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View Full Version : Bobby Kielty may replace Coco Crisp? (Per MLBTradeRumors.com)



fewfirstchoice
02-05-2008, 11:14 PM
Open up a way for the Red Sox to trade Coco.I think if they do trade Crisp the Reds is one place he could very well end up.He would make a great CF in GABP for the next 4 or so years.

Bip Roberts
02-05-2008, 11:22 PM
If hes not injured and learns how to hit again. His .700 ops in Boston is weaksauce.

RSNtransplant
02-05-2008, 11:44 PM
Open up a way for the Red Sox to trade Coco.I think if they do trade Crisp the Reds is one place he could very well end up.He would make a great CF in GABP for the next 4 or so years.

I would love to see Coco in CF on a daily basis. The guys last year consistently(1/game) looked to get bad reads off the bat.

Lockdwn11
02-05-2008, 11:48 PM
If we can get Crisp for Freel and Coffey .....Sign me up

BEETTLEBUG
02-06-2008, 12:08 AM
SIGN ME UP TOO.

RSNtransplant
02-06-2008, 12:10 AM
If we can get Crisp for Freel and Coffey .....Sign me up

That's like saying If I can get a $5 for two $1, I'd do it.

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 12:11 AM
If we can get Crisp for Freel and Coffey .....Sign me up

Where would Freel fit on their roster?

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 12:15 AM
That's like saying If I can get a $5 for two $1, I'd do it.

I dont know if you guys realize how bad Crisp bat has been the last 2 years.

Handofdeath
02-06-2008, 01:00 AM
I dont know if you guys realize how bad Crisp bat has been the last 2 years.

Yes, but the Red Sox have also been screwing with him by not keeping him in one spot in the order. And they started that right off the bat. The Coco Crisp that played for the Red Sox is someone the Reds don't need. If you could get the one who played for the Indians, then that might be a different story. The thing is you sign him to be your leadoff guy and even in Cleveland his OBP was only .345. Other than power, there is nothing that the 2004-05 Crisp brings that Hopper doesn't do as well or better. Then, there is the matter of Jay Bruce, who very well can or will do EVERYTHING better than Crisp ever did. The only way I think the Reds should or would make the trade is if Griffey is traded/injured for the season. Otherwise there is not a starting position for him. Crisp wants to start. Why ride the bench for the Reds if you can for the Red Sox?

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 01:38 AM
Freel might not be a GG defender but he can play every position on the field and has had a OBP around .370 every year since hes gotten the at bats, and if Bruce is on the MLB roster I think Freel could be a big asset to have on the roster.

Coffey I dont want to give up on after all the work hes put in supposedly this off season.

Part of me says take the chance but the other part of me says no thanks.


Also Im adding that Crisp line from the lead off spot is .266/.314/.374 across 1048 at bats.

redsupport
02-06-2008, 01:47 AM
coffey walks plus hits per inning put him clearly in the pyromaniac squad along with Brad Pennington and Rick Krivda

Gunner44
02-06-2008, 01:49 AM
i want no part of coco crisp

AmarilloRed
02-06-2008, 01:50 AM
It may be difficult to trade Freel, as he is coming off an injury and has seen his production drop. It will not hurt to talk to Boston, however.

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 01:56 AM
It may be difficult to trade Freel, as he is coming off an injury and has seen his production drop. It will not hurt to talk to Boston, however.

Boston is probably saying the same thing right now.

NorrisHopper30
02-06-2008, 09:38 AM
Crisp is overrated, i'd rather keep Coffey to see how much he's improved.

RSNtransplant
02-06-2008, 10:41 AM
When you consider the defense Coco offers and factor in him going from tougher league(and division), not to mention starting/playing on two of the better teams in the League, to weaker league, weakest division, weaker team, he's a better option than Freel/Hopper. Don't overvalue your players b/c they are your players. Freel and Hopper would not start/platoon on most mlb team, Coco would. No one is going to trade for Freel or Hopper, teams will trade for Coco. His value is in his defense.

redhawk61
02-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Lets hope that Roenick dominates at ST so that we can trade coffey and have Roenick fill his spot.

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 11:47 AM
When you consider the defense Coco offers and factor in him going from tougher league(and division), not to mention starting/playing on two of the better teams in the League, to weaker league, weakest division, weaker team, he's a better option than Freel/Hopper. Don't overvalue your players b/c they are your players. Freel and Hopper would not start/platoon on most mlb team, Coco would. No one is going to trade for Freel or Hopper, teams will trade for Coco. His value is in his defense.

