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Newman4
01-05-2008, 12:24 PM
With Keppinger's stats from 241 AB last season producing the following .322/.400/.477 line. Also, .362/.421/.565 v. LH and .320/.392/.442 v. LH. Does this make a trade of Gonzalez a proactive move? I would think with his contract somewhat pricey for the Reds, a move would be justified. Perhaps, Gonzalez/Hatteberg combo for more pitching?

BEETTLEBUG
01-05-2008, 01:07 PM
WHERE! TO

Nasty_Boy
01-05-2008, 01:11 PM
The Reds are in trouble if Keppinger is their SS. He's got a great approach at the plate and he destroys LHs, but he is not an everyday SS. His range, glove, and arm are all below average. I'm fine with Kepp at 3rd or 1st but Gonzo is the best option at SS. If Gonzo would be more patient at the plate and improve his OBP this wouldn't even be a conversation.

tomd63
01-05-2008, 01:20 PM
The Reds are in trouble if Keppinger is their SS. He's got a great approach at the plate and he destroys LHs, but he is not an everyday SS. His range, glove, and arm are all below average. I'm fine with Kepp at 3rd or 1st but Gonzo is the best option at SS. If Gonzo would be more patient at the plate and improve his OBP this wouldn't even be a conversation.

Phillips to SS, Keppinger starts at 2B. Still very solid MI defense with much more offense.

Nasty_Boy
01-05-2008, 01:29 PM
Phillips to SS, Keppinger starts at 2B. Still very solid MI defense with much more offense.

They're not gonna move Phillips to SS. Kepp just isn't a middle infielder. You think people complain about Dunn's range, Kepp would be brutal up the middle. And I'm not convinced that Kepp brings that much more offense than Gonzo. Kepp's sample size was very small, and there's a reason it took him so long to get to the big leagues. Listen, I really really like Kepp but I'm not willing to sacrifice defense up the middle.

gedred69
01-05-2008, 01:30 PM
Phillips to SS, Keppinger starts at 2B. Still very solid MI defense with much more offense.

I've wondered about moving Phillips to SS since last year before acquiring Gonzo. I know Phillips sees himself as a SS, and say whatever criticism anyone has about Kepp', you got to wonder what he would be able to do at the plate as an everyday player. Maybe as a lead-off bat? OK, he's not gonna' burn up the base paths, but neither did Pete Rose...

UPRedsFan
01-05-2008, 01:48 PM
Play him at first against left handed pitching and give him spot starts at short, 3b and 2b to give rest to Gonz, Phillips, EE. He's fantastic insurance against injuries to anyone in the infield. But he's not a full time starter otherwise.

Nasty_Boy
01-05-2008, 02:12 PM
Play him at first against left handed pitching and give him spot starts at short, 3b and 2b to give rest to Gonz, Phillips, EE. He's fantastic insurance against injuries to anyone in the infield. But he's not a full time starter otherwise.


I totally agree!

:beerme: :beerme:

Bip Roberts
01-05-2008, 02:17 PM
I think by the middle of next year he might be our starting 3rd baseman. If not that probably means edwin is playing better

Nasty_Boy
01-05-2008, 02:27 PM
If Edwin plays like he did the the last 2 months of the season, Keppinger has no shot to be the starting 3rd baseman. Unless of course Edwin gets moved for pitching.

Bip Roberts
01-05-2008, 02:31 PM
If Edwin plays like he did the the last 2 months of the season, Keppinger has no shot to be the starting 3rd baseman. Unless of course Edwin gets moved for pitching.

Yea if edwin plays like we think he can then Keppinger will have to find another spot.

*BaseClogger*
01-05-2008, 02:31 PM
Play him at first against left handed pitching and give him spot starts at short, 3b and 2b to give rest to Gonz, Phillips, EE. He's fantastic insurance against injuries to anyone in the infield. But he's not a full time starter otherwise.

I agree with this as well. He makes for a good insurance policy if anyone gets hurt. I think he has played some OF in his career too...

tomd63
01-05-2008, 02:51 PM
They're not gonna move Phillips to SS. Kepp just isn't a middle infielder. You think people complain about Dunn's range, Kepp would be brutal up the middle. And I'm not convinced that Kepp brings that much more offense than Gonzo. Kepp's sample size was very small, and there's a reason it took him so long to get to the big leagues. Listen, I really really like Kepp but I'm not willing to sacrifice defense up the middle.

I thought Keppinger did fine at SS last year. Numbers seem to back up that observation. He seems to have done at least as well as Gonzalez, who was a big defensive disappointment to me last year with the glove, in about half the playing time.

NAME GS INN E DP FPCT RF ZR
Keppinger 43 391.2 2 27 .989 4.28 .842
Gonzalez 98 873.2 16 73 .963 4.24 .838


If I could find a taker for Gonzalez, I'd deal him off. Sell him high coming off of his career season with the bat. He's due for a huge decline offensively next season. His lifetime OPS is .694, and his lifetime OBP is under .300. I fear many are going to be disappointed in him next season. Hopefully GABP will continue to pad his offensive numbers and he can show us the defense everyone raved about when we acquired him.

HokieRed
01-05-2008, 03:18 PM
I don't think there's a chance in h--- that Keppinger will displace Edwin. Kepp's a nice player. Edwin will this year, IMHO, emerge as a major talent.

smoke6
01-05-2008, 03:26 PM
I don't think there's a chance in h--- that Keppinger will displace Edwin. Kepp's a nice player. Edwin will this year, IMHO, emerge as a major talent.

There is only so many years we can say that before is needs to ACTUALLY happen.
I like the idea of Kepp at 1st behind Votto (eventually).

Newman4
01-05-2008, 03:51 PM
I thought Keppinger did fine at SS last year. Numbers seem to back up that observation. He seems to have done at least as well as Gonzalez, who was a big defensive disappointment to me last year with the glove, in about half the playing time.

NAME GS INN E DP FPCT RF ZR
Keppinger 43 391.2 2 27 .989 4.28 .842
Gonzalez 98 873.2 16 73 .963 4.24 .838


If I could find a taker for Gonzalez, I'd deal him off. Sell him high coming off of his career season with the bat. He's due for a huge decline offensively next season. His lifetime OPS is .694, and his lifetime OBP is under .300. I fear many are going to be disappointed in him next season. Hopefully GABP will continue to pad his offensive numbers and he can show us the defense everyone raved about when we acquired him.

Nice stats, Tom. I was thinking Gonzalez to the Orioles, myself.

757690
01-05-2008, 04:26 PM
As I have stated before, defense up the middle is a top priority for any team to contend. A .300 hitter will get a hit once every six games more often than a .250 hitter. A solid shortstop will make a a solid play around once every two games if not more often, than a mediocre shortstop. Also, having a weak fielding infield puts more pressure on the pitcher, and lowers the team's overall confidence.

