Multiple sources in Minnesota and elsewhere in baseball indicated Thursday that the Mariners have already spoken with the Twins about their top pitcher. No formal offer is known to have been made, and the Mariners are one of several teams to have expressed interest in the two-time Cy Young Award winner.

It looks like the Mariners are probably the Mystery Team. I would like the Reds to be involved in the Santana chase, but I don't think they are.

Z-Fly
11-30-2007, 02:00 PM
It looks like the Mariners are probably the Mystery Team. I would like the Reds to be involved in the Santana chase, but I don't think they are.

Are these your words or the writers?

AmarilloRed
11-30-2007, 02:22 PM
Mine. I simply added my thoughts onto the abbreviated article. I will do that quite often.

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 02:25 PM
Oakland is just waiting out the storm on the Santana deals. Once Santana is off the market Haren will be the next huge trade.

TeamSelig
11-30-2007, 02:31 PM
I would do Bailey + Encarnacion + any prospect outside of Hamilton/Bruce/Cueto but would need an extention for Santana. Actually, I might part with Cueto too.

Too bad we can't trade them Adam Dunn, Encarnacion, and a prospect for Santana. Pick up a stop gap and go win some playoff games.

ChatterRed
11-30-2007, 02:39 PM
Oakland is just waiting out the storm on the Santana deals. Once Santana is off the market Haren will be the next huge trade.


I agree.

I also agree that the Reds aren't the mystery team. They cannot afford Santana. I don't understand why people keep getting their hopes up.

I think the Reds are waiting for the big chips to fall - such as Santana to be traded for by the Yanks probably. The Yanks give up their best prospects and that takes them out of the bidding war for other pitching trades. At that point, the Reds start looking pretty good in what we have to trade with. I also think the Reds are targetting established starters that still come cheap a few more years.

I just don't see the Reds trading for Santana if they can't sign him long term.........and $20 plus million a year just seems way out of the ballpark for the Reds. Factor in signing Dunn long term and the payroll will be in the $90 million - $100 million range. Do you see Castellini doing that?

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 02:45 PM
I can see him hitting 90-100 million but not on a yearly basis.

roby
11-30-2007, 02:48 PM
I agree.

I also agree that the Reds aren't the mystery team. They cannot afford Santana. I don't understand why people keep getting their hopes up.

I think the Reds are waiting for the big chips to fall - such as Santana to be traded for by the Yanks probably. The Yanks give up their best prospects and that takes them out of the bidding war for other pitching trades. At that point, the Reds start looking pretty good in what we have to trade with. I also think the Reds are targetting established starters that still come cheap a few more years.

I just don't see the Reds trading for Santana if they can't sign him long term.........and $20 plus million a year just seems way out of the ballpark for the Reds. Factor in signing Dunn long term and the payroll will be in the $90 million - $100 million range. Do you see Castellini doing that?

I'm beginning to think Cast might go that high. At first I didn't think so...but a lot of revenue is coming in, and he really wants to win. Why else would you sign Baker as Mgr. and Cordero as closer at the salaries he gave them?

schmidty622
11-30-2007, 02:55 PM
If I were running the Reds I would be trying to get a deal done for a higher-tier pitcher that isn’t as good as Santana but still on the market right now. They need to exploit this time period in which all of the larger market teams seem to be focusing their efforts on this Santana deal. I would be calling Oakland about one of their three guys, Baltimore about Bedard, Toronto about Burnett, and Florida about Willis. They should be able to get one of those guys for a reasonable price before the market blows up after Santana falls.

My SP wish list would be in this order:
Haren
Burnett
Bedard
Harden
Blanton
Willis

Any of those guys would give the Reds a pretty damn good staff.

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 02:56 PM
I know for a fact that if the ownership was as strong as it is in NY or Boston, reds fans would show up a crap ton more. Its the whole demeanor of the past owners that has turned fans away.

