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*BaseClogger*
01-15-2008, 01:03 PM
Tim Dierkes of MLBtraderumors added the Reds to his Needs and Luxuries segment. I feel kinda cool because I requested this in the comments section yesterday.
link- http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/needs_and_luxuries/index.html


Needs and Luxuries: Cincinnati Reds

Next up in our Needs and Luxuries series, the Reds. I realize the timing of this series wasn't ideal, doing a bunch and then tailing off. It's something I can improve next time around, but it still seems people would like to see the remaining teams reviewed. Anyway, here's how the Reds are set up:

C - Dave Ross
1B - Joey Votto/Scott Hatteberg
2B - Brandon Phillips
SS - Alex Gonzalez
3B - Edwin Encarnacion
LF - Adam Dunn
CF - Ryan Freel/Norris Hopper/Jay Bruce
RF - Ken Griffey Jr.

SP - Aaron Harang
SP - Bronson Arroyo
SP - Matt Belisle
SP - Homer Bailey
SP - Edinson Volquez/Johnny Cueto

Setup - David Weathers
Closer - Francisco Cordero

Needs:

The Reds had a middle of the pack offense in '07, same as '06. Last year the Reds had below league-average offense at catcher and third base. I think Encarnacion will be fine, so one need might be to upgrade over Ross behind the plate. Would it make sense to acquire Michael Barrett for peanuts, to see if he can return to form?

The Reds have enough depth in center field to stand pat. Even if Bruce needs a few more months in the minors, Freel can probably hold down the fort.

One could envision the '08 Reds cracking 800 runs if everyone stays healthy in '08, which would probably be top five in the league.

Not shockingly, the Reds' big need is on the run prevention side. Let's start with defense - they were third from the bottom in defensive efficiency in '07. Maybe a bit more of Gonzalez will help on that front, but the Reds are mostly locked in with their position players. They are not in a position to give up offense for defense.

The Reds allowed 853 runs in '07, 15th out of 16 NL teams. Their bullpen was awful and the rotation was below average. If the Reds push their runs allowed all the way down to 780, they're still probably just an 83 win team. Now, if they get the runs allowed down to 750, that's 86 wins. A dash of luck and they're in the playoffs. To allow 750 runs would be league average or maybe a touch better.

Cordero helps the Reds' previously terrible pen, but this rotation isn't good enough to get to 750 runs allowed. The Mets were at the 750 level last year, the Dodgers the year before. You generally need three solid 30-start guys, not two and a bunch of question marks. The Reds have a huge incentive to get Erik Bedard - with him, they're a playoff contender, without him they're not. They are a team on the fringe, and Jon Lieber or Brett Tomko won't push them over the edge. Add an ace, you can sniff 90 wins.

Dunn and Griffey might be gone after the '08 season, and the Cordero signing was a win-now move. Jonathan Mayo wouldn't give up Bruce for Bedard, but that might be the only way the Reds make the playoffs this year. It would be a huge gamble, and depends on whether the team is trying to win right now or in 2009-10. Can't have both.

Luxuries:

Bruce isn't really a luxury, since the team traded Josh Hamilton and their corner outfielders may leave after '08. Trading near-MLB ready pitchers like Bailey and Cueto doesn't help the win-now cause though. Six years of Bruce is a ton to surrender, but Bedard is the ace they need. A one-for-one offer should be seriously considered.

You could call guys like Hatteberg and Freel luxuries, but neither is going to net anything particularly useful.

Stephenk29
01-15-2008, 01:23 PM
Interesting comments. I get the impression he's saying poop or get off the pot. Its pretty clear the Reds need another legit front line starter to make a serious push, but that's going to be expensive to do. If the worst case scenarios play out like he presented and Dunn and Griffey are done after '08, we're only going to digress again. Unless we get another front line starter we will not compete this year. As long as we can keep Dunn or at least acquire an OF/hitter of his caliber than we should be ok for '09 and on. However, that's only assuming that the pitching prospects pan out as well.