That said, defensive stats are pretty much meaningless, especially in such a small sample size as Gonzalez and Keppinger last year. Anyone who has seen the two play can tell you that Gonzalez is a far better fielder than Keppinger. Gonzalez had a bad year last year, which is understandable considering what he went through personally. His offensive numbers were very strong, until his son became sick. I would wager that he comes back and has an even better year offensively than last. I know he will have a better one defensively.

I really like Keppinger in a role similar to Freel, that is where he is most valuable to the team.

Nasty_Boy
01-05-2008, 04:36 PM
Sometimes stats tell the story and sometimes they don't... Keppinger just doesn't pass the eye test. He has trouble with slow rollers, balls up the middle, and turning the DP. He fields the ball at him very well and he can make the back hand and the long throw across the diamond. He's a good player but he would cost the Reds in the long run at SS.

DannyB
01-05-2008, 05:08 PM
Does he have options? iff so Castro will keep him in AAA.

jmac
01-05-2008, 06:08 PM
WK said the other day after Cantu released that Kepp would get Cantu's AB'S so I assumed he would get some starts at first vs lefties.

tomd63
01-05-2008, 06:11 PM
A .300 hitter will get a hit once every six games more often than a .250 hitter.

OK, but which guy is the better hitter? No way to tell with this information. I'd need to know which one gets on base more, and if one of them out slugs the other.


A solid shortstop will make a a solid play around once every two games if not more often, than a mediocre shortstop.

I'm not quite sure what this means. Are you saying that he turns a ball into an out that the other one would not have?


That said, defensive stats are pretty much meaningless, especially in such a small sample size as Gonzalez and Keppinger last year. Anyone who has seen the two play can tell you that Gonzalez is a far better fielder than Keppinger. Gonzalez had a bad year last year, which is understandable considering what he went through personally. His offensive numbers were very strong, until his son became sick. I would wager that he comes back and has an even better year offensively than last. I know he will have a better one defensively.

You mention that the defensive numbers are meaningless, mostly due to sample size, but yet you want to ignore the fact that his decent offensive numbers, in the same sample size, are the absolute best of his career. Given that, it's a very poor bet that he will improve on that yet again. It could happen, but odds are stacked against you. The smart thing to do would be to sell high on Gonzalez if anyone else out there thinks he can hit a little bit now.

I'm also curious on why his off field situation makes it understandable for his bad year defensively, but yet at the same time he had the best offensive year of his career. Very odd, you'd think it would affect his whole game.

It will be interesting see how Gonzalez does next year. I hope he picks it as advertised out there next season.

ChatterRed
01-05-2008, 06:20 PM
If Votto gets traded, I could see them moving EE to 1B and Keppinger at 3B. Or they just play Kepp at 1B.

EE moving to 1B would remind me of Tony Perez's move.

Vada Pinson Fan
01-05-2008, 08:50 PM
I thought Keppinger did fine at SS last year. Numbers seem to back up that observation. He seems to have done at least as well as Gonzalez, who was a big defensive disappointment to me last year with the glove, in about half the playing time.

NAME GS INN E DP FPCT RF ZR
Keppinger 43 391.2 2 27 .989 4.28 .842
Gonzalez 98 873.2 16 73 .963 4.24 .838


If I could find a taker for Gonzalez, I'd deal him off. Sell him high coming off of his career season with the bat. He's due for a huge decline offensively next season. His lifetime OPS is .694, and his lifetime OBP is under .300. I fear many are going to be disappointed in him next season. Hopefully GABP will continue to pad his offensive numbers and he can show us the defense everyone raved about when we acquired him.


You have to take into account the effect Gonzo's ill son had on his mental state and physical play.

You also believe "He's due for a huge decline offensively next season". It's difficult for me to believe any of the Reds position players "will have a huge decline offensively" b/c half of their games are played at Great American. A very forgiving ballpark that Gonzo liked very well playing in, as you alluded to.

Jeff Keppinger had a heck of a year for the Reds last year. I'm more inclined to think that Keppinger's numbers won't be equal to that of last year based on his entire career. Gonzalez, having his child in better health, would seem to have a better year in store for 2008, at the very least defensively.

Jeff Keppinger is our super-sub and hopefully he stays that way. Keppinger isn't a regular on a contending type team. Jeff is better suited to plug the holes here and there, thereby keeping him fresh.

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 01:02 AM
I'm also curious on why his off field situation makes it understandable for his bad year defensively, but yet at the same time he had the best offensive year of his career. Very odd, you'd think it would affect his whole game.

I agree here. If the mental thing was bothering him, why only his defense? I don't expect his offensive numbers to decline too much. What he did last year seems pretty realistic for him in GABP- low OBP but around 20 homers. If he can turn around his defense then he will be very valueable. However, I'm not as optimistic as most that his defense will improve mostly becuase he is on the wrong side of 30 for a SS. Based on that, I wouldn't mind trading him and his contract if we could get some decent return, but it would really hurt our infield depth. I don't really want to see Juan Castro getting any AB's...

AmarilloRed
01-06-2008, 01:26 AM
You have to take into account the effect Gonzo's ill son had on his mental state and physical play.

You also believe "He's due for a huge decline offensively next season". It's difficult for me to believe any of the Reds position players "will have a huge decline offensively" b/c half of their games are played at Great American. A very forgiving ballpark that Gonzo liked very well playing in, as you alluded to.

Jeff Keppinger had a heck of a year for the Reds last year. I'm more inclined to think that Keppinger's numbers won't be equal to that of last year based on his entire career. Gonzalez, having his child in better health, would seem to have a better year in store for 2008, at the very least defensively.

Jeff Keppinger is our super-sub and hopefully he stays that way. Keppinger isn't a regular on a contending type team. Jeff is better suited to plug the holes here and there, thereby keeping him fresh.

Keppinger does have a career .320 BA in his minor league career over 2000 AB. I fully expect him to continue that at the major league level. He might drop a bit as a hitter, but he should still have a BA of around .300. I do agree that he is better suited as a Super-Sub unless he does show he can consistantly hit like he did last year.

757690
01-06-2008, 02:08 AM
I agree here. If the mental thing was bothering him, why only his defense? I don't expect his offensive numbers to decline too much. What he did last year seems pretty realistic for him in GABP- low OBP but around 20 homers. If he can turn around his defense then he will be very valueable. However, I'm not as optimistic as most that his defense will improve mostly becuase he is on the wrong side of 30 for a SS. Based on that, I wouldn't mind trading him and his contract if we could get some decent return, but it would really hurt our infield depth. I don't really want to see Juan Castro getting any AB's...

I did say that both his offense and defense suffered after his son became ill. Here:

"Gonzalez had a bad year last year, which is understandable considering what he went through personally. His offensive numbers were very strong, until his son became sick."

He had a great six weeks offensively, but really tanked most of the rest of the season, until the final six weeks. In the middle was when he was dealing with his personal problem. This is why I am think he may have an even better year offensively next year.

