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ED44
12-14-2007, 06:27 PM
Just reported on Sportscenter...

Vada Pinson Fan
12-14-2007, 06:33 PM
I just read that, ED, at the Reds website, Here is what is being reported:

"PHOENIX -- The D-backs completed a deal to acquire right-handers Dan Haren and Connor Robertson from the A's in exchange for six prospects, it was announced Friday afternoon.
In addition, the D-backs sent closer Jose Valverde to the Astros in exchange for infielder Chris Burke and right-handers Chad Qualls and Juan Gutierrez.

Included in the trade to Oakland are pitchers Brett Anderson, Greg Smith and Dana Eveland along with outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham and first baseman Chris Carter."

What a shame but a too high of a price in talent. Wish the Reds could've gotten Haren but I'm glad we keep our guys, in this case.

ED44
12-14-2007, 06:37 PM
D-Backs also traded closer Valverde to the Astros for Chris Burke, Chad Qualls and another player.

Bip Roberts
12-14-2007, 06:37 PM
what the...

fadetoblack2880
12-14-2007, 06:39 PM
I wonder what this does for the asking price for Bedard? I'm sure it'll go up.

Bip Roberts
12-14-2007, 06:44 PM
I think Id rather keep our young guys after that deal

Vada Pinson Fan
12-14-2007, 06:44 PM
I wonder what this does for the asking price for Bedard? I'm sure it'll go up.


No doubt it will. If that is the asking price, well, I'm content to keep our Big 4 and be happy about it!

Terps
12-14-2007, 06:47 PM
No doubt it will. If that is the asking price, well, I'm content to keep our Big 4 and be happy about it!
I don't think it makes the price go up. I just think it makes it more likely that the Orioles get their price (from someone) and that it happens sooner than later. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Dodgers step up for Bedard big time after this trade.

757690
12-14-2007, 06:52 PM
I thought Chris Carter was traded to the Nationals, and then traded to the Red Sox for Wily Mo Pena?

Also, not a very high price in my mind, Besides Anderson and Carlos Gonzalez, I don't see any real big prospects. Looks like Billy Beane is in a rebuilding stage. Most of these guys are a year or two at least from producing at the major league level.

fadetoblack2880
12-14-2007, 06:55 PM
I thought Chris Carter was traded to the Nationals, and then traded to the Red Sox for Wily Mo Pena?

Also, not a very high price in my mind, Besides Anderson and Carlos Gonzalez, I don't see any real big prospects. Looks like Billy Beane is in a rebuilding stage. Most of these guys are a year or two at least from producing at the major league level.

Looks that way. May as well ship Blanton to Cincinnati. I can live with that.

BEETTLEBUG
12-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Well Haren is gone so which do you want or give up the lest for Harden or Blanton?

crazybob60
12-14-2007, 08:02 PM
WOW!!! This deal has surprised. I wonder if they dealt Valverde away so they could get another OF in Burke? Isn't he a hometown (Cincy or Louisville) boy?

For the teams involved, I actually like both deal in favor of the DBacks, especially if they want to try and contend right now, which apparently they are going to try to do.

We all know about Danny Haren...

He went 15-9 last year with 192 Strike Outs. He has pitched 5 years in the bigs, 2 of which were spent with the St. Louis Cardinals which were basically just I suppose spot starts (now that is a guess as I really don't know) and only 14 games pitched per year, then the last 3 years he was with the A's and was phenominal. All of which were basically his first three full seasons in the bigs. He won 14, 14, and 15 games each season, but again, he has had a high loss total each year with 12, 13, and 9. But I am not totally familiar with his whole stats, so it could be because of a lack of run support (similar to Arroyo this past season, which is very possibly with the way the A's have been part of the time.) What impresses me the most about him is that his Strike Outs go up each season progressive, at 163, 176, and now 192. Put him in a Pitchers ballpark and well, I expect nothing but lights out, from him....bad that he is going to the NL!!!! He does even have World Series experience when he pitched for the Cardinals in 2004 although they did lose.

Now Connor Robertson, the other player in the deal that comes over to the Backs from the Athletics...he only has 3 games of Major League experience, all last season with the A's and they were all relief games. He was exactly lights out either. His ERA in those 3 games was a bloated 18.00! His minor league stats look alright...but again, I am not an expert when it comes to those, it appears he had an ERA of 0.93 and had 13 saves in 25 in 2004 in his best Minor League season. He is already 26, and hasn't had hardly any MLB experience.

Now the guys the DBacks gave up to the Athletics...

First, Brett Anderson a pitcher, he is 19 years old, with no majors experience from what I can find, and pitched in the Minors for season with a record of 11-7 with an ERA of 3.07, and 125 strikeouts. This was split between A and A+ ball.

