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View Full Version : Purported Red-Bedard offers/rumors, from the ORG...



BLEEDS
01-10-2008, 12:16 PM
More from MLBTradeRumors.com -
Quote:
UPDATE, 1-09-08 at 9:07pm: Rosenthal checks in with an update. If the Mariners would give up Chris Tillman, they could have a done deal. Baseball Prospectus' Kevin Goldstein ranks the 19 year-old righty as Seattle's second best prospect, giving him a number two starter ceiling. Rosenthal confirms that Jones is the centerpiece, while George Sherrill and Carlos Triunfel are in play.

Meanwhile, Jason Churchill of Prospect Insider says on the right-hand sidebar of this page that the Reds might step up their offer in an attempt to make a late play. He thinks they could give up Homer Bailey, Joey Votto, Johnny Cueto, and a fourth player, which would be absurd.
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Here's the Prospect Insider story with new info:

Quote:
I am hearing that the Cincinnati Reds might be falling for this "M's-Orioles Trade Talks Heating Up" thing and might have internally agreed to include Homer Bailey, Joey Votto, Johnny Cueto and a fourth player, possibly a young player from their 25-man roster.

That deal, depending on the fourth player, might be enough to trump any deal the Seattle Mariners are willing to make with Baltimore.

Update: The player Baltimore is asking for as the fourth player is thought to be 3B Edwin Encarnacion. In order for this to make any sense, the O's would have to trade current 3B Melvin Mora, perhaps back to the Reds to give Cincy a starter at the hot corner. But Mora is due $16.5 million over the next two seasons and would have to waive a no-trade clause.

The Reds would want cash to be included, and are almost certain to ask for a little bit more in terms of talent - perhaps a lower level prospect to offset the Mora-Encarnacion thing, or, if Mora is not of interest, even for a low salary, Baltimore may have to toss the Reds a bone.
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Bailey, Cueto, Votto, and EdE

That's freakin' HIGHWAY ROBBERY!!!!

I would be Screaming from the Rafters if we "JUST" traded Bailey, Cueto and Votto for him.
Unless he signed a 2+year extension - probably have to be 4 to Sedate me - I don't like it ONE BIT.

I'm the only guy who seems to value Votto and didn't want him traded, but to even INFER that they might include EdE is OUT-RAGEOUS!!! Melvin Mora? EXPENSIVE, OLD, etc...

ME NO LIKEY!!
:bang: :cry: :angry: :confused: :all_cohol: :explode: :yikes: :runawaycr: :dunno: :rant:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Hey Meat
01-10-2008, 12:20 PM
That trade had better not happen. If it does,look forward to a LONG year.

CarolinaRedleg
01-10-2008, 12:21 PM
That is entirely too much to pay to rent a player for a couple of years. Yes, the top of the pitching staff would be improved, but with EE, Votto and Hamilton gone, the offense is significantly gutted. Add in the possibility of what Bailey and Cueto could become, and it's clear that kind of trade would be about as one-sided as any in recent history.

Pass.

BigREDSfaninKY
01-10-2008, 12:21 PM
I hope to God Krivsky isn't that stupid to trade away Bailey, Cueto, Votto and a 4th (possibly EdE?). I hope it's only a writer's opinion and not something he heard from a Reds source. If that's what it takes to get Bedard, let the M's have him.

HokieRed
01-10-2008, 12:29 PM
I almost hope it happens so that we can justify firing Wayne and Dusty and starting over, maybe bringing back a real GM, Dan O'Brien.

Bip Roberts
01-10-2008, 12:31 PM
Krivsky isnt stupid, he would not make that deal unless ownership is giving him the ok to have like 120 million payroll.

HokieRed
01-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Krivsky has kind of a track record of overpaying: Cormier, the Kearns-Lopez deal, Stanton, Castro, David Ross, arguably Gonzalez, maybe Cordero.

Bip Roberts
01-10-2008, 12:44 PM
Krivsky has kind of a track record of overpaying: Cormier, the Kearns-Lopez deal, Stanton, Castro, David Ross, arguably Gonzalez, maybe Cordero.

and has a track record of underpaying

SultanOfSwing
01-10-2008, 12:45 PM
If this proposal is anything close to what the Reds are actually offering (which I seriously doubt) than it might be for a lot more than Bedard. I could see Roberts, a solid reliever (salary relief), and a prospect coming back the Reds way, with the Reds sending an extra C prospect or two.

It could work. Roberts could move to 1st or 3rd and the bullpen would be strengthened. Actually with Roberts included the offense may not really see a drop-off (assuming Votto AND EE aren't included).

