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View Full Version : Does that mean we sign Cameron?



gobucks106
12-21-2007, 06:45 PM
Or is Jay Bruce ready? I sure hope this trade isn't a sign we are not going to try and get a Bedard or Blanton type pitcher.

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 06:46 PM
I would think that it means Jay Bruce is in CF in 2008.

Much as I hate to see Hammy go, ^^^^ is exciting.

Nasty_Boy
12-21-2007, 07:12 PM
I think this means Jay Bruce and Norris Hopper are going to share some ABs. And as much as I hate it, it probably means Ryan Freaking Freel is back for another season.

This is a trade that I think is going to work out for both teams.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 07:42 PM
I think it might be a decent signing if it came to that

Oxilon
12-21-2007, 08:05 PM
The only way I can see us signing Cameron is too have Griffey start the season in RF, and at midseason, bring up Bruce to platoon with Griffey in right. Than, at the end of next season, Griffey walks as a FA, and we're looking at an outfield of Dunn-Cameron-Bruce, which is a pretty solid defensive outfield. Ofcourse, Cameron's bat is only going to be degressing.

hippie07
12-21-2007, 08:19 PM
The only way I can see us signing Cameron is too have Griffey start the season in RF, and at midseason, bring up Bruce to platoon with Griffey in right. Than, at the end of next season, Griffey walks as a FA, and we're looking at an outfield of Dunn-Cameron-Bruce, which is a pretty solid defensive outfield. Ofcourse, Cameron's bat is only going to be degressing.

well, I really don't want to take a stance in defense of Cameron's bat... why degressing?

I project him as having similar numbers to AGon ... known for his defense but seeing a big inflation in his offense due to moving from pitcher's parks to a hitter's park... he'll be decent at the plate, IMO.

Blue
12-21-2007, 08:29 PM
He might OPS around .800 or so. I'd like to sign him as long as it doesn't hold Bruce back. He could give other guys a rest and play if Griffey is injured again. Over .900 OPS against lefties. He could help in a limited role.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Plus he won't be available in April because of his suspension... Griffey will probably be hurt by then...

BucksandReds
12-21-2007, 08:38 PM
If Cameron is cheap then sign him. If not then no thanks

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 08:46 PM
What is cheap? To me, it is $5 million or less for 2 years...

757690
12-21-2007, 08:57 PM
From Trent, quoating Krivdawg:

On center: "Thatís open for competition, thatís what spring trainig will determine. Dusty will play the guy heís giving, with Hopper, Freel, Dickerson and Bruce weíre with four guys in competition for playing time."

To me that sounds like he doesn't have a center fielder for next year and would like to sign Cameron.

Cameron would be a great option, since it looks like he will be cheap, and he would be a great fourth outfielder if Bruce does develop next year. It is always good to have depth at every position.

However bad his bat his, he more than makes up for it with his defense. If he is in center, I see the Reds team ERA going down at least a half a run.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 09:02 PM
He's adequate offensively. He's had an OPS+ over 100 pretty much every year of his career...

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2007, 09:03 PM
I wouldn't be horrified if it happened although I would rather see the money used towards a left-handed bullpen arm or towards Dunn's LTC.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 09:11 PM
I wouldn't be horrified if it happened although I would rather see the money used towards a left-handed bullpen arm or towards Dunn's LTC.

ditto Dunn's LTC, but I'm a Jon Coutlangus fan...

Orenda
12-21-2007, 09:18 PM
I know I'm one of the few. But anybody else want on the Coco Crisp bandwagon? Boston seems willing to part with him.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 09:19 PM
Count me out for doing boston a favor.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 09:25 PM
I know I'm one of the few. But anybody else want on the Coco Crisp bandwagon? Boston seems willing to part with him.

Cameron would not cost talent and is a better hitter. Why?

Orenda
12-21-2007, 09:38 PM
Cameron K'd 160 times last year. Pencil him into a lineup with Dunn, and an aggressive hitter like Phillips and you have a recipe for a lot of men left on base. Keep in mind Jay Bruce struck out 135 times last year and those numbers would seem to go up in his first big league season. Cameron will give the reds more run production but Crisp plays better defense which will save runs considering who will be starting in the corners.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 09:42 PM
Cameron K'd 160 times last year. Pencil him into a lineup with Dunn, and an aggressive hitter like Phillips and you have a recipe for a lot of men left on base. Keep in mind Jay Bruce struck out 135 times last year and those numbers would seem to go up in his first big league season. Cameron will give the reds more run production but Crisp plays better defense which will save runs considering who will be starting in the corners.

Strikeouts don't matter. They have nothing to do with leaving men on base-they just replace other types of outs. Second point-so Crisp plays better defense and Cameron is a better hitter-that evens itself out. But Crisp would cost talent in a trade. Plus, Crisp bats left-handed while Cameron is a righty...

gedred69
12-21-2007, 09:56 PM
Me thinks the stage is set for Jay Bruce to show he is ready to be the starting CF for the Reds in "08 and many years beyond. The ball is in his court. ST will hopefully show if he is up to the task. Let's see how he does from say, 3/10 thru 3/25, when he will be facing front-liners seriously working on "getting ready" for the up-coming season.

