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Brian
12-21-2007, 10:53 AM
Rangers: Texas continues to troll for a center fielder, a search that currently winds from free agent Mike Cameron through Los Angeles and Cincinnati. The Rangers apparently like the outfielder the Dodgers are trying to move -- Juan Pierre -- but only if he brings along a significant portion of the $26.5 million remaining on his contract. Discussions with the Reds involve Josh Hamilton, but include a price (Edinson Volquez) the Rangers may not want to meet.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071220&content_id=2334332&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

I'm not sure if I'd have a problem with that trade, even though Volquez is a little older at 27.

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 10:53 AM
blech

hippie07
12-21-2007, 11:01 AM
what?! I hope that's not true... Edison Volquez is a biq ?????? I hope we only trade Hamilton for a "for sure" pitching improvement.

I'd give them Hopper for Volquez.... Hopper & Stubbs, etc... maybe... not Hammy!

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 11:25 AM
You'd have to pry Norris Hopper from my cold, dead hands.

Brian
12-21-2007, 11:51 AM
Thing is though, it's a little tough to tell what Hamilton is since he's still terribly raw. Plays hard though, gotta love that about the guy.

thatcoolguy_22
12-21-2007, 12:16 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071220&content_id=2334332&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

I'm not sure if I'd have a problem with that trade, even though Volquez is a little older at 27.

volquez is 23


Year Team Lg Age Org Level W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP GB%
2003 Az Rangers Ariz 19 Tex Rk 2 1 4.00 10 4 0 0 1 1 27.0 24 14 12 1 11 28 4 8.00 0.33 3.67 9.33 1.30 --
2004 Clinton Midw 20 Tex A 4 4 4.21 21 15 0 0 3 3 87.2 82 49 41 8 27 74 4 8.42 0.82 2.77 7.60 1.24 --
Stockton Calif 20 Tex A+ 4 1 2.95 8 8 0 0 0 0 39.2 31 16 13 6 14 34 2 7.03 1.36 3.18 7.71 1.13 --
2005 Az Rangers Ariz 21 Tex Rk 0 0 0.00 1 1 0 0 0 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 9.00 0.00 0.00 9.00 1.00 --
Bkrsfld Calif 21 Tex A+ 5 4 4.18 11 11 1 0 0 66.2 64 34 31 9 12 77 3 0 8.64 1.21 1.62 10.39 1.14 --
Frisco Tex 21 Tex AA 1 5 4.14 10 10 1 1 0 58.2 58 29 27 6 17 49 1 0 8.90 0.92 2.61 7.52 1.28 --
Texas AL 21 Tex MLB log 0 4 14.21 6 3 0 0 0 0 12.2 25 22 20 3 10 11 0 0 17.76 2.13 7.11 7.82 2.76 31%
2006 Oklahoma PCL 22 Tex AAA 6 6 3.21 21 21 0 0 0 0 120.2 86 51 43 9 72 130 3 0 6.41 0.67 5.37 9.70 1.31 --
Texas AL 22 Tex MLB log 1 6 7.29 8 8 0 0 0 0 33.1 52 28 27 7 17 15 0 0 14.04 1.89 4.59 4.05 2.07 40%
2007 Bkrsfld Calif 23 Tex A+ 0 4 7.13 7 7 0 0 0 0 35.1 27 28 28 4 20 38 5 0 6.88 1.02 5.09 9.68 1.33 --
Frisco Tex 23 Tex AA 8 1 3.55 11 11 0 0 0 0 58.1 46 23 23 9 19 62 1 0 7.10 1.39 2.93 9.57 1.11 --
Okla City PCL 23 Tex AAA 6 1 1.41 8 8 0 0 0 0 51.0 25 8 8 0 21 66 3 0 4.41 0.00 3.71 11.65 0.90 --
Texas AL 23 Tex MLB 2 1 4.50 6 6 0 0 0 0 34.0 34 18 17 4 15 29 0 0 9.00 1.06 3.97 7.68 1.44 --
Major League Totals - 3 Season(s) 3 11 7.20 20 17 0 0 0 0 80.0 111 68 64 14 42 55 0 0 12.49 1.58 4.73 6.19 1.91 37%
Minor League Totals - 5 Season(s) 36 27 3.72 108 96 2 1 4 547.0 445 252 226 52 213 560 27 7.32 0.86 3.50 9.21 1.20

here are his major/minor league numbers.

Notice the improvement as he advances through the minors. Small sample size in AAA but he was dominant and deserving of his call to Texas with his 3 to 1 K to BB ratio, 0.90 Whip and 11.65 K/9. He has very good periphs but is still working out control issues (with a near 4 BB/9 in AAA and in the majors). Also in AAA he started 8 games and had 8 COMPLETE GAMES


Scouting report


Scouting Report
Assets
Shocks hitters with a change-up that cuts 20 mph off his mid-90s fastball. Works hard.
Flaws
His curveball needs a lot of work and he seriously needs to refine his command.
Career potential
Has No. 2-starter potential.


according to http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Edinson_Volquez/

Baseball America says he is a Pedro Martinez clone and projects as a #2 type pitcher.







I still need to do some more research before I offer my full opinion but, I do like the fact that WK has gotten word out that there are other pitchers besides Bedard that he is looking at...


Hope this helps

hippie07
12-21-2007, 05:06 PM
There is no doubt that I'd like to have Volquez... He would be a great asset in AAA and someone to add to Bailey and Cueto as pitching prospects w/ excellent potential, but I don't think trading our #1 trade chip for another pitching prospect who WONT fix the pitching problem that we have going into 08 is the best idea.

If this move is paired w/ a 1yr. signing of Livan or Colon... then I don't guess it's that bad of a move, but it would pretty much just be dumping Hamilton... I feel that this is a mistake because I love the guy, but w/ the pampering he required in 07... supposedly it led to bad team chemisty (at least BP was vocal about it) and I suppose he's something of an injury/relapse risk... If I was a gambling woman - I'd bet on Hamilton, but it seems to me that the Reds aren't planning on it.. and I look for him to be traded before the season starts.

That being said... I wish we could package him w/ others and get back more of a sure thing - I've kinda given up on Bedard, but Snell, Shield, Cain... If those guys are available.. sign me up... if they're not though... I guess I can live w/ a Volquez for Hamilton trade as long as its paired w/ a signing that would give us an "innings eater" that we need in 08 - of which Volquez, Bailey, Cueto (maybe even Belisle) won't be because of their young, fragile, and valuable arms.

An 08 rotation of:
Harang
Arroyo
Livan/Colon
Belisle
Bailey/Volquez/Cueto

and in 09- we'll know more of what Belisle, Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez can do - if they're all or at least 3 of them are studs - then we'll have our rotation, but if not .. then we swoop in and land Derek Lowe in the FA market as our #2/3.

Anyway, in conclusion.... my guess is Hamilton is gone.... I hope if that's the case that WK gets as much as he can for him, at least.

Grande Donkey
12-21-2007, 05:20 PM
http://www.newbergreport.com/article.asp

Grande Donkey
12-21-2007, 05:27 PM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/122207dnsporanglede.3b085d1a.html

Dont know if its true or not so take it FWIW.

RedsIn07
12-21-2007, 05:29 PM
It's on mlb.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071221&content_id=2335816&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Grande Donkey
12-21-2007, 05:32 PM
Could this have been to get someone to put in the Bedard deal?

HokieRed
12-21-2007, 05:33 PM
Sounds like it's done. Really strange trade after the potential Hamilton showed. Only good thing I can think about it is that maybe it means the Bedard nonsense is over.

gobucks106
12-21-2007, 05:42 PM
Just heard on WLW, Seg says 6:30 press conference to announce Hamilton to the Rangers.

Grande Donkey
12-21-2007, 05:42 PM
What kind of stuff does Herrera have?

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 05:42 PM
Darnit darnit darnit darnit!

GoReds33
12-21-2007, 05:43 PM
I could think of a bunch of words to describe my feelings, but I do have intrest to still be a member of this board.

BLEEDS
12-21-2007, 05:44 PM
Now sign Dunn to an LTC, and tell the Orioles to shove it!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

SoTxRedsFan
12-21-2007, 05:54 PM
ehhhhhh. I was hoping Hamilton would reach his potential in Red's uniform.

