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Highlifeman21
01-19-2008, 10:34 AM
Not sure how to introduce the topic, other to say that to the best of my knowledge, we have 4 RB on the depth chart right now, and can really only play 2.

R. Johnson
K. Irons
K. Watson
C. Perry

If I forgot someone, lemme know.

I was never convinced that Rudi was a starting NFL back, but we gave him a chance when Dillon left town, and to cover our butt, we drafted Perry as an insurance policy if Rudi didn't work out. Complete waste of a 1st Round Pick, but I've already ranted enough about that.

Irons got hurt in the preseason, but IMO is our best back, but that could change depending on how he rehabs.

Then we're left with Watson, who turned some heads in his limited playing time, but I think that was more or less other teams not havinig enough film on him and not knowing much about him.

Post Super Bowl, what would you do to address the RB situation, and what do you honestly think the Bengals will do, if anything?

Me? I'd ship Rudi out of town for either a draft pick or a defensive player to help the depth on that side of the ball. I could honestly live with Irons and Watson. I'd also ship Perry out of town for anything. And I do mean anything.

I forgot about Dorsey and Wilson, but I don't remember them seeing the field, or if they did it was in garbage time or Special Teams. So to me, they don't really exist. Talk about them if you want, but I don't anticipate much discussion concerning them.

Playadlc
01-19-2008, 10:49 AM
I think Dede is a very underrated running back. He has a burst that none of our other backs (don't know about Irons) have.

I am not sure how much Rudi's hamstring slowed him down this year, but he was flat out embarrassing this season. He has to be the easiest running back in the NFL to tackle. I honestly doubt you would get anything in a trade for him. I would just assume let him go.

I'd happily go to war next season with Perry, Irons, Dorsey and Watson. If Irons and Perry do not work out, at least you know what you have in Watson.

Highlifeman21
01-19-2008, 10:52 AM
I think Dede is a very underrated running back. He has a burst that none of our other backs (don't know about Irons) have.

I am not sure how much Rudi's hamstring slowed him down this year, but he was flat out embarrassing this season. He has to be the easiest running back in the NFL to tackle. I honestly doubt you would get anything in a trade for him. I would just assume let him go.

I'd happily go to war next season with Perry, Irons, Dorsey and Watson. If Irons and Perry do not work out, at least you know what you have in Watson.

Depending on the cap implications, I would rather use him (Rudi) as an asset to acquire a different asset rather than to just write him off as a sunk cost.

I feel the same way about Chris Perry. Getting him off the Bengals only makes them immediately that much better. Use him to get something different.

Bip Roberts
01-19-2008, 12:01 PM
Dorsey is going to be on the team just because he plays special teams.

Rudi has almost gotta be cut. Save the cap room. Hes had a bad year and a half and no real reason to believe hes going to return to form of a couple seasons ago just based off how NFL running backs work. Really doubt he has any trade value unless you are talking late late round picks. Nature of the beast in the NFL.

Irons is most likely going to be the starter next season in my eyes, unless there is of course some type of problem with his rehab, and if there is we will just suffer through the year of Watson being serviceable.

Next years depth chart should look like this

Irons
Watson
Perry (being healthy enough could move him up a notch)

sonny
01-19-2008, 12:12 PM
The position of Cincinnati Bengal running back has got to be cursed. Just off the top of my head.

Harold Green
Kijana Carter
Chris Perry
Kenny Irons
Rudi Johnson
(I know I'm missing a few more)

...and to some extent, Corey Dillon, All these guys have either been rendered totally ineffective due to injuries or have become disruptive because of attitude. But the RB position in a Bengals uniform has not been historically successful.

The curse of the Ickey Shuffle. I like the sound of that.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1997/weekly/catchingup/1215/images/cu1215.jpg

Bip Roberts
01-19-2008, 12:14 PM
Recent years have been crap in terms of luck with injuries but the bengals have always had solid ground games.

WVRed
01-19-2008, 01:25 PM
IMO, Rudi and Perry should be gone. Go into the season with Watson and Irons as our starting backs.

Another alternative would be to possibly address the problem via FA. Julius Jones and Michael Turner are possibilities. That being said though, I would rather keep things in house.

Screwball
01-19-2008, 01:50 PM
Recent years have been crap in terms of luck with injuries but the bengals have always had solid ground games.

Well, not the last two seasons. In 2006, the Bengals ranked 26th in the NFL in rushing yards with a 3.7 ypc average. In 2007 they didn't fare much better as they were ranked 24th in rushing yards, with the same weak 3.7 ypc average.

I used to think it was just a banged up, makeshift offensive line that was the root of the problem. But watching Kenny Watson exceedingly outperform Rudi J against the same defenses with the same offesnive lines clearly points the blame at Rudi. He has no burst through the holes, and in the NFL a fraction of a second is all it takes to turn a 5 yard run into a 2 yard run and vice versa. Not only that, but the Rudi Johnson of yesteryear scoffed at an arm tackle. This past season, however, I've lost count of the number of times he's gone down to simply running into his own lineman. As Playaldc said above, it was flat out embarassing.