I would think Cocos numbers would have sky rocketted in Boston in that line up and in that park.

Im not over valuing Freel or Hopper, but if Bruce is our starting CF out of spring Coco isnt worth much at all.

redsupport
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
coffey will be worse there is no guarantee that he will improve

BLEEDS
02-06-2008, 01:38 PM
Coco would be a GREAT pick-up, and would allow us to keep Bruce in AAA, at least for awhile.

It would be 2009 and beyond that it would pay most dividends.

An OF from L to R of Dunn, Crisp, and Bruce would be VERY NICE for ~4+ years...

Trading any wasteful fodder like Freel and/or Hopper for Crisp would be sweet gravy...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 01:40 PM
Cocos last 2 years could be considered just as much wasteful fodder and he will have to start.

RSNtransplant
02-06-2008, 02:19 PM
I would think Cocos numbers would have sky rocketted in Boston in that line up and in that park.

Im not over valuing Freel or Hopper, but if Bruce is our starting CF out of spring Coco isnt worth much at all.

If Bruce is on the 25 man roster on Opening Day, he ought to be playing one of the corner positions. He won't be playing in Cincy OD, but if he's called up mid season and Coco is around, then he can fill a hole created @ a corner OF position created by trade or injury.

RSNtransplant
02-06-2008, 02:22 PM
Cocos last 2 years could be considered just as much wasteful fodder and he will have to start.

The defense has not been fodder the last two years. He is an asset with the glove the Reds do not have, that is where Coco separates himself from current options.

OUReds
02-06-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't view having a defensive player like Crisp in center field the next two years as wasteful fodder. With Dunn and Griffey on the corners this year and a potentially young pitching staff, I view it as a necessity.

Crisp also allows Bruce to ease his way into major league life. It not only gives him a few more AAA at bats, it lets him play his natural OF position this year (after the inevitable Griffey injury) and next.

The bat has been terrible the last two years obviously, but the switch to GAB and the NL Central from the AL East might remind him how to OPS around .800 as he has done in the past.

BLEEDS
02-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Yes, Crisp's worst years are comparable to Ryan Freel's best.

He'd be a better spend of salary than Freel, and his Defense would be MORE than worth the difference.

He doesn't NEED to start, not in 2008 anyway, and IFF he had to he could start in CF, and Bruce could start the season in AAA.

Like I said, it would be 2009 and beyond where it would pay dividends.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 03:05 PM
If Crisp is on the roster and hes not starting then why would you want him over Freel? He makes more money plays less positions and has had a .650ish OPS away from Boston.

Bring up Dickerson and save the 3.5 million if you want a defensive replacement.

BLEEDS
02-06-2008, 03:22 PM
If Crisp is on the roster and hes not starting then why would you want him over Freel? He makes more money plays less positions and has had a .650ish OPS away from Boston.

Bring up Dickerson and save the 3.5 million if you want a defensive replacement.

The scenario here is possibly trading Freel for Crisp. No Brainer.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 03:24 PM
The scenario here is possibly trading Freel for Crisp. No Brainer.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I still fail to see why its a no brainer.

BLEEDS
02-06-2008, 04:28 PM
I still fail to see why its a no brainer.

Well, it's not unlike you to stick to your minority guns and give no credence to the majority who have laid out the opinions and support to their argument.

Freel, Hopper and 60% of our starting rotation having spent time in the minors last year will lead us into the playoffs in 2008, we get it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-06-2008, 04:31 PM
What opinions? That he used to be a good hitter for 1 year in Cleveland?

He plays good D, cant hit and only plays 1 position and has said he will not be happy not starting. Sorry if I think the guy who hits better plays every position on the field and is cheaper is a better use of a roster spot.

bounty37h
02-06-2008, 04:32 PM
coffey will be worse there is no guarantee that he will improve

So, your saying you guarantee he will be worse then?

flash
02-08-2008, 04:36 PM
Saying that Hopper would not start on most other teams in baseball is just wrong. He would probably start for the Cubs, Astros, Braves, and Cards automatically. Those are just the teams I looked at the depth chart. Also the complaint that he does not walk enough is just plain wrong also. He walked last year 20 times in 140 plate appearances. That is once every seven ab's Dunn walked 101 times in 623 plate appearances that is once every 6.22 plate appearances. Not a big difference.