Nasty_Boy
12-21-2007, 05:59 PM
I'm fine with this move. With the amount of rumors that Hamilton was involved in this offseason, the Reds must have serious questions about his future. I have seen Herrera list at the Rangers #4 prospect for the upcoming season. Look at his stats, he is a very tough guy to hit and his K/IP and H/IP is very very impressive. Voliquez has a + fastball and a +change, he is said to need work with his breaking ball but he has huge upside. This also could preceed a move for Bedard. Who knows?

dthomas24
12-21-2007, 06:00 PM
Hate to see Hamilton go!!!!!! But that's baseball. At least we are adressing our needs with pitching. Old Leather Pants would've traded Bailey for more "5-tool outfielders!" I like the trade, but will miss seeing Hamilton make the game look easy.

GoReds33
12-21-2007, 06:00 PM
After I did some reading on the guys we got, this isn't a terrible trade. Now we have a place for Bruce. We still have a good young core. And now, we can have the best rotation in baseball by 2009. Imagine this.

SP. Aaron Harang
SP. Homer Bailey
SP. Johnny Cueto
SP. Edinson Volquez
SP. Bronson Arroyo

There is tons of potential there.

I(heart)Freel
12-21-2007, 06:01 PM
Now sign Dunn to an LTC, and tell the Orioles to shove it!

PEACE

-BLEEDS


Yes... that is definitely the next course of action. Sign Dunn. He has his flaws but we need some stability in the OF, especially in 2009 and beyond, to go along with the young studs in the infield.

I hate losing Josh, but this is the return I like. Cheap for 3 years, in our control for 6 years, fairly young (will hit peak when making league min) and with huge upside.

Caveman Techie
12-21-2007, 06:04 PM
As much as I loved to watch Josh Hamilton play this is a great move by WK. A++ move, and hopefully this ends any of the Bedard for "ALL YOUR TOP PROSPECTS" talk from the Orioles.

TC81190
12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
I know we need pitching...but I'm gonna miss Hammy. :(

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 06:09 PM
Oh well it was bound to happen. Good luck to hamilton

OSUGoBucksOSU
12-21-2007, 06:09 PM
I don't mind this one bit. GO REDS!!!
--------
Reds send outfielder to Rangers for Volquez, minor leaguer
Associated Press

ARLINGTON, Texas -- The Cincinnati Reds agreed Friday to trade outfielder Josh Hamilton to the Texas Rangers for pitcher Edinson Volquez and a minor league pitcher.

The trade was to be announced later Friday, according to a team official familiar with the deal who spoke on condition of anonymity because the announcement had not yet been made.

The 26-year-old Hamilton batted .292 this year in his first major league season with 19 homers and 47 RBIs in 298 at-bats. His season was interrupted by an inflamed digestive track and a sprained wrist, but he still received 151,000 write-in votes for the All-Star Game, the top total in the NL.

Taken by Tampa Bay with the first pick of the 1999 amateur draft, Hamilton didn't make it above Double-A with the Devil Rays, his career slowed by alcohol and drug addiction.

Cincinnati had acquired Hamilton in the 2006 winter meeting draft.

Volquez, a 24-year-old right-hander, was 2-1 with a 4.50 ERA in six starts for the Rangers last season.

OSUGoBucksOSU
12-21-2007, 06:10 PM
Do Not Rush Him Though

OUReds
12-21-2007, 06:10 PM
I'll echo that I hate to see Hamilton go, but Volquez has absolutely eye popping numbers and stuff.

Flipping a guy that you got off the scrap heap last year for a pitcher with this much upside is excellent work in my book.

OSUGoBucksOSU
12-21-2007, 06:11 PM
Here is an idea...
Is Volquez part of a trade for Bedard? Just a thought

Blue
12-21-2007, 06:14 PM
hmm... who is this minor leaguer going to be?

jimbo
12-21-2007, 06:16 PM
Could this have been to get someone to put in the Bedard deal?

That was the first thing I thought when I first heard about the trade. I just watched a few videos of him though, you can find them at his profile page on the Rangers website, and after watching them I'm starting to think that the Reds should tell the Os they are no longer interested and just keep the youngins. Volquez has a 95-97 mph fastball and his changeup is in the lower 80's. That is pretty nasty stuff. I think he goes right into the rotation. I'd like to get Bedard, but it's suddenly not as necessary.

This team is beginning to shape up nice for this season, but 09 looks very bright. Nicely done WK.

schmidty622
12-21-2007, 06:16 PM
It’s an even move now but will be very good if Volquez lives up to his potential. Think about if the Reds somehow strike gold and Bailey, Volquez or Cueto all turn out to be good to solid major league pitchers. Of course it probably won't happen but its neat to think about.

HokieRed
12-21-2007, 06:17 PM
I like it a lot, though I hate to see Hamilton go. You've now got 7 guys to get a rotation from in the next several years--Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Belisle, Cueto, Maloney, Volquez. I could easily see this team dealing Arroyo for important parts in another year. Arroyo will, in fact, have to compete to stay in this rotation. I could see him being the odd man out actually by the end of this season. What would he bring in July?

Blue
12-21-2007, 06:17 PM
Danny Herrera...

I'm not real high on this move right now.

757690
12-21-2007, 06:18 PM
hmm... who is this minor leaguer going to be?

Danny Ray Herrera

A short, 5"7' lefty who had nice numbers in AA last year. A very low round draft pick, so don't expect much, but good lefty relievers are always worth something.


http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Danny-Ra-Herrera.shtml

jimbo
12-21-2007, 06:19 PM
I'm not real high on this move right now.

Check out the videos of Volquez on this page. They might quickly change your mind.

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=450172

Bigredfan#1
12-21-2007, 06:21 PM
One of those deals where it could really backfire but also be good for both teams. Hamilton could become a super star and yet Volquez could become a #2, regardless he helps the Reds staff. The Reds could have an awesome staff in a few years, let Bailey and Cueto and Voquez mature and look out!


I am almost always sad to see a Red go. Even when we traded Lee May for Joe Morgan I hated to see May and Helms go but what a trade that was for us.

GO REDS

BucksandReds
12-21-2007, 06:21 PM
Good trade. Trade strength for weakness. I like this move by Krivsky. He got help and didn't leverage the farm. Hamilton may be an All Star but at the same time if he can't stay healthy then Hamilton has reached his highest trade value.

captainmorgan07
12-21-2007, 06:23 PM
very very good move for wayne here.Address's our huge need in pitching. i like others hate to see hamilton go. He has mass potential and i wish the kid all the luck. I hope he stays healthy and i hope volquez does us very well.

Nasty_Boy
12-21-2007, 06:24 PM
In last year's Baseball America Handbook, a scout stated when drafting Herrera that could get Pujols out right now. I thought that was pretty cool.

But anyways, Herrera has some nasty stuff judging by his numbers and scouts takes on him. He has more K's than IP and he gives up less hits than IP. I like the looks of this deal.

Blue
12-21-2007, 06:31 PM
Check out the videos of Volquez on this page. They might quickly change your mind.

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=450172

I know that Volquez is a good arm. Maybe an excellent one. But he is entirely unproven as a MLB pitcher. (That fastball-changeup combination is JUST SICK!)

Hamilton isn't completely proven, but he really excelled in 300 ABs after missing four years. I think he can put up a 1.000 OPS while in his first six years.

I tend to look on the bright side of things, so I'm sure I'll come around. I just thought we'd be able to get more than one very good minor leaguer for him. Maybe I'm just expecting a better return on our players than I'm willing to give up for other teams'.

Prf15
12-21-2007, 06:31 PM
This deal looks very very very nice. I love Josh Hamilton and looks to becoming a stud but we get back a potential ace or #2 of a staff. We also acquire a young reliever who strikes guys out and will move along with Viola and Pelland to Cincy it looks like.

How does a staff of this look like for the next 5 years:
Aaron Harang
Homer Bailey
Johnny Cueto
Edinson Volquez
Bronson Arroyo

I hope Wayne decides to hold onto these young guys and realize he is in a small market. I would love to get Bedard but he will be way to expensive.

Oxilon
12-21-2007, 06:32 PM
There's two ways of looking at this deal.
1) The Reds have soley made this move to add yet another potentially dominating arm to the rotation for the next several years at a very affordable price, or
2) By acquiring Volquez, this makes Bailey and Cueto expendible for future acquistions (albeit Bedard or whoever).