Not saying spend like the Sox or the Yanks but be as aggressive an the fans will be just as aggressive in ticket sales.

hippie07
11-30-2007, 03:15 PM
The thing we haven't considered is how much input BCast might have -- if the Reds are inquiring about Santana... BCast has to be playing a huge roll in that. BCast could be as excited as we are about the prospect of having baseball's best pitcher donning a Reds uni. I'm sure that Bob lets Wayne make the decisions, but if WK knows that Cast really wants Santana, I'm sure he'll make every effort to land him...

ChatterRed
11-30-2007, 06:21 PM
If I were running the Reds I would be trying to get a deal done for a higher-tier pitcher that isnít as good as Santana but still on the market right now. They need to exploit this time period in which all of the larger market teams seem to be focusing their efforts on this Santana deal. I would be calling Oakland about one of their three guys, Baltimore about Bedard, Toronto about Burnett, and Florida about Willis. They should be able to get one of those guys for a reasonable price before the market blows up after Santana falls.

My SP wish list would be in this order:
Haran
Burnett
Bedard
Harden
Blanton
Willis

Any of those guys would give the Reds a pretty damn good staff.


100% agree and stated nearly the same thing in another thread. We don't necessarily need a #1 starter, but more like a #2 starter would be plenty.

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 06:24 PM
who is haran

NorrisHopper30
11-30-2007, 06:47 PM
who is haran

Dan Haren 27 year old Oakland A's starting pitcher

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7172

That's his player profile.

Redsnake
11-30-2007, 07:02 PM
I thinks it's Harang. :rolleyes:

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 07:41 PM
Dan Haren 27 year old Oakland A's starting pitcher

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7172

That's his player profile.

I know who dan haren, i just never heard of Haran

*BaseClogger*
11-30-2007, 08:09 PM
If I were running the Reds I would be trying to get a deal done for a higher-tier pitcher that isnít as good as Santana but still on the market right now. They need to exploit this time period in which all of the larger market teams seem to be focusing their efforts on this Santana deal. I would be calling Oakland about one of their three guys, Baltimore about Bedard, Toronto about Burnett, and Florida about Willis. They should be able to get one of those guys for a reasonable price before the market blows up after Santana falls.

My SP wish list would be in this order:
Haren
Burnett
Bedard
Harden
Blanton
Willis

Any of those guys would give the Reds a pretty damn good staff.


wtf... where is ian snell?:rolleyes:

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 08:11 PM
Wayne once again said tonight on 700 that they are looking to upgrade the staff and to get something you have to give up something.

Cant Touch This
11-30-2007, 08:11 PM
Bip is just trying to point out a spelling error in a passively aggressive style. I wonder if the real Bip Roberts is a passive aggressive...? All I know is he generated one of the top headlines in the Cincinnati Enquirer I've ever read: "BIP BOPS CARDINALS!"

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 08:12 PM
Trade for Haren with Hamilton as a starting point.

Bip Roberts
11-30-2007, 08:12 PM
Bip is just trying to point out a spelling error in a passively aggressive style. I wonder if the real Bip Roberts is a passive aggressive...? All I know is he generated one of the top headlines in the Cincinnati Enquirer I've ever read: "BIP BOPS CARDINALS!"

HOW DO YOU KNOW IM NOT THE REAL BIP ROBERTS?

redsfanmia
11-30-2007, 08:17 PM
HOW DO YOU KNOW IM NOT THE REAL BIP ROBERTS?

Settle down Leon.

ChatterRed
11-30-2007, 09:03 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/johan-santana-2.html


UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 6pm: The Yankees' front office has been debating whether to surrender Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana. Buster Olney reports that they're leaning toward doing it. Melky Cabrera and one other prospect would be sent over as well. The Yankees, as well as the Red Sox, are hedging their bets by talking to Billy Beane about Dan Haren at the same time.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 11:25am: David Andriesen says the Mariners are not serious players on Santana. However, Geoff Baker says the Ms have inquired but not made an offer for him. However Baker talked to a friend of Santana's who indicated the ace wouldn't be jazzed signing a contract extension with a West Coast team. U.S.S. Mariner recommends against a Santana acquisition.