As of right now, I'd probably have the depth chart at:

Kenny Watson
Kenny Irons
Dede Dorsey
Chris Perry

Watson had a fine, fine season and deserves to get his shot at the bulk of the carries again next year. Irons should be a nice complementary back at first and begin to get more touches as the season progresses. Dede is just fun to watch and Bratkowski should try to get him into the flats where he can outrun fools. Chris Perry I don't trust.

Lastly, I'm unsure of the ramifications of cutting or trading Rudi as far as a cap hit, but after his painfully obvious decline these past two seasons, there's no way I allow him to continue to sabotage offensive drives with his anemic 2.9 ypc. It's tough to march down the field when you're repeatedly facing 3rd and longs due to an absent running game.

Unfortunately, from everything I've read or heard Marvin tell the media, he says Rudi's done just fine - it's the O-Line's fault. And while the O-Line does have its share of blame for a poor ground game the past couple of seasons, if it's clear to me Rudi's lost a step or six, then sirens and red flags should be deafening to an NFL coaching staff.

CTA513
01-19-2008, 02:26 PM
IMO, Rudi and Perry should be gone. Go into the season with Watson and Irons as our starting backs.

Another alternative would be to possibly address the problem via FA. Julius Jones and Michael Turner are possibilities. That being said though, I would rather keep things in house.

Another running back I would look at if Rudi and Perry go is Justin Fargas.

GoReds33
01-19-2008, 02:35 PM
Dorsey is a good back. I think that, if given the chance, he would put up better numbers than Rudi with an equal number of carries. I don't know about the durability though. Irons is a good young back too. Hopefully they will both develop, and form a solid 1-2 combo for years to come.

TC81190
01-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Michael Turner was locked up by San Diego.

I like Dorsey, though. He has the ability to just burst upfield, he's an explosive back. Reminds me of Ryan Grant. Irons, Dorsey, and Watson should battle it out in the preseason, but in the end, I imagine Watson will start, with Dorsey spelling him, and Rudi getting cut.

Bip Roberts
01-19-2008, 03:26 PM
Well, not the last two seasons. In 2006, the Bengals ranked 26th in the NFL in rushing yards with a 3.7 ypc average. In 2007 they didn't fare much better as they were ranked 24th in rushing yards, with the same weak 3.7 ypc average.

I used to think it was just a banged up, makeshift offensive line that was the root of the problem. But watching Kenny Watson exceedingly outperform Rudi J against the same defenses with the same offesnive lines clearly points the blame at Rudi. He has no burst through the holes, and in the NFL a fraction of a second is all it takes to turn a 5 yard run into a 2 yard run and vice versa. Not only that, but the Rudi Johnson of yesteryear scoffed at an arm tackle. This past season, however, I've lost count of the number of times he's gone down to simply running into his own lineman. As Playaldc said above, it was flat out embarassing.

As of right now, I'd probably have the depth chart at:

Kenny Watson
Kenny Irons
Dede Dorsey
Chris Perry

Watson had a fine, fine season and deserves to get his shot at the bulk of the carries again next year. Irons should be a nice complementary back at first and begin to get more touches as the season progresses. Dede is just fun to watch and Bratkowski should try to get him into the flats where he can outrun fools. Chris Perry I don't trust.

Lastly, I'm unsure of the ramifications of cutting or trading Rudi as far as a cap hit, but after his painfully obvious decline these past two seasons, there's no way I allow him to continue to sabotage offensive drives with his anemic 2.9 ypc. It's tough to march down the field when you're repeatedly facing 3rd and longs due to an absent running game.

Unfortunately, from everything I've read or heard Marvin tell the media, he says Rudi's done just fine - it's the O-Line's fault. And while the O-Line does have its share of blame for a poor ground game the past couple of seasons, if it's clear to me Rudi's lost a step or six, then sirens and red flags should be deafening to an NFL coaching staff.
I said recent years...

Screwball
01-19-2008, 03:36 PM
I said recent years...

Hence I talked about 2006 and 2007...

Bip Roberts
01-19-2008, 04:02 PM
Hence I talked about 2006 and 2007...

I just felt like you were disagreeing with me or something

Redhook
01-19-2008, 08:34 PM
I'm pretty content with the Bengals running backs. I hope the Bengals but Rudi and have Watson and Irons duke it out for the starter spot. Then I see how the health of Perry is and determine what to do with him after that. Dede should be on the team as well. There's 4 guys for probably 3 spots. And all of them are decent. I just hope the Bengals don't waste another draft pick on a running back. Unless you're LT, or Peterson, the offensive line is what makes good running backs.

bucksfan2
01-21-2008, 12:06 PM
Running back seems like the most replaceable position in all of football. Off the top of my head there is only one running back that isn't replaceable in the NFL and that is LT. Peterson seems like a good one but he is still young and has to prove he can stay healthy over a full season. I think drafting a running back in a early round is just foolish.