But also, lets not overlook that this puts to rest any rumors that Bruce is going to be included in any deal. Looks like the outfield of Dunn-Bruce-Griffey is all but set in stone.

And here's too the Reds flipping Bailey, Votto, Stubbs, and Wood for Bedard.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 06:33 PM
Kid throws some sick heat.

Casey
12-21-2007, 06:34 PM
I hate to see Hamilton go, but at least the Reds got some value for him and they definitely need the pitching. Nice move.

jimbo
12-21-2007, 06:36 PM
I know that Volquez is a good arm. Maybe an excellent one. But he is entirely unproven as a MLB pitcher. (That fastball-changeup combination is JUST SICK!)

Hamilton isn't completely proven, but he really excelled in 300 ABs after missing four years. I think he can put up a 1.000 OPS while in his first six years.

I tend to look on the bright side of things, so I'm sure I'll come around. I just thought we'd be able to get more than one very good minor leaguer for him. Maybe I'm just expecting a better return on our players than I'm willing to give up for other teams'.

I hear you Blue and understand where you're coming from. I loved Hamilton as much as anyone did, but we did get two quality young arms. And finding outfielders is much easier than finding a 24 year-old arm that throws a 97 mph fastball and an 80 mph changeup.

I really wanted to watch Hamilton mature as a Red and I wish him the best. I hope he becomes an MVP as a Ranger. I just think this trade is one of Wayne's best so far, considering that they practically gave up nothing to get Hamilton in the first place.

kbrake
12-21-2007, 06:36 PM
Great move wayne.

Blue
12-21-2007, 06:38 PM
There's two ways of looking at this deal.
1) The Reds have soley made this move to add yet another potentially dominating arm to the rotation for the next several years at a very affordable price, or
2) By acquiring Volquez, this makes Bailey and Cueto expendible for future acquistions (albeit Bedard or whoever).

But also, lets not overlook that this puts to rest any rumors that Bruce is going to be included in any deal. Looks like the outfield of Dunn-Bruce-Griffey is all but set in stone.

And here's too the Reds flipping Bailey, Votto, Stubbs, and Wood for Bedard.

That doesn't make any sense. That would be like trading Bailey, Hamilton, Votto, Stubbs, and Wood for Bedard + a AA reliever.

jmac
12-21-2007, 06:39 PM
Great deal.
I like Josh but I had serious questions about his durability. I wish him the best but this other kid is a keeper it appears.

jimbo
12-21-2007, 06:52 PM
Wow, anyone listening to some of these callers on WLW? I have to turn it off, I feel sorry for Seg.

Oxilon
12-21-2007, 06:52 PM
That doesn't make any sense. That would be like trading Bailey, Hamilton, Votto, Stubbs, and Wood for Bedard + a AA reliever.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. By acquiring Volquez, we have in sense, added another arm to our organization that's in the same mold as Bailey and Cueto, with the exception that Volquez maybe to a little lesser degree. But nonetheless, instead of having only 2 highly regarding pitching prospects to throw around in deals, we have 3 now. So, in essence, this move can make Bailey or Cueto more expendible, since we can trade one of the two, and still have a promising pitching prospect to take their place in the rotation.

As for my proposed deal...
Hamilton for Volquez benfits the Reds much more than Hamilton for AA reliever. Not to mention, Radhames Liz, who I think is the best pitching prospect the O's have to offer, doesn't come close to Volquez's potential.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 06:55 PM
Wow, anyone listening to some of these callers on WLW? I have to turn it off, I feel sorry for Seg.

yea this guy that just called in to say WAYNE HAS NO CLUE WHAT HES DOING, but forgets that wayne was the one that traded for hamilton in the 1st place :bowrofl:

Reds could be looking at a really good rotation in 09 if everything pans out.

Trace's Daddy
12-21-2007, 07:02 PM
Very good move. Probably not going after Bedard now???

jimbo
12-21-2007, 07:03 PM
yea this guy that just called in to say WAYNE HAS NO CLUE WHAT HES DOING, but forgets that wayne was the one that traded for hamilton in the 1st place :bowrofl:


Yeah, and he also said that EE and Gonzo can't field. :bang:

jmac
12-21-2007, 07:04 PM
Wow, anyone listening to some of these callers on WLW? I have to turn it off, I feel sorry for Seg.
I can only imagine what they are saying and that is part of the reason I seldom listen to WLW.
I do tune in occasionally for sports updates on the news but that is it.

Oxilon
12-21-2007, 07:08 PM
Very good move. Probably not going after Bedard now???

Not necessarily. But given Wayne's track record of trades, I'm willing to bet the Volquez acquistion won't lead to any future trades.

Oxilon
12-21-2007, 07:10 PM
yea this guy that just called in to say WAYNE HAS NO CLUE WHAT HES DOING, but forgets that wayne was the one that traded for hamilton in the 1st place :bowrofl:

Reds could be looking at a really good rotation in 09 if everything pans out.

It's kind of funny when you look at this trade over the long haul. Wayne, in essence, traded for a potential top of the rotation pitcher for a Rule V pick. Looking at it that way, it's kind of rediculous that people are criticizing him for it.

jmac
12-21-2007, 07:16 PM
Not necessarily. But given Wayne's track record of trades, I'm willing to bet the Volquez acquistion won't lead to any future trades.

So this kid will start in Louisville ?
If so, Wayne will still have to do something to improve starters in 08. Of course it doesnt have to be via trades but if not, I am not looking for anything major in the FA bunch.

redsfanmia
12-21-2007, 07:18 PM
Maybe its just me but I am begginning to get excited about the 08 season. Great move Wayne!!

Terps
12-21-2007, 07:19 PM
I have no idea how this will affect Bedard talks; both Rangers and Reds were said to be interested. But man I gotta say, I thought the Reds could have gotten more for Hamilton. Volquez has talent, but he's a big question mark. I would have expected the Reds to get Hurley at least.

eastkyred
12-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I just thought we'd be able to get more than one very good minor leaguer for him. Maybe I'm just expecting a better return on our players than I'm willing to give up for other teams'.

This is a good trade for the Reds. They got one good minor leaguer, and a major league ready top prospect out of a guy with 300 major league at bats. Don't misunderstand, Hamilton was my favorite player on the team last year and after reading his ESPN the magazine article (I think it was ESPN) and learning about his faith and belief in Jesus Christ, I was even more excited about rooting for him for years to come. But you have to trade excess for need. Good job k, good luck josh.

Blue
12-21-2007, 07:24 PM
I have no idea how this will affect Bedard talks; both Rangers and Reds were said to be interested. But man I gotta say, I thought the Reds could have gotten more for Hamilton. Volquez has talent, but he's a big question mark. I would have expected the Reds to get Hurley at least.

I expected more, too. However, Volquez is WAY ahead of Hurley as a prospect, judging by this season.

Blue
12-21-2007, 07:25 PM
This is a good trade for the Reds. They got one good minor leaguer, and a major league ready top prospect out of a guy with 300 major league at bats. Don't misunderstand, Hamilton was my favorite player on the team last year and after reading his ESPN the magazine article (I think it was ESPN) and learning about his faith and belief in Jesus Christ, I was even more excited about rooting for him for years to come. But you have to trade excess for need. Good job k, good luck josh.

I think the excess is a mirage. You've got Griffey and Dunn who could be FAs at the end of the season.

jmac
12-21-2007, 07:34 PM
But man I gotta say, I thought the Reds could have gotten more for Hamilton. Volquez has talent, but he's a big question mark
Josh has his questions as well. He had a durability problem in his beginning with TB and of course some problems last year.
We all hope the best for Josh but what if he hit 240 in the coming season and played 105 games.
His stock would not brought back a youngster of this potential.
Obviously the opposite is true as well but for a team that needs pitching, this was an excellent deal IMO.

BucksandReds
12-21-2007, 07:37 PM
I think the excess is a mirage. You've got Griffey and Dunn who could be FAs at the end of the season.

