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View Full Version : Redszone Community Prospect vote #25



dougdirt
01-07-2008, 01:03 PM
Vote for the player who you think is the Reds #25 prospect (the best prospect who is not yet on the list). We will go with this as far as you guys want to take it.

I will post a new list every 2 days with 10-15 options to vote on.

If you feel like making an argument on why a guy should be voted here, feel free to vote and state why you voted for that player.

If there is someone that is not currently listed as an option to vote on, vote for 'other' then just state who you want to vote for in the thread.

If there is anyone you would like to see as an option on the next poll, just say so and if they garner enough support, they will be placed on the next poll. Guys with the lowest amount of votes will usually be removed for the next few guys who were talked about in the previous thread.

Player(s) who recieved 0 votes last round and will go back into rotation - Jose Castro, Zach Cozart, Chris Heisey and Jordan Smith.

Back onto the poll: Sean Henry and Juan Rafael.


Prospect 1 - Jay Bruce
Prospect 2 - Homer Bailey
Prospect 3 - Johnny Cueto
Prospect 4 - Joey Votto
Prospect 5 - Todd Frazier
Prospect 6 - Drew Stubbs
Prospect 7 - Matt Maloney
Prospect 8 - Josh Roenicke
Prospect 9 - Travis Wood
Prospect 10 - Devin Mesoraco
Prospect 11 - Kyle Lotzkar
Prospect 12 - Danny Dorn
Prospect 13 - Sean Watson
Prospect 14 - Carlos Fisher
Prospect 15 - Juan Francisco
Prospect 16 - Neftali Soto
Prospect 17 - Brandon Waring
Prospect 18 - Adam Rosales
Prospect 19 - Tyler Pelland
Prospect 20 - Daryl Thompson
Prospect 21 - Pedro Viola
Prospect 22 - Chris Valaika
Prospect 23 - Sam Lecure
Prospect 24 - Marcus McBeth

camisadelgolf
01-07-2008, 01:57 PM
Once again, I'm going with Justin Turner.

AmarilloRed
01-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Justin Turner had a a good BA, a good OBP, and can steal a base. I'm going with him.

kheidg-
01-07-2008, 04:21 PM
Not saying that I would vote for him, but after the conversation last vote I'm surprised Fiorentino wasn't added...

Mario-Rijo
01-07-2008, 06:09 PM
I voted Turner although not real inspired at this point with what's left. There are some guys I don't know much about which could be a part of the issue.

Doug could you please add Alexander Smit next go around, somehow I thought he had already been voted in but I guess not. IMO he should have already been in ahead of all these guys remaining.

dougdirt
01-07-2008, 06:14 PM
Not saying that I would vote for him, but after the conversation last vote I'm surprised Fiorentino wasn't added...

Thats my bad.... but that is also why there is the other option. He will be added to the next one.


I voted Turner although not real inspired at this point with what's left. There are some guys I don't know much about which could be a part of the issue.

Doug could you please add Alexander Smit next go around, somehow I thought he had already been voted in but I guess not. IMO he should have already been in ahead of all these guys remaining.

He will be on.

Kc61
01-07-2008, 07:10 PM
I'm voting for Reed, but I'm ok with Turner here. We know what kind of player he is, a leader, scrappy. He showed skills last year so he's ok at 25.

As for Dickerson, though, he struck out 37 percent of the time as a veteran in AAA with a sub .800 OPS. In this day of 5-man benches and 12 pitchers, I don't know if he can stick in the majors as simply a defensive specialist outfielder. You'd love to see an athlete like Dickerson put it all together but he has to hit more.

OnBaseMachine
01-07-2008, 08:04 PM
I'll go with Ramon Ramirez. I liked what I saw of him in a Louisville archived game I watched, plus he really took off after he moved to the bullpen.

gedred69
01-07-2008, 08:33 PM
Looking at the list 1-25, it will be interesting to see in 2 years, how many of these guys have made it or at least shown they WILL make it. IMO after the 1st 5, the list is a questionable as to where certain players belong #-wise. (A lot of voting from the heart). Outside of Dayton and Louisville, I wonder how many responders have actually seen players at Billings, Sarasota, Chattanooga play enough to be able to evaluate intangibles that might not show up on a stat sheet.

mlbfan30
01-07-2008, 11:36 PM
I made an argument for Dickerson and my comp froze. The basic idea was the even if he's below replacement offensively, he'll still be above in defense.

A comp is Corey Patterson who has similar defensive skills. Dickerson is better getting BBs but Patterson is better in power and SB by a slim margin. Dickerson's career OPS is .758 while Patterson's is .712 with a career 83 OPS+.

Patterson has been good enough to be an everyday starter for his entire career. What makes Dickerson so bad that Patterson is considered a starter and Dickerson as a 5th OF at best. It's not the K rate.