I think you go into camp with Perry (if affordable), Irons, Watson, and Dorsey. I also look at drafting a back with a later pick. I think an interesting guy is Slaton. I have a feeling his is going to fall pretty far in the draft and if you can grab him with a 4th pick that may be a good deal.

RedsManRick
01-23-2008, 05:49 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that RB is without a doubt the most overrated position in the game. Give me any back in the NFL and a plus offensive line and I'll show you a guy who can give you 1200 yards and 10 TDs. Get a speed guy who can catch the ball and a grinder who can move the pile and then put your big money elsewhere.

Cedric
01-23-2008, 06:33 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that RB is without a doubt the most overrated position in the game. Give me any back in the NFL and a plus offensive line and I'll show you a guy who can give you 1200 yards and 10 TDs. Get a speed guy who can catch the ball and a grinder who can move the pile and then put your big money elsewhere.

I would only draft a RB in the first round under two situations. One being the player is a LT/Adrian Peterson type. The other being you have a completely stacked team (Patriots with Maroney).

Drafting Chris Perry and Kenny Irons in the 2nd round is a complete waste of a pick. Marvin has a slight history of wasting picks though, I wasn't surprised by Irons at all.

I certainly wouldn't extend Rudi Johnson at the rate the Bengals did. Again though the Bengals aren't the smartest franchise. I consider most NFL teams to be inept though. Only a few franchises have figured out the basis for building a great team. That's why I'm not shocked in the salary cap era that one team is dominating all others. That man and his staff have taken a simple approach to building a team with the salary cap and they don't budge. Until other teams start using their brains it's going to continue. One team has completely taken advantage of the salary cap system while most all other teams are clueless. That's why we have 4 super bowl wins in 7 years.

Highlifeman21
01-24-2008, 06:38 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that RB is without a doubt the most overrated position in the game. Give me any back in the NFL and a plus offensive line and I'll show you a guy who can give you 1200 yards and 10 TDs. Get a speed guy who can catch the ball and a grinder who can move the pile and then put your big money elsewhere.

I see you've paid close attention to the Denver Broncos the last couple of years?

RedsManRick
01-24-2008, 07:16 PM
I see you've paid close attention to the Denver Broncos the last couple of years?

They're certainly not the only one. Unless of course you think 30 teams passed on drafting a guy who really is a 5.1 Y/C talent -- Ryan Grant. Or that Chester Taylor was really a backup and suddenly got better. The list goes on and on.

Put LT behind a bad line and he'd be lucky to get 4 yards a carry. Put any RB behind the Broncos line and they'll run the ball just fine. Or maybe Sevlin Young really is a 5.1 Y/C sort of guy too...

Cedric
01-25-2008, 12:40 AM
I see you've paid close attention to the Denver Broncos the last couple of years?

Denver doesn't have a great Oline anymore. Gibbs is gone and they aren't near as dominant as before. They have also been hurt in the RB area and Travis Henry is a head case.

Yachtzee
01-25-2008, 11:58 AM
Denver doesn't have a great Oline anymore. Gibbs is gone and they aren't near as dominant as before. They have also been hurt in the RB area and Travis Henry is a head case.

I think part of the reason why Denver is having problems is because the league has at least started paying attention to the chop blocks and cut blocks the Broncos have been coaching their linemen to use. Part of their previous success was based on having undersized linemen who moved quickly and dove at players legs from the side so that they had to spend more time protecting their knees rather than focusing on the ball carrier. However, I think they did show that an effective offensive line can make a star running back out of low draft picks, even if that line was effective only because they used questionable tactics.

Cedric
01-26-2008, 03:40 AM
I think part of the reason why Denver is having problems is because the league has at least started paying attention to the chop blocks and cut blocks the Broncos have been coaching their linemen to use. Part of their previous success was based on having undersized linemen who moved quickly and dove at players legs from the side so that they had to spend more time protecting their knees rather than focusing on the ball carrier. However, I think they did show that an effective offensive line can make a star running back out of low draft picks, even if that line was effective only because they used questionable tactics.

I agree that it was a mix of questionable tactics and talent. They now have been forced to tone down those tactics and they haven't replaced the talent to the same level. That's an obvious bad mix for Denver. Tom Nalen getting old and injured often has really hurt them. Just about the same as Braham leaving crushed the Bengals. They have also been hurt by a general lack of experience, IMO. The right side of their Oline this year was Pears and Montrae Holland. Neither has great experience in a zone blocking scheme. They also were very inexperienced at C and LG this year. I think having 4 out of 5 starters with very limited experience was a major factor in some of their overall struggles.

camisadelgolf
01-31-2008, 02:48 PM
Put LT behind a bad line and he'd be lucky to get 4 yards a carry. Put any RB behind the Broncos line besides Maurice Clarett and they'll run the ball just fine. Or maybe Sevlin Young really is a 5.1 Y/C sort of guy too...