AmarilloRed
01-15-2008, 01:26 PM
He really is hung up on the Bruce-for-Bedard thing. I think we need a solid #3 to make the playoffs, but it is not a requirement for the Reds to trade Bruce. We are going to need Bruce if both Dunn and Griffey are gone in 2009. It also is entirely possible that 83 wins wins the NL Central. Livan could qualify as a starter who will give you 30 starts and 200 innings, but I didn't see him mentioned. I also think the bullpen will be much better with Cordero and the young relievers we have.

*BaseClogger*
01-15-2008, 01:31 PM
He really is hung up on the Bruce-for-Bedard thing. I think we need a solid #3 to make the playoffs, but it is not a requirement for the Reds to trade Bruce. We are going to need Bruce if both Dunn and Griffey are gone in 2009. It also is entirely possible that 83 wins wins the NL Central. Livan could qualify as a starter who will give you 30 starts and 200 innings, but I didn't see him mentioned. I also think the bullpen will be much better with Cordero and the young relievers we have.

He's a Cubs fan :rolleyes:

Bip Roberts
01-15-2008, 01:33 PM
Anyone with an obvious mind see 09 as being the year we are a better team.
08 is going to be a very interesting year. I cant see us being worse than 07 but unless we get a great year from Bailey or Volquez we arent going to be contending in 08.

Out of the teams in the central we are the obvious team that got THE MOST BETTER! god that hurt just typing that.

redhawk61
01-15-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah '09 is our year to be serious contenders. Let Volquez, Bailey, and Cueto (I guess Maloney) take their lumps this year. And who knows maybe 1,2, maybe even all suprise us and put up winning records. We then will have a better idea of our rotation in '09.

Once next offseason comes around with Griff, Stanton, prob Hatty, and maybe Dunn off the books we go out and sign a Carl Crawford or Milton Bradley type outfielder and a Derick Lowe or Ben Sheets type starter and you can look foward to a 2009 Central Championship and possible WS birth w/o losing any of the Big four. The only question we would have would be catcher

We could look at a 2009 lineup of (not batting order)
1b Votto
2b BP
3b EE
SS Keep
C Ross?/Tatum?/ Perez?
OF If Crawford signed
Crawford, Bruce, Dorn
OF is Bradley signed
Dorn, Bradley, Bruce

Rotation
Harang
Lowe/Sheets
Bailey/Arroyo if Bailey doesn't make it
Volquez/Arroyo if E-Vol doesn't make it
Cueto/Arroyo if Cueto doesn't make it

If all three are impressive we got some trading chips in Belise and Arroyo, could net us something useful like a catcher we migth need

Newman4
01-15-2008, 02:22 PM
Hmmm, with all the talk of 2009 and Dunn possibly being gone, I still think that the Reds need to either poop or get off the pot with Dunn. If you're looking to 2009 and not going to sign Dunn long-term, why not trade him for some valuable piece for 2009?

*BaseClogger*
01-15-2008, 02:23 PM
Hmmm, with all the talk of 2009 and Dunn possibly being gone, I still think that the Reds need to either poop or get off the pot with Dunn. If you're looking to 2009 and not going to sign Dunn long-term, why not trade him for some valuable piece for 2009?

No trade clause?

AmarilloRed
01-15-2008, 02:28 PM
No trade clause?

Dunn can be traded; it is just more difficult. He has a limited no-trade clause. Starting in June, he can be traded to 10 teams of his choice. I expect if a LTC can not be worked out, the Reds would seek a trade to one of those 10 teams at the end of the trade deadline.

Newman4
01-15-2008, 02:28 PM
No trade clause?

Yes, but an extension to his liking would probably cancel that out.

*BaseClogger*
01-15-2008, 02:29 PM
Dunn can be traded; it is just more difficult. He has a limited no-trade clause. Starting in June, he can be traded to 10 teams of his choice. I expect if a LTC can not be worked out, the Reds would seek a trade to one of those 10 teams at the end of the trade deadline.