Obviously, this all depends on what the Mariners are really offering, which I doubt is as high as reported.

tbball10
01-10-2008, 12:55 PM
Krivsky has kind of a track record of overpaying: Cormier, the Kearns-Lopez deal, Stanton, Castro, David Ross, arguably Gonzalez, maybe Cordero.

we gave up essentially nothing for castro and ross.

Bip Roberts
01-10-2008, 12:58 PM
we gave up essentially nothing for castro and ross.

hes talking money

Prf15
01-10-2008, 01:06 PM
HAX PLX BAN

podgejeff_
01-10-2008, 01:33 PM
I swear, if that deal goes down, then any progress this club has made is instantly gone. We are not the Yankees. We cannot afford to just buy FAs every year to fill holes.

Cueto, Bailey, and Votto would be far too much. Adding EE to that is just ridiculous. Seriously, if Krivsky's that stupid just pay me a whole lot less money and I'll GM the Reds. I promise that I can't possibly do any more harm than that deal.

BearcatShane
01-10-2008, 01:51 PM
That deal would never happen, Krivsky isn't that stupid.

757690
01-10-2008, 02:26 PM
I would relax. This is just a rumor with no sources named, from a guy who writes a blog about the Mariners. Remember when another similar guy said that the Reds were offering Bruce and the that turned out to be completely wrong?

John Fay, a real reporter, has been reporting all along that the only offer he heard about coming from the Reds for Bedard was Votto and a bunch of second tier prospects. Which makes sense. Votto is > or= to Adam Jones, and Sherrill and Carlos Triunfel are second tier guys.

Fay has also reported that WK is really hesitant to give up even one of four young ptichers, let alone two.

This rumor has less credibility than Rafael Palmeiro statement to Congress.

757690
01-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Krivsky has kind of a track record of overpaying: Cormier, the Kearns-Lopez deal, Stanton, Castro, David Ross, arguably Gonzalez, maybe Cordero.

All of those, except the Kearns-Lopez deal were signings, not trades. Apples and oranges.

All of WK's trades have worked out well, even the Kearns-Lopez one...kinda.

Bigredfan#1
01-10-2008, 02:49 PM
I would not give Bailey and Cueto in any deal Bedard, way, way too much.

IrishDavidKY
01-10-2008, 03:03 PM
I can't see WK pulling off this trade. This has all the sounds of a fantasy baseball GM trade proposal.

BLEEDS
01-10-2008, 03:13 PM
one person suggested that this trade would be basically two trades:

EdE for Mora

Bailey, Cueto, Votto for Bedard

IMO, the MOST I could do was:

Cueto, Votto, EdE, FODDER - (1 maybe 2 non-top 10 Minor League prospect(s))
FOR
Bedard, Mora, $10M Cash, AA Prospect.

I REALLY don't want to give up Votto, but if I had to - to get a #2 SP - then I would make sure I keep Bailey instead of Cueto.

Then I MIGHT be able to sleep at night, and wake up a Reds fan the next day.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Strider
01-10-2008, 03:15 PM
There is apparently a fine line between fantasy baseball and nightmare baseball.

*BaseClogger*
01-10-2008, 03:54 PM
lots of negative vibes about fantasy baseball on this board...

HeatherC1212
01-10-2008, 04:57 PM
I'm all for playing fantasy baseball but this trade idea is a nightmare. I think that's where the negativity is coming in, LOL :laugh:

SMcGavin
01-10-2008, 05:18 PM
Krivsky has kind of a track record of overpaying: Cormier, the Kearns-Lopez deal, Stanton, Castro, David Ross, arguably Gonzalez, maybe Cordero.

Krivsky has a track record of giving up no players of consequence. Hamilton was the first guy who could be considered a building block type guy that WK has traded. If you are talking about free agent dollars, maybe he overpaid for a few guys, but WK is not an idiot and Cueto, Bailey, and Votto for Bedard is crazy talk and does not fit the M.O. that WK has shown thus far.

Dracodave
01-10-2008, 05:24 PM
My train of thoughts is that it's a Indians blog, who are probably trying to generate some heat for Ohio sports right now because neither team is in the running for anything big. Neither Ohio team is really trying for Santana to grab headlines, so it's a headliner grabber cause people will see Reds+Bedard/Huge Deal.\


Reds To Stand Pat On Rotation?
The Cincy Enquirer's John Fay thinks the Reds are backing off on Erik Bedard as well as the second-tier free agent pitchers. He's talked to some baseball people on the topic and believes the price is too high for the Reds in any case.

Honestly they're not in that bad of shape with Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, and Matt Belisle.

