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ChatterRed
12-17-2007, 10:03 PM
.....to go into next season without an additional quality pitcher to add to the starting rotation. I can feel it.

The organization will decide to stand pat and stick with the young guys. Only if some team steps up and wants Bailey or Hamilton in a reasonable package and I have yet to see reasonable come into play in any trade so far.

This team will look much the same next season except for the addition of Cordero to the bullpen.

Hopefully the young guys are coming along and make the season worthwhile.

thatcoolguy_22
12-17-2007, 10:05 PM
.....to go into next season without an additional quality pitcher to add to the starting rotation. I can feel it.

The organization will decide to stand pat and stick with the young guys. Only if some team steps up and wants Bailey or Hamilton in a reasonable package and I have yet to see reasonable come into play in any trade so far.

This team will look much the same next season except for the addition of Cordero to the bullpen.

Hopefully the young guys are coming along and make the season worthwhile.

yeah... what he said.

I think the 2nd half of the year will be very exciting though as the young guys start to turn the corner

*BaseClogger*
12-17-2007, 10:16 PM
Who costs more in a trade: Joe Blanton or Ian Snell? I'm not going to give up on Snell...

mlbfan30
12-17-2007, 10:17 PM
And what makes them not ready right now?
Votto is ready 100%
Bailey is ready, he's done with AAA
Bruce is ready but has no spot right now.
Cueto is ready... based on the fact he's dominated at every level he's played at and is probably better than Bailey

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 10:17 PM
If Bailey and Cueto pitch even mediocre next year we will be much better.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-17-2007, 10:19 PM
yeah... what he said.

I think the 2nd half of the year will be very exciting though as the young guys start to turn the corner
How excititing could it be if we are 7 games under 500 because our pitching staff is riddled with question marks. We can all hope that will not be the case but I would have to call it a huge mistake not to sign an arm after spending the big bucks on Cordero and Dusty.

*BaseClogger*
12-17-2007, 10:20 PM
If Bailey and Cueto pitch even mediocre next year we will be much better.

All we need is some league average inning eating to inprove... Those guys we threw out their last year killed us...

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 10:25 PM
All we need is some league average inning eating to inprove... Those guys we threw out their last year killed us...

Well i feel much better running Bailey and Cueto out there than i do compared to what we had to run out there pretty much all of last year. We addressed out biggest problem if you ask me in the offseason in bullpen help and we have the pieces in the rotation its just a matter of how they throw.


Bailey and Cueto both can be pretty bad and we still are a better team than last year.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-17-2007, 10:27 PM
Well i feel much better running Bailey and Cueto out there than i do compared to what we had to run out there pretty much all of last year. We addressed out biggest problem if you ask me in the offseason in bullpen help and we have the pieces in the rotation its just a matter of how they throw.


Bailey and Cueto both can be pretty bad and we still are a better team than last year.
I agree, the question is will Wayne allow Cueto to start the year in Cinci?

Stephenk29
12-17-2007, 10:28 PM
I think I've asked this before, so my apologies if its repetitive. Has Snell been in a lot of rumors? Why would the Pirates trade a strong young pitcher when they are such a high commodity? I know its the Pirates and they've done some really stupid moves, they are shopping Bay after all.

gedred69
12-17-2007, 10:31 PM
Agree with the views to at least some extent. But, it seems to me a lot of GMs know what the Reds have up and coming, and are trying to acquire their future at the Reds expense. I'm getting tired of hearing how feeble the system has been at developing players, and now, that they at least appear to be loaded with bona fide players and a couple good pitchers-to-be, people want to ransom the future for any 1 guy not named Santana! (Whom they could never hold onto anyway).

Bip Roberts
12-17-2007, 10:35 PM
I do get the feeling that teams are unwilling to trade with us unless we give up our best prospects, and when that top prospect was a minor league player of the year i agree with wayne by not letting him go.

BucksandReds
12-17-2007, 11:08 PM
Whats wrong with Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Bailey and the best of Shearn, Livingston, Maloney and Cueto? Bailey showed me reason to believe that he will be a top half of the rotation type guy very soon due to the fact that he threw alot more quality starts than not and can be dominate at times. For a first year starter he was far better than average. Look at most great pitchers in their first 10-20 starts. We are on the way up. I believe that after a decade of no playoffs a little patience is what is needed. With the farm system we have right now I'd rather bet on the farm than bet it.

jmac
12-17-2007, 11:14 PM
.....to go into next season without an additional quality pitcher to add to the starting rotation. I can feel it.

The organization will decide to stand pat and stick with the young guys. Only if some team steps up and wants Bailey or Hamilton in a reasonable package and I have yet to see reasonable come into play in any trade so far.

This team will look much the same next season except for the addition of Cordero to the bullpen.

Hopefully the young guys are coming along and make the season worthwhile.