Yes, the way I understood it he meant trade him now. Anywho, I don't think we will get much for him, considering we didn't like the return last summer when he was having a career year and cheaper... Might we be better off getting a draft pick?

Nasty_Boy
01-15-2008, 04:27 PM
Yes, but an extension to his liking would probably cancel that out.

But if Dunn is extended, why not extend him in order to keep him. I'm sure that if he would agree to an extension unless it was an LTC. I do agree that a decision has to be made. Dunn is too valuable as a player or as a trading chip to just let him walk away via free agency. I would rather Dunn be signed for 3-5 years and be done with it.

SMcGavin
01-15-2008, 05:13 PM
Anyone with an obvious mind see 09 as being the year we are a better team.
08 is going to be a very interesting year. I cant see us being worse than 07 but unless we get a great year from Bailey or Volquez we arent going to be contending in 08.

Out of the teams in the central we are the obvious team that got THE MOST BETTER! god that hurt just typing that.

I pretty much agree. Bruce instead of Griffey in RF, then go get a defensive specialist for CF. I don't think it's unreasonable that two of Belisle/Bailey/Volquez/Cueto can be at least league average in 09 - just try and add one more #2/3 type. That's better defense, better pitching, and at least similar offense (with Votto/Bruce coming into their own). I think we're a year away.

AmarilloRed
01-15-2008, 07:23 PM
I pretty much agree. Bruce instead of Griffey in RF, then go get a defensive specialist for CF. I don't think it's unreasonable that two of Belisle/Bailey/Volquez/Cueto can be at least league average in 09 - just try and add one more #2/3 type. That's better defense, better pitching, and at least similar offense (with Votto/Bruce coming into their own). I think we're a year away.

I hear Chris Dickerson plays outstanding defense. He could be the defensive specialist you're looking for in 2009.

Bip Roberts
01-15-2008, 07:50 PM
I hear Chris Dickerson plays outstanding defense. He could be the defensive specialist you're looking for in 2009.

Not unless they make a rule about DHing for CFers

AmarilloRed
01-15-2008, 10:50 PM
Not unless they make a rule about DHing for CFers

He is not that bad a hitter. He hit .260 last year in less than a full season in AAA. Assuming he is not the starting center fielder next year, another year of seasoning could only help him. 2007 was his first season at AAA. If he can learn to cut down on the strikeouts next year, and make more contact, he would make an ideal center-fielder in 2009.

Vada Pinson Fan
01-15-2008, 11:07 PM
Very nice thread BaseClogger! I read the entire "Needs and Luxuries" concerning the Reds and also all of the comments....whew! What the Orioles fans need to understand, for those who say keep Bedard and build around him, they are fooling themselves because from everything I've read Bedard can't wait to leave Baltimore after the '09 season. So if that happens Baltimore will receive comparatively unknown talents in the compensatory rounds of the draft. Asking for Bruce, Bailey AND Cueto is preposterous but it's ok to ask, if indeed McPhail has asked Krivsky for what many Oriole fans are hoping for.

Truth be known, I strongly believe the Reds and Mariners are more than happy to have the great quality and quantity of young, future stars. Baltimore is so envious, they're being greedy in their demands. If and when Bedard is traded, a smart GM will not fork over anything close to what we all have read as an asking price from the Reds and/or Mariners. Bedard is amazing, especially having come back from Tommy John surgery 4 years ago but that curve he throws will once again take its toll on Erik Bedard. Then throw in the oblique muscle injury last year and who knows what the overall effect that had or will have on his arm and shoulder in 2008 and beyond.

I am convinced the Reds are better off keeping all of our young players for the next 5 to 6 years depending on the individual payer than having Bedard for 2 years as it would stand now. Just think of the daily returns from Jay Bruce and Joey Votto as Reds! Man I can't wait to watch these two on offense and defense! Add to that the fun we'll have watching Bailey, Cueto, Volquez and Maloney blossom into Major League pitchers behind Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo! Even Matt Belisle could improve. One of Belisle's strongest supporters was none other than Greg Maddux who said of Belisle when both were teammates on the Braves-"the kid gets it". The future looks brighter for the Reds than it has in many, many years.