Dickerson won't make the team, yet Hopper is considered a 4th OF and many fans want him to start. Hopper has a .678 OPS compared to .758 for Dickerson. They both have the same speed and the same fielding ability.

Dickerson is good enough to be a starter and not be a wasted roster spot. He might be a little below avg offensively, but well above defensively and could be an AVG CF.

Will M
01-07-2008, 11:59 PM
Looking at the list 1-25, it will be interesting to see in 2 years, how many of these guys have made it or at least shown they WILL make it. IMO after the 1st 5, the list is a questionable as to where certain players belong #-wise. (A lot of voting from the heart). Outside of Dayton and Louisville, I wonder how many responders have actually seen players at Billings, Sarasota, Chattanooga play enough to be able to evaluate intangibles that might not show up on a stat sheet.

I have yet to vote for anyone who hasn't had success at AA. It is a long way from Billings to Cincinnati. Guys like Dickerson or Pelland may be role players at best in the bigs but they will get a shot and some of the guys already on our list will never see the bigs.

kheidg-
01-08-2008, 12:21 AM
I have yet to vote for anyone who hasn't had success at AA. It is a long way from Billings to Cincinnati. Guys like Dickerson or Pelland may be role players at best in the bigs but they will get a shot and some of the guys already on our list will never see the bigs.

I agree with you, I think either Dickerson or Gardner are both good choices here...

corkedbat
01-08-2008, 12:57 AM
Not ready to vote for him yet, but Craig Tatum is another name you might consider adding in the next couple of rounds

Mario-Rijo
01-08-2008, 01:19 AM
I made an argument for Dickerson and my comp froze. The basic idea was the even if he's below replacement offensively, he'll still be above in defense.

A comp is Corey Patterson who has similar defensive skills. Dickerson is better getting BBs but Patterson is better in power and SB by a slim margin. Dickerson's career OPS is .758 while Patterson's is .712 with a career 83 OPS+.

Patterson has been good enough to be an everyday starter for his entire career. What makes Dickerson so bad that Patterson is considered a starter and Dickerson as a 5th OF at best. It's not the K rate.

Dickerson won't make the team, yet Hopper is considered a 4th OF and many fans want him to start. Hopper has a .678 OPS compared to .758 for Dickerson. They both have the same speed and the same fielding ability.

Dickerson is good enough to be a starter and not be a wasted roster spot. He might be a little below avg offensively, but well above defensively and could be an AVG CF.

That's why there is 2 sides to every coin, stats aren't enough to understand the differences in those 3 players. You have to look at why those guys are putting up the #'s that they are and how their deficiencies translate to the bigs, that is the scouting side of it.

I don't know for sure about Corey Patterson but my guess is that his problem is something that can be fixed but he just hasn't been able to make the proper adjustments (i.e plate discipline, pitch recognition, holes in his swing etc.) for whatever reason. Whereas Dickerson's problem seem to be less overall defiencies but one big deficiency that cannot be corrected perse.

It has been alledged at some point that Dickerson has below avg bat speed, and that my friend is a huge problem that cannot necc. be overcome by making some sort of adjustment. Sure he could likely minimize it by becoming ultra selective, being excellent with his pitch recognition, being extremely well prepared, keep his swing as short and compact as possible w/o losing too much pop and the like but he ultimately is handicapped to begin with.

Hopper is similiar to Dickerson in that he lacks a certain talent which is raw power. However the difference is that Hopper doesn't necc. need power to be a productive piece of a puzzle and unlike Dickerson his talent can be improved albeit not by much. The thing about Hopper is that if he could sharpen some of his other skills (plate discipline) and work the count more and take some BB's he becomes even more valuable.

One guy has below avg skills (Patterson), and the other (Dickerson) has below avg talent. Skills can be sharpened, talent is what it is. Hopper is sorta in between.

BigRed07
01-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Only 1 outfielder in the Reds system had more errors than Dickerson (11) and that was Szymanski (13). Hopper made 1 error in 190+ chances in the big leagues. I think I would take Hopper over Dickerson or Patterson.

dougdirt
01-08-2008, 01:59 AM
Only 1 outfielder in the Reds system had more errors than Dickerson (11) and that was Szymanski (13). Hopper made 1 error in 190+ chances in the big leagues. I think I would take Hopper over Dickerson or Patterson.

Errors are a fairly poor way of evaluating defense. Some players have a lot more range, therefore make more plays on balls than others, which could lead to more errors, but likely more outs.

BigRed07
01-08-2008, 02:09 AM
I agree with you on that, but 11 errors won't win you any Gold Gloves either. Would you say that Dickerson is a better defensive outfielder than Hopper?

AmarilloRed
01-08-2008, 02:28 AM
Errors are a fairly poor way of evaluating defense. Some players have a lot more range, therefore make more plays on balls than others, which could lead to more errors, but likely more outs.