FROM 11-30-07 at 8:45am:

I think it's time for a new Johan Santana thread. We'll start today with a Peter Gammons report today on Mike & Mike In The Morning. This comes from a trusted MLBTR reader.

Gammons favors the Yankees in the Santana derby, because he feels that Hank Steinbrenner could overrule Brian Cashman and include Phil Hughes in the deal. Some feel that the Red Sox are just trying to pump up the price and would then turn to the A's to get Dan Haren. Getting Haren instead of Santana may have the added benefit of not pissing off Josh Beckett about his salary.



So the Red Sox are driving up the price on Santana and are dealing with the A's for Haren. Interesting.

I was hoping the Reds were secretly dealing for Haren. :D

thatcoolguy_22
11-30-2007, 09:05 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/johan-santana-2.html



So the Red Sox are driving up the price on Santana and are dealing with the A's for Haren. Interesting.

I was hoping the Reds were secretly dealing for Haren. :D


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63862

no need for a new thread everytime a writer changes his mind on what might happen with santana especially when the thread I linked you to is 4 spaces below this one...

ChatterRed
11-30-2007, 09:13 PM
Okay fine. I disagree. But fine. This is new stuff.

Stephenk29
12-01-2007, 12:20 AM
I dont like Santanas work load honestly, his numbers are kinda sliding and hes been a freaking work horse. I could see him falling off quickly in a couple years.

very rarely does any team get the opportunity to get pick up the best pitcher in baseball, at least a pitcher of his caliber. If there is any chance the Reds think they can fork out the dollars then we have to go after him, almost at any cost.

Bip Roberts
12-01-2007, 12:24 AM
very rarely does any team get the opportunity to get pick up the best pitcher in baseball, at least a pitcher of his caliber. If there is any chance the Reds think they can fork out the dollars then we have to go after him, almost at any cost.

If we started working with a 100+ payroll then id be all for it, but as of right now i think we would be better off going for someone a step down like Haren, or settle for Blanton because he eats almost as many innings as he does burgers.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-01-2007, 12:32 AM
I agree with 757690 without a doubt! This team would be a force to be reckoned with. Can you imagine a shortened playoff series going against Harang, Santana, and Arroyo? Lights Out! I would have to guess that it would be Santana, Harang, Arroyo.

Blue
12-01-2007, 12:47 AM
I'm with Bip. He won't be worth what is paid in salary and prospects over the course of his next contract. We need to look elsewhere or just stick with our young players.

TN Red Fan
12-01-2007, 01:11 AM
I'd offer Hatteberg, Keppinger, Hopper, and Homer Bailey.

If the Twins thought Keppinger and Hopper were legitimate .300 hitters, like they were last year, it'd be a better deal for them than what the Red Sox are offering (from what I heard, Ellsbury is off the table). It also fills the Twins needs perfectly (3B, CF, DH, SP).

Think about it...

Hopper > Crisp
Bailey > Lester
Keppinger > Lowrie
Hatteberg > ???

Like I said, that's assuming the Twins felt Kepp and Hopper would continue to play like they did last season.

Of course, I doubt the Twins would see them as that good, so it doesn't really matter, but I do think the Twins are going to find out there isn't quite as much demand for Santana as they'd anticipated.

It would be something, though, getting Santana without giving up a single player slotted as a starter.

AmarilloRed
12-01-2007, 01:52 AM
UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 10pm: It's been decided: the Yanks will put Hughes in their offer. John Harper and Bill Madden feel that it was Brian Cashman who needed convincing. Cabrera remains in the package, which will be rounded out by an additional pitching prospect. This collection of youngsters apparently puts the Yankees in the lead for Santana.

It will be hard to top this offer.

ED44
12-01-2007, 02:03 AM
I am still trying to figure out why everyone is so high on Melky Cabrera...I just don't get it. Although I prefer Bedard/Haren (because of the $$$ difference), I don't see why a package of Bailey/Hamilton + would not top the Yanks offer. Now paying for Santana is a different story, but based purely on prospects I can't imagine how that's enough for the Yanks to get the best pitcher in baseball.

