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camisadelgolf
12-05-2007, 12:18 PM
This shows which GM brought each prospect to the Reds. Let me know if you notice any mistakes made or players who should be added.


Wayne Krivsky Dan O'Brien Jim Bowden Brad Kullman & Leland Maddox
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Todd Frazier Jay Bruce Joey Votto Ty Pelland
Drew Stubbs Homer Bailey Ryan Hanigan
Kyle Lotzkar Johnny Cueto Chris Dickerson
Devin Mesoraco Travis Wood Carlos Guevara
Matt Maloney Adam Rosales Richie Gardner
Sean Watson Pedro Viola Tom Pauly
Alex Smit Carlos Fisher Luis Montano
Neftali Soto Juan Francisco Tonys Gutierrez
Danny Dorn Ruben Medina Justin Mallett
Josh Roenicke Ramon Ramirez Brock Till
Daryl Thompson Craig Tatum Luis Bolivar
Justin Turner Paul Janish
Chris Valaika Jose Rojas
Zach Cozart Sam Lecure
Brandon Waring Drew Anderson
Marcus McBeth Michael Griffin
Scott Carroll Juan Rafael
Evan Hildebrandt Terrell Young
Tzu-Kai Chiu Rafael Gonzalez
Jordan Smith Ramon Geronimo
Sean Henry Misael DeJesus
Justin Reed Cody Strait
Jamie Gianchou Tom Shearn
Chris Heisey Angel Cabrera
Yen-Wen Kuo Denis Phipps
Brandon Menchaca Phil Valiquette
Ben Jukich Daniel Guerrero
Logan Parker Jake Long
Robert Manuel B.J. Szymanski
Derrik Lutz James Avery
Jamie Arneson Camilo Vazquez
Travis Webb Michael DeJesus
Brandon Rice Carlos Mendez
Brett Bartles Jose Bastardo
Shaun Cumberland Enerio Del Rosario
Efrain Rodriguez Chris Denove
Josh Ravin Anthony Esquer
Harris Honeycutt Eric Eymann
Jerry Gil Kevyn Feiner
Lee Tabor Jose Gualdron
Jeremy Horst Josh Holden
Alvin Colina Michael Jones
Jose Castro Chris Kroski
Tony Brown Logan Ondrusek
Charles Snowden James Morris
Kyle Maunus Gerardo Cabrera
Jordan Wideman Billy Rojo
Keltavious Jones Jeremiah Piepkorn
Kevin Gunter Justin Tordi
Dan Zeffiro
Tyler Rhoden
Jonathan Conatser
Michael McKennon
Carson Kainer
Drew Bowman
Mariekson Gregorius
Petr Cech
Mauro Schiavoni
Anthony Gressick
Tyler Hauschild
Jason Louwsma
Radhames Moreta
Eddy Rodriguez
Dan Donaldson
Jason Bour
Frank Meade
Ryan Baker
Eli Rimes
Joseph Krebs
Scott Gaffney
Raymond Jeffords
Matt Klinker
Anthony Romero
Curtis Partch
Alexis Oliveras
Todd Waller
Josh Beal
Brodie Pullen
Wayne Kendrick
Jake Kahaulelio
Steven Otterness
Jose Marizan
Thomas Fiebig
Victor Navarro
Aguido Gonzalez
Jeremy Vinyard
Ricky Rhodes
Jordan Hotchkiss
Leonardo Astorga

Highlifeman21
12-05-2007, 12:41 PM
So far, O'Brien netted more "highly touted" prospects, whereas Krivsky's netted us depth.

Advantage = Push.

AdamDunn
12-05-2007, 12:44 PM
Great post!

TRF
12-05-2007, 12:57 PM
Not sure how fair it is to include Bowden, Kullman and Maddox. JimBo was 4 years ago now, the other two had a very minimal impact. JimBo is currently responsible for 4 of 8 position players though. Dunn, Jr., EE and Votto.

I do like looking at a comparison of DanO and Kriv as far as prospect talent goes.