If Bedard is so great, Oriole fans, please by all means, just hang on to him.

OBTW- Yes, the Reds will be better in 2008 but doubtful they even come close to winning the division. Now watch out in '09! Dusty Baker will know his players better and make better decisions, as will Walt Jocketty and Wayne Krivsky. Bob Castellini has proven that he puts his money where his mouth is and will bring in those 2008 post-season free agents that we need. At that point I look for the Reds and Arizona Diamonbacks to battle it out for the 2009 National League crown.

Newman4
01-16-2008, 12:13 PM
But if Dunn is extended, why not extend him in order to keep him. I'm sure that if he would agree to an extension unless it was an LTC. I do agree that a decision has to be made. Dunn is too valuable as a player or as a trading chip to just let him walk away via free agency. I would rather Dunn be signed for 3-5 years and be done with it.

I meant that he would waive his no trade clause if received a suitable extension from the potential team he would be traded to.

SMcGavin
01-16-2008, 12:18 PM
I hear Chris Dickerson plays outstanding defense. He could be the defensive specialist you're looking for in 2009.

I'd love for him to be able to hit enough to start at the ML level but I don't really see it. You're right though, if he could just hit a little, I'd have no problem with him in CF. Now if we still had that Denorfia guy...

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 01:00 PM
Anyone with an obvious mind see 09 as being the year we are a better team.

Let's see, who WON'T be on the 2009 roster, that is on the 2008:

Ken Griffey Junior - no way we pick up his optoin
Dunn (?) - who knows, definitely not for sure
Hatteberg - cheap, veteran LH Bat off the bench if nothing else
Valentin - cheap, veteran LH Bat/platooning Catcher
David Ross - starting catcher, unless you plan on paying him $3.5M
David Weathers - cheap, veteran set-up guy if nothing else

Due HUGE raises:


Cordero, $12M
Harang, $11M
Arroyo, $9.5M
BP - 2nd year of Arbitration
Belisle - 2nd year of Arbitration
EE - 1st year of Arbitration

Other big salaries:
AGon - $5.75
Freel - $4M
Stanton - $2.5M (unless he DOESN"T get 71 appearances in 2008)

and a WHOLE LOT of ????'s, especially in the OF. Replacing Junior and Dunn's offense is no small task, especially now that Hamilton is gone.



Out of the teams in the central we are the obvious team that got THE MOST BETTER! god that hurt just typing that.

How so? We got a closer, but our Rotation is WORSE than it was last year. At least Kyle Lohse was a "proven" #3 starter, even though he was inconsistent, you could pencil him in for ~4.5ERA and ~1.3WHIP - even though it was maybe a 1.00 ERA one game and 8.00 the next...

We've "promoted" Belisle to #3, even though he posted a 5.32 ERA - I know, I know, he was "UNLUCKY", and his Defense Independent ERA is as good as yada yada... let me clue you in to something: "HE'S GOT THE SAME DEFENSE BEHIND HIM THIS YEAR".

We traded for Volquez, who MAY earn a SP spot, but that's more IF's. We traded away an arguably All-Star capable CF for him.

The Cubs just signed Jon Leiber, that's more significant than anything we've done yet to help our starting pitching.

The Astros got Miguel Tejada.

The Cards traded Rolen for Glaus. A guy who may not have started for the Birds for a guy who can hit 30 HRs in his sleep.

I wouldn't call us "Most Better" quite yet...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Lohse at the end of the year could have a 4.50 era but how he gets tehre is the most important part. Dominating starts of 1 hit ball followed by awful starts of no outs ball.

You might think the rotation is worse but i fail to see how it honestly is. This year we at least have 5 pitchers instead of running crap like sarloos, ramirez, dumatrait, and santos out there to suffer through 4 innings of automatic loss.