Dunn will get an extension. Bruce will be a starter by 09 at the latest. Hamilton is a bigger ? than Bruce imho. V good trade. Volquez has at least as good a chance of being great as Hamilton does. Hamilton didn't just have 1 freak injury last year. He had several nagging ones. That is a bad sign about a players health. I bet that Hamilton has a similar season to last years in 08 and we are better off getting a hurler that has a chance to be very good.

redsfanmia
12-21-2007, 07:42 PM
I think the excess is a mirage. You've got Griffey and Dunn who could be FAs at the end of the season.

Outfielders are a dime a dozen and can be picked up every season,unlike 24 year old fireballers.

Terps
12-21-2007, 07:43 PM
Josh has his questions as well. He had a durability problem in his beginning with TB and of course some problems last year.
We all hope the best for Josh but what if he hit 240 in the coming season and played 105 games.
His stock would not brought back a youngster of this potential.
Obviously the opposite is true as well but for a team that needs pitching, this was an excellent deal IMO.

I hear ya. I'm just giving you my impression as an unbiased outsider.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 07:43 PM
I like the trade and give it an A-.

Wayne has done an excellent job. While all of us Redszoners complained that he would get desperate and include Bruce in a trade for Bedard, he pulled the same move on the Rangers. It was reported a little while ago that the Rangers were unwilling to give up Volquez for Hamilton, and Krivsky waited them out and got Volquez PLUS another prospect for Hammy! Great job Wayne!

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 07:45 PM
I deal an OF with upside for a SP with upside 30 hours a day/8 days a week...

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 07:53 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like this deal. I simply hated losing Hammy, which led to my initial reaction.

Consider:

By all appearances, we've improved our rotation (perhaps measurably so, if Volquez can harness his talent) without moving any of the Big Four.

Because we've now added a starter, the chances of us mortgaging our farm system for 2 years of Bedard now seem remote.

It does stink to lose Hammy but we dealt from a position of strength. We've got outfielders to beat the band. It's highly likely we see Jay Bruce in CF on Opening Day '08.

We'll likely see Cueto and Homer battle for the final rotation spot with the loser improving our horrific bullpen.

I can see us winning some games in '08 but I really think we'll start to see dividends in 09.

gedred69
12-21-2007, 08:03 PM
I like the trade and give it an A-.

Wayne has done an excellent job. While all of us Redszoners complained that he would get desperate and include Bruce in a trade for Bedard, he pulled the same move on the Rangers. It was reported a little while ago that the Rangers were unwilling to give up Volquez for Hamilton, and Krivsky waited them out and got Volquez PLUS another prospect for Hammy! Great job Wayne!

I totally agree. I have been hoping WK would be as stoic at the poker table of trades, as he is with us fans, and would hold out for a better deal than what any other GM said was his final offer.
Somebody else blinked, and WK made would could be an excellent deal. Watch the videos of Volquez. He can throw a ball that rolls off the table, which is perfect for GABP.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:06 PM
I totally agree. I have been hoping WK would be as stoic at the poker table of trades, as he is with us fans, and would hold out for a better deal than what any other GM said was his final offer.
Somebody else blinked, and WK made would could be an excellent deal. Watch the videos of Volquez. He can throw a ball that rolls off the table, which is perfect for GABP.

I'm glad you agree with me, but Volquez is primarily a fly-ball pitcher: http://firstinning.com/players/Edinson-Volquez-a/

757690
12-21-2007, 08:07 PM
This trade makes the most sense if WK gets at least one more veteran arm to compete for a spot in the rotation. Still, you have to think that at least one of Volquez, Bailey or Cueto will be productive this year, and one will be a lights out #1 stopper in the future.

Hamilton will probably be an All-Star, or possibly even a MVP candidate, and I hope he does, for his sake. He's a real classy guy who deserves the best.
But Volquez could be the next Pedro, but even if he doesn't get his act together as a starter, he has the stuff to be a lights out closer, ala Gange (but without the steroids).
And Herrera could be a nice middle reliever or lefty specialist.

Probably the best option out there for WK.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:09 PM
Maybe corderlol can help this kid out some if he struggles

UPRedsFan
12-21-2007, 08:09 PM
Bottom line is we were 2nd to last in runs allowed last year.

With Cordero and Volquez plus a healthy Bill Bray, and full season of Burton, we just made a big leap in that department. And losing Hamilton does not hurt this offense. With Votto and Bruce waiting in the wings the offense just might be improved this year.

We are now better than .500 and will give the Cubs a run for the Central. If Bailey or Cueto "arrive", the Central is ours.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:13 PM
These people calling into 700wlw are so nuts :bowrofl:

Guy just called in and said Twins are a horrible judge of talent and that the reds are better off drafting nothing but hitters and using free agency for signing pitchers because thats how oakland does it!


.... is there another oakland I dont know about?

OldRed1966
12-21-2007, 08:20 PM
I love the deal. I can remember in the late 80's when a lot of Reds fans were upset when Dave Parker was traded to the A's for another young pitcher with a great arm. I think Rijo worked out pretty well for the Reds.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:24 PM
These people calling into 700wlw are so nuts :bowrofl:

Guy just called in and said Twins are a horrible judge of talent and that the reds are better off drafting nothing but hitters and using free agency for signing pitchers because thats how oakland does it!


.... is there another oakland I dont know about?

that is the exact opposite of sanity and reality! :laugh:

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:27 PM
that is the exact opposite of sanity and reality! :laugh:

Guy was going crazy man :bowrofl:

jimbo
12-21-2007, 08:28 PM
These people calling into 700wlw are so nuts :bowrofl:

Guy just called in and said Twins are a horrible judge of talent and that the reds are better off drafting nothing but hitters and using free agency for signing pitchers because thats how oakland does it!


.... is there another oakland I dont know about?

LOL, I don't know why I'm torturing myself by still listening this stuff. It's definitely cheap entertainment if you don't take it too seriously. Some of these guys though makes me want to stick a corkscrew in my eye.

Beer does make it funnier though. :all_cohol

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:34 PM
LOL, I don't know why I'm torturing myself by still listening this stuff. It's definitely cheap entertainment if you don't take it too seriously. Some of these guys though makes me want to stick a corkscrew in my eye.

Beer does make it funnier though. :all_cohol

Yea i was cracking up when the guy said WHAT TEAM GAVE UP DAVID ORTIZ FOR NOTHING! ITS THE TWINS THEY ARE A TERRIBLE JUDGE OF TALENT AND ALL THIER PLAYERS COME FROM OTHER TEAMS!

guy must have been high or drunk on something

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:40 PM
Yea i was cracking up when the guy said WHAT TEAM GAVE UP DAVID ORTIZ FOR NOTHING! ITS THE TWINS THEY ARE A TERRIBLE JUDGE OF TALENT AND ALL THIER PLAYERS COME FROM OTHER TEAMS!

guy must have been high or drunk on something

Doesn't it amaze you the amount of people that call themselves knowledgable baseball fans but know nothing? What is OPS? :)

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:42 PM
These people think that we just traded Jesus for a turd from Satan

gedred69
12-21-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm glad you agree with me, but Volquez is primarily a fly-ball pitcher: http://firstinning.com/players/Edinson-Volquez-a/

Well then, so much for highlight reels! We don't need another Milton. With Volquez purportedly throwing a 95+ FB I hope the flyballs are of the high vertical/low horizontal variety.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:44 PM
I like this deal just because we have 3 young pitchers that could turn into pretty great pitchers, and id rather have a surplus of pitching than the surplus of OF every day of the week.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 08:44 PM
Well then, so much for highlight reels! We don't need another Milton. With Volquez purportedly throwing a 95+ FB I hope the flyballs are of the high vertical/low horizontal variety.
Im thinking the change up can keep some guys honest. Also he is coming from Texas which is only slightly less a hitters park

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:47 PM
Well then, so much for highlight reels! We don't need another Milton. With Volquez purportedly throwing a 95+ FB I hope the flyballs are of the high vertical/low horizontal variety.

I'm all for the trade. It's not like a being a fly-ball pitcher has to be a bad thing, its just not as good as groundballs. Remeber: Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo are flyball pitchers...

gedred69
12-21-2007, 09:12 PM
I like this deal just because we have 3 young pitchers that could turn into pretty great pitchers, and id rather have a surplus of pitching than the surplus of OF every day of the week.

With all the prospects the Reds have in the OF, not to mention guys who are currently playing IF that may just as well be even better suited to play in the OF someday, I agree totally that a surplus of pitching prospects is extremely desirable. I think WK is pretty keen at seeing the big picture. It could blow up in his face, but his thought process seems sound.

