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View Full Version : The catcher position for the Reds



AmarilloRed
12-25-2007, 02:38 AM
I really would feel much better about next season if we had a better catcher to handle our young pitchers. It would seem the Reds agree with me . There are 4 additional catchers that will be coming to spring training along with Ross and Valentin: Alvin Colina,Chris Kroski, Ryan Hanigan, and Craig Tatum. Most of these are pretty down in our minor league system, but I expect the Reds to give Colina and Hanigan every chance to beat a .203 BA.

One other possibility I might look at is considering signing Johnny Estrada as a free agent. He did hit about .280, and I have heard there are 3 teams inquiring after him. The Reds really do need to look at the possibility of upgrading the catching position before the off-season ends.

Blue
12-25-2007, 03:32 AM
I agree that they need to upgrade their pitching. However, there is always a load of catchers given non-roster invitations. It takes a good number of them to work out all the pitchers.

Michael Barrett is the guy I'd like to see the Reds acquire.

mlbfan30
12-25-2007, 05:08 AM
The Reds need to sign Estrada and call up Tatum. While also keeping Valentine and Ross. This way if Ross goes down with an injury, after Valentine has pinch hit, they can replace him with Estrada. Then if Estrada gets injured we could replace him with Tatum. So if all 4 catchers go down, both Hatty and Freel have enough experience to catch. It's perfect logic no matter how many bad hitters it forces onto the team. BTW, I Hate Chad Moeller and WK for signing Moeller.
Seriously, how can you keep a hitter with an OPS+ of 4 for 3.5 months. Thats an OPS 96% below league average just to have an extra catcher for those cases listed above.

mlbfan30
12-25-2007, 05:19 AM
I agree that they need to upgrade their pitching. However, there is always a load of catchers given non-roster invitations. It takes a good number of them to work out all the pitchers.

Michael Barrett is the guy I'd like to see the Reds acquire.

The thing is for how much he's going to cost, is it really worth it?
Ross is 2.5 mil, and Barrett would cost 3.5mil and minor leaguers. Valentine is 1.5 mil. Assuming WK keeps all 3 (which he's shown to do in the past), that would cost 7.5 mil and mid level prospects.
Barrett has been good before, but last year his OPS+ was 68. Compared to 68 for Ross. And 82 for Valentine. So obviously you'd expect Barret to improve, but Ross's 2006 season had a higher OPS+ than Barretts. 130 to 121.
All the extra money and players do is more production from relativly the same level. He's not going to add anything overall and just cost money. What Barrett might add offensively compared to Ross, Ross will make up with his defense and game calling. I could understand it if Barrett was a lefty so they could both have advantages as hitters, but he's not.

redsfanfalcon
12-25-2007, 09:52 AM
Hasn't Estrada been poor at throwing out runners? If so, not sure I want to have young pitcher's overly worried about runners on.

BucksandReds
12-25-2007, 11:10 AM
I'm fine with a poor hitting catcher as long as his ability on the field remains at such a high level. With no ready prospects in our minors it would cost a king's ransom to get a catcher that can hit and is great in the field. We tried last year to get a young one in Saltamacchia but the Braves wanted too much.

Edd Roush
12-25-2007, 11:54 AM
I was really discouraged with Ross's 2007 offensive performance, as many others were. There is no way I could advocate having any regular bat in the line-up bordering on the Mendoza line. However, Ross recieved many compliments in 2007 for his defensive performance. Apparently, Ross is very good at calling games and handling pitchers.

So as for Amarillo's original post, Ross would be a very good candidate to help Volquez and Bailey out with their development as young pitchers. I really wish Ross could get his average up to around .240, because with all of those walks and all that power, he could be a decent catcher with only a .240 batting average.

AmarilloRed
12-25-2007, 12:09 PM
He did have a career .230 BA in the minors, so a comeback is certainly possible.. I would be willing to tolerate a good defensive catcher who can handle pitchers(even with a low BA) for the short term. In the future, however, I would be looking to get much more out of the catcher position. I will be really interested to see what Ryan Hanigan can show us this year in spring training.

*BaseClogger*
12-25-2007, 12:22 PM
Estrada is a terrible defensive catcher. Career .239 CS% and last year it was .131. Bad Idea...

AmarilloRed
12-25-2007, 12:28 PM
I suppose I was temporarily overcome by his .280 BA last year. Offense isn't everything, however.:rolleyes:

gedred69
12-25-2007, 12:53 PM
I was really discouraged with Ross's 2007 offensive performance, as many others were. There is no way I could advocate having any regular bat in the line-up bordering on the Mendoza line. However, Ross recieved many compliments in 2007 for his defensive performance. Apparently, Ross is very good at calling games and handling pitchers.