Greg Smith, a pitcher, who will be 24 in about a week, and hasn't seen any majors experience evidently from what I can find. 3 seasons in the Minors where he averages about 9 victories per year. His ERA is somewhere in the mid 2's to 3's and he averages about 100 or Strikeouts per season. Not too bad even though he is getting up in age.

Dana Eveland, also a Pitcher, has 3 years of majors experience with both the Brewers and Diamondbacks. He pitched in 27 games for the Brew Crew in 2005, and 9 in 2006 and then 5 in 2007. All of them mostly in relief. He does have a bloated ERA with last year in ARI with it being well over 14.00. His Minors experience looks much better as he has started many games down there and his ERA over 5 seasons is a shade over 2.50. Averaging about 100 K's per year, and in both 04 and 05 got 9 and 10 wins respectively. I believe he can be decent if made a starter.

Will dissect the rest of this trade and the other trade and what the DBacks will look like after I eat some dinner.....

schmidty622
12-14-2007, 08:21 PM
Houston defiantly got better in the last couple days

Bip Roberts
12-14-2007, 08:32 PM
Houston defiantly got better in the last couple days

I dont think so, right now they have 1 starting pitcher and 1 reliever, and just traded for a player that could see a steep decline soon.

schmidty622
12-14-2007, 08:54 PM
Miggy is far better than burke even after last year, and they Still have Pence, Berkman, and Lee. Kaz Matsui and Micheal Bourn give them some speed at the top of the lineup and Mark Loretta is still a very solid player. Thats a pretty good lineup. I think I would take it over the Reds current batting order.

Valverde and Oscar Villarreal make for a pretty good back of the bullpen but the rest of the relievers aren’t that good at all.

Their starting pitching is defiantly a weakness though with only Oswalt at the top. Wandy Rodriguez isn’t horrible, id take him over Belisle but he’s nothing to write home about.

Still I think they've improved their team.

757690
12-14-2007, 09:18 PM
Miggy is far better than burke even after last year, and they Still have Pence, Berkman, and Lee. Kaz Matsui and Micheal Bourn give them some speed at the top of the lineup and Mark Loretta is still a very solid player. Thats a pretty good lineup. I think I would take it over the Reds current batting order.

Valverde and Oscar Villarreal make for a pretty good back of the bullpen but the rest of the relievers arenít that good at all.

Their starting pitching is defiantly a weakness though with only Oswalt at the top. Wandy Rodriguez isnít horrible, id take him over Belisle but heís nothing to write home about.

Still I think they've improved their team.

Really?

Bourn
Kaz
Berkman
Tejada
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Towles

is better than

Hamilton
Votto
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
EE
Gonzalez
Ross


In the Astros lineup, everyone except for Pence and Bourne are on the decline, while everyone on the Reds except Griffey is young and improving.

The Astros will be entrenched in last place next year. They needed to address a terrible rotation, and addressed everything but that.

BearcatShane
12-14-2007, 09:25 PM
How about Hamilton, Bray, and Maloney for Blanton?

fewfirstchoice
12-14-2007, 09:35 PM
Arizona gets it,and it seems as of now the Reds dont.The backs got what they needed in Haren to put behind there ace.Now if only the Reds open their eyes and pull off a deal close to this for Bedard.I hope WK doesnt sit on his hands and doesnt get anything done.The Reds put money in a closer and now only need another starter to be a contender in 08.I realybelieve WK does get it and will step up and get Bedeard in a trade before its to late.

schmidty622
12-14-2007, 09:43 PM
Really?

Bourn
Kaz
Berkman
Tejada
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Towles

is better than

Hamilton
Votto
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
EE
Gonzalez
Ross


In the Astros lineup, everyone except for Pence and Bourne are on the decline, while everyone on the Reds except Griffey is young and improving.

The Astros will be entrenched in last place next year. They needed to address a terrible rotation, and addressed everything but that.

Their top 6 in the batting order is much better then the Reds top 6. Votto and Hamilton are both unproven. Griffey is on a steep decline. EE has been solid but will not be as good as Pence. Dunn is much worse then Lee defensively and probably his equal at the plate. And their lineup actually has a leadoff hitter, not Hamilton, who should be batting 3rd or 5th. Its a more complete major league lineup. Really Phillips is the only person that is far better then anyone in their lineup.

And Lee and Berkman are not on the decline, they are both only 31 and in their prime.

But your right their rotation is GOD AWFUL and they will not contend next year because of it.

crazybob60
12-14-2007, 10:23 PM
And now back to some analysis....