Belisle problems werent stuff related it was experience and mental mistakes related plus the unlucky thing, but I expect him to be more polished this time around.

Jon Lieber is a joke coming off injuries and will be lucky to have 3 quality starts for the cubs next year. Not to mention i made my post before the signing :rolleyes:

The Cards traded for Glaus who best days are behind him because he stopped taking roids, have a huge question mark in center because they are going to rush Colby and who has any clue on if Carpenter is going to ever be back.

Tejeda.. congrats on adding another aging player to your team Astros make sure he gets some B12 and can plan the whole left side of the infield

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:27 PM
I love how you just ignore that we have Bruce, and Votto which should make up for the lost production of the often injured RF and Adam Dunn if we were to lose him. To project much farther is just a losing battle because we cant predict progression of some of our other guys in the minors that fairly right now

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 01:31 PM
I love how you just ignore that we have Bruce, and Votto which should make up for the lost production of the often injured RF and Adam Dunn if we were to lose him.

I'm not ignoring them. My point is that they will ALL BE ON THE SAME ROSTER IN 2008, BUT WON'T IN 2009.

If you think Bruce will hit 30 EXTRA HR"S in 2009 to make up for Griffey, and Votto will hit 40 EXTRA HR"S in 2009 to make up for Dunn, then you need to go back and check your Madden MLB Manager video game son...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not ignoring them. My point is that they will ALL BE ON THE SAME ROSTER IN 2008, BUT WON'T IN 2009.

If you think Bruce will hit 30 EXTRA HR"S in 2009 to make up for Griffey, and Votto will hit 40 EXTRA HR"S in 2009 to make up for Dunn, then you need to go back and check your Madden MLB Manager video game son...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

So our team will have a better offense in 08 than in 09 but our team will be better in 09 because of the young highly rated starting pitching getting more experience.

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 01:37 PM
Lohse at the end of the year could have a 4.50 era but how he gets tehre is the most important part. Dominating starts of 1 hit ball followed by awful starts of no outs ball.

You might think the rotation is worse but i fail to see how it honestly is. This year we at least have 5 pitchers instead of running crap like sarloos, ramirez, dumatrait, and santos out there to suffer through 4 innings of automatic loss.

Belisle problems werent stuff related it was experience and mental mistakes related plus the unlucky thing, but I expect him to be more polished this time around.

Jon Lieber is a joke coming off injuries and will be lucky to have 3 quality starts for the cubs next year. Not to mention i made my post before the signing :rolleyes:

Let me put it to you like the "Big Boys" do, from the ORG:
Kc61
""I respectfully disagree. This is a team that last year went for the big stuff, the starting pitcher, Soriano, spent a lot of bucks. Now they are wisely filling in the missing pieces, a needed lefty bat, back-end of rotation guys, extra arms for depth (in the case of Wood, a high-risk and very high-reward guy).

This is how you try to win and, sooner or later, it will click and the Cubs will have a very big year. Maybe this year, maybe next, but soon.

Obviously the Cubs have a financial advantage, but I find their aggressiveness refreshing. I'm just not one to bank on pitching improving because "luck" may change and the other straws that people sometimes grasp at here. ""

The Cubs are leaps and bounds "THE BETTEREST" in the off-season so-far, and especially if they get Roberts. We'd be wise to make a play to WIN, instead of hoping for everyone to have career/rebound years and "LUCK"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 01:40 PM
So our team will have a better offense in 08 than in 09 but our team will be better in 09 because of the young highly rated starting pitching getting more experience.

So you think Bailey/Cueto/Volquez will win enough games in 2009 - OVER 2008 - to make up for the loss of Dunn and Junior, and a couple veteran lefties off the bench? Come on!?!

PS3 or X-Box?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:43 PM
09 position line up if we lose Dunn and or Junior
1b Votto
2b Phillips
ss Gonzales i guess
3b Edwin
RF Bruce
CF Lots of mediocre options
LF ??