Rocket_Fuel
12-21-2007, 09:13 PM
I stopped listening to 700wlw a long time ago. You talk about the lowest common denominator! We need pitching badly, and Reds fans BEGGED the Reds to trash their excess of outfielders for pitching. Well, our GM does it for several quality young arms, and does it for cheap and puts in place building blocks for now and the future and fans are whining about losing another outfielder. 700WLW fans = nutjobs.

Rocket_Fuel
12-21-2007, 09:21 PM
The best part are the fans claiming that Hamilton is the best player the Reds have, pitcher or outfielder, thus this was a bad deal and proof why the Reds can't compete. What in the world? How man times do the Reds have to keep a "can't miss" outfield prospect before people realize we need to focus on pitching.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 09:41 PM
I agree he was probably our best player last year, when he was on the field!

Sad to see him go and would probably have loved a OF of Hamilton, Bruce, Dunn for a few years but the idea of having this Volquez guy, Bailey and Cueto gets me a little more excited.

TN Red Fan
12-21-2007, 10:18 PM
What happened was that the Mariners upped their offer for Bedard to counter WK upping our offer.

At that point, WK said "this is all too rich for my blood" and backed off Bedard.

Bedard is going to the Mariners and we're giving up on this season.

Gotta admit I'm pretty dissappointed.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-21-2007, 10:31 PM
What happened was that the Mariners upped their offer for Bedard to counter WK upping our offer.

At that point, WK said "this is all too rich for my blood" and backed off Bedard.

Bedard is going to the Mariners and we're giving up on this season.

Gotta admit I'm pretty dissappointed.Why do I not see this as giving up on this season? Our rotation looks better right now than it was last year, our bullpen looks better than last year by far, we really didn't lose much offense with Hamilton being hurt off and on last year, and we were not that far out of it last year. If another team in the central had gotten much better this offseason maybe I'd agree, but they havn't.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-21-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm all for the trade. It's not like a being a fly-ball pitcher has to be a bad thing, its just not as good as groundballs. Remeber: Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo are flyball pitchers...If this guy already has a plus change imagine what some time with Soto could do for him.

757690
12-21-2007, 10:44 PM
What happened was that the Mariners upped their offer for Bedard to counter WK upping our offer.

At that point, WK said "this is all too rich for my blood" and backed off Bedard.

Bedard is going to the Mariners and we're giving up on this season.

Gotta admit I'm pretty dissappointed.


Gotta admit, I have a feeling that unless the Reds traded Bruce and Cueto to the Orioles for Bedard, you'd be dissappointed no matter what else happened.

George Foster
12-21-2007, 10:49 PM
God I hate to see Hamilton go. He was my favorite player last season. Some of his plays in the OF, and some of those lasors he hit to the opposite field last year was the reason we called him the natural.

My only regret is that "K" has not really tried to trade Griffey and the 12 million a year contract. I guess the Rangers were not interested in Griffey/Freel.

redsfan1966
12-21-2007, 10:50 PM
I heard SportsTalk on WLW tonite and all I can say is what a horrible follow up to the last show of a legend (Gary Burbank). I cant decide which was worse--the idiot callers criticizing the Hamilton trade or listening to "Seg" stutter and stammer his way through another three hour show. I love ya "Seggie"--but damn, stick to updates and being Willie's "stooge".

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 10:54 PM
Gotta admit, I have a feeling that unless the Reds traded Bruce and Cueto to the Orioles for Bedard, you'd be dissappointed no matter what else happened.

The man has a right to his opinion. Bringing a guy like Bedard over instead of EV would have given us a much better chance to win this year and probably the next. Having been a Reds' fan since the year I was born (1976) I can certainly appreciate the desire to freaking WIN now.

However, EV did not cost us our entire farm system, he's cheaper, has a great upside and we're not a team that's necessarily designed to win in '08. We may...IF most of our young pitchers can produce and if guys like Votto and Bruce mash like we think they will.

One thing that cannot be said about the 2008 Reds, as currently constructed, is that there is no talent. There is a boatload.

mroby85
12-21-2007, 10:59 PM
do you think the bedard deal is completely dead then after this one?

RedsFanWC
12-21-2007, 11:04 PM
This is absolutely a great trade for the Reds, I think Volquez can be like Carlos Zambrano. A guy with great stuff that will K a lot of guys, wont give up a lot of hits but will have command issues.

Hamilton was great last year but does have injury problems and more importantly he struggles against lefties. His total numbers were so high because his ABs were so skewed towards facing righties (220 versus 80).

TN Red Fan
12-21-2007, 11:07 PM
do you think the bedard deal is completely dead then after this one?

I thought so when I first saw this, but then you have to wonder, what sense does it make to have 6 starters? Insurance? I say Maloney is insurance. Maybe they do plan to flip Volquez for Bedard.

I can understand why the Orioles wouldn't want Hamilton. It's been reported that what they really want is pitching.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-21-2007, 11:09 PM
do you think the bedard deal is completely dead then after this one?I don't see it happening, it has been way too public for a WK kind of deal. Hamilton to the Rangers was mentioned but I don't think any of us thought anything would come of it. Go back to some earlier trade rumor threads that were not discussed much and I'll bet you find the next trade. As we speak I am using my little orphan annie decoder to figure it out. Is there a pitcher named ovaltine? God I need to stop drunk posting.:beerme:

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-21-2007, 11:19 PM
I thought so when I first saw this, but then you have to wonder, what sense does it make to have 6 starters? Insurance? I say Maloney is insurance. Maybe they do plan to flip Volquez for Bedard.

I can understand why the Orioles wouldn't want Hamilton. It's been reported that what they really want is pitching.
very true, maybe the O's had no interest in Hamilton and this deal has no meaning as far as the Bedard situation goes. The only way this has to do with the O's deal is if they want an outfielder, if so I think it's a dead deal, if not I don't see this changing anything.

George Foster
12-21-2007, 11:30 PM
my wife's prospective:

"Why did they have to trade Hamilton? God, you get emotionally invested in a player and they go off and trade him. Why not trade Freel....he's a basket case, with that whole Barney thing."

You have to love a gal who remembers the "Barney" thing. Most chics don't even know the players besides Griffey.:thumbup:

Handofdeath
12-21-2007, 11:49 PM
Let me see if I understand this. The Reds paid next to nothing to get Hamilton. A year later they trade that same player, who has less than 300 MLB AB's and is an injury prone drug addict, to another team for 2 pitchers who dominated in the Minors last season. One of those pitchers, who is a starter, is probably Major-League ready right now and may be better than any of the prospects you already have. They previously traded for a player who wound up being one of the best 2B in MLB in Brandon Phillips and gave up a SP who hasn't pitched above AA yet. They traded for Bronson Arroyo, who has been a very effective pitcher for the Reds, and gave up a guy who is not even with the other club anymore. WK is either very lucky or very good at what he does and nobody is that lucky. WK is really doing his homework and is working hard because he is just fleecing these other teams.

Carolina Red
12-21-2007, 11:56 PM
Just when I'm beginning to get over the Dusty Baker signing now this. Maybe it's time for Krivsky and Castellini to go. This team will be worse than last years. No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown. This is worse than the deal with Washington a couple of years back. We needed him in our outfield to replace Griffey in 09. I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

6-4-3
12-22-2007, 12:01 AM
Just when I'm beginning to get over the Dusty Baker signing now this. Maybe it's time for Krivsky and Castellini to go. This team will be worse than last years. No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown. This is worse than the deal with Washington a couple of years back. We needed him in our outfield to replace Griffey in 09. I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal.

That wins the worst post ever contest.

Carolina Red
12-22-2007, 12:10 AM
That wins the worst post ever contest.

Glad you are here to critique everyone's posts. I guess you think trading a 26 y/o 5 tool outfielder for a 24 y/o pitcher with a 4.50 ERA is a genius move.

Betterread
12-22-2007, 12:12 AM
I'm surprised at this trade. Volquez has great potential, great stuff but he gives up a lot of HRs and needs a better breaking pitch. I really liked Hamilton. I wish him luck with the Rangers.

6-4-3
12-22-2007, 12:23 AM
Glad you are here to critique everyone's posts. I guess you think trading a 26 y/o 5 tool outfielder for a 24 y/o pitcher with a 4.50 ERA is a genius move.