I do agree that he is a great value and would get a nice return in a trade, but since the Reds have no one to replace him (except Keppinger and Castro), it would be wise to keep him.

wlf WV
01-06-2008, 02:14 AM
Keppinger does'nt belong on todays teams ,he's a 1 tool player ( bat). All he does is make the plays,hustle,and is fundamentally sound.I'll find a place for him on my team....

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 02:36 AM
I do agree that he is a great value and would get a nice return in a trade, but since the Reds have no one to replace him (except Keppinger and Castro), it would be wise to keep him.

If Gonzalez's defense is never going to rebound then Keppinger can certainly replace him...

tomd63
01-06-2008, 09:55 AM
I did say that both his offense and defense suffered after his son became ill. Here:

"Gonzalez had a bad year last year, which is understandable considering what he went through personally. His offensive numbers were very strong, until his son became sick."

He had a great six weeks offensively, but really tanked most of the rest of the season, until the final six weeks. In the middle was when he was dealing with his personal problem. This is why I am think he may have an even better year offensively next year.

Gonzalez missed the following time due to the illness of his son:

4/13-4/17
7/14-7/31
8/15-8/22

His OPS by month.

Mon. AB OPS
Apr. 79 .891
May. 114 .767
Jun. 89 .640
Jul. 33 .560
Aug. 47 1.142
Sep. 31 .762

Lifetime 4002 .694

So much for the GABP effect too:

Hm/Aw AB OPS
Home 207 .749
Away 186 .843

I'm just not seeing it. Just from the transactions where he was on bereavement and the restricted list to be with his son, it appears that his son was ill pretty much all season. Plus Gonzalez absoulutely raked in August between his two most extended absences for his sons illness. It didn't seem to affect his offense last season and GABP was not the reason for his huge offensive increase last season. I can see the ballpark moving his yearly OPS up into the .700s, but I can't believe it will boost him up over .750. I hope not, but I expect he'll put up about a .720 OPS next season. He's an out eating machine.


I do agree that he is a great value and would get a nice return in a trade, but since the Reds have no one to replace him (except Keppinger and Castro), it would be wise to keep him.

Don't forget Brandon Phillips, who could very well be the best all around SS on the Reds roster. Then Keppinger could play second, where the defensive dropoff would not be near as steep.

Degenerate39
01-06-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm not sold on Keppinger as of yet. To me him and Hopper are still pretty big question marks so I think they should both stay on the bench and be used as pinch hitters, defensive replacements and so on. It'll be better defensively if the Reds kept Votto at first, Phillips at second, Gonzo at short, and Edwin at third.

Newman4
01-06-2008, 10:53 AM
The smart thing to do would be to sell high on Gonzalez if anyone else out there thinks he can hit a little bit now.

That sums it all up I think. :beerme:

Dracodave
01-06-2008, 01:32 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Keppinger become the everyday shortstop or the everyday secondbaseman should Gonzo get traded, if we can sell high on his bat to a team that needs a SS..I'd say do it. It's not that I don't appriecate Gonzo or that I overvalue Keppinger. I would just rather see us go with Kepp and get something of return for Gonzo

jimbo
01-06-2008, 02:09 PM
If Gonzalez's defense is never going to rebound then Keppinger can certainly replace him...

Is this idea that Gonzo's defense declined only based on his increase in errors? Errors alone is a poor method of judging defense. Gonzo had a lot on his mind last season with his kid which could explain off some of those errors, but even considering that he and BP still made up one of the best defensive SS-2B combinations in baseball.

No way I replace Gonzo at SS with Keppinger. Actually, I don't think I want Kepp at SS on a long-term basis in any situation. His bat does not make up what he lacks defensively, especially range. I'll take Gonzo's season last year over Keppinger any day of the week. This team is already weak defensively up the corners so staying strong up the middle is a must.

757690
01-06-2008, 02:28 PM
The Reds finally have a solid double play combination in Gonzalez and Phillips and people want to mess it up. Amazing.

First of all. switching Phillips to SS is a great fantasy move, but much more difficult in real life. It requires working with Phillips to adjust to the new position, and working with a new 2B on double plays. The Reds tried it at the end of 06, and based on what they saw, they signed Gonzalez. That says it all.

Phillips is an very good 2B, but will probably be an average SS. Keppinger is a below average 2B, and Gonzalez is a very good SS. Why switch from a very good DP combo to below average one? A few extra hits and a #4 starter (which is what Gonzalez would get)?

A solid double play combination is essential for the Reds to be a contending team, considering the stadium they play in, and the pitching staff they have. A missed DP could easily be a w2 or 3 run homer in a second in GABP and this pitching staff. The Reds are not a team that can afford to give the other team extra outs.

The smartest thing that Krivsky has done is move this team towards being one centered around pitching and defense. Having a solid defense improves the pitching staff, especially one with young arms like Bailey, Vloquez and Cueto. The last thing this team needs is to have these guys afraid to have batters put balls in play.

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 03:32 PM
Is this idea that Gonzo's defense declined only based on his increase in errors? Errors alone is a poor method of judging defense. Gonzo had a lot on his mind last season with his kid which could explain off some of those errors, but even considering that he and BP still made up one of the best defensive SS-2B combinations in baseball.

No way I replace Gonzo at SS with Keppinger. Actually, I don't think I want Kepp at SS on a long-term basis in any situation. His bat does not make up what he lacks defensively, especially range. I'll take Gonzo's season last year over Keppinger any day of the week. This team is already weak defensively up the corners so staying strong up the middle is a must.


NAME GS INN E DP FPCT RF ZR
Keppinger 43 391.2 2 27 .989 4.28 .842
Gonzalez 98 873.2 16 73 .963 4.24 .838


apparently you didn't read this entire thread, as this was posted on page one and although they are small sample sizes, gives you many defensive stats that said Kepp was the better defensive SS in 2007. Then, on page two, I post this:


If he can turn around his defense then he will be very valueable. However, I'm not as optimistic as most that his defense will improve mostly becuase he is on the wrong side of 30 for a SS.

Basically, I'm not as confident as everyone else that his defense will turn around. If that is true, I see Gonzalez as an old, expensive SS that plays average defense and is a below-average hitter. Considering I could get something in return for him, give me the below-average fielder (Keppinger) with the above-average bat...

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 03:40 PM
The Reds finally have a solid double play combination in Gonzalez and Phillips and people want to mess it up. Amazing.

What makes this DP combination solid defensively? Certainly not the defense that Gonzalez displayed last year.


First of all. switching Phillips to SS is a great fantasy move, but much more difficult in real life. It requires working with Phillips to adjust to the new position, and working with a new 2B on double plays. The Reds tried it at the end of 06, and based on what they saw, they signed Gonzalez. That says it all.