I still can not believe Bob C had Baker/Cordero brought in here to stand pat.
Also WK has made plenty of comments about improving our pitching and I think WK is in the last year of his current contract so I think adding up all these factors, there will be a move made.
Whether that move is a big enough one like Bedard remains to be seen.
Again, I believe the moves already made were made for a reason.

fadetoblack2880
12-17-2007, 11:22 PM
I don't believe they'll stand pat, I just don't see them acquiring the top of the line starter that we all want. Krivsky will probably have to settle for a Leiber or Hernandez. Maybe even Prior. I would love to see them acquire Bedard or Blanton, but it's only December. It's not like the trading deadline is next week. There is still plenty of time.

*BaseClogger*
12-18-2007, 12:40 AM
I think I've asked this before, so my apologies if its repetitive. Has Snell been in a lot of rumors? Why would the Pirates trade a strong young pitcher when they are such a high commodity? I know its the Pirates and they've done some really stupid moves, they are shopping Bay after all.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/tigers-willing.html

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/starks-latest-s.html

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/pirates-rumors.html

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/rockies-pursuin.html

mlbfan30
12-18-2007, 12:58 AM
The Pirates GM is much smarter than WK and would not make a dumb move. An innings eater type pitcher would be good for depth ONLY if it's a 1 year contract. They shouldn't make any trades that gives up the top prospects. Colon, Livan, Leiber maybe would all be good on a 1 Year deal even if they overpay. Prior would be worth a 2 year only because when he pitches, he is very very good.

AmarilloRed
12-18-2007, 01:03 AM
I really think Livan Hernandez is the best free agent pitcher out there for the money. He had 19 quality starts last year, and is someone who will give you 200 innings. Iexpect we could get him for 1-2 years at 7 million a year. I would much rather make a move like that than trade one(or more) of the Big 4 to land a starting pitcher.

*BaseClogger*
12-18-2007, 01:04 AM
The Pirates GM is much smarter than WK and would not make a dumb move. An innings eater type pitcher would be good for depth ONLY if it's a 1 year contract. They shouldn't make any trades that gives up the top prospects. Colon, Livan, Leiber maybe would all be good on a 1 Year deal even if they overpay. Prior would be worth a 2 year only because when he pitches, he is very very good.

Q and A with Pirates GM Neal Huntington:

"The Pirates upper management has widely ignored OBP (on base percentage) in the past. How important will OBP be in player evaluation under your leadership?
-- Eric S., Pennsboro, W.Va
We are going to utilize several objective measures of player performance to evaluate and develop players. We'll rely on the more traditional objective evaluations: OPS (on base percentage plus slugging percentage) , WHIP (walks and hits per inning pitched), Runs Created, ERC (Component ERA), GB/FB (ground ball to fly ball ratio), K/9 (strikeouts per nine innings), K/BB (strikeouts to walks ratio), BB%, etc., but we'll also look to rely on some of the more recent variations: VORP (value over replacement player), Relative Performance, EqAve (equivalent average), EqOBP (equivalent on base percentage), EqSLG (equivalent slugging percentage), BIP% (balls put into play percentage), wOBA (weighted on base average), Range Factor, PMR (probabilistic model of range) and Zone Rating."

BLEEDS
12-18-2007, 02:44 AM
I would be willing to bet that Cueto pitches exactly 0 innings in the Major League next year, outside of a SMALL CHANCE of a September call-up when the Reds are out of it - and THAT is a stretch because, like Jay Bruce circa 2007, it would only have served ONE purpose, to eat up his arbitration eligibility earlier; akin to taking a Red-Shirt away from a freshman to play the last game of a College Football season.

Cueto, by all reports, is NOT going to be rushed like the Reds did with Homer. Homer has proven, over MANY AAA games, that he had nothing to prove in the minors. Not so with Cueto, yet. Cueto will play every 5th day in AAA, something he can't be guaranteed with the Reds.

IMO, Harang/Arroyo/Belisle are the locks, Homer - or the guy he's traded for - makes it 4, and IFF we trade for an Ace, we are going to get a OLD VETERAN FA 1-2 year guy to come in and eat innings at #4, moving Belisle to 5 spot, where he can win more games than he loses.

IF we don't trade for that Ace, we go with a mid-level FA, who would be overmatched as a #3, and hope Homer/Belisle pitches themselves to a #3 during the year. Not a great option, but the only realistic scenario given the HORRID drop-off from the likes of the guys we would have to give up Homer/Cueto and change for...

2009 - Cueto enters the rotation, Jay Bruce replaces KGJ, and decisions on Dunn has to be made, and the FA market for pitchers is 1,000X better than 2007.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Hondo
12-18-2007, 03:12 AM
Let me say this... Johan Santana is available in Trade once a Generation...

He is worth Bailey and 4 other Prospects not named Jay Bruce...