TRF
12-05-2007, 01:00 PM
Just going by this list, I'd say DanO's prospects had a MUCH higher ceiling than Kriv's so far. That could have been blind squirrel, draft class, or skill. Who knows.

camisadelgolf
12-05-2007, 01:00 PM
Not sure how fair it is to include Bowden, Kullman and Maddox. JimBo was 4 years ago now, the other two had a very minimal impact. JimBo is currently responsible for 4 of 8 position players though. Dunn, Jr., EE and Votto.

I do like looking at a comparison of DanO and Kriv as far as prospect talent goes.

It wasn't necessarily meant to be viewed as a competition between WayK, DanO, and JimBo--it's just an objective list of who acquired the Reds' current prospects.

GoReds33
12-05-2007, 01:03 PM
Great list. I think that this shows the tremendous effort O'Brien tried to make to restock the talent after Bowden.

TRF
12-05-2007, 01:03 PM
I get that. It seems like 4+ years later, and he is still influencing the Reds ML club.

camisadelgolf
12-05-2007, 01:05 PM
DanO has gotten a lot more out of the higher-round draft picks, but to be fair, Wayne Krivsky's draft picks haven't had as much time to produce, and it took three years for Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey to really blossom into the top prospects they are today.

camisadelgolf
12-05-2007, 01:07 PM
Great list. I think that this shows the tremendous effort O'Brien tried to make to restock the talent after Bowden.

That's what I take from it, too. I'm a big believer in Wayne Krivsky, but I'll give Dan O'Brien credit for taking huge steps in building the Reds' farm system. Unfortunately for him, he had a five-year plan and a three-year contract. Krivsky, on the other hand, seems to be fast forwarding similar progress, in my opinion.

TRF
12-05-2007, 01:11 PM
DanO has gotten a lot more out of the higher-round draft picks, but to be fair, Wayne Krivsky's draft picks haven't had as much time to produce, and it took three years for Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey to really blossom into the top prospects they are today.

Bruce and Bailey were HS picks. Stubbs was a college pick, he should be performing at a higher level by this time, especially coming out of the Big 12 conference.

camisadelgolf
12-05-2007, 01:16 PM
Bruce and Bailey were HS picks. Stubbs was a college pick, he should be performing at a higher level by this time, especially coming out of the Big 12 conference.

You just had to open that can of worms, didn't you? :D There is no doubt that Jay Bruce + Homer Bailey > Devin Mesoraco and Jay Bruce, but overall, I still prefer the Wayne Krivsky drafts.

M2
12-05-2007, 01:40 PM
Great list. I think that this shows the tremendous effort O'Brien tried to make to restock the talent after Bowden.

I'd say it shows just the opposite. Two years later and there's very little left of DanO's regime.

What's on that list? Two #1 picks? Great, they should be on the list. You've got two international signings. Cueto I love, but Francisco's got a .301 OB in low A, at best he's problematic.

Then you've got Wood and some sleepers.

DanO came away with very little beyond his top two picks in the gold star drafts of 2004 and 2005. That's the opposite of restocking.

If you want to see a tremendous effort, look at what Krivsky's done to augment his drafts. It's a little early to know if he's found much in the international waters (though Chiu and Cech are already in the system), but he's branched out beyond Latin America. He's also acquired for Maloney, McBeth, Smit, Thompson, Castro, Henry and Jukich from other organizations.

Bruce, Bailey and Cueto are nice, but they're really the bare minimum a front office should have produced through two talent-laden drafts and a major international signing push. The case for DanO strikes me as rather facile.

HBP
12-05-2007, 02:29 PM
O'Brien had the advantage of a #7 pick (Bailey) and having the #12 pick (Bruce) in one of the most talent heavy first rounds in decades. Also, GM's probably aren't involved as we might think in the amateur drafts. I know for sure Krivsky had a distant approach to the 2006 draft as he said so himself. He (they) should be held accountable though for the scouts that help make the draft day decisions.