And the fourth player that the A's received was:

Carlos Gonzalez, an outfielder, who is 22 years old, I couldn't find a whole lot on him for some reason....but quoted directly from rotoworld....this is what it said on him...
"The 22-year-old Gonzalez had a rough first half in Double-A last season, but he bounced back after that and went on to hit .310/.396/.500 in 42 at-bats at Triple-A Tucson at the end of the year. Between both levels, he hit .288/.336/.478. He doesn't walk nearly as much as the A's like and he struggles mightily in lefty-lefty matchups, but he has the kind of bat speed that makes scouts drool and he should prove to be a very good defensive right fielder. If everything breaks right, he'll be a star. The A's will want him to spend most of 2008 in Triple-A improving his approach."

Now Aaron Cunningham, which just in name is constantly making me think of Happy Days, for obvious reason, but getting back to subject, he is a 21 year that has spent time in both the Arizona and White Sox farm systems, playing all over the OF. He has decent power and hits for average with a career average over .300 during 3 minor league seasons.

And finally Chris Carter, who is 25 years old, yet has yet to reach the big leagues. He has been in the Minors for four seasons with Arizona and Boston, playing both 1B and OF. He has big time power hitting .310 with 86 homers in those four seasons with his high being 31 in 2005.

Overall, I believe the Diamondbacks may have gotten away with one here, but only time will tell....heck, prospects develop differently and some of these fellas may have just needed a change in scenery!

crazybob60
12-14-2007, 10:51 PM
Now for the second deal, where the Astros received saves leader Jose Valverde and the Diamonbacks received Chris Burke, Chad Qualls, and Juan Gutierrez.

Juan Gutierrez is a 23 year old who both started 3 games for the Astros last season and relieved 4 games in his only appearance at the big show thusfar. He was 1-1 with 16 K's and a 5.91 ERA. He was decent in the Minors but nothing to write home to Mom about either.

Chris Burke as I stated earlier is somewhat of a hometown product from Louisville, KY. He is 27 years old and has played in the majors for four seasons, all with the Astros thusfar. He was a utility guy coming in mostly off of the bench and able to play almost any position on the field. He could be very useful in Arizona.

And finally Chad Qualls is 29 years old, playing all four of his big league seasons with the Astros. All of his appearances have come in relief and the last three seasons, he has pitched in 77, 81, and 79 games. He even battled for some saves last year when the Houston closer job was in disarray and attained 5 saves. His ERA seems to always hover around 3 as well. I could see him being a solid setup man in Arizona and since the closer is now gone, I could also see him battling for the closer job as well.

And now the Astros receive a closer that they have been looking for since their bullpen imploded last season and they hopefully will have one that can be reliable since the days of Billy Wagner (although we hope not since they are in our division!!!)

Jose Valverde is primarily a Closer, who is 28 years old, who has pitched all 5 of his big league seasons in an Arizona DBacks uniform. He has always come in in relief, and has 98 career saves, and notched 47 saves last season, which all of the Majors! This will definitely boost the Astros bullpen!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, I think the Diamondbacks got the better end of the deal in the A's trade, but probably came up even in not a little behind in the Astros trade. They lost their closer and other than obtaining Chad Qualls who could possibly save games for them, they really do not have anybody unless they are targeting another player in a trade or someone who is a Free Agent.

Isn't Octavio Dotel now a Free Agent? Possibly him? Oh yeah, possibly Tony Pena for this closer job as well and he is already a Diamondback as well...how did I forget about him?


I am also really liking how the Arizona starting staff is shaping up...especially if Randy Johnson comes back even somewhat healthy. With the addition of Haren, it makes Randy more than likely the number 3 starter which will only benefit him.

Their staff is looking like this:

1. Brandon Webb -- Consistently puts up Cy Young numbers
2. Dan Haren -- Fantastic young hurler who wins about 15 ballgames a year and with an improved lineup even somewhat can go much beyond that!
3. Randy Johnson -- Former Cy Young winner that can possibly return to even a shell of his former self, the DBacks will probably be happy.
4. Doug Davis -- Always good for double digit wins, but also good for double digit losses as well. He can pretty much get you to the 7th inning if not longer as well.
5. Micah Owings -- Had a solid rookie campaign that also showed he knew how to use the lumber as well!

That starting five could be scary, let's just hope we get Bedard so we can counter!

Bip Roberts
12-14-2007, 11:19 PM
Miggy is far better than burke even after last year, and they Still have Pence, Berkman, and Lee. Kaz Matsui and Micheal Bourn give them some speed at the top of the lineup and Mark Loretta is still a very solid player. Thats a pretty good lineup. I think I would take it over the Reds current batting order.

Valverde and Oscar Villarreal make for a pretty good back of the bullpen but the rest of the relievers arenít that good at all.

Their starting pitching is defiantly a weakness though with only Oswalt at the top. Wandy Rodriguez isnít horrible, id take him over Belisle but heís nothing to write home about.