Mr.MojoRisin
01-10-2008, 07:36 PM
We need to hang on to the good players we have. Letting Encarnacion go would be stupid.

fewfirstchoice
01-10-2008, 07:49 PM
Bailey,Votto,Cueto,and EE is way to much to pay for Bedard.I could see a deal of Bailey or Cueto,Votto or EE,and a guy like Stubbs or Woods.Thats 2 great young players and one good young guy.I could also see a deal like Votto,Bailey,EE,and the other 2 for Bedard, Mora(and about 8 mil.) plus a reliever like Walker of Bradford.In my opinion that is plentys enough to give for Bedard.If the Os dont agree I say move on.

TheBigLebowski
01-10-2008, 08:14 PM
By gravy, if that deal happened, I might just give up rooting for the Reds altogether. Holy cow.

AmarilloRed
01-10-2008, 09:25 PM
I wouldn't expect Krivsky to go for that deal. He seems very high on our young pitchers, and the possibility of trading Votto decreased when we traded Hamilton. I think we need to upgrade our starting pitching, but I would start looking into reasonable trades that can be made.

lo ryder
01-10-2008, 10:02 PM
All of those, except the Kearns-Lopez deal were signings, not trades. Apples and oranges.

All of WK's trades have worked out well, even the Kearns-Lopez one...kinda.

I am curious as to how this trade has kinda worked out. The Nat's received 2 everday players and the Redlegs 2 on the DL. I would take Kearns over Freel in a platoon or starting position.

I would like the logic behind this being a positive trade. Thanks.

jmac
01-10-2008, 10:58 PM
This deal would be tooo much for Bedard as mentioned.
In fact as someone said, Twins would probably be on phone to reds as that would be better than anything offered for Santana.
Try for a lesser deal to get Lee/Blanton and we will be alright.

HokieRed
01-11-2008, 12:13 AM
lo ryder, I certainly agree with the sentiment of your request that 757690 make it clearer how the Kearns-Lopez trade has "kinda" worked out. We've had absolutely no major league value of any kind from that trade to this point--in fact, we've had disvalue, most of it coming from Majewski. Wayner then compounded his poor trade by giving away the best player involved, Brendan Harris, as he had earlier given away Cody Ross for nothing. Then we should mention the Justin Germano for Rheal Cormier deal. Does anyone seriously doubt that Germano would be a very similar rotation option to Josh Fogg, whose pricetag seems to be about 7 million per year? So that's Germano's real value to the Reds--i.e. what it would cost to replace what he gives you. So Kearns, Lopez, Harris, Ross, and Germano have gone out of the organization for, as yet, no return, or negative return, and yet we're supposed to believe all Wayne's deals have been good.

HokieRed
01-11-2008, 12:25 AM
Let's add Medlock to the guys who have been dealt for little or no return.

Bip Roberts
01-11-2008, 12:30 AM
Its hard to get people to understand things they just refuse to accept

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
01-11-2008, 12:46 AM
lo ryder, I certainly agree with the sentiment of your request that 757690 make it clearer how the Kearns-Lopez trade has "kinda" worked out. We've had absolutely no major league value of any kind from that trade to this point--in fact, we've had disvalue, most of it coming from Majewski. Wayner then compounded his poor trade by giving away the best player involved, Brendan Harris, as he had earlier given away Cody Ross for nothing. Then we should mention the Justin Germano for Rheal Cormier deal. Does anyone seriously doubt that Germano would be a very similar rotation option to Josh Fogg, whose pricetag seems to be about 7 million per year? So that's Germano's real value to the Reds--i.e. what it would cost to replace what he gives you. So Kearns, Lopez, Harris, Ross, and Germano have gone out of the organization for, as yet, no return, or negative return, and yet we're supposed to believe all Wayne's deals have been good.We can also add all of these guys to the list of people who who have no place on our 40 man roster. None of the names mentioned are any better than what we currently have in house.
Cody Ross- Not better than Griffey Dunn or Bruce
Brendan Harris- I'll take Phillips at 2b
Kearns- see Cody Ross
Medlock- Lot of arms in front of him at this point.
Lopez- If you could take his glove and throw it into the Ohio river, I'd take him as a bat off the bench. A little too expensive for that though.
Justin Germano- I would much rather see Cueto, Homer in the rotation.

IMO Bill Bray will shape into a damn good reliever this season, he's looked real good when healthy and we will be glad that after getting rid of the list of junk above, we got a pretty good left handed arm in the pen.

757690
01-11-2008, 01:52 AM
I am curious as to how this trade has kinda worked out. The Nat's received 2 everday players and the Redlegs 2 on the DL. I would take Kearns over Freel in a platoon or starting position.