M2
12-05-2007, 02:54 PM
O'Brien had the advantage of a #7 pick (Bailey) and having the #12 pick (Bruce) in one of the most talent heavy first rounds in decades. Also, GM's probably aren't involved as we might think in the amateur drafts. I know for sure Krivsky had a distant approach to the 2006 draft as he said so himself. He (they) should be held accountable though for the scouts that help make the draft day decisions.

Excellent post. GM's ask a few questions and give the overall strategy their blessing, but that's about it when it comes to the draft. The rest is delegated.

Betterread
12-06-2007, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=M2;1509557]Excellent post. GM's ask a few questions and give the overall strategy their blessing, but that's about it when it comes to the draft. The rest is delegated.[QUOTE]
So who makes the draft picks? Who decides to approve the trades? Who OKs the signing bonuses?
Who makes the final decisions? I'm under the impression that the GM is the person responsible for all of these things.
If you know otherwise, by all means tell us how the Reds organization does it. I'm curious to know.

edabbs44
12-06-2007, 11:39 PM
O'Brien had the advantage of a #7 pick (Bailey) and having the #12 pick (Bruce) in one of the most talent heavy first rounds in decades. Also, GM's probably aren't involved as we might think in the amateur drafts. I know for sure Krivsky had a distant approach to the 2006 draft as he said so himself. He (they) should be held accountable though for the scouts that help make the draft day decisions.

Krivsky had a #8 pick in '06 (where they dropped the ball) and had the #15 pick in '07. Not much of a difference between '04-'05 and '06-'07 except that Krivsky had a nice load of picks near the top of the draft in '07.

HBP
12-07-2007, 01:20 AM
Krivsky had a #8 pick in '06 (where they dropped the ball) and had the #15 pick in '07. Not much of a difference between '04-'05 and '06-'07 except that Krivsky had a nice load of picks near the top of the draft in '07.

The 2005 draft talent pool was enormous, point being it would've been hard to make a BAD pick.

Homer was the high school player of the year, threw 95+ with a sold frame and good mechanics. O'Brien didn't exactly put his neck on the line by picking him. What would Dan'O had done if the Brewers took Bailey instead of Rogers?

I really don't see the point in comparing the GM's anyway. Krivsky is here and Dan'O is in his office with all of his comforting binders. I could argue that had O'Brien not signed Eric Milton, they wouldn't have even been in that position to take Jay Bruce.

dougdirt
12-07-2007, 02:45 AM
The 2005 draft talent pool was enormous, point being it would've been hard to make a BAD pick.

Homer was the high school player of the year, threw 95+ with a sold frame and good mechanics. O'Brien didn't exactly put his neck on the line by picking him. What would Dan'O had done if the Brewers took Bailey instead of Rogers?

I really don't see the point in comparing the GM's anyway. Krivsky is here and Dan'O is in his office with all of his comforting binders. I could argue that had O'Brien not signed Eric Milton, they wouldn't have even been in that position to take Jay Bruce.

Dano had nothing to do with Eric Milton. He wanted no part of it. That was all Uncle Carl trying to grasp onto a failure of returning season ticket holders.

redsmetz
12-07-2007, 09:37 AM
Dano had nothing to do with Eric Milton. He wanted no part of it. That was all Uncle Carl trying to grasp onto a failure of returning season ticket holders.

I think the earlier poster meant that Milton made the Reds worse, thereby giving them a high draft pick; had we finished better, we wouldn't have had the chance to select Bruce.

Orenda
12-07-2007, 02:06 PM
Thats a good list, although one suggestion might be to add the players/prospects who have left or been brought in through deals: Jeff Stevens, Calvin Medlock, David Shafer, Russel Haltiwanger, Javon Moran, Brandon Roberts, Brendan Harris, Robert Manuel, Brandon Phillips, Cody Ross etc. I think that allows you to look back in a couple years and make a more accurate comparision of the GM's talent evaluation skills.