Still I think they've improved their team.

i stopped reading right there

HokieRed
12-14-2007, 11:37 PM
If you trade Bailey, Hamilton, and somebody else, say, for Bedard, all you've really done is acquired the difference between Bedard and Homer while weakening yourself at at least one position and possibly two. How does that make the Reds a contender? The only thing that could possibly make them a contender for is the award for being the least mediocre team in the mediocre Central. The difference between the D'backs and the Reds is that the D'backs were and are actual contenders and in a much better division than the Reds. The Reds are not there yet and they still need depth of possibilities more than anything else.

larks
12-15-2007, 12:12 AM
I dont really think this trade drives up the price for Bedard at all. One Haren was a more valuable commodity than Bedard. Really only Gonzalez and Anderson project to be stars but they would both be below Votto and Bailey as prospects. They gave up a lot of players but in terms of value that package probably equals a Votto/Bailey package. I dont see how the Orioles can expect much more for Bedard though they may get it from the Dodgers if they decide to counter the DBacks.

larks
12-15-2007, 12:19 AM
As for the Astros discussion... There is no question in my mind that the entire Astros organization keeps on tumbling down the hill. The major league roster is worse than it was last year. Yeah the middle of the lineup is formidable but with Kaz and Bourn leading off no one will be on base for Tejada, Berkman and Lee. Their rotation is awful...right now its Wandy Rodriguez or Woody Williams as their #2. Their bullpen outside of Valverde and Villarreal consists of Dave Borkowski, Doug Brocail, and Geoff Geary. And now after their latest trades they may have the worst farm system in baseball. Even the Diamondbacks after sending out their top five prospects today have better prospects.

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 06:42 AM
As for the Astros discussion... There is no question in my mind that the entire Astros organization keeps on tumbling down the hill. The major league roster is worse than it was last year. Yeah the middle of the lineup is formidable but with Kaz and Bourn leading off no one will be on base for Tejada, Berkman and Lee. Their rotation is awful...right now its Wandy Rodriguez or Woody Williams as their #2. Their bullpen outside of Valverde and Villarreal consists of Dave Borkowski, Doug Brocail, and Geoff Geary. And now after their latest trades they may have the worst farm system in baseball. Even the Diamondbacks after sending out their top five prospects today have better prospects.

Id rather have Bourn or Matsui leading off then Hamilton. Thats not saying they are better players, they're just better suited for the first spot in the lineup.

Bip Roberts
12-15-2007, 08:59 AM
Id rather have Bourn or Matsui leading off then Hamilton. Thats not saying they are better players, they're just better suited for the first spot in the lineup.

You might want to check out Kaz Matsuis and Bourns stats away from thier home parks last year
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7250/splits;_ylt=AtG0LFPJhE1qbqOCQAF0eWGFCLcF

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7828/splits;_ylt=AtG0LFPJhE1qbqOCQAF0eWGFCLcF

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-15-2007, 09:50 AM
Their top 6 in the batting order is much better then the Reds top 6. Votto and Hamilton are both unproven. Griffey is on a steep decline. EE has been solid but will not be as good as Pence. Dunn is much worse then Lee defensively and probably his equal at the plate. And their lineup actually has a leadoff hitter, not Hamilton, who should be batting 3rd or 5th. Its a more complete major league lineup. Really Phillips is the only person that is far better then anyone in their lineup.

And Lee and Berkman are not on the decline, they are both only 31 and in their prime.

But your right their rotation is GOD AWFUL and they will not contend next year because of it.I agree with alot of what you said, but what about Griffeys numbers last year would lead you to say he's on a "steep decline".

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 03:56 PM
I agree with alot of what you said, but what about Griffeys numbers last year would lead you to say he's on a "steep decline".


Your right, steep decline is way too harsh. He is still a above average player at least at the plate, and he provides solid defense. The injuries in what seems like many consecutive years now make that statement seem more truthful but I was too quick to judge in saying that.

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 04:11 PM
You might want to check out Kaz Matsuis and Bourns stats away from thier home parks last year
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7250/splits;_ylt=AtG0LFPJhE1qbqOCQAF0eWGFCLcF

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7828/splits;_ylt=AtG0LFPJhE1qbqOCQAF0eWGFCLcF

Iím not saying Hamilton isnít a good player. Iím saying his skills are not maximized by batting him leadoff. He is one of the better hitters with runners on that the Reds have and he should ideally be used that way. He would make a killer #5 batter in my opinion.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 04:22 PM
Id rather have Bourn or Matsui leading off then Hamilton. Thats not saying they are better players, they're just better suited for the first spot in the lineup.