Ok so we lost 1 major position. Could be filled by resigning Dunn, or taking Griffeys option

Then we have our rotation
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Cueto
Belisle
Volquez
Maloney

all the young guys could have a lot of MLB experiance by 09

Bullpen
Cordero
Burton
Bray
Mcbeth
Salmon
Pelland
Viola
Roenicke
Coffey (question mark)
Stanton just because of the contract.

You have to assume that the young guys get better or its all for nothing anyways. You will never get better if the young guys never do.

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:46 PM
So you think Bailey/Cueto/Volquez will win enough games in 2009 - OVER 2008 - to make up for the loss of Dunn and Junior, and a couple veteran lefties off the bench? Come on!?!

PS3 or X-Box?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I think 3 solid MLB starters will surely make up for the loss of an often injured RF with terrible D and the possible loss of Adam Dunn. God forbid we have a good rotation one of these years. We all know having a great line up and bad pitching works wonders lets just keep trying it.... If anyones playing video games its you sir. You cant just make a great line up and win every game 10-9

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 01:51 PM
Seriously we are nit picking, Cubs added Jon Lieber and Fukudome this season. The Reds added a closer and have better young players. Lets be serious cubs were a better team to start of the offseason but imo we filled our holes better than any other club in the division

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 01:58 PM
09 position line up if we lose Dunn and or Junior
1b Votto
2b Phillips
ss Gonzales i guess
3b Edwin
RF Bruce
CF Lots of mediocre options
LF ??


Versus a lineup in 2008 of:
1b Votto
2b Phillips
ss Gonzales
3b Edwin
RF Griffey
CF Bruce
LF Dunn

Looks like you replaced Griffey with "Lots of Mediocre Options" and Dunn with ???

Looks like two ???'s to me...

Also, you forgot Catcher, BOTH Ross and Valentin are FA's after this year. Let me guess, that's not a ??? either?



Then we have our rotation
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey
Cueto
Belisle
Volquez
Maloney


Yes, it is the SAME, but you still have slotted Bailey as a #3 and he's not proven he can handle that yet. Bailey/Cueto/Volquez as your #4/#5 would be great - if we had better TOR guys beyond Harang.

We need to take advantage of what we've got in 2008, and set things up for the future as well.

And, just for the record, I AM excited about our young guys - moreso Votto and Bruce - but the pitchers can't be thrown to the wolves if you want them to succeed. That's why we need a Veteran SP, at a MINIMUM, and should go for a #2 SP so everyone - including Arroyo - drops down a slot in the rotation. THEN we can compete for 2008 AND 2009, and beyond...

Harang, Arroyo, Cordero, all signed through 2010, with options for 2011, then they are all ???'s too. Getting a Bedard/Blanton for 2-3 years would be the BEST core to add to our pitching staff - then alow us to bring along the young pitchers so that they can DEVELOP slowly and possibly be groomed to replace these guys.

I would also sign Dunn to an LTC right now - 4 years minimum, to match this window - and then take my chances with only having to consider Griffey and some bench depth, in addition to Catcher.

We aren't really THAT far apart, and we have the same goals, I'm just not ready to say we're there yet and think we have everything set up for the short/long-term just yet.

WK and Jockety need one more BIG play in FA/Trade, then sign Dunn LTC, then I'll be pacified - for now.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 02:03 PM
So Bleeds likes to go to the we dont know the future so the future always sucks card? God how can any team ever build a team

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 02:27 PM
So Bleeds likes to go to the we dont know the future so the future always sucks card? God how can any team ever build a team


Well, you want to go with the "the future's so bright, you got to wear shades" card. We've been in THAT mode for 17 years now...

a VERY funny post from the ORG (Funny because it's TRUE!):
red-in-la:
Now that the Reds have a few propsects, Redzone is in love..... :luvu:

As for the rotation: :lastyear:


Get me some PROVEN commodities - otherwise you're wasting an $11M/year closer, otherwise we're pinning our hopes onthe 3 P's - PROMISES, PROSPECTS AND PRAYERS


PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 02:29 PM
So in fact you would rather trade all the young guys complain about salaries, ponder who is goign to replace the veterans you traded all the young guys for and then complain about not having any young guys... awesome

Caveman Techie
01-16-2008, 02:48 PM
So just a question why is it being argued as if it is a fact that Jr and Dunn will BOTH be gone next year? I think it is more likely that only one will be gone. I think if the Red's can't sign Dunn to an extension then they'll pick up the option on Griffey.

And as for the number 2 SP we are supposed to get, who would that be and how would we get them? There are none available via free agency and I really don't want them to give our entire farm system to the O's for Bedard. I would much rather plug our young guys into the rotation and let them get some experience.

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 03:03 PM
So in fact you would rather trade all the young guys complain about salaries, ponder who is goign to replace the veterans you traded all the young guys for and then complain about not having any young guys... awesome

you might want to look up the word "Strawman" in the dictionary...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 03:08 PM
Please alert me when we are the yankees/cubs/redsox/mets then i might take your opinion as something that might be worth something. Time to file for your fan free agency because you are clearly looking for another team to be a fan of.

Bleeds just because you think the reds havent had success in the past at building young teams and talent doesnt mean they cant do it

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Please alert me when we are the yankees/cubs/redsox/mets then i might take your opinion as something that might be worth something. Time to file for your fan free agency because you are clearly looking for another team to be a fan of.

This just in - new ownership, Jockety "special assistant to the owner", Dusty Baker new coach, Cordero signed to a 4 yr $46M deal.

These are not "your father(Carl Lindner)'s Cincinnati Reds". They want to win now, and have increased payroll, and will (hopefully) continue to, have made trades and picked up some decent FA's and SIGNED THEIR OWN.

You need to get with the times. They didn't do all of that to turn over 60% of their rotation to guys with less than 40 combined starts in the Majors.



Bleeds just because you think the reds havent had success in the past at building young teams and talent doesnt mean they cant do it

You are right, but they can do it while TRADING some of that young talent so that they can WIN NOW as well as later.

The window is closing, and WK's contract is up this year.

Castellini promised a Winner, now, until he shows me different, that's the opinion I'm going with.

If he doesn't make another move in 2008 for a #3 starter or above, that will be an indicator to me that he isn't.

Then we WILL be like the Cubs - "Wait until Next Year!":thumbdown

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 03:28 PM
Did you just crawl out from under a rock? Krivsky has been trying to add bedard but sadly hes on the worst ran club in the majors and they are demanding Bruce + other guys which possibly include Bailey/Cueto and more. You may want to win now but you cant just piss away the future, especially when the future is full of MLB ready talent.

So let me see if i got this right. You want to dump our young talent for a chance to maybe win this year, lose griffey and dunn next year and then have even bigger holes and go back to building for the future with no obvious MLB ready talent ready. Makes tons of sense.

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 03:36 PM
Did you just crawl out from under a rock? Krivsky has been trying to add bedard but sadly hes on the worst ran club in the majors and they are demanding Bruce + other guys which possibly include Bailey/Cueto and more. You may want to win now but you cant just piss away the future, especially when the future is full of MLB ready talent.

So let me see if i got this right. You want to dump our young talent for a chance to maybe win this year, lose griffey and dunn next year and then have even bigger holes and go back to building for the future with no obvious MLB ready talent ready. Makes tons of sense.

Maybe you are, and you'd better watch it with the comments and the verbiage. The Men in White might come at you in a bit.

I've laid my "plans" out many times, including this thread, so don't get hostile, and don't make specifics out of generalities, or start building strawmen.

You don't have a plan it seems, other than HOPE and WAIT. We've been doing that for 17 years.

Part of the reason you build a Flourishing Farm system is so you can TRADE those Prospects to help your team NOW, not always counting on the future unknowns.