Stephenk29
12-01-2007, 02:13 AM
If we started working with a 100+ payroll then id be all for it, but as of right now i think we would be better off going for someone a step down like Haren, or settle for Blanton because he eats almost as many innings as he does burgers.

I agree but there also no guarantees that the A's/O's whoever don't already have a deal in the works. Griffey's payroll will be off the books soon and depending on how things works out, there is always that possibility that they may try to afford him. Unlikely yes, we're gonna have to start paying the younger guys sooner than later.

AmarilloRed
12-01-2007, 02:20 AM
I suspect the Reds will pass on the likes of Bedard, Kazmir, and Santana as they will cost too much money and drain the farm system too much. I could see them putting together a trade for someone like Haren after the main trade prizes are gone.

ChatterRed
12-01-2007, 02:57 AM
I suspect the Reds will pass on the likes of Bedard, Kazmir, and Santana as they will cost too much money and drain the farm system too much. I could see them putting together a trade for someone like Haren after the main trade prizes are gone.

Yep. I continue to agree.

Let the big trades happen and then make, probably, the better trade that makes less headlines, but is more likely the most impact.

Bip Roberts
12-01-2007, 10:28 AM
I suspect the Reds will pass on the likes of Bedard, Kazmir, and Santana as they will cost too much money and drain the farm system too much. I could see them putting together a trade for someone like Haren after the main trade prizes are gone.

I think they could get involved in trade talks for guys like Haren and Bedard. I think wayne knows they need a number 2 and he is actually saying that they are looking for a big improvement in the rotation. For as good as Haren is he isnt better than Harang right now. :dunno:

jmac
12-01-2007, 03:28 PM
he eats almost as many innings
This is a term I am not a big fan of when it comes to AL pitchers.
Jimmy Haynes was always referred to like this when coming out of AL. Fact is, with the DH, most every pitcher "should" be termed this. Haynes would go 7 ip with 12 hits, 7 er as typical line. Yes, he "ate" 7 innings but if in the NL, he would have been out game and PH for.
A innings eater in the NL is a guy who throws alot of innings which means in most cases he has kept his team in the game.

redsfanmia
12-01-2007, 03:57 PM
I'd offer Hatteberg, Keppinger, Hopper, and Homer Bailey.

If the Twins thought Keppinger and Hopper were legitimate .300 hitters, like they were last year, it'd be a better deal for them than what the Red Sox are offering (from what I heard, Ellsbury is off the table). It also fills the Twins needs perfectly (3B, CF, DH, SP).

Think about it...

Hopper > Crisp
Bailey > Lester
Keppinger > Lowrie
Hatteberg > ???

Like I said, that's assuming the Twins felt Kepp and Hopper would continue to play like they did last season.

Of course, I doubt the Twins would see them as that good, so it doesn't really matter, but I do think the Twins are going to find out there isn't quite as much demand for Santana as they'd anticipated.

It would be something, though, getting Santana without giving up a single player slotted as a starter.

You cant bundle a bunch of trash and one legit prospect and expect to get Santana its just not going to happen. I for one dont want the Reds to get Santana and then sign him to a payroll crippling contract.

TN Red Fan
12-01-2007, 05:32 PM
You cant bundle a bunch of trash and one legit prospect and expect to get Santana its just not going to happen. I for one dont want the Reds to get Santana and then sign him to a payroll crippling contract.

Isn't that what the Yankees are doing?

Hughes plus a bunch of trash?

hippie07
12-01-2007, 06:41 PM
You cant bundle a bunch of trash and one legit prospect and expect to get Santana its just not going to happen. I for one dont want the Reds to get Santana and then sign him to a payroll crippling contract.

we don't know what the payroll will be yet.. 25mil a yr. may not cripple it .... I think thats premature

hippie07
12-01-2007, 07:04 PM
mlbtraderumors.com says that the latest trade offer from the Yankees is Cabrera, Ian Kennedy, and Phil Hughes.... That would be an awesome deal, but they'd still need a 3rd baseman...