So as for Amarillo's original post, Ross would be a very good candidate to help Volquez and Bailey out with their development as young pitchers. I really wish Ross could get his average up to around .240, because with all of those walks and all that power, he could be a decent catcher with only a .240 batting average.

I agree with the thinking that Ross should be good for Volquez and Bailey. However, they have to let him call the game and listen to him. I remember the game last season when Homer feel apart, Ross going to the mound as Homer was about to get in trouble, and Homer blew Ross off. Didn't want to hear what Ross was trying to tell him. He better learn to listen, he's got a lot to learn....

tbball10
12-25-2007, 01:10 PM
I would like to keep Ross for defensive purposes, because I think he is good with the pitching staff, and at worst case offensively, he hits for a low average with some good power. Also, I do not think there is anyway he hits as poorly as last season... Also, I wonder if Dusty Baker will continue to have Valentin catch Bailey...

757690
12-25-2007, 02:44 PM
"I would keep Rick Dempsey as my everyday catcher if he hit .000 all season long."

Earl Weaver.

Catchers are a defensive position, even more so that shortstop. We have been spoiled by Johnny Bench. Ross is a fine everyday catcher.
As stated before, Estrada's defense is terrible, and Barrett is a horrible clubhouse guy. He has been traded twice, just to get him out of the clubhouse.

redsfanmia
12-25-2007, 03:55 PM
Ross is ok he is not going to be an all star but he can drop an occasional bomb and is pretty good defensively.

Stephenk29
12-26-2007, 01:58 AM
Although Ross isn't your ideal catcher for a playoff team, we have more pressing needs I think. Ross is very good defensively, and throws out a pretty high percentage of runners. His offense blows of course, but before we go trade/sign a new catcher it would seem more logical to go get another starter/bullpen guy first. I will agree thought that in the long term Ross needs to be limited to backup.

ChatterRed
12-26-2007, 02:08 AM
Hmmmm. This is a tough one.

Did opposing pitchers figure out Ross and find his weakness? Or was it just an off season for Ross?

Can the Reds afford to find out?

All interesting questions.

Ross is a good defensive catcher.

BLEEDS
12-26-2007, 02:15 PM
Catcher is the least of our worries. I would have been concerned had we not picked up Valentin's option, which was a little surprising to me.

He is a good back-up and can also start when Ross is struggling at the plate.

Let's be concerned with 2009+ for Catcher shall we?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

kaldaniels
12-26-2007, 02:19 PM
Catcher is the least of our worries. I would have been concerned had we not picked up Valentin's option, which was a little surprising to me.

He is a good back-up and can also start when Ross is struggling at the plate.

Let's be concerned with 2009+ for Catcher shall we?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

What in the name of Sam Hill is going on here...is your caps lock not working BLEEDS?

Hondo
12-26-2007, 07:48 PM
I like Jason LaRue.

I know he just signed with the Cardinals but I thought he was a Great Catcher for this team, not perfect but I was a Big Fan of his...

Thanks

gedred69
12-26-2007, 09:18 PM
I like Jason LaRue.

I know he just signed with the Cardinals but I thought he was a Great Catcher for this team, not perfect but I was a Big Fan of his...

Thanks

Any catcher that tries to trap low pitches in the dirt using his mitt like a trash can lid is NOT a good catcher. (That only works when you're a kid trying to catch a mouse).:D

Newman4
12-26-2007, 10:00 PM
I'd keep an eye on Craig Tatum. He has the best catching arm in the system (apparently better than Mesoraco) according to BA and had a good season at High A, albeit at age 24. A good season at AA/AAA could make him a decent choice for 09 at age 26.

AdamDunn
12-26-2007, 10:08 PM
Ross is cheap... the best defensive catcher in the game... and hits for power. More pressing needs elsewhere. Catcher is the last position a team needs to hit. The most important thing for a catcher is defense and Ross has it. Thank god everyone else undervalues the ability to throw out runners and call a game. That's why we have him cheap.

Lockdwn11
12-29-2007, 12:05 PM
Ross is cheap... the best defensive catcher in the game... and hits for power. More pressing needs elsewhere. Catcher is the last position a team needs to hit. The most important thing for a catcher is defense and Ross has it. Thank god everyone else undervalues the ability to throw out runners and call a game. That's why we have him cheap.