Ah, yes, your arguement that us posters are making decisions based on what works for our fantasy team. I think you are right about the decision they made at the end of 2006, but based on what Gonzalez did defensively last year compared to what his rep was coming in, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that decision.


Phillips is an very good 2B, but will probably be an average SS. Keppinger is a below average 2B, and Gonzalez is a very good SS. Why switch from a very good DP combo to below average one? A few extra hits and a #4 starter (which is what Gonzalez would get)?

Once again, what about Gonzalez screams "very good SS" and "very good DP combo"? And you say all we could get is a #4 starter for Gonzalez- sounds GREAT! That is our number one concern right now!


A solid double play combination is essential for the Reds to be a contending team, considering the stadium they play in, and the pitching staff they have. A missed DP could easily be a w2 or 3 run homer in a second in GABP and this pitching staff. The Reds are not a team that can afford to give the other team extra outs.

I agree with all this, but as I have said before- Gonzalez is not what he used to be defensively.


The smartest thing that Krivsky has done is move this team towards being one centered around pitching and defense. Having a solid defense improves the pitching staff, especially one with young arms like Bailey, Vloquez and Cueto. The last thing this team needs is to have these guys afraid to have batters put balls in play.

Again, I agree. However, those young guys are flyball pitchers and I think a great defensive CF would be much more valueable than a great defensive SS. In fact, we don't have any groundball pitchers right now in our rotation. Having said all this I hope AGON goes out there next year and wins a gold glove- I'm just not buying it...

757690
01-06-2008, 04:51 PM
I guess if you think that Gonzalez is no longer a good defensive SS, than there is no reason to keep him. I just don't buy that he is no longer a good defensive SS.

He had a bad year last year, but many very good defensive SS had at least one bad season at around 30 and then rebounded for many more great years. Ozzie Smith, Omar Visquel, Mark Belanger, Luis Aparicio, Derek Jeter, Phil Rizzuto, Barry Larkin, Larry Bowa.

But you could be right, we'll see.

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 05:09 PM
I guess if you think that Gonzalez is no longer a good defensive SS, than there is no reason to keep him. I just don't buy that he is no longer a good defensive SS.

He had a bad year last year, but many very good defensive SS had at least one bad season at around 30 and then rebounded for many more great years. Ozzie Smith, Omar Visquel, Mark Belanger, Luis Aparicio, Derek Jeter, Phil Rizzuto, Barry Larkin, Larry Bowa.

But you could be right, we'll see.

None of those guys ever had as bad a season defensively as AGon had last year in their early 30's and most had either much better range or their range significantly fell off at this age...

jimbo
01-06-2008, 05:45 PM
apparently you didn't read this entire thread, as this was posted on page one and although they are small sample sizes, gives you many defensive stats that said Kepp was the better defensive SS in 2007. Then, on page two, I post this:

Whether I read through the entire thread is irrelevant as it does not change my mind.

I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but zone rating was revised before last season it's the original inventor.


Revised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Zone Rating was invented by John Dewan when he was CEO of Stats Inc. John is now the owner of Baseball Info Solutions, where he has revised the original Zone Rating calculation so that it now lists balls handled out of the zone (OOZ) separately (and doesn't include them in the ZR calculation) and doesn't give players extra credit for double plays (Stats had already made that change). We believe both changes improve Zone Ratings substantially. To get a full picture of a player's range, you should evaluate both his Revised Zone Rating and his plays made out of zone (OOZ).

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/

Now, let's look at the RZR (revised zone rating) of Gonzalez and Keppinger:

Gonzalez .862
Keppinger .845

Among qualifying NL shortstops, Gonzalez ranks 3rd.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B%5D=2&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit

Vada Pinson Fan
01-06-2008, 07:31 PM
Keppinger does have a career .320 BA in his minor league career over 2000 AB. I fully expect him to continue that at the major league level. He might drop a bit as a hitter, but he should still have a BA of around .300. I do agree that he is better suited as a Super-Sub unless he does show he can consistantly hit like he did last year.


I'm sure you've read that it's the rare individual that has his minor league stats transition as well to the major leagues. Pete Rose, for one, always felt that way. I like Jeff Keppinger being a Reds role player but I still maintain Keppinger isn't a regular on a contending type team.

Like Ryan Freel, I don't see Jeff Keppinger able to hold up to the rigors of a full season, year in and year out.

Keppinger having played in very limited time overall has appeared in a total of 33 Games (116AB / .284BA / .317 OBP) with the NY Mets in 2004. Jeff next played in 2006 in the majors for the KC Royals and played in 22 Games (60AB / .267BA / .323OBP).
Then comes last season when Kepp' played in 67 games for the Reds (241AB / .332BA / .400OBP).

For his major league career Keppinger has 1 home run in every 41.7 AB's / while having only 4 SB's in 6 attempts in his entire Major League Career spanning just 122 games. To JK's credit, his BB to K rate is very good at 35 to 25 respectively.

Jeff Keppinger, as you agreed with me, is a super-sub and as shown above, isn't a starting type of player. He had a heck of a year with the Reds last year but that has to be tempered by the other stats he has compiled with the Mets and Royals.

I hope I'm wrong and Jeff Keppinger turns into a star player but realistically, I just don't see it happening. I think Keppinger would be a Tommy Helms/Ron Oester type of 2nd baseman over the length of his career should he be in the bigs as long as Helms and Oester was. I'd rather have a Brandon Phillips/ Brett Boone kind of player to start than I would Helms/Oester/Keppinger, but if that's all I had...
then I have to start him. Otherwise: No.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/keppije01.shtml

tomd63
01-06-2008, 08:43 PM
The Reds finally have a solid double play combination in Gonzalez and Phillips and people want to mess it up. Amazing..

One of which will most likely be one of the worst hitting regulars in the majors next season.


First of all. switching Phillips to SS is a great fantasy move, but much more difficult in real life. It requires working with Phillips to adjust to the new position, and working with a new 2B on double plays. The Reds tried it at the end of 06, and based on what they saw, they signed Gonzalez. That says it all.

Phillips is an very good 2B, but will probably be an average SS. Keppinger is a below average 2B, and Gonzalez is a very good SS. Why switch from a very good DP combo to below average one? A few extra hits and a #4 starter (which is what Gonzalez would get)?..

SS is Brandon Phillips original position. In the Cleveland organization, Phillips was a SS from 1999 to 2002, he was not a fulltime 2B until 2003 with Indians and later at AAA Buffalo after he flopped offensively in the bigs. In 2004 he split time evenly between SS and 2B at AAA. In 2005 he was a AAA SS. Omar Vizquel was the Cleveland SS through 2004, and Johnny Peralta took over fulltime in 2005. So basically Phillips had 5.5 years of professional experience at SS and 1.5 years of professional experience at 2B when he came to the Reds, and some pretty good SS talent in front of him at Cleveland.