RSNtransplant
02-08-2008, 05:04 PM
Saying that Hopper would not start on most other teams in baseball is just wrong. He would probably start for the Cubs, Astros, Braves, and Cards automatically. Those are just the teams I looked at the depth chart. Also the complaint that he does not walk enough is just plain wrong also. He walked last year 20 times in 140 plate appearances. That is once every seven ab's Dunn walked 101 times in 623 plate appearances that is once every 6.22 plate appearances. Not a big difference.

Two of those teams just lost franchise CF, so it sounds like you are handpicking your sample. But of the four you mention, hopper doesn't start over Pie in ChC, 23 year old minor leaguers get more chances than 28 year old minor leaguers. He doesn't start over Kotsay in ATL, o/w ATL would have traded for Hopper. Thats 50 percent, of your hand selected teams that you think make your argument that Hopper doesn't start over. He also sits in: LAA, TOR, MILW, ARI, LAD, SF, CLEV, SEA, FLA, NYM, SD, PHIL, TEX!!!, TB, BOS, KC, DET, MIN, CHW, NYY. That's 20 of 26 teams you didn't mention, that is most teams.

mlbfan30
02-08-2008, 06:01 PM
Two of those teams just lost franchise CF, so it sounds like you are handpicking your sample. But of the four you mention, hopper doesn't start over Pie in ChC, 23 year old minor leaguers get more chances than 28 year old minor leaguers. He doesn't start over Kotsay in ATL, o/w ATL would have traded for Hopper. Thats 50 percent, of your hand selected teams that you think make your argument that Hopper doesn't start over. He also sits in: LAA, TOR, MILW, ARI, LAD, SF, CLEV, SEA, FLA, NYM, SD, PHIL, TEX!!!, TB, BOS, KC, DET, MIN, CHW, NYY. That's 20 of 26 teams you didn't mention, that is most teams.

I'll also add that Hopper doesn't start over Bourn. Bourn not only is a better defender and if faster, he can walk.
Also Hopper doesn't start over Rasmus in STL. It's the same situation with Bruce. Rasmus is considered the #2 hitting prospect.

The ONLY team Hopper would start is in Florida, and thats mainly because its a team full of replacements. Maybin isn't ready yet, but once he is, he'd easily start over Hopper.
San Diego is also a possibility, but they have no one else that's a decent defensive CF.

mlbfan30
02-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Saying that Hopper would not start on most other teams in baseball is just wrong. He would probably start for the Cubs, Astros, Braves, and Cards automatically. Those are just the teams I looked at the depth chart. Also the complaint that he does not walk enough is just plain wrong also. He walked last year 20 times in 140 plate appearances. That is once every seven ab's Dunn walked 101 times in 623 plate appearances that is once every 6.22 plate appearances. Not a big difference.

Not only does this prove you can't read, but it also proves you don't watch the Reds. ANYONE WATCHING THE REDS WOULD VISUALLY SEE DUNN WALKING A LOT MORE THAN HOPPER.

Hopper had 335 PA, and 20 BB. He did NOT have 140PA.
That's walking once per 16.75 PA. Do you know how bad that is? Especially for a "leadoff" hitter.

Handofdeath
02-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Not only does this prove you can't read, but it also proves you don't watch the Reds. ANYONE WATCHING THE REDS WOULD VISUALLY SEE DUNN WALKING A LOT MORE THAN HOPPER.

Hopper had 335 PA, and 20 BB. He did NOT have 140PA.
That's walking once per 16.75 PA. Do you know how bad that is? Especially for a "leadoff" hitter.

Norris Hopper 2007 .371 OBP

According to Baseball Reference, among current players who have at least 3,000 plate appearances, a career OBP of .371 would rank you in the Top 30 overall.

Three very important numbers are used often in deciding the effectiveness of an offensive player in baseball. Those numbers are AVG, OBP, and SLG. Very often Adam Dunn is derided by people for his low batting average. I am among them at times. Other people point out that he has a high OBP and SLG and so he is an effective hitter. I will not beat a dead horse by discussing his low batting average and his great ability to take a walk. That is not my intention. Those who champion Dunn have a very valid reason to do so as it is Adam Dunn's job as a middle of the order hitter to hit with power. He does so very well as his SLG numbers show and combine that with his OBP numbers, which are helped very much by walks, and you have a good OPS which is an effective way to measure a hitter. Especially someone considered important enough to a team to bat in the middle of the order. But would he be as effective a player if his OBP and SLG numbers were switched around but the OPS numbers were the same? No, because as a middle of the order hitter his job is to hit with power because in doing so he gives his team a better chance of scoring and winning. Adam Dunn's effectiveness is best measured with his SLG which is very good.