Agreed

Orenda
12-29-2007, 12:30 PM
Agreed
I think that is a huge stretch. I'm not sure how you can prove his game calling abilities are superior, and I couldnt notice any marked improvement from the younger pitchers with him behind the dish. He is a good catch and throw guy, but I wouldn't say he is the best defensive catcher in the game let alone the division. Id take Yadier Molina every day of the week over Ross. And yes he hits for power, but that is pretty much it. If Javy and Ross got equal playing time I would bet on Valentine ending up with more RBIs, while Ross would most likely hit more HR's. It looks like Ross finally figured out what so many other players have, that if you can remain relevant by knocking enough balls out of the smallparks, then you can potentially overshadow the larger offensive inefficiencies you may have.

AmarilloRed
12-29-2007, 03:38 PM
Let's not go overboard with Ross. At best he is a mediocre offensive catcher, at worst an embarrasment at the plate. He does have some power, but what good is it if he can't hit the ball. He seems to be a good personal catcher for Arroyo, but I am not sure how that translates to being the best defensive catcher in the game. I think we could find another defensive catcher who can hit better than .203.

redsupport
12-29-2007, 04:14 PM
how about Jesse Gonder?

AdamDunn
12-29-2007, 04:31 PM
I think that is a huge stretch. I'm not sure how you can prove his game calling abilities are superior, and I couldnt notice any marked improvement from the younger pitchers with him behind the dish. He is a good catch and throw guy, but I wouldn't say he is the best defensive catcher in the game let alone the division. Id take Yadier Molina every day of the week over Ross. And yes he hits for power, but that is pretty much it. If Javy and Ross got equal playing time I would bet on Valentine ending up with more RBIs, while Ross would most likely hit more HR's. It looks like Ross finally figured out what so many other players have, that if you can remain relevant by knocking enough balls out of the smallparks, then you can potentially overshadow the larger offensive inefficiencies you may have.

Yadier Molina and David Ross are comparable. Point being, they are TIER A when it comes to defense and the catching position. While Valentin can hit better than Ross (I mean, who can't besides Chad Moeller... sarcastically...) Valentin couldn't throw out a Molina (any Molina) if his life depended on in (sarcastically). I forget the statistic, but there was a statistic out there that showed that Ross saved more runs catching than Valentin gave in batting.

Vada Pinson Fan
12-29-2007, 05:03 PM
Isn't Ryan Hanigan suspended for the 1st 50 games in '08? If not him, who is the Reds catcher that Selig and the boys nailed?

757690
12-29-2007, 05:47 PM
Isn't Ryan Hanigan suspended for the 1st 50 games in '08? If not him, who is the Reds catcher that Selig and the boys nailed?

Ryan Jorganson, who should be known to Redszone members for reasons I am not allowed to mention.

BLEEDS
12-31-2007, 04:33 PM
Ross is cheap... the best defensive catcher in the game... and hits for power. More pressing needs elsewhere. Catcher is the last position a team needs to hit. The most important thing for a catcher is defense and Ross has it. Thank god everyone else undervalues the ability to throw out runners and call a game. That's why we have him cheap.

2,525,000 in 2008.
The Reds have a $3.5 million option for 2009 with a $375,000 buyout

I wouldn't exactly call that CHEAP.

Javier Valentin at $1.35M, that's cheap.

Ross won't be worth $3.5M in 2009 if he bats what he did in 2007.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Edd Roush
12-31-2007, 05:03 PM
Yadier Molina and David Ross are comparable. Point being, they are TIER A when it comes to defense and the catching position. While Valentin can hit better than Ross (I mean, who can't besides Chad Moeller... sarcastically...) Valentin couldn't throw out a Molina (any Molina) if his life depended on in (sarcastically). I forget the statistic, but there was a statistic out there that showed that Ross saved more runs catching than Valentin gave in batting.

I fully intended to bash your post about how David Ross is no where near Yadier Molina, until I actually checked the stats. Yadier hit .275 last year with an OPS of .708. Those are certainly better than Ross's numbers of .203 BA with a .670 OPS in 311 at-bats, but not drastically better. Compare their numbers in 2006. Yadier only hit .216 with an OPS of .596 in 2006 while Ross hit .255 with a .932 OPS in 247 at-bats in 2006. If Ross is really a good defensive catcher and can put up offensive numbers some where between what he did in 2006 and 2007, than I think he will be worth his 3.5 million. But, he will have to prove that the league didn't catch up to him in 2007 and that he can hit above .220 on an annual basis.