Range Factor might be a good compromise. Is there some way to determine the RF of Chris Dickerson? I have noticed that only MLB players seem to have a RF stat, and I am not sure if they track that statistic in the minors.

dougdirt
01-08-2008, 02:30 AM
I agree with you on that, but 11 errors won't win you any Gold Gloves either. Would you say that Dickerson is a better defensive outfielder than Hopper?

Yes, I would.

dougdirt
01-08-2008, 02:31 AM
Range Factor might be a good compromise. Is there some way to determine the RF of Chris Dickerson? I have noticed that only MLB players seem to have a RF stat, and I am not sure if they track that statistic in the minors.

There used to be a site that did it, but range factor is actually still a pretty poor stat unless you are trying to compare two players from the same team at the same position.

Danny Serafini
01-08-2008, 10:06 AM
I went with Janish, not because I believe he has much of an upside, but because I feel he's the safest bet to actually make it to the Major Leagues. I fully expect him to see some time as a spare glove in Cincinnati this year. I don't expect his bat to ever be more than Castroesque, but if any infielder goes down (and one will) he's going to get the callup.

Kc61
01-08-2008, 11:13 AM
I went with Janish, not because I believe he has much of an upside, but because I feel he's the safest bet to actually make it to the Major Leagues. I fully expect him to see some time as a spare glove in Cincinnati this year. I don't expect his bat to ever be more than Castroesque, but if any infielder goes down (and one will) he's going to get the callup.


I think Janish is a good pick here. This poll is very stats driven so it makes sense he would fall, he had some poor offensive numbers last year, but my guess is the Reds internally have him higher on their list.

Obviously an excellent fielder, Janish played last year as a 24 year old. At AA he had an OBP of .358. He had 54 Ks in 324 at bats, with no power. One could argue that, since he hits so many balls in play, if his "luck" factor improved he could have some decent seasons as a backup infielder. If he gets his walks up a bit more, that would help too.

Janish didn't do as well at AAA. But he is still only 25 and perhaps next year he will adjust to AAA pitching.

Minor league stats often don't tell the whole story. When a utility type player can keep the ball in play offensively, better things can happen for him.

gedred69
01-08-2008, 09:52 PM
I think Janish is a good pick here. This poll is very stats driven so it makes sense he would fall, he had some poor offensive numbers last year, but my guess is the Reds internally have him higher on their list.

Obviously an excellent fielder, Janish played last year as a 24 year old. At AA he had an OBP of .358. He had 54 Ks in 324 at bats, with no power. One could argue that, since he hits so many balls in play, if his "luck" factor improved he could have some decent seasons as a backup infielder. If he gets his walks up a bit more, that would help too.

Janish didn't do as well at AAA. But he is still only 25 and perhaps next year he will adjust to AAA pitching.

Minor league stats often don't tell the whole story. When a utility type player can keep the ball in play offensively, better things can happen for him.

Anybody who attended ST in "07 would tell you the Reds sure played him alot. Janish started or played significant innings in the 4 games I went to. Maybe they were just giving him another shot, or maybe they see something they like....Dunno.

gedred69
01-08-2008, 09:55 PM
I have yet to vote for anyone who hasn't had success at AA. It is a long way from Billings to Cincinnati. Guys like Dickerson or Pelland may be role players at best in the bigs but they will get a shot and some of the guys already on our list will never see the bigs.

Can we take this to mean you voted for Dorn fairly high up? I sure did. I have a couple of friends who played Minor League ball, and they both say that AA is the make or break point. If you are successful at AA, you've got the talent to play MLB. Then, it becomes a mental question of do you want it bad enough to focus your life around making the Big Leagues.

Ron Madden
01-09-2008, 03:58 AM
I have yet to vote for anyone who hasn't had success at AA. It is a long way from Billings to Cincinnati. Guys like Dickerson or Pelland may be role players at best in the bigs but they will get a shot and some of the guys already on our list will never see the bigs.

:thumbup: Thank You.

There are many good reasons to love this poll, there are just as many reasons to take it with a grain of salt.

I see no harm in having fun with it but let's hope nobody takes it as a depth chart.

;)

bearcatfan24
01-09-2008, 08:40 AM
How does Marcus McBeth still count as a prospect? He has been in the the majors and is 28

camisadelgolf
01-09-2008, 09:43 AM
How does Marcus McBeth still count as a prospect? He has been in the the majors and is 28

He still qualifies as a rookie. Fwiw, he didn't start pitching until relatively recently.

RedsManRick
01-09-2008, 09:59 AM
How does Marcus McBeth still count as a prospect? He has been in the the majors and is 28

He won't be 28 until August. But the real issue is that he still qualifies for a rookie and has just 163 professional innings under his belt. Compare that to say, Tyler Pelland (494 IP), Homer Bailey (353 IP), Matt Maloney (376.1), or Johnny Cueto (348.1).

His age is certainly the #1 factor in why he's ranked where he is, but it would be wrong to assume that he's not going to have a decent major league career just because he got a late start as a pitcher.