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hippie07
11-29-2007, 11:19 AM
If the Reds want to make a world series push this year (not saying thats 'the plan' but if it were) - What would it take for us to get there??

1. Pitching, Pitching, and more Pitching
2. RH slugger

I know that pitching is the most important thing right now, but I got to the point last where I had to make myself watch a game if I knew the opposing pitcher was left-handed.. its just not fun to watch.

I've been thinking about this lately -- what if the Reds worked a blockbuster deal w/ the Orioles.. Orioles are trying to trade two things that the Reds greatly desire a LH ace pitcher and a RH power bat. The Orioles are in a salary dump type situation in trying to get rid of Tejada but are willing to pay some of his salary. If they are willing to pay 5mil in 2008, the Reds would be stuck w/ 8mil in 08 and 13 in 09. Which isn't too awfully bad for a right-handed slugger and this guy, even though his defense has declined, still crushes Left-handed pitching. He might not be an adequate shortstop, but should make a decent 3rd baseman.

Also, taking Tejada at a bit of the dump might make the Bedard trade more doable.

We could send the Orioles: EdE, Hamilton, Cueto, Janish, Wood, Stubbs, Bray, Majewski/Coffee ...

The Reds would then have a 2-headed pitching ace in RH Harang and LH Bedard to go along w/ a very balanced lineup:

Freel/Hopper/Dickerson
Phillips
Griffey/Bruce
Tejada
Dunn
Votto
AGon
Ross

The pitching rotation of: Harang, Bedard, Arroyo, Belisle, Bailey would be quite formidable especially if Bailey improves as expected.

We could try to trade Griffey, Freel, and Hatteburg for pitching if we can in order to free up $$$ but if we can't we soak it up ... seriously guys, this isn't Lindner's ballclub, I think BCast is serious and we could see the Reds go into the "red" (pardon the pun) this year in order to put a winner on the field.

I'd like to see Freel, Hatteberg, & Maloney to Twins for Slowey and Griffey to the Braves for Jo Jo Reyes or to some other team for an ace reliever and catching prospect.

:D

mound_patrol
11-29-2007, 11:27 AM
The Reds can win now without selling the farm. They helped the bullpen out with Cordero and now we just need to sure up the Starting spots. To do that they should sign the one year guys in this years FA pool (Clement, Wolf, and/or Leiber). Sign them for one or two years and hope they can sure things up while Cueto and Maloney continue to get better. If we could some how move Jr I'd be in favor of adding a bat like Shannon Stewert to our lineup.

Our rotation will be better this year with or without them, but adding one of those three could help considerably and not be a huge burden in salary for years to come.

ChatterRed
11-29-2007, 11:42 AM
Not sure those are the guys the Orioles would want. They lose a SS and we trade them a third baseman........and use their SS to replace our third baseman.......works for us, and not for them. EE, Hamilton and Bray are the only value in that trade, the rest looks like dumping prospects we've lost confidence in, although you could argue other teams gave up on Brandon Phillips and Cantu, and a change of scenery did them well.

I'm willing to trade one of our LH power hitting outfielders (Griffey, Dunn or Hamilton).....and I think because he comes cheap, Hamilton is the most valuable in trade. I agree with you that we need another RH power bat to go with Phillips. I just don't see the Reds trading away cheap prospects for expensive players that add to payroll. I think you'd even have to throw in Votto to get Bedard in your trade proposal, and that would be totally selling the farm.

hippie07
11-29-2007, 12:07 PM
Not sure those are the guys the Orioles would want. They lose a SS and we trade them a third baseman........and use their SS to replace our third baseman.......works for us, and not for them. EE, Hamilton and Bray are the only value in that trade, the rest looks like dumping prospects we've lost confidence in, although you could argue other teams gave up on Brandon Phillips and Cantu, and a change of scenery did them well.

I'm willing to trade one of our LH power hitting outfielders (Griffey, Dunn or Hamilton).....and I think because he comes cheap, Hamilton is the most valuable in trade. I agree with you that we need another RH power bat to go with Phillips. I just don't see the Reds trading away cheap prospects for expensive players that add to payroll. I think you'd even have to throw in Votto to get Bedard in your trade proposal, and that would be totally selling the farm.