Iím not saying Hamilton isnít a good player. Iím saying his skills are not maximized by batting him leadoff. He is one of the better hitters with runners on that the Reds have and he should ideally be used that way. He would make a killer #5 batter in my opinion.

Have you ever heard of onbase%?

Hamilton 2007-.368
Matsui 2007-.342
Bourn career minor league- .377

So, Josh Hamilton had a higher onbase% than Matsui last year after being out of baseball for a couple of years. Matsui's onbase% was also inflated by his battting avg at Coors. You would expect Bourn's onbase% to be a little lower against big league competition. So how is it that they make better leadoff hitters? We have plently of power, so we do not need Hamilton batting later in the order. Just look at his power leadoff as a luxury...

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 04:24 PM
Arizona gets it,and it seems as of now the Reds dont.The backs got what they needed in Haren to put behind there ace.Now if only the Reds open their eyes and pull off a deal close to this for Bedard.I hope WK doesnt sit on his hands and doesnt get anything done.The Reds put money in a closer and now only need another starter to be a contender in 08.I realybelieve WK does get it and will step up and get Bedeard in a trade before its to late.

we must not lose sight of the team beyond 2008. Sure, we would by better in 2008 with a Bedard trade, but we would be better in 2009, 2010, and 2011 if we do not do a Bedard trade...

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 04:25 PM
Houston defiantly got better in the last couple days

At this point Luke Scott is just as good a hitter as Tejada and Qualls is just as good a pitcher as Valverde. So now that they have ABOSOLUTELY NO farm system, how is the Houston organization better?

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Arizona gets it,and it seems as of now the Reds dont.The backs got what they needed in Haren to put behind there ace.Now if only the Reds open their eyes and pull off a deal close to this for Bedard.I hope WK doesnt sit on his hands and doesnt get anything done.The Reds put money in a closer and now only need another starter to be a contender in 08.I realybelieve WK does get it and will step up and get Bedeard in a trade before its to late.

The Diamondbacks just gave up their #1, 3, 7, and 8 best prospects according to BA plus 2 more for Haren. I think we can agree that although the Reds have more top-end talent in their farm system, the Diamonbacks and Reds are similar in overall depth. Assuming the Orioles have about the same asking price for Bedard the Reds would have to surrender (I'll use the Redszone list from the MinorLeague forum):
#1 Jay Bruce
#3 Johnny Cueto
#7 Matt Maloney
#8 Josh Roenicke
plus 2 other prospects

Obviously, I know the deal would not look exactly like this, but my point is would you really want to give up this much young talent for 2 years of Erik Bedard?

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 05:11 PM
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

The speed that Matsui or Bourn have lets them be more valuable assests when they do get on base. While Hamilton has to rely on someone putting the ball in play to advance, Matsui and Bourn can steal bases to help put their team in a better position to score. They actually do something with their OBP then sit on base and wait to get driven in.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 06:07 PM
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

The speed that Matsui or Bourn have lets them be more valuable assests when they do get on base. While Hamilton has to rely on someone putting the ball in play to advance, Matsui and Bourn can steal bases to help put their team in a better position to score. They actually do something with their OBP then sit on base and wait to get driven in.

so you agree with that quote?

EDIT- Who would you have rather been your lead-off hitter last year: Kelly Johnson or Juan Pierre?

Bip Roberts
12-15-2007, 06:28 PM
I’m not saying Hamilton isn’t a good player. I’m saying his skills are not maximized by batting him leadoff. He is one of the better hitters with runners on that the Reds have and he should ideally be used that way. He would make a killer #5 batter in my opinion.

Just because Hamilton is a better suited to be a middle of the line up guy doesnt mean hes a worse lead off hitter

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 06:32 PM
I never said he was worse, I said I would prefer Bourn or Matsui over him in the leadoff role. Its how I would personally want my lineup constructed.

And I would go with Juan Pierre as my leadoff man if we're using last years stats. Or the year before that for that matter.

Bip Roberts
12-15-2007, 06:42 PM
I never said he was worse, I said I would prefer Bourn or Matsui over him in the leadoff role. Its how I would personally want my lineup constructed.

And I would go with Juan Pierre as my leadoff man if we're using last years stats. Or the year before that for that matter.

whats the point of a lead off man if he never gets on base? Why not just bat David Ross 1st and get the same results

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 06:53 PM
Or Adam Dunn? He had sky high OBP. That worked out well.

Bip Roberts
12-15-2007, 06:56 PM
Your point has some vaid but not when the guys you are saying you would rather have is Kaz Matsui who is terrible.

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 08:44 PM
Actually Adam Dunn leadoff would be better than Juan Pierre...