Pitching wins baseball games. Volquez has tremendous tools. 4.50 era in 34 ip (not even a small sample size).

No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown.

Who is he any unknown to? People who don't follow the game?

Among Rangers farmhands in 2007, Volquez ranked first in strikeouts (166 in 144.2 innings), second in victories and fifth in ERA. He entered 2007 rated by Baseball America as the third-best prospect in the organization. Following the season he was ranked as the 13th-best prospect in the entire Pacific Coast League.

The Reds were able to get him for a Rule V selection. As an organization the Reds had to make this move. They now have Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, and Maloney all ranging from 21-24 years old. That is the most "pitcher rich" this organization has been in several years.


I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal.

Is this the same Adam Dunn who puts up OBP.'s in the .380's every year. His lowest OBP in his career was .354. Is this the same Adam Dunn who has 3 times finished in the top 10 in the NL in times on base? ('02, '04, '05) Is this the same Adam Dunn who has 5 times been in the top 10 in the NL in walks? ('02, '04-'07) Man I hate those guys that get on base.

While Hamilton is w/o question a 5-tool player, he is also a big question mark. He has only played in 90 big league games, with 298 ab's. He also demonstrated that he is injury prone, and his past substance abuse problems have created cause for concern. The Reds have Jay Bruce ready to fill the CF role. Dunn will be signed to a LTC. That leaves RF opening up with Jr moving out in '09. OF spots are much easier to fill than finding quality young arms such as Volquez.

ChatterRed
12-22-2007, 12:50 AM
The reason this move is outstanding is because we have a solid replacement for Hamilton, in Jay Bruce. Don't tell me that the #1 prospect in all of baseball is going to be a bust. It just ain't happening. So Hamilton was the perfect guy to trade and most likely not miss a beat in the outfield.

Now the Reds have Harang, Arroyo, Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney, Belisle, etc..... to compete. Plus they will have control over Volquez for many a year.

People talk about "sure" things..............Bedard hasn't exactly pitched a ton of innings every year. He seems to break down........and could be a huge risk. This trade is far less risky than what the Orioles were demanding.

I will laugh at what the Orioles get in return at this point with the Reds out of the mix.

757690
12-22-2007, 01:12 AM
This trade means that the Reds will have five guys (Belisle, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, and Maloney) between the ages of 21 and 27, competing for the 3,4 and 5 Starting pitching spots, a 26 year old set up man in Burton, and possibly 21 year old Jay Bruce starting in center next year.

I guess that kills the notion that Dusty Baker was only going to play veterans as Red manager.

Nasty_Boy
12-22-2007, 01:40 AM
Just when I'm beginning to get over the Dusty Baker signing now this. Maybe it's time for Krivsky and Castellini to go. This team will be worse than last years. No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown. This is worse than the deal with Washington a couple of years back. We needed him in our outfield to replace Griffey in 09. I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

I would venture to say that most "baseball people" would disagree with you on this one.
;)

mlbfan30
12-22-2007, 01:45 AM
Here's a thought....
Both Volquez and Bailey have the same pitches

Fastball
Change
Curve

Both pitchers have + Fastballs, but struggle with command on all pitches.
Volquez has a + Change, but a bad Curve.
Bailey has a + Curve, but a bad Change.

In fact acording to PitchFX, there were very similar in the component of pitches they threw, except the amount of curveball and changes were switched for each pitcher.

Hopefully this could promote some good competition between them to see who has the better pitches, or better command, or etc. They could build off each other possibly since they are so similar.
One thing that would be bad would be them pitching back to back, so Belisle should be the 4th starter to split them up.

tbball10
12-22-2007, 01:45 AM
This trade means that the Reds will have five guys (Belisle, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, and Maloney) between the ages of 21 and 27, competing for the 3,4 and 5 Starting pitching spots, a 26 year old set up man in Burton, and possibly 21 year old Jay Bruce starting in center next year.

I guess that kills the notion that Dusty Baker was only going to play veterans as Red manager.

not to mention a 24 year old 1st baseman, a 25 year old 3rd baseman, and a 26 year old 2nd baseman.

Hands22
12-22-2007, 02:41 AM
What great news to come home from to as a Reds fan. I loved watching Hamilton and hopes he tears it up but with the surplus of outfielders, pitching was obviously a stronger need. Young, cheap pitching locked up for several years.

It's not bad from the Rangers side though. They give away a 24 year old who they put in A ball again last year to try and build him back up to the majors. Lacks control, work ethic has both been praised and questioned. They've never developed any arms, and he's behind Eric Hurley now. Why not go out and get a guy who was a former #1 pick that had supposedly, by some, have once in a decade talent. Came up last year and tore it up. Plus he's a young 26 since he wasn't in ball and they could have him through all his supposid "prime years" on a minimum.

With Hamilton's drug previous drug issues and his inability to stay healthy, he was a ticking time bomb and I'm glad the Reds had the number of good OFs in the system that they can deal a guy like Him while his value is still high. It could get higher but in a year we've turned a rule 5 pick into a guy who throws mid to high 90's fastball that drops, and has filthy offspeed stuff.

I realy really like the deal as I think about more. I also really like that sending away Hamilton seemingly decreases the odds that WK will be lured into dealing away Jay Bruce for Bedard. After getting a very ncie pitching prospect if the Reds can land Bedard for Only 2 of Cueto/Bailey/Votto I will be thrilled at our off-season including Cordero, and I actually like the way this team is heading for the future. It's been a while since that happened.

Hands22
12-22-2007, 03:02 AM
I really want a Bedard deal done now. Hypothetically if the Reds fluke out a Bedard deal involving Cueto or Bailey and Votto then adding something like Stubbs or whatever... In two offseasons WK has managed to swap Bailey/Cueto for Volquez along with trading a LH first basemen, a LH OF which was a rule 5 pick, and a toolsy outfielder for a Lefty like Bedard. Me Likes.

donnelly_31
12-22-2007, 07:23 AM
Love the deal. The Reds have had plenty of great power hitting OF for years and look how many w's that has produced. Its time to get more guys in the lineup that can hit .300 plus and strike out less. Pitching with out a ? wins and will always be valued higher than an outfielder.

AmarilloRed
12-22-2007, 08:45 AM
A couple of thoughts. We now have Dunn- Bruce-Griffey in the outfield for the next 2 years. The Reds now have no choice but to extend Adam Dunn, and I could see us picking up the option on Griffey as well. I like Hamilton, but there was always a risk he would be unable to stay healthy. I wish him all the luck in Texas.

Degenerate39
12-22-2007, 10:08 AM
Just when I'm beginning to get over the Dusty Baker signing now this. Maybe it's time for Krivsky and Castellini to go. This team will be worse than last years. No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown. This is worse than the deal with Washington a couple of years back. We needed him in our outfield to replace Griffey in 09. I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

You've just opened Pandora's box to a lot of people with that statement. As much as I hate losing Hamilton I'd rather have Dunn because Dunn is a proven commodity. Dunn's had 40 home runs each season for the last few years and at least 90 RBI's. He gets 100 runs a year and 100 walks so it's not like he doesn't get on base. If you switch Dunn over to the Phillies and Ryan Howard to the Reds would you be complaining about Howard's RBIs? Probably not. And when Howard's healthy he can strikeout more than Adam Dunn. Dunn improved over the 2007 season and he's still getting crap like this.

kaldaniels
12-22-2007, 10:26 AM
Just when I'm beginning to get over the Dusty Baker signing now this. Maybe it's time for Krivsky and Castellini to go. This team will be worse than last years. No way in heck I would have traded Josh for some unknown. This is worse than the deal with Washington a couple of years back. We needed him in our outfield to replace Griffey in 09. I guess the next stupid thing to do is resign Dunn and his 200 strikeouts to a long term multi million dollar deal. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

You need to wake up and face reality. At this point in his career, Josh Hamilton is still an unknown. Maybe not to the extent of the pitchers we are getting in return...but don't act like Hamilton is a sure thing.....don't get me wrong I wish him the best, but he has yet to show he is an everyday season-long player in the bigs.

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 10:31 AM
You need to wake up and face reality. At this point in his career, Josh Hamilton is still an unknown. Maybe not to the extent of the pitchers we are getting in return...but don't act like Hamilton is a sure thing.....don't get me wrong I wish him the best, but he has yet to show he is an everyday season-long player in the bigs.