Maybe they'll trade w/ us... EdE and Maloney for Ian Kennedy ...

AmarilloRed
12-01-2007, 07:29 PM
Johan Santana Rumors

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 5pm: Ken Rosenthal says the Twins are asking for shortstop Alberto Gonzalez or starter Alan Horne as the third player from the Yankees. Doesn't sound like Hughes + Kennedy is any kind of possibility. The Yankees cracked and put Hughes in...unless the Red Sox crack and put Ellsbury in it seems like Santana will end up in the Bronx.

Will M
12-01-2007, 07:39 PM
IF the Reds could get Santana we would have the best pitcher in baseball as our #1. Harang as #2 is better than any other #2 in baseball. I also don't think there are too many #3s better than Arroyo. This type of rotation could dominate a postseason if we have enough offense left to make it to the postseason.

P.S. - how bout this: trade Dunn for prospects ( Angels need a bat ). Take those prospects plus Cueto, Malony & Stubbs for Johan.

redsfanmia
12-01-2007, 07:45 PM
we don't know what the payroll will be yet.. 25mil a yr. may not cripple it .... I think thats premature

If you think the Reds payroll will be anything more than 80 million your living in a fantasy world.

AmarilloRed
12-01-2007, 07:47 PM
Someone more skilled in financial matters than I can speak to this , but I believe the Cordero signing pushed it over 80 million.

hippie07
12-01-2007, 08:50 PM
If you think the Reds payroll will be anything more than 80 million your living in a fantasy world.

It already is more than 80mil and we're shopping for pitching, so .... I'm living in reality thank you very much!

schmidty622
12-01-2007, 09:00 PM
But your not living in a 100 million dollar reality, which is what Johan would push the Reds salary to.

The Reds should do the smart thing, sign a consistent 2 or 3 without selling off their future and try and contend this year. They shouldn’t blow their load on one player which is what a Johan trade and signing would do.

hippie07
12-01-2007, 09:14 PM
Listen, Santana is owed - I think its 13.5 mil this season, which would push up to 94.5mil for the season (if no payroll was cleared). The Reds free up 20mil next season even if no moves are made (considering we sign Dunn for 15mil, if we don't then 35mil). The Reds picked up 45mil this year (20 in revenue sharing and 25 in internet rights). So, the Reds could make it work if they wanted to.

Its very possible that if the Reds are in trade talks for Santana, its due to BCast asking for him - if BCast wants him, I just don't know why everyone's so worried about whether or not we can pay for him...

Bip Roberts
12-01-2007, 09:43 PM
Listen, Santana is owed - I think its 13.5 mil this season, which would push up to 94.5mil for the season (if no payroll was cleared). The Reds free up 20mil next season even if no moves are made (considering we sign Dunn for 15mil, if we don't then 35mil). The Reds picked up 45mil this year (20 in revenue sharing and 25 in internet rights). So, the Reds could make it work if they wanted to.

Its very possible that if the Reds are in trade talks for Santana, its due to BCast asking for him - if BCast wants him, I just don't know why everyone's so worried about whether or not we can pay for him...

trading all of our young guys and not resigning would be epic failure.

TN Red Fan
12-01-2007, 10:11 PM
If you think the Reds payroll will be anything more than 80 million your living in a fantasy world.

It's already been reported that they have/had intended to push it up over $85 million.

hippie07
12-01-2007, 11:26 PM
trading all of our young guys and not resigning would be epic failure.

Agreed, but I think we'll have something like a 72-hour window to negotiate w/ him... I think the Reds would give him what he asks (they'd better if they're willing to give up Hamilton, EdE and Bailey for him). 5 yrs. 25mil per would get it done. **Plus: I have to give WK credit for being a good contract negotiator - he negotiated Santana's current contract w/ the Twins.

With our current players slated for 2009 our payroll is 43mil (minus Griffey and adding 15 mil for Dunn, 12 for Cordero, 25 for Santana .... leaves us w/ a payroll of 95mil for 2009...which is completely doable (especially when you consider that we'd rake in the revenue w/ Santana on the roster and a playoff run in 2008).