*BaseClogger*
12-15-2007, 08:48 PM
You can have Juan Pierre or Michael Bourn and their steals, and I'll take Kelly Johnson or Josh Hamilton's .375 OBP and their .450/.550 slugpct...

schmidty622
12-15-2007, 09:48 PM
Because that Adam Dunn leadoff experament really turned out to be the best thing for the Reds. I will take my steals and ill take my traditional leadoff hitter, and at the same time so will most of the teams in major leauge baseball.

757690
12-15-2007, 09:51 PM
You can have Juan Pierre or Michael Bourn and their steals, and I'll take Kelly Johnson or Josh Hamilton's .375 OBP and their .450/.550 slugpct...

Not sure what the stats are on this throughout history, but I think the Big Red Machine did alright with a slow, high OBP guy leading off for them.

Also, lead off hitters are overrated. They tend to lead off innings only slightly more than other slots in the order. I believe that Bill James said that the number 5 hitter leads off an inning almost as often as the leadoff hitter.

Bip Roberts
12-16-2007, 03:20 AM
Because that Adam Dunn leadoff experament really turned out to be the best thing for the Reds. I will take my steals and ill take my traditional leadoff hitter, and at the same time so will most of the teams in major leauge baseball.

Yes the idea of having a fast guy who never gets on base is a better idea than having a slower guy who is on base a ton is a great one. I couldnt imagine trying to win any games with Ross, Pitcher and automatic out matsui in any major league line up. You are practically playing 6 innings of baseball that way.

But hey at least a guy might steal a base.

*BaseClogger*
12-16-2007, 02:12 PM
Because that Adam Dunn leadoff experament really turned out to be the best thing for the Reds. I will take my steals and ill take my traditional leadoff hitter, and at the same time so will most of the teams in major leauge baseball.

And I will score more runs... :eek:

*BaseClogger*
12-16-2007, 02:13 PM
Not sure what the stats are on this throughout history, but I think the Big Red Machine did alright with a slow, high OBP guy leading off for them.

Also, lead off hitters are overrated. They tend to lead off innings only slightly more than other slots in the order. I believe that Bill James said that the number 5 hitter leads off an inning almost as often as the leadoff hitter.

Very good point. The lineup doesn't even really matter. But when it is the middle of December and a bunch of Reds fans are pumped because the team spent some money it is what we end up doing...

tts1stros
12-16-2007, 03:50 PM
At this point Luke Scott is just as good a hitter as Tejada and Qualls is just as good a pitcher as Valverde. So now that they have ABOSOLUTELY NO farm system, how is the Houston organization better?

Luke Scott is an outfielder on a team with no room in the outfield. Tejada plays shortstop on a team who needs a shortstop.

We'll see how much of an upgrade Valverde is from Qualls. If set-up men do prove easier to find than closers then it oculd be interesting but I don't think the upgrade will be tremendous.

But in regards to how the Houston organization is better...they traded prospects for the MLB saves leader and Tejada. This is about 2008. This is "Going For It" (tm)

*BaseClogger*
12-16-2007, 03:54 PM
Luke Scott is an outfielder on a team with no room in the outfield. Tejada plays shortstop on a team who needs a shortstop.

We'll see how much of an upgrade Valverde is from Qualls. If set-up men do prove easier to find than closers then it oculd be interesting but I don't think the upgrade will be tremendous.

But in regards to how the Houston organization is better...they traded prospects for the MLB saves leader and Tejada. This is about 2008. This is "Going For It" (tm)

What about all the $$$ owed to Tejada? Plus, the difference between Everett and Tejada's defense will make up part of the difference between their bats...

tts1stros
12-16-2007, 04:17 PM
What about all the $$$ owed to Tejada? Plus, the difference between Everett and Tejada's defense will make up part of the difference between their bats...

The money is not a concern. The Astros have a lot of deferred and expiring money coming off the books ($16 million from Jeff Bagwell alone).

Regarding Everett...I hope this doesn't turn into a huge rant.

I was furious when I heard about the Tejada trade. I don't care what anybody says about his offense; Adam Everett is the best shortstop in the game. People who hate on Adam Everett don't watch the Astros play every day. He's retardedly good. He's super-human. Bill James said "If Ozzie Smith was as good as Adam Everett, he was incredible." Talk radio idiots wail about his .250 batting average. I don't care if he hits .150. Yes, he's THAT good.

But then I started hearing that his leg is really hurt. Really, really hurt. He broke his leg last year in an outfield collision with Carlos Lee, and that his leg might be damaged. It might not ever be the same. And if that's true, he's done. When you're a one-trick pony, you'd better the the absolute best at that trick.

So, in response to this...