HBP
12-07-2007, 04:56 PM
Dano had nothing to do with Eric Milton. He wanted no part of it. That was all Uncle Carl trying to grasp onto a failure of returning season ticket holders.

Right...

"But, in truth, I couldn't envision that the ultimate conclusion to our offseason plan would culminate today with the addition of a legitimate upper-tier Major League starting pitcher like Eric Milton."
Link (http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20041227&content_id=926174&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=null)

cjtenn28
12-07-2007, 05:58 PM
Was it Dan O that brought us Chris Gruler?

camisadelgolf
12-07-2007, 06:00 PM
Was it Dan O that brought us Chris Gruler?

No, that was a Jim Bowden pick.

dougdirt
12-08-2007, 11:19 AM
Right...

"But, in truth, I couldn't envision that the ultimate conclusion to our offseason plan would culminate today with the addition of a legitimate upper-tier Major League starting pitcher like Eric Milton."
Link (http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20041227&content_id=926174&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=null)

What was he going to say? I heard about this before Milton even threw an inning as a Red, so it wasn't some type of back tracking after Milton stunk up the joint.

HokieRed
12-08-2007, 05:59 PM
I think it's worth remembering that there was a lot of frenzy that year to find a free agent starter that would make a big difference--when there weren't any available to speak of. The Milton decision is the kind of decision an organization makes when it convinces itself that it has to do something right now. Acting from self-induced weakness, it overpays, and the consequences usually are not very pretty. It can happen in a free agent signing or a trade. I would describe 99% of the trades I've heard being bandied about on these boards as ones where the Reds would be overpaying badly. I just hope it doesn't happen again. I'd love to look on Redszone and see that we did something really dull like sign Tomko or Lieber because that might mean we'll go on to do something a whole lot worse like trade Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Votto, or Hamilton (I'd even like to put EE on that list but will not).

HokieRed
12-08-2007, 06:00 PM
mistake: meant to say signing Lieber or Tomko would mean we won't go on to do something worse.

gedred69
12-08-2007, 08:15 PM
WOW!!! we actually had a guy with the name of Bastardo??!! God the missed opportunities running through my brain.....This could raise heckling to an entirely new level :p:

camisadelgolf
12-09-2007, 02:52 PM
WOW!!! we actually had a guy with the name of Bastardo??!! God the missed opportunities running through my brain.....This could raise heckling to an entirely new level :p:

There was a Jose Bastardo who played in the Giants' minor league system a few years ago, too.

TRF
12-10-2007, 02:59 PM
No, that was a John Allen pick.

fixed that for ya.

ChatterRed
12-11-2007, 11:38 AM
O'Brien had the advantage of a #7 pick (Bailey) and having the #12 pick (Bruce) in one of the most talent heavy first rounds in decades. Also, GM's probably aren't involved as we might think in the amateur drafts. I know for sure Krivsky had a distant approach to the 2006 draft as he said so himself. He (they) should be held accountable though for the scouts that help make the draft day decisions.


I agree.

Also, it takes about 3-4 years for a player to develop unless they are a phenom. So naturally Bowden and O'Brien would fare better in this comparison.

But I do like the depth that Krivsky's drafts have netted.

Praise or criticism should be more directed at the scouting staff rather than the GM's.

Ron Madden
12-12-2007, 04:10 AM
I agree.

Also, it takes about 3-4 years for a player to develop unless they are a phenom. So naturally Bowden and O'Brien would fare better in this comparison.

But I do like the depth that Krivsky's drafts have netted.

Praise or criticism should be more directed at the scouting staff rather than the GM's.


I always thought the GM hired and fired the scouting staff.

I've also been told the GM listens to every scouts argument pro or con, but the finale decission is always made by the GM. I could very well be wrong here. :dunno:

Many of my lifelong beliefs concerning this great game have been proven wrong in the past few years. Such as..There are better ways to judge a hitter than batting average. There are better ways to judge a pitcher than ERA.

I have no idea how to judge a GM other than his history of success in employing competent scouts and signing talented baseball players. I quess time will tell.