Now, Norris Hopper's job as a leadoff hitter is to get on base. When he does so he gives the middle of the order hitters, like Dunn, an opportunity to hit him in. Which, as said before, gives his team a better chance to score and win. His AVG and OBP numbers are very good but his SLG is not. Does the low SLG number decrease his effectiveness? As a leadoff hitter, the answer is no. His job is to get on base, which he has done very well. His OBP numbers show you that. Does the fact that his OBP is AVG driven mean anything ? It means as much as the fact that Dunn's OBP is mainly walk driven. Neither fact matters as much as the fact that both are doing their jobs. This is evidenced by Dunn's high SLG and Hopper's OBP. It matters not how they got there, so long as they get there. The fact that one player takes a walk often and another does not does not change this one fact. Hopper is getting on base and Dunn is hitting with power. They are both doing their jobs. How they do so matters not one iota.

RSNtransplant
02-08-2008, 08:35 PM
I'll also add that Hopper doesn't start over Bourn. Bourn not only is a better defender and if faster, he can walk.
Also Hopper doesn't start over Rasmus in STL. It's the same situation with Bruce. Rasmus is considered the #2 hitting prospect.

The ONLY team Hopper would start is in Florida, and thats mainly because its a team full of replacements. Maybin isn't ready yet, but once he is, he'd easily start over Hopper.
San Diego is also a possibility, but they have no one else that's a decent defensive CF.

SD went out and got Jim Edmonds, Hopper wouldn't start over him. I'll stick with Maybin in FLA, as they notoriously start guys who aren't ready, yet overperform. I'd add BALT to the list as well, since they didn't trade Bedard for Hopper, so Jones would start CF over him or push Markakis to CF, and they can hide a defensive liability who can slug in the last corner OF spot.

mlbfan30
02-08-2008, 08:57 PM
SD went out and got Jim Edmonds, Hopper wouldn't start over him. I'll stick with Maybin in FLA, as they notoriously start guys who aren't ready, yet overperform. I'd add BALT to the list as well, since they didn't trade Bedard for Hopper, so Jones would start CF over him or push Markakis to CF, and they can hide a defensive liability who can slug in the last corner OF spot.

I totally forgot about Edmonds, which is very unlike me. Even though Maybe is a top prospect, he's only had a couple at bats over A. Unlike Rasmus, Bruce, Jones... Maybin has never been to AAA, and was rushed to the majors and immensely struggled.



Hopper has a career minor league AVG at .289. The problem is that Hopper's AVG is mainly infield hit driven (similar to Maybin), and when his BABIP starts to regress to the mean, he will be a horrible player because his only skill will be nullified. BABIPs of .400 is not sustainable everyyear. His minor league AVG is below .290. You can go ahead and take 300 AB as you main source of info, but sample size matters. Hopper might be a Freddy Sanchez type hitter at best, and that's assuming he isn't a complete fluke. Keppinger does have a good BA, but he's always had a high BA in the minors. He also has respectable BB rates.

The point is, when hitters fail or struggle, walks help limit the damage. But when a hitter can't walk, especially in the leadoff role, and relies on luck. Thats just a bad situation waiting to happen

SMcGavin
02-08-2008, 10:04 PM
Norris Hopper 2007 .371 OBP

According to Baseball Reference, among current players who have at least 3,000 plate appearances, a career OBP of .371 would rank you in the Top 30 overall.


Yea, and even with that miraculous AVG he posted his OPS+ was still 98. His career minor league OBP is .341. Career minor league OPS .678. I'm going to trust the 3000+ minor league ABs before I go nuts over a half-season of average hitting.

Back to the topic of this thread, Crisp. With the way he's played in Boston I don't know how you can give him playing time over Bruce this year. Crisp is someone who I'd like to take a chance on next year, playing CF once Griffey is gone and Bruce goes to RF. I don't know if he fits in right now though other than as a 4th OF. And for goodness sakes don't let him anywhere near the leadoff spot.

Handofdeath
02-09-2008, 12:48 PM
Yea, and even with that miraculous AVG he posted his OPS+ was still 98. His career minor league OBP is .341. Career minor league OPS .678. I'm going to trust the 3000+ minor league ABs before I go nuts over a half-season of average hitting

And an OPS+ of 100 is considered average. Which means Hopper, who has zero power, gets on base enough to be considered pretty much an average hitter. I loved your "miraculous" statement about last years average. I guess it was miraclous in 2006 when he hit .359 the year before in his short time with the Reds after hitting .347 that season in Louisville in 383 AAA at bats. What you should trust, instead of the "3000+minor league AB's", is that since Hopper came into the Reds organization in 2005 he's played in 231 minor league games and had 912 AB's. His career AVG in the Reds minor league system is .323. I hate to break to you and others but Hopper is a legitimate hitter. The last three seasons prove it.