Trade for him and sign Lieber and Prior to fill out the rest of the rotation... Let Cueto come when he is ready...

Santana
Harang
Arroyo
Leiber
Prior

I can live with that...

Thanks

fadetoblack2880
12-18-2007, 08:01 AM
Let me say this... Johan Santana is available in Trade once a Generation...

He is worth Bailey and 4 other Prospects not named Jay Bruce...

Trade for him and sign Lieber and Prior to fill out the rest of the rotation... Let Cueto come when he is ready...

Santana
Harang
Arroyo
Leiber
Prior

I can live with that...

Thanks

That would be a pretty decent rotation, but it won't happen.

I(heart)Freel
12-18-2007, 10:48 AM
Let me say this... Johan Santana is available in Trade once a Generation...

He is worth Bailey and 4 other Prospects not named Jay Bruce...

Trade for him and sign Lieber and Prior to fill out the rest of the rotation... Let Cueto come when he is ready...

Santana
Harang
Arroyo
Leiber
Prior

I can live with that...

Thanks

And then in 2009, when Santana laughs at a long term deal to stay with the Reds, we go back to losing for 7 straight seasons.

No thanks.

bigredbunter
12-18-2007, 11:50 AM
After sigining Baker and Cordero, not aquiring a quality arm would be like putting hooptie wheels on your 89 Ford Tempo.

Caveman Techie
12-18-2007, 11:53 AM
IF Santana would sign an extension then I would say go for it, but I don't see that happening. I am more than happy to not give up the farm for a one year rental.

Terps
12-18-2007, 12:21 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/cubs-interest-1.html

Bedard and Zambrano would be lethal in the playoffs. I don't see how they could get him without including Hill though, which in some ways defeats the purpose.

Bip Roberts
12-18-2007, 12:23 PM
That would be a pretty decent rotation, but it won't happen.

If healthy and in their prime maybe

ChatterRed
12-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Let me say this... Johan Santana is available in Trade once a Generation...

He is worth Bailey and 4 other Prospects not named Jay Bruce...

Trade for him and sign Lieber and Prior to fill out the rest of the rotation... Let Cueto come when he is ready...

Santana
Harang
Arroyo
Leiber
Prior

I can live with that...

Thanks


.......AND LET HIM WALK AFTER ONE SEASON AND THROWN AWAY OUR BEST PROSPECTS? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KDDING ME.....SAY YOU ARE?

THE REDS HAVE ZERO CHANCE OF SIGNING SANTANA LONG TERM. ZERO.

TheBigLebowski
12-18-2007, 01:08 PM
My biggest fear is that we deal a big package to BAL for EB, something like Bailey/Votto/Wood/Valaika/etc, land EB for 2 years and we still end up as a mediocre club.

Sure, we could move him at the trade deadline for some prospects to replace the guys we lost but we'd be getting quarters on the dollar in terms of talent.

Face it - Bedard does not guarantee us a winning season this year. Far from it. I think we'd be best suited to keeping our studs, picking up a Hendrickson/Blanton/Hernandez and letting our young guys pitch.

BLEEDS
12-18-2007, 01:08 PM
anybody understand what the term "72 hour window" means.

Do any of you SERIOUSLY think we would trade 3 or 4 of our prospects for Johan Santana and NOT sign him to an LTC as part of the trade?!?!?!

Gimme a break, is recess over yet?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I(heart)Freel
12-18-2007, 01:30 PM
anybody understand what the term "72 hour window" means.

Do any of you SERIOUSLY think we would trade 3 or 4 of our prospects for Johan Santana and NOT sign him to an LTC as part of the trade?!?!?!

Gimme a break, is recess over yet?

PEACE

-BLEEDS



I don't know... what grade are you in?

More appropriate question might be: what planet are you on, to think that Santana - even with a 72 hour window - would ever choose to sign long term in Cincinnati and thereby not start a huge bidding war for his services next winter?

AmarilloRed
12-18-2007, 01:49 PM
My biggest fear is that we deal a big package to BAL for EB, something like Bailey/Votto/Wood/Valaika/etc, land EB for 2 years and we still end up as a mediocre club.

Sure, we could move him at the trade deadline for some prospects to replace the guys we lost but we'd be getting quarters on the dollar in terms of talent.

Face it - Bedard does not guarantee us a winning season this year. Far from it. I think we'd be best suited to keeping our studs, picking up a Hendrickson/Blanton/Hernandez and letting our young guys pitch.

Exactly what I have been saying all along. We have Harang and Arroyo as our #1 and 2, Belisle and Bailey as our 4 and 5, all we need is to pick up a #3. I realize that Arroyo is probably a #3, but he will suffice as a 2 until we get Bailey or Cueto to develop. There are plenty of #3 available in free agency, and we should pick up one.