Would you care to expand on the Phillips at SS trial at the end of 2006? He was battling a hand injury at the time and the Cardinals tanked and the Reds decided to put off the position switch since they were thrust back into within reach of playoff contention. They did not acquire Gonzalez becuase Phillips failed in the very short time he spent there in Sep. of 2006.

From what we witnessed last season, Phillips could run circles around Gonzalez at SS. He definitely has more range, the hands, and plenty enough arm to play the position.


The smartest thing that Krivsky has done is move this team towards being one centered around pitching and defense. Having a solid defense improves the pitching staff, especially one with young arms like Bailey, Vloquez and Cueto. The last thing this team needs is to have these guys afraid to have batters put balls in play.

How did that work out last season? :) Seriously, defense and pitching is fine, we needed it. We still need lots more of both. But by all accounts, Phillips would be above average defensively and offensively at SS, Keppinger would be average defensively and above average offensively at 2B, and Gozalez will above average (if he returns to form) defensively and below average offensively at SS. The move makes the Reds a better team. Keppinger's bat is one that we can use towards the top of the order, and we currently don't have anyone that fits there now.

AmarilloRed
01-06-2008, 10:12 PM
I'm sure you've read that it's the rare individual that has his minor league stats transition as well to the major leagues. Pete Rose, for one, always felt that way. I like Jeff Keppinger being a Reds role player but I still maintain Keppinger isn't a regular on a contending type team.

Like Ryan Freel, I don't see Jeff Keppinger able to hold up to the rigors of a full season, year in and year out.

Keppinger having played in very limited time overall has appeared in a total of 33 Games (116AB / .284BA / .317 OBP) with the NY Mets in 2004. Jeff next played in 2006 in the majors for the KC Royals and played in 22 Games (60AB / .267BA / .323OBP).
Then comes last season when Kepp' played in 67 games for the Reds (241AB / .332BA / .400OBP).

For his major league career Keppinger has 1 home run in every 41.7 AB's / while having only 4 SB's in 6 attempts in his entire Major League Career spanning just 122 games. To JK's credit, his BB to K rate is very good at 35 to 25 respectively.

Jeff Keppinger, as you agreed with me, is a super-sub and as shown above, isn't a starting type of player. He had a heck of a year with the Reds last year but that has to be tempered by the other stats he has compiled with the Mets and Royals.

I hope I'm wrong and Jeff Keppinger turns into a star player but realistically, I just don't see it happening. I think Keppinger would be a Tommy Helms/Ron Oester type of 2nd baseman over the length of his career should he be in the bigs as long as Helms and Oester was. I'd rather have a Brandon Phillips/ Brett Boone kind of player to start than I would Helms/Oester/Keppinger, but if that's all I had...
then I have to start him. Otherwise: No.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/keppije01.shtml

I think it is pretty clear that Keppinger's year last year was separate from his previous years. He hit .368 at Louisville and then followed it up by hitting .332 in Cincinnati. I think he will be hard pressed to repeat that performance again, but I would not bet against him. The trick will be finding him enough AB's. We already have starters at all 4 infield positions(I am counting Votto as a starter next year), so it will be a struggle for him to get enough playing time. I have seen no evidence that he will be as fragile as Freel on a regular basis. I do not expect him to show the power on a regular basis, but I do expect him to hit for a high BA. He was showing some ability at the end of last year to take a walk, and if he continues to do that he would make an iideal leadoff hitter. I think if he is able to hit .320 in 500 AB this year, he could very well force the Reds to bench one of the starters to get his bat in the lineup.

757690
01-06-2008, 10:26 PM
Re: Keppinger a regular?
Quote:
The Reds finally have a solid double play combination in Gonzalez and Phillips and people want to mess it up. Amazing..

One of which will most likely be one of the worst hitting regulars in the majors next season.


Jason Bartlett
Josh Wilson
Julio Lugo
Tony Pena
Adam Everett
Erick Aybar
Bobby Crosby
Yuniesky Betancourt
Cristian Guzman
Ryan Theriot
Jack Wilson
Stephen Drew
Rafael Furcal
Omar Visquel


These are the shortstops that should have worse offensive years than Gonzalez career averages next year. That would rank him 14th out of 30, if he goes back to having an average year. He's not one of the worst hitting shortstops, let alone one of the worst hitting regualrs.


Quote:
First of all. switching Phillips to SS is a great fantasy move, but much more difficult in real life. It requires working with Phillips to adjust to the new position, and working with a new 2B on double plays. The Reds tried it at the end of 06, and based on what they saw, they signed Gonzalez. That says it all.

Phillips is an very good 2B, but will probably be an average SS. Keppinger is a below average 2B, and Gonzalez is a very good SS. Why switch from a very good DP combo to below average one? A few extra hits and a #4 starter (which is what Gonzalez would get)?..

SS is Brandon Phillips original position. In the Cleveland organization, Phillips was a SS from 1999 to 2002, he was not a fulltime 2B until 2003 with Indians and later at AAA Buffalo after he flopped offensively in the bigs. In 2004 he split time evenly between SS and 2B at AAA. In 2005 he was a AAA SS. Omar Vizquel was the Cleveland SS through 2004, and Johnny Peralta took over fulltime in 2005. So basically Phillips had 5.5 years of professional experience at SS and 1.5 years of professional experience at 2B when he came to the Reds, and some pretty good SS talent in front of him at Cleveland.

Just because it is his original position does not mean it will be an adjustment for him to switch back. The biggest problem is adjusting back to turning the double play from the other side, and learning to work with a new 2B.
He was always considered an offensive SS, and never considered more than a decent defensive SS at best.

Would you care to expand on the Phillips at SS trial at the end of 2006? He was battling a hand injury at the time and the Cardinals tanked and the Reds decided to put off the position switch since they were thrust back into within reach of playoff contention. They did not acquire Gonzalez becuase Phillips failed in the very short time he spent there in Sep. of 2006.

From what we witnessed last season, Phillips could run circles around Gonzalez at SS. He definitely has more range, the hands, and plenty enough arm to play the position.

The decision was not just based on Phillips 3 games at SS in 2006, you are correct. It was based on Phillips past reputation as a SS, and how difficult it would have been for him to switch. It would have been easier and cheaper for the Reds to get a 2B last year instead of a SS. Their decision to get a SS says volumes about what their scouts thought of Phillips as a SS.
Phillips played one game at SS last year? When did you see him "run circles around Gonzalez at SS"? Playing 2b and playing SS are very different. I doubt anyone could look at any 2B and know with confidence that he would be able to play great SS.

Quote:
The smartest thing that Krivsky has done is move this team towards being one centered around pitching and defense. Having a solid defense improves the pitching staff, especially one with young arms like Bailey, Vloquez and Cueto. The last thing this team needs is to have these guys afraid to have batters put balls in play.