The bottom line is we DO have a TON of prospects now, but we also have a number of solid vets on both the O and SP that are in a small window. Couple that with an aggressive FO, signings of a WIN-NOW coach, and spending an UNGODLY amount on a FA closer, and all signs point to us NOT being done quite yet. NO way they're turning over this current rotation to an $11M a year closer. THAT is what would make no sense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 04:01 PM
Im finished replying

BLEEDS
01-16-2008, 04:12 PM
Im finished replying

Great, looks like it's time for your nap anyway.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 04:15 PM
Great, looks like it's time for your nap anyway.

PEACE

-BLEEDS
Oh noes please send me more PMs about personal attacks, while not listening to your own advice.

PEACE

-BIP ROBERTS

Orenda
01-16-2008, 05:05 PM
Even though I feel that the reds would be wise to habitually hoard/develop their own talent there are some times when trading the right package of prospects make sense. One point that is not being addressed that I think BLEEDS is touching on is the window of opportunity for this team. If you feel that it's only this year or next then making a big move makes sense, but if you think it's next year and beyond then it might be best to go in a different direction. I can assure you that Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, and Houston are going to do whatever they can to compete in as short a time as possable, so simply waiting for prospects can be a risky proposition. That said, I'm still content to go with the young pitchers this season, but would still like to see the reds sign an arm saver type to protect the young guns.

wlf WV
01-16-2008, 05:22 PM
I don't see any viable options, other than wait for ST to sort things out.If needed we could then pick up a filler pitcher.You can't pay the price for any pitcher we've discussed,we're not overvaluing our prospects. The opportunity escaped when D-Backs got Haren .

*BaseClogger*
01-16-2008, 08:43 PM
I don't think it would be that hard to find a decent hitting LF in next year's FA class. Just look at this year: Shannon Stewart would have made a nice leadoff hitter, and a platoon of Brad Wilkerson and Kevin Mench would also have been very effective. BLEEDS, I think you assume we are going to get no produciton out of the spots that Dunn and Griffey vacate, which is short-minded. Suprisingly, I'm gonna have to agree with Bip Roberts on this topic...

Bip Roberts
01-16-2008, 08:45 PM
We agree on pretty much everything besides how good Beane is you turd nugget. :)

Newman4
01-17-2008, 12:31 AM
the "Big Boys" do, from the ORG

Referring to the ORG posters as "Big Boys" is disgusting. Sorry.

BLEEDS
01-17-2008, 10:56 AM
Referring to the ORG posters as "Big Boys" is disgusting. Sorry.

The "Big Boys" is a reference to the Cubs, not the ORG posters.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

roby
01-17-2008, 02:24 PM
The "Big Boys" is a reference to the Cubs, not the ORG posters.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Dude, Cubs are little baby bears...not big boys!

BLEEDS
01-17-2008, 04:25 PM
Dude, Cubs are little baby bears...not big boys!

Perhaps you haven't seen their payroll. It sure buys a lot of honey.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

The Snow Chief
01-17-2008, 06:06 PM
So you think Bailey/Cueto/Volquez will win enough games in 2009 - OVER 2008 - to make up for the loss of Dunn and Junior, and a couple veteran lefties off the bench? Come on!?!

PS3 or X-Box?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

It depends on who we have/get to replace them. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that we could plug in Bruce in RF in 09 after getting his feet wet in 08 and sign a FA LF and both could give you 20-25 HRs (less than Dunn and Griffey woud) but: (1) hit for the same or better average than Griffey/Dunn; (2) give you better defense than Griffey/Dunn; and (3) give you better baserunning than Griffey/Dunn.

All of that would mitigate against the run production gap. It may not eliminate it, but it would shrink it. If they can do all those things (which I recognize is a big if), then it is certainly possible that the 09 team can be improved after giving the young pitchers 08 to get their feet wet.

As for Javy and Hatte, the same applies. It just depends on who is signed or promoted to replace them.