I would like the logic behind this being a positive trade. Thanks.

Bray is by far the best player in that deal, and he is on the Reds. A young hard throwing left hander who can start and relieve.

Kearns is a crybaby whose is a fourth outfielder at best. He might be better than Freel, but that's not saying much. mUch rather have Bray than Freel or Kearns.

Lopez was a one year wonder, who can't field.

Wagner is hurt, and isn't that good when he is healthy.

The fact that Kearns is being shopped and no one wants him, while Lopez has lost his starting job says it all.

Basically the trade was dud on both ends. Definitely not an example of WK overpaying.

757690
01-11-2008, 02:19 AM
lo ryder, I certainly agree with the sentiment of your request that 757690 make it clearer how the Kearns-Lopez trade has "kinda" worked out. We've had absolutely no major league value of any kind from that trade to this point--in fact, we've had disvalue, most of it coming from Majewski. Wayner then compounded his poor trade by giving away the best player involved, Brendan Harris, as he had earlier given away Cody Ross for nothing. Then we should mention the Justin Germano for Rheal Cormier deal. Does anyone seriously doubt that Germano would be a very similar rotation option to Josh Fogg, whose pricetag seems to be about 7 million per year? So that's Germano's real value to the Reds--i.e. what it would cost to replace what he gives you. So Kearns, Lopez, Harris, Ross, and Germano have gone out of the organization for, as yet, no return, or negative return, and yet we're supposed to believe all Wayne's deals have been good.

Harris was terrible the second half of the season, after the league adjusted to him, he clearly did not adjust back.
.238 .297 .378

Look for him to put up numbers like that in 08.

Germano, same deal. A 7.38 ERA against teams the second and third time he pitched against them. He might not even make the Padres next year.

Ross was a mistake, but WK actually said he thought it might be when he sold him to FLA. He was caught in a numbers game and was out of options. WK said he really wanted to keep him but there was no room on the roster at the time. He batted .212 his first year with FLA, who could afford to keep him on the roster. The Reds just had too many outfielders at the time to keep him. Still, I agree, it would have been better to keep him in hindsight.

Medlock has not even made it to the majors so you can't say he is worth anything yet.

So that means one guy who is worth something, Cody Ross, was given away and that was due to roster restrictions. That does not make up a history.

HokieRed
01-11-2008, 09:29 AM
It's ridiculous to compare Bill Bray to Austin Kearns, however disappointed one is that Austin Kearns has not become the superstar leatherpants conned everybody into believing he would be. Kearns is at least a league average right fielder, on course to have a career much like Reggie Sanders'. Bray hasn't even established himself as a major league pitcher yet. Also, the opinion that none of the players K moved could be on our 40 man roster is just that--opinion--certainly not shared by the organizations who now have these players on their rosters. In any case, that's not the issue. I don't miss Kearns and Lopez one whit, but it's impossible to say that Krivsky got anything like decent return value for them--based on major league value to date. Same, especially, for Germano.

Bip Roberts
01-11-2008, 09:32 AM
Germano was dumped by philly also so apparently waynes not the only one who thinks he wasnt worth much.

757690
01-11-2008, 02:58 PM
It's ridiculous to compare Bill Bray to Austin Kearns, however disappointed one is that Austin Kearns has not become the superstar leatherpants conned everybody into believing he would be. Kearns is at least a league average right fielder, on course to have a career much like Reggie Sanders'. Bray hasn't even established himself as a major league pitcher yet. Also, the opinion that none of the players K moved could be on our 40 man roster is just that--opinion--certainly not shared by the organizations who now have these players on their rosters. In any case, that's not the issue. I don't miss Kearns and Lopez one whit, but it's impossible to say that Krivsky got anything like decent return value for them--based on major league value to date. Same, especially, for Germano.


You make a good point about Bray not establishing himself. Which is why he is the best player to come out of that trade.

We know no one else from that trade is any good. but at least Bray could be good. Ergo, the best player. Plus the Reds still have Thompson from that trade, and he could end up being in the majors.

BLEEDS
01-11-2008, 03:46 PM
It's ridiculous to compare Bill Bray to Austin Kearns, however disappointed one is that Austin Kearns has not become the superstar leatherpants conned everybody into believing he would be. Kearns is at least a league average right fielder, on course to have a career much like Reggie Sanders'. Bray hasn't even established himself as a major league pitcher yet. Also, the opinion that none of the players K moved could be on our 40 man roster is just that--opinion--certainly not shared by the organizations who now have these players on their rosters. In any case, that's not the issue. I don't miss Kearns and Lopez one whit, but it's impossible to say that Krivsky got anything like decent return value for them--based on major league value to date. Same, especially, for Germano.