How did that work out last season? Seriously, defense and pitching is fine, we needed it. We still need lots more of both. But by all accounts, Phillips would be above average defensively and offensively at SS, Keppinger would be average defensively and above average offensively at 2B, and Gozalez will above average (if he returns to form) defensively and below average offensively at SS. The move makes the Reds a better team. Keppinger's bat is one that we can use towards the top of the order, and we currently don't have anyone that fits there now.

I think the Reds bad defense was one of the major reasons for its poor pitching. Why make it worse this year when they have so many young pitchers?

Just a huge difference of opinion here. Defensively Phillips is an average SS, Keppinger is a below average SS. Gonzalez is an above SS. He was ranked 3rd in the NL last year in range, and that was his worst year. Phillips is an above average 2B and Keppinger is an average with at best. And offensively, Gonzalez is an average SS.

Gonzo- SS and Phillps-2B > Phillips-SS Keppinger-2B

But that is just my opinion.

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 10:35 PM
I think the Reds bad defense was one of the major reasons for its poor pitching. Why make it worse this year when they have so many young pitchers?

that still doesn't change the fact that we have flyball pitchers...

*BaseClogger*
01-06-2008, 10:37 PM
Now, let's look at the RZR (revised zone rating) of Gonzalez and Keppinger:

Gonzalez .862
Keppinger .845

Among qualifying NL shortstops, Gonzalez ranks 3rd.

where would Kepp rank?

EDIT: and didn't Kepp convert more outs in his zone?

757690
01-07-2008, 12:35 AM
that still doesn't change the fact that we have flyball pitchers...

Which explains why Gonzalez did not have that many chances last year.

So are you saying that the Reds pitchers never throw ground balls? I don't know the numbers exactly but the Reds pitchers probably throw around 35% gb. In a full season, that is around 1600 ground balls each year or 10 a game. Yeah, it's not important to have guys that can field when you are only dealing with 1600 ground balls a year or 10 a game.

And the key fact that everyone is forgetting is that Keppinger had never played a full major league season. Everyone wanted Freel in the lineup everyday, until he actually was. Not saying that Keppinger can't handle everyday play, but it seems awful risky to try if you seriously want to compete, especially when there is no backup plan if it fails.

*BaseClogger*
01-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Which explains why Gonzalez did not have that many chances last year.

So are you saying that the Reds pitchers never throw ground balls? I don't know the numbers exactly but the Reds pitchers probably throw around 35% gb. In a full season, that is around 1600 ground balls each year or 10 a game. Yeah, it's not important to have guys that can field when you are only dealing with 1600 ground balls a year or 10 a game.

And the key fact that everyone is forgetting is that Keppinger had never played a full major league season. Everyone wanted Freel in the lineup everyday, until he actually was. Not saying that Keppinger can't handle everyday play, but it seems awful risky to try if you seriously want to compete, especially when there is no backup plan if it fails.

I made that comment because you mentioned that poor SS defense would put more pressure on our young pitchers. My point was that better OF defense would benefit them more than SS defense...

tomd63
01-07-2008, 09:37 AM
Re: Keppinger a regular?

One of which will most likely be one of the worst hitting regulars in the majors next season.


Jason Bartlett
Josh Wilson
Julio Lugo
Tony Pena
Adam Everett
Erick Aybar
Bobby Crosby
Yuniesky Betancourt
Cristian Guzman
Ryan Theriot
Jack Wilson
Stephen Drew
Rafael Furcal
Omar Visquel


These are the shortstops that should have worse offensive years than Gonzalez career averages next year. That would rank him 14th out of 30, if he goes back to having an average year. He's not one of the worst hitting shortstops, let alone one of the worst hitting regualrs.

If Gonzalez reverts back to his career .694 OPS he would have ranked 146 of 162 last season for players who had enough playing time to qualify for the batting title. That puts him in the bottom ten percent. Since SS is typically one the worse hitting positions, he would have been 19 of 26 qualified regular SS. Still a below average hitting SS, which is one of the weakest hitting positions.


Just because it is his original position does not mean it will be an adjustment for him to switch back. The biggest problem is adjusting back to turning the double play from the other side, and learning to work with a new 2B.
He was always considered an offensive SS, and never considered more than a decent defensive SS at best.

2001 BBA Prospect Handbook: #2 Prospect Expos

Brandon has been compared to a young Barry Larkin. He is a high-ceiling middle infielder with a live, athletic body; an above-average shortstop with soft hands, solid range, plus arm strength and superior lateral movement.

2002 BBA Prospect Handbook: #1 Prospect Expos

He's an above average defender at shortstop with soft hands, solid range, superior lateral movement, excellent first-step quickness and a cannon for an arm. He has enough power on his throws to go into the hole and nail runners from short left field.

2002 BBA Prospect Handbook: #1 Prospect Indians

He moved from shortstop in deference to Omar Vizquel. Phillips is a premier athlete who projects as an all-star at either middle-infield position. As a shortstop, Phillips has drawn comparisons to a young Barry Larkin or Derek Jeter. He has average range and plus arm strength at shortstop, and those tools play even better at second base.

There should be no doubt that he could adjust back to short during spring training.


Just a huge difference of opinion here. Defensively Phillips is an average SS, Keppinger is a below average SS. Gonzalez is an above SS. He was ranked 3rd in the NL last year in range, and that was his worst year. Phillips is an above average 2B and Keppinger is an average with at best. And offensively, Gonzalez is an average SS.

Gonzo- SS and Phillps-2B > Phillips-SS Keppinger-2B

But that is just my opinion.

I really don't believe our pitching has improved enough that the difference in above average vs average fielding second basemen is going to make a difference this season. I could definitely live with a plus bat/average glove 2B for a year or two while the young pitching develops and as does our glut of IF prospects. I could see going heavy on the defensive side of things if we were closer to contending and didn't have so many offensive question marks. I just don't think we are close to that yet, and should highly consider selling Gonzalez high since we have Phillips available to back fill at SS.

I agree, difference of opinion that is very difficult to quantify.

Newman4
01-07-2008, 01:09 PM
A few extra hits and a #4 starter (which is what Gonzalez would get)?..

So, I guess the question becomes: Would you trade Gonzalez for a #4 starter? I would.

BEETTLEBUG
01-07-2008, 02:00 PM
Gonzalez for Whom! number 4 whose

757690
01-07-2008, 03:22 PM
So, I guess the question becomes: Would you trade Gonzalez for a #4 starter? I would.

The Average #4 starter in the majors has a 5.02 ERA. Why trade for someone you can pickup as a free agent any day of the week?

757690
01-07-2008, 03:31 PM
I really don't believe our pitching has improved enough that the difference in above average vs average fielding second basemen is going to make a difference this season. I could definitely live with a plus bat/average glove 2B for a year or two while the young pitching develops and as does our glut of IF prospects. I could see going heavy on the defensive side of things if we were closer to contending and didn't have so many offensive question marks. I just don't think we are close to that yet, and should highly consider selling Gonzalez high since we have Phillips available to back fill at SS.