Plus, the difference between Everett and Tejada's defense will make up part of the difference between their bats...
is that if his career is in fact over, then it isn't a choice between trading Everett's defense/bat for Tejada's. It's about acquiring a shortstop when you suddenly don't have one.

schmidty622
12-16-2007, 05:16 PM
Your all right. David Ortiz is a MUCH better leadoff man then Jose Reyes because he gets on base so much more. Who cares if he only gets to third on someone’s double. Or that he puts no pressure on the defense. Oh when will the Red Sox learn and put him in the number one hole they've been so unsuccessful without him there.

The Rockies too, how could they dare not bat Todd Helton leadoff, what are they thinking?!?!?

Bip Roberts
12-16-2007, 05:38 PM
You are comparing Jose Reyes to Kaz mastui?

Lets also be silly and think that just because we have a good line up we should weaken it because for some reason you think Kaz Mastui is a great lead off hitter.

*BaseClogger*
12-16-2007, 05:39 PM
Your all right. David Ortiz is a MUCH better leadoff man then Jose Reyes because he gets on base so much more. Who cares if he only gets to third on someoneís double. Or that he puts no pressure on the defense. Oh when will the Red Sox learn and put him in the number one hole they've been so unsuccessful without him there.

The Rockies too, how could they dare not bat Todd Helton leadoff, what are they thinking?!?!?

Todd Helton leadoff is a good idea... The David Ortiz thing doesn't make any sense. Ortiz clearly should be the #3 hitter because that is where you best overall hitter should bat. We were talking about Kaz Matsui/Josh Hamilton, and the fact that since Dunn prolly won't bat 3rd or 4th, I think he could bat leadoff...

Hondo
12-16-2007, 06:18 PM
If Krivsky doesn't land Bedard or Santana or BOTH. It was a waste of MONEY to sign Cordero if the Reds don't plan to contend the first 8 Innings.

Thanks

BucksandReds
12-16-2007, 06:41 PM
If Krivsky doesn't land Bedard or Santana or BOTH. It was a waste of MONEY to sign Cordero if the Reds don't plan to contend the first 8 Innings.

Thanks

Did you see that stat last year that showed that if the Reds bullpen was league average then we would have been over 500 and that if it was the best in the central (St. Louis's I believe) then we would have won the Central? We have 3 guys that are capable of their role as starters (Harang, Arroyo, Belisle(5th).) We have Bailey who was 4-2 last year and will get a chance to prove what all of the SCouts have been saying. We will have 1 of the most potent offenses in the league and now a Fransisco Cordero signing is bad if we don't also trade the farm, literally, for one of the best pitchers in baseball for 1-2 years. I realize that most teams have a small window but the Reds window appears to probably be at it's peak in 2 years. We'll have everyone but Griffey and Dunn and Bruce, Votto, Hamilton, Bailey, Cueto and Burton will have had their chance to prove themselves as good as they are touted to be. If we could get Santana for 1 year and only have to trade an EE and Stubbs type or Bedard for 2 years with a Bailey and EE type then I'm all for it. If either of those teams demands Jay Bruce then they can kiss my *ss. If we want to pay Santana 20 million then we can wait a year and get him w/o having to give up our farm.

Hondo
12-16-2007, 08:18 PM
I would only want the Reds to give up Prospects if they could sign Bedard and/or Santana to LTC using the 72 Hour window MLB has for those kind of trades...

Thanks

schmidty622
12-17-2007, 12:00 AM
Todd Helton leadoff is a good idea... The David Ortiz thing doesn't make any sense. Ortiz clearly should be the #3 hitter because that is where you best overall hitter should bat. We were talking about Kaz Matsui/Josh Hamilton, and the fact that since Dunn prolly won't bat 3rd or 4th, I think he could bat leadoff...

If Todd Helton batting leadoff would be such a good idea then how come nobody has put him there? I think there are people in baseball smarter than you or I, so why hasnít this revolutionary idea of putting your power hitters that get on base a lot in the 1 hole taken the league by storm?

If Dunn bats leadoff look forward to another disappointing year. I cant wait to see Dunn with 40 homers and 60 RBIs. That would be wonderful

And I never said Kaz Matsui = Jose Reyes. What I said was that since David Ortiz led the league in OBP he would make for a better leadoff hitter. Then Dustin Pedrioa could knock him in with his ground ball through the third-short gap.

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 12:21 AM
If Todd Helton batting leadoff would be such a good idea then how come nobody has put him there? I think there are people in baseball smarter than you or I, so why hasn’t this revolutionary idea of putting your power hitters that get on base a lot in the 1 hole taken the league by storm?

If Dunn bats leadoff look forward to another disappointing year. I cant wait to see Dunn with 40 homers and 60 RBIs. That would be wonderful

And I never said Kaz Matsui = Jose Reyes. What I said was that since David Ortiz led the league in OBP he would make for a better leadoff hitter. Then Dustin Pedrioa could knock him in with his ground ball through the third-short gap.