Cueto is a dumped prospect? I thought he was one of the "big four"

AmarilloRed
11-29-2007, 12:09 PM
I have mentioned this before, but I don't trade Hamilton until Dunn is signed to a LTC. That would leave us with Dunn in his option year, Griffey almost gone, Hamilton traded, and only Bruce to take 1 outfield spot. If Dunn is signed to a LTC however, we look forward to an outfield of Dunn, Bruce, and a caretaker like Hopper. I think it is probably best that we offer 1-2 year deals to the likes of Clement, Wolf, or Lieber. Cueto and Maloney will soon follow. All we need to do is get to the playoffs, and we can probably make the World Series. We don't have the horses to win it until both Bailey and Cueto are legitimate front-end starters.

ChatterRed
11-29-2007, 01:10 PM
Cueto is a dumped prospect? I thought he was one of the "big four"

I agree. I just overlooked him in your list.

mroby85
11-29-2007, 01:38 PM
i think they're a contender right now, obviously if you win your division you have a shot, look at st. louis a couple years ago. However, if they want to be legit WS Contenders, i'd say you need a really good right handed bat, and another great starting pitcher.

Johan, and Miguel Cabrera anyone? lol.

NorrisHopper30
11-29-2007, 01:38 PM
Am I the only one that think Tejada is done?

bounty37h
11-29-2007, 02:58 PM
If the Reds want to make a world series push this year (not saying thats 'the plan' but if it were) - What would it take for us to get there??

1. Pitching, Pitching, and more Pitching
2. RH slugger

I know that pitching is the most important thing right now, but I got to the point last where I had to make myself watch a game if I knew the opposing pitcher was left-handed.. its just not fun to watch.

I've been thinking about this lately -- what if the Reds worked a blockbuster deal w/ the Orioles.. Orioles are trying to trade two things that the Reds greatly desire a LH ace pitcher and a RH power bat. The Orioles are in a salary dump type situation in trying to get rid of Tejada but are willing to pay some of his salary. If they are willing to pay 5mil in 2008, the Reds would be stuck w/ 8mil in 08 and 13 in 09. Which isn't too awfully bad for a right-handed slugger and this guy, even though his defense has declined, still crushes Left-handed pitching. He might not be an adequate shortstop, but should make a decent 3rd baseman.

Also, taking Tejada at a bit of the dump might make the Bedard trade more doable.

We could send the Orioles: EdE, Hamilton, Cueto, Janish, Wood, Stubbs, Bray, Majewski/Coffee ...

The Reds would then have a 2-headed pitching ace in RH Harang and LH Bedard to go along w/ a very balanced lineup:

Freel/Hopper/Dickerson
Phillips
Griffey/Bruce
Tejada
Dunn
Votto
AGon
Ross

The pitching rotation of: Harang, Bedard, Arroyo, Belisle, Bailey would be quite formidable especially if Bailey improves as expected.

We could try to trade Griffey, Freel, and Hatteburg for pitching if we can in order to free up $$$ but if we can't we soak it up ... seriously guys, this isn't Lindner's ballclub, I think BCast is serious and we could see the Reds go into the "red" (pardon the pun) this year in order to put a winner on the field.

I'd like to see Freel, Hatteberg, & Maloney to Twins for Slowey and Griffey to the Braves for Jo Jo Reyes or to some other team for an ace reliever and catching prospect.

:D

Hippie, checked us out lately?, we already signed an ace reliever :)

hippie07
11-29-2007, 04:33 PM
Hippie, checked us out lately?, we already signed an ace reliever :)

Of course and that acquisition is what makes these other discussions possible.

Does Cordero make us have a better bullpen? Yeah. Does that give us a world series contending bullpen? ... I'd rather have another reliable gun in the bullpen then not.

hippie07
11-29-2007, 04:43 PM
mlbtraderumors.com discusses possible trade scenarios for Tejada today:


I recently named the Baltimore Sun's Jeff Zrebiec as Rumor Royalty for the Orioles. He was kind enough to answer a few questions for the site.