Someone call the guys in white. If Austin Kearns ever has a year CLOSE to Reggie Sanders in terms of numbers, and 1/100th of his heart, please wake me up from this dream that I just read this quote.

You are comparing a fat kid who just played through his first year without ending up on the DL and STILL didn't hit over 20 HR"S, to a guy who's played into his 40's with proven power and SB threat for over 16 years.

The only thing they have in common is they both played for the Reds to start their career and had injury issues - although Reggie's were in his 30's, Kearns' is in his 20's.

If you think Austin is about to break off 10 years or so of 100+ games and 20-30 HR's per year, then you are SERIOUSLY living in la-la land.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

tripleaaaron
01-14-2008, 02:01 AM
To get back to bedard,
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/ is reporting the following:

"As we close on the 12th of January there is some new baseball news coming to me. According to Phil Rogers at the Chicago Tribune, he says the Orioles are still in talks with the Mariners and Cubs over players, and nothing is close just yet. He thinks the hold up in the Cubs trade could possibly be over Cubs prospects Tyler Colvin and Felix Pie. He thinks that if Pie or Colvin are in the deal that the Cubs could land both Bedard and Roberts. If they can and only give up one, I would do it."

Pie OR Colvin could land both? Insanity to think that one "expert" thinks that one of these prospects could land both when another thinks it will take Votto, Bailey and Cueto to land Bedard (who are each individually ranked as higher prospects than either pie or Colvin). If this is the case, take on the salary, move BP to Short and give up one of the above + a few lesser prospects for Roberts and Bedard.

tripleaaaron
01-14-2008, 02:03 AM
I think Mr. Rogers at the Tribune should lay down the rock that he's smokin because his thoughts are just insane

Natty Redlocks
01-14-2008, 06:06 AM
To get back to bedard,
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/ is reporting the following:

"As we close on the 12th of January there is some new baseball news coming to me. According to Phil Rogers at the Chicago Tribune, he says the Orioles are still in talks with the Mariners and Cubs over players, and nothing is close just yet. He thinks the hold up in the Cubs trade could possibly be over Cubs prospects Tyler Colvin and Felix Pie. He thinks that if Pie or Colvin are in the deal that the Cubs could land both Bedard and Roberts. If they can and only give up one, I would do it."

Pie OR Colvin could land both? Insanity to think that one "expert" thinks that one of these prospects could land both when another thinks it will take Votto, Bailey and Cueto to land Bedard (who are each individually ranked as higher prospects than either pie or Colvin). If this is the case, take on the salary, move BP to Short and give up one of the above + a few lesser prospects for Roberts and Bedard.

He wasn't talking about just Pie or Colvin; he was talking about them in addition to the other 4-5 players they've discussed, like Gallagher, Marshall, Cedeno, Murton, and Eric Patterson. Throw Pie on that pile and it doesn't look as ridiculous, though it is mostly spare parts.

ChatterRed
01-14-2008, 09:24 AM
I hope it is just a rumor. Trading 3 of the top 50 prospects in minor league baseball is ridiculous for a 2 year rental.

I hope the Reds exercise patience.

The Snow Chief
01-14-2008, 12:41 PM
hes talking money


If he is, then why is the Kearns/Lopez deal mentioned. Is he saying we overpaid by paying league minimum to Majewski and Bray?

Bip Roberts
01-14-2008, 12:44 PM
If he is, then why is the Kearns/Lopez deal mentioned. Is he saying we overpaid by paying league minimum to Majewski and Bray?

Hes talking both, player value in the kearns/lopez deal and money value in the other examples

The Snow Chief
01-14-2008, 12:46 PM
It's ridiculous to compare Bill Bray to Austin Kearns, however disappointed one is that Austin Kearns has not become the superstar leatherpants conned everybody into believing he would be. Kearns is at least a league average right fielder, on course to have a career much like Reggie Sanders'. Bray hasn't even established himself as a major league pitcher yet. Also, the opinion that none of the players K moved could be on our 40 man roster is just that--opinion--certainly not shared by the organizations who now have these players on their rosters. In any case, that's not the issue. I don't miss Kearns and Lopez one whit, but it's impossible to say that Krivsky got anything like decent return value for them--based on major league value to date. Same, especially, for Germano.

You could say the same after the Guillen/Harang deal. When you are trading proven players for rookies or prospects, it is always "impossible to say that [insert GM] got anything like decent return value for them--based on major league value to date." The hope is that their future major league value will be more than that of the player given up.