According to every report I've seen about Ednison and why he got demoted was to get him back to the fundamentals, using all his pitches, controlling them, and making him work again. The Rangers pitching coach did the same thing to Halladay, and Halladay won the Cy Young the following year. Not saying that its going to happen here, but Edinson did put it all together in September.

I think the fact that you get a 24 year old pitcher who has MASS potentional for Hamilton, which is basically making that pitcher a Rule V pick himself...its amazing.

kaldaniels
12-22-2007, 10:35 AM
According to every report I've seen about Ednison and why he got demoted was to get him back to the fundamentals, using all his pitches, controlling them, and making him work again. The Rangers pitching coach did the same thing to Halladay, and Halladay won the Cy Young the following year. Not saying that its going to happen here, but Edinson did put it all together in September.

I think the fact that you get a 24 year old pitcher who has MASS potentional for Hamilton, which is basically making that pitcher a Rule V pick himself...its amazing.

Agreed.

Stephenk29
12-22-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm surprised everyone here is so high on this move. We traded out starting CF for a pitching prospect. I've always thought Reds fans have overrated Hamilton but in this case I think he got underrated. Volquez was the Rangers #3 pitching prospect. We couldn't get more in return for our Centerfielder who is still a top prospect himself? Volquez's control was such an issue they demoted him all the way back to single A last year. I know this is smart decision in the sense we need to upgrade pitching and Hamilton was easily the best option to go, but the Rangers #3 prospect and a lefty in AA? Baseball America only projected him as their #4 guy in the rotation. At the same time obviously Krivsky exhausted his options to get the best in return (I hope at least). I'm disappointed someone with so much upside couldn't get us more. Volquez has fallen from grace a bit as he was once their top rated prospect. I'm still on the fence myself but I expected a lot more disagreement on the boards.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/262987.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/032407dnsporangbriefs.3dd2eb6.html

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm surprised everyone here is so high on this move. We traded out starting CF for a pitching prospect. I've always thought Reds fans have overrated Hamilton but in this case I think he got underrated. Volquez was the Rangers #3 pitching prospect. We couldn't get more in return for our Centerfielder who is still a top prospect himself? Volquez's control was such an issue they demoted him all the way back to single A last year. I know this is smart decision in the sense we need to upgrade pitching and Hamilton was easily the best option to go, but the Rangers #3 prospect and a lefty in AA? The Rangers only projected him as their #4 guy in the rotation. At the same time obviously Krivsky exhausted his options to get the best in return (I hope at least). I'm disappointed someone with so much upside couldn't get us more. Volquez has fallen from grace a bit as he was once their top rated prospect. I'm still on the fence myself but I expected a lot more disagreement on the boards.



The Rangers? They have no idea what pitching prospects are, they traded Danks and everyone else too. Volquez never fell from grace, cause he never pitched more than 50 innings in the majors too.

Stephenk29
12-22-2007, 10:49 AM
The Rangers? They have no idea what pitching prospects are, they traded Danks and everyone else too. Volquez never fell from grace, cause he never pitched more than 50 innings in the majors too.

I went off of Baseball America's ratings of him.

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 10:53 AM
I went off of Baseball America's ratings of him.

Who doesn't rank him behind Danks and Hurley?

Stephenk29
12-22-2007, 10:56 AM
Honestly I'm not going to claim I know a whole lot about Rangers pitching prospects. That's why I'm also asking :)

AdamDunn
12-22-2007, 10:56 AM
I don't like it. I think we could have gotten more elsewhere. I'm not sold on Edison. Doesn't control well enough. I think his ceiling is a No.3 pitcher. Herrera sounds like a big gamble as well since he pitches so slow. I don't like this a bit. Not to mention we didn't even get my favorite minor league shortstop in Elvis Andrus!!!

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't like it. I think we could have gotten more elsewhere. I'm not sold on Edison. Doesn't control well enough. I think his ceiling is a No.3 pitcher. Herrera sounds like a big gamble as well since he pitches so slow. I don't like this a bit. Not to mention we didn't even get my favorite minor league shortstop in Elvis Andrus!!!

Number 3? He has a 95/97 fastball and a 75/80 change up. He's got eletric stuff and a HUGE strike out rate for Triple A. He's defiantally a number 2, but the fact that he is going to help Bailey and Cueto..it doesnt matter if he's a number 1/2/3. Part is he's young and good.

AdamDunn
12-22-2007, 11:22 AM
Number 3? He has a 95/97 fastball and a 75/80 change up. He's got eletric stuff and a HUGE strike out rate for Triple A. He's defiantally a number 2, but the fact that he is going to help Bailey and Cueto..it doesnt matter if he's a number 1/2/3. Part is he's young and good.

Where did u read 95-97? I've read between 92-94. And I'm just not sold on his work ethic and control.

FlightRick
12-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Bottom line: the Reds and Rangers just exchanged potential future megastars, both of whom have MAJOR question marks surrounding them. And both teams dealt from an area of strength to bolster an area of weakness.

Yes, we have no idea how things will look in 3 years (it might be an Even-Steven deal, or it could easily be a blow out for one side or the other), but color me shocked! Because this is an all-too-rare deal where it appears -- on paper, and in the present day -- that two major league baseball teams both operated logically and sensibly in crafting a fair and equitable deal. It's just that because both are such high-risk/high-reward type players right now, we've got fans with their panties bunched, all unable to agree on the basic parameters of what risks and rewards are associated with each player.

For instance, just two or three posts above, we see somebody who believes Volquez's ceiling is as a #3 starter. It seems to me that the overwhelming preponderance of information suggests he's got Ace Stuff (and put it together well enough last year to be the Rangers' Minor League Player of the Year). Perhaps if you're under-valuing Volquez, it's because you're projecting his risk factors NOT onto his likelihood to MEET his potential, but instead onto the quantity of his potential to begin with. But that ain't how it works.

Same exact thing with Hamilton, where Hamilton's own risk factors are maybe coloring perceptions, but in the opposite way. He was "our" guy, so it's natural to ignore the risk factors, and thus, focus solely on the fact that this guy has 10-time All Star written all over him, potentially. But hey, guess what? The injury concerns are real. The "personal demons" are real. And if you just want to limit the discussion to baseball, Hamilton's lefty/righty splits last year were enough to make David Ross's vomit-inducing 2007 season appear to be the work of an offensive juggernaut (I am not joking: Hamilton versus lefties OPS'ed .588, Ross OPS'ed .680 on the year). And at his age, you can't "start over" by sending Hamilton down for some polishing in the minors (like Texas did to get Volquez on track), you just have to either accept the crap numbers against lefties and hope he learns on the job, or you have to platoon him. Neither of those scenerios guarantees All-Star level success; but again, neither outright disqualifies it, either.

Anyway, that's my rant about volatile and head-bang-inducing nature of this "debate." Too much high-risk, too much high-reward, and far too many people looking at those risks and rewards through wildly varying filters for there to be consensus. But honestly: nobody got fleeced here, and in fact, this strikes me as one of the most even and logically constructed trades we've seen this off-season.

Then again, who knows? Maybe my own personal "filter" is the idea that I'm too smart to get caught wearing a filter at all, so I just assume I'm being the sensible one...


Rick

AdamDunn
12-22-2007, 11:39 AM
"He's got a fastball, in the 92-94 (mph) range, but can go get 97 when he needs to. He's got a hard breaking ball that acts like a slurve at times. He's got impressive stuff, it's a matter of him maturing and commanding that stuff." -WK

terminator
12-22-2007, 11:52 AM
Where did u read 95-97? I've read between 92-94. And I'm just not sold on his work ethic and control.
The first video on the MLB site that was linked early in the thread show him hitting 97 during the game.

Bip Roberts
12-22-2007, 12:12 PM
Where did u read 95-97? I've read between 92-94. And I'm just not sold on his work ethic and control.

Watch some highlights on MLB.com he is more in the 94-97 range

fewfirstchoice
12-22-2007, 12:20 PM
WK said he pitches in the 92-94 range but can get it up to 97-98 when he needs to.I take that to mean he doesnt pitch 100% velocity all the time,just about 90 or 95%.Then he can find a little extra when he needs it.I think this is a good deal for the Reds and it also in my opinion opens the door for a deal for another pitcher either Bedard or Blanton.It makes Cueto or Bailey free to envolve in a trade.I seen WK say that about his pitching speed in a article on mlb.com sorry dont know how to post a link.