You are once again trying to put Mastui into some class that he totally doesnt fit into. If the reds had a better option at lead off they would put someone there but they just dont need to put a terrible batter lead off for the sake of getting hamilton down the order. Its not like Hamilton is the only power hitter we have in the line up. He is better suited for middle of hte line up but hes worlds better than kaz mastui in the lead off role.

If Dunn had to bat with Kaz Matsui in front of him he would never get an RBI either beacuse the guy is never on base.

schmidty622
12-17-2007, 02:45 PM
You are once again trying to put Mastui into some class that he totally doesnt fit into. If the reds had a better option at lead off they would put someone there but they just dont need to put a terrible batter lead off for the sake of getting hamilton down the order. Its not like Hamilton is the only power hitter we have in the line up. He is better suited for middle of hte line up but hes worlds better than kaz mastui in the lead off role.

If Dunn had to bat with Kaz Matsui in front of him he would never get an RBI either beacuse the guy is never on base.

No your wrong. Kaz Matsui scored 82 runs last year, stole 32 bases and had a better OBP then Brandon Phillips by 11 points. If Brandon Phillips can score over 100 runs when getting on base at a slower clip then Matsui could do it too with the same lineup batting behind him.

Your characterization of Matsui as someone who does not belong in the major leagues is just stupid.

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 02:51 PM
No your wrong. Kaz Matsui scored 82 runs last year, stole 32 bases and had a better OBP then Brandon Phillips by 11 points. If Brandon Phillips can score over 100 runs when getting on base at a slower clip then Matsui could do it too with the same lineup batting behind him.

Your characterization of Matsui as someone who does not belong in the major leagues is just stupid.

Check out his home away splits last year genius. I never said he isnt a major leaguer either but im not going to say that hes some amazing lead off hitter when hes flat out terrible. He was on a team that unless im wrong scored the most runs in the NL last year and still only got 82 runs scored :laugh: Great production if you ask me.

schmidty622
12-17-2007, 02:52 PM
They do have a better option and his name is Norris Hopper.

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 02:53 PM
Im not sitting dunn junior or hamilton for norris hopper

schmidty622
12-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Check out his home away splits last year genius. I never said he isnt a major leaguer either but im not going to say that hes some amazing lead off hitter when hes flat out terrible. He was on a team that unless im wrong scored the most runs in the NL last year and still only got 82 runs scored :laugh: Great production if you ask me.

He also had only 450 ABs while Phillips had over 600, on the team that scored the second most runs.

And go ahead and find a quote where I said Matsui was some great leadoff hitter. Because I never did.

schmidty622
12-17-2007, 02:58 PM
Im not sitting dunn junior or hamilton for norris hopper


Well have fun watching the ball fly out of GABP and the Cubs or some other NLC team in October.

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 03:01 PM
He also had only 450 ABs while Phillips had over 600, on the team that scored the second most runs.

And go ahead and find a quote where I said Matsui was some great leadoff hitter. Because I never did.

Phillips was batting in the middle of the order...

You cant be serious and look at Matsuis away numbers and think hes worth top of the line up spot in any major league line up. I think this is possibly the stupidest argument in the history of baseball. Josh Hamilton leading off is vastly superior than Kaz Matsui and i wouldnt care if he stole 150 bases.

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 03:03 PM
Well have fun watching the ball fly out of GABP and the Cubs or some other NLC team in October.

Yes because high slugging and high obp is terrible, gotta get those low obp guys in the line up especially if they can steal a base once every 15 at bats

*BaseClogger*
12-17-2007, 09:07 PM
You cant be serious and look at Matsuis away numbers and think hes worth top of the line up spot in any major league line up. I think this is possibly the stupidest argument in the history of baseball. Josh Hamilton leading off is vastly superior than Kaz Matsui and i wouldnt care if he stole 150 bases.

yeah pretty much

*BaseClogger*
12-17-2007, 09:09 PM
If Todd Helton batting leadoff would be such a good idea then how come nobody has put him there? I think there are people in baseball smarter than you or I, so why hasnít this revolutionary idea of putting your power hitters that get on base a lot in the 1 hole taken the league by storm?

If Dunn bats leadoff look forward to another disappointing year. I cant wait to see Dunn with 40 homers and 60 RBIs. That would be wonderful

And I never said Kaz Matsui = Jose Reyes. What I said was that since David Ortiz led the league in OBP he would make for a better leadoff hitter. Then Dustin Pedrioa could knock him in with his ground ball through the third-short gap.

The thing is, Todd Helton isn't really a power hitter anymore. And David Ortiz should not hit leadoff because his team doesn't have like 4 other guys that can slug .500 like the Reds have outside of Dunn...