I agree, difference of opinion that is very difficult to quantify.


The fact that the Reds have young pitchers that need to develop is all the more reason to have the best fielding team behind them. Nothing screws up young pitching more, than their belief that they need to strike out every hitter.
A young pitcher that doesn't trust his infield will have a hard time developing into a major league pitcher. Usually the first thing a team does when it has young pitchers that need to develop at the major league level is make sure that they are strong up the middle defensively.

Also, I will gladly wager a friendly bet that Gonzalez has a higher OPS in 08 than he did in 09, and will be in the top 50% of shortstops offensively.

_Sir_Charles_
01-07-2008, 04:47 PM
In my mind, the biggest part of Keppingers game that has people hesitating on making him the starting SS is his stats like range factors and such. Has anybody thought about the fact that the kid has been switched around from position to position all year long? Maybe a stable position will solidify his defense at that ONE position. I know that it always took me several weeks before I got accustomed to a new position in regards to reading the angle of the ball coming off the bat. I fully believe that Keppinger should be the starting SS over AGon. Steady work at ONE position will give him better and quicker reads on the ball and increase his range. His arm is plenty strong enough too. The quickness in turning a double play will also increase with steady work at SS. People keep comparing his short time spent there to Gonzo's long time spent at that position. If Gonzo had been swapped around from position to position his fielding stats would've suffered as well. Kepp's bat is simply too valuable to be sitting on the bench. And one last thing...we're needing a leadoff hitter too. If Hopper isn't the starting CF'er, then who's the leadoff hitter? Kepp is a GREAT alternative to Hopper for leadoff. Although I still love the 1-2 punch of Hopper/Keppinger at the top of the lineup. Our most productive games last year were when they started the order. Just my .02 worth.

BLEEDS
01-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Has anybody thought about the fact that the kid has been switched around from position to position all year long?

NO, it bothers me that he was in the minor leagues for 6 years and never was able to garner a full-time job, but now everyone and their dog wants to because he hit over .330 for a small sample size.

He is what he is - a supersub, who can play full-time in a pinch.
I hope he proves me wrong, but he hasn't yet.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

AmarilloRed
01-07-2008, 08:45 PM
NO, it bothers me that he was in the minor leagues for 6 years and never was able to garner a full-time job, but now everyone and their dog wants to because he hit over .330 for a small sample size.

He is what he is - a supersub, who can play full-time in a pinch.
I hope he proves me wrong, but he hasn't yet.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You cannot assume he is simply a Super-Sub after 1 year, in the same way you cannot assume he is a regular in the same time frame. A great deal will be determined by how well he plays this year. We have all seen that Ryan Freel can not stay healthy enough over 162 games, but there is no evidence that the same could be said about Jeff Keppinger.

gedred69
01-07-2008, 09:32 PM
I see both sides to this debate, maybe I'm just offense-oriented, but I would like to see what Kepp' can do given a regular position to play. I believe he is a hitter, we saw enough last year to encourage that, (he played enough to show his bat isn't a fluke), and when his minor league #'s are looked at, there is no reason to doubt it, especially when considering most baseball people gave him that credit. However, he won a MLB spot on this roster early in ST last year, only to end up injured and DL and in the Minors. If anyone happened to actually be at ST last March you would know he would have come north with the big team. But, can he hold up? Dunno. It may be best suited to see. Besides, who else is going to hit lead-off? The speedy Phillips showed he is suited elsewhere in the line-up. Gonzo sure isn't. That leaves a power hitter who probably is better suited down the line-up as well.

BLEEDS
01-08-2008, 10:16 AM
You cannot assume he is simply a Super-Sub after 1 year, in the same way you cannot assume he is a regular in the same time frame. A great deal will be determined by how well he plays this year. We have all seen that Ryan Freel can not stay healthy enough over 162 games, but there is no evidence that the same could be said about Jeff Keppinger.

Sure I can, based upon his being 28 years old and never having been able to secure a starting job in the Majors.

People saw him play 50/60 games and suddenly a career minor-leaguer is now a candidate to play every day SS, where he's played a total of EIGHT (8) times in his 6 years previous to last year. Ridiculous.

Until he proves he can play 150 games a year in the Majors, I'm going to assume he can't.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

AmarilloRed
01-08-2008, 12:10 PM
Sure I can, based upon his being 28 years old and never having been able to secure a starting job in the Majors.

People saw him play 50/60 games and suddenly a career minor-leaguer is now a candidate to play every day SS, where he's played a total of EIGHT (8) times in his 6 years previous to last year. Ridiculous.

Until he proves he can play 150 games a year in the Majors, I'm going to assume he can't.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

How many opportunities did he get to win a starting job in the majors? He got limited playing action previous to last year. There is no evidence he is a career minor leaguer, and considerable evidence he can be a starting position player. I am not willing to say he is a starting position player yet, but if he continues to hit .320 over 500 ABs this year the Reds will find a spot for him.

wlf WV
01-08-2008, 02:57 PM
My point to begin with could be stated again ,this way. Would Pete Rose make it to the majors if he was in Keppinger's position. Just a thought.

_Sir_Charles_
01-08-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm not saying that he's a automatic starter at SS. I'm saying that nobody has been questioning his hitting skills. They're questioning his fielding skills. But my point was that he's been juggled around the infield for many years now at multiple spots. I fully believe that if the Reds would just settle on one spot and give him regular time there his defensive range would improve dramatically. This combined with the fact that even his mediocre glove work was about on par with Gonzo's last year is enough to warrent giving him a fair shot at the position. I'd be willing to sacrifice a SMALL portion of defense at the beginning of the season in exchange for a solid lead-off hitter. His defense will improve with experience and practice at ONE location. The main reason for the desire for the move is the need for a leadoff hitter. Gonzo isn't one. Hopper is, but I think Bruce will end up getting his spot (probably not out of ST but shortly thereafter). And Bruce isn't a leadoff hitter either. Neither is Phillips, Votto, Griffey, Dunner, EE, or either catcher. That doesn't leave many leadoff options out there does it? Keppinger solves that problem and allows us the freedom to move Gonzo for some prospects or pitching.

Making Keppinger a starter also opens an infield backup position up for Freel. He's MUCH better suited for infield sub than outfield subbing. The OF backup will be Hopper once Bruce gets up full-time. That's a pretty solid line-up IMO.
1B: Votto
2B: Phillips
SS: Keppinger
3B: Encarnacion
RF: Griffey
CF: Bruce (Hopper out of ST)
LF: Dunn
C: Ross
IF-Utility: Freel
OF-Utility: Hopper (Freel? out of ST)
C-Backup: Valentine

This still leaves Hatteberg, Gonzales, Fiorentino?, Castro? coming off the bench. Although I'd be in favor of moving Gonzo. Anybody know what Castro's status is?