MLBTR: Give us an example of a reasonable trade bounty for a team acquiring Miguel Tejada. Do you think the Orioles are targeting a certain number of players or certain positions? If the acquiring team intended to move him to third base, would this become a problem?

Zrebiec: All indications are that the Orioles are still looking for two high-level prospects for Tejada. I'm not sure they'll get that now with Tejada's defensive concerns and declining power numbers, but that could change when Miguel Cabrera is no longer on the market. The Orioles are in desperate need for young position player talent, but president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail has acknowledged that he is in no position to discriminate. He wants to bring in as much young talent as possible this offseason, regardless of position. "We'll sort it out later," he has said.

Tejada has given conflicting answers in the past about whether he'll move to 3B. He has made it clear that he'd prefer to stay at shortstop. However, he has also said that he would make the move for a playoff-caliber team. I don't foresee it being a problem at all. Everybody that knows Miguel insists that all he wants to do is win, and he'll do what he has to do to make that happen.

757690
11-29-2007, 05:16 PM
Am I the only one that think Tejada is done?
Nope, I second that.

I would never trade for Tejada. He makes too much money and probably will be worse than EE next year and in years to come.

I know working out these trades are fun, (I do it all day long), but The Reds are very close to being a championship team. They just need some arms for the back end of the rotation.

They don't need to give up prime prospects for #1 or 2 starters. And with the emergence of Phillips and EE in the second half last year, they are not desperate for a right handed hitter.

The big problem last year from the right side, was that Narron was in love with Conine. I see Cantu as a huge improvement there. This is why I think they should trade Votto for the best starting pitcher they can get, then platoon Cantu and Hatteberg. That solves the two problems Hippie posts at the top of this thread, without giving up much.

*BaseClogger*
11-29-2007, 07:04 PM
Who would you guys rather give up: Hamilton or Votto?

BEETTLEBUG
11-29-2007, 07:18 PM
VOTTO

NorrisHopper30
11-29-2007, 07:21 PM
Nope, I second that.

I would never trade for Tejada. He makes too much money and probably will be worse than EE next year and in years to come.

I know working out these trades are fun, (I do it all day long), but The Reds are very close to being a championship team. They just need some arms for the back end of the rotation.

They don't need to give up prime prospects for #1 or 2 starters. And with the emergence of Phillips and EE in the second half last year, they are not desperate for a right handed hitter.

The big problem last year from the right side, was that Narron was in love with Conine. I see Cantu as a huge improvement there. This is why I think they should trade Votto for the best starting pitcher they can get, then platoon Cantu and Hatteberg. That solves the two problems Hippie posts at the top of this thread, without giving up much.
I agree completely, it seems like even though he hit near .300 and drove in 80 runs that his defense has decreased and his age has been catching up to him.


Who would you guys rather give up: Hamilton or Votto?
Votto

GoReds33
11-29-2007, 07:41 PM
I believe we can win right now. The only thing we need is another starter, or somebody like Bailey to step up, and a righty power threat. Bedard would certainly help though.

Vada Pinson Fan
11-29-2007, 09:09 PM
Who would you guys rather give up: Hamilton or Votto?

The Reds have stars and superstars in their outfield and upcoming OFers in Bruce, Stubbs and Dickerson. We have only one young, potential star 1st baseman and that's Joey Votto.

To answer your question BaseClogger: I trade Hamilton IF I have to (for a #1 type pitcher). Never, Ever trade Votto. How long has it been since we had a 1st baseman that could hit 30+hrs, hit .300+ and drive in 90-100rbi's. Yes, Hamilton can do that too, but we have a surplus in the outfield. Let's not talk about Dunn moving to first. No way.

*BaseClogger*
11-29-2007, 09:22 PM
The Reds have stars and superstars in their outfield and upcoming OFers in Bruce, Stubbs and Dickerson. We have only one young, potential star 1st baseman and that's Joey Votto.

To answer your question BaseClogger: I trade Hamilton IF I have to (for a #1 type pitcher). Never, Ever trade Votto. How long has it been since we had a 1st baseman that could hit 30+hrs, hit .300+ and drive in 90-100rbi's. Yes, Hamilton can do that too, but we have a surplus in the outfield. Let's not talk about Dunn moving to first. No way.