TheBigLebowski
02-09-2008, 02:16 PM
I'd much rather have Freel than Crisp. Reds' fans disdain for Freel is something I just don't understand.

If Crisp was on the Reds and Freel was on the Sox, 7 out of 10 Reds fans would be chomping at the bit to package Crisp with Coffey for Ryan. Grass is always greener..

RSNtransplant
02-09-2008, 03:29 PM
I'd much rather have Freel than Crisp. Reds' fans disdain for Freel is something I just don't understand.

If Crisp was on the Reds and Freel was on the Sox, 7 out of 10 Reds fans would be chomping at the bit to package Crisp with Coffey for Ryan. Grass is always greener..

If Freel was on the Sox there would be nothing to trade, b/c they would not have extended him and he would have been cut. If Coco was with the Reds we wouldn't be looking for a legit CF.

Bip Roberts
02-09-2008, 03:52 PM
People would be bashing Coco pretty hard if he put in the last 2 years in cincy instead of boston.

RSNtransplant
02-09-2008, 07:24 PM
People would be bashing Coco pretty hard if he put in the last 2 years in cincy instead of boston.

No they'd be talking about how they should trade him for some #3 SP, b/c Jay Bruce with zero mlb ABs is a better option in CF.

Bip Roberts
02-09-2008, 07:33 PM
No they'd be talking about how they should trade him for some #3 SP, b/c Jay Bruce with zero mlb ABs is a better option in CF.

If the sox could get a #3 for Coco they would have already though.

mlbfan30
02-10-2008, 01:48 AM
Crisp is better than Freel.

At the very best, Freel is 1 win better offensively per season, but that's hard to assume. That would be taking Freels best season, and Crisps worst. In their careers Freel has been worth 0.5 Wins better offensively. So it's basically a wash in reality, because aging will affect Freel going into age 32 season, but not as much Crisp going into age 28 season.

On defense Crisp is clearly better. Crisp is easily worth +1 win on defense over Freel, and is a top 5 CF in MLB. And that's a lower limit. Freel is not as good as most people think, although he's not bad. Another factor that isn't included in fielding metrics is that Freel is more of an injury risk towards other players. Defense is always undervalued in the FA market.

RSNtransplant
02-10-2008, 02:18 AM
If the sox could get a #3 for Coco they would have already though.

Your premise was if Coco had been in Cincy last two years, I was not saying the Sox think they can get a #3 for Coco. My statement was that Cincy fans would be looking for a #3 for Coco had he been here, in addition too or as an alternative to bashing him.

Bip Roberts
02-10-2008, 02:30 AM
Your premise was if Coco had been in Cincy last two years, I was not saying the Sox think they can get a #3 for Coco. My statement was that Cincy fans would be looking for a #3 for Coco had he been here, in addition too or as an alternative to bashing him.
We would still bash him :laugh:

SMcGavin
02-10-2008, 09:35 PM
And an OPS+ of 100 is considered average. Which means Hopper, who has zero power, gets on base enough to be considered pretty much an average hitter. I loved your "miraculous" statement about last years average. I guess it was miraclous in 2006 when he hit .359 the year before in his short time with the Reds after hitting .347 that season in Louisville in 383 AAA at bats. What you should trust, instead of the "3000+minor league AB's", is that since Hopper came into the Reds organization in 2005 he's played in 231 minor league games and had 912 AB's. His career AVG in the Reds minor league system is .323. I hate to break to you and others but Hopper is a legitimate hitter. The last three seasons prove it.


His OPS+ last year was actually 94, I must have misread it before. So you say Hopper has a .323 average in the minor leagues. The thing is, if he has a .323 average this year for the Reds, he's still going to be a below average hitter. To become average he's gonna need to either hit .340 or suddenly develop power. The fact that he can hit for a high batting average in his mid/late 20s in AAA doesn't change the player he is. In 2005 he had a .722 OPS in AA. In 2006 he had a .770 OPS in AAA. What exactly did those years prove?

I would absolutely love for Hopper to hit .370, win the batting title, and become a CF mainstay. I'd also love for him to repeat last season and be a solid 4th outfielder. But I'm a realist, and if I was running the Reds organization you can bet I wouldn't be going into 2008 with my plan counting on either of those things happening.