Orenda
12-21-2007, 09:56 PM
Actually he hits from both sides of the plate. He's not the threat Cameron is against lefties, but he did hit 270 vs them last year. And as for the argument that strikeouts don't matter, what was all the fuss over the fact that Adam Dunn hadn't had a Sac Fly for so long then? Or say a man is on first with one out and the hitter fails to advance him? You know that argument is wrong. I would say that strikeouts are the reason that Adam Dunn drives in 100-105 a year while hitting 40 homers, while guys like Miguel Cabrera can drive in 115 a year simply because he can sacrifice some power and still be a better player.

*BaseClogger*
12-21-2007, 10:01 PM
Actually he hits from both sides of the plate. He's not the threat Cameron is against lefties, but he did hit 270 vs them last year. And as for the argument that strikeouts don't matter, what was all the fuss over the fact that Adam Dunn hadn't had a Sac Fly for so long then? Or say a man is on first with one out and the hitter fails to advance him? You know that argument is wrong. I would say that strikeouts are the reason that Adam Dunn drives in 100-105 a year while hitting 40 homers, while guys like Miguel Cabrera can drive in 115 a year simply because he can sacrifice some power and still be a better player.

I don't care how much Adam Dunn strikes out. I would say that if he strikes out with a runner on first that he didn't GIDP so it really doesn't matter. I would say that the reason he doesn't get more RBI's is his batting average-which by the way has nothing to do with strikeouts...

Orenda
12-21-2007, 10:09 PM
I don't care how much Adam Dunn strikes out. I would say that if he strikes out with a runner on first that he didn't GIDP so it really doesn't matter. I would say that the reason he doesn't get more RBI's is his batting average-which by the way has nothing to do with strikeouts...

Well does failing to use the whole field have anything to do with batting average? Particularly when the defense is giving you half the infield? I'd argue that a hitters approach has to do with strikeouts, batting average, and RBI's.

Bip Roberts
12-21-2007, 10:47 PM
Dunn has a problem with knowing when to swing. Hes almost too patient some times. If he would just take some chances at the plate he could be a real MVP candidate some day. thread starting to get derailed....

6-4-3
12-22-2007, 01:09 AM
Strikeouts don't matter. They have nothing to do with leaving men on base-they just replace other types of outs.

K's matter. With a runner on 3rd and 1 out...the batter K's runner left on 3rd...or the batter hits a fly ball (or even a ground ball to a non-corner infield spot) and the runner scores.

K's matter.

Blue
12-22-2007, 01:21 AM
K's matter. With a runner on 3rd and 1 out...the batter K's runner left on 3rd...or the batter hits a fly ball (or even a ground ball to a non-corner infield spot) and the runner scores.

K's matter.

Okay. This thread is determined to get sidetracked, and I'm just going to go with it.

The situation you speak of occurred with Dunn 27 times last season. That's it. (Incidentally, though it means nothing, he killed to the tune of a .946 OPS in that situation.)

Your analysis also assumes a high success rate. Its not that easy to control what the ball does.

Lastly, you should rarely be going to the plate intending to make a certain kind of out. The objective is to not make outs.

*BaseClogger*
12-22-2007, 01:24 AM
You can have 15 sac flies and yr and 15 DP's, and I'll take my walks and strikeouts...

6-4-3
12-22-2007, 01:39 AM
Your analysis also assumes a high success rate. Its not that easy to control what the ball does.

Lastly, you should rarely be going to the plate intending to make a certain kind of out. The objective is to not make outs.


I didn't say that the hitter attempted to make that kind of out. The goal should be to get a hit. However, a lot can be said for making contact. If the hitter simply puts the ball in play, the runner will score a good % of the time.

*BaseClogger*
12-22-2007, 01:44 AM
I didn't say that the hitter attempted to make that kind of out. The goal should be to get a hit. However, a lot can be said for making contact. If the hitter simply puts the ball in play, the runner will score a good % of the time.

Double plays negatives = contact driving in runs positives

not very complex...

6-4-3
12-22-2007, 08:23 AM
Double plays negatives = contact driving in runs positives

not very complex...


How is a batter going to hit into a double play by making contact when there is 1 out and a runner on 3rd?

TN Red Fan
12-22-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm not sure if he's still on the market, but Kenny Lofton would make a great platoon partner with Norris Hopper. My guess is at 40 y.o. he might be willing to take a 1-year deal.


Here's the splits:

Lofton
vs. RIGHT - .313/.386/.452

Hopper
vs. LEFT - .386/.423/.492

Even if you don't think Hopper can repeat last years numbers, a .325 BA/.390 OBP in a platoon is definately reasonable. So I think the pair would give us a pretty impressive leadoff hitter, something we don't have. It's at least a better option than Cameron, and to be honest, I doubt Bruce would put up better numbers as a rookie. I'd like to see him get a full year in AAA to work on the K/BB ratio anyway.