BLEEDS
01-08-2008, 04:40 PM
How many opportunities did he get to win a starting job in the majors?

Looks like quite a few. He started the minors - after 4 years in college - in 2002. He sure didn't HIT his way into the Majors now did he?

There is no evidence he is a career minor leaguer,

I disagree. 6 years out of Collegel, and he never FORCED himself onto a Major League roster. 28 years old. That's a career minor leaguer in 99% of people's books.


and considerable evidence he can be a starting position player.

What evidence, exactly? His 60 games in 2007?!?


I am not willing to say he is a starting position player yet, but if he continues to hit .320 over 500 ABs this year the Reds will find a spot for him.

Way to go out on a limb. Same could be said for Norris Hopper.
Unfortunately, barring catastrophic injury, there is no way he's getting 500 AB's this year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

*BaseClogger*
01-08-2008, 05:17 PM
BLEEDS,

have you looked at his minor league stats? It isn't his fault no FO wanted to give him a chance. He is a career .321 hitter in the minors and hit at every level after he was drafted...

BLEEDS
01-08-2008, 05:25 PM
BLEEDS,

have you looked at his minor league stats? It isn't his fault no FO wanted to give him a chance. He is a career .321 hitter in the minors and hit at every level after he was drafted...

I've seen them. How come he couldn't get a job, was Pittsburgh, KC and the Mets loaded at 1b, 2b, SS, 3B, and all 3 OF spots?!?! I could maybe see the Mets, but Pittsburgh and KC were HORRIBLE, I think I could get on there...

For a guy who can play EVERYWHERE, I can't imagine he black-balled himself, for 5 years, and nobody gave him a chance. Give me a break.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-08-2008, 05:36 PM
and hit at every level after he was drafted...

Except the Majors.

Until this year, he hadn't hit over .300 in the Bigs.

Had 116 AB (~30 starts) with the Mets in 04 - .284/.317/.379
Had 60 AB (~20 starts) with KC in 06 - .267/.323/.400

Yes, that is striking evidence that he can play 150 games in the
Majors.

Given that history, 07 looks like more an aberration than anything else.

Hey, I hope he does GREAT and hits .333/.400/.500, then he might EARN himself some full-time PT. I just am not sold yet based on one overachieving year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

*BaseClogger*
01-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Except the Majors.

Until this year, he hadn't hit over .300 in the Bigs.

Had 116 AB (~30 starts) with the Mets in 04 - .284/.317/.379
Had 60 AB (~20 starts) with KC in 06 - .267/.323/.400

Yes, that is striking evidence that he can play 150 games in the
Majors.

Given that history, 07 looks like more an aberration than anything else.

Hey, I hope he does GREAT and hits .333/.400/.500, then he might EARN himself some full-time PT. I just am not sold yet based on one overachieving year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Dude it's 176 atbats and his first time around. That isn't even half of a rookie season. Those stats would look fine for a rookie. Talk about a small sample size...

*BaseClogger*
01-08-2008, 05:40 PM
I've seen them. How come he couldn't get a job, was Pittsburgh, KC and the Mets loaded at 1b, 2b, SS, 3B, and all 3 OF spots?!?! I could maybe see the Mets, but Pittsburgh and KC were HORRIBLE, I think I could get on there...

For a guy who can play EVERYWHERE, I can't imagine he black-balled himself, for 5 years, and nobody gave him a chance. Give me a break.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

OK so the Pirates and Royals are bad at judging talent. Thanks for the arguement! ;)

Bip Roberts
01-08-2008, 06:20 PM
Pirates and Royals have made a lot of great judgments in talent over the years thats for sure!

Vada Pinson Fan
01-08-2008, 09:35 PM
You cannot assume he is simply a Super-Sub after 1 year...

Yes I can! :p: J/K

AmarilloRed
01-08-2008, 09:59 PM
Yes I can! :p: J/K

If his BA drops to .280 this year, then it is fair to consider him a Super-Sub. All he did last year was hit for average, hit with some power, and get on base. He obviously was last year an ideal lead-off hitter.He not only hit .332 in Cincinnati, but he hit .368 in Louisville. For whatever reason, he seemed to put everything together last year. I am not quite ready yet to trade either Encarcion or Gonzalez(at this point) to give Jeff Keppinger a starting spot in the Reds lineup. I am prepared to let him play quite a bit and give him the chance to prove he can be a regular starting position player, and show that last year was not a fluke. He may yet prove to be the Super-Sub that all of you have pigeonholed him as, but he should at least be given a fair chance to prove that he can be much more than that.

BLEEDS
01-09-2008, 01:48 PM
Dude it's 176 atbats and his first time around. That isn't even half of a rookie season. Those stats would look fine for a rookie. Talk about a small sample size...


Exactly my point, if he's so darn good, why couldn't he stick around a little longer in the Majors?!?!

He had a small sample size in 2007 as well, playing SS - a position he hadn't played but 8 times in both the Minors/Majors in 6 Years - for a guy who was on leave.

Like I said, if he could have hit .300+ before this, he would of. There is a REASON he stayed in the minors with a couple random call-ups to the Majors, for over 5 years.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-09-2008, 01:56 PM
All he did last year was hit for average, hit with some power, and get on base. He obviously was last year an ideal lead-off hitter.He not only hit .332 in Cincinnati, but he hit .368 in Louisville.

Are you just making stuff up now??!! LEAD-OFF HITTER? Let me guess, because his BA was high, he should lead off. WHEN DID HE LEAD OFF in 2007?!?!?! If ANYTHING, he's an ideal #2 guy - good eye, patient, doesn't strike out, doesn't hit for power, etc, etc...




For whatever reason, he seemed to put everything together last year. I am not quite ready yet to trade either Encarcion or Gonzalez(at this point) to give Jeff Keppinger a starting spot in the Reds lineup. I am prepared to let him play quite a bit and give him the chance to prove he can be a regular starting position player, and show that last year was not a fluke. He may yet prove to be the Super-Sub that all of you have pigeonholed him as, but he should at least be given a fair chance to prove that he can be much more than that.

I can agree with that. FINALLY!! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

AmarilloRed
01-11-2008, 10:50 PM
Are you just making stuff up now??!! LEAD-OFF HITTER? Let me guess, because his BA was high, he should lead off. WHEN DID HE LEAD OFF in 2007?!?!?! If ANYTHING, he's an ideal #2 guy - good eye, patient, doesn't strike out, doesn't hit for power, etc, etc...




I can agree with that. FINALLY!! ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

He had an OBP of .400 last year. This was not only due to his high BA, but late in the season he also learned to take a walk. You want your lead-off hitter to not only hit for a high BA, but have the ability to be patient at the plate and take walks. He may not have been a lead-off hitter last year, but it is something that should be seriously considered if he continues to have a high OBP.

Bip Roberts
01-11-2008, 10:59 PM
I wouldnt be upset with him leading off just because of the home run threats we have through out our line up