If the Reds wanted to do it, they could... that's all I'm saying -- ownership may have to resign themselves to making less money for a couple of years, but that's an investment that they may be willing to make

AmarilloRed
12-02-2007, 12:46 AM
UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy - Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman. The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity. Peter Abraham says the Yanks will also slap a deadline on their offer and then turn their attention to Dan Haren.

Concurrently, the Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back. How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved? Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb). Peter Abraham is saying the Sox aren't serious though.


It is pretty interesting that the Yankees are using Dan Haren as leverage. The Twins should be careful. If they get too greedy, they will be unable to trade Santana and might have to go through 2008 and lose him in 2009 and get nothing.

schmidty622
12-02-2007, 09:13 AM
Forget Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon the Sox have Hideki Okajima. Plus isnt Gagne a free agent?

And the Reds need to start negotiations with the As before the Yanks or Sox start snooping around for Dan Haran.

AmarilloRed
12-02-2007, 07:16 PM
Report: Ellsbury offered for Santana
Seeking to land left-hander, Red Sox up ante to Twins
By Ian Browne / MLB.com

BOSTON -- The battle for Twins ace left-hander Johan Santana is gaining more intrigue by the day. The latest wrinkle is that the Red Sox might now be willing to include top center-field prospect Jacoby Ellsbury in their offer to Minnesota as a response to the Yankees recently putting stud pitching prospect Phil Hughes in their package.

ESPN.com -- citing sources -- reported Sunday that Boston had backed off its refusal to include Ellsbury. But if Ellsbury is to be in the deal, the Red Sox will pull back left-handed starter Jon Lester.

With the Winter Meetings set to begin in Nashville, Tenn., on Monday, the Santana sweepstakes figure to take center stage.

The Twins will have to weigh which offer entices them more: Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and an additional prospect from the Yankees or Boston's offer, which could include Ellsbury, Minor League shortstop Jed Lowrie and a pitching prospect such as Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden.

There are other teams who are also in the mix, including the Angels, Dodgers and Mets, although at this point, the Red Sox and the Yankees -- rivals always -- seem to be the most heavily involved.

The Yankees and Red Sox -- who traditionally have the two highest payrolls in the Major Leagues -- would also seem to be in the best position to sign Santana to a contract extension if a trade can be worked out.

Santana, who will be 29 next season, has a no-trade clause and is all but certain to seek a contract extension before agreeing to be moved.

Several reports have stated that Santana could seek as much as $150 million over six years.

Ellsbury rose to prominence for the Red Sox down the stretch in 2007, filling in for the injured Manny Ramirez and hitting .361 in September. Beginning with Game 6 of the American League Championship Series, Ellsbury supplanted Coco Crisp in center field and the Red Sox didn't lose another game. Ellsbury stepped up in the World Series, going 7-for-16.

The Red Sox were trying to trade Crisp instead of Ellsbury, but the Twins repeatedly rebuffed those attempts.

At the end of the day, the Twins could always mull over all the offers and decide they are better off keeping Santana.

Ian Browne is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.


If the Red Sox are offering Ellsbury, that makes it possible Santana could end up in Boston instead of NY. I think those are the only 2 teams that realistically have a chance of landing him.

Bip Roberts
12-02-2007, 07:34 PM
Yea im sorry but Hughes is worth more than Ellsbury

757690
12-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Yea im sorry but Hughes is worth more than Ellsbury

Yeah, what is the deal with Elisbury? He had a great call up at the end of the season, but at best, he is a young Johnny Damon or Kenny Lofton, and probably would be more like a future Dave Roberts. He's not a future franchise player. I'd easily give him up as part of a deal to acquire the best pitcher in baseball.

This reminds me of when Bowden would not give up Pookie Reese up for Jr. in 99. The Reds had to give up Brett Tomko instead. Not like he was much better, but the Reds needed pitchers back then, especially starters.

*BaseClogger*
12-02-2007, 10:17 PM
Yeah, what is the deal with Elisbury? He had a great call up at the end of the season, but at best, he is a young Johnny Damon or Kenny Lofton, and probably would be more like a future Dave Roberts. He's not a future franchise player. I'd easily give him up as part of a deal to acquire the best pitcher in baseball.

This reminds me of when Bowden would not give up Pookie Reese up for Jr. in 99. The Reds had to give up Brett Tomko instead. Not like he was much better, but the Reds needed pitchers back then, especially starters.

At the time Tomko had great potential

AmarilloRed
12-02-2007, 10:54 PM
UPDATE, 12-2-07 at 8:30pm: Hank weighs in, reiterating the deadline. He says the third player actually isn't the sticking point. Thanks Hank!

UPDATE, 12-2-07 at 7:30pm: The Yanks' deadline on their offer, which no one is taking seriously, is for end of day Monday. Brian Cashman has given Bill Smith a list of possibilities for the third player in the deal.

UPDATE, 12-2-07 at 6:15pm: Ken Rosenthal says Santana told the Twins he won't waive his no-trade clause during the season. It's now or never. The packages the Yankees and Red Sox are offering are definitely better than two draft picks, especially since there's no guarantee one of them will be a first-round pick. I'd be surprised if he's not moved this week.

AmarilloRed
12-03-2007, 02:27 AM
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 12:02am: Not only will Johan veto any midseason deal, he'll veto any deal to a team other than the Yankees or Red Sox.

This should eliminate any possibility of the Reds trading for Johan Santana.

Bip Roberts
12-03-2007, 02:28 AM
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 12:02am: Not only will Johan veto any midseason deal, he'll veto any deal to a team other than the Yankees or Red Sox.

This should eliminate any possibility of the Reds trading for Johan Santana.

Well that would just make me pull a player out of the deal if i was boston and NY

AmarilloRed
12-03-2007, 01:23 PM
La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that the Twins are not amused with Hank Steinbrenner's public comments regarding their negotiations. It's not known if the Twins will pursue tampering charges.

Interestingly, Neal debunks the notion that Santana has demanded he be traded to only the Yankees or Red Sox. Neal says Santana has placed no limitations on where he ends up, as of yet.

It seem the previous rumor about going only to the Red Sox or Yankees was false. The Reds could still go after him if they wanted.

AmarilloRed
12-04-2007, 12:34 AM
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 10:16pm: Matthew Cerrone says the Twins have moved on from the Yankees and Red Sox, and are calling other teams to discuss Santana. Tyler Kepner says the Yanks have interpreted the Twins' nonresponse to their offer as a rejection.


It seems now would be the time to approach the Twins, with Boston and NY seemingly no longer an option.

AmarilloRed
12-04-2007, 09:54 AM
The Red Sox and Twins called it a night around 2am CST, but Gordon Edes thinks the Red Sox are close and a deal could be announced this morning. The Twins looked at Jon Lester's medical records; the Red Sox reviewed Santana's. The supposed deal right now is Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, and Lester. Not bad but it would represent a concession by the Twins. If an agreement is reached, the Red Sox still need to pull off a contract extension.

It is possible a deal could be announced this morning. It also mentioned the Yankees are moving on to Haren.

ChatterRed
12-05-2007, 01:00 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Yanks-backed-out-of-Santana-deal-to-save-money-?urn=mlb,56337

Yanks sign Pettite and have backed out of the Santana sweepstakes. I'm sure the Red Sox offer will drop now. Sounds like it already has based on Amarillo's post above saying the Twinkies are calling around to other teams now.

I think this whole thing backfires on the Twins........Yanks are out and now BoSox can drop their offer. Nobody else is probably in the mix for Santana because they can't afford his contract demands of $125 million.

Twins retain Santana and he walks after next season .........they get nothing but a compensatory draft pick. Hilarious.

Hondo
12-07-2007, 05:08 AM
Ok here is the Deal of all Deals... Simple

Santana for Freel. Ok, and throw in Gary Majeski...But only if Minnesota hesitates...

Thanks