In my fantasy world, we'd have a Lofton/Hopper platoon leading off, a Hatteberg/Keppinger platoon batting 2nd, and a Griffey/Mench platoon batting third. Follow that with Dunn, Phillips, EE, Gonzo and Ross. We also have enough arms in the farm system to make a move for a catcher with a stick. How does Maloney for Mike Redmond sound? Let Ross be a defensive replacement.

That kind of lineup could bat .290 as a team.

AdamDunn
12-22-2007, 11:57 AM
I'm not sure if he's still on the market, but Kenny Lofton would make a great platoon partner with Norris Hopper. My guess is at 40 y.o. he might be willing to take a 1-year deal.


Here's the splits:

Lofton
vs. RIGHT - .313/.386/.452

Hopper
vs. LEFT - .386/.423/.492

Even if you don't think Hopper can repeat last years numbers, a .325 BA/.390 OBP in a platoon is definately reasonable. So I think the pair would give us a pretty impressive leadoff hitter, something we don't have. It's at least a better option than Cameron, and to be honest, I doubt Bruce would put up better numbers as a rookie. I'd like to see him get a full year in AAA to work on the K/BB ratio anyway.


In my fantasy world, we'd have a Lofton/Hopper platoon leading off, a Hatteberg/Keppinger platoon batting 2nd, and a Griffey/Mench platoon batting third. Follow that with Dunn, Phillips, EE, Gonzo and Ross. We also have enough arms in the farm system to make a move for a catcher with a stick. How does Maloney for Mike Redmond sound? Let Ross be a defensive replacement.

That kind of lineup could bat .290 as a team.

How good is Lofton defensively? He's getting really old...

TN Red Fan
12-22-2007, 12:03 PM
How good is Lofton defensively? He's getting really old...

I don't know, but he used to be one of the best, and he's still stealing bases like he did in his youth, so he's hasn't lost a step.

TexasRed
12-22-2007, 12:12 PM
Alright, this is a pretty radical thought, but....... I can't help but wonder what kind of CF'er Keppinger would make. THe guy has to be athletic to be even average at SS (which he is). He seems to have a good arm from what I saw of at third last year too. I love the guy's bat; he seems like a great candidate for an in-house leadoff guy who, while not the superfast Hopper type, has great instincts and can swipe a base here and there..... Am I crazt here?:dunno:

Dracodave
12-22-2007, 12:13 PM
Alright, this is a pretty radical thought, but....... I can't help but wonder what kind of CF'er Keppinger would make. THe guy has to be athletic to be even average at SS (which he is). He seems to have a good arm from what I saw of at third last year too. I love the guy's bat; he seems like a great candidate for an in-house leadoff guy who, while not the superfast Hopper type, has great instincts and can swipe a base here and there..... Am I crazt here?:dunno:

Kepp might be able to, but he would need to work on throwing strength, I really want to see someone in center who can throw people out alot.

AdamDunn
12-22-2007, 12:28 PM
I'm all for Mike Cameron. He's a right-handed bat and a solid defensive centerfielder. Not to mention he won't cost much and won't take anything besides a 1 year deal since he's suspended for the beginning of the season. But I'd be satisfied with Hopper too. I think he can lead off well enough for this season.

Bip Roberts
12-22-2007, 01:50 PM
Alright, this is a pretty radical thought, but....... I can't help but wonder what kind of CF'er Keppinger would make. THe guy has to be athletic to be even average at SS (which he is). He seems to have a good arm from what I saw of at third last year too. I love the guy's bat; he seems like a great candidate for an in-house leadoff guy who, while not the superfast Hopper type, has great instincts and can swipe a base here and there..... Am I crazt here?:dunno:

his range would end up being a problem just like it was when he was playing SS

SMcGavin
12-22-2007, 03:24 PM
How is a batter going to hit into a double play by making contact when there is 1 out and a runner on 3rd?

It's been rehashed a thousand times, but here we go.

In the situation you mentioned, striking out is worse than other kinds of out. In other situations, like with 1 out and a guy on 1st, strikeouts are better than other types of outs (like double play groundballs). When you average it out across all possible situations, as numerous studies have done, the conclusion is that all types of outs are basically the same.

Vada Pinson Fan
12-22-2007, 06:22 PM
I would welcome Mike Cameron back in a split second. Sign him to at least a two year deal to see if Adam Dunn wants to stay beyond 2008 or not. Griffey seems to be gone after 2008 unless he wants to renegotiate his option year for less $$$.

I think Cameron would hit well in GABP. Having his veteran presence in CF and his solid bat would be an asset for sure. I would much rather the Reds get MC than having him sign with one of our division foes.

AmarilloRed
12-22-2007, 07:04 PM
Here are the remaining center fielders in FA:
Mike Cameron (35) - Type B
Jason Lane (31)
Kenny Lofton (41) - Type B
Corey Patterson (28)
Alexei Ramirez (26)

*BaseClogger*
12-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Here are the remaining center fielders in FA:
Mike Cameron (35) - Type B
Jason Lane (31)
Kenny Lofton (41) - Type B
Corey Patterson (28)
Alexei Ramirez (26)

Ramirez just signed with the White Sox...