Bip Roberts
12-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Another take on this trade is if this guy doesnt put it together as a starter he could still make one heck of a reliever. While Hammy might not make it as an everyday OF he could also make it as a DH

crazybob60
12-22-2007, 12:54 PM
I am sure something like this has already been said here, but here is my take on this trade and also what could be happening in the near future, I am going to go back and read the thread, I just wanted to get my opinion out there and see what you all think. Again, if this has already been said like a million times before, I apologize.

From what I remember of Volquez from fantasy a few months ago, is that he has the potential to be great....I could easily see this trade as a precursor to a 'bigger' one actually which would send another one of our young arms (Bailey, or Cueto) and Votto and then say another player (not Bruce, I truely think they will get it done without trading Bruce, yesh I most certainly do!) for Bedard. That means that the Rangers trade opens up room in the OF for Jay Bruce and the acquisition of Volquez helps ease the pain of losing a top flight young prospect pitcher because we gained the top of the heap one in Texas. That means our rotation could fill up nicely once we also figure out about 1B and what our future will be there. (Isn't there a kid we have coming up that is tearing the ball off at 1B as well, I can't rightly remember.) Also, we have some backups on the mound now too, although young backups, they still have a tad depth and if they mature quickly enough, but remember taking time to smell the roses too, cuz you don't want burn out or whatever.....then for the first time in years the staff could belooking awfully GREAT!!!! Now only if the Bedard deal goes down......waiting on Wayne 'Poker Face' Krivsky.

dunner13
12-22-2007, 01:46 PM
this may have already been discussed but does anyone know about volquezs salary situation. i know hes making the minimum right now but when is he eligible for abritration and free agency?

Blue
12-22-2007, 02:02 PM
this may have already been discussed but does anyone know about volquezs salary situation. i know hes making the minimum right now but when is he eligible for abritration and free agency?

He does not have a year of service time under his belt, so he belongs to the Reds through 2013.

thatcoolguy_22
12-22-2007, 02:18 PM
I am on the sidekick so I will have to keep this short until I get home and can post a real response or 2 but I would like to say tha,t I LOVE THIS TRADE!!!!!


Great move by WK!

Also I am reescinding on my previous statements of trying to win now. I think we should let the kids take their bumps in '08. We have the beginnings of a DOMINANT pitching staff in the very near future... I am happy to see the direction of this team starting to unfold

Vada Pinson Fan
12-22-2007, 02:56 PM
Here's my two cents- Starting pitching, being difficult to acquire, is at a premium this off-season. So did Krivsky overpay in this trade of Hamilton for Volquez and Herrera? Possibly, but something had to be done to bolster the rotation. I'm willing to wait and see if Volquez can find his control. If he can the trade works. I see two possibilities opening up from this trade-
1.) The Reds sign free agent Mike Cameron - Type B to once again patrol centerfield for the Reds.
2.) The Reds flip Volquez in a trade with Baltimore for you know who. A Krivsky-McPhail conversation could have went something like this: Hey Mac, since you have no interest in Hamilton, who would you like to have from a team if we could trade Josh Hamilton to get a player or two you'd like? Sure, this is all in fun but I'm thinking Castellini wants to win NOW and the trade of JH does little in hopes of making the playoffs in '08. I do agree with some of the other posts on here saying that the Reds offense may even be better in 2008 b/c having Joey Votto and Jay Bruce for the entire year (not a given in Bruce's case) would offset the loss of Josh Hamilton.

If Volquez remains a Red, the young hurlers the Reds have (Bailey, Cueto, Volquez and Maloney) appear to be very formidable in the very near future which may include the 2008 season.

Overall I like the trade but I am concerned if Griffey and Dunn leave after the 2008 season. Thus the need for Cameron. I was impressed with Hopper and his bunting last season. It was fun watching other teams trying to defense Norris and then with his sweet bunting and speed beating those out for hits. I hope the Reds can sign Dunn long-term.

In this case I give WK credit for making the trade. He has had since the end of the season to gauge interest in Josh Hamilton and this is the best he could do. I have been critical of Wayne's moves/actions at times but as it stands now, it looks like a fair trade between both teams. Go Reds!!!

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 03:16 PM
In this case I give WK credit for making the trade. He has had since the end of the season to gauge interest in Josh Hamilton and this is the best he could do. I have been critical of Wayne's moves/actions at times but as it stands now, it looks like a fair trade between both teams. Go Reds!!!


I think thats what people are forgetting..Hamilton played a whole half a season for us, sucked big time against left handers and was injured the rest of the time. He was good for us but we needed a righthanded bat and pitching. It was known before that people questioned Hamiltons durability so no I dont think Kriv could have gotten much more for him..A Number 2 potentional 24 year old starter.

Im not cutting Kriv short on this, I think that GM's already had it in their head that Hamilton was a bigger risk..and that cut his value down a ton.

ChatterRed
12-22-2007, 04:30 PM
I think thats what people are forgetting..Hamilton played a whole half a season for us, sucked big time against left handers and was injured the rest of the time. He was good for us but we needed a righthanded bat and pitching. It was known before that people questioned Hamiltons durability so no I dont think Kriv could have gotten much more for him..A Number 2 potentional 24 year old starter.

Im not cutting Kriv short on this, I think that GM's already had it in their head that Hamilton was a bigger risk..and that cut his value down a ton.

I agree.

While I think Hamilton is a stud. I think opposing GM"s were using Hamilton's past against him in trade ideas.

WK probably got the best deal he could.

dsmith421
12-22-2007, 06:07 PM
Where did u read 95-97? I've read between 92-94. And I'm just not sold on his work ethic and control.

Good to know we have a bona fide expert here.

INRedsFan
12-22-2007, 06:18 PM
The reason this move is outstanding is because we have a solid replacement for Hamilton, in Jay Bruce. Don't tell me that the #1 prospect in all of baseball is going to be a bust. It just ain't happening. So Hamilton was the perfect guy to trade and most likely not miss a beat in the outfield.

Now the Reds have Harang, Arroyo, Volquez, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney, Belisle, etc..... to compete. Plus they will have control over Volquez for many a year.

People talk about "sure" things..............Bedard hasn't exactly pitched a ton of innings every year. He seems to break down........and could be a huge risk. This trade is far less risky than what the Orioles were demanding.

I will laugh at what the Orioles get in return at this point with the Reds out of the mix.

Josh, thanks for a great year last year. We wish you the best in the future.

As a Reds fan, I hope that Bailey and Bruce turn out to be great players. Each of these players have less major league experience than Josh. They have put up good numbers in the minors and we can only hope that they can do the same in the majors.

AmarilloRed
12-22-2007, 06:27 PM
The Reds seem to have bolstered their starting rotation with this trade. Bailey, Volquez, Cueto, and Maloney will all be competing for 2 rotation spots, and it is entirely possible the Reds might still add a proven veteran to also comepte for a SP spot.

On the other hand, we may have weakened our outfield depth with this move. Dunn and Griffey will be here this year, but neither is guaranteed past this year. This now puts a lot of pressure on the Reds to sign Dunn to a LTC, and even Griffey might have his 2009 option picked up. The Reds seem to be clearing a path for Jay Bruce, and he will have to play himself out in spring training to not be a starting outfielder. I don't see Freel, Hopper, or Dickerson playing 162 games next year.

sig
01-02-2008, 01:53 PM
I follow the Rangers quite closely living in the area. Volquez is a great prospect but is not a sure thing.

2 years ago the Rangers were touting the trio of Danks, Volquez and Diamond as their starters of the future. I think by the end of 2006, they became disappinted in Volquez.

With the emergence of Hurley as their new untouchable minor league pitcher, Danks got traded for McCarty (yuk) whom the rangers determined was equal in talent and more ready to pitch now. Diamond, I think had Tommy john surgery.

Volquez started off 2007 still struggling but then finished the season strong from June on. Hopefully he has arrived for good and this is not a case of the rangers moving him when his value is high. As a Reds fan, I think they came out better off here because they received a promising pitcher but who knows.