Defense?

757690
11-29-2007, 09:24 PM
The Reds have stars and superstars in their outfield and upcoming OFers in Bruce, Stubbs and Dickerson. We have only one young, potential star 1st baseman and that's Joey Votto.

To answer your question BaseClogger: I trade Hamilton IF I have to (for a #1 type pitcher). Never, Ever trade Votto. How long has it been since we had a 1st baseman that could hit 30+hrs, hit .300+ and drive in 90-100rbi's. Yes, Hamilton can do that too, but we have a surplus in the outfield. Let's not talk about Dunn moving to first. No way.

Yeah, but Votto is not a good defensive firstbaseman. I think moving an outfielder there will be just as good as Votto defensively.
Also, I really like Cantu. He drives in runs from the right side, something that the Reds need. All the more reason to trade Votto.

AmarilloRed
11-30-2007, 12:37 AM
From all I have heard, he is a good defensive first baseman. His only defensive weakness is playing left field. There was some talk the Reds were concerned about his defense, but he did a really good job in September.

will5979
11-30-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm glad we have a closer. Now we must put forth the effort to make a serious run next year, not just a winning record, but playoffs and beyond. Its time to turn this team around. I sat the other day missing Riverfront Stadium because of the dominant teams that resided there. At the same time I was loathing GAB because of the crap teams that have resided there. Hopefully next year I can start to appreciate GAB in the retrospect of winning...something the Reds are destined to do...Cincinnati is a baseball town that should produce a good winning team EVERY year, no excuses...

I really miss the Reds of just a decade ago when the 90s wasn't a bad time to be a Reds fan, a World Series, an MVP, a 30-30 SS, a few playoffs, etc. I really miss the Reds of 20 years ago. No playoffs but hell at least they were winning, not to mention Peter Edward Rose being immortalized in baseball history, oh yeah and there was Browning perfect game. I was born in the late 70s so I would have given my left --- to have witnessed the greatness of the best team to every to take the field. I did get to see a few of the remaining BRM players in the 80s and I thank God for the fact that my earliest memory of attending a Reds game was hearing the PA announcer introduce Pete Rose and Rocky music came on.

To sum all this up I'm really jealous and spoiled. Spoiled by a tradition of winning throuhout my childhood and adolecense, (my adulthood has sucked as a Reds fan) and jealous at the fact that the Red Sox have surpassed us in the total number of World Series titles. Its almost unthinkable to ever catch the Yankees, but one day I would like to look at a baseball history book and see the Cincinnati Reds at the king of National League teams that have won the World Series. Call me a capitalist or an elistist but I want more banners hanging in left field...I really want three banners in a row in left field cause no NL team has ever won 3 consecutive WS. Basically I want the Reds to be the Yankees of the NL. I would like to see a decade of dominance like the 70s.

In short, I'm ready to watch the Reds win a World Series again, and again, and again!

AmarilloRed
11-30-2007, 12:15 PM
I was a child when the Reds won their 1975-1976 World Series, and I also closely watched the 1990 World Series team. It is a lot different now to establish a dynasty, but it can still be done. National League teams are at a severe disadvantage, but it can still be done with good player development and good handling of the financial resources you do have. We could easily have Harang-Arroyo-Bailey-Cueto take us to the playoffs several years in a row, but I don't know how many championships we would win. It is a lot harder to get to the World Series now, than when you simply had to win a pennant to make the World Series. I hope you are right and we can make the Reds the Yankees of the NL, but we still have a ways to go before that happens.

will5979
11-30-2007, 02:09 PM
We could easily have Harang-Arroyo-Bailey-Cueto take us to the playoffs several years in a row, but I don't know how many championships we would win.

I believe we have many quality players on this team and have for a while now...but I feel like Abe Lincoln in 1863, we have the men and when we find the right person to use them properly we will win. I feel that while Baker has a downside at least he is a reputable manager, really the first we have had since Davey Johnson. McKeon was likeable, but not great. I still feel to this day if we had the right manager in 99 a World Series banner would be hanging in LF.

Hopefully Dusty can properly lead these players to some titles for our franchise. I'm hoping and praying that more will be done to